Shownotes
Alex Popp is in his first year as the Director of Basketball at The Winchendon School in Winchendon, Massachusetts. Popp most recently served as the Head Coach of the Academic Post-Graduate team at IMG Academy for 5 seasons. Prior to IMG Popp was the Head Coach at Vermont Academy, a perennial NEPSAC power, from 2014 to 2020 where he developed seven top 100 nationally ranked players, two NBA Draft picks, and one McDonald’s All-American. His tenure also saw the team secure the school’s first-ever New England Prep School Championship in 2016.
Popp’s collegiate coaching career includes roles as Director of Basketball Operations at Holy Cross (NCAA Div. I), Associate Head Coach at Middlebury College (NCAA Div. III), and as an Assistant Coach at Springfield College.
As a player, Alex was a three-year letterwinner at D2 Assumption University, after playing his freshman season at the University of Minnesota as a recruited walk-on.
On this episode Mike & Alex discuss the importance of developing players' strengths rather than solely focusing on their weaknesses. Alex shares his insights on cultivating talent and the significance of believing in players’ potential. Throughout the conversation, we explore the nuanced dynamics of coaching at the prep school level, particularly the necessity of fostering an environment that is both competitive and supportive. We also delve into the intricacies of recruiting, highlighting the value of established relationships within the basketball community. Ultimately, this episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of the modern coaching landscape, underpinned by a commitment to player development and the pursuit of excellence.
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Have a notebook by your side as you listen to this episode with Alex Popp, Director of Basketball at The Winchendon School.
Website - https://winchendon.org/sports/basketball/
Email - alex.popp3@gmail.com
Twitter/X - @coachalexpopp
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Transcripts
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Speaker A:Contributing to winning at higher levels is going to require a special skill set that's more narrow.
Speaker A:What I've tried to cultivate with the players of mine that have the most potential is turn the king into an ace Film and with engineering your practices and your workouts is turn the king into an ace.
Speaker A:Find what their strengths are and work on the strengths more than the weaknesses.
Speaker A:I think that's a modern approach to coaching.
Speaker B:Alex Pope is in his first year as the Director of Basketball at the Winchendon School in Winchendon, Massachusetts.
Speaker B:Pope most recently served as the head coach of the academic postgraduate team at IMG Academy for five seasons.
Speaker B: perennial knapsack power from: Speaker B: d Prep school championship in: Speaker B:Pope's collegiate coaching career includes roles as the director of Basketball operations at Holy Cross, the associate head coach at Middlebury College, and as an assistant at Springfield College.
Speaker B:As a player, Alex was a three year letter winner at D2 Assumption University after playing his freshman season at the University of Minnesota as a recruited Walk on hey hoop heads.
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Speaker B:Have a notebook by your side as you listen to this episode with Alex Pope, director of basketball at the Winchendon School.
Speaker B:Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.
Speaker B:It's Mike Cleansing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Alex Pope, new head coach at the Winchendon School.
Speaker B:Alex, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.
Speaker A:Let's go.
Speaker A:Thanks for having me, Mike.
Speaker A:Really appreciate it.
Speaker B:Absolutely thrilled to have you on.
Speaker B:Looking forward to diving into all the interesting things and places you've been in your career.
Speaker B:Let's start by going back in time to when you were a kid.
Speaker B:Tell me a little bit about some of your first experiences with the game.
Speaker B:What you remember, what made you fall in love with it.
Speaker A:Definitely got to start with my.
Speaker A:My old man who was a teacher coach.
Speaker A:He got his start coaching at Lexington High School.
Speaker A:Rolly Massimino got that.
Speaker A:Got that thing rolling.
Speaker A:And then, you know, the stories of him coaching against Patrick Ewing, Caber, Georgian, Latin, and then, you know, him taking me to hundreds of games growing up, I think was definitely the.
Speaker A:The genesis for my passion for the game of basketball, you know, the start of.
Speaker A:Of this journey.
Speaker A:And, yeah, that's it.
Speaker A:You know, my old man gave me the.
Speaker A:The platform and the passion.
Speaker B:When you think about your dad and the influence that he had on you, giving you that love for the game, and then you think about yourself right now as a coach, what are some things that when you look at yourself as a coach, you're like, oh, yeah, I got that from my dad.
Speaker B:I can see where that came from.
Speaker B:Is there anything that stands out in that area?
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:I think my dad's, you know, very approachable with all different types of people, and I think I've kind of inherited that.
Speaker A:He was, you know, he grew up in 15 different places.
Speaker A:You know, the.
Speaker A:He was the son of an, you know, my grandfather was in the service.
Speaker A:And then I think beyond him being so approachable and, you know, enthusiastic is the man believes in people that he works with.
Speaker A:And I think that that's probably, you know, turned into my superpower is I believe the players who I coach and I believe in the, you know, my colleagues who I work with.
Speaker A:And I think that, you know, basketball is a.
Speaker A:A game that brings adversity.
Speaker A:So when you're in the trenches, it certainly is energizing to.
Speaker A:To bring that.
Speaker A:That belief power.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's no Question that when you are on the sideline as a coach or when you're on the court as a player, if you know that the people around you believe in you, have your back and are there to support and encourage you, I don't think that there's any doubt that the performance that you're going to get from players, coaches, a team is going to be stronger.
Speaker B:When you have that kind of bond like you're talking about, and that's something that you well know, that it doesn't always.
Speaker B:That's not always present in every single environment.
Speaker B:There are lots of times where it feels like those different elements of a team are battling each other instead of supporting each other.
Speaker B:And when you get into those situations, I don't think you ever get the best out of your team, whether you're a player on that team or whether you're a coach.
Speaker B:And so that's certainly a great trade, a great characteristic that your dad was able to pass along to you.
Speaker B:Did you realize when you were a kid how lucky you were to have the gym access, that you probably did, just tagging along with him as, as a kid and getting to be able to get in there and have the ball in your hands all the time?
Speaker A:Oh, I did not.
Speaker A:I took it for granted, but now I definitely see it.
Speaker A:You know, hindsight's 20 20.
Speaker A:You know, he would bring me to, you know, pick up games and, you know, I would be playing with, you know, adults, like guys 20 years older than me when I was 10.
Speaker A:And, you know, that certainly helped and I definitely appreciate it now.
Speaker A:And I'll add, Mike, that, you know, the belief thing really serves me in my coaching now because I think the, you know, on the recruiting front, it's, it's very natural for me.
Speaker A:You know, it's authentic that I believe in the families who I'm recruiting.
Speaker A:So I think that that serves the recruiting funnel and then on the back end.
Speaker A:So much of, you know, what I've done in my career is college placement, Mike.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So, you know, having a commitment to that vision I think is really important.
Speaker A:Especially, you know, we can get into it later, but especially in today's climate with transfer portal, you know, finding the right fit has never been more challenging and, and more competitive.
Speaker A:So I think, you know, my old man's got like his, you know, his hand print all over, you know, everything that I do.
Speaker A:That's for sure.
Speaker B:Well, again, when you think about the, the people that influence you, your parent is probably obviously someone who has the, the most influence.
Speaker B:And you spend the most time with.
Speaker B:And so clearly what he passed on to you, not only in a love for the game, but then just again, like you said, the authenticity, the ability to believe in people, the ability to connect with them, all those things, especially in today's world, as you said in coaching, if you can do that, that connection piece is.
Speaker B:Is so important.
Speaker B:You think back maybe 30, 40 years ago, back when I was a player, a long time ago, some of that stuff wasn't maybe as important or wasn't as.
Speaker B:I shouldn't say that.
Speaker B:Not that it wasn't as important, but it maybe wasn't considered to be as important at the time, that connection with players.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:There was a lot more of my way or the highway type of coaching in a lot of places.
Speaker B:And so I think that's one of the ways that over the course of time here, the coaching profession has improved in terms of coaches understanding how important that relationship is with players, to be able to have them know that you care about them as more than just a basketball player.
Speaker B:You care about them as a person, and you care about their academics, you care about their home life, you care about what's going to happen to them once they're off your team.
Speaker B:And when you have that, it just allows you to be able to make that connection and then to be able to hopefully get the most out of those players, to push them, to.
Speaker B:To help them, to be able to get to their potential, whatever that potential may be.
Speaker B:And I think that's something that definitely, when you think about the coaching profession, it's gone in a really positive direction.
Speaker B:Growing up with your dad as a coach, were you thinking the game as a coach, or were you just kind of considering yourself a player?
Speaker B:I know there's kind of two schools of how the way that people get to coaching.
Speaker B:You have the people who knew when they were like 8 years old, they're drawing plays on a napkin, they're coaching their friends, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:And then you have the other side of it where people are playing, they're playing, they love the game, they love the game.
Speaker B:They never really think about coaching.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden, for whatever reason, the ball stops bouncing for them.
Speaker B:Their career ends.
Speaker B:And now they look around, they're like, hey, I got to get into coaching.
Speaker B:With your dad being in the game, which one of those more closely kind of parallels your story?
Speaker A:Yeah, I always knew I wanted to coach.
Speaker A:And I also had the good fortune of having an older sister who's five years older than me, Mike and she won six state championships at the Division 1 level here in Massachusetts, three in tennis, three in soccer.
Speaker A:And I really admired the team culture and, and those coaches that led those programs.
Speaker A:So I got kind of like a front row seat on, you know, team building culture and, you know, what it takes to be successful.
Speaker A:And then the other moment, kind of growing up, they kind of, you know, it was kind of a eureka moment for me, Mike.
Speaker A:It crystallized, like, who I wanted to be long term was, you know, grade seven.
Speaker A:We convinced, you know, our neighbor's mom to take us to go see blue chips.
Speaker A:And while a lot of the content was over the head of, you know, friends, I. I vividly remember, you know, leaving the theater and saying, you know, I. I don't necessarily want to be unethical like Pete Bell was to.
Speaker A:To land, you know, neon.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:However, like, this lifestyle is something that I'm really interested in, you know, so it was blue chips.
Speaker A:It was like he got game and hoop dreams.
Speaker A:You know, my old band took me to see hoop dreams three times in Coolidge Corner.
Speaker A:We were probably the only ones in the theater.
Speaker A:But, you know, those moments, those coaching figures that I got early exposure to, you know, was I was really drawn to, and I. I feel like I was, you know, kind of soaking it all in organically.
Speaker B:Was it a conscious decision at that time?
Speaker B:Are you.
Speaker B:Are you thinking about, hey, as you're playing, are you starting to wonder and go, hey, why are we doing this?
Speaker B:Or maybe we could think about doing that?
Speaker B:Or are you still thinking about the game while you're playing it as a player?
Speaker B:Or are you already thinking the game as a coach?
Speaker B:In other words, are you seeing the big picture of the whole team?
Speaker B:Are you still kind of focused on yourself as an individual while you're playing?
Speaker A:Great question, Mike.
Speaker A:I think high school, even prep school, au, I was a scorer and a really good score, you know, and I think that I was not thinking about the big picture and the coaching front in.
Speaker A:In that, you know, in that role, however, went and walked on at University of Minnesota and then transferred to a Division 2 school assumption where I was kind of in and out of the rotation.
Speaker A:And I think that the humbling experience of being on a scout team or trying to, like, you know, fight and claw into the rotation, that's when I kind of started to think about kind of, you know, how much goes into it.
Speaker A:And I think that, you know, both of those different kind of perspectives and roles really serve me because I can relate to, you know, the athletes who are on you know, different ends of, you know, the spectrum.
Speaker A:And here at prep school, at Winchendon School, you know, we're, we inherit guys that have all kinds of different backgrounds.
Speaker A:Some guys have been coached, some guys are, you know, pretty far along with their understanding of the game and what it takes, and others, you know, don't know how to play with all the.
Speaker A:Without the basketball yet, Mike, you know, so, yeah, great question.
Speaker A:It definitely changed when I got to college and I was fortunate to contribute to winning both at the Division 1 and Division 2 level and, you know, a myriad of different roles.
Speaker A:So, you know, that opened up my eyes.
Speaker B:Walk me back to those decisions so we can maybe take them one at a time.
Speaker B:Let's start with the decision to go to prep school after you finish high school.
Speaker B:Obviously, it's now an area that you've spent quite a bit of time in as a coach.
Speaker B:But tell me about the decision to do that coming out of high school.
Speaker A:So we're talking, you know, 20 plus years ago, Mike.
Speaker A: popular, you know, so it was: Speaker A:And it was, you know, the best decision I ever made.
Speaker A:You know, it's like beside the, you know, the fact that I got better at basketball and I got wonderful experience from being there, you know, a lot of my lifelong relationships stemmed from, you know, that, that postgrad year, like, best man of my wedding was a teammate of mine.
Speaker A:So I think the, the decision, you know, came down to wanting, you know, better recruitment and, and more experience.
Speaker A:And I knew I was, you know, close to, to becoming physically more mature.
Speaker A:So I'm glad I did it for sure.
Speaker B:That leads to the second decision to go to Minnesota.
Speaker B:Talk about that.
Speaker A:Dan Munson, you know, the guy who built up the Gonzaga program, recruited me like I was a scholarship level player.
Speaker A:He had saw me at the Milk House, right, in Orlando, play my best basketball offensively against a Minnesota team with several players that he was actively recruiting.
Speaker A:And his assistant coach, Vic Couch, was juco teammates with my high school coach, Quinton Dale.
Speaker A:Quinton Dale played for Jim Calhoun at Northeastern.
Speaker A:So there were connections and, you know, they put enough effort into recruiting me.
Speaker A:And then I, you know, I took the visit and I fell in love with, you know, the idea of, of learning and getting that Big Ten experience because the other schools recruiting me, you know, were the Browns and Lehigh's and Quinnipiac.
Speaker A:So it was just for an 18 year old, really difficult to say no to.
Speaker A:You know, I'm grateful I was able to, to pull it off.
Speaker A:Definitely was humbling to see what the big business of high major college basketball is for sure.
Speaker A:It's the bottom line, gotta win and, you know, sell tickets and make the tournament, all that.
Speaker B:So here's what's interesting, is that when we talk oftentimes and we're giving advice to players, one of the things that you oftentimes hear is right, find the right fit, which is something that you talked about earlier.
Speaker B:And a lot of times I think people assume that find the right fit is let's say you have one Division 1 offer and 10 Division 2 offers, or if you have one Division 2 offer and a bunch of division threes or whatever within a division, maybe you have one really high level school within that division and then maybe the other ones are more in the center.
Speaker B:And a lot of times the advice that I'll hear is, well, you should go to a place that, you know, if there's only one school recruiting you at that, at that level, that maybe that's not the right fit for you.
Speaker B:And I ended up making a decision similar to the one that you did, where my only Division 1 offer was the one that I took and there were a lot of people that told me, hey, you're not going to play there, they're going to bring in, you're going to get recruited over and this and that and the other thing.
Speaker B:And I always wanted to just, I knew I would have regretted if I hadn't given it a shot.
Speaker B:And I'm guessing that that's your exact sort of motivation is you never know until you go and you give it a try.
Speaker B:And so I guess when I'm talking to kids and I always tell them, I'm like, look, if you have an offer and that coaching staff wants you and to your point earlier believes in you and is willing to give you an opportunity, especially in today's world where you can transfer and it's a much, you know, it's a much easier process than it's ever been in the history of college basketball, it's just interesting that I always think you got to go and give it a shot at the highest level that you can and you can always go back down.
Speaker B:But I just feel like if you don't try it, that at some point you're going to have in the back of your mind, especially if you're a competitive, you're gonna.
Speaker B:You're gonna regret not having given it a shot, if that makes any sense.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that's kind of where your mentality was.
Speaker A:It was my mentality.
Speaker A:And in the back of my mind, I also knew I wanted to coach.
Speaker A:So I, I wanted to, you know, network and soak in as much of a variety of experience as possible.
Speaker A:And I'll add, Mike, that now, you know, working so intimately with college placement every single year with families, I do my best to kind of, you know, illustrate all the different angles.
Speaker A:And I try to recommend going to a place where we feel most confident in cracking the rotation, you know, early on.
Speaker A:However, you know, I, I would add that the vast majority of families are still going to kind of go to the highest bidder and the highest level.
Speaker A:It's so hard to say no to, because we all grow up, you know, falling in love with the game of basketball, and that's the highest level.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:While I, you know, cherish My Division 2 experience, you know, I actually spent time with my head Coach today, Serge DeBerry.
Speaker A:I cherish my three years as a Division 2 player and cherished my time coaching at the Division 3 level at Middlebury College.
Speaker A:You know, we an elite eight, sweet 16.
Speaker A:I coached at Springfield College, birthplace of basketball, with Charlie Brock.
Speaker A:But none of us grow up, you know, as, as kids.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And dreaming of coaching at Division 3 level or Division 2.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's, you know, it's Division 1, it's the NBA.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker A:And I, and I always say, like, we should keep pursuing, you know, the highest level, especially if that energy serves us.
Speaker A:But again, I try to add context and recommend going to a level where you can crack the rotation because I do think it's hard to get better.
Speaker A:It's hard to improve if you're not on the floor during games.
Speaker A:And some athletes are a little bit more needy than others.
Speaker A:And I just feel strongly enough about it to recommend going somewhere where, you know, we're confident they're going to be, you know, in that rotation early.
Speaker A:But, yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's a little complicated.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It really is.
Speaker B:What I've come to.
Speaker B:I almost can put my thought process in.
Speaker B:In two boxes if this is going to.
Speaker B:I don't know if this is going to make any sense to you or to anybody listening, but it makes sense somehow to Me in my own head.
Speaker B:So my own experience, I know that I wanted to try to go and play at the highest level.
Speaker B:When I had one opportunity to do that, I grabbed that opportunity and I did it, and it ended up working out for me.
Speaker B:And it obviously doesn't work out for everyone in the same way that it did for me.
Speaker B:And yet at the same time, I kind of look back now and as a parent and as a coach, and I think that my experience playing the Division 1 level, now I have a son who he'll be a sophomore, he's playing Division 3 basketball.
Speaker B:And I look at the experience that I had playing Division 1 basketball, and then I look at the experience that my son is going to have playing Division 3 basketball.
Speaker B:And in so many ways other than the label of, this is a Division 1 school, this is a Division 3 school.
Speaker B:And not that there aren't differences in ability, and I mean, there's a ton of things that go into it, but ultimately, it's.
Speaker B:It's the experience.
Speaker B:And I think that speaks to what you're talking about.
Speaker B:Where most people, let's face it, as a player, your experience is going to be infinitely better.
Speaker B:If you're in the rotation and you're playing.
Speaker B:No matter how great the school is that you're at, no matter how great the coaching staff is, no matter how much you love your teammates, everybody ultimately wants to play and get on the court.
Speaker B:And if you can play and get on the court in Division 3 or NAI or Division 2 or wherever it is, ultimately that's going to make probably your experience better.
Speaker B:And yet, at the same time, I still go back to my own thing, and I'm like, God, I would.
Speaker B:If I had gone to a Division 3 school, which was mostly the schools that were recruiting me, I would always wondered, could I have.
Speaker B:Could I have made it at this other place?
Speaker B:So there is that sort of juxtaposition between the two of, man, I'm competitive and I want to go to the highest level, but I'm not sure that's the best advice that I should be giving out to other people, if that.
Speaker B:If that makes any sense.
Speaker B:Alex.
Speaker A:No, it's spot on.
Speaker A:Spot on.
Speaker A:It's like it doesn't matter if there's, you know, 20,000 fans or 20, you know, the difference between being, you know, for coach, director of operations versus the head coach or, you know, 13th fan on the roster, walk on versus, you know, sixth man or even a starter, you know, it is, you know, it's significant.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And I think you know, our, our playing careers are, Are numbered.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They're.
Speaker A:They're fleeting.
Speaker A:And, you know, while we're young, I think, you know, getting that on the floor experience is definitely what I'm going to continue to push for with the, the families who I, you know, represent every year.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:What was your favorite moment at Minnesota?
Speaker A:Well, that's a good one.
Speaker A:Probably making the NCAA tournament.
Speaker A:You know, we got to play in Charlotte.
Speaker A:Eight, nine game against Iowa State, Will Blaylock, Curtis Stinson in the backcourt, and North Carolina was the 1 seed.
Speaker A:So, you know, the, the arena was buzzing and, and having that experience was, you know, second to none.
Speaker A:And just being scout team in the Big Ten because, you know, coaches league, especially in, you know, in that, that era, coaches league, I learned so much, and it was fulfilling to contribute to, you know, an NCAA team because, you know, Minnesota's a hockey school, right.
Speaker A:It's not all, you know, to come out of the Big Ten, make the tournament was something that, you know, I'm really proud of.
Speaker B:Yeah, very cool.
Speaker B:All right, I'm gonna ask the same question about Assumption.
Speaker A:So we won seven games my sophomore year with a doormat of the conference and our coach, Serge the Berry, who did this three times, twice at assumption, once at Babson Division 3 school, we were able to turn it around with just higher standards culture.
Speaker A:We won 26 games my senior year, sweet 16 as a brotherhood.
Speaker A:So, you know, being a part of a program that was able to figure it out, definitely, you know, my greatest memory and having a chance to, you know, play for a national championship is really special.
Speaker A:And, you know, I take both of those, those experiences with me as a coach because ultimately, you know, striving to win.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I heard Julian Allen from IMG Academy talk about this, like, when the North Star is the pursuit of excellence, the pursuit of winning, you know, you get a lot done.
Speaker A:You know, you can.
Speaker A:It helps you mold the, the young people, it helps recruiting.
Speaker A:It keeps everybody sharp.
Speaker A:So I think that, you know, having played in multiple NCAA tournaments, it also gives me a little bit of credibility when I speak to, you know, the sacrifice and, and the discipline and the consistent dedication, you know, that's required to, to win.
Speaker A:Because winning is.
Speaker A:It's not easy.
Speaker A:It's not easy to do.
Speaker B:No, it is not.
Speaker B:It is definitely something that doesn't happen by accident.
Speaker B:There is a lot that goes into it from a coaching staff to make sure that what is in place, that is needed to win gets put in place.
Speaker B:And if some of those elements are missing you know as well as anybody that it can go in a different direction very quickly if you don't have the right approach to.
Speaker B:To coaching and building the program.
Speaker B:So tell me about the first job search, getting out of school.
Speaker B:What's the thought?
Speaker B:What do you end up doing?
Speaker B:How do you go about getting the job?
Speaker B:What's the networking situation?
Speaker B:Just walk me through that first job search.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:And I'm sure all the young coaches can appreciate this stuff because it's not easy.
Speaker A:It's an oversaturated field, and I think it's worth it.
Speaker A:While, you know, many of us coaches are getting rich, especially early on, it's such a fulfilling profession, and I don't regret kind of sticking to it, that's for sure.
Speaker A:So when I graduated from Assumption Finance, major business, I. I started a job at Brown Brothers and Harriman on 50 Milk street, downtown Boston.
Speaker A:And after about, I don't know, six weeks, Mike, I went to lunch on a Thursday and did not return and was unapologetic about that and immediately joined Expressions, who's now, you know, one of the, know, prolific EYBL teams.
Speaker A:Back in the day, we weren't even associated with a sneaker company, but jumped on an AU bench and started an internship in the Northeast 10 commissioner's office at Stonehill.
Speaker A:So I went from a real salary and, you know, the ability to, you know, take a girl on a date and, you know, hang out with my friends and golf and all the stuff that, you know, young graduates do to, you know, trying to figure it out.
Speaker A:And so from there, I took a graduate assistant position at Springfield College and.
Speaker A:And that was kind of, you know, my launch pad.
Speaker A:Working with Charlie Brock.
Speaker A:I got to know everybody in the profession.
Speaker A:And with expressions.
Speaker A:With expressions.
Speaker A:Au, we had, you know, 15 Division 1 players.
Speaker A:So the combination of, you know, working for Charlie Brock and his network and then having really good players on the AU circuit, you know, really helped me early on with building relationships with the, you know, the business.
Speaker B:Your experience.
Speaker B:You lasted six.
Speaker B:You went six weeks longer in a job than I did when I graduated, when I graduated from school.
Speaker B:So I graduated.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:Both my parents, Alex.
Speaker B:My mom was an elementary school teacher.
Speaker B:My dad was a college professor.
Speaker B:So I graduated and went out and went on some interviews for jobs.
Speaker B:I was a business major and went out and actually had an interview with Nestle, the big food company, and they offered me a job and they said this was like, I don't know, whatever.
Speaker B:I graduated in May.
Speaker B:I had the interview, like in end of May or Beginning of June, they're like, yeah, we're gonna have you start on July 1st.
Speaker B:I remember I went home and I was talking to my dad, and I'm like, they.
Speaker B:I think they want me to put on a suit and go to work on July 1st.
Speaker B:I'm like, I've never seen, you know, like, you and mom have never worked.
Speaker B:You know, nobody in our family's ever worked in July.
Speaker B:Like, I. I don't think I could do this.
Speaker B:And I think I'm gonna go back to school and get a teaching certificate and try to teach.
Speaker B:Try to teach and try to teach and coach.
Speaker B:So I didn't even.
Speaker B:I didn't even take the job.
Speaker B:I figured it out.
Speaker B:I figured it out before I even took it.
Speaker B:So I can definitely relate to the idea of, yeah, it seems like a good idea.
Speaker B:And then, nah, I don't think I want to do that for the rest of my life.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Completely can relate to that.
Speaker A:I wasn't willing to be miserable and just to, you know, make wealthy people, you know, even wealthier.
Speaker A:It just.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, so much of that's the passion for the game, but, you know, the foundation family, you know, being around a teacher, coach.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So when you get that GA position at Springfield, you know, immediately.
Speaker B:I mean, obviously you had a pretty good understanding of coaching from your experience with your dad and.
Speaker B:And then you get your experience with aau and you had kind of been thinking about it for a while, but you get in there and you actually have the job.
Speaker B:What do you remember about the first week or two on that job?
Speaker B:Were you just like, immediately, like, man, I am.
Speaker B:I know I'm in the right place because whatever.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker B:Whatever that reasoning was at the time.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Well, I fortunate to be around Charlie Brock and Pete Broca, who were, you know, New England legends, and they were able to educate me on the X's and O's.
Speaker A:And I was also fortunate to be in the trenches with another grad assistant who knew how to recruit and was super organized.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then my role was kind of player development and passion and energy and like a players coach.
Speaker A:And I'm grateful that I had, you know, I brought that to the table because I. I didn't know how much went into recruiting and I didn't know how to watch film in a way that prepared us for scouting reports.
Speaker A:So it took time.
Speaker A:It took time, you know, being able to see all 10 players on the floor at once.
Speaker A:You know, some players have that early on.
Speaker A:The majority of young guys, they don't even if they play for coaches who, you know, like myself, are, you know, over the top passionate about film.
Speaker A:So it took some time, you know, and I'm, I was kind of nestled in with the, the perfect crew of characters because we kind of, you know, balanced out each other's strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker A:And so having two years to kind of figure out what my weaknesses were helped set me on my, my journey.
Speaker A:Mike.
Speaker A:Because once I got to Middlebury College, I did not have anybody to lean on.
Speaker A:I was the, you know, associate head coach.
Speaker A:And so, and the, the coaches and, and the Nescat can really coach, especially, you know, their half court stuff.
Speaker A:You know, it's like on a Friday, Saturday, you know, we're looking at a complex ball screen continuity.
Speaker A:And then, you know, Mike Maker was running all John Beeline stuff the next night and those, both of those scouts would be my responsibility.
Speaker A:So getting thrown into the deep end was fantastic.
Speaker A:But I think it, the, you know, the reason I was able to handle it is because I kind of knew where I was.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:All of us have three X's, where we've been, where we're at, where we're trying to go.
Speaker A:I knew I had a long way to go, so I, I tripled down on, on film and then being organized with recruiting because I knew that naturally, you know, I was gifted on the court with bringing energy and kind of picking up everybody's spirits on a consistent basis.
Speaker B:What area did you like learning about the most when you get that first job over those first couple years?
Speaker B:What, what area of coaching were you like?
Speaker B:Man, I, I just, I can't get enough of this aspect of coaching.
Speaker B:What, what served that purpose for you?
Speaker A:I would say defensive coverages and then, you know, everything like on ball, off ball, pick and roll, defense, and then, you know, offensive execution based on what we were anticipating from their defense, you know, and I think that, you know, it, that the kind of the adjustments before, you know, leading up to a conference weekend is what, you know, excited me the most.
Speaker A:And I vividly remember, you know, one of my favorite, know, all time moments at Middlebury College was when it was the 75th anniversary of college basketball.
Speaker A:So the, the Division 2 and Division 3 NCAA tournaments were spread out so they could have all three divisions in Atlanta, you know, in one city.
Speaker A:So we were playing one game a week and I felt like I was like a, you know, football defensive coordinator.
Speaker A:We played Ithaca with a chance to go to the Elite eight and eight games into their season because we had enough time to watch every single game like eight games into their season, they threw out everything that they were doing, went to a high pick and roll and like a simple, you know, screen to screener.
Speaker A:And then they, they played triangle and two for 40 minutes.
Speaker A:And it was like getting in the war room and preparing for, you know, games like that.
Speaker A:I think, you know, certainly helped mold me when it was my time to become a head coach.
Speaker A:You know, I was very, very fortunate to work for four head coaches that, that were gifted in different areas and, you know, I took a little bit from each one of them.
Speaker A:But yeah, those, those Middlebury College scouts had a lasting impression on me.
Speaker A:You know, it was like Jeff Brown let me, he let me run with it and I'm, I'm grateful for that.
Speaker B:Yeah, being able to put together, I've talked to so many coaches on here, Alex, about just being able to confidently put together a scout, right.
Speaker B:You start your career and you kind of, as you said, have no idea what you should be looking for, what you need to look for.
Speaker B:And then obviously if you're, you have to know what your, what your head coach wants and what things they like to know about the opponent.
Speaker B:And so you put all those things together and there's just so many things that go into it.
Speaker B:And then I know from talking to so many assistants then you have, have especially your first couple, then there's a lot of pressure on you when you have that first scouting report and you gotta, you hope, you hope your team comes through for you and, you know, and wins you some of those games of the first couple times.
Speaker B:You're the, you're the main, you're the main guy responsible for the scout.
Speaker B:You're like, come on, fellas, we need something from you guys tonight.
Speaker B:So that makes me, makes me look good with what I, with what I put together here on here on paper for the scout.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Always interesting.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker B:Tell me about Spike.
Speaker A:Like, I've had guys that are like, way smarter than me and super coachable.
Speaker A:You know, when I got my first head coaching job, you know, I had the kid Bruce Brown for two years and he won a ring with the Denver Nuggets, but he was the most coachable guy I've ever been around and, you know, he would get the other four players on the floor to buy in.
Speaker A:So that certainly gave me confidence and yeah, no doubt tradition of winning and, you know, those guys were just super mature.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that, that certainly matters.
Speaker A:You can't do it without the players, man.
Speaker B:No, there's no doubt.
Speaker B:And goes back to what you Said right off the top, right, you got to get guys to be able to buy in and you got to have belief in them.
Speaker B:And then when you have belief in them, that allows them to have belief in you.
Speaker B:And as, as it's always been said to me that when the players know that you have their best interest at heart and you're there to make them better and to make their team win, then they're much more likely to believe in what you're doing.
Speaker B:And ultimately, I think it's the belief is a two way street and when it is a two way street and the traffic's going both directions, that's when you really put together something special without, without question.
Speaker B:Tell me about your time at Holy Cross at the Division 1 level.
Speaker A:You know, got to work with Milan Brown and we were coming off a season where, you know, expectations weren't met and so the pressure was on.
Speaker A:And even as a director of ops, I was able to, you know, have a lot of responsibility, you know, and Milan knew I was more of a basketball guy than, than administrator.
Speaker A:And we, we started off 03 in Patriot League and Milan gave me more responsibility.
Speaker A:Kind of just, we're kind of throwing ideas around.
Speaker A:It's one of like the, you know, best moments of my, of my coaching career, especially as an assistant.
Speaker A:And the very next game, you know, the, the three or four concepts that we implemented were they, they forced Colgate, you know, into timeouts.
Speaker A:It was, it was really a momentum builder.
Speaker A:And from there, you know, he gave me the full access to synergy and I became kind of like, you know, the assistant to every scout.
Speaker A:And he started calling me Beautiful Mind because the, the whiteboard would be littered with every single, you know, action and set that our upcoming opponent ran not only for that season but, you know, the year prior.
Speaker A:So we were, you know, I think that, you know, you talked about belief being a two way street.
Speaker A:The players would roll into the office and, you know, while they have no idea how much actually goes into it as players, you know, they could see the tangible, you know, grind that was going on with preparation.
Speaker A:And we went on an 11 game winning streak after starting out 0 and 3 in conference play.
Speaker A:So, you know, it was just a fun, you know, ride.
Speaker A:And I'm not saying because we put in, you know, three plays that the director brought the table is why, but, you know, it's really cool to see kind of how confidence can, can become contagious.
Speaker A:And we won 20 games, Mike.
Speaker A: s since the Ralph Willard era: Speaker A: You know, it was: Speaker A:And so I've been really fortunate, Mike.
Speaker A:I've been around a lot of, like, late bloomers, guys that end up overachieving and playing longer than people kind of anticipate.
Speaker A:And it's kind of who I want to be and who kind of who I've become, right, As a.
Speaker A:As a coach that, you know, works with guys that, you know, figure it out late.
Speaker A:And I love that because they're.
Speaker A:Those guys are coachable, they're hungry, and they appreciate, you know, the.
Speaker A:The effort and the support that you give them as a coach.
Speaker B:How often do you reference those two stories with players that you're recruiting or players that are on your team that you're coaching?
Speaker B:How often do you refer back to, say, look, these guys, here's where they were at X point in their career, and eventually they both got to play on NBA championship teams.
Speaker A:Not enough.
Speaker A:Not enough.
Speaker A:Mike Jordan Wara won an NBA championship at the Milwaukee Bucks.
Speaker A:And before he did post grad, you know, he was, you know, looking at Division 2.
Speaker A:Canisius was flirting with giving him an offer, but, you know, he wasn't a Division 1 guy.
Speaker A:And then, you know, he does the additional year and, you know, he chooses Louisville over Georgia Tech top 10, and, you know, every statistical category of the ACC and, you know, winds up, you know, get on a championship culture.
Speaker A:So three of my players who, you know, maybe weren't forecasted as NBA guys have gone on to win NBA championships.
Speaker A:And I think that's pretty special for any coach.
Speaker A:I mean, there's probably high major Division 1 programs that don't have three alums who've won NBA rings.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think it's cool for recruits to hear that.
Speaker A:But, you know, I try to also add that, like, everybody's journey is going to be different.
Speaker A:And just because, you know, you might not make it to the NBA, I'm still going to give you the same energy, dedication and passion that I gave any of those guys that were top 100 players.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker B:What if you had to pinpoint one or two things that set those guys apart from the average player?
Speaker B:Obviously, when you get to that level, there's a certain level of talent, tools that everybody has when you get to the NBA level.
Speaker B:But what.
Speaker B:What allows guys to get there is some of those intangible things.
Speaker B:So when you think about the intangibles that those guys brought to the table.
Speaker B:And you can just cite one thing or maybe one thing for each guy or however you want to approach the question.
Speaker B:But what set a guy like those guys apart that enabled them to get to the level, the highest level of the game?
Speaker A:They wanted to be coached, Mike.
Speaker A:And I think also while I would never admit it while I was coaching them because I wanted to kind of always be striving for more, I was always under construction, I'll admit now they were likable dudes, you know, and I think that when you're getting recruitment, it certainly accelerates the process when, you know, your reputation becomes, you know, hey, this guy's, he's got professionalism, maturity, he's likable.
Speaker A:We can see him, you know, blending in, in our locker room.
Speaker A:And all three of those dudes are different, much different, but guys who are likable in the locker room, you know, and I think that, you know, all young players should hear that because, you know, being a great teammate, it just, you know, makes you a better player.
Speaker A:You're just a more impactful dude when you're a great teammate.
Speaker B:The phrase willing to be coached, I think that's something that we hear a lot.
Speaker B:And I think when I hear it as a coach, and I think when coaches hear it, they understand what that means.
Speaker B:But I'm not sure when I talk to players that players really understand what willing to be coached means.
Speaker B:I think that they don't go nearly as far with the idea of willing to be coached as what a coach think it thinks it means.
Speaker B:So tell me in your mind, what's the definition on the ground looking at a player?
Speaker B:Give me some concrete examples of what is willing to be coached looks like.
Speaker B:What does that look like for you when you're coaching a player?
Speaker B:What does willing to be coached look like?
Speaker A:And showing up with consistency comes, comes to mind, Mike, I think, you know, especially when, you know, the season becomes grueling and adversity strikes.
Speaker A:Being able to show up with professionalism when you don't really feel like it.
Speaker A:So can, you know, being consistent would be first and foremost.
Speaker A:And then I think that, you know, being willing to be coached isn't, you know, the guy, the player who's willing to get screamed at by, you know, the old school, Bob Knight.
Speaker A:You know, I referenced Pete Bell earlier in the, in the podcast.
Speaker A:I think it's kind of like a curiosity and a willing to, you know, be vulnerable in film sessions and to be open minded because I think so much of being coachable is being comfortable with, you know, the fact that you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker A:And then I think tying it all together, I use this phrase with all my teams is like a willingness to.
Speaker A:Ready for this, Mike, is to be a warrior in the garden.
Speaker A:So you're not a gardener in the war.
Speaker A:And what that means is being willing to have the uncomfortable conversations and to, you know, have a great relationship with criticism.
Speaker A:We call it feed forward.
Speaker A:It's not feedback, it's feed forward.
Speaker A:And when you can have direct communication with your coaching staff and with your teammates in preparation for what it is you're doing, I think that sets you apart.
Speaker A:Because then when it's game time, showtime, you can concentrate on playing basketball and you're not distracted by all of the different things that distract us from, you know, playing the game that we love, playing the game to win.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's.
Speaker A:That's kind of the way I see it is, you know, that curiosity, the leadership, the intangibles and consistency.
Speaker B:I love it, man.
Speaker B:I love the curiosity point.
Speaker B:I think it's a great one, right?
Speaker B:Because the best players that I've ever been around as a player or a coach, they always kind of want to know more.
Speaker B:They're never satisfied with, like, okay, I'm good enough at this.
Speaker B:Best players almost never get to.
Speaker B:I'm satisfied with where I'm at.
Speaker B:There's always.
Speaker B:I can always take it 1% more.
Speaker B:And then they're always asking and trying to figure out, well, how can I make this move slightly more efficient?
Speaker B:Or how can I allow myself to be able to get into this position more often where I can attack from or whatever it may be.
Speaker B:And they're always looking for help.
Speaker B:That's one of the things you always hear right at the NBA draft or the combine or whatever.
Speaker B:It's like the great guys always want to be coached.
Speaker B:They're asking questions, they're in a workout, and they're.
Speaker B:They're working out the coaching staff the same way the coaching staff is, is working them out.
Speaker B:They're trying to learn from that workout as they're preparing for the draft.
Speaker B:And to me, when you hear about those kinds of players, the word curiosity, I think, fits perfectly.
Speaker B:I think that was a really good answer in terms of what sets guys apart that really take it to the next level.
Speaker B:And clearly you've had some experience with guys that have been able to experience that.
Speaker B:And I think the answer that you just shared is something that if players are listening and Obviously, coaches can use it as well, but I think it's really valuable for players to hear some of those comments because so often we hear cliches and we don't necessarily.
Speaker B:Players don't necessarily approach those or think about them in the same way that we do as coaches.
Speaker B:I think sometimes it's.
Speaker B:It's good to be able to break it down like you just did so they understand what's.
Speaker B:Willingness to be coded.
Speaker B:What does that mean?
Speaker B:Like, yeah, I'm willing to be coached, but are you willing to be coached in a way that your coaching staff is, is thinking about it.
Speaker B:You may be thinking about it in a totally different way than what they are.
Speaker B:And so I think to be able to, yeah.
Speaker A:Being able to align with what's being emphasized, I think is, is worth adding to.
Speaker A:Like, you know, we, if we try to emphasize too much, then we're not emphasizing anything at all.
Speaker A:And I think that the most mature guys that I've coached and the ones that, you know, have reached their potential are comfortable with, you know, the simplicity of what it is we're trying to do, you know, because I think I, you know, I see it.
Speaker A:I worked at IMG for, you know, for five years and kind of being bought into what your head coach, your head coach's vision is so important, you know, and not trying to, you know, work with your Skill trainer on 17, you know, combo dribble moves when you know your role is A, B or C. You know, I think like a commitment to what the coaching staff is, is emphasizing is definitely part of, of what we're talking about.
Speaker B:All right, let me follow up on that because this is a, I think an interesting conversation when it comes to player development.
Speaker B:And I always reference a conversation that I had with Mike Rocopio, who at the time, Mike is with the Dallas Mavericks.
Speaker B:And what he, what he told me was, you know, you get to the league and guys 10, 11, 12 on a roster now you got two way guys and whatever, but the back end of an NBA rost roster that he spent a ton of time in player development just trying to work with those guys on, you need one elite skill that is going to allow you to get in the game and keep your roster spot.
Speaker B:And when you talked about a guy working with a trainer and doing 17 dribble moves and this and that and all these other things, so often as you go up in levels of the game, you have to fill a role, right?
Speaker B:A high school player, you're probably the best player on your team.
Speaker B:You got the ball in your hands all the time.
Speaker B:You're getting to take pretty much whatever shot you want, you get to do whatever you want, you get to college and at most maybe there's one guy on a college team and oftentimes there's zero guys on a college team that just the coach hands on the ball and says, go do, go do, you know, go do your thing.
Speaker B:And then you get to the highest level at the NBA and, and sure, maybe every team has a guy who's the main guy, but there Maybe is only 10 guys in the whole league who kind of get to just have the ball and dictate terms and do whatever they want.
Speaker B:And yet when you think about how players develop, right, it's almost, it's almost counterintuitive in that when a kid is young, we try to teach them everything.
Speaker B:We want them to be able to dribble, pass, shoot, rebound, all these different skills.
Speaker B:And then the reality is as you go up in levels, the player development also be almost becomes more specified.
Speaker B:Like, dude, you don't need to be able to dribble the ball and break down defenses and penetrate and run, pick and roll.
Speaker B:You need to just be able to stand in the corner, hit threes, maybe do a simple drive by and a kick and that's it.
Speaker B:And it just is so interesting when you think about trying to someone in your position, where you're working with kids at a prep school, right, who everybody's goal there is to be able to move on and to play college basketball.
Speaker B:And so I think players so often think I gotta be able to do it all, I gotta be this do it all guy.
Speaker B:And yet the chances are when they get to college, they're gonna have a specific role within their team.
Speaker B:And so I'm just curious how you think about at your level right now, at the prep school level, how do you think about player development and how do you think about those conversations that you have with kids about where they're going to fit in both on your team, but then kind of projecting them forward as a college athlete.
Speaker A:That's good stuff, Mike.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's an art and a science, right.
Speaker A:And I think that what's not lost on me as a 40 year old, you know, dad and you know, guy that's been around the game for a long time is that it still needs to be fun and energizing, invigorating.
Speaker A:So there is a time and place for kind of, you know, trying some different thing with different things with player development.
Speaker A:But that being said, I could not agree with you more with what you're saying in terms of, you know, contributing to winning at higher levels is going to require a special skill set that's more narrow.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like I worked basketball camp the last two days, the all academic camp at Babson, 500 campers.
Speaker A:And I, you know, I did a bunch of player evaluations and I, you know, I treat it like, you know, we're doing NBA draft work.
Speaker A:Like it, it means a lot to me.
Speaker A:There's so many different categories that I was evaluating and I just kept on thinking to myself, I like I could care less what you're off the dribble, you know, pull up shot looks like at this stage in your career.
Speaker A:And I don't care about your weekend, I don't care about you trying to catch the ball with one hand.
Speaker A:The list goes on and on and on.
Speaker A:Because you know, I think what I've tried to cultivate with my, the players of mine that have the most potential is, you know, turn the king into an ace.
Speaker A:You know, if you're a special shot maker instead of trying to work on tween, tween cross and you know, a million isolation moves or pick and roll reads, it's like, let's just get you like to a point where you're automatic off of a pin down off of a flare, you know, an early transition and your, your conditioning allows you to shoot the basketball at the same clip from start to finish in a game.
Speaker A:So my, my, it's a long winded answer, Mike, but I think like the best way I can describe it is it's, it's important for us leaders to have a gym that is fun to, to you know, be involved with and like guys enjoy showing up for practice and, and not kind of like, you know, making it too sterile but also like, you know, with film and with you know, engineering your practices and your workouts is, you know, turn the king into an ace.
Speaker A:Find, find what their strengths are and work on the strengths more than the weaknesses.
Speaker A:I think that's kind of probably the modern approach to coaching.
Speaker B:Tell me about the fun piece of it in your mind.
Speaker B:What do you do as a coach to make your environment on a day to day basis?
Speaker B:What are some things that make the game fun?
Speaker B:Because obviously there's two.
Speaker B:This is again, I think a player thing, right?
Speaker B:That there's two different ways to define fun.
Speaker B:Fun is we're working hard, we're getting better, it's in an enjoyable environment.
Speaker B:It's not necessarily being screamed at all the time.
Speaker B:There's that.
Speaker B:And then there's the silly fun that sometimes if you're a 13, 14, 15 year old kid, sometimes that's what they see in practice, right?
Speaker B:That, that's, that that's fun, that we're joking around.
Speaker B:And so there's two different, there are two different kinds of fun.
Speaker B:So in your mind, when you're thinking about, I want my practices in my environment to be fun, how do you define that in your own mind?
Speaker B:And then what does that look like on the court for both you and your team?
Speaker A:That was another great question, Mike.
Speaker A:I think that every team, every season kind of takes on its own personality.
Speaker A:So I think meeting the group and meeting the individuals where they are is first and foremost.
Speaker A:But I think, you know, when I think about fun, it's, you know, it's energy, it's compete level and it's like a sincere effort where guys are doing their best on that day.
Speaker A:You know, it's not always, you know, for every player, it's not always going to be perfect.
Speaker A:I coach teenagers, you know, they're 18, 19 years old.
Speaker A:They're trying to figure out how to be consistent, but you can tell if they're doing their best.
Speaker A:So I think for me, it's energy, you know, and it's, it's volume, you know, like Kelvin Sampson talks about you, you know, you can never hear a losing team, right?
Speaker A:But like a winning team, you know, it's early, loud, often, and guys are communicating with each other, they're playing to win, they're competing.
Speaker A:And yeah, I think that, to me, that's, that's a lot of fun.
Speaker A:And it might, it might not be like, you know, guys aren't always happy in that environment, but they're gonna, they're gonna have fulfillment, you know, and, and satisfaction because they're going to be, you know, getting a little bit better every day.
Speaker A:So I think fun is probably, you know, not the ideal terminology.
Speaker A:I think kind of like energy and pursuit of a victory and competing is probably where I want to kind of, you know, put my energy.
Speaker B:It's kind of like the marathon runner right in the, at the 20 mile marker of the marathon, you may not, if you ask the marathoner, hey, are you having, are you having fun right now?
Speaker B:It depends on what your definition of fun is.
Speaker B:Certainly there's, there's satisfaction, there's hard work that goes into that.
Speaker B:And the marathoner, when the marathon's over, is going to look back at mile marker 20 and say, man, that was fun in the moment.
Speaker B:It doesn't necessarily always feel like, hey, we're having a party and the, you know, the, the fireworks are going off, but you're creating an environment where, again, like you said, you're bringing enthusiasm every day.
Speaker B:Players are communicating with you, you're communicating with them, they're communicating with each other.
Speaker B:And you've just created an environment where players can compete.
Speaker B:And I think when you do that and you give guys an opportunity to, to go at one another and to compete and to know that you, as their coaching staff, have their back, you want them to get better, you're helping them to fulfill their goal, both in the moment of trying to become the best player they can, trying to help your team win, but also with an eye on maybe what's next for them, especially coaching like you do at the prep school level, where, you know, guys have goals beyond the year that you're coaching them, and they know that you're helping them in that process as well.
Speaker B:And all those things, I think, kind of fit together to create that fun environment that you're talking about and produce the kind of culture and the kind of team that is going to allow for the players to have success and be able to look back on and go, yeah, that, that's fun.
Speaker B:That's, that's what, that's what competing and being a basketball player is all about.
Speaker A:Let's add one thing, like, the players will think it's fun if you and I are cultivating an environment that gives them a competitive advantage on game day.
Speaker A:You know, if, if we're, if we're doing enough in a creative sense, that gives us an advantage for when we play the actual games.
Speaker A:The players, you know, they will enjoy that for sure.
Speaker B:I had, I had on the back of one of my camp T shirts a couple years ago, I had to saying, it's fun to be good.
Speaker B:And I think that's what it comes down to with coaching.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Part of our job as coaches is to make our players and make our teams good at what we do.
Speaker B:And if we do that, that's fun.
Speaker B:That's fun.
Speaker B:Like you said, giving them a competitive advantage.
Speaker B:Tell me about going from an assistant to a head coach.
Speaker B:And now you're going to be in your, what, third experience as a head?
Speaker B:Third different spot as a head coach at IMG and at the Vermont school.
Speaker B:So what was the transition like going from being an assistant to being the head coach and, and being the guy making the ultimate decisions for a program?
Speaker A:Energizing, invigorating.
Speaker A:You know, I always wanted to be a Head coach.
Speaker A:And that was, you know, this is a lot of fun.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I think the.
Speaker A:The best part about it is you get to make your own mistakes, and you grow as a result from that.
Speaker A:And I think that, you know, I'm going to do my homework, I'm going to prepare relentlessly.
Speaker A:Mike.
Speaker A:And I think that one of my superpowers has always been my conviction, you know, and sometimes, you know, I guess wrong.
Speaker A:And we make so many decisions as coaches, you know, you can't get them all right, can't possibly keep everybody, you know, happy.
Speaker A:But I think having that conviction can be contagious.
Speaker A:You know, I think the best athletes, the best programs, the best coaches, you know, they.
Speaker A:They believe in what they're doing.
Speaker A:So I think doing enough homework and having enough of a feel for, for the group and what it is you're trying to do and then having conviction with the, with the decision making, I think is.
Speaker A:Has been kind of what's been most important for me as I've moved from, you know, you know, from one seat to the next.
Speaker A:And I think that, you know, as an assistant coach, too, I think, you know, if you have the mindset that you're going to be a head coach, you're a better assistant coach.
Speaker A:So I think that the transition was relatively smooth for me.
Speaker B:Where do you go to learn?
Speaker B:When you talk about the preparation, the conviction to believe in what it is that you do, how do you go about continuing to learn and grow as a coach?
Speaker B:Where.
Speaker B:Where are you going?
Speaker B:What are you looking to?
Speaker B:Are you watching European basketball?
Speaker B:Are you.
Speaker B:Are you a big leadership book guy?
Speaker B:Are you.
Speaker B:What is it?
Speaker B:Your network?
Speaker B:Where are you going to learn and continuing to grow as you've gone through your head coaching career?
Speaker A:All of it, Mike.
Speaker A:And I think that, you know, the emergence of these types of podcasts have certainly accelerated the process.
Speaker A:But I would also say that, you know, your podcast, Basketball Immersion, Slapping Glass, they've also made it almost too convenient for me that you asking that question is a good reminder that I need to go ahead and, you know, get back in the trenches with, you know, the old school coaching clinics and coaching consortiums.
Speaker A:I mean, when I was at Vermont Academy, you know, every.
Speaker A:Every summer, we would invite, you know, 50 to 75 coaches and just get in a room and have three or four speakers on different topics and kind of hash stuff out.
Speaker A:And I would also, you know, seek those opportunities.
Speaker A:It was like, the more underground, the better, right?
Speaker A:I would, you know, one of my favorite coaching clinics as a ga At Springfield College, I would go to Blair Academy down in New Jersey and learn from, you know, the Tony Bennett's of the world and guys like that and they become your network.
Speaker A:So I think combination of, you know, taking advantage of all these new platforms that have kind of surfaced in the last five or six years and then, you know, old school networking, you know, it helps to have good players too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because coaches are willing to give their time and resources.
Speaker A:They'll come in and do some chalk talk with us on the whiteboard, you know, after watching an open gym of a guy they're recruiting.
Speaker A:And yeah, I also like to read, you know, psychology and sports books and I'd like to think I try to try to do it all, Mike.
Speaker A:And what I've also enjoyed about the coaching journey is when you revisit stuff that, you know, you studied 10 years ago, it takes on a different meaning because, you know, we've, you know, we've seen so much more.
Speaker A:Like what I know today versus what I knew five years ago is astronomical.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I hope to continue that trend.
Speaker A:And I think that being a lifelong learner is important for our players to see too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we're not hypocrites.
Speaker A:We're not telling them to get out of their comfort zone and grow when they can see us working on our craft.
Speaker A:You know, indirectly it helps what we're doing.
Speaker B:It really does.
Speaker B:I mean, I think that clearly the game is constantly changing and evolving and the coaching profession, like we talked about earlier, is constantly changing and evolving.
Speaker B:And we as coaches have to continue to change and evolve with the game.
Speaker B:And so you have to stay on top of things.
Speaker B:And yeah, I've had so many coaches, Alex, talk about the old school coaching clinics.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:How many people missed the, the Nike championship clinics?
Speaker B:There used to be one here in Cleveland that was huge that everybody from all across the country would come into a Holiday Inn in Independence, Ohio and go to those old Nike Ed Jank.
Speaker B:I used to run those old Nike, you know, the Nike coaching clinics.
Speaker B:And you still see them around some, but certainly they're not nearly what they, you know, what they used to be.
Speaker B:And then I think the other thing that's been lost, you know, you talked about going and working at the, you know, the all academic camp, but you think about 20, 30 years ago, just the college camp circuit and the number of coaches that you'd go and you'd have these whatever camps and I worked at Ohio State's camp, I worked at the University of Michigan's camp when I was when I was playing.
Speaker B:And you know, you just have, whatever you come in and there's, there's a hundred coaches from college, you know, small college coaches, high school coaches.
Speaker B:And then, you know, what are you doing at night?
Speaker B:You're going and sitting down and guys are talking and doing this and that.
Speaker B:And I think that's one of the things that, that in person learning is something that I think everybody misses to some degree.
Speaker B:Because like you said, now it's so easy to just, I mean, you can just sit there with your phone, right?
Speaker B:And you got all the podcasts, you got all the YouTube, you've got.
Speaker B:And again, you guys at the, at, you know, different levels, you have access to synergy or if you're at the high school level, you can get on huddle and, and just there, there's so much that you can learn just from sitting in a chair at your house.
Speaker B:But there is something to be said for getting out and just talking to people and kind of having that, that face to face communication, which I will say I know from talking to many guys at IMG that that was one of the things that every single person I've ever talked to who's worked at IMG has told me that the best part of it is just the fact that your office is next to 10 or 12 or 15 other coaches who are just as passionate about the game as you are.
Speaker B:And so the ability to have somebody watch your practice, or you go watch their practice, or you're sitting down with them, or you're just taking a couple guys out on the court and talking through it.
Speaker B:So tell me about your experience at IMG and just how that accelerated your.
Speaker B:Whether it's learning process or just again, accentuated the love of the game that you already have.
Speaker B:Just being around other guys that had that same passion as you did.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was ridiculous because I'm a basketball junkie, Mike.
Speaker A:And you're surrounded by other basketball junkies.
Speaker A:And I also think that, you know, the competitive nature of all his coaches was, you know, also cultivated there where you're, you know, you want your preparation to, you know, meet the, you know, the average or the expectations.
Speaker A:So any weaknesses that you might have as a, as a head coach will get exposed and that's exactly what you want.
Speaker A:And then the organic water cooler talk, you know, with the Julian Allens and Kevin Suttons and you know, Jimmy Carr's and Mike Rose, the list goes on.
Speaker A:All these overqualified coaches and, and actually one of the first coaches, New England coaches that went down To IMG was Bob Walsh and he was the first technical director.
Speaker A:And I have to add that like one of my favorite all time roundtable coaching clinics was at Bob Walsh's house.
Speaker A:And he, you know, former head coach of Maine, he's on Rick patino staff at St. John's now, Bob Walsh's house in Newport.
Speaker A: And this is, you know,: Speaker A:But the, the cast of characters there, Mike, you know, Tobin Anderson was, was in the house that day and you know, he's the, the guy that, you know, was with.
Speaker A:He was the head coach of Fairly Dickinson when they, they knocked off number one C Purdue.
Speaker A:Zach Boyver was in the building.
Speaker A:You know, he runs the pick and pop.net and is like the coaching clinic hoop junkie of hoop junkies.
Speaker A:And then Tyler Sims, now head coach at Clark, very successful program.
Speaker A:They won the new Mac, competitive Division 3 conference here in New England.
Speaker A:So it was neat to see all of those guys blossom and I had no idea that these communities and conversations existed.
Speaker A:So I vividly remember being passionate about pursuing a coaching career and after spending time with those guys talking about hoops in a, in like a detailed, nuanced way, absolutely lit me on fire.
Speaker A:I mean, I was energized for the rest of that summer.
Speaker A:The other hoop, the other coaching clinic that I, I was fortunate enough to be a part of as a young coach was at Columbia Elite Camp.
Speaker A:And talk about like a who's who of, of coaches in our industry.
Speaker A:You know, the head coach at Columbia at the time was, was Kyle Smith.
Speaker A:Now he's the head coach at Stanford.
Speaker A:His assistants, Colby Altman, who's now, you know, president of operations, Cleveland Cavaliers, Todd golden, head coach of Florida national champion Kevin Hubby, now the head coach of Columbia, Mike Magpio, head coach at Fordham, and all those guys under one roof talking shop.
Speaker A:I had no idea, you know, that all of them were gonna, you know, become millionaires coaching our game.
Speaker A:But those were influential experiences for me and they gave me confidence because, you know, while I didn't know a fraction of what these guys were talking about, it gave me confidence to kind of sharpen my trajectory of learning and be more, even more curious and, and to attack, you know, more conversations about, you know, all the different nuances of coaching the game, you know, of basketball.
Speaker A:So, yeah, those two experiences, you know, definitely helped shape me.
Speaker A:And yeah, and IMG was like.
Speaker A:I was like a, a kid at a candy store, Mike.
Speaker A:It was ridiculous.
Speaker B:Just everybody that I talked to from down there, Alex, just in terms of the, the facilities, the Resources again, the people, it just, it's, it's crazy.
Speaker B:I've had Kevin Sutton on twice and Kevin just is a great guy and an incredible basketball mind.
Speaker B:And to have him again be associated with img, it's to be able to spend time there.
Speaker B:I can only imagine the amount of learning that any person.
Speaker B:I don't care, I don't care what level of knowledge you come in there with.
Speaker B:You're leaving with an incredible amount more than what you came in there with.
Speaker B:Tell me about the experience, the decision to come to Winchendon.
Speaker B:Leave img.
Speaker B:Obviously you're a northeast guy, so I'm assuming that that probably had something to do with your decision.
Speaker B:Maybe not, but I'm assuming maybe it had a little bit to do with it.
Speaker B:But just talk about the experience or the opportunity at Winchendon, what attracted you to it, and then we'll kind of get into sort of where you are in the process of preparing for the upcoming season and kind of your, your overall role and, and job description there.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think I was ready to, you know, do something with all of the, the growth and, and learning and experience that, you know, I was able to, to get in my four years for, you know, four and a half years at IMG Academy.
Speaker A:And I won't say that I plateaued as a professional or as a coach, but change of scenery and a bigger role with more autonomy and back in my, you know, in my backyard, my home state was just too attractive to say no to.
Speaker A:And I got to spend some time around the community, around the holidays in parallel.
Speaker A:So I, I knew that it was a good, a potentially great fit.
Speaker A:But parallel with that, you know, my wife and I had our, our first child and the, you know, the gravity towards, you know, the in laws and being around more family support.
Speaker A:And then, you know, my, my wife landed a job first in Boston.
Speaker A:So I think the, you know, the job search certainly got accelerated because of, of family for sure.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker B:Congratulations.
Speaker B:That's, that's, that's fantastic.
Speaker B:There's, there's no more positive life altering event in your, in your life than, than having a kid.
Speaker B:So congratulations to you and your wife on that one.
Speaker A:And she, her name's June Cecilia Pope bike and the, the middle name is a basketball reference.
Speaker A:St. Cecilia's Gym in Detroit, you know, has a great deal of tradition.
Speaker A:So I snuck, I snuck that one in there and.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker A:She's already getting a lot of time in the gym, so.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's been fun.
Speaker A:Thank You.
Speaker B:Did your wife know what she was getting into when she married a coach?
Speaker A:Well, yes and no.
Speaker A:Yes and no.
Speaker A:When we first started dating, I was with Milan Brown at Holy Cross.
Speaker A:And, you know, Milan's the type of guy that, you know, makes even a harder work, a hard worker, feel lazy.
Speaker A:So the time and energy that went into it was second to none.
Speaker A:So that first year, you know, it was like we were already the deep end.
Speaker A:So she knew what she was getting herself into.
Speaker A:And Coach Brown was great.
Speaker A:He would, you know, before the season would start, you know, we would take all the significant others out to dinner and it was kind of like, all right, you know, thank you for letting your, you know, your significant other.
Speaker A:Like, he's about to go, you know, into the war, and we'll see you in six months.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I, you know, it's a challenge, as you know, it's a challenging field for family and friends and, you know, you feel misunderstood at times.
Speaker A:But I, you know, what she said and I, I've.
Speaker A:It stuck with me is I, you know, I wouldn't be who I am without, you know, that commitment to coaching.
Speaker A:So we take the good, but the bad.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Makes sense.
Speaker B:What are you most excited about?
Speaker B:The new job?
Speaker B:What right now has you energized going into the summer, heading into the fall, and kids getting on campus?
Speaker A:I would say that we're kind of flying under the radar as a program in knapsack.
Speaker A:And that excites me because I think that we've been able to talent acquisition has gone well.
Speaker A:We have a good roster and we have guys that I think are going to get better together.
Speaker A:So I think what has got me fired up early is I think we're going to surprise a lot of people right out of the gate.
Speaker A:And the other dynamic, Mike, that really excites me is, you know, looking at the schedule, you know, there's still a little bit of work to finishing the schedule.
Speaker A:You know, play college type of schedule, you know, almost 40 games, is the coaches in our league can really coach the game of basketball, and they are.
Speaker A:And there's a lot of continuity in the conference.
Speaker A:Guys have been in these jobs for 20, 30 years.
Speaker A:So what really fires me up is, you know, playing these programs twice, sometimes three times in conference tournament.
Speaker A:I didn't get a ton of that in Florida, and it's not a knock on Florida coaching.
Speaker A:It was just kind of the way the schedules were engineered.
Speaker A:You didn't get.
Speaker A:You didn't get everybody on a second go around third time.
Speaker A:So I Think combination of me being sincerely excited about the.
Speaker A:The talent on our roster, the potential, and then, you know, going up against guys who I've known for, you know, a long, long time, who I know, who can really coach.
Speaker A:So I'm fired up from the talent.
Speaker B:Acquisition standpoint for coaches out there, maybe who are coaching high school and maybe they're not from the Northeast and they're not as familiar with the prep school, the way that prep schools operate.
Speaker B:Tell us a little bit about the recruiting process and how you get guys in the door at a prep school.
Speaker B:What does that look like, especially for you as a new coach coming in.
Speaker B:What's this summer been like trying to get players?
Speaker B:And what's your process look like?
Speaker A:Well, I think every prep school coach is different, every program is different, and their admissions processes are, you know, unique to, you know, that institution.
Speaker A:So I can't speak for, you know, everybody else, but I think what the way I've kind of approached it this off season is, you know, being a lighthouse where I'm trying to see everybody and also be seen and then, you know, getting to, you know, the eybl, you know, UAA and camp events and networking.
Speaker A:But I'll also admit that, like, the, you know, the most fruitful leads and recruiting, you know, are they stem from, you know, existing relationships.
Speaker A:And, you know, the basketball relationships that I've been able to cultivate over the last 20 years are, are serving me right now.
Speaker A:And it's really cool to, you know, to keep in touch with people out, you know, or get back in touch with people I haven't talked to in some cases in over a decade.
Speaker A:And they're like, yo, like, you know, the six, seven, you know, shot maker who was on the radar and, you know, I coached him two years ago.
Speaker A:What do you think?
Speaker A:You know, basketball, like, coaching is a fraternity.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think the recruiting has been kind of, you know, the fruits of my labor and the labor of networking for a long, long time in coaching.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It goes back to, you know, connections.
Speaker B:Yeah, those relationships are key.
Speaker B:And I know you asked me before we even jumped on the podcast about kind of how the podcast started and went through sort of the history of it.
Speaker B:And the one thing I guess I left out is the thing that surprised me the most about the podcast is the relationships that I've been able to build through this thing.
Speaker B:It's kind of crazy to me that a one hour interview with somebody has turned into a friendship of guys have flown into Cleveland Or I've gone into cities where guys are at, and you have dinner with somebody or they come and visit you, and it just.
Speaker B:It's amazing to me what, how small the basketball world really is.
Speaker B:And I think your point of somebody you haven't talked to for 10 years, that you cultivated a relationship with it at some point, it's kind of like that high school friend that you cannot talk to him for a year, and you pick up the phone and it's like you.
Speaker B:It's like you were still back in high school.
Speaker B:And the friendship feels exactly the same.
Speaker B:And I think in so many ways, the basketball world and the coaching fraternity is very similar to that.
Speaker B:And you build those relationships and they stay, stay strong through, through time and distance.
Speaker B:And again, you never know when you're going to reconnect with somebody because the basketball world is, Is so small.
Speaker B:I want to ask you one final two part question, Alex, before we get out.
Speaker B:So, part one, when you look ahead over the next year or two, and obviously for you, you're taking a new position, what do you see as being your biggest challenge?
Speaker B:And then the second part of the question, when you think about what you get to do each and every day, what brings you the most joy?
Speaker B:So your biggest challenge first, and then your biggest joy second?
Speaker A:I think it's the same answer, Mike.
Speaker A:And it's helping the young people, you know, reach their potential.
Speaker A:And that, to me requires, you know, a relentless amount of.
Speaker A:Of energy and commitment and reaching their potential, you know, is, you know, there's a lot of layers to it.
Speaker A:It's on, off the court, it's them developing as, as young men.
Speaker A:It's college placement.
Speaker A:You know, it's the roles with the group.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I think the, you know, the consistent pursuit of helping young people try to reach their ceiling would be the biggest challenge.
Speaker A:And it also turns into, you know, the greatest joy.
Speaker A:You know, it gives me a ton of fulfillment.
Speaker A:It's definitely my, My purpose, my professional purpose, you know.
Speaker A:And yeah, it's a great question because I think that, you know, it's the same thing.
Speaker B:It's a great answer.
Speaker B:And I don't know if I've ever had every interview I've done.
Speaker B:I don't know if I've ever, ever had anybody say that the two things are exactly the same.
Speaker B:I think I've had people say that the two are related, but I don't know if anybody has ever said that the challenge and the joy are the same two things.
Speaker B:So you broke.
Speaker B:I think you broke new ground I might have to go back and do some transcript reading to just, just to verify for sure.
Speaker B:But no, Great, great answer.
Speaker B:I think it speaks to the.
Speaker A:Yeah, I tell all the players that I coach pretty consistently.
Speaker A:Like, you know, I'm a pretty corny guy, you know, and I'm like I'm 40 now and I'm a dad so I can get away with it.
Speaker A:When I was like in my 20s, like probably painful for, for the young guys.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think that part of me, you know, having that unique answer, I think byproduct of my, you know, my corny personality.
Speaker A:But, you know, gotta be who you are.
Speaker B:You gotta be who you are.
Speaker B:You gotta coach, you gotta coach who you are.
Speaker B:There's no doubt about that.
Speaker B:All right, last thing before we wrap up.
Speaker B:I want to give you a chance to share how can people connect with you, reach out to you, find out more about what you're doing.
Speaker B:So you want to share social media, email, website, whatever you feel comfortable with.
Speaker B:And then after you do that, I'll jump back in and wrap things up.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm all in on, you know, any and all networking.
Speaker A:I'm, I'm at coach Alex Pope on X, but it's, you know, it looks like pop, so it's a L E X P O P P. And then on Instagram I just changed my handle to team Alex Pope.
Speaker A: mobile number out, you know,: Speaker A:And hopefully you're calling me to recommend a player or, or you're interested in recruiting, you know, a 69 shot maker from Seattle or a 68 playmaker from Chicago.
Speaker A:Because we got, we got those guys, you know.
Speaker B:Nice, nice.
Speaker B:There you go.
Speaker B:Well, we'll get all that in the show.
Speaker B:Notes.
Speaker B:Alex, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule to join us.
Speaker B:A big thanks to Corey Heights from Prep Athletics for connecting the two of us.
Speaker B:Shout out to Corey.
Speaker B:But again, Alex, thank you for your time tonight.
Speaker B:Truly appreciate it.
Speaker B:And to everyone out there, thanks for listening and we will catch you on our next episode.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker B:Your first impression is everything when applying for a new coaching job.
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Speaker B:As a Hoop Headspod listener, you can get your coaching portfolio Guide for just $25.
Speaker B:Visit coachingportfolioguide.com hoopheds to learn.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening to the Hoop Heads Podcast presented by Head Start Basketball.
