In this very special episode of The Business Development Podcast, Kelly Kennedy sits down with Jake Gold, one of the most influential architects of Canadian music and the longtime manager behind The Tragically Hip. Jake takes listeners behind the curtain on what a music manager actually does, not as a hype man, but as the CEO of a complex business where touring, deals, team decisions, merchandising, data, and long term career strategy all run through one leader. He shares the moment he first saw The Tragically Hip live and knew instantly they had to be signed, plus how conviction, detail obsession, and a willingness to say no are what separate career building from chasing quick wins.

This conversation is packed with crossover lessons for founders, CEOs, and business developers, especially around standards, positioning, and being relentlessly curious as the market changes. Jake breaks down why the music industry is bigger than ever, why direct to consumer and data matter, and why the barrier to entry being low does not change the one truth that decides everything: you still have to be great. Kelly also acknowledges the human side of legacy, including the grief the country felt around Gord Downie, and Jake shares how he stays grounded and sustainable across decades in a 24/7 industry, while hinting at meaningful plans ahead for what comes next.

Key Takeaways:

1. You will know greatness when you feel it and it is an involuntary response, not a logical checklist.

2. Great careers are built by setting the real bar and realizing what “next level” actually looks like the first time you witness it.

3. A great manager is basically the CEO of the band’s company, overseeing every revenue stream, cost, and decision with the artists as the board.

4. Sustainable performance comes from ruthless time protection: knowing when not to get involved, saying no, and avoiding time wasters.

5. If you do not believe in what you represent, you will eventually get bored and move on, so belief is the fuel of long term excellence.

6. The small stuff is the big stuff: details matter because this is the whole business and you do not get paid unless it works.

7. There is no plan B if you want career level outcomes, and if the artist or founder loses belief, the manager cannot save it.

8. Curiosity is a competitive advantage: keep learning, keep reading, and bring new ideas to the table even when you are the most experienced person in the room.

9. Data and direct fan connection are core now, and the winners will understand audiences, demographics, and DTC relationships better than ever.

10. In a world where anyone can publish, the filter is still the same: you have to be great, the cream rises, and longevity is the real proof.

Connect with Jake Gold and learn more about his work:

The Management Trust (Official Site)

https://mgmtrust.ca/

Jake Gold on LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-gold-92046030/

If you know you are built for more, you belong in The Catalyst Club. It is a private, high trust community for founders, business developers, and next generation leaders who want real connection, real support, and real momentum.

Join us today: https://www.kellykennedyofficial.com/thecatalystclub

Mentioned in this episode:

Hyperfab Midroll

First notes, Gord Downey opens his mouth, the band kicks in and we look at each other and I'm like, we gotta sign these guys like tonight.

The great Mark Cuban once said, business happens over years and years.

Value is measured in the total upside of a business relationship, not by how much you squeezed out in any one deal.

And we couldn't agree more.

This is the Business Development Podcast, based in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and broadcasting to the world.

You'll get expert business development advice, tips and experiences and you'll hear interviews with business owners, CEOs and business development reps. You'll get actionable advice on how to grow business.

Brought to you by Capital Business Development, CapitalBD CA.

Let's do it.

Welcome to to the Business Development Podcast.

And now your expert host, Kelly Kennedy.

Hello.

Welcome to Milestone, episode 299 of the Business Development Podcast.

And today it is my absolute pleasure to bring you Jake Gold.

Jake is one of the most influential figures of Canadian music history.

As the founder and CEO of the Management Trust, he has spent more than four decades discovering, developing and championing talent at the highest levels.

From helping transform the tragically hip into a national culture icon, to shaping the careers of artists like the Pursuit of Happiness and Big Rec, to managing award winning producers and the next generation of rising stars, Jake's fingerprints are on some of the most important music history in this country.

Many Canadians also know him from his six season run as a judge on Canadian Idol.

But behind the scenes, he's been equally impactful, serving on the boards of sema, MMF and Connect Music as well as Resound, shaping policy, advocacy and the business of music itself.

With a Hall of Fame career, a rare instinct for talent, and a legacy that continues to influence culture across generations, Jake Gold stands as one of the true architects of Canadian music.

His vision, his strategy and his ability to build careers that stand the test of time have made him a defining force in this country's creative landscape.

Jake, what an honor and a privilege to have you on the show today.

I don't know if there's anything more to talk about.

Kelly.

That was quite an intro.

I will say that.

Yeah.

The Management Trust, I want to just clarify, was founded by myself and my then partner Alan Greg, who I'm still very close friends with.

So we'll have to just make sure that we understand that.

So we met in late 85 and we decided to get into business.

But we can get into that at Some point, but yeah, but thanks.

That was beautiful.

Episode 299 so we're crossing the threshold now.

We're almost 300, so there you go.

You know what's really cool too, Jake, is that we're going to be releasing this right before the new year.

So this is just an inspirational, exciting episode into something that many of us never get to peek behind the curtains, right?

We see the stage, we see the frontman, we see the amazing rock shows, but we don't see what it takes to make it all happen.

And so for me and you know, many of our business and CEO listeners, understanding the leadership that goes behind running, you know, a band like the Tragically Hip is really exciting.

And as a, as a huge rock fan myself, my playlist is hair metal, so I'm pretty consistently listening to bands from, from the 80s.

Like I said, for me this is an honor and a privilege and I'm excited to just learn more about you today.

Okay, well, let's get into it.

So I always like to just kind of go back to the beginning, obviously.

45 year career in the music industry, like for goodness sakes, dude, that's got to be like most of your life.

Walk me through it.

So I actually it's a funny story and I'll.

So I started managing my first band in 81.

They were called the Purple Hearts and it was.

A friend of mine was the drummer.

I had dabbled in working with bands.

I was like a lighting guy and like helping out friends bands.

Been on the road a bit with one of my friends bands.

But when I. I was living in LA from like 79 to 81 and I came back to Canada in around spring of 81 and my friend had this band and they were called the.

They were called Hot Tip.

They used to be called the Numbers and then they had to change their name.

And anyways, he said you should be our lighting guy and our tour manager.

And this was a childhood friend, he was the drummer in the band.

And the band ended up breaking up before they went on the road.

And so they ended up reforming like a couple of months later.

They got a new guitar player and the same friend came to me and he said, you should be our manager.

And I said, well, I don't know anything about it.

He goes, don't worry, you'll be good.

And I was like, all right, I guess I'll do that.

Because I really wasn't doing anything else.

I had finished high school, did a half a year at college and I was bored and I was like, okay, let's do that.

And, and that's all I've done since.

You know, they, they gave you tickets that you could have for friends and family for the event, and I invited him and his wife to that thing.

And I, in my acceptance speech, I, I pointed him out and I said, this guy right here, he's sitting right here.

He was the guy that gave me my first shot.

So his name's Coleman York.

So I'll never forget.

And we're still friends to this day.

Like, we still get together and go out for dinner and things like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And this is someone I've known since I was in grade six or seven.

So.

Wow.

Wow, what a full circle moment.

Hey, it must have, like, on the other hand, to see somebody of your success up on that stage and know that, know that you played a role in that, that you, you made that pick, that must feel pretty good on his part too.

Yeah, I mean, he, he left the business, he stopped drumming and he went into other things and he's been quite successful in his, in his life.

But, but it's interesting.

We, you know, we have this relationship that there's this connection that's gone on for so many years now.

Like, so we're, we're 44 years.

Next year will be 45.

Right.

So I'm 67 now.

So I'll be 68 in, in April.

Okay.

You say most of my life.

Yeah, about two thirds of it.

Yeah, yeah.

But once again, with that level of time, 45 years into the industry, it's like, of course, of course you're, you're leading the charge here in the Canadian music industry.

Like, you can't spend that much time perfecting your craft and not just become the best at it on some level.

And I'm very excited, like I said, to just dive into that with you because, you know, We've talked to CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.

We've had people from all areas of business, but the music industry is one area that we just simply have not explored in 300 episodes of the show.

And I think.

Is it because, Jake, the music industry is actually incredibly small.

Is it very small in tight knit, or is that maybe just because we have an outside perspective of it?

Oh, I think it's really large.

It's a global business and the barrier to entry compared to when I started is like zero today.

Like anybody can record something on their laptop and in moments put it up on online and you've released your music.

You know, when I started, you had to go into a studio, you had to use tape to record.

There was no digital, there was no programs on.

There weren't even laptops, let alone the Internet.

You had to actually make an investment and spend money and get really good in order to put your music out.

So I think the music business and the global music business is bigger than ever though.

The live music business is bigger than ever.

You know, you also have to realize that there's just more people, you know, when you think about the live music business and the people that consumed music and you look at like the 60s, you know, I was born in the late 50s.

I started listening to music.

You know, my first concert when I was six, I went to see the Beatles.

They, you know, they played 30 minutes.

I don't remember any of it.

At Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto and, and, but there was a small group of people that went to, let's refer to it as popular music at the time, shows like rock music, there was a small group of people.

In the 70s that group grew.

In the 80s it grew even bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

So there's, yes, it's, it's multi generational now.

So of course the business is going to get way bigger.

And that's why you're seeing, you know, you talk about Fortune 500 companies.

That's why you're seeing music royalties and music assets is now an asset class that you're seeing VCs pouring money into.

You're seeing big business.

It wasn't big business.

All the, the record companies at one point were publicly traded.

Before that, no one took them seriously.

You know, Universal Music is part of Bendy.

They're publicly traded.

Live Nation is publicly traded.

Like all these companies that were like individual entrepreneurs have now been rolled up and they're all publicly traded.

So to say it's small I think is wrong.

I think that if anything it's bigger than ever and it drives revenue beyond just in itself, especially on the live side.

You know, when Taylor Swift comes to Toronto and does six nights.

Right?

Yeah.

There's 240,000 people that went to the show and let's say an average ticket price of $200.

So you got a $50 million gross on those shows.

But Compare that to the economic impact of all those people coming to those shows and people flying in and hotels and restaurants and bars.

And only recently, live nation just did a big study on a global study on a country by country basis on the economic impact of the live nation music sector.

And it's astounding what that does.

Yeah.

So people are taking music bigger than ever and taking it more seriously than ever in that way.

And we're just a small part of it in that way.

Sure.

I suppose what I was maybe trying to allude to.

I agree completely.

And actually, as somebody who's in pretty tight with the Edmonton destination hotels group, I agree with you.

Because actually, that's what they look at.

Who can we get to come to the city for the economic impact.

Yeah.

Far beyond the ticket sales.

So in complete agreement, like entire cities are planning city budgets around who's coming to our city.

I think what you're referring to, Kelly, is that nobody knows, really knows what happens, you know, to your point, off the top, what happens behind the stage, like the.

Backstage is always been that kind of what happens backstage.

I gotta tell you what happens backstage.

Not much.

You know, like people are resting and eating and resting and eating.

You know, it's.

It's not like it was in the 70s and 80s, that's for sure.

My first introduction to music management was in get him to the Greek.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

That's when he was in Vegas.

Yeah.

And all that.

And managers over the years have had really different roles.

We've had really different roles.

And now more than ever, it's more important to have a really good manager, because so much of what we can do today, we can do on our own.

We don't need the record companies as much as we used to.

We don't.

They.

They still serve a part and what they do.

But a manager that really understands data, that really understands fan involvement.

You know, there's way more fan D2C stuff going on now than ever before.

You know, direct to consumer stuff from the bands.

Although I started doing it in the 90s.

It was novel then.

Now everyone talks about it as this new thing.

It's like.

Yeah, it's 30 years old for me, you know, communicating with the fans.

What a concept, knowing your customer, you know, but it was novel then.

Weren't.

Didn't even care about the data.

They just wanted to Sell the record.

And they were like, no, you can have all the names and you can have all the data.

And I was like, great, you're going to pay for me to get all the data.

I'll take it.

But now, now they want it all.

They want all the data.

Absolutely.

You know, so that, that, that's.

The business has changed a lot in that way.

In a lot of ways it hasn't too.

Can you lead us into what, what a music manager actually does?

What is the real job behind the scenes?

I've heard you refer to it as the CEO of essentially the company that is the band.

What is the job of a music manager?

I mean, I, I say it that way because it's the only way for maybe even your audience to really understand it.

I am running everything, so the kind of the buck stops with me.

Whether it's tour personnel, whether it's record company, whether it's a publishing company, whether it's third party sponsorships, whether it's merchandise, whether it's any of that kind of stuff, everything runs through me.

And then I take those things to the band and we discuss and we make our decisions on whether we're going to do something or we're not.

There's a lot of things I get a lot of leeway with where the band is like, yeah, you'll know what's good for us and what isn't.

And that's the relationship that you build over time.

Right.

Where you get to know what they want to do and what they don't want to do.

And then your job is to advise and counsel them on.

Here's an opportunity, here's the upside, here's the downside.

No different than a CEO going to the board of directors, the artists, whether it's a group or an individual, they're the board of directors of the company.

It's their company, it's their business as a manager, because I manage multiple acts, I'm managing multiple boards of directors, and I'm the CEO of various different companies.

So I think that's how you have to look at it.

Yeah.

So to say what I do is a lot of things, you know, my inbox is full, I'm making calls, I'm doing global touring things.

It's like it's all of that stuff.

So to be able to just sort of pinpoint it as to the one job, really, I'm overseeing a business and the business has many sources of revenue and many costs involved in it.

So you're, you're overseeing all of those Things now you work with lawyers, you work with business managers slash accountants.

When you're planning, when you're planning, touring, when you're planning.

If I'm in the middle of a renegotiation, I'm going to sit down with the lawyer and I'm going to sit down with the accountant and say, okay, what are these?

What does this actually mean when we're going in to try and renegotiate a deal or something like that?

So we're doing, you know, we're doing financial assessments on all of it.

But at the end of the day, the job is to make the, make the client money.

Like that's the job.

Yeah.

I see so many leaders, especially leaders, you know, in your position where you're executing at such a high level, such a high time management level where, especially nowadays, and you know, I mean, in a lot of ways you've probably been doing this for way long before it was cool.

I think most people during COVID got the experience of essentially working from a home office for the very first time.

I do imagine that in the music industry, you guys have been operating, operating that way for a very long time.

How do you not run into a wall and experience severe burnout?

Because I'm seeing that with leaders around the world these days is that we're working in a lot of ways harder than ever.

Many are working from home.

We're in a society where everything is vying for your attention.

How have you been able to sustain this for 45 years at such a high level, managing multiple high performance acts and seem to do it and still be here and be just fine?

I would love to better understand how you've been able to sustain yourself.

That's an assumption, Kelly.

But first of all, I actually had, I had offices and I had staff in the offices for many, many years.

Only in the last 10 years have I actually set up in my place where I live.

But I happen to have a great setup and if I didn't have a place like where I am now, I couldn't do it because I'm very diligent about work.

So I have a two story loft in downtown Toronto.

The first level is the office.

The upper level is where I live and it's a big place.

So it's not like I'm cramped in or anything.

Yeah.

So if someone came to visit me and they came in, they'd think they were in my office.

And I treat my office like I'm going to work.

Right.

So I sit down at my desk every morning at 10 o'.

Clock.

Do I work before then?

Yeah, I'm up at 6:30, 7:00 every morning.

I'm answering emails, I'm getting things started, getting things going, not making any calls.

But sometimes, you know, I'm on a call with someone from Europe so I need to be on the phone or on a zoom or something like this at 8:30.

I think what Covid taught us is that we could do it and it allowed us to actually do this.

I now I don't have to get on the phone with some guy in Holland.

I can get on a zoom, have a face to face with them and discuss potential deals.

And I've done that many times.

And I don't have to go to Holland to have that meeting where before I'd have to.

So now I can do it like this.

And I think what Covid did is it told everyone, oh, you can do it this way.

So those were sort of the silver linings that came out of it.

Totally.

So I think that.

And I'm really good at compartmentalizing things and time management.

Like I know when not to get.

That's probably the biggest lesson I learned over the years is when not to get involved in something and knowing how to recognize something, that's just going to be a time waster and not to do it.

So I say no a lot more than I used to and I just, I'm diligent and plus I jokingly say I don't work because for me it's, it's what I do, it's part of my lifestyle and so I don't see it as work.

I don't like, oh, I have to go to work.

I don't see it that way.

It's a different mentality.

And because it's a 247 business, especially when an axe on, on tour, you really have to spend a lot of time being available.

You know, I do have boundaries with clients.

If it's not an emergency or urgent and I don't respond over the weekend, it's because I don't respond over the weekend.

And sometimes you have to train your clients to understand that, that you know, your emergency is not an emergency, you may think it is.

Plus you're dealing with creatives and I think when you're dealing with creatives you have to understand that they can get the Muse at 2am and they want to tell you about it at 7am the next morning.

So you have to balance that too.

But yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know, if I've ever had burnout, it's probably cost me relationships, like on a personal side.

But I made that choice.

So I don't have kids either, so it's probably a little easier.

Right?

Okay.

Yeah, Yeah.

I, I love that you said I, I made that choice because I think maybe a lot of people in leadership roles, they don't acknowledge the fact that they did choose to do it.

They did choose to take that position.

They chose to run that company or start that company.

And a big part of, I think, a big part, I think of ownership of that and feeling good about that decision and not ending up in a place where you're really down about it is recognizing that at the end of the day, it was your decision and your ch and you can still choose to do something else whenever you so desire.

I think a lot of people don't take ownership necessarily in that way.

So I, I love that you touched on that.

I chose this life.

Yeah.

And I don't, I actually don't have regrets.

I, I don't live that way.

Like, I, I, I like my favorite saying is no rear view mirror.

And I think that's being an entrepreneur, Entrepreneurship.

Want to always figure out what's the next thing.

And I probably, you know, I probably could sit back and tap pat myself on the back for all the things I've done over the years.

But I don't, you know, I, I'm, I'm always thinking about what am I going to do next?

What, what can I do next that's going to be cool and it's going to make my clients money and it's going to be fun and you know, all of that stuff.

Right.

So you have, I think, probably one of the coolest jobs on planet Earth.

I'm sure it has its moments, but I can't see anybody staying in something for 45 years if they didn't absolutely love it.

Would you say that your passion for music has stayed steady, has declined, or maybe has grown in your time in the music industry?

I always love music.

I listen to it.

I'm in the car, I'm here, I'm listening to my clients new music.

I go back to the stuff that made me get into music in the first place.

My favorite stuff, I'm a prog rock guy from the 70s, so I listen to that.

There are people that I've met.

Like I was, where was.

I was at an event recently and someone said, yeah, I tried to be a manager for a while and they said, I don't Know why you do that?

And they were like, I couldn't do it.

So it's not for everybody.

And I actually think I'm unemployable.

Like, I don't see myself.

I wore that a lot.

I don't see myself working for somebody.

I just could.

I don't think I could do it.

Right.

But also I think the greatest artists in the world are unemployable, and that's why they're artists.

Could you see Bob Dylan or Neil Young or Gord Downey or like any of these great artists?

Could you see any of them have a job?

No, they don't have a job.

Right.

So I think we all sort of fit into that same world of like, a great artist is an entrepreneur in itself because they're making great art, whether you're a painter or, or a sculptor or an actor or a director, you know, a filmmaker or.

Or a music artist.

So I think that we're all entrepreneurs in that way.

And my job is to take their art and make it great and expose it and exploit it.

Yeah.

To their liking.

Right.

But I. I don't think I could go work for somebody.

Yeah, I think I may have tried that, but I don't think it lasted very long.

Yeah.

And I hear that all the time from leaders.

Yeah, yeah.

There's so many leaders who come on this show and like, I am completely unemployable.

There's no way anybody would hire me.

So it's so common that I hear that from high level or high performers such as yourself.

That's amazing.

Right?

I guess one of the things that you're legendary for, that you're very known for, is your ability to just, you know, spot.

Not just spot and identify, but then build that talent into something that's absolutely incredible.

I would love to maybe just understand a little bit about how you've been able to do that.

Like, I guess it's innate to who you are.

It's part of your skill set.

The fact that you've essentially managed the Tragically Hip since they were a band to manage and took them all the way to today is absolutely incredible.

Were you able to see who they would be in the beginning?

Like, and I get that.

Like when I look at companies and sometimes I'll ask them, did you see what your company was going to become, the impact you were going to have in the world?

And many times they tell me, they say no, but I believed we could.

I believed we could.

I couldn't see what was going to happen.

I didn't I wasn't completely sure, but I had an idea.

Is that what it feels like when you're identifying bands for the first time?

I'd love to maybe just know.

What were your initial thoughts the first time that you saw the Tragically Hip.

So Alan, Greg and I had been given a.

A cassette tape.

And this story's covered in the.

In the novel Dress Rehearsal doc series that.

That's on.

On.

On Amazon Prime.

Amazing documentary, by the way.

Incredible.

Yeah.

Mike Downey did a great job directing and producing that.

And Alan and I had received a cassette we liked.

What we heard was raw, and we were like, let's set up a gig.

And first notes.

Gord Downey opens his mouth, the band kicks in, and we look at each other and I'm like, we gotta sign these guys, like tonight.

And you can say, you know, and you can say, you.

You seen it until you see it.

And when you see it for the first time is when you go, oh, that's the bar.

This is how good you have to be.

Because I had been a manager for five years already, and I had signed acts.

I had acts signed to rca and I, you know, I had managed different bands over the years, and I thought I knew what the bar was.

I thought I knew what great was until I saw that.

And then I was like, oh, okay.

And I can't say it's innate, but what I can say, and you probably have experienced this yourself, Kelly, is that for me, it was always this involuntary response that happens when you see greatness and it's not something you're conscious of.

It just happens.

You feel it in your body, right?

You feel it.

You're like, whoa, what's happening to me here?

Something just affected me.

And it's.

And it's very true.

It's no different than the first time.

Maybe you heard your favorite band and it made you go.

Made you feel something that you didn't feel before you heard it.

And I think that that became the litmus test for me.

Like, when I was on.

When I was on Canadian Idol, people would say to me, how do you know?

And I said, you know when you know?

And that was always the judge for me.

Is this making me feel something that I didn't feel before I.

Before they came in the room?

And so I.

That became sort of my judgment at that point is like, oh, now I understand what this thing is.

I had been managing for five years, like I said, and I had never actually felt that before.

I was just looking at talent and seeing what I could do with it and hustling and doing my thing, but when I saw that, I was like, okay, this is serious, this is next level.

And Alan came from a research and marketing background.

A lot of the early stuff we were doing, a lot of it came from his ideas of positioning because he had worked with politicians and he likes to say his job was to help politicians find their voice.

Voice.

And we applied some of the same tactics to bands because it was all about reaching the public.

So it was a way like, how do we position this?

How do we do this?

And we identified certain things, especially with the hip about them early, that we knew were going to be the way to kind of reach the public.

And a lot of it went against the grain.

A lot of the stuff.

We would come to the record company with our ideas and they would think we were crazy because no one had ever said these kind of things to them.

And, and it ended up paying off.

And they would, afterwards they'd be like, wow, you guys were really right on that.

Yeah, because we knew what we had, but we always took a different road.

But I would definitely credit Alan in the beginning with, with providing a lot of counsel, which is why we became partners, you know, because he had a very strategic mind and I was the guy that could get shit done over time.

And he says this all the time to me.

He says, you know, you're, you're the fastest learner I ever met.

Because I remember he would like, I wasn't really into wine.

I wasn't.

And we would go out, we would drink wine, he would tell me about wine.

And then, you know, six months later, I know more about wine than he knew about it.

And he would like what I said, well, I'm getting into it.

You know, you have that, you have that obsessive personality too.

Hey, you know what it is?

I'm innately curious.

And I think that's also really important.

If you're going to be an entrepreneur.

You have to be curious all the time.

Like, I am this sponge for information.

I just want to know.

Like, I'm 67 and I'm teaching 20 year olds about tech stuff that I'm reading about.

Like I, you know, I do these meetings, I do these meetings with, with the record company every two weeks with, with about the hip.

And I'm always bringing things to the table that, that these young people in the, in the room have never heard of.

And it's because I'm constantly reading, I'm constantly learning, so to say, you know, you said earlier you know, I have all this knowledge and all this other stuff.

The fact is, is I'm always learning.

And tactics is I always want to learn.

Yes, all the time.

Yeah.

And so how.

Look, what are other people doing?

How is this working?

How can we make that work for me?

You know, how can we work that, make that work for my clients?

I think that's a big part of being an entrepreneur, is you have to be curious.

If you stop being curious, you stop growing.

Yes, yes, yes.

I think too.

And I just wanted to kind of mention as well, in business development, one of the greatest assets that you can have is when you're working with a product that you can absolutely 100% get behind.

I always tell people that if you don't believe in your products or your services, you're in the wrong industry.

And I wonder, just kind of based on our conversations, when you said that, I saw greatness.

When I saw them play for the first time.

I hadn't recognized it before then.

I saw greatness.

At that moment.

You believed.

And I wonder how much your belief in that greatness helped you scale that band to be, I would say, the number one recognized Canadian band of all time.

Well, especially me, because I can't say that for every manager, but I can't work with an act that I don't have that belief in.

There are a lot of management companies that just take on a whole pile of acts and they, some of them are going to be big, maybe not a lot of mid level, and they're just acting like an agency almost where they're just like generating revenue.

But it's not really this sort of holistic career management thing.

That's why I don't have a ton of bands, because that's not what I do.

My philosophy is you go all in.

I was talking to a guy the other day at the club where I play tennis and he's, he's quite an entrepreneur.

And, and we were, we were talking about little things and I said to him, I said, you know, a lot of people say, don't sweat the small stuff.

And I say to him, and I said, you know, but I think it's all about the small stuff.

And he said, you're absolutely right.

He goes, you have to look after details.

And I'm a detail guy.

And I think what happens, that only happens because you really believe in it and you want it all to be perfect.

Now, perfect's a tough word because there are a lot of people will say, you know, you alienate people when you become A perfectionist.

But it's like, hey, this is all we got.

And that's the other thing is, like, I'm a defender because most of the people I deal with outside of the group get a paycheck on Fridays, and I don't get a paycheck on Fridays, and neither does the guys in the band.

That's right.

And so.

So they can.

There are people that can accuse me of being micromanaging and perfectionists and all this other stuff.

It says, yeah, because this is all we got.

Like, this is our thing, so it's gotta be according to our rules, not your rules.

And so the belief.

I can't do it unless I have that belief, because otherwise I'll get bored and I'll move on.

And the other thing is, it's the.

Thing that keeps you invested.

But the other thing is, I've taken on acts over the years and they lose the belief no matter how much I believe.

And I've had to sit them down and I'm like, I'm taking a commission, but you get most of the money.

Why should I believe more in what you're doing than you when you own the business?

And if they start to lose the belief, then I can't do anything, then I'm out, because I can't.

I can't do it.

I can't work with them if they're not all in.

So I always like to say, there's no plan B in this.

We're talking about artists.

But that exact same thing applies to Fortune 500 companies, right?

If the CEOs and the leadership lose belief in the company, the company's toast.

There's nothing that anybody supporting them can do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was funny because I watched Dragons Den just because I like to see some of these ideas and entrepreneurs and it's a fun.

It's a fun thing.

I know most of those deals never get done.

Like, they never.

96% of them don't close.

But it's always interesting to see the responses.

And it's funny how many times the entrepreneurs are pitching something and they.

They have an idea and they have a business, but they actually have this other job because they're not all in.

And some of the Dragons are like, hey, you're not all in.

Why do you expect me to be in if you're not all in?

Yep.

Yep.

There's also a lot of.

A lot of contradictions.

Some of the people say, I'm all in and you're investing in me.

And they're like, well, I'M on invest in the product.

It's like, you know, I, I, I, I, I think that, but it's an interesting, for me, it's an interesting sort of case study to watch how people see themselves, how, how the investors, the dragons, whatever they want to call, treat the investments.

The difference between what I do and a product is we're making art.

And art has a visceral reaction.

And if I buy a new pair of shoes, I may get a visceral reaction the day they arrive and the first time I put them on, but after that it's kind of over, right?

Sure.

But when you're working with artists and you're selling, and I even hate the use the term selling, when you're putting art out into the public that has the ability to make people feel something for a long time over and over again.

So I take that part very seriously.

And it's not a product per se to me.

In fact, I refuse to allow people to refer to my clients names and their thing as a brand.

Well, that's your brand.

And I'm like, we're not a product.

We make art and we make art for public consumption.

But don't call us a product because most products get used up and disposed of.

This doesn't, it's a very different thing.

And you know, this Live Nation study I referenced before, they said that one of the things that came out of it is music is the number one thing that people do for entertainment, more than movies, more than games, more than anything else is music.

So you're moving people, you're affecting people, you're creating relationships with people.

You know, people share their music with each other.

They, you know, you go on to any of the social media platforms, there's always music playing.

With every one of those posts, people are putting music in the background.

Can you imagine a film watching a film with no music?

Right.

Take away all the music from the film.

Right.

It would be horrible.

Right.

So it's a part of our everyday lives.

It's everything we do.

We get into an elevator, we go into a bank, we go into a hotel, there's music playing.

We go into a restaurant, we go into a bar, there's music playing.

You go to a sporting event, there's music playing all the time.

So it's not a product, it's art that creates emotional response.

And that's a very, that you have to take that seriously and have fun.

Yes, yes.

It's timeless, right?

Like music is absolutely timeless.

You mentioned, you know, you mentioned the grandparents taking their Kids.

I took my kids a year ago to Kiss.

They were on their final tour and they were coming through Edmonton and I just wanted them to experience Kiss.

The funny thing is, Jake, you were talking about how you, you fell asleep probably as a kid at six at the Beatles.

My kids fell asleep at a Kiss concert shoot while they're shooting fireworks and pyrotechnics on stage.

I have no idea how they.

No, no, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't fall asleep at the Beatles.

It's just, it was all, remember, there were no PA systems really.

They used the house PA that they would make, you know, goals scored by announcements.

So like, you didn't hear them because of all the screaming, right?

You didn't hear them.

That was one of the reasons.

Yeah, but that was one of the reasons why the, the Beatles stopped touring is because the technology for the live shows hadn't caught up with what they could do in the studio.

And so they couldn't recreate their records, they couldn't do what they put on records.

And that's one of the reasons they stopped touring is that they didn't have the equipment to, to overpower the noise of the audience.

Too much success.

People love them just too much.

Yeah, yeah, that's a horrible thing, right?

Yeah, but horrible.

Interesting, interesting, interesting.

You say about, about timeless.

One of the things I say to my clients today is that, you know, because of the streaming platforms, everything you've put out over your whole career is new to somebody.

And so instead of, instead of saying, I already made that record, I don't need to really talk about that record, I don't need to push that record.

It's like if you want to continue to have new fans, you know, the new 19 year old, come and listen to your music.

Those people, the first time a 19 year old hears up to here by the Tragically Hip, that's a new record to them.

That's a brand new experience for them.

Yes.

So you have to recognize that.

And the barrier for them to be able to experience that is so low now than it used to be.

You know, if you think a band like the Hip have 15, 16 records out, if you can count the live records and more if you count all the box sets and everything.

But if you would expect in the old days, old days, a record store to, to carry every one of those records in CD and vinyl and multiple copies, that would never happen because they couldn't do it.

They don't have the space and they wouldn't want to have that exposure of having to carry that many records.

So what would they carry?

They'd carry the top five or the top six albums, maybe, if you're lucky.

Yes.

Well, today a young fan can sample, whether it's on a streaming platform or YouTube, they can sample anything they want and decide then if they want to be a fan.

And then if they want to buy a vinyl as a collector's item or a CD or whatever, they can do that.

Because we still sell vinyl and we still sell CDs, if you can believe that.

Especially the CDs.

Yeah, yeah.

And so everything old is new to somebody.

A third of it now is under the age of 34.

2024 was the 40th anniversary of the band.

So there are people that have become fans of the band that never saw the band.

Next year will be 10 years since the final tour.

So there's a huge.

Wow audience.

Insane.

That never actually saw them play live because they're discovering this music for the first time.

The same way kids were discovering Led Zeppelin and the Beatles and Jimi Hendrix.

To this day, that's still happening.

That's why I think it's the greatest time for music in that way, where bands and artists have an opportunity to grow their audience because there's this demand for it.

Well, I think that's a great segue into, you know, what does the future of Canadian music look like?

I'm a millennial.

I love 80s rock.

I love, you know, Kiss.

I love Guns N Roses.

I love Big Wreck, which is a band you managed.

I love the Tragically Hip.

Like I. I love these bands.

And, I don't know, like every person getting older, we have our eras we love.

I find myself going back to 90s and.

And 80s bands all the time when I'm listening to my music.

But that's your comfort zone.

That's right.

It's my comfort zone.

Yeah.

You mentioned before there was a bit of a barrier to entry to music once upon a time.

And you really needed those managers to get out there and find you investors, find you ways to get your records on air and get you deals with Universal or whatever else.

In some ways, wouldn't that have been a better system?

There's the management side, but let's just look at the economics of it.

The idea that there's so much more out there goes without saying.

But what hasn't changed and it hasn't changed over the years is you gotta be great.

You gotta be better than great to cut through.

Love it.

And you know that expression, the cream rises to the top and that's where you gotta be.

And so there's always gonna be the one hit wonders, which there were back then too.

There were lots of one hit wonders.

Ben had one song, nothing ever happened after that.

And then you have career acts and that's what I'm interested in.

And so I don't depend on one hit.

I look at it as an overall organic kind of thing.

So you still have to be great and if you're not great, it won't matter.

So as much as the stuff is out there, the fans at the end of the day are the ones that are making the decision.

And if someone like you find something you really love, you're going to tell someone about it because you feel like you want to share this great thing that you found, right?

So I don't, I also don't look at it as, as Canadian music per se because because of the streaming platforms, they're global reach now I don't have to worry about getting my record out in Holland or getting my record out in the uk.

My record's out, it's out around the world now.

It's about how do I get market it, how do I reach those fans?

So that's another story.

So data is important today.

And the other thing is the streaming platforms give you all this data like you don't see it.

You can see how many plays and song gets.

But I get other data, I get background, I get, I get granular data, okay?

I get granular data from all the streaming platforms on where we're getting things and where we're seeing things and who they are and the demographics of them and everything else.

And I can market accordingly to those people.

And because the, a lot of the social platforms allow a lot more targeted marketing, you know, including YouTube.

Because I, I, YouTube's one of those where it's not really social, but it is kind of social.

Do you know what I mean?

Because there is, you know, people can comment and share everything, right?

But it's not in the same way.

And it actually is the biggest streaming platform in the world.

Like people don't realize that a lot of the world, they listen to music on YouTube.

They're not paying for Spotify or Apple or Amazon music or, you know, Tidal and all the rest of them, they're not paying for it.

They're listening on YouTube because it's free and anybody can listen to it.

And it's become a great video platform.

It's but become an amazing platform to put videos and long form things on too today, right?

Yes, but you still have to be great.

You still have to have something that people are going to want to tell their friends about.

We used to have, you know, before you would go to radio and radio would play your record and you'd move yourself up the charts based on how many spins you'd get across the country and things like that.

But if it never sold, then we would refer to it as a turntable hit, which meant it got a lot of airplay.

But the fans never actually reacted to it.

You know, it sounded good on the radio and everything, but no one ever felt the need to go out and buy it.

And so that was a really good indicator on whether you had something talent.

Is what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah.

Like greatness is greatness.

Greatness is greatness.

You know, the shitty stuff falls by the wayside.

It won't last.

So that was always my thing is like someone would say, oh, did you hear about this new act?

And blah, blah.

I said, talk to me in five years.

If we're still talking about them in five years, then we got something to talk about.

And this wasn't dismissing it.

Yeah.

But for me it was always, the jury's still out.

Right.

You know, I remember when, when I was doing Idol and Justin Bieber was this big thing, he was starting to blow up and because I was on tv, the media would want to interview me about music and things like that and, and they would say, what do you think about this Justin Bieber guy?

I said, look, great, he's got a great voice, right.

He's off to a great start.

And I guess we'll have to see in five years what's going to happen with him.

And that was always my thing.

And it wasn't that I didn't think he was good.

It was that was he going to last?

And now he's proven that he is going to last.

But there's plenty that didn't.

Yes, there's plenty that didn't.

So I think, I think that's how you have to look at it.

Yeah.

There's more, but the cream rises to the top.

Yes.

Greatness is greatness.

I love that.

It's like.

That might be one of my favorite sayings ever now.

You can use it.

You can use it.

Jake, this has been absolutely incredible.

I just, you know, I want to be respectful of your time.

We're closing in on our hour.

I guess the only thing that I would maybe like to just acknowledge before we wrap up today would be that, you know, with.

With the loss of Gord Downey, you didn't just, you know, run into a challenge with the band.

You lost a 40 year friend.

And all I wanted to do was publicly acknowledge for you that I'm very sorry for your loss.

You know, obviously the band suffered massive PA pain from that, but I don't think everybody realized how much pain you must have suffered as well, being such a close friend to him.

And so I just wanted to maybe mention as well that I'm very sorry for your loss of a very good and longtime friend.

I appreciate that.

We.

You.

We.

Alan was my partner for that whole time, but he stopped working with me on the band in 94.

He decided to step away.

And then the band and I split.

And so while I stayed, I managed Gord on his solo records.

Post the split.

I still managed him for first two solo records, but then I didn't.

I didn't work with them for a number of years and I didn't work with them on the final tour.

That was somebody else.

But I stayed in touch with them and I stayed in touch with Gord on a regular basis all the time.

And so I wasn't immersed in it when all of that was going down.

I was sort of one step removed.

But I managed to go out.

When they did the final tour, I flew out to Vancouver and they started in Victoria and then they did two nights in Vancouver and I went to the two Vancouver shows.

Wow.

And I managed to spend some time with Gord there.

And I hadn't really spent a lot of time with him until then.

And we were sitting at the after party at this hotel bar that they took over on the first night in Vancouver.

And we were just sitting at the bar talking.

And he says, he goes, I don't remember everything, but I do remember the good stuff.

Yeah.

Because his memory, that was one of the big problems.

Right.

And I think he was trying to say, like, it's, this has been pretty cool.

Now, that was 30 years at the time.

Right.

Because we met in 86.

And so I managed to go to six of the shows and go to the final show in Kingston.

But as his health declined more and more over the following year, it became harder to communicate with him.

And so it was tough for everybody and it was tough for the country.

The country grieved, you know.

So the good thing was that I, that for all the grieving, none of us were doing it alone.

We all got to do it with a whole bunch of other people.

And I think that was sort of one of the great things about it.

Next year is going to be 10 years since the final tour.

Wow, that's hard to believe because it really does feel like yesterday, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we have a whole bunch of really cool stuff planned for next year.

I just can't talk about it right now, but I'll leave you with that.

Okay, well, how's that?

Yeah, I'll be following you and trying to keep up with it and yeah, I just appreciate you.

I appreciate what you've done for the Canadian music industry and I look forward to seeing what comes next from the great Jake Gold.

Thank you so much for joining us today and just giving us insight into behind the curtain to an industry that most people have no idea what's going on.

So I appreciate it greatly.

Oh, you're welcome.

Take care.

Until next time.

You've been listening to the business development podcast and we'll see you on the next 100.

This has been the Business Development Podcast with Kelly Kennedy.

His passion and his specialization is in customer relationship generation and business development.

The show is brought to you by Capital Business Development, your business development specialist.

For more, we invite you to the website at www.capitalbd.ca.

see you next time on the business development podcast.