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00:00 Intro & Personal Updates

01:19 Parenting and Church Community

03:14 Bible Reading: Genesis 16-18

04:06 Discussion on Ishmael and Isaac

08:14 Theological Debate: Infant Baptism

17:28 Concluding Thoughts and Prayer

18:25 Outro and Podcast Information

Hey everybody.

2

Welcome back to another edition

of the daily Bible podcast.

3

It is a Friday happy Friday, everybody.

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In fact, it's a specifically happy Friday

and your families and it passed her up.

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Yes.

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I now have two teenagers in my home.

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And I feel old.

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Yeah.

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Well, you look old too.

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Thank you.

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Yeah.

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And by old, you mean

distinguished, mature, elder.

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Yes.

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All of those things.

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Sagacious sagacious is my favorite one.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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All of those things.

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Yeah.

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So happy birthday, Adam.

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Happy birthday, Adam.

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We're grateful for you son.

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May you have 13 more years and many more.

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Yeah.

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I'm glad you added many more.

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It's 26.

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It's still.

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Yeah, no for sure.

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Yeah.

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I know my, my daughter

turned 13 back in June.

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I know you weren't here for that.

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You were gone on vacation, so yeah.

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You couldn't shout her out.

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I know we have teens though.

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Now.

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Teens, plural, plural.

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Yeah.

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What did you.

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We're up in the air for she's a jolly.

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She's not a fellow.

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Fellow wet.

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A little while, you know, you would

say that you would still say that

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for she's a jolly good fellow.

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You would say that for sure.

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Would.

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Yes, that seems masculine.

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Just chime in folks.

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If you had anyone lift you in the

air, singing the song and you're

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a female, please let us know.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, How old are you?

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If you had somebody.

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Well, I don't know.

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I think I might've seen it on, I love Lucy

or, you know, I've seen an Andy Griffith.

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Exactly.

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And as buddy.

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Anyways.

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Yeah.

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So.

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Oh, man, what a

responsibility is parenting.

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And, uh, we, we.

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I just, I'm thankful for our church.

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I'm thankful that, uh, we

were just talking about this a

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little bit, just that there are.

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People who love our kids and love if

you're a parent out there listening to

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this, and you're part of our church.

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There are people in the church that

love your kids that are committed

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to helping you raise them in the

discipline and instruction of the Lord.

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It's a hard time to do that as

a Christian parent and do it.

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Well, and you're not

going to do it perfectly.

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Uh, just know that nobody's

going to raise the perfect kid.

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Um, And yet Mary would say she did though.

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Okay.

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Fair.

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Jesus juke.

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Literal Jesus juke.

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Yeah, but, uh, but it's, and

that's why it's so good to have a

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church family, community groups.

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And we're talking about that this Sunday,

we're talking about the importance

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of being connected to a church.

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I mean, I know relationships

with people, right?

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And that's one thing about, you know,

some people probably think, well, I

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go to church and I've got my family

that goes to church with me, or I

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got my, you know, my friend that

goes to church with me, I'm good.

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I've got one or two.

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Now you need relationships that are deeper

relationships with people that aren't

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flesh and blood that you're gonna be

able to sit down with and be like, Hey,

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I need wisdom and guidance and counsel

because my son punched somebody in the

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face at school and came home yesterday.

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And now I'm trying to figure out

what do I do as a, as a parent?

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How do I walk through all this?

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You're going to need wisdom from

other people that are going to be able

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to come alongside you and help you.

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And that's why the church is so good and,

and being connected, community groups.

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Uh, did I mention community groups,

community groups are a great place for

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you to get that level of relationship.

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In fact, it's the best place in the

church to get that level of relationship.

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One of the values of a group like that.

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Is that you have a diverse

array of experiences?

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And even diverse takes of

understanding of the tech.

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So the wisdom that you can get in a

group like that, Is by its very nature

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because it's so different and so varied.

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Is usually really, really helpful.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, a hundred percent.

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It is.

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And, uh, and, and that's why.

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It's such an act of God's grace, that he

didn't save us to live our lives as, as

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individual Christians and just fight your

way through and good luck getting there.

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Um, there's such a good benefit to, to

have in the body of Christ with you.

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Well, let's jump into our Bible reading

today, which is Genesis 16 and 17 and 18.

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I don't want to sit and just started

talking and that's what happens, I guess.

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Uh, but 16 through 18.

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Um, and this is a, this

is a, an interesting text.

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Uh, because here we find, uh, Sariah,

who is the eventual mother of, of Isaac.

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Who's the son of promise.

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And her slave Hagar and

Sarah had no children.

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She was barren.

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Uh, and this is a unique situation

because God had promised Abraham,

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Hey, you're going to have an error.

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You're going to have, in fact, not just

one, but you're going to have descendants

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as numerous as the stars and the heavens.

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Uh, we just read about that

in yesterday's reading.

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And now he's dealing

with a wife who's barren.

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She has no children.

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And so she's got this female slave and

Hagar, she gives Hagar to, to Abraham.

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And, and if you're familiar with

the story, you know, the rest of it.

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Um, Hagar and Abraham have a son together

in the son's name is Ishmael now.

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Uh, this is where Christianity and

Islam begin to diverge in the biblical

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account, uh, because the Muslims,

and if you talk to a Muslim, they

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will argue that the son of promise.

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Uh, the sun offered on Mount Moriah

was actually not Isaac, but Ishmael.

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And we would argue that the

biblical biblical account

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is, uh, is faithful and true.

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And that the center promise offered

on Mount Moriah is actually Isaac

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and not Ishmael, but Isaac and

Ishmael will become the fathers

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or the figureheads of two nations.

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And that's, what's so unique to me.

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Um, Pescara, I'd love to get some of

your thoughts on here as God's promise

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to Hagar that this son of a relationship

that that should have never happened.

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Uh, between Abraham and Hagar, that God

promises to make him a great nation.

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And, and on top of that, this is going

to become the nation of Islam, not,

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not the literal nation of Islam as

is the political force, but this is

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going to become the Muslim nations.

145

This is the descendants of Ishmael are

going to do more damage to the church than

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perhaps any other people group in history.

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And it's interesting that

God promises to make of him.

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One of the, the, the key thorns

in the side of Christianity.

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Any thoughts on that?

150

Yeah, this goes back to our study of job.

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We have to remember that even

though God ultimately ordains all

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ends and all means even he is not

the primary cause of those things.

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He is the proximate cause.

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And.

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Uh, therefore what we can see in this

is that God has plans and purposes

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that are bigger than our immediate

understanding of any given circumstance.

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Uh, what we're seeing here is a

microcosm of how God operates.

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In the entire universe, this is just one

way that he, he furthered his intended

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ends and other in order to glorify himself

and to do ultimate good for Israel.

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This is part of that.

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So I know there's so much we could say

about that, but what we should at least

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acknowledge is that God is in control even

of the rising of nations that are evil.

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Uh, nations that will

ultimately do harm to those.

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He loves, but he's got it all

under control and he's doing

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it for his sovereign purposes.

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Yeah, others have also commented.

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And I think this is a secondary point.

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I think.

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You just said, pastor at his grade.

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Others have commented just on the fact

that after God has promised Abraham

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such great things and everything else

that here we see evidence of God's care

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and concern for people outside of the

covenant that he still is, is concerned

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for the wellbeing of humanity at large.

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Um, In an Ishmael in and of

himself was not, uh, w w D didn't

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perpetuate evil by being born.

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Um, though the, the relationship

that he was born from was

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not a godly or good, or, or.

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Uh, ordain relationship as far as

something that God desired or commanded.

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Uh, Ishmael in and of himself was,

was not, uh, a center for simply

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being born, uh, as a result of

that, that relationship there.

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Yeah.

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God shows great tenderness

toward Hagar and Ishmael.

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Yeah.

184

It's an incredible, in fact, Uh,

remember Hagar probably came from

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Egypt when Abraham stopped there and

pretended to have Sariah be his sister.

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And this whole exchange happens

between him and Pharaoh.

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And so these guys are victims

and are in a real sense of

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Abraham's bad decision making.

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In fact, on top of that, Abraham

listened to the voice of Sariah, which

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is an application of his leadership.

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This is a very similar language to what

you see Adam doing in the garden when he's

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listening to the voice of Eve, his wife.

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And so the scripture.

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Uh, Moses is likely intending

versus see the connection here.

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He's not doing what he should be doing,

even though he's the father of faith.

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This is not a particularly good

picture of him leading by faith.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Just a couple of exegetical notes here.

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Notice in 16 seven, we

see the angel of the Lord.

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I think this is the first time.

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If I'm not mistaken that the

angel of the Lord shows up.

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Uh, the angel Lord, we believe

is a pre-incarnate appearance of

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Jesus, that this is the son of God.

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And that's why he speaks in first person.

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Uh, when he says I will multiply your

offspring so that they cannot be numbered.

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Verse 10.

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Uh, the angel is not

speaking on behalf of God.

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The angel is speaking as God, and

that is not something that an angel is

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going to normally do, unless it's the

angel of the Lord who is, we believe

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again, a pre-incarnate appearance of.

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Uh, Jesus of the second

member of the Trinity there.

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Chapter 17 then.

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Uh, we get into some of the, the

reiteration, the re repetition of the

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Abrahamic promises to Abraham at covenant.

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Uh, he reiterated here, the covenant

promises to Abraham and changes

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his name from Abraham to Abraham.

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So now I can say Abraham and,

and not be in error and keep

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correcting myself, uh, which is.

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I'm grateful for.

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Abraham.

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So now he's Abraham.

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Why?

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Because Abraham means

father of a multitude.

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And so that's why his name has

changed because that's part of the

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Abrahamic covenant blessing is that

he would have many descendants.

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So Abraham, their significance there.

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And then he institutes a circumcision

to be the sign of the covenant,

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by which all the males in the line

of promise would be identified.

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Uh, oh, Let's let's stir up a little

bit of controversy here at PR.

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Um, do you know where I'm going with this?

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I do not.

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But a hair right here we go.

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Okay.

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So, um, our, uh, reformed brethren.

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So Presbyterians.

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Those those in covenant theology.

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Do you know where I'm going with this now?

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They would argue for infant baptism

or Pado baptism Pado from, uh, where

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we get, uh, the idea of, of, uh, of

children, child baptism, infant baptism.

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They would argue that that

is the new covenant sign.

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The way that circumcision was the

sign of the old covenant, that the

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sign of the Abrahamic covenant.

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Uh, and they would say, this is the

sign of, of belonging to the community.

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The belonging to the covenant

people of God is, is baptism.

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So as such, that's why they baptize

infants the way that they would

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circumcise a male born eight days.

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Uh, eight days after they were

born, they'd be circumcised.

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So, uh, in, in, in appealing to

this, because you may think, well,

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is there any biblical basis to this?

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They would go to Colossians

two eight through 15.

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And Colossians two eight through 15.

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Um, it talks about being, uh, a verse 11.

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It begin there.

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It says in him, you were circumcised

with a circumcision made without hands,

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by putting off the body of flesh by

the circumcision of Christ, having

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been buried with him in baptism.

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In which you were also raised with him

through faith, in the powerful working

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of God who raised him from the dead.

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And so, and that goes on, you

were dead in your trespasses,

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the uncircumcision of your flesh.

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They're connecting baptism to circumcision

there in Colossians chapter two.

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And they're saying that's

where we get this idea.

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That baptism is the sign

of the new covenant.

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How would we as dispensational

is to, would disagree with that?

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Conclusion argue.

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That's a, perhaps a

misunderstanding of what's going on.

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Well, I have a couple of thoughts

and I would love to have you

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contribute to this as well.

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PBJ.

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I asked you.

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Okay, great.

273

Well, I think one of the first things

we can identify is that the pattern

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in the new Testament is not consistent

with the pattern of the old, in other

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words, what we see in the new Testament.

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Is that the people that are baptized

are the ones that are professing

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faith in Christ and in Christ is a big

deal or in the Neale Testament, Jew.

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And Genesis you have Abraham being

given clear and explicit instructions

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for who is to be circumcised.

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He talks about those in his own

household, whether they're slave or

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free, whether they're his own children

or the children of someone else,

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if they're part of his household.

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They're all to be

circumcised and therefore.

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You have a very clear line of demarcation

for the old Testament and the new.

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So there are some similarities,

there are some, and that's where

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we would agree with our friends.

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Our Presbyterian friends say.

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Yeah, there's, there's certainly

some parallels, but they're not

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parallel in that they are both

equivalent signs of the covenant.

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At minimum, what you see is that

there's clear evidence for old

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Testament application for all

the people in Abraham's family.

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Versus there's clear evidence in the new

Testament for application of baptism, to

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all those who profess belief in Christ.

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And there's much more we could

say, but that would say that's

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a really good starting place.

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What else would you add to that?

297

Yeah, I would go to the covenant idea

here that this is a sign of the Abrahamic,

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covenant, not the mosaic covenant.

299

If this was a sign of the mosaic

covenant, then I think their

300

argument might be a little bit

stronger because the new covenant

301

has supplanted the mosaic covenant.

302

Um, but the new covenant has not

supplanted the Abrahamic covenant in

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that we believe the Abrahamic covenant

runs parallel to the blessings of

304

the new covenant, that there are

blessings that are still on yet.

305

Th that have not yet been realized.

306

As far as the Abrahamic covenant,

they've not been yet fulfilled.

307

And so to say, well, baptism is now

the, the sign is to say, to suggest

308

that that the Abrahamic covenant has

been abrogated that has been fulfilled,

309

or it's been set aside in the new

covenant is the only Kevin in operation.

310

Now we would say that that's not,

that's not a biblical approach

311

to how God is working right now

in the present dispensation.

312

So, um, baptism is, is never formally

correlated anywhere with circumcision

313

as the sign and the new Kevin at the way

that the reformed churches will argue.

314

A lot of their argument outside

of Colossians two is going

315

to come from church fathers.

316

And in, in, in their defense, there were.

317

Early church fathers that did right on.

318

Uh, Pedro baptism, baptism of infants,

but that is not in and of itself grounds

319

for us to say we should embrace the same.

320

The same practice.

321

Right.

322

And one other element of this too, is

that in the new Testament, the times

323

where you do have household baptisms, It

is an argument from silence to say that

324

those who were baptized were also infants.

325

Right.

326

And we would take issue with that because

we would say that's clearly not the

327

implication here to those who believe that

are baptized within the household and not.

328

Every person in the household.

329

, the other thing that you have difficulty

with is that some point then if we're

330

going to, if we're going to baptize

a baby and say that this makes them

331

part of the covenant community of

the church, At some point in time,

332

they're going to leave the covenant

community of the church then because

333

our Presbyterian brothers are reformed.

334

Brothers would say it's salvation by grace

alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

335

None of them are going to say, at least

none of them that are biblical are going

336

to say that salvation saves anyone.

337

So, so baptizing that baby does not

save that baby, nor does it guarantee

338

that they're going to be saved.

339

And so they are placed into the

covenant community, under their parents,

340

you know, purview or supervision

as they are baptized as a baby.

341

But at some point in time, then

we have to say that they've left

342

the covenant community and they

need to be brought back in through

343

faith in Christ, by grace alone.

344

And so I think there's a difficulty

there because it becomes okay.

345

So what.

346

At what point does that child leave

the covenant community and need to

347

be brought back in through salvation?

348

And so I, I think we're, we're really

on squishy ground there when we're

349

saying that that baptism somehow

brings a baby into the covenant

350

community at the church, because.

351

Then at some point they're going

to leave and they need to be

352

brought back in through salvation.

353

And, and I think that's, uh, a tricky

situation rather than to say, Hey man,

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Our kids need to be saved from, from

the word go, Hey, we need our kids

355

to come into, into the, the faith and

knowledge of Jesus Christ as the Lord

356

and savior from the very beginning.

357

Right.

358

And we would also say that the sanctifying

effect of having a Christian mom and

359

dad is a really good and powerful thing.

360

Yes.

361

But that it's not equivalent with

being part of the community of faith.

362

We talked to our kids about

becoming Christians all the time.

363

We don't try to convince them

that they are Christians.

364

We say, look, you need to turn from

your own sin and trust in Christ for

365

yourself, your mom, and I believe,

but we want you to believe too.

366

We want you to put your trust in Jesus.

367

And I think that's a really good impulse.

368

And not to say that

they wouldn't say that.

369

But we're starting from a very different

perspective of their relationship

370

to the gospel from that age.

371

Uh, from, from the earliest of their ages.

372

Now we don't pretend to know exactly

where the slicing and dicing is,

373

where God's going to say, okay.

374

You're perfectly accountable here

or there, but we would say the

375

impulse for someone like us who

holds our position, credo, Baptists.

376

Is that we're going to appeal to our kids,

believe for yourself, trust in Christ and.

377

Be saved.

378

Yep.

379

Yep.

380

Well, the rest of chapter 17 then.

381

Verses 15 through 27, God

promises Abraham that he is going

382

to have a son through Sarah.

383

And that son is going to be named Isaac.

384

And so Abraham protests

saying, Hey, can it be enough?

385

God, can't just issue

my I'll live before you.

386

And that's what he's doing there.

387

You're saying.

388

Once you just let Ishmael be the one.

389

And God says no.

390

And so God makes a clear distinction

between Ishmael and the son of promise.

391

Isaac in this again is where

Islam and Christianity begin to

392

diverge is, is right here in the,

in who is the son of the promise.

393

And the son of the promise biblically,

and we need to understand this is Isaac.

394

Isaac is the one that will carry on the

Abrahamic line in Abrahamic, covenant.

395

Uh, and the blessings they're in.

396

Chapter 18.

397

Then we get the first, uh, theophany in

scripture where these men come to Abraham

398

and God appears to Abraham as a man.

399

And, and, uh, in this first part

of chapter 18, first, 20 verses or

400

so confirms the promise that Sarah

is going to give birth to Isaac

401

and even gives a time for him.

402

He says, next year, at this time,

You're going to have to the son,

403

the son of the promise in air.

404

Sarah laughs.

405

And the angel says, why did she laugh?

406

And she's like, I wasn't laughing.

407

And he's like, yeah, he

didn't know you were laughing.

408

Uh, and so Isaac is the son of laughter.

409

And he's going to be born a year later.

410

And then after this, uh, we get some

bad news and that is that God tells

411

Abraham that he's going to destroy

Sodom and Abraham begins to bargain

412

with God and, and gets God down from.

413

If you can find 50 righteous all

the way down to, if you find 10

414

righteous in Sodom, God, will you.

415

Spare the town and God agrees even to

find, if I find 10 I'll spare them.

416

And we'll find out tomorrow

if that's going to be wow.

417

Uh, be effective or not.

418

A couple of points.

419

I want to bring up to you

as you're reading through.

420

Just keep in mind at the time markers.

421

The beginning of chapter 17, you find

out that Abraham is 99 years old.

422

And in the verse, right before that

chapter 16, he was 86 year old.

423

Eight years old when Hagar

bore Ishmael to Abraham.

424

So again, one of the tendencies, when we

read the text is to put it all in one.

425

Event it all homogenizes

into one story and that's the

426

way it's intended to be read.

427

However, I'd want you to

feel some of the patients.

428

Uh, some of the patients that Abraham

has to display as he waits for God to

429

secure the blessings that he promised him.

430

So notice there's 13 years

between chapter 16 and 17.

431

And then I think chapter 18 also

probably is about the same timeframe.

432

So this is 13 years in the making

here where God is giving Abraham

433

more and further revelation.

434

In fact, chapter 17 is the first

time God institutes circumcision.

435

This is 13 years into the promise.

436

13 years into God's covenant

with him saying, look, I'm

437

going to do this for you.

438

Uh, and, and this is the

sign of that covenant.

439

So God is not doing

everything in one fell swoop.

440

Just keep that in mind, as you read

and pace yourself through this.

441

And also notice too, that there's only,

there's always such interesting data

442

here that we just kind of read past.

443

But one thing I noticed

that was really cool.

444

In addition to the fact that you

have an embodied image of God,

445

I would suggest this is Jesus.

446

The pre-incarnate Jesus, even though

he's not called the angel of the Lord

447

here, I think this only Jesus I think,

is ever manifested in the flesh.

448

I would put Jesus in the, in

the, in the fiery pit with,

449

uh, Daniel and his friends.

450

Yeah.

451

So I think this is Jesus, but

nevertheless, one thing I did notice here

452

in verse eight is that the angels ate.

453

Yeah, they ate food.

454

Yup.

455

I think that's fascinating because that

tells me something about the angelic.

456

Dwelling in a body.

457

They, they, they have human

functions or at least they can.

458

I don't know, pretend or

emulate human function.

459

I'm not sure, but I

found that fascinating.

460

And I think it's a, it's, it's fun to

think about which hearkens back to the

461

Nephilim and helps us understand the.

462

Angelic beings co-habiting with women

and producing the race of the Nephilim.

463

Yeah, I don't want to get too graphic,

but yes, I was thinking about some

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of those things and I was wondering.

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At the same time to when

Jesus cast out demons.

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Uh, I think about the account in mark,

where he says, he's casting out these

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demons, like, Hey, send us to the pigs.

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The pigs.

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Yeah.

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There's something about the angelic

host, the angelic realm that I

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think they prefer embodiment.

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It seems like they'd rather be

in something than not right.

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Which is why when they leave those

men and they go into the pigs and they

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drown them, of course they kill them.

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So that's not the good thing,

but they want to be embodied.

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And I'm not sure why that is, but

it seems like that's generally a

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good thing in the angelic realm.

478

Yeah.

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Yeah, well, let's, uh, let's pray.

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That's man.

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We covered a lot of ground in this,

uh, in this episode, but let's pray

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and then we'll keep going tomorrow.

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Got thanks for your word.

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And we are grateful, even

though we disagree with them

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on the issue of, of baptism.

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We are grateful for our brothers

and sisters that are of the reform

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church and in covenant theology

and, uh, and grateful that.

488

That we are all believing in the same

Jesus in the same gospel and working

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together in that, in that regard.

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And so we're thankful for that,

but we're also thankful for

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your word and the clarity there.

492

And so we pray that as we read it, we

would understand it, that we would be

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attentive to the details as pastor rod

was just talking about and that we would

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grow every time that we read these stories

that we're back in familiar territory.

495

Again, beginning of Genesis,

a lot of us start strong here.

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Got it.

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I just.

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That you keep our people faithful.

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And keep them growing as they

spend time in the word that's,

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that's why we're doing this.

501

We're not doing this just to, to check

a box or make ourselves smarter, help

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us to grow in our understanding and

knowledge of who you are and produce a

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humility within us, a reverence and awe

of who you are because of that as well.

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So we ask this, we pray

this in Jesus name.

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Amen.

506

Keep her in your Bibles.

507

We all in tuned again tomorrow for another

edition of the daily Bible podcast.

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See you.

509

Bye.

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Speaker: Hey, thanks for

joining us for another episode

511

of the daily Bible podcast.

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We hope and pray this has been a blessing

to you and your time in the word.

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If it has, if you would subscribe to this

podcast, leave a like, leave a comment

514

and share it with some friends and family.

515

That would be awesome.

516

If you need more information about

Compass Bible Church here in North

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Texas, you can go to compassntx.

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org.

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Again, that's compassntx.

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org.

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And we'll be back with you

tomorrow for another episode

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of the daily Bible podcast.