Prepare to be inspired by our upcoming episode of Inside the Auditorium Podcast featuring Brooke Yang, Head of Audit - Models, at Lloyd's Banking Group. Join us as Brooke shares invaluable insights into the world of internal audit, with a focus on empowering women and attracting diverse talent to the profession.  

• Breaking Barriers: Brooke Yang discusses why internal audit is a prime area for women to build their careers. She highlights essential skills such as attention to detail, empathy, and effective communication that are often associated with women. Explore how internal audit offers a supportive environment with greater representation of women in senior leadership, providing a clear pathway for career progression. 
• Attracting and Retaining Female Talent: Discover strategies for attracting and retaining women and younger females in internal audit. Brooke emphasizes the importance of flexible working arrangements to accommodate personal circumstances. She also discusses the significance of diverse representation in leadership, effective network programs, and access to mentors to help women overcome hurdles and enhance their skills and confidence. 
• Navigating Model Risk in Internal Audit: Explore the complexities of model risk within internal audit with Brooke Yang. Gain insights into the qualifications and skills required for roles in model risk auditing. Understand the importance of a diverse skill set, including technical expertise in model development and validation, along with soft skills such as communication and stakeholder management. 

Don't miss this enlightening episode featuring Brooke Yang! Subscribe to Inside the Auditorium Podcast now to stay informed and inspired in the world of internal audit.  

Note: The views expressed by Brooke are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of her employer. 

and welcome to this episode of Inside the Auditorium. Maybe you can just introduce yourself and let us know, the audience know what you currently do.

Yeah, no hi Hazel. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here today. So I am Brooke Yang. I'm currently the head of audit for Model Risk at Lloyds Banking Group. A bit about myself. I was born in China. I grew up in Australia and now I currently work in the UK and I'm a mother of two, a four year old daughter and a two year old son. That's me in a nutshell.

And tell me, because when you say that you're from China, how come you ended up in Australia then?

Sure, and how come you ended up in London then?

Yeah, I don't know. I think Australia is a great place to live and work and I think, you know, at some point I just want it more challenging. I want it to travel and visit the world. So I felt London was a good base to be in, to be able to travel around Europe.

Sure. So you actually came here via travelling then, not through work.

Yeah, no, not at all. I actually just packed two suitcases, rented out my flat, sold my car and then came in couch served.

Oh, fantastic. And I know obviously that you've now married an English man, right? So you're here for English to England to stay.

Well, actually Canadian and therefore we're stuck in England because, you know, which way do we go?

So, can you, just for the audience, I know that we had Shreya on our first episode, on our first series, but perhaps you could just explain to the audience that doesn't really understand what models are, what internal audit for models is.

Yeah, so models, I think of it quite simply. A model would have inputs, a calculation with assumptions and some uncertainty associated with a calculation and outcomes and output. So models are essentially used in all processes within banks in every business area. So there's risk associated with the use of models, particularly when models are not being used as per design.

or there are errors coming out of the model and inappropriate use of the model outputs to inform business decisions.

Sure, and because your bachelor's was in actuarial studies, right? And I know that most people that study as an actuary go into just pure insurance roles, sometimes as a role. Could you explain to the audience of how you got into banking then from doing actuarial studies?

Yeah, so I think having the statistical knowledge from my university studies helped me get into risk management actually. So I'm from a market risk background, started off with market risk management and then market risk model development and understanding statistical approaches was the stepping stone into market risk model development.

Okay, and then so coming from a first, second line role, what made you go into internal audit then and stay there?

Yeah, completely by chance, I would have to say. When I started internal audit, I think I have very little understanding of what the profession was about. I was a quant, leading a small team of quants. And model risk management at the time was a relatively new discipline. And my previous organization was trying to build out a new model risk audit team. And so they were looking for quants who had model.

development or validation experience to apply to audit methodology. And on the flip side, you know, I was a quant, but leading a small team of quants, I understood that there are a lot of more technically experienced and able quants out there. And where I was adding value was actually aligning the quant work with business strategy and linking the communication gap between very technical people and senior management.

So I just wanted to enhance my soft skills at that point, and it felt like the perfect job to do that.

And so therefore, would you sort of recommend that most quants do a stint in internal audit to sort of improve communication and what the benefits?

Yeah, that was definitely the idea at the time. I had no idea seven years later I'd still be in internal audit, but I knew it would be a good area to enhance those soft skills. Communication, both verbal and written, and stakeholder management. I think for a quant, if you want to be successful in your role and be a senior leader in the quant world, those are essential skills.

And just for any quant that wants to get into internal order, do you think that you've lost some of your technical capabilities from going from such a quantitative position into model risk or that's enhanced it?

Yeah, so I think it depends on what the individual wants. So as you step into internal audit, you get a much wider breadth of exposure to a wide range of models. So that's very different to when you're in a quant role, when you would specialize and deep dive into one particular type. So for me, I wanted the wider exposure. I wanted to not just work with market risk models, but also in PEM and IFS9 models, credit risk. And I wanted that.

understanding of cross the risk types so that are more aligned to the business as a whole and not just one particular area.

And you mentioned that obviously you've got two very young children and you know you've had a great career and really working your way up into a senior role in quite a short time I feel. How do you juggle having such young children and doing a senior position?

Yeah, so I mean, it's not easy. For me, there's two tips. One is make sure you have a regular schedule. Children's throw in a lot of uncertainty on a day-to-day basis, but if you have a rough schedule, it makes it more manageable. Secondly is get all the help you can get. Don't be shy, tap into family, tap into friends.

Tap into pay child care if you can afford it. Tap into neighbors. You know, I'll certainly be doing all of those.

And what do you think, sort of, why do you think internal audit might be a great area for, of the business for a woman to build her career in?

Well, I think for an internal audit role, there are several essential skills and qualities that are typically associated with women, such as attention to detail, empathy, having empathy, effective communication, ability to multitask, willingness to collaborate. Obviously, we shouldn't stereotype that anybody who has these skills and qualities, I think internal audit is a great environment for you.

But we are known to have these qualities quite naturally. And on top of that, I think it's a great area because it's an area where we see a much larger women representation in senior leadership. So it provides us with the motivation and confidence that we can get up there and there's a pathway for our career.

Sure, sure. And what sort of what's helped you in your career then?

I think the people. It's helped me that I've always had really good people around me. I think we should all try and surround ourselves with people who value us, who will listen and give timely and honest feedback and challenge us with the purpose of uplifting us and intelligent people, diligent people of good influence.

Yeah, because it's my, I was having the conversation yesterday when I was recording another podcast, it's much, you know, when you're very good at your job, it's, it's sometimes it's not as easy to transition into a management role. They, they require much different qualities, right?

Exactly. And I think that's the good thing about being an internal audit, because you do have access to a lot of people, especially senior people. So having the wider web network, you have potentials for mentors, potentials for sponsors.

So who's sort of been quite instrumental in your career or a good mentor?

I've had many, I think, all the senior people I've worked with in the past, I've taken really good advice from. So too many to name, but probably my dad is also one of them. For someone I respect and always ask for advice, he probably doesn't have any idea what I do for work. But he's helped me along the way with a lot of the thought processes that I need. For example, when I got the job offer from Lloyd's, I did...

Oh.

think, is it the right thing to do? Firstly, I've got two young children, can I juggle the additional responsibilities? I was quite also content in my previous role and I felt I was still needed there. There was still a lot of work to do. But he helped me think through that and made me realise I have to do the right thing for my career. The fear of failure isn't backed by evidence. I was doing my job really well, so if I don't try, I will never know if I succeed.

And out of interest, is it what made you change positions? Was it for a bigger role or?

Yeah, so I was a director managing the UK and Asia audit teams for Model Risk. So already there was quite a lot of people to lead and quite a big remit and scope. But at Lloyd's what they were offering is the global perspective is, you know, I can come in as the head of audit where I can, with almost a blank sheet of paper, come up with a strategy for the team.

Yeah. And do you think there was anything differently that you would have done in your career or changed?

Well, I think coming to the UK was one of the best things I've done. Just the experience working abroad, being able to travel around Europe and just meet people from so much different backgrounds and experiences. I wish I had maybe done that earlier or perhaps work in another country, so to even increase that exposure.

Yeah, that's been a common thing, actually, throughout all of the podcasts. And in terms of a lot of things, they changed with the pandemic. And sort of, did that make life easier for you or sort of what does that look like now for you?

Yeah, so I think there's definitely pros and cons with the pandemic. I mean, it's worked out okay for me, but I do think the pandemic has made people more inward looking and, you know, the less feel the less need to socialize. They want to be more self-sufficient. So what that has done to the workplace is that it's had an impact on collaboration. Remote working also makes it harder to build that the relationship within teams and with stakeholders.

So that's the cons. But on the other hand, I do think hybrid working is great, especially for me as a mother of two. It allows me to better juggle between work and life. And collaboration is important, but we also need the time to focus and execute. And sometimes being able to work from home allows that.

Yeah, sure. And in terms, does that mean that you do have to jump on your laptop sort of after you put the children to bed or are you sort of more get up early and work?

Yeah, a little bit of both, but that's why having a reliable schedule is important. I know my kids will get up at seven in the morning, so if there's something I need to do, it will be before seven a.m. I know that they will go to bed at seven p.m. at night, or roughly around there. It's getting later and later. Because I know that, I'm happy to log up at five to make sure I attend to them 100% between five.

and between five and seven until they go to bed. And then there's time to refocus on other things.

Sure. And do you think that, you know, how we would attract more women or younger females to internal debt?

Yeah, so as I said, the flexible working arrangements, allowing for that is important. As I said, I work quite effectively, but the schedule I have now is very different to what I had before. So allowing people to flex according to their personal circumstances will mean that we will attract and retain the talent that we need.

A diverse representation in leadership is also very important because it inspires us to know that people of all different backgrounds and experiences can get to the top. When we don't see that representation, you will doubt whether this company is the right one for you, whether it will value you and the things that you can bring to the table. That's when talents may not come to you.

Sure.

women, particularly a network program, an effective network program is important, because as a woman, I know we have several hurdles that we have to jump through in our life. For example, childbirth, childcare, and later on menopause, just to name a few. So having that network allows us to have access to things that will enhance our skills, enhance our confidence and network.

mentors that will help us get through those hurdles.

Sure. Okay. And with regards to model risk then, would you, being an auditor within model risk, would you have done your qualifications any differently or do you feel that, you know, it is good for people that are thinking about a role within internal audit for model risk to actually come from model risk or being internal audit and then learning model risk?

Yeah, so we ask for a lot for a model risk internal auditor. When I am hiring for new members to the team, I'm looking for model development experience, model validation experience, and ideally audit experience. But also, as I said, the soft skills are very important, communication skills, stakeholder management skills, project management skills. So it's a lot to ask for in one person. And we know we will never...

get that 100%. And so hitting some of those right notes, demonstrating that you have an understanding in models in the technical technicalities of the models, but also understanding the risk and control perspective of models, understanding the model lifecycle, and just willing to learn, I think is a very important aspect. So yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I'll speak from a models and model risk perspective. I think the two key risks that will impact us will be climate risk and technology when it comes to AI and ML. So I think climate risk, we're all coming to terms in to assessing the risk and the impact it has on organizations. But what it will mean is that modeling will need to enhance.

enhancing our existing models as well as building new models to make those assessments. So, you know, not having these traditional models, not having these models historically that we understand, we will need to learn what these new models will need to look like. And when it comes to AI and ML, you know, it's going at such a fast pace. We need to make sure model risk management framework is keeping up to pace.

So what skills do you think then are going to be in demand for people to maybe go and go and train because this area is not going to go away, right, and it's going to get bigger?

Yeah, so whereas in my area, there's a lot of technical skills that are required, I think in internal audit in general, what's important is getting in people who have business skills. So audit mindset we can learn on the job, but having the business knowledge and acumen is a real plus. It will help us get deeper.

deeper testing and better coverage in our internal audit practices.

And do you feel that sort of this is going to be a problem that the internal industry is going to face?

Well, I don't think so. As you know, my team, I've got a team of 14. Most of the team members have come from first and second line. So they've come with that business knowledge and risk management knowledge.

And do they, coming from first and second line, so when people sort of move from within the team, do they move, what's the opportunity for sort of internal mobility, or do you find that people only stay in internal audit with those skills for a certain amount of time and then wanna move back into the first, second line?

Well, I would say there is a healthy convection of talents between the three lines of defence and that's exactly what we want. We're bringing in people from the first and second line because we want that business acumen. But at the same time, as internal auditors have done some time in the third line and they want to experience something new and they move into the first and second line, they're bringing in the risk and control mindset and the risk management skills.

to enhance the capabilities of the business. So it's very healthy.

Sure, sure. So what do you think your biggest achievements been then within internal audit?

That's a tough one. I hope their biggest achievement is still yet to come. But probably the teams, the teams I've led and the team that I'm leading now. I think we've done really well in recruiting, getting in all the right people with the right skill sets and mindsets. Everyone is really enthusiastic and motivated by the challenges ahead. But I think more than that, we've managed

to facilitate a really effective way of working where there's a trusted collaborative environment where people are challenging each other and helping each other out to make us better as individuals. So I'm really seeing that. I'm seeing individuals grow. I've seen individuals get their very well-deserved promotions. And at the end of the day, that means better productivity for the team as a whole.

Right. And what do you think makes you sort of such a good manager then in terms of, because quite a lot of your team got promoted, right?

Yeah, big shout out to JB who just recently got promoted to VP. I'm very, very proud. I don't know. I think I need to ask my team members, my colleagues, what they think. But I think I'm pretty casual and down to earth. That makes it easy for my team members to come to me with ideas and problems. So I think that's probably the biggest thing.

And so looking back throughout sort of your career or, you know, just in terms of your life experiences, is there any advice you'd give for your younger self? And if so, what would that be?

Yeah, I think be open, be curious. I think when in my younger self, in my early career, I was much more focused at the task at hand and the tasks that I'd be good at. So I think having a more open mind and be open to not just tasks that you know you would excel in, but tasks that will give you the learning experience.

probably would have widened my knowledge and experience from much earlier on. So that would be my advice to all young people, be very open-minded.

And do you think as well that might be culturally as well? Because, you know, coming from China or Australia, then London, I mean, you know, there's so many cultural differences there. What do you think the sort of biggest one has been?

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the culture and family upbringing has a big role to play. You know, as a child I've been taught to be modest, to be very academic and be very good at what you do. But I think what that means is I probably lack the confidence to go outside of my comfort zone at the earlier stage.

at my earlier stage of my career. But I think coming to London really, you know, I was putting myself out of my comfort zone to start with, so it really meant that I was more willing to try new things.

That's fantastic. Well, look, it's been great speaking to you. I'll finish on a quick fire round if you don't mind. Ha ha ha. So tell me, what do you love working, what do you love best, working from home or in the office?

Yeah, of course.

Oh no, I can't answer that one because it needs to be a good mix of the two.

Yeah, okay. And tell me what's the best place you've visited and why.

Another hard one because Hazel, what I haven't told you is I love travelling. And well, I love travelling before kids and you know, I would go to perhaps 20 plus destinations in a year. So it's really hard to pick out a favourite one. Probably I would say Norway for hiking. Wonderful scenery, wonderful place to hike. Long ones and short ones.

Wow, okay.

But I can't dismiss Japan. Japan is one of my favorite places, but probably for different reasons. I love the food there. Amazing food. And I had one of my best trips in India for a different cultural experience.

And have you travelled a lot with your job as well in terms of going to do audits and do you do that now?

Not so much. Well, I think before the pandemic, there was more opportunities to travel. So I did travel to New York and India with the previous firm because we have teams there and businesses there. Not so much just yet, but I hope to visit some of our offices around the UK. Hopefully Edinburgh is the next stop.

Fantastic. And what's your favourite way to spend a day off?

Oh, well, if it's not hiking, it's probably a day at the spa.

Nice. And what current book are you reading or podcast you're listening to?

So I actually listen to podcasts on a day-to-day basis, whether it's The Guardian or New York Times. But aside from that, a good read right now is a novel by Yagyasi called Homegoing. It's a pretty intense book actually. It's about the impact of slavery on multiple generations, but it's good learning.

Excellent. What's the title? If you were going to write a biography of yourself, what would be the title?

Gosh!

I know, I've been thinking of one for me since I wrote this question, but yeah, I mean, what a hard one.

Yeah.

You've got really tough questions. I don't know, Jack of all trades, maybe.

I like to dip into many things so yeah but definitely I'll be thinking about that today.

All right, Brooke, well look, thank you so much for your time. It's been wonderful to speak to you.

No thank you, it's been fun. Thanks Hazel.