You are going to LOVE this episode. This is a very honest, raw and hopeful conversation with Michelle Puster, a long-term client of mine who is a therapist and Mom of 3 (including twins).

Michelle opens up about how challenging life was with 3 children under 2 and the rage, shame, depression and anxiety she experienced.

This difficult time led her to eventually find Hand in Hand Parenting, start working with me and discover meditation. 

She shares how she went from crying in the bathroom to being able to be calm and present with her children when they're having a hard time with difficult behaviour.

This episode will give you hope and a pathway to turn your dark times around.

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About Michelle

Michelle Puster M.Ed, is an online mindfulness teacher for parents

She helps parents trapped in anger and burnout free themselves from overwhelming guilt and shame.

Click here to download her FREE 5 minute Rage Break:  4 steps to pause and regroup when it's taking everything you have not to lose it with your kids.

Follow her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/compassionateheartmindfullife/

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About Helena Mooney

I am a Certified Parenting Coach for mums who want to do "gentle parenting" but become frustrated and worried when it doesn't seem to work. I'm here to help you feel more confident as a mum, deeply connected as a family, and to all have more fun!

**DOWNLOAD YOUR FREE BOOKLET:** Shout Less, Connect More with 5 Simple Games

Book: 1:1 Mentoring Session

Follow on Instagram

Follow on Facebook

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of parenting with play. I'm so

pleased you're here because I'm really excited to introduce you to

somebody all the way from America, Michelle

Pasta, who I've known for,

I don't know, 4 years, 5 years now, quite a while, feels

like. Oh. And she is fabulous.

And what we wanna talk today about is

anger, because have you ever felt angry at your child?

And Michelle is brilliant, and she is a

therapist and an mind an online mindfulness teacher

for parents. And she's here to talk about

anger because what she does is she helps, parents who are caught

up in anger and burnout to turn all that around

to become free from guilt and shame. She's just wonderful.

So I'm really thrilled to have her here. Welcome, Michelle.

Hi, Helen. It's a pleasure and a privilege to be here

with you. Oh, I'm so thrilled. I'm so thrilled.

So is that enough of his introduction? Do you have anything else you wish to

add? Yeah. Why should I

say you've got 3 children? Yeah. That's true. That's

important. I have twin 10 year olds, a boy and a girl,

and then I have an 8 year old daughter. So

I found you 5 years ago

when I had 5 year old twins and I had a 3 year

old daughter, and I was in the weeds, and I was found

your podcast. And I was so grateful, And I

reached out, and you actually had space to see me. And I was like, I

couldn't believe it. I was so excited, and and I'm

just so grateful that you're part of my life because parenting is

hard. Parenting is hard work. Yeah.

It's hard. It is. And and you've got the double whammy

of twins and then another child very

soon afterwards. So, I mean, you had you had 3 children,

2 and under or 3 children under 3? I had 3

children, 2 and under, for a year.

Yeah. That is intense. That is really intense.

So yeah. Yeah. That's It's been so wonderful to to get to know you and

to hear about, you with your children. And and I just think what we're

gonna talk about today is so perfect because parenting

is hard. And that rage that

we, you know, we you're a you're a mindfulness coach. You're

a therapist. You know, I've done personal development before I became a mom. You know,

we can think we're setting ourselves up really well to be this

calm, zen like, patient figure.

And then when actual reality hits, it's like,

oh my god. This is not this is not good.

Yeah. And, oh, apparently, I have a monster that lives

inside me that I didn't know about that comes out in

stressful, overwhelming situations? Okay. This

is not great. I don't love this.

Yeah. I didn't realize I was as angry as the person as I actually am.

I thought I was quite quite patient and laid back. So, yeah,

that monster within because I you we tell

our children, don't shout and, you know, we try and help them. And then I

have found myself standing there, and I have literally stamped my

foot in rage when I was trying to deal with my child.

And I'm going, oh my god. I'm having a toddler tantrum in

my thirties. Right. And we have fully developed

brains. Yes. So we don't even have an

excuse. Right. Yeah. Yes.

So that rage is real and parenting anger

is real, and it's and I

think probably a lot of parents deal with it, but there's

so much shame. So much shame because you can't

tell anybody that you're angry. I mean, maybe if

you have a few close friends, you know, you could be like, oh, I yelled

at my kid today. But 5 years ago

and before, I did not have close friends. I

didn't have anybody to turn to to talk to. And always in my

mind, there was someone else that was, like, the perfect parent

that would never yell at their kids. And so not

only was there the yelling and anger, but then also there

was so much shame, so much

shame. And shame makes you want to shrink and

hide and, you know, not tell anybody and feel like you're

a terrible, horrible person. And,

so that's part of why I wanna talk about this because

I don't want anybody else to feel alone and to feel

ashamed and to feel like they're the only ones

that go through this with their kids and also it's really

painful, you know, like it's painful to

have yelled at your kids when you want nothing more. I'm assuming

that everybody listening to your podcast is trying to be a connected

parent, you know, has learned about this and

understands it. You know, I certainly did as a therapist. It

was almost like I wished for ignorance is bliss. I was, like,

overly informed about it. And then

thinking about my adult clients that I work with that have

issues because of how they were raised. And I'm like, oh, I don't wanna do

that. And so, yeah,

like, everybody listening, right, is trying really hard to do

this connected parenting thing that cares deeply about their

relationships with their kids. And so the last thing you

want is to yell at them. That's the last thing anybody

wants. And in reality, it happens.

It happens because we're overstressed and under resourced

and, and a for many

reasons. You know? Because of the number of kids we have, because

of issues that our kids have, because maybe stuff that's happening

with our partner or our parents or our job or whatever.

There's so many stressors that we're facing, and

so I just, you know, think about how I was

in the bathroom crying alone, feeling

ashamed. And I'm like, I wanna tell whoever is

in the bathroom alone crying, you're not alone.

You're normal. You're probably overstressed and

under resourced, and you're not alone, and you're not a bad parent.

And so that's why I am, like, want

to help other parents. They're struggling with these

same feelings and same,

patterns, you know, that you get stuck in with your kids.

Yeah. Oh gosh. So relate. And,

and there's that saying, isn't it? When you know better, you do better.

But we can I mean, we all know not to shout at our children?

We all know not to even, you know, lash out, and

be mean and in whatever capacity that is. But, yeah, there's times when

we just can't help it. And, you know, I can be

there sort of standing there raging, and it's

coming out of my mouth, and I literally can't stop myself. You know? And

because I'm just, like, so overwhelmed with

current frustrations, current you know, what my

children are doing, the current stress that I might have in my life. I'll

often have a voice in the back of my head going, well, I wouldn't you

know, it's often my parents' voice going, I wouldn't stand for this behavior or, you

know, what are you doing with that? Whatever that voice is, we all have some

sort of version of it. And so, you know, cumulatively, it's

like, oh my god. I I I I can't I literally cannot stop

myself. Yeah. And, yeah, the

shame. And I I, I have a shoulder that can

dislocate, which is really horrible. And one time

we'd had a horrible, horrible holiday.

And, well, not it wasn't a horrible holiday. It was just getting to that point

of stressful holiday. We were camping. It was raining a lot. My kids were

squabbling. It was just all really stressful. And we

were driving on the way home, and my kids were just being really mean to

each other. And I then was sort of waving my arm

at an awkward angle. I was in the passenger seat trying to

just stop them from doing it. And it semi

dislocated my shoulder, and I'm in

a huge amount of pain. And luckily then it all

got back in and it was all okay eventually. But then I went to to

my physio, like, the next day or the 2 days later going, oh, yeah. And

I explained sort of what was happening that caused it. And this was

somebody who without children, so sort of looked quite alarmed.

Whereas if I say that to another parent, they're like, uh-huh. Yep. I totally

understand. Because, you know, and that's I know not to be mean

to my children. I talk about that with my you know? I

I've helped other parents not to be mean to their children, but there's times when

it's just this cumulation. And for me, I was tired.

It means about a week of camping and, you know, when you know when you're

holding stuff together for so long and then suddenly you just

lose your mind. And, yeah, the shame

afterwards was just, like, immense. And I had physical pain as a

result of it because it was

excruciating. So, yeah, this is a this is a really

big topic. And and like I said, when I was saying it to my lovely

physio, but he he didn't understand. Because

who who thinks intentionally, yeah, I'm gonna do that. Of

course, you're not going to do that. No. I mean, I feel like

I couldn't even talk to I'm a therapist, so you'd think, you know, I would

get therapy, but I didn't feel like most therapists

understood what I was feeling and why I

was feeling that way. Because if they didn't understand the connected

parenting piece, I think that they might just

go down lots of rabbit holes that were not

helpful. And if they didn't understand the stress that

parents can be under and what's you know, I think that

was what I heard in your podcast was, like, that you just had

this understanding, and that's what you conveyed when we started meeting is,

like, oh, yeah. You just get it.

And there's not this layer of judgment or fear of like, oh my

goodness. Well, you should probably, like, go to therapy or maybe she should

be on medication or maybe your kids should be you should all be in therapy

and be all medicated and, like, and, like, I don't

I'm really nervous about what's happening in your life. And that was you know?

Yeah. People just don't get it. They just don't get it. And so there is

really it feels like only some people,

like, people in this world, people like you that can really understand

the level of stress that parents

can experience. I remember, like, a similar

situation. I don't know if it's similar. Similar in that I was filled with

rage, but it was the

hardest time. So I hate when people say it doesn't get easier.

It gets different. Okay. Just for all you guys out

there that have, like, 2 and 3 and kids under

5, it does get better. It does get easier. That is

BS that it gets different. I'm not saying it's easy.

It's not a cakewalk, but it is easier

than having toddlers, like, and infants.

That's freaking hard, and it will get easier. So just, you

know, hold that. So, anyways, when when I

had to take my kids to preschool, it was a nightmare.

It's because I was by myself. I was,

you know, I was overstressed seeing

lots of clients a week that I didn't really understand. I didn't

get why I couldn't do that. I didn't think should I thought I should be

able to do it all. I should be able to be a therapist and see

as many clients as I wanted to, you know,

and there was no problem with that. And I should be

able to come home and be this, like, loving, understanding mom, and

I should just be able to do it all because, I don't know, this just

seemed like that's what other people were doing, and it seems like a reasonable

expectation. And it was, like, never occurred to me that maybe I was trying to

do too much or that maybe having 3 kids

was a lot or 3 kids under the age at that point of,

you know, 4 was a lot. So,

anyways, getting them into the car in the morning

was a nightmare. I hated it. Like, you

know, you had to get them dressed and, like, there's always, like,

a blowout, you know, a diaper blowout right before you leave.

So 3 kids that don't wanna get dressed that you have to, like,

try to not lose your mind. Just getting them dressed,

feeding them, that would be great. And then you have to get them

in the car. You have to put them into seats that they don't wanna

go in. You have to buckle them in, a 5 point harness that they don't

wanna be buckled into to go to a place they don't wanna go.

So they're not helping. They're not cooperate. They're, like,

you know, let at the very least, lollygagging.

At the very you know, at worst, they're throwing a fit. Like, they're

crying. I don't even remember what they would do. I only remember that

I was constantly enraged and

feeling terrible about it. So this one particular day, I got them

all into the car, and I guess it was you know, took

everything I had. And, you know, also, I'm, like,

most likely sleep deprived because, you know, they're

little and there's sleep issues and blah blah blah. So I'm probably

sleep deprived, overworked, under, you

know, under resourced, don't have any friends or social

support. And I'm finally get them all into the car,

get them all buckled, and I'm so filled with rage that I,

like, leave the car because I find I'm like, god. Thank god. They're

finally in the car. And I come inside, and I, like, kick the playhouse.

And and it was a play kitchen. And I just remember,

like, I felt like such a crazy person. You know? Like, just

so crazy because it was crazy. Like,

everything about the situation was crazy, and there was like, you

were the first person in my life to be like, Michelle, that sounds like a

lot. That sounds like you have 3 little kids. That's

really hard. And I was like, yes. It is really hard. It is.

It is really hard. And everybody else just seemed to be like

you know, my mom would be like, well, maybe you should work more. You

know? Because it seems like it's hard for you around your kids. Maybe

you should work more. Not understanding that my job as a

therapist is really stressful, and I'm taking on other people's

stuff. My husband didn't know what to say or do with

me. He thought, oh, I don't know. Maybe you should work more. He didn't know

what to do with any of it. You know? It's not like he has

well, he's not resourced either. Right? So my only two

people that I could talk to didn't really like,

their their suggestions were were to work more,

which is not what I needed. It's not what I needed.

And so it felt crazy and guilty and

ashamed. And here I am, like, you know, kicking the

stupid kitchen. And, oh, it was

just so fucking terrible. Sorry. Am I allowed to cuss? Maybe you'll have to go

Go for it. Absolutely. Cut this. Cut it out. It

was just so terrible. And,

and then I think when I got, like, when I got into

connected parenting and I start I I reached out to

hand in hand, and I, like, got a

person. I started talking, and I, like, got

better because I was taught, like, oh, you have 3 kids, and, you know,

the ratio is supposed to be, like, 4 adults to 1 kid or something

like that. And I'm like, what? In what world?

It's like, okay. If that's true, no wonder I'm crazy. Oh, and it's

also so I thought you know, I really believed if I just

worked out more or just meditated more or if I just,

I don't know, did more therapy, like, as a client, you know,

I would eventually but the truth is, like, if you're in

a enormously stressful situation,

there's no amount of running or meditating

or whatever that you can do that's gonna, like, totally take away

all the stress, and I thought I just needed to try harder.

I lit I thought that's why I just I just needed to try harder, But

the harder I tried, the more crazy I felt. So it was crazy making.

And so at some point, I, was

reading doctor oh, gosh. I'm gonna

have to Laura Markham? Yes. Thank you. Doctor

Laura Markham's book, and she's saying something like,

you know, if you just, like, take the there's this nice pill you can

take, and it only takes and you and it, like, relieves stress and

anxiety and helps with anger and blah blah blah blah blah. And it just takes

30 minutes to take, and it's meditation. And I

was so like, I was still getting

triggered so regularly,

which the best I could do was I would you know, my kids

would do something. And now I had I was starting to have support. Right?

So I don't know. At that point, I think you were maybe in my life.

So I had had some hand in hand, like, parenting coaching.

Like, I had some education that maybe I wasn't crazy.

Maybe I was just doing too much, and I had extraordinarily

stressful circumstances. Okay. Okay. That was helpful.

But I still was, like, getting triggered, you know, with my kids did

stuff, like throw their cereal bowl or

you know, I was in I was supposed to, like, be playful

or, like, I don't know. What are you supposed to do? You're

supposed to, like, you know yeah. Be playful.

Be, have this nice compassionate, warm response, and

it just took everything I had not to scream at them. And that was, like,

a win, you know, if I didn't just scream in in

response. So being playful was, like,

a a step down the road that I wasn't I couldn't quite access.

So, anyways, I started meditating. I had done it a

little bit, so I I hadn't I wasn't totally a novice.

But, anyway, I started 30 minutes a day for a month, and

it, like, was mind blowing. It

it expanded my window of tolerance from

so, like, you know, you think about your fuse, and my fuse

was super short. You know? Anything was just like, ah.

You know? Even if I didn't scream and yell at them, I felt it on

the inside. I couldn't be responsive

in a compassionate way. I had to remove myself

to calm my nervous system down.

So it was still pretty difficult to say at least.

So meditating was like it was shocking to

me that in a after a month, it was like, I didn't do

it 7 days a week. It was, like, 5 days a week for 30 days.

And it expanded my window of tolerance

noticeably, you know, from being regularly,

you know, just triggered and ex

feeling explosive even if it didn't come out to

now I had, like, 10 breaths. You know? Like, I it

I don't know how to explain it more than that, but it was

crazy. And I so I've been doing it ever since

because it that noticeable of a difference

and, like, a huge need that I had.

Wow. I mean, first of all, how did you find the time? Like, you know,

if you've got this sort of crazy life,

whirlwind, how on earth did you manage to find 30 minutes or

even just allow yourself to sit for 30 minutes? Well, I did

it at night before bed because I couldn't fall asleep

easily anyway. So there's lots of, like, recommendations,

but I basically was like, I'm gonna do whatever I need to do to do

it. So you're not real like, some people don't suggest doing in bed because you

might fall asleep. I didn't fall asleep easily. So I sat up

in bed. I wasn't gonna fall asleep anyways, you know, because

I'm like, my mind's racing. And so if I had

to wake up early, I would lose sleep, so I decided I would do it

before bed. So, anyways, I would I use the app 10 Percent

Happier. And, I I think

I mostly did unguided. I don't know why, but I just did. But there's

lots of guided ones, so I'm sure I used those as well. But Did

you listen to music, or was it just silence?

Mhmm. Wow. But I had an I had enough

I'm not sure when I started doing the 10% happier courses

because it really helps to know what the heck

you're doing. Because a lot of people have this misunderstanding that when you meditate,

you're just gonna zone out and you if you're not zoning

out, then you're not doing it correctly, but that's not true.

Your mind will definitely wander. I I can't even

go 10 breaths. It's been 3 years of meditating. I

cannot meditate and count from 1 to 10 without my mind

wandering. I have ADHD. I'm very,

hyperactive, like, energetic person. So

sitting still at the end of the day was easier because I'm tired. You know?

But but my mind wandered, and it didn't matter.

The only different the only thing is you just, you know, say, oh, mind wandering,

and you bring it back to the breath. So I it still worked.

That's the good news. You don't have to, like, zone out and not think about

anything. That's not a realistic expectation. That doesn't happen for anybody.

Maybe Buddhist nuns. I don't know. But

not average people. And, also, you can

it still works. You still get the benefits. That's the amazing

thing is you still get the benefits. But,

yeah, I had to learn how to

deal with my triggers, and I think that's the thing that I

really wanted to help parents with because I

had to figure it out on my own. I was like, okay.

I can stop myself from yelling, but I'm still flooded with

emotions, and I'm still, like,

overwhelmed and triggered. And, also, if I did yell, I would

be filled with shame. So I had to, like, figure out

tools for all of this in order to, like, calm

my nervous system down enough to eventually

be able to return to the kids and, like, just go on

with the day.

Yeah. So do you find so it reduces your chance of

going off and and losing your mind. When you find that

you are, do you not get to that stage

anymore, or do you find when you are at that stage, it's easier to

to pull back? I definitely still get to that

stage. It happens a lot less often, which is

Yeah. Great. Mostly, I would say,

you know, it kinda feels like on a scale of 1 to 10, if 10

is losing it, it feels like, you know, there's, like,

a number that you it's like once you reach that number, like, it's a

foregone conclusion. You know? Yeah. So before, it was, like, a 5.

You know? Once I got to a 5, I was like, I'm definitely gonna yell.

But now it feels like I can go all the way to an 8,

and, you know, I there's, like, more space for me to, like,

talk myself off the ledge and use lots of tools and, you

know, call a friend and, you know, do

all these things, all these strategies. Whereas

before, it was, like, pretty much if anything stressful

happened, like, I was gonna lose it. But, yes, to answer your question,

I definitely still can lose it. And the other

good thing is, it I think

helping working a lot with my shame, that's how where

I use the self compassion. And none of this can be done in a

vacuum. Right? Like, the fact that I have a parenting support group that

I do with you and the fact that I have

friends now and I have a a listening partner that

I've talked to once a week for probably

7 years, It's crazy. We've

talked once a week for 7 years. I don't I'm not that

it's amazing. But, anyways, it's not

just meditating. Right? Like, I do lots of things

to stay sane. Lots of things to, like,

manage my emotions and manage my nervous system. But

the other thing that's really helpful is before, whether or not

I would I would yell, I would go into this shame spiral,

and I would feel so bad about myself and so, you know,

shameful that I would, like, emotionally detach even

if, like, for an hour or several hours. Like, it would just plummet my mood

for the rest of the day. So now

the the biggest, well, not

yelling, not losing it to begin with is great. But, also, if

I do lose it, I can bounce back

a lot more quickly. Like, it doesn't plummet my mood for the rest of the

day. It's usually, like, a half an hour

or maybe an hour. I mean, so I still have bad days. Don't get me

wrong. Yeah. But it's, like, before as particular instances, it would be

like, You know? Now it's a little easier to

bounce back and to recover and, to

come find, like, that grounded place again, whereas before, it was super

hard to do that. So with the shame,

what were you telling yourself before, and what do you tell yourself now? Or do

you just allow yourself sort of grace that

I am gonna lose it? Because I think a lot of the time is when

we think, well, I shouldn't be doing this. I know not to do this. I

should be meditating. I should be blah blah blah blah blah. And yet I've still

lost it. Because I used to think, god, I am such a failure.

Either I was a failure trying to do it because I wasn't doing it mainstream

way. And then I was a failure because my kids weren't behaving like I thought

they would've done on, you know, by being I didn't think I was a good

enough aware parent or hand in hand parent. You know? So I just was like,

when we have such heavy expectations on ourselves,

it's easy to just like, oh, god. I'm just hopeless.

And for me, going, everybody loses their mind

at their children. Everybody, at some point, to some degree, I'm not a

bad person. I'm really good at all these other things. Look at all these other

things I'm really good at as a mom. And that has helped me offset and

just go, it's okay, you know, if I can forgive myself. So I'm

just interested to know how did you you know, what is it you tell yourself?

What's your internal dialogue like? Yes. That's a

great question. So, yes, very much so when I was

in, I would say, full on burnout

and depression, like, severe depression,

there's the language that I would the way that I would talk to myself

is what's wrong with me, why am I doing this, I'm a

failure as a parent, I'm a failure. Like, I mean, even though I

didn't feel like I was I'm, like, I'm I was ashamed because I'm a therapist

in doing this. Like, there was so much. Yeah. There was a

lot of, like, what's wrong with me? I'm gonna hurt my kids. I'm

damaging them. I'm ruining them.

Basically, the difference between shame and and guilt is

shame is I'm bad, and guilt is I did

bad. So, Jet, I was

used, 2 self compassion tools.

One of them is Kristin Neff's self

compassion break. And so, basically, the first part is mindfulness.

Like, I'm overwhelmed and, like, being able to mindfully say,

like, that's what's happening right now. I'm overwhelmed. I'm angry. Like,

naming it. That's mindfulness. The second part is just what you

described, common humanity. I'm not the only mother

who experiences this. I'm not the only mom who

yells at her kids. I'm not alone. I'm not a

terrible parent. And I would even say to myself,

like, there is probably another mom struggling

with getting their kids to school right now. Right?

Because it's, like, time to go to school, so there's probably

in the my kids' school or in the school district or in the

state. You know? I mean, if you expand it out, it's probably thousands of parents

that are struggling right now. So reminding

myself, I'm not alone. It's normal to struggle with kids.

It's normal to be triggered by, you know, stuff. Because, also, I

would be like, what's wrong with me that I'm so triggered? Why

why is my view so short? Like, I guess

I'm broken. I don't know. But so that part was really helpful.

And at first, I didn't really, like, believe it. It was just something I was

telling myself. It helped to talk to you. It helped to

talk to my listening partner, but I still had to kind

of fake it till I made it. You know? Like, I would try

to reassure myself even though there was a part of me that believed

it and part of me that was still struggling with shame.

Right? And then the third part is self compassion. So it's like

the things that that you would say to me when we would have a

call, like, you would say, oh, oh, lovely. That's so

hard. I hear you. And so what I would

do is remind myself of

you and my listening partner and anybody else that I

trusted that I knew would not judge me or think I was terrible

or bad. And I would just, like, picture you in my mind, and

I would just say that to myself. Like, it's normal for this to be hard.

It's okay. And it took a long

time, but over time, my language

did start to change. I would say it took

couple years, maybe several years. I mean, it didn't

change overnight. I'm not trying to, like, make weird promises.

It I was severely in shame, so it took a long

time for my language to real now I'm like, oh gosh. I must

be really stressed. So it used to be, I'm terrible

and bad. What's wrong with me? To now it's like,

oh, I guess I'm really stressed out. What's happening in my life

that I'm so stressed out? Oh, yeah. This is happening with my husband, or this

is happening with school, or this is happening with work, or I'm really

tired. Okay. That's why I'm having a hard time today.

So it took a lot of practice, like,

over and over again in the bathroom repeating this to

myself, calling my listening partner, calling

you. Over time, that language

changed from really severe shame shaming,

like, statements to now more of, like,

guilt and, like, this sucks. It feels still crappy,

but it's not, like you know? I don't know. It's not

that severe depression, you know, shame place.

And the other one I really like is a rain is called RAIN

practice by Tara Tara Brock, and RAIN stands

for recognize, accept, investigate,

and nurture need. So recognizes, again,

I'm overwhelmed. I'm losing my mind. I'm angry.

I'm frustrated. Whatever. So naming it,

accept allow. That's the a. That is like, can

I allow myself to feel this way? It's kinda like what you were saying

with, it's normal. Like you know? And,

oftentimes, we feel like I shouldn't be angry. What's you

know, blaming ourselves, so we kinda, like, kick ourselves when we're

down. So instead, it's like, another

meditation teacher calls it, like, welcome to the party. So I say to myself,

welcome to the party anger, welcome to the party frustration,

welcome to the party whatever shitty mood and feeling that

I'm having. I say, welcome to the party. Welcome to the party.

And that is kinda kinda, like, shifts the even the

way I'm thinking about it. Right? Like, I'm not bad and wrong for feeling this

way. It's like, this is a feeling. I don't like this feeling. I don't wanna

have this feeling, but this is what's this is what is. And

then the eye is investigate. So it could be like, where am I

feeling this in my body? Like, I wanna explode.

That's usually what it feels like that I wanna explode. And then

or what am I believing? Like, what is this

fear believing? So this morning, I was having a hard time getting my kids

to school. I don't know why my son was having a hard time, and I

asked myself. I removed myself from the situation

because I wanted to yell, and I I did not feel

playful even a teeny tiny bit. So I

I removed myself from the situation. I laid on

the bed, and I started doing this rein practice. And I get to the eye,

and I'm like, what am I believing? I'm believing that I'm never gonna get

the kids to school, that I'm

a terrible parent because I can't easily get my kids to school,

that I'm a bad and mean mom because he isn't feeling well,

and he's tired, and I'm not very empathetic or

understanding about that. I just want you to get to school. And

so I was like, okay. Well, they're gonna get to school.

It's gonna be 15 minutes, and they're gonna be at school, and it's gonna all

be okay. It's gonna be okay. And as soon as I said that to myself,

I started crying, which is a little you know,

helps move through the emotion. Right? And the n

is nurture need. Like, what do I need right now? You would ask me

that over and over and over again. I was like, when I was in

severe burnout, I had no idea what I needed. I literally

would have a half an hour, and I would just remember sitting in a parking

lot, like, staring off into space. I don't know

what I need. Should I go home? Should I should I

go into this store? I have no idea what I need.

Like, I was so under resourced and so, like, frazzled.

That was a very difficult question to answer, so

it was helpful to, like, constantly be asking

myself, what do I need? And, oftentimes, like, I need to know

that I'm normal. I need to know that I'm not a terrible parent. I

need to know that, like, my son's gonna be fine.

Even if I wasn't the most empathetic, loving, compassionate parent

this morning, he's gonna be okay. I'll check-in on

him this afternoon. He'll be fine. Will

be fine. It's a moment in time. If it's a really hard

day, the need might be, I need to call my listening

partner and vent. I need to,

like, you know, have coffee. I need to go for a run.

Whatever. The n could be it could be a 1000000 different things. Right? But the

n is like, what do I need? So these are the things when

I am catching myself

about to yell or if I'm in the middle of

yelling and I catch myself, then I remove

myself from the situation because usually I can't handle

you you know, we can't always remove ourself. Like, that's the reality.

But if I can, I remove myself from the situation, and I go

through these practices to help me

shift my brain state from, you

know, flooded with emotion

to what's happening, you know, calming my

nervous system down? And the reality is just like our kids get

flooded and, like, I think it's Daniel Siegel, right, that has that brain model where

they flip their lid. We flip our lid too, and it takes

20 minutes without any additional stimuli of a kid yelling at

you, throwing things at you. What else might a kid do?

Talking back, ignoring you. Like, whatever.

It takes 20 minutes to get back down

to baseline. Right? So I've so I need help.

Like, I have to remove myself. I have to give myself a break. I have

to and then I have to, like, go easy on myself when I come

back into the situation and not

force myself to

to follow through with a limit.

You know? If I can't handle it, I I

learned it's better to just

address it the next time. Because today, for whatever

reason, I can't handle it. It was so hard to give

myself permission to do that, to give myself permission to turn

on the TV when I knew if I interacted with my

kids, I would yell and scream? I didn't. I hate you know,

I felt like, oh, I'm a failure. What's wrong with me? I have to turn

on the TV to, you know, deal but the reality is

I didn't have anybody else to there was, like, nobody else to

watch my kids, so I needed to calm down. Like, I had to

reset my nervous system. I had to let them watch

TV for a little while so I could calm down

and return to baseline, and then I could go back to the day.

So those were other things that were really hard to

accept initially. But over time, I just was like, I

just have to. Even though I hate it, and I don't like

it, I don't want it, but I just have to. And it helped.

It helped. It helped. It helped. Yeah.

Amazing. And because we can think, oh, TV is so terrible. I've gotta do anything

to keep my, you know, kids off screens. But in that heat at the

moment, it is far better that they sit and watch TV for an hour

than you completely lose your mind at your children, You know?

Exactly. So It's tough. And it's it's it's it's sucks

when those are the only alternatives. But Yeah. Some somebody

I can't remember who it was, but somebody read or in a wrote in a

book or something, basically, when their kids were, like, in their teenage years.

They were like, oh, yeah, mom. Remember when you used to, like,

randomly turn on the TV and we would have pizza for dinner? And for

her, that was when she had lost it, and

she, you know or was about to lose it and was like, this was all

I can do is just turn on the TV and let my kids eat pizza.

So she probably felt, And for them, it was like a special treat. So that

was like, okay. I could it's alright. It's alright. It's

alright. It's alright. Yes. Yes. It's more than

alright. And I also think

because we, we're trying to parent a different way. So we're

trying not to use the harsh punishments and

the disconnection and the tools that, you know, our parents did

with loving intention. So, a,

we've got more pressure on ourselves. And, b, our kids can

sometimes be more, you know, quote, unquote, out of control

than, say, we were when we were little. Like, I was such a good girl.

I mean, I obviously had my moments, but I was a good girl. And that's

I often see that most of my clients are going, I was really good. I

didn't I didn't throw things at my mom. I didn't

talk back or be rude. And because we are wanting to parent

in a different way, we have a higher tolerance for our

children behaving like that because we're trying to do it in a really

connected way. And so we can we're there. We're there. We're there. And then

suddenly, we just that's it. We flip our lid, and

we're done. And then we can put extra pressure on ourselves because

we really are. We're we're doing such awesome jobs. You know, every time we

listen to a child crying, every time we play a game and connect with a

child, we're doing so well. But there are times when we just get to a

point and we just can't do anymore. And I think because we're not using,

you know, rewards charts, which really have been

designed to stop everybody from losing their minds because we just wanna control our children

so we don't get to that point. So, you know, there's so much pressure on

ourselves to do it right, to not lose everything, to not lose our mind. You

know? So, yeah, it's it's a it's a perfect storm

sometimes. Yes. For sure. And I

think that was another thing that was helpful that I had to learn was

when, I think Patty Wipflur from Hand in Hand says, like,

if you can't listen, it's okay not to listen, or, actually, it's

better to not listen. Yeah. And that was,

like, a relief because I would feel guilty and bad. I can't listen. Like,

I'm so triggered and flooded with emotion. Like, all they can the best I can

do is not yell. Or like you said, if I'm listening and I think

I'm okay and I think but then all of a sudden, they say or do

something, and I'm just like, oh, I can't handle this anymore. The best thing

I can do is just remove myself, and

it's good enough. Like, there are times, which it

sometimes it still surprises me that my kids are losing it and

having big emotions, and I'm okay.

And I don't really know why. I'm like, okay. Today, I can

handle this. I'm not sure why, but let's just go with it. I can handle

this. I'm doing okay. I have to, like, regularly check-in with myself.

Yep. I'm still doing okay. I still can handle this. And sometimes it's,

like, 10 minutes in, and I'm like, nope. Can't handle this. That has

to be enough for today. Like, I'm out. You know? And

then the I just stop listening and remove

myself and just distance. You know? Like, I can make sure they're

okay, you know, physically or whatever, but I don't have to be

listening intently to their emotions. You know, I don't have to do that

every single time, and it's okay. And I've

seen my kids make such

huge I mean, part of it's brain development, I

know, but also they are not kids that

are, like, have all their emotions shoved in a box.

Do you know? Like, with me, they do

show their big emotions, which is great, but also, like you said,

really hard. And,

what was the rest of my train of thought? And, and I've seen

progress. Like, I've seen, like,

them move through the arc,

you know, like, where they they'll have the big emotion,

and then they'll come out the other side. And it doesn't happen

all the time every time. It happens occasionally,

and it's great when it does. Sometimes I can listen to a little,

and that's as much as I can take. Or I listen to a little, and

I I'm fine, but they just don't, like, complete the arc, and they're still

kinda like, you know? And whatever. I don't

I can't like, it's not always this perfect, you

know, a plus b equals c thing. Like, parenting

is messy, and it's I think that is something

else that I had to come to realize.

Like, it's not it doesn't matter how hard,

how perfectly I do hand in hand. That's what I thought

initially when I got to hand in hand. I guess you interchange that with Aware

Parenting. I thought if I just do it perfectly

enough, I'll have perfect kids that don't have big

behaviors. That's not actually that's not

how it works. That's no like, we're human, so we

have emotions even and it's awesome that we

can be there and with and, like, help our kids through them. But

parenting is messy, so they're not gonna, you know, be

these, like, I don't know, perfectly regulated kids. They're gonna

be kids that can show me their emotions, and they're gonna be kids

that can move through their emotions. And that can be hard, but

but I am so grateful for

this model of parenting. And I'm actually

I I I think it's benefited me at least as much as it benefited

them because I had to deal with so

much stuff that was coming up in all these interactions

of my own that I don't know of any kind of, you know,

therapy that would have that direct access to, like,

these triggers and, oh, that well, how did that go when you were a kid?

Not so good. It didn't go so well. Yep. That's probably part of why I'm

triggered and part of my makeup and, you know, all this stuff.

So, yeah, I'm very grateful even though it's hard. It's

hard work, and that's why I can't do it personally

without support. I can't I couldn't do this without,

you know, without regular parenting groups, without my listening

partner, without also resourcing myself,

because that was something else that you all said regularly. It seems like

you're under resourced. And I'm like, what does that

even mean? What you're talking about? Of course, I am.

And so that was novel to be, like, you know, the whole the

the saying about put your own oxygen mask

on first. It's such cliche, but it's

so true. So true. I

have to go for a run because, otherwise, I'll

lose it. I have to I I like to. I want

to go for a run. I want to meditate. I want to talk and

to my friends and have support systems and

all of these things I need and I like. And, they're

what helped me stay resourced enough to, like, keep

going and putting one foot in front of the other, and it doesn't mean it's

perfect. It's not perfect, but it is,

it is manageable. It's manageable, and it did it

used to feel completely unmanageable. It was

completely I love hearing this, Michelle. It's so it's so

inspiring to hear from, you know, crying in the bathroom

locked in bathroom to then where you are now with your

children. And it's not about being perfect. And I think that's you know,

at the heart of this approach is about connection. And

connection is messy. Connection is raw and

sometimes not pleasant, but other times it's deeper rather than

having this facade of I'm fine. Everything's fine. You

go and do that. I'm not getting involved with your emotions. I'm not showing my

emotions. You know, there is a disconnect then. Whereas, I

remember reading when I first, Robin Grill

and he, he's an Aussie, is he he's a psycho

he's a psychologist and he's very much in parenting space. He's written some great

books. And, you know, people are saying, well, is it okay to show your emotions

to your children? Is it okay to show your anger? And he was and it

gave me permission to go, it is okay as long as

you're not overwhelming your child. I mean, obviously, there are times when we lose our

mind and that's not ideal. But it is okay to go, I'm actually really frustrated

right now or I am really angry right now rather than going, no.

It's fine, dear. It's fine. Because sometimes I'll, like, do this with my teenager.

And just, can you just do this? And I've got this certain voice, which you

can tell them, you know, and she's, mom, stop with the voice.

And I'm going, oh, would you rather I just say how I'm feeling? Yes, I

would. I'm going, oh, okay. That's really interesting. Because I'm thinking I'm trying to hold

it in and be this really good mom. And she was like,

oh, it's horrible. So, you know, Robin was going, yeah. It is okay to

you know, I think he had a 2 year old at the time and she

was standing on a chair, so same head to head height. And

she's, like, yelling at him and then he does a little I mean, obviously,

restrained because you're not gonna grown man yell at a 2 year old. But just

expressing, oh, I'm a bit angry too. You know? Like, so then

they're both expressing, but in a connecting way.

I was going, oh, it's okay to be real. Not,

you know, over the top, but just to like, yeah, I am. I'm actually really

annoyed right now. And and, you know, your children

can see you doing those steps to move through it to then get to a

point where you then are together and you can move on and in a

connecting way. So yeah, it's not

all bad showing our anger. It's just in

a in a bit more of a healthy way, not in a completely losing our

shit way. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think of it as I

my real big emotions come out in the parenting support group, and they come out

with my listening partner. And my kids get, like, the,

you know, a real version of me, but not the

messy you know, like, that I take to

adults who can be there for me and who can listen, and that doesn't you

know, that's not scaring them, right, where that would scare my kids. But but, yeah,

I can be real with them, and they know if I'm having a hard day

or they know if I'm, you know, sad or and they know on

like you're saying, on their on the level that's appropriate for them

to see and hear about. And, I

loved it. My daughter, the other day, I did yell at

her, and that felt really crappy. And

I apologized, kind of, you know, but it was, like, in

passing because it was, like, on the way to school. And so the next day,

I apologized again, and I was, like, just her and I one on one where

I could, like, look at her in the face and say, I'm sorry I yelled

at you. That wasn't okay for me to yell at you. And she's like,

it's okay. Well, it's not okay, but I understand that you are

having a hard time and, you know, everybody has a hard time sometimes.

And I loved how she said, it's it's not okay.

You know? Like, it's okay, but it's not okay. I I don't want

her to feel like it's okay for people to yell at her, and that's okay

treatment. I mean, the way that she said it was beautiful because,

yeah, we do all have hard times, and I think that's something

that, like, I didn't get to see with my mom. Like, she was

seemed to be superwoman and could do it all. She

did say later, like, oh, oh, yeah. I almost had a nervous breakdown a few

times, but it seemed like Yeah. She

could do it all. And so I feel like

my kids know that life is hard and messy,

and I don't it's not easy and that and and so they won't have

those weird, you know, unrealistic, hopefully I mean,

maybe they still will. Maybe they won't have as as

unreal of expectations of themselves.

And maybe if they get angry, they'll be like, oh, people get angry.

It's okay. You know? And versus, like, getting more angry and

ashamed, and then, like, it's spiraling and getting worse. And I think

that that's also a big part of this as well because, you

know, they can see that you're angry and yet you still have a very

strong relationship. It's not like you're giving them the silent treatment or you're,

you know, you're holding it back in and not connecting. You know, we

do lose it to some degree. And that's why listening

partnerships are so good. You know, whenever I'm in one, I just

swear like an absolute trooper in my listening partner. I mean, I, god,

I let rip. And it's great because then I can go back to my chugging.

Oh, sweetie. What's the problem? You know, because

I've had that outlet. But I think it shows that

because I was terrified of anger. I was terrified of my anger. I didn't think

I was allowed to be angry. You know, if somebody was angry with me, I

was going, oh my god. That's it. They hate me. I I I don't know

what to do with this. Whereas, I think sort of, you know, you're

explaining to your children, you're apologising. I mean, I didn't have my parents apologising

to me for anything like that. So you're, you know, there's so much that there's

so much richness that goes on with this. It's is the repair because

everybody stuffs up and we are gonna repair. But also, I love hand

in hand and aware parenting because it's it feels like it strengthens the relationship too.

You can move through this and go, oh, I hear you. And it must have

been scary for you. I know you hated it when I said this, and I'm

so sorry. And I can be it's such a genuine way of

being with our children. So thank you, Michelle.

It's been so wonderful to hear hear everything.

And so, you know, what is it that because I'm sitting there going,

god, I wanna do this meditation. Tell me more. What are you what are you

offering? What are you doing? Because this is a Well this is a new and

exciting venture for you. Yeah. So, eventually,

I'll, there'll be a course that you can, access,

and it's called yelling to connecting. And in the

meantime, while you're waiting for that course to be available,

I created my own, audio because,

like, that's what I wanted when I was about to yell, or I wanted something

to listen to to, like, basically to help me talk me myself off

the ledge. So it's called a rage break,

and you can and it has 4 steps.

Pause. Let me see if I can remember what they are.

And then move your body because your body needs help to move

through. Like, if you're feeling intense rage, you gotta move your

body. Right? So, I walk you through 1,

pausing, and then moving your body, and

then checking in, and then

self compassion. So you can, find it

on my website, and I think you're gonna put a link in the show notes.

Yeah. But that'll be, like, an audio that you can be like, oh

my gosh. I just lost it, or I'm about to lose it, or

and then, you know, find the audio, listen to it. There's, like,

a printout so you can, like, put it in your bathroom or wherever you go

and have your safe space where you can talk yourself through

it. There's a video of me doing the same thing

so that, hopefully, you feel less alone and you have a tool

for when you're in those moments. And I'm also

writing a blog weekly, and it's short.

But it's I try to be honest about, you

know, using these tools and how it's not always easy. You

know? Kind of like how it was before, kind of what I shared today,

like, how it was before, and what I

try to do now with these kind of intense situation, like,

with my own rigidity, with my own burnout, with my own

difficult thoughts. Because the more I can, you know,

regulate myself, the more, like you said, I can show up

for my kids. So if you wanna feel like less alone in

your difficult feelings, then you might enjoy the blog,

which I also read it, because I'm

dyslexic as well. So I don't really like to read. So I I read it

so that you don't have to read it. You can read it if you want,

or you can listen to it. Sounds lovely. Well, thank

you. Yes. And link will be in the show notes. And,

thank you again for coming on. I've absolutely loved I was saying, let's just

chat for 20 minutes, and we've just I've just like, listen. Tell me more. Tell

me more. It's so wonderful. So thank you so much, Michelle. Really, really

wonderful to have you on. Well, thank you for having me, and thank

you for doing this podcast because I feel like it takes a lot of

courage to share this because not everybody

is on board. And I'm so grateful

that you are willing to teach and share

because, otherwise, I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to do it as a parent. You

know? Like, I need people like you out there sharing helpful

information and tools. So thank you for doing this podcast

and sharing it with so many parents who I'm sure also

are equally appreciative and grateful.

Thank you. Thank you so much. It's lovely. Thank you.

And, yes, The Rage Break. I'm definitely gonna be

listening to that. That sounds amazing. Okay. Thanks. See you next

week. Alright. Bye bye.