On this weeks show I am joined by Dr Jim Grubman. Jim spoke with us last year in a really popular episode and I am sure that this episode will be equally popular.

We are discussing the Ten Domains of Family Wealth. This is a piece of thought leadership from The Ultra High Net Worth Institute that looks at all of the various domains that families with wealth need to focus on and highlights to advisers that their roles have changed.

If you want to find out more about The UHNW Institute you can visit their site here: www.uhnwinstitute.org

If you want to learn more about Jim and his work you can visit: www.jamesgrubman.com

Work With Russ

If what I have spoken about in the show resonates and you want to discuss how I can help you and your family business drop me an email: russ@familybusinesspartnership.com or head over to www.familybusinesspartnership.com

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Hello, and welcome to this week's show.

I am absolutely delighted to be joined by Dr.

Jim grew up in again, uh, on the show, um, for those of you that are longer-term

listeners, you will remember Jim from an episode last year where we talked

about successful transitions in a family business, and it became, I think it was

about four months to go in the year.

And it became the second, most listened to episode, um, of the whole of 2020.

Um, so absolutely no pressure on us today into, uh,

no pressure

at all.

Um, but firstly, welcome back to the show.

Great to have you back with

us.

Yes, it's really great to be here.

Um, and I look forward to having another wonderful conversation with

you so that we can talk about some of the new things that are happening.

Absolutely.

And for those that may have missed last year's show, perhaps give

them a little bit of an overview of, um, your role, what you do.

And, uh, we can then get into the detail of what we're going to talk about today.

Sure.

Um, I, uh, have been a family wealth consultant and family business consultant

for going on more than two decades now.

Um, and, um, I work with families, maybe North America, but also globally.

And you know, my work with my wonderful colleague, Dennis Chaffey

on cross-cultural sorts of things.

Um, Uh, what we're talking about today is really to some new roles and work

that I have whereabouts last year and a half or two years, I am working with the

ultra high net worth Institute, a think tank, uh, that is devoted to developing

resources and providing information to ultra high net worth families.

In a very, uh, unbiased conflict-free objective sort of way, um, that they

have been asking for for a long time.

And in that role, I'm the chair of the content and curriculum committee in

developing some of the thought leadership that the innocence it is developing.

And one of the.

Pieces of thought leadership is what we are going to be discussing today.

And it is, they tend to means of family wealth and we'll get into some

specifics around those, um, as we progress through our conversation.

But in terms of, um, uh, kind of an overview for the audience, um, just to,

to point out at this stage in the show notes for this show, There will be a

graphic that highlights the diagram that, um, Jim and I will be talking about.

I had to Google this before we had a chat, Jim, but, uh, nine shape, uh,

sorry, a nine, um, edge shape, uh, is called a . Um, so another goal.

Yeah.

So it's a non gun we're going to be talking about.

Well, it's a nine sided shape.

Um, and it represents a really interesting, um, piece of thought

leadership that, that is highlighted on the 10 domains of family wealth.

So now we know it's a non-negotiable what else can we tell our audience

around the 10 domains of family

wealth?

Well, first of all, Russ says brilliant.

And, um, uh, I think I vaguely had remembered there was a name for a

nine edged shape of a non a gun, but now that you've done that, I

will definitely keep that in mind and, and make reference to it.

And with the, uh, 10th domain at the center in a circle.

So we have to coin a term for a nonnegotiable, with a circle in the

somehow, um, Well, I think, uh, it relates to the purpose and mission of

the Institute in providing information.

Um, because many families, there was a conference as you know, in late

2018, uh, in which families had the opportunity to talk about what they

really wanted and needed in their lives with their wealth advisors.

And they really were very frustrated.

They wanted information that they could trust that was not linked to what a

particular advisory firm, uh, was selling or pushing or saying what was important.

They wanted something oriented to families that was independent

of the, uh, advisory system.

So as we began to think about and consider what content we were going to

develop, I actually asked one of those basic questions, um, uh, that I was

scratching my head over and I put out to the other leaders and the think tank.

And I said, well, if we're going to be talking about what is important

to families of wealth, that the ultra high net worth, uh, level.

What are we going to be talking about?

What is the landscape that families live in when you have

ultra high net worth wealth?

And I remember it sort of stopped the conversation as you can imagine.

Cause it's like, well, you know, it's one of those things that everybody

knows about it, but nobody defines it.

And, um, You know, one person said, well, we looked at that a couple

years ago and came up with like 200 and something different areas.

And I thought, well, that's, that's not a great organization.

Um, so we began a process of distilling down and distilling down,

putting our heads together, having conversations of, um, what are the main.

Domains or areas that if you have significant wealth, these are the areas

of your life that are your needs and your concerns, whether or not the particular

firm you're with is providing those.

But, you know, for you as a family, what are your needs?

And it proved to be a very helpful process because it distilled down and

we came to the 10 domains of which nine.

Uh, right around the circle in the non-UK on and off to resist my temptation

to use a British accent on that.

Um, Uh, are the content domains and then at the center, which we will talk about

is why that's important is, uh, a process domain, or what often is called practice

management or how services are delivered.

Um, and, uh, since this has rolled out in the past year or so, it actually

has proven pretty robust and we're pretty happy with its development.

Absolutely.

And I think as well, what's really key to this is again for those that

are listening head over to fanbase podcast.com four slash 10 dash domains.

And the diagram that we're talking about will be on there in the show

notes, but what this does beautifully, I think in my view is it, it creates

something that is both broad in the sense of it covers everything that.

Uh, within the sort of world of family wealth, but it breaks it down into

manageable chunks in a sense, so that it kind of segregates things really well.

But centered around that advisor client relationship.

And I think that's a really important element of it is that there are

content domains, which are where those different subject matters sit.

And within each of those domains, there is a huge amount of detail and

depth that that can exist beyond that.

But it's then centered around that process of service delivery and what

us as advisors as, uh, as practitioners that the importance for me as well is

that it highlights areas where I'm not an expert in, uh, I'm resisting the

urge to say philanthropy, just because it's a word I really struggled with.

It has been highlighted on many shows that I struggle with the

pronunciation of philanthropy.

So I practice it as often as I can.

But because I'm not an, an expert in that area, it could be tempting for me to go,

well, let's not worry about that side of it because it's not my role, but by

understanding these domains, actually for me, it's a call to action to say, I need

to bring others into that relationship to talk about something that is.

Um, their level of their area of expertise here, because it's such an important

element of the overall picture, but to echo with what you're seeing as

well, very much so Russ, and you make a great point there, which is very

often when advisors think of what are we going to offer in the firm?

What do we know how to do?

Um, what do families need?

They.

Very often see it through the lens of themselves.

And as you said, it's like, if, if I were a, say a financial advisor, uh, and nobody

in the firm was, uh, very interested in or a specialist in philanthropy.

It would be very easy for us to say, well, you know, um, the

families, we can get that elsewhere.

We don't really know much about it.

We're not going to offer it.

If they ask we'll refer them to somebody, maybe we need a short

list of, you know, favored referral sources, but not our business.

And that phrase often comes up, particularly when you get to

things like family dynamics or governance, it's not our business.

And so this is actually what families have been.

Concerned about and complaining about which is, look, you may

think it's not your business.

You may not be very good at it.

You may not have anybody who knows about it, but we still have needs about it.

You know, it's about us.

It's not about you.

Um, and so the 10 domains model is unique in that it is completely agnostic.

Oh, the practitioner skills or whatever, in terms of what they want to offer, it is

totally focused on the family's needs and the landscape of family wealth so that the

family can say, we need help in this area.

This is something we want to do, whether or not you are.

Helping us with it, you know, to the firm.

It also, uh, is becoming a really good guide for families

to ask their firms okay.

Of these things here.

Tell us your expertise, what you offer and what you're going to do for us.

So it's beginning to turn the tables a little bit.

Yeah,

absolutely.

And we've mentioned that the advisor client relationship sits

in the middle of the diagram.

If we just list off the, um, 10 or the nine other sort of content domains,

just to give people an overview.

So starting with integrated financial management estate planning and legal

issues and risk management, and that sits in a sector that is known as

Wharf, wealth creation and stewardship.

You then have a cultivation of family capital.

Um, and, uh, the three elements in there are governance and

decision-making leadership and transition planning, learning

development, and the rising generation.

And then finally we have a human advancement, uh, sector, which covers

family dynamics, health and wellbeing.

And social impact and my favorite word, philanthropy I land.

Yes.

The things I notice about this as well is when we're talking about family

wealth, it's very easy to get lost in just the financial aspect of that.

And yet, in reality, I know that the financial aid aspect of it seeps

into other areas on this, but there's one of those content domains, which

is integrated financial management.

But again, it highlights that actually for families with wealth, that there

is a whole raft of challenges that they will need help and support

with away from simply managing.

I say simply as if it's absolutely yes, but away from managing

the wealth of the family.

And I that's, I think is the attractiveness of this model, as

well as the it's so broad around, you know, moving away from just

talking about the money all the time.

Well, it's funny, Russ, you remind me of something that goes way back to my days

in healthcare, uh, as a psychologist and I specialized in medically related

and brain-related sorts of things.

There is a, um, uh, image and a teaching tool in neurology called the homunculus.

Forward to, to look up in the dictionary.

The homonculus is a tiny image of a person, but it is not proportional

to, you know, a normal person.

And it has to do with an area in the brain where the brain receives

information, sensory information from different parts of the body.

The homonculus is sized according to the sensory input to the brain from that area.

So it actually has a huge head, very large tongue.

Because we actually get tremendous amounts of information from the tongue

in terms of taste and sensation the nose, the ears, and proportionally the body.

And, uh, and if you look at like hands and feet are larger than the main

body, The homonculus reflects how much the brain is paying attention

to information from that area.

It's interesting to look that up.

And what you were talking about is in a sense, traditionally, in wealth

management, if we drew a homonculus of the domains of family wealth,

wealth management would be huge.

It would be overwhelming and there'd be all sorts of stuff there.

And it's attention to be paid.

Um, But in reality, you know, what we did is we sized all nine content

sectors, equivalent, the same size.

And, uh, we also put that advisor client relationship at the center.

In a significant size and not the usual throw away line about, well,

those are the soft skills and, you know, you have to have good bedside

manner and working with clients and now let's get back to the good stuff.

Um, so you're absolutely right.

Integrated financial management.

Essentially rules the roost, uh, in wealth management, but to the think tank to

the Institute, it is certainly a crucial domain, but it is proportional in its

place that it is a, the money is not the total focus, that there are many other

things when you have significant wealth.

And so we developed a model.

That even visually helps put that in context.

Yeah.

And did you have sort of practical examples of where that can be utilized?

Because again, underneath each of these content domains, there's a huge amount of.

Other detailing and, um, other, um, kind of issues and challenges that

are being faced within those segments.

But do you have practical examples of where this is being utilized in

either from a family perspective or from a practitioner perspective?

What's interesting.

Russ is, uh, I'm getting more and more examples of that as time goes on.

And let me tell you about one recently that came up in conversation with, um,

each of the domains has a domain chair who's sort of, you know, responsible

or an expert in that domain, along with, um, uh, I'm domain chair for

the advisor client relationship.

So there are nine other domain chairs and I was speaking with a

wonderful colleague, Stacy, all red.

Uh, in the U S who, um, uh, is part of the team.

And we were talking about something that has become prominent

with COVID in the last year.

And that is the issue that, you know, people have realized that, um, the

phrase about, well, you know, we could hit by a bus next week, extra.

We could get hit by a virus next week and some bad things could happen.

And so planning for continuity, um, issues of incapacity, um, uh, the various sorts

of things that we've always talked about.

This is now being revived.

Many families want to know, gee, we need to accelerate and make sure

we have all those things in place.

As we were kind of noodling together in a conversation about how to organize,

helping families understand the many areas and the roles and relationships

and responsibilities that they have.

We did dawned on us that actually you could use the 10 domains

as the organizing principle.

And we began to go around and look at that.

Um, and just to kind of walk through some of that.

You know, certainly in integrated financial management, there are many

things around making sure assets are titled correctly, that if you, you know,

drop dead next week, that there's going to be a good continuity in how that happens.

Um, financial planning and transfer, um, uh, even in the U S there are new

compliance regulation issues around advisors talking to clients about.

Uh, if they became incapacitated and subject to undue, influence

advisers are authorized to reach out and talk to somebody about that.

So there's a whole slew of legal documents to maintain financial

continuity in estate planning and legal, you know, lasting powers of attorney,

um, successor, trustee, designation, wills, and the me in the whole issue

of estate planning and risk management.

Um, things ranging from insurance and risk management to cyber security

and maintaining a digital continuity.

If you nobody can access your passwords.

What are you going to do in governance?

And decision-making, if you have a position within the family enterprise,

in family leadership around the family council, and something happens to

you, are there plans for, uh, your replacement and have things been

written into the family constitution related to ensuring continuity?

In leadership and transition planning.

I mean, we could go around all the different domains.

Um, this years ago, Bonnie, um, uh, Brown Hartley wrote a book about having

a fire drill in the family enterprise.

And, uh, we're sort of talking about the same thing now.

Yeah.

Family dynamics, health and wellbeing, social impact from that.

If you have a position on the foundation board, For the family's philanthropy

have there been plans made for what happens if you're not there.

And finally, in the advisor client relationship, are you the quote unquote

primary client, or if something happens to you, does your advisor, have they

ever met your spouse or your children?

Well, and if we turn it around the other way, has your spouse or your

children ever met your advisor?

Because if something happens to you, they need to have a relationship with

somebody that they trust and whatever.

And so really it's from the family's perspective, uh, maintaining

continuity with the people who are responsible for their landscape.

Yeah.

So organizing this seemingly simple but complex array of things for

continuity and longevity by the 10 domains, all of a sudden, you know, it

provides a really good organization.

Yeah.

And it takes something that can be really intimidating and.

Um, there's, uh, a phrase, I don't know how well known it is.

I use it all the time, but you can only an elephant one bite at a time.

It kind of breaks down the huge kind of complexity.

And where do I start with this stuff into?

Well, okay.

Let's start with integrated financial management.

There's work around that.

And I think that's really beneficial from a family perspective,

but also as a practitioner.

If you're dealing with families and your, perhaps your lane is integrated

financial management and you do all that you can in that, um, domain to be

effective and be impactful with, with what you're doing from let's take the

continuity and longevity side of it.

It's highlighting as well to you as a practitioner.

There's other elements there's knock-on impact.

So all of this in the work that I'm doing and having that awareness of what may have

been, I'm kind of aware that philanthropy exists, but it's not my area of.

Um, expertise, but now I know that in there.

Oh, I need to make sure that my clients are receiving really strong advice

on all of these domains for me as well, that opens the door to a much

more collaborative working practice.

If you'd like, in terms of how professionals, um, work with each other.

When they have clients that are, you say that the premise and the basis of

this discussion and the 10 domains is from feedback from families that have

felt frustrated that all of this is not dealt with by their advisory teams.

I think I'm, I might be wrong, but it's probably impractical for everything within

the tender minutes to be dealt with by.

One from, um, certainly probably not by one person.

And that, that would be quite high on the risk management scale.

If one person was looking after everything on this side of it.

Um, but, but in that sense, does it open the door to more collaborative working?

Is that sort of, uh, positive by-product of organizing things in this way?

Absolutely.

Russ you've put your finger on probably one of the most

important things about this model.

First of all it, no longer allows advisors to say not my job, not my business.

You can say, this is my domain.

But it forces all the advisors to realize they are part of a team.

Um, and that team may or may not be sitting around the table,

but the family needs a team in all of the domains in some way.

And so you are providing a slice of the pie, um, but you cannot say the

rest of the pie doesn't exist or I'm not going to pay attention to it.

It also shifts.

Um, from the idea of the concept that has rained for a long time about, well,

who's the most trusted advisor and in a certain way, you know, with the advisor

client relationship at the center, there may be room for a quarterback or somebody

who has some of those qualities, but the integrated collaborative approach.

Uh, says that, um, you need a team, they must be collaborating well.

And that the family, that basically, if nobody's doing that, it's

not that it's not happening.

It defaults to the family has to do it.

We actually, um, we are beginning to put out some articles and new created content

along the lines of some of these areas.

And, um, we actually.

Uh, we just put out one from, uh, Joe Calabrese, who is one of the members

of the think tank around the integrated nature and the challenges as well as

the advantages of families getting collaborative, integrated advice.

And we, we actually just putting that article out.

Um, so it really speaks to what you just described, that the day of a collaborative

team, his coming more and more.

Mm.

Yeah, I agree.

And one or the other, um, perhaps, um, benefits of, uh, uh, looking at this

model and operating under this model is there may be people in our audience

who are listening to saying, well, I don't work in that ultra high net worth

space, or I don't live in that ultra high net worth space, but it's a bit

like when you see the, um, technological advances on the formula one car.

It's not long before they start to transition down to the cars that we buy.

Um, particularly with like driving positions, it was something where

an individual driving position and a formula one car, and all of a sudden it

comes down to that in, in, in the road cars that we buy the same can be said

of this model concept that it's, it is built by, uh, uh, um, we're talking

about it in the context of the ultra high net worth market, but actually.

It's probably applicable , to most people.

Well, uh, again, Russ, you were on the right track with that.

And, um, that was a question we had relatively early on, which is, well,

what about other levels of wealth?

And, uh, again, the robustness of the model and the way it explains things,

uh, has proven itself in that once we, we had discussion about this.

Well, we realized is all the domains exist at all levels of wealth from the

mass affluent level, under a million, uh, up through ultra high net worth.

What differs is the complexity?

Within each domain, the amount to be done and the nature of what families need.

If you have a million and a half dollars, you know, you have a need for financial

management, estate planning and legal issues, risk management and insurance.

Uh, decision-making within the family, family dynamics,

health and wellbeing on and on.

And you certainly have an advisor, client relationship.

With whoever you are working with, it's just that there may be less to deal with.

The issues may be somewhat simpler.

Um, but the domains are all there.

They're just perhaps a little simpler, thinner, or, or, uh, easier to address.

Fantastic.

You mentioned in your introduction, your work with, um, Dennis Jaffe

on cross cultures and, um, that, that kind of a line of, of, of

your work, how did the 10 domains.

Translate when we start talking about different cultures, different religions,

different, um, sort of areas around the world where there's kind of where

we're both in Western society, quite an individualistic society, but there's

obviously other cultures that, that, um, that have these challenges as well.

Did the domains translate across those?

They absolutely do Russ.

That, that was one of the things we were committed to right from the

beginning, which is this was going to be a global model and a cultural model.

Um, I'm thinking in particular of a family that, uh, had been working

with recently that, um, has family members based from Asia to Latin

America, um, Southern Europe, the UK, uh, and India, and as, uh, I have

been working with them and developing them because they have family members.

Who are dispersed throughout the world, but they get together, uh, in family

meetings and, uh, family assemblies.

And one of the things that they're trying to do is to figure out governance.

They are trying to figure out, um, there's some new initiatives

around the family foundation.

There are some intricacies around risk management and, uh, you know,

legal issues, cross jurisdictions.

There are also, uh, because of the heritage of the family.

Originally, there are religious influences, uh, related to, um,

the wealth creating generation.

Uh, this family is now in a G4 actually.

And we talked about the 10 domains and very quickly, they were able to identify

in a meeting their needs and their perspectives across all 10 of the domains.

And one of the things, interestingly that they zeroed in on was the

advisor client relationship, which of course was dear to my heart.

So I was very happy about that.

Um, Because one of the things that they, uh, jumped to was having a conversation

that they had not had for 30 years in which they talked about, which of

their many advisory teams they felt comfortable with in the current generation

and which they felt were holdovers.

From the previous generation that did not understand the complexity and

cross-cultural nature of the family nearly as well, this family, um, they had a

family office, a single family office, but as with many family offices, particularly

around the world, they had, uh, you know, aggregation of multiple other advisors and

completely unexpectedly in the meeting.

They went to, you know, we should be really looking at our

advisor client relationships.

And by the end they charged their family office with beginning to, um, do a

little, uh, weeding out and accelerating.

Um, and it was probably one of the most satisfying and, uh, yet surprising

aspects that came out of the meeting.

Hmm.

Fantastic.

Now highlights as well.

The point that you made as you were introducing the.

Uh, subject matter that the 10 domains and that, uh, initially it was kind

of listed out as 200 separate things too, to be looking at and organizing

that from a family's perspective.

It's easy to look at the subject itself that, that one of the 200 and go, well,

who do we need to help us with that?

And then, Oh my goodness.

It gets con.

Sort of really complex, but by having the framework of the tender mains, as an

outline, it's almost like an agenda for, these are the things we need to discuss.

And then that central role of the advisor client relationship being, we need to make

sure that this is taken as good a care of as the outer domains as well, because

we have to have the right people giving us advice on all of these different.

Topics.

And so from a family's perspective in looking at using this model, without

having to drill down into the 200 separate, um, sort of areas is to use

us an agenda and make sure that they have strong advisory teams in each

of those areas, flipping that to a practitioner side as a practitioner.

I think it's really important for us also to understand that when we're

talking about whatever's within our.

Um, domain is our domain speciality that we're aware that they need to

have strong advisory teams around them for the other domains that exist.

Um, because otherwise it kind of undermines what we're doing anyway.

It doesn't, it's a benefit to us to have other advisors bring everything

together in a coherent way, rather than, um, you know, leaving the families to,

to just get on with it because it's.

It's not all broken up, so to

speak.

Yes, exactly.

And, and, uh, I'm with you on that, Russ?

I think, um, uh, again, as I've been talking with some advisory firms and

multi-family offices, uh, one of the comments that one of the advisors made.

Was, you know, we always knew that in this particular case, they were talking

about family dynamics and governance.

We always knew that they were there, but we figured, you know, not our

business, there's that phrase again.

And that it was the family's responsibility.

If they wanted somebody there, then you know, they could get somebody.

And if they asked us.

Um, you know, we could give them a couple of recommendations, but we also

realize, as we talked about this as a team, this person's head that we have

struggled because the family didn't have somebody in those domains that

they were not getting good help, that they were kind of letting that language.

And we realized that the spillover effect.

To the family and to our own work was something that we

needed to pay attention to.

So they made an action plan.

That they were going to, uh, sit down, show the family, the 10

domains model and say, you know, what can we do to beef this up?

What can we do to really work on these domains?

Um, and, uh, they were going to talk to the family about how important those were.

To the work and all the other domains.

And I heard later on, uh, through an email, it was a very productive

conversation and it was kind of a wake-up call to the family.

To say, you know, actually we probably do need more help for that.

And they asked, uh, you know, who would you recommend?

And so now they're looking forward to, um, greater help in those areas.

So, uh, families and practitioners are beginning to look at

this model as a roadmap.

To the landscape and saying, where are we strong and where are we weak.

Yeah.

And I think if you look at that, um, again, from both sides of that

fence, the, the positive outcome to families is that they're getting more

coherent advice across all of the.

Um, issues and challenges that they're facing.

And from an advisor's perspective, they're starting to build more

relationships with other advisory firms that can perhaps help them to

create this kind of a virtuous circle.

It's not as if there's a, a negative outcome to all of this.

Um, and, and that's why I really like it.

This model, um, in.

Some respects.

The, if we think back to the three circle model that John Davis and Renato

developed, the beauty of that is in its simplicity and its complexity.

And for me, this, this has the same attributes.

It is.

Simple in the sense that it's very clear to understand it's very clearly

outlined and brilliantly articulated, but it comes with such a level of

complexity that it takes a real degree of, of care and understanding

to really make the most of it.

Um, and I think that's a really exciting opportunity for both families and for

the advisors that serve them as well.

Well, I'm finding that as I work with this model with families and

with advisers, that there's a, there's a lot of aha reactions

and the head nodding that goes on.

Um, uh, I will admit there are some heads scratching.

Actions that go on as well.

And maybe we can take a moment to talk about those.

And it's interesting because, um, like what you said about the three circle model

and some other things, there are some things about this model that are a little

surprising to some families and some practitioners, particularly practitioners

who may have as per a certain investment in what they do or their area.

Um, One area is there is no domain for family business, which has taken

center stage for more than 30 years.

Um, and when we started working on the model, that was one of

the first things that came up.

Well, you know, there's going to be a FA a domain of family

business, family enterprise.

And because we really were starting with a clean sheet of paper, uh,

we said, well, wait a minute.

No, is it a primary domain?

And the more we looked at it, uh, and, and with all due respect to all of

the many family business advisors, uh, throughout the world and, and including

myself, what, um, what we realized was family business was neither necessary

nor sufficient for the 10 domains that.

Certainly if you have a family enterprise and one of the most common ways that

people have ultra high net worth wealth, you have the 10 domains embedded in

some of the activities that you're doing, but some families come to wealth,

never having had a family business.

And if you have a family business or an enterprise and you have a liquidity

event and you sell the operating company, you are now a wealth owning family.

You still have the same 10 domains.

They are, uh, maybe handled in slightly different ways, but.

You still have all the same domains.

And so we realized that family business was just one way to organize activities

in the domains, but it was a not, it was not a domain in and of itself.

And that was incredibly eye-opening.

Yeah,

I can, I can see how, um, that could, could result in some.

Um, reactions, uh, particularly if, if you're a kind of specialism is I

work only with our family businesses.

Where am I in this model?

Exactly.

It's a little humbling to say I'm going to, where's my domain.

It's not here if I just been diminished, but what's interesting is again, from

the family standpoint, not the advisor standpoint from the family standpoint.

Family business is very important, but it is not primary.

Uh, life goes on with or without family business.

And so for families, actually, this makes a lot more sense.

They do not have skin in the game as to whether their particular

domain is represented or not.

Yeah.

And I think I covered this in a, a solo episode.

I did for episode 100 in, in covering.

Um, some of the kind of things I've taken away from all the learnings I've had from

doing is now a hundred plus episodes, but one of them is that the success of a

family should not be derived from their ability to keep a particular legal entity.

In family ownership.

And I think what, what you were speaking about there, perhaps take some of the

pressure off this feeling of we're only successful in inverted commas.

If we can pass this legal construct between different

generations of the same family.

Whereas in fact, it's just part of something that fits into

the 10 domains, as you say,

Right.

You know, that's brilliant Russ.

And, um, you had a comment on your LinkedIn posts, which I liked, and

we talked, which is, you know, that old research that says, Oh geez,

you know, the odds are against you.

Uh, you're all gonna fail family businesses.

Don't survive, you know, to the third generation and whatever.

Um, the idea that, that has actually been, um, a red herring that

we in focusing on the business.

Of the family that it blinded us to what really is important.

And that's again, where, you know, the 10 domains are what must last.

It is the longevity and sustainability of, uh, all the various 10 domains.

And that, in fact, this is sort of the bottom line.

If you pay attention to the 10 domains, You have good help in them.

If you are working carefully in the family and the 10 domains, you know, whether or

not you have a particular family business, it rises, it falls that goes away.

Um, it's the 10 domains, which are important across

generations, not the business.

Absolutely.

And I couldn't agree more on that, on that point.

Um, Jim, if people wanted to find out a little bit more about the 10 domains and

the ultra high net worth Institute, and perhaps do a little bit more reading on

this, where's the best place for them to.

Well, there is a, um, website, uh, at, um, uh, U H N w institute.org.

Um, that shows the activities.

Uh, there there's a public site and then there's a members site for the Institute.

The public site is what I described and, um, it has a, uh, recent

library and talking about resources that shows the 10 domains model.

And goes into detail about the different domains too.

There also has been, um, a link to a supplement that has been created that,

uh, gives a case example of a family shows the 10 domains and in particular,

um, goes into quite a bit of detail in each domain of the knowledge.

That is required for competency in that domain and the skills.

Required for competency in that domain.

And that's another aspect.

Maybe we could talk about another time, um, that, uh, you know, the

Institute is focused, not on just, what do you know it's focused on?

What do you know how to do.

And can you deliver this in a way that matches what people need with wealth?

And so I'm looking for that supplement.

Um, some of the sites being upgraded and the link may have

moved around a little bit.

If people want access, they can email me or perhaps you can post it,

uh, along with this podcast so that people can get the supplement and

look at it in more detail as a PDF.

Yup.

Fantastic.

And I'll provide links sort of that in the show notes.

Um, and, uh, also, um, just touched on a very important point

in terms of knowing what to do.

It's also, um, I think understanding that you don't have to do everything.

And I think a lot of the, um, Uh, uh, I might be being unfair here, but a

lot of, um, perhaps historical views is that I need to be the master of all.

Um, and it's just not, uh, not feasible.

I don't think in today's complex world, but, um, Jim has ever, it's

a real pleasure speaking with you.

Thank you for the insights.

I've learnt two words today.

Um, so, uh, that's something that at the side I can take away.

Um, but it's been great fun.

Thank you.

Well,

thank you so much for having me rest.

It's always great talking with you and I hope we talk again.