For the 100th story episode, the roles flip a little as Sam steps into the guest seat and hands the hosting mic over to Matt, creating space to share more of her own lived experience of religious trauma. Together, they reflect on the complicated grief that comes with leaving high-control faith communities, not just losing beliefs, but losing belonging, identity, and sometimes entire support systems through shunning and judgment. The conversation moves through the emotional weight of trying to re-enter those spaces, the loneliness that can follow choosing authenticity, and the slow process of finding connection again with people who truly understand. At its heart, this milestone episode is about loss, resilience, and what it looks like to rebuild a sense of home after everything familiar falls away.

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I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to beyond the Surface.

This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that you're here with us.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the 100th story episode of beyond the Surface.

There's a little few, a few more episodes than that, but Today is the 100th story episode and when thinking about what I wanted for this episode, it felt like the right time to sort of mirror the 10th episode which was my story. So a lot has changed in two years.

I use different language, I talk about my story really differently and I thought I would bring in someone who knows me pretty well and has played a key role in my story, albeit a really fucking annoying one at times to play host. And honestly, this episode could be absolute chaos and I have no idea where it's going to go or what it what direction it's going to take.

But that's okay because that kind of is the descriptor of messy non linear recovery. So welcome. Maybe depends on how the episode goes. Welcome Matt.

Hi Sam. That's probably the nicest thing you've ever said about me.

I know. And just fair warning for everybody. I'm wearing my Wicked Elphaba shirt because I feel like I need Elphaba Thropps spirit for this episode.

Yeah, I have been looking forward to this for such a long Time. And for anyone listening or watching, if it only goes for five minutes, you realize that we've edited out most of it, so, yeah, we'll see how we go.

All right.

So I was trying to think how long it is that we've known each other now, and I honestly can't remember. It's years and years and years. I wasn't going to say that.

It may not be how you feel, but I can remember one of our really, really early conversations. We're talking a little bit about our stories and things like that, and I'm not sure if I use this exact term, but I brought up the.

The topic of religious trauma, and you just looked at me like I was a little bit of an idiot, which, you know, I have come to get used to over the years. But, yeah, and it was. It was kind of like.

I don't think it was the first time you'd heard it, but it was almost like it was the first time it sort of seeped in a little bit and like, oh, maybe this is a thing for me. Do you remember that conversation?

Yes. I mean, I don't. I probably don't remember it in that amount of detail, but I do remember, and I've.

I think I've mentioned it before, that, like, it took a really long time for that language to even remotely feel. Okay, that. That it just, like, it just felt far too big, far too dramatic for like, what my experience was.

And so, yeah, I remember, like, there was, like, a moment, and I don't know whether it's the same conversation, but I remember there being a moment where it was, like, it was almost that the lens of what encompassed religious trauma broadened. And I was like, oh, actually, maybe it could land in that space. It was a really fun time.

That wasn't the language you used back then, but.

No,

it was. But on, like, from the other side, from where I was sitting, just seeing that moment of realization was actually quite profound.

You know, it was just that. Oh. You know, it was almost like a body language thing that. That I could recognize there.

So from that conversation, knowing that we've had lots, lots and lots and lots of other ones from that conversation around the religious trauma part of your story, at least, what. What have been the. The key signposts for you? Like, the. The markers, the light bulb moments for

you around my own religious trauma recovery?

Yeah. Yeah.

Geez. That's a broad question. Good.

Now, come on.

Um, in terms of, like, what felt like, helped it land as religious trauma or, like, parts of my recovery or Both.

Bit of both. I guess where I'm going with this is, well, certainly my own story. With religious trauma stuff.

There's been things that I've recognized or suddenly language that I've started to understand. And then when I look back, it helps me redefine or understand parts of my story. So that's what I'm going to ask you next. Just giving you a heads up.

I won't remember that by the time we get to it.

Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, the most recent thing which probably would have been, oh, I want to say, like, probably only about, like 10 months ago would have been that I probably only just started using the language of shunning for like, what I had experienced coming out of. Of my home church.

Home.

Church is such a weird word to use. But like, that's probably the most recent. I think I had just always, like, I had categorized it as like, yes, I had left. I had consciously left.

I didn't really get a choice in staying either. But I had never really looked too far into, I guess, what happened after that and had labeled that as shunning.

And I remember sitting down and creating a post for my social media about shunning and I was like, oh, that feels familiar. That's fun.

And so like, I probably use that as like the most recent example because, like, I've been doing this work for what feels like a very long time and yet, like, I talked about shunning with people for years, like, and it still never felt like a word that was mine. And so I guarantee that, like, that will continue. But I don't remember what the first thing was that felt like it landed.

I imagine it was probably like the, like, the verbal and the spiritual abuse that I got when I came out to my elders. I imagine that that's probably what have. Would have been one of the first things that felt like it landed.

Absolutely. And I can remember in one of our early conversations you wouldn't use that word.

No. Yeah, no, I wouldn't. I have tumultuous journey with the language of spiritual abuse.

And yeah, and I think that was probably like the space where it landed the best because it was probably a bit more overt than the other types of spiritual abuse that maybe I have experienced.

It felt more obvious and explicit and it was like, for my very avoidant self, it was a lot harder to deny that that was spiritual abuse because if somebody had sat in front of me and said those things, it just would not have been in question.

Would you describe yourself as avoidant I knew.

I saw your face react when I said that. And I'm pretty sure that anybody who has had any sort of conversation with. Would describe me as a void. Yes, 100% it.

And I mean, that's probably pre religion, to be fair. I don't think that religious trauma gets to monopolize why I have personality. It's got a part of it for sure.

It's like my, like, learned skill to dissociate at church was pretty well developed, but I think that was. That avoidance was pretty well developed before I gave my life to the Lord.

I think it's also worth acknowledging, though, that part of the abuse I won't speak for you. I speak for myself.

And you reflect on your own journey here was that I would avoid using that sort of language because I would get told that it's not abuse. You know, we need to forgive, we need to do all those sorts of things. So just avoid going there or even labeling it like that in the first place.

So there's a contribution. Where do you see that happening in your story?

I don't actually ever remember the word abuse being mentioned in my church ever. Like, about anything. Like, not even. Not even about other people's stories or about things in the community or anything outside of.

I certainly would never have heard it in the church about the church, but I don't even think I ever heard it outside of the church either.

Like, in terms of, you know, if there was like a domestic violence or a domestic abuse case or something, or we had, you know, victim survivors join the church or something like that. I don't even think that I would have ever heard the leaders around me use that language. Anyway. It was. I just think it was too.

It was probably too real and too human of a conversation for them to have a broach and too messy.

Yeah, yeah. For the benefit of those listening, I need to ask these things. I know I know them.

Oh, yeah.

Getting to ask them out loud. Can you just sort of paint the picture of the flavor of church that you were part of back.

Yeah, yeah. Flavors my language. But okay, I mean.

I mean, the people who have listened to the 10th episode will know this, but if this is the first episode you're listening to, go back and listen to others. But I joined a church at the ripe old developmental age of 12, and I initially spent like a little bit of time in the Anglican space.

But the home church and the main church that I keep referring to was. They were part of the Open Brethren at the time, which was what it was called. I think they've rebranded and relabeled now, unsurprisingly.

Um, but essentially they were the open, non exclusive version of the exclusive brethren that everybody knows. Um, and so it wasn't a closed community. We didn't have, we didn't have to wear certain clothing or anything like that.

We were able to mingle and have jobs and all of that sort of thing in the community. But we still had the ultra fundamental and conservative ideology that the exclusive brethren had as well. Yeah, that's kind of where I've come from.

Sure. Can you remember maybe not when you were 12, but in the, the teenage years?

Do you ever remember sitting there listening to a sermon or a small group or something and hearing stuff and then somewhere within your being thinking, this is just not right?

Maybe not the language of like, it's not right. There was probably times where I thought, this doesn't make sense. Like it's not lining up.

Particularly probably my older teens that would have happened probably not so much when I was younger, I think, you know, I think I just, when I was, you know, sort of maybe pre 16, I was just like really knee deep in like the belonging that that space gave. And also I was like 12 to 15. So like, yeah, I don't really care about anything but youth group at that point.

Although I was pretty, like I was very devout with my faith as well. But yeah, I think older teens was probably when like the diversity of my friends shifted at school and I started to interact with different people.

And I think that's probably where that very like justice oriented part of me started to really take shape. I mean, it probably helps that we got like very hefty like missions messages at church around like Voice of the Martyrs and, and things like that.

So that probably helped for sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think that part of me probably would have like hearing messages or things that didn't seem justice oriented or that didn't seem like fully loving and fully accepting. I think I probably would have been like, that doesn't really make sense.

But I would always like mental gymnastics out of that because God works in mysterious ways. So if it doesn't make sense to me, that's just like my lowly, like human brain that can't make sense of it.

Not that there was anything actually wrong with what was being said.

Was there any part of that mental gymnastics that was about, well, this is my tribe, these are my people, they must have it right, so I'll just do what I need to do so I can still belong?

Yeah, of course, I mean like they were my church family but they were my second family.

So like you know, I love, I love my mom, but, and, but I have a well had because dead dad, but I had a fraught relationship with, with, with my dad and he was really emotionally and verbally abusive and, and so you know, I was closer to them than I were my biological family. And so yeah, I trusted them. I believed what they said. I very rarely, if and if ever is a teenager questioned them.

It just wouldn't have occurred to me to actually ask questions about what they were saying. Not in a way that would indicate that I thought there was anything wrong with it.

Ask questions out of curiosity to learn more and to, to sort of grow but not, not to question itself. Yeah.

When do you remember the cracks starting to appear?

Which set.

The first set?

There were multiple sets of cracks. Yeah, the first set of cracks would have been.

So like many people know that I went and did a gospel gap year, it was called in year 13, which like it's got a cool ring to it for 17 and 18 year olds.

Right.

And that was with the ever famous, ever conservative Sydney Anglicans which was a mighty old fine time.

And I start like, I guess just like really pulling apart like theology and like the history of the Bible and particular doctrines and things like that. And my church had been really good at teaching but not necessarily like using particular language. It was like depending on who was speaking.

But some were a bit soft in their like theological sermons I guess.

And so I started to have language for concepts that I knew and that I had been taught but I didn't necessarily have the explicit language that I was being given here. And I was amongst a bunch of other obviously 17, 18 year old, typically a bunch of pastors, kids, which was good fun.

A bunch of people who had most like I reckon probably 90% of them had grown up in Sydney Anglicanism. So like really rigid, really strict gender roles, gender norms, strict theology, like literal creation Bible is the inherent and literal word of God.

Like all of those very hyper literal interpretations.

And then there was the teaching on predestination and, and it kind of just, you know, I came from like a non Christian family, I had a good portion of non Christian friends because that was like the witnessing thing to do obviously was to stay in those circles, to be a light and, and it kind of again it was that moment where I was like if this is like reality, it doesn't make sense. It like it was really hard for me to make sense of because I didn't see the point of it.

I was kind of like, if everything is predestined, then what is the point? What is the point of prayer? What is the point of witnessing? What is the point of any of it if everything is predestined?

And so that was probably the initial crack. And I remember asking a couple of my elders around a lot of it.

And many, if people have listened to the 10th episode, they will know this bit, which is when I said, like, I went to an elder's house for coffee and was like going around in circles about the concept and the doctrine of predestination. And his wife came over and said, like, let's just leave the academic stuff to the men. Because I was.

The church that I was in was very much like, you know, women don't teach. It was probably a good, I reckon 10 years even, maybe less, maybe like seven or eight years before women were even allowed to pray in church.

Like, like audibly. And so it was like quite conservative gender roles in terms of what you're allowed and not allowed to do. And it just was.

The women in the church were wives and they were mothers and that was very much their. They were great cooks, food was top notch. But that was kind of their role.

And if it was anything out of that, it was Sunday school or maybe singing, but certainly not leading and certainly not teaching. And that was the moment where I was like, actually, I'm not okay with that.

And that was, I think, quite at the end of my year, 13 year, and I finished my year out and I left. And I left quite abruptly for two years.

Tell the story about how that happened. I would have loved to have been there to see this, this leaving. Was it spectacular? Was it just a quiet, brooding? What did you do?

It was, it was brutal, to be honest. Like, it was brutal. I. And I don't recommend what I'm about to say as a.

Like, it's a very firm thing because I, I just, I upped and left like I was doing what felt like 600 ministries, even as like an 18 year old. And, And I didn't tell anybody that I wasn't going back and I just left. And I didn't respond to messages except for like a couple of my best friends.

And, and I didn't speak to anybody. And I was like young and I was hurt and I was angry and had no ability to regulate my own emotions.

And, and I, in that process, like, I'm very aware that.

And I was very aware when I went back two years later that I had hurt a lot of people in that process and a lot of people who didn't deserve that as well. And so it was. Wasn't spectacular. I would imagine my second exit was probably more spectacular than that, but it was quiet and it.

But it was pretty brutal and probably pretty cruel on my behalf a little bit.

I'm trying not to put my counselor hat. Did anybody in that two years reach out and ask how you were, like, genuinely not. Hey, how you going?

Can you tell me what's happening with this ministry? Like, you've pulled out of stuff. Something's going on for you. It sounds like you're hurting. Are you okay?

Yeah, probably for the first six months, they did. Yeah. A good portion of people, not everybody. Some just didn't say anything. And honestly, that's okay. I didn't want to hear from them anyway.

But, yeah, I mean, like, the people who were in my circle, the people that I did ministry with, my, like, the people who I would have considered my spiritual mentors at the time, for probably the first six months, they did. They were repeatedly reaching out. They were checking in to see how I was. They didn't understand because I just didn't say anything. And.

And I just was really young and angry and had had, like, a good, like, what's. I'm trying to do math off the cuff. Like, seven. Like six or seven years of, like, really rigid control and. And belief systems.

And I, like, once I was out, I was out, and I was, like, really out. And I. Yeah, so they did. And I give them that credit on that occasion. The only time they get that credit. And. Yeah.

And it is probably part of my story where I go, like, do I wish that I did that differently? Absolutely. Yeah. I.

And I was pretty brutal for the next, like, 12 to 18 months as well, because, like, I dressed as the devil for Halloween and, like, referred him as my new savior on Facebook. And, like, I was petty and, like, I was just. Yeah. So. And I knew that I still had people following me and friends with me on social media.

I knew it was going to hurt them, and it did. And. And it's not a section of, like, not a section of my story that I'm super proud of in terms of, like, how I left the first time.

Cool. Let's talk about that more then. I was actually going to say, it's hard to imagine you being brooding and petty. But anyway.

Yeah.

In that two years. Okay. We're dressing at the devil and doing all that sort of stuff.

That's not so much what I'M interested in, but more about what was happening in terms of your understanding of yourself in that two years. And then what led you to go back?

Yeah, so, I mean, I guess probably the key thing that happened in that two years in terms of, like, internally, would have been that, like, I kissed lots of girls. So that was probably, like, the first time that I. And I don't talk about it as a way of. I was not affirming of my sexuality in any way.

I just was like, it. I can do what I want. And I didn't have any sort of, like, theological strings attached to me that I couldn't do anything. And so I.

It was like, very much a time of exploration where I realized that, oh, maybe queer people are not evil. And I don't think I ever really thought that. I was very much thought that, but I don't ever think that I really thought that. And.

But there was just a lot of. Nothing much else because, like, to be quite frank, I spent most of that two years under some kind of influence.

Is the reality is that I drank a lot and I, you know, partied like, six nights a week. And, like, I was out a lot. And. And I was, you know, a very young, traumatized girl who just didn't want to fucking deal with life.

And so there was probably not a whole lot of internal processing happening in that two years.

Possibly avoidance, maybe?

Oh, yeah, a little bit, yeah, 100%, yeah, lots of avoidance and lots of, like, external things as means of avoidance, essentially. But it, like, it did allow me to, I guess, get a taste of what life was like outside of church.

And even though it didn't feel like reality, because it was kind of like a little bubble. And there are whole chunks of time of that two years that I just don't have any memory of in reality. And.

But it certainly allowed me to feel like I actually came out as a lesbian because I was like, I'm just gonna, like, over. Correct to the degree. And then that shifted because I just. And also I. It just felt like the shittiest thing to do to my church.

And then towards the end, realized that actually not. That's not correct. And.

And that's okay because, like, I feel like, you know, just like that was probably the most integral part of my sexuality exploration. And it wasn't done in the healthiest of ways, by any means. But I. It certainly meant that when I went back to church again, it.

My suppression looked really different because I had a much stronger conscious awareness that this was a part of me as Opposed to before that, what took me back, someone who, I mean, I had had what felt like most people describe as, like, God was just throwing signs at me. Obviously, I saw signs everywhere and.

But I mean, the biggest thing was that I had a friend from my year 13 era who it was actually, I describe him as one of the good ones. He was a really good guy. And he was killed in a motorcycle accident, which, like, death gives you a good perspective on things.

And it also meant that for me to feel like I was able to mourn him and, like, respect his life and his legacy. I also had to go back and interact with people that I hadn't for a couple of years and talk to them and have conversations and interact.

And I spent like, whole. A whole, like, weekend with these people when we were sort of, like, dedicating a weekend to his life.

And that amongst all of the signs, just felt like, you know, of course, God was drawing me back. And so I went back and I. I just woke up one morning and was like, yeah, I'm just gonna go. And. Yeah, so you went. Yeah.

You ended up back there. Yeah, but now with a different perspective of life, of yourself, of the world. You're a little bit older as well, I would expect.

I'm making an assumption here that the church would have kind of expected you just to sort of come back as you were before and still, you know, fall into line around going to Bible study and all of those sorts of things and their theology and their doctrine. But you're a different person now, not the same.

You still have perhaps some of the same questions and some of the same cracks were there, but now you see things quite differently. What was it like at least trying to re enter and trying to fit back in, and where was the internal conflict for you there?

Oh, I fit back in seamlessly.

Like, seamlessly, because, like, yeah, there's cracks there, but I've also got immense experience at filling the cracks and pretending that they don't exist. And so I walked in and on my very, like, the very first morning, I was like, like, called out and referred to as the prodigal daughter.

And so I was like their redemption arc. I was their redemption story. Like, I had left and I had strayed in a very dramatic and rebellious in their eyes way.

And yet I had come full circle and I had come crawling back to them.

And I had to literally come crawling back asking for forgiveness of some people, because, again, I was pretty brutal and cruel at the beginning of that two years. So I did have to make some Apologies and ask for forgiveness from people as well. And.

Yeah, I mean, within, I want to say, probably like, two to three months of being back, I was leading all of the things. I was leading worship, I was running Bible studies, I was leading Sunday school, I was doing youth group, like, all of the things.

Because, again, it's very easy to slot back into an old personality when it's so instilled in you. So I forget the rest of the question that you asked.

Just wondering, any internal conflicts there? And I suppose I'm angling towards your discovery of recognition of sexuality. And, you know, all of that, that's. That's still there.

What are we doing with it at this point in time?

Oh, we turn it off. That's exactly what we do. In the wise old words of the Book of Mormon, we turn it off. And a Book of Mormon, as in the musical?

Not the Book of Mormon, the actual book. Just as a clarification for people listening,

we're gonna get a hate mail now.

Yeah, I mean. Yeah. I mean, what else was. I. I had realized at that point that I was not a lesbian, that I was bisexual. And I was like, great.

I can just slot back in and just, you know, go back to, like, praying for a godly man and, like, all of that. And so, yeah, like, I had, like, by this point, a good decade of suppression experience. So I was pretty good at it. And it's. I just. I just.

Did you just turn it off and you push it down and you pray fervently for a godly man.

And then you watch sermons by shitty humans like Matt Chandler around homosexuality and Mark Driscoll and, like, all of them who just spit hatred because that's what my suppressed self needed to hear, so that I was doing the quote, unquote, right thing. So I probably, like, the internal conflict was there, but it was. I avoided it. I just didn't. His theme of the episode, it is a surprise.

Yeah, I avoided it. And also, I. I had a firm. I feel like, ironically, I went back in after that two years with a more solid faith than I had had beforehand.

And I haven't quite worked out why I think that is just yet, but I did. And.

And so I had a very firm and strong belief that, like, God would provide me with this, like, mythical, like, godly man that I would marry and have seven children with. So. And it didn't happen. But. And, I mean, it just. It just was not something that I ever gave time to unless it was.

I gave time to things that would confirm that So I would never listen to anything that was remotely affirming because that felt like, like heresy essentially. And the messages that were happening in my church started to get more condemning. I guess.

Like, up until that point they had been pretty passive and it would. You would just find it in like, much more, like, implicit ways. But the messages started to get more condemning.

Like, there was like, experiences of people wanting to join the church who were like, gay and were discouraged from that.

And yeah, I mean, like, on a very logical level at the time, I knew that that was wrong, but I also knew that that was the way that it was supposed to be. And no one in my church would have. Well, like, if they knew, they would have known that as like an experimentary phase during that two years.

But I never came out to anybody. There was no one safe enough in my church. And. And so, like, I was probably there for, I want to say, maybe three years before I left.

And it was probably only in the last boy, 12 months, maybe eight months, that I started to ask other questions. And that was because I was studying

Christian counseling and.

And it forced me to ask other questions. And also in the midst of that three years, I was sexually harassed by one of the elders sons and didn't really love the idea of men at the time.

So that was not great. And yeah, so the internal conflict was there, but it was not like it wasn't as it wasn't always conscious.

Yeah, so you said that there were multiple sets of cracks and the second leaving was far more spectacular. Let's hear about that.

Well, it was spectacular because, like, it actually involved conversations.

And I mean, and this is probably the part of my story that like, a good portion of people know, which is that, like, in I met Chrissy, and in gross cliche terms, it felt a little bit like love at first sight, which I know sounds really gross, but. And she'd probably cringe if she heard me saying that.

But yeah, I mean, there was something after that weekend that we first met where I knew that, like, this was worth it. I didn't know how, I didn't know why. I certainly had not developed, like, any sense of, like, intuition or instinct up until that point.

And I also knew that it was going to be a fucking disaster if I did. And so, like, I didn't go into that naively. I didn't think it was going to be as awful as what I had thought because again, like.

Like these people, my family. Yeah, so I didn't think it was going to be as awful. I still expected, like, Just basic decency and love and compassion and.

And I was doing like the right thing. I went and I had a conversation with my elders. I went into that knowing that, yeah, of course they're going to step me down from ministry.

I know that. That's. That's not going. They're not going to let me continue. I was prepared for that.

I wasn't prepared for the absolute, like, onslaught of judgment and hatred and I mean, abuse essentially, and the ultimatum of like, yeah, like, you can stay, but you can't be with her.

And if you stay, then you have to have like weekly Bible studies, accountability conversations and things like that with one of the elders to bring me back into right relationship with God. Because that's obviously what it meant.

And so it's sort of like I said earlier, like, yeah, I left, but I also was kind of just given an ultimatum that realistically I couldn't stay. And if I did, then I would both lose Chrissy and I probably would lose myself in the process.

Yeah, quite okay, if you don't want to. And I know there overlaps in our story here. Maybe I'll share a little bit of mine if it's appropriate.

But that onslaught, like the letters, the emails, the phone calls, the conversations, the being bailed up in the supermarket, you know, all the. I will use the language of hate here. Do you have some examples or stories about that sort of thing? Without.

I know this is like, for a lot of us that have gone this journey, sometimes we feel bad calling out that sort of really bad behavior of people that we have considered family in the past, but we need to because it's just not acceptable. What were some of the things that you experienced there?

Yeah, I've got the text messages still, much to some people's displeasure. But yeah, I mean, like, at the beginning it was. It was probably. It didn't look like hate to start with. With. It felt like hate.

But the way that they made it look was that it was. It was supposed to look like care and discipleship and compassion and shepherding and all of that.

It didn't feel like that because, you know, when the words like abomination and like broken and like demonic are thrown at you, it doesn't feel super loving. So that's probably, like, how it started. And then I think the, the in public, the. That looked like.

Just looking straight through you, like I just didn't exist. And like I was just invisible essentially, like, to people that I had spent the last 15 years being in relationship with. With that I was.

I Might as well have been dead to them, basically. I think, ironically, that would have been easier for them. Just morbid.

But yeah, it was probably around six months, I would say, because, like, throughout all of this, like, I'm still like. And for a good two years after that, still desperately trying to hold on to whatever is left of my faith.

And yeah, I received like multiple messages from like a couple of the elders around that they were concerned for my well being. Lots of quoting of the Bible, particularly from Corinthians.

And yeah, I mean, I was warned that if I was to come to a Christmas service, that I would quote that taking communion while living in sin could have serious effects on my health and the health of everybody else in the building, because that's how powerful I am, apparently. So it's out of concern for you, not out of judgment, that we've requested that you not take communion if you choose to attend.

And then they do hope that I turn from my sinful choices and that I'm restored to full fellowship with them soon. And like, there I. I also just got like, that I would be eating and drinking and heaping judgment upon myself and the people that I was around.

It felt like I had immense power here, like immense power that I just did not have. I think.

I think the judgment and the abuse came sporadically and from, ironically, probably the closest people to me, like my former best friends and the people that I would have connected with spiritually, like my spiritual mentors. Ironically, the people who were closest to me were the cruelest.

Yeah, the shunning.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then, like eventually, like after, I mean, we then like, defied the sanctity of marriage and. And got married, ironically, in a church.

We sung hillsong at our wedding. Hillsong. And we did an Audrey Assad version of like, be thou my vision. But like, we had someone pray over us at our wedding. Like, I was.

Chrissy was pretty out, but she was very, like, just being a good, supportive person to me because, like, I very much still wanted to hold on to something of my faith. But once we. Yeah, once we got married, that's when. That's when everyone dropped off.

So, like, I had three people, everybody, bar three people had basically just met me with silence, ignorance or judgment. I had three people left. And then as soon as we decided to get married, I lost them too.

Oh, wow, that's painful. So who came? Who came to your wedding?

I didn't have a single person from my church that came. I had one beautiful person who I did year 13 with who came which was lovely. And two people who I did my counseling course with.

So they are also people of faith and otherwise family and other friends. And none of Chrissie's family were there for similar reasons. They don't like me very much for, like, not great reasons.

But the people that were there were supposed to be there. But like, I still look back on our wedding day and as much as it was beautiful and would I absolutely choose different music? Yes.

Would I not sing Hillsong again? Yes. I would not. But. And I wouldn't. We wouldn't get married in a church. We wouldn't do any of that if we were getting married all over again.

But I look back and there are still people missing. There are people who were there, who should have been there, that weren't. And I don't think that that will ever not be the case.

I don't think I will ever just like, suddenly think that there weren't people missing from that day who, who should have been like, it was the wrong church that I got married in. Like, in terms of what I had always thought, it wasn't the right church, it wasn't the right person marrying us. It.

There weren't the right people in like, who were in attendance. There were people missing. And some of those people missing hurt more than others.

And there are some I don't really give two shits about, but they're not the ones that I'm thinking. Yeah, yeah.

I'm getting so, like, I know we, we talk about it with some laughs and things now, but I'm still very conscious of the, the wounds that are there. I feel that. Can kind of feel the tears behind my eyes as you talk about it.

I really, I don't know if you've ever really thought about this, but it just sort of struck me then the irony of our few stories that, you know, you fall in love with a woman and marry her and get kicked out of the church and I get kicked out of the church for saying that you could.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like,

yeah.

But I still stand by what I said. Indeed, it was the right thing to do.

I would hope so. Otherwise this conversation real

but, but also quite ironic is even though in a sense I represent, you know, your nemesis, you know, straight, white, middle aged guy that has had lots of power in the church. The, the shunning and the hate mail and the death threats and everything were just, yeah, overwhelming. It was incredible.

And I think it's worth acknowledging a main difference here is I know that I was receiving that because of a choice that I made, you were receiving it because of who you are. And I think that's a really significant difference that is. Is worth pointing out for those of us on this journey.

So how long have you been married now? You should know this.

I know.

Sorry, Chrissy.

Yeah, yeah, seven years this year. Yeah. Yeah.

Like you don't need to know how to do maths as it comes.

Thank goodness.

So in that time, you know, all of this stuff has happened to you. I'm just going to do the broad sweep of saying lots of that was abusive, spiritually abusive and otherwise. Yeah.

And I'm just again, broad brushstroke going to say that trauma is how our body carries the response to that abuse. And that can be different for everybody. Don't look at me like that.

I'm just preempting what these questions gonna be.

I got that look of death that almost left me in a pile of ash.

Yes.

Where.

What have you seen in terms of, you know, I've married this beautiful woman and on this new life that is full of beauty and love and joy and a whole lot of really beautiful good things. But there's still the legacy of that abuse in the past. Where have you, you felt or seen the trauma rear its head personally or relationally?

In our relationship?

Personally first, then relationally.

I think, like, personally, we've already sort of like touched on the avoidance. She's a very strong part of me. I love. I like parts language. It's very unsurprising that I will use parts language. I use it with my clients.

But like, my avoidant part is a very strong part. And if I don't like something or it feels gross or it's painful, then I typically do basically everything possible to avoid it.

Never noticed that.

I know complete brand new information. So I think that that's. I mean, that's probably the biggest thing.

I also, like, for the first couple of years, I actually probably just like tried to double down. For the, like, actually maybe the first year, I just probably tried to double down on my faith and.

And tried to probably be as like, queerly fundamental as I could, if that's good terminology. I was like, deeply disconnected and detached from my emotions. And that's still like a work in progress. Because when you have like.

And again, like the detachment from myself and the dissociation started well before church. Church just turned the volume up, essentially. So I was pretty detached. That made it hard relationally as well. Obviously. Yeah, I mean, like, it was.

I think for the first, probably two or three years. I don't think I probably had any awareness of anything else because of that detachment.

And I. I think the other way that it probably landed was, like, humorously so, like, sarcasm and cynicism were my best friends. They still are, to be fair.

Really?

Yeah, absolutely. Unsurprisingly. I know, but I think. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a hard question to answer, but it. There's like, shit, tons of grief.

I think that's probably the biggest thing that was, like, really, really painful.

And I was like, quite like if I went back to my hometown, because we didn't live there, like, super hyper vigil was very on edge about, like, running into anybody, and if I did, I would panic. Ironically, it happened like, two weeks ago. Not in my hometown in Sydney, of all places, where you run into, like 700 people at once. And.

And like, my body still responded the same way as it did like, seven years ago. Was I able to regulate quicker? Absolutely. But, like, I panicked and I ran, basically.

And so, yeah, it landed with, like, tons of anxiety and I had no language for it because I was so disconnected. So that's probably. Personally, relationally, I just tried to squash Chrissy and I into, like, hetero gender roles. It was really good. It was fun.

She loved that. By the time we got married, that was probably a little bit better.

And it was probably only about, like, eight months, I would say, out of getting married that I actually realized, like, why. Why am I pushing this? Like, why am I fighting for something that doesn't. That's not fighting back, essentially? Like.

Yeah, like, I think that's probably. But relationally, it's hard. It affects, like, communication, it affects intimacy. It affects, like, boundaries and conflict resolution.

And, you know, we both have trauma histories, and so that's always fun. We trigger the. Out of each other.

So, you know, I think all of those that are not necessarily religious specific, but just part of navigating relationships where both people have experienced trauma.

Yeah. Yep.

And I. I'll just throw this into the mix in terms of the grief that you mentioned, for instance, even when you do all your work and the healing is there and all that sort of stuff, the grief remains, you know.

Yeah.

You know, there's. There's a significant loss there of community, of friendships, of relationship, of certainty, of all sorts of things. And. Yeah.

That.

That wound is deep.

Yeah. And I mean, I think it was also like. Like, I had lost the relationship with God.

Like, it just was not the same as what it was, even if I was trying desperately so, like, to, like, cling to that. But they just like. And I tried. Like, I.

And I got to the point after, like, like, arduous therapy of, like, to the point where I sort of came to the point of I could be like, a queer Christian if I wanted to. Like, I knew that that was something that could happen.

I had got to the point, like, theologically, after going around in circles for, I want to say, probably about 18 months, I knew that I could if I wanted to. I just didn't. I didn't have any fight left in me. I didn't. I didn't care about any of it anymore. There wasn't enough for me to go.

Yeah, like, that has so much meaning to me still that I want to hold on to it.

And I mean, to quote the great Elphaba in the most recent Wicked movie, in her song, there's no Place Like Home, she starts it with, like, why do I love this place so much? That's never loved me? And I kind of just got to that point where I was like, I'm fighting for something that's never going to fight back. Back for me.

I'm loving. I'm trying to hold on and love something that's not loving me. And I was like, that I got better things to do. The.

I think that's probably the most point where, like, the anger came out as well. And like. And not, like, rage, anger, but, like, anger on behalf of, like, what younger me had probably gone through.

Yeah, absolutely. For me and my journey. Journey. You have mercilessly mocked me for finding solace in the mountains and under the trees, in nature.

You can't say that when I'm a mouthful of water.

So I think it's fair to say that you've found your solace in other places through other methods. What are some of the things that have helped you on your journey of wholeness, of healing?

Yeah. Not touching trees. I tried forest therapy with you once, and I got a handful of splinters, so never again. Yeah, that was not a fun time.

I think after a while. Once I had been able to, like, process some of the. Particularly, like, the connection. I grieved music a lot.

Music had always been like, I was a worship leader. It was the way that I connected to God. I did musical theater for 15 years of my life as well. Like, I had always had. Music was a part of that.

And when I had left that space like worship music and music in general because like, like good worship music just mirrors secular music. So everything just felt all too familiar. I. I couldn't do it anymore. And so that I think sort of.

It didn't sort of like, stunt my recovery, but it made it hard because music then eventually played a huge part of my recovery and being able to like, connect to emotion again and to connect with like, just creativity and the way that I saw the world. And unsurprisingly, like, because my love for Wicked did not start with the movie.

So like, the lyric, like the songs from Wicked were a big part of that. Like, Missy Higgins was a big part of that. Music that I was never allowed to listen to was a big part of that.

I like humor then became a way for me to cope that wasn't avoidance, but just as a way to like, sit in the absurdity of some of what I had experienced and then shows that sort of allowed me to see queer relationships and queer joy not in like a pathologizing way or that even had any trauma attached to them. So like, you know, Schitt's Creek as an example. Like, you know, there's no, there's no huge amounts of trauma for. For those relationships to happen.

They just did.

And so I think engaging in content that showed a different kind of belonging and a different kind of softness around queer relationships, I think that they're probably like, the biggest things that came to mind in terms of like, what was helpful. I know a lot of people say writing and I could probably like to do it. I'd prefer to touch the trees than. Right. Which probably tells. Says a lot.

And, and that's probably from years of like, devotionals and journaling and prayer. Journaling and doing the purpose driven life about four times. And, and, and so like, typical.

And I say this a lot to people, typical processing and recovery methods don't always work for religious trauma survivors because they're too triggering. And so, yeah, engaging in secular media. Secular. Such a weird. It's such a religious thing to say. People don't say that normally. And.

And I think also just connecting with other people that had experienced it as well, realizing that, like, I'm not the only person that had experienced it. Yeah, they're probably like the biggest things.

And that obviously, like, working in this space has been deeply healing as well, because I get to go on that journey with other people. But. And yeah, it's good.

And look, I think that sort of tidies it up really nicely. The questions that I wanted to Finish with were around the religious trauma work that you do in the Religious Trauma Collective.

I would like to tell a story though, about that.

Sure.

Way back, way back in those early conversations after we first met, talking about religious trauma and sort of seeing light bulbs come on.

And you said to me, and I quote, oh, God, you said, matt, you need to put some training together and you need to put this together, you need to put that together and all of this stuff. Like you just mapped out the rest of my entire working life for me. Do you remember what I said? Yes. What did I say?

Oh, something ludicrous about me doing it.

I thought, no, Sam, you should do this.

Yeah.

Now, as we sit here, the Religious Trauma Collective has been around for a couple of years. We've had big events, there's resources, there's support groups, all sorts of things.

And I would like to say it publicly in front of all of your listeners and viewers and everything that I told you.

So that seems rude. I invited you here. Supposed to be nice to me, but

no, in all seriousness, I can remember way back for those early conversations and I remember you saying those things to me and it was just abundantly obvious that I was not the right person to do that and that you were like, I would help, I would play my part and all that sort of thing. But this needed to be led by yourself and some like minded people, which you have found with Elise and Jane. And it's become this amazing thing.

And I know you hate this. Like this quite possibly will generate another slur of swear words in my direction. But you're seen as an expert in this space now.

You know, you're one of the go to people and I think rightly so. I don't care if you don't believe me or not, because I'm right.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Look, I mean, it's very lovely. Do I absolutely loathe the word expert? Absolutely. Yeah.

I hate it because I have experience and I have knowledge, like, and I still hate positioning myself as somebody who is an expert. Expert. And I have long since seen the people who position themselves using that language be actually pretty problematic.

So that kind of is the same deal. No, it's not.

I'm gonna pause you there. I am absolutely going to pause you there because you're talking rubbish.

But do I love the collective? Yes.

Yes.

For what it's worth, I have never once in all of these years here you position yourself as the expert. No, this is a recognition of your experience, of your knowledge, of your passion, of your care for others.

That share similar stories, and I think it's a label you deserve, so there.

Thanks. Can we move on now?

Can we talk about how you suck at taking compliments as well?

Just. Yeah. I mean, am I really proud of where RTC is? Absolutely.

It's like, I remember the first conversation I had with Jane, and we were kind of like, you know, we never anticipated that it would be where it is. And to be fair, had we not brought Elise into our little, like, trio, it wouldn't, because none of the admin would get done.

And Elise is, like, the glue that holds us together and keeps us on track and all of that sort of thing. And so we all have, like. We all have our roles to play, and we wouldn't be able to do it without the other. And I love what I do.

I love this podcast as much as it takes a lot of energy, and I resisted doing the podcast for a while as well.

Oh, really?

Yes. I know. I thought you were gonna bring that up as well, but I love this podcast.

I love being able to put something in people's ears that I would have loved, that I needed in terms of, like, hearing other people's stories and just that sense of, like, we're all just a little batshit crazy together as opposed to being batshit crazy on our own.

That's a beautiful way to describe.

Yeah.

Look, there is so much more that I want to ask and so many more stories to tell, but I am very conscious of the time, and I think that perhaps that's a fitting place to. To finish the story up until now.

I want to make a commitment to you, though, that for episode 200, we reconvene and we tell the next part of the story. Up until then.

Yikes. We're probably going to be closer to that than I. We realize,

because there is still more of that story being told.

And as your story unfolds, there'll be other stories that feed into it from people that have connected with the Religious Trauma Collective, have found their own healing, their own new journeys and things through that that leads into parts of the collective that we still are yet to know and discover.

So, yeah, And I think, like, I sort of mentioned at the beginning, like, you know, it was only probably 12 or 18 months ago or something that I had the language of shunning. And so the way that I talk about my story now versus two years ago when Jane interviewed me is like chalk and cheese. My story hasn't changed.

It's just that the language that I have around it has. Has shifted with more clarity, probably with more cutthroatness, I imagine more brutality.

I. I think, you know, I re listened to that episode and I talked around in circles a lot because it was still probably fairly fresh for me in putting voice to my story anyway. And so, yeah, I imagine in. I think we're actually sitting at about like 115 episodes, so I imagine in like 85 episodes time. Yeah, it's.

It will look different and it will sound different and there'll be new parts, but there might also just be new language to the parts that already existed. So.

Awesome.

And I'll call out a few more people as shitty people.

Yeah. Can I give you a list? Oh, no, that's my story, not yours.

I'll call them out too, as well. I'm more than happy to call out people's shitty people in their stories.

All right, well, look, thank you for your openness and your vulnerability. Thank you for finally relenting to let me sort of take the reins and ask the questions for once. I have thoroughly enjoyed myself.

I am absolutely inspired by you still, and I look forward to hearing the next parts of the story.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes. As always, you are good. You have always been good, and your story matters always.