In this week’s episode I am joined by Bobby Palmer to talk about his brilliant new novel, Main Characters which is out today (link below). I’ve read almost 50 books so far this year and Main Characters is one of my favourites. It is so clever and fresh and just a brilliant read. Do make sure you grab a copy.

In this episode you will find a lot of books, I feel your TBRs might be about to grow because Bobby has plenty of recommendations.

Bobby’s Book Choices:

• Beyond the Deepwoods by Chris Riddell and Paul Stewart
• Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë
• Mrs Dalloway by Virginia Woolf
• Less by Andrew Sean Greer
• The High Mountains of Portugal by Yann Martel

Books by Bobby Palmer

• Main Characters
• Small Hours
• Isaac and the Egg

Other books mentioned

• Jacob's Room by Virginia Woolf
• Call Me By Your Name by Andre Acimen
• The Making of Another Major Motion Picture Masterpiece by Tom Hanks
• One Day by David Nicholls
• Normal People by Sally Rooney
• Say Her Name by Francisco Goldman
• Life of Pi by Yann Martel
• The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky
• The Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner
• The Overstory by Richard Powers
• The End of the Affair by Graham Greene

If you loved listening to this episode, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review Best Book Forward on your favourite podcast app, and don’t forget to tell your book-loving friends. It really helps new listeners discover our cozy reading community and helps us grow

See you next Tuesday for our next teaser episode which will be followed with the main episode on Thursday.

🎧 Listen & Subscribe Now: : Best Book Forward Podcast

📲 Connect with Us:

• Follow Helen on Instagram: @bestbookforward
• Discover more book recommendations on our Website: https://bestbookforward.org

Welcome back to Best Foot Forward.

I'm your host, Helen, and this is the podcast where I chat to authors about the books that have shaped their lives.

You can think of it as like your bookish version of Desert Island Discs.

Joining me today is Bobby Palmer to talk about his brilliant new novel, Main Characters, which is out today.

And this is one you're definitely going to want to have on your summer reading list.

Bobby is an author and journalist whose writing has appeared in publications including gq, Esquire, and Men's Health.

He's also co hosted the much loved literary podcast Book Chat alongside Pandora Sykes.

In a nutshell, Main Characters is a love story told by everyone except the main characters themselves.

It is highly original, clever, funny, heartfelt, and at times completely heartbreaking.

I absolutely loved it and I cannot wait to chat to Bobbi about it.

So let's not waste any more time.

Let's give Bobbi a warm welcome to the show.

Bobbi, hi.

Welcome.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thanks for having me.

I was just saying to you, I'm so excited to chat to you about your new book, Main Characters.

So we're recording this at the end of May and this is coming out on publication day, so hopefully by the end of this episode, everyone will be rushing out to get it because it is so brilliant.

You have to.

Do you want to start off by telling everyone a little bit about what it's all about?

Yeah.

So Main Characters kind of does what it says on the tin, or I guess it does the opposite of what it says on the tin because it's a.

It's a big love story told by everyone but the main characters.

So.

So it follows Seb and Clara, who are respectively, an aspiring actor and an aspiring director.

So that might be their friends and family members, it might be their exes and enemies, and it might be the barista on their first date or the.

The bartender on their last.

It's such a clever idea.

We're going to talk more about the sort of format of it as well.

I am desperate to know where this all came from.

What was the spark?

Was it the format first or was it one of the characters?

Was it a love story?

What.

What came first?

Where did it all come from this one.

I think every time I write a book, some.

A different element of it will come first.

This was format first, definitely.

I mean, when Isaac and the Egg.

My first book was the characters.

Like I just knew who they those two were straight away.

And I kind of built the book around that with this I knew.

I think it's interesting going into writing a third book, you know, that you want to write something that will kind of deliver on the first two books.

But also I think when you.

When you write your third, it's an opportunity to break away.

My first two were very much in the kind of magical, realist space.

And I knew this time I wanted to try and write something in the real world.

But because I like to try and do something a bit different, I knew that it would then have to be told in an interesting way.

The points of difference would be the way it was told.

And I knew I wanted to write a love story.

I'm a huge David Nichols fan, and I wanted to try and write something in the vein of One Day.

And around the time I was, you know, finishing my last book and starting to think about what I was going to write next, I read Jacob's Room by Virginia Woolf.

And I'm sure we'll talk about Virginia Woolf later because she's my favorite author of all time and I can never stop talking about her.

But I'd never read Jacob's Room.

And it's her first experimental novel, so it's not as well known as her others, but it's quite short.

And it's basically just a series of vignettes about a character called Jacob.

But you never go inside his head.

So it's just a few people in his life filling in different bits of his character.

And the point of it is that it's a story about the kind of futility of the First World War and the amount of young promising men who are lost.

But, you know, he's this kind of void at the center because you all the other people just kind of talk around him, but you never go inside his head.

And I remember reading it just being like, I should do this as a romance.

And the void at the center would be the central couple.

And that it could be a story about how we.

How we perceive each other, but also how we present ourselves to the person we love, but then also to the rest of the world.

And as soon as I had that idea, it was just one of those concepts where, you know, it's one sentence and I just knew that I could run with it.

And I.

It was the difficulty actually ended up being knowing where to stop.

Oh really?

Well, the different points of view.

Yeah, well, I think the final.

So I had to set myself some rules when I started writing it.

And I knew I didn't want to go back into the same point of view twice because I felt if you, if you were returning to points of view close to the, to the two main characters, if you were returning to their friends and their family, it would kind of be no different to any other novel with multiple points of view.

So I knew I wanted it to have this feeling of like every chapter was someone glancing against them at that point point in their life.

So, you know, if you heard from his best friend, you'd only hear from his best friend maybe when they're in their 40s.

And if you heard from her sister, it would only be at this point like juncture where 30 ish.

So because of that I knew every chapter would be a different character.

And there are 82 in the finished book, but in my first proper draft, so probably it was probably actually my second, like my, the first completed version of the book, there are 125.

And it was.

Yeah, I have a lot of respect for my, my first readers for kind of plowing through some of the ones that maybe didn't need to be there.

So I'm guessing then hearing you talk about that, because I would think once you have that idea, it would be very daunting to like, you know, where it sounds like you just were excited.

So once it came in, did you just feel like, did it start sort.

Of rush through to you writing a book?

You know, starting a book is daunting, but it's also, it's the fun of it.

And I think any, like a lot of writers would say the same.

It's, it's like a big puzzle that you have to, you have to put together.

And you know, starting a first draft of a book is, is like opening a jigsaw box and having all the pieces jumbled up and being like, okay, like, where are the corners?

Where are the sides?

And then, you know, I guess maybe the, the tricky kind of three quarter mark is when you, when you've done all these bits and you get to the sky and you're like, oh God, I shouldn't have left this to last.

But I, you know, it was, it, it was daunting.

It was mainly just a lot of fun, like loads of fun to write.

And I think the only daunting thing really was not knowing until People started reading it if.

If that gambit would have worked, because you're asking quite a lot of the reader to connect with two characters when they're never hearing from them.

And I genuinely.

Cause I'm writing it, I know what is going on in seven Clara's heads because I made them up.

So it really wasn't until people started reading it that I would know if I'd wasted two years of my life.

And then people would just be like, you know what?

Just write it from Sevn Clara's point of view.

But luckily it seems to have worked.

So I think it's worked incredibly well.

Like, it's.

So you really feel like you know them so well, and it's so interesting.

I was just thinking when you were saying about that, about the jigsaw for this, it's probably like a jigsaw, you don't have a picture to refer to because you're so open on, like, what you were doing.

So let's talk a little bit about Clara and Seb.

So this couple who have this, well, no path to true love runs smoothly, does it?

And particularly not for these two.

Do you want to tell us a little bit about them, how they meet, and sort of.

We'll keep it spoiler free, but, you know, just tell everyone a little bit about who they are, where they go.

Yeah.

So, Seb, I knew I wanted to write about two creative people and for them to be meeting at a really important juncture in their lives, but I wanted them to be very different to one another in the way they approach their kind of chosen path.

So I think Clara was the clearest character to me right from the offset, and I just knew who she was.

And she is a very kind of singular and spiky almost artist, basically.

She said she wants to be a film director.

She.

She loves movies, she loves creating.

And I think she just has a very clear vision of what her life is going to be like.

And it's going to be a big and important life that's going to be full of inspiration and full of, you know, creating.

And she meets Seb, and Seb is almost the flip side of her because he's fallen into, you know, he used to be in a band, he's fallen into modeling, he's fallen into acting.

And he doesn't really know what he wants to do.

He just wants to have a life that fulfills him.

And I think he cares more about family and friends and the smaller things.

So I think they're an interesting couple to throw together.

And I think as their life progresses and as they, Clara starts to realize some of those dreams and they're maybe not exactly what she pictured.

I liked the idea that you would meet them as these wide eyed 20 somethings and then you'd still be with them in their 40s and their, that you'd follow their worldview how, how their, how the way they see themselves and the way that other people see them and the way that their priorities and their dreams and stuff would shift and that you'd be following along the way.

But you'd kind of have to glean that from the people around them.

You know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, they wouldn't be telling you, they wouldn't be holding your hand and telling you the whole time, here's what I think, here's how I've changed, here's how I'm still the same and how I always will be.

I wanted you to be able to work that out for yourself.

And that was kind of the fun of it.

Do you know I love listening to you saying that then about Clara.

I love hearing authors talk about their characters.

So when you said that, you know, she came and she sort of knew that's who she is.

And it's sort of interesting that as a reader I felt like, you know, she was certainly the more sort of confident and self assured of the two.

So it's really interesting that's how she was in your mind.

And I just, I love them.

You say they're such an interesting couple to put together.

You know, when they work, they work brilliantly, but obviously they have their sort of challenges as well.

The fun of it was I didn't want them to have, I didn't want them to have an easy love story and I wanted them to be quite annoying at times.

You know, people, there are people who read the book and they're like, I can't.

I, I didn't like it because I hated both of them and I hated what they did.

And I, you know, I, I couldn't forgive him for this and I couldn't forgive her for that.

And I'm like, but that's the point.

And I think I want you to get to the end of the story and feel like they've earned, you know, certain things, whether there's a happy ending or not.

That's not for me to say, but I want, I wanted you to go on a journey with them.

And I also, I don't think I've realized that I was doing this when I was writing it.

Because a lot of the time you, you have to write the book to kind of realize what you're writing about.

But what a lot of people have found in it, and what I'm really glad that it seems to have become is it's, it's almost two love stories in one, because you have seven Clara's big love story, but then you have this parallel love story of two characters called Maisie and the Mesh.

And that's basically, basically Seb's best friend and Clara's best friend.

And they have a very.

Their love story kind of runs parallel to the main one, but it's very quiet and it's uncomplicated and there isn't much drama in it.

And what I like about that is it's.

This sounds harsh to say, but once again, I made them up.

So I'm allowed to, I'm allowed to say about them their love story is too boring for.

To be the main story of a book, you know, because.

Because it's just they meet and they fall in love and they have a nice life and I wanted you to feel them there and then to be like.

But there are also messy, complicated love stories like 7 Clara's.

And that, that's.

The spotlight is on 7 Clara.

But it doesn't take away from Maisie and the Mesh.

And there are other love stories within the book as well.

And I think there's.

There's a line towards the end which I think kind of sums up what I was trying to do with the whole book, which is where Maisie, I think Maisie's talking to Seb and she says, you know, our love is quiet, but yours is too loud to ignore.

And I think I liked the idea that if this was going to be a story set within the film industry, told from the point of view of the kind of audience, the people looking on, then that love story that they're looking at would have to be an eye catching one.

It would have to be the kind of thing that you'd see in public and you'd be like, glad I'm not there.

It is so interesting you're saying that about the reader sort of reaction to it, because there are things, you know, neither of them are saints, they both have their moments as well.

But it is that sort of thing when you're saying about people saying they can't forgive them.

I think from looking at the different point of views, if kind of like almost like a group chat, because we're seeing it so everyone's got like an opinion because it's not them telling their story directly.

Whereas you wouldn't say, I think you're wrong because you can see, like, you know what's going on from so many different angles.

You do feel like you have a bit more right to an opinion on them as well.

And that was my hope, was always that you.

Because I wanted there to be characters who didn't like Seb or didn't like Clara, and then characters who loved them.

And my hope was that you'd form a composite image of them as you go along, so you never need to go inside their heads because, you know, by the time you've heard 82 different versions of a person, you can probably build a more.

A more truthful image of what they're like than.

Than what they would tell you they're like.

And I think.

I think probably the truest version of a person is.

Is the way they are seen, not the way they want to be seen.

Yeah, yeah.

So let's talk about these points of view.

I think for me, I don't know what this is about me, probably I'm very nosy.

I love watching people, like, I love looking at people in public and sort of trying to work out who they are, what's going relationship.

So with main characters, I felt like I was sort of then a step back from that, and I was watching the people, watching the people, which was really interesting.

And I sort of thinking about their roles as, you know, an actor and a director and sort of, you know, all the world as a stage of this thing.

And I just wondered, you know, how it was for you to sort of create this world of people watching them watching it.

Did it feel like a little bit like you were directing a play?

And I had to be.

I had to become a really good people watcher to, you know, to work out who, you know, who are these.

Who are these people that are watching the people?

I think what was funny is what I thought the book would be was a kind of loosely connected series of short, short stories and that you go inside these people's lives a lot and that 7 Clara would kind of dip in and out.

But what I found when people started reading it was because you're already asking people to take a step back from 7 Clara.

They had to remain really constant or you just lose interest in the book because they are the thread that holds the whole thing together.

So it then became the art, became, how much of these people do you see?

How much of their lives do you get?

And that was.

That was the fun of It.

And who are the most interesting people to tell this story?

I think what's interesting is I didn't know it was a book about people making films and about the film industry until I'd already written an entire version of it.

And I think Clara was like an artist or maybe a. Yeah, she was some kind of like vague visual artist.

And Seb, I think Seb worked in advertising in the first draft.

And then I just.

It became, you know, the question was, this is an interesting way to tell the story, but why, you know, why tell the story in this way other than a gimmick?

And that was when the idea of the audience came in and the idea of the performative way that they both live their lives because of their chosen career.

And that really felt like when the book gained its heart, you know, when it gained itself, its reason for being, and it all clicked into place, especially the kind of run of chapters towards the end I feel like they had.

And I often find that with bits because I actually found it with my first one as well.

There's a twist in Isaac and the Egg that didn't rear its head until I was over.

I'd finished the first draft and I was rewriting the book.

And I think quite often it's that classic thing of you having to tell yourself the story before you.

You realize what the story is.

And then.

And then the key is.

Or the kind of trick is writing it like you knew what you were doing all along.

And I think it's why you get to.

You probably as an author, get to seem like you're much smarter than you are because you go, oh, yeah, I was always.

That was always the intention, but really it's just kind of fumbling around in the dark until you find something.

But yeah, I think I love films.

I think I was right with a kind of cinematic eye.

Anyone who's read Ice in the Egg will know that that's.

That's a book that's hugely inspired by.

By movies.

I've started screenwriting now and I absolutely love it.

And I think, I think definitely my kind of behind the scenes dalliances with the film industry over the last couple of years.

I've had a lot of conversations with film people and got really into that world and it made it a lot easier to write about and a lot of fun to write about, kind of.

I think people love reading about films as well.

I do.

I. I love, you know, I love Taylor Jenkins Reid and I love.

There was a book.

What was that book?

There's a Book I read a couple of years ago that I. Diary of a film by Niven Govinden.

That is an amazing book.

And it's.

It's kind of.

It's like a fictionalized call me by your name, but.

But told from the point of view of the director of a fictionalized call me by your name.

It's great.

And I read Tom Hanks's novel as well.

So I read.

I tried to read a lot of novels about making films while I was writing this book mainly.

So I got all the terminology right and stuff, but every time, you know, being able to.

And I love films about making films as well.

And I think there's something deliciously meta about.

About writing about that world.

And I really loved it.

And it's why I think some of my favorite, definitely my favorite chapters to write were the unashamedly film world ones.

So there's two in particular that I loved writing and one is the film set that's kind of told like an oral history by all the cast and crew.

That was so you can imagine.

That was so fun.

So it's tricky, but fun.

And then the point of view from the chapter, from the point of view of Clara's ex, Jacob, who by that point is an immensely famous actor.

He's such a bad person.

And there's just so much fun in writing.

You know, I think when you have 82 point of view characters, it gives you the leniency to write a couple of them as the worst people in the world.

And I think in particular Jacob and then Seven, Clara's neighbor Cam, were just two really fun assholes to write, basically, you need the.

Do you know what I'm just thinking as you were talking there about the book?

It's like.

It's like not only do you have the different points of view, you have that sort of different pacing and format as well as you're saying, like, you know the.

So I mean, I. I just said to you when I was reading, I kept on sitting to my husband, this is an amazing book.

This is such a great book.

It's all the way through.

But I think it's so clever how you sort of.

And you said about being gimmicky.

It's not at all gimmicky.

It's so clever, like in how connected you are to the characters throughout.

I just thought it was brilliant.

Like, I love it.

So you were talking about screenwriting.

Then I thought about this for main characters and I was like, I don't know.

I'm not at all creative.

Like that.

Could it be made into a movie?

Could you see how they could do.

I mean, It'd be really 82 characters, obviously.

You know, I think nowadays when you write a book, it has to be part of the conversation because the.

Definitely the modern.

The world of film and TV and streaming, they are.

There's this kind of relentless appetite for stuff based on books.

So it's a natural part of the conversation whenever you publish a book is what about the film rights?

I think it would have to be done right is the key for me.

I think this is very much a book that exists in the way it exists.

Because it's a book.

Yeah.

And you'd have to find a way of making it on film that does its own thing.

But.

But isn't just as straightforward.

I, the.

My.

My worst fear is that you'd make it and it would be like a straightforward rom com between Sev and Clara.

Yeah.

There'd be no kind of creativity in the concept.

And that's what I don't want to do because that's what I didn't do with the book.

And I just think films are their own thing and books are their own thing.

And I would love to see this as a film or as a TV show, but it would have to do something invented.

I'd have to really believe in it.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think on its own, as a reading experience, it's like it's going to be one that stays with you, one that people will talk about.

I think book club should read this one together because it'd be so interesting, sort of chat to people as you're going through.

Actually, buddy, reading it as you're going, sort of like, you know, sort of understand the characters as you go.

So without giving too much away, there are obviously moments in Se and Clara's life where they have grief, they have some big moments.

There's also a lot of joy.

You know, they actually have some really happy times together as well.

And it made me think of that sort of thing when people say there are sort of three versions of the truth, yours, mine, and then what actually happened, which, you know, what we're seeing as well.

And I just would love to know a bit more about, you know, how you approach that sort of, you know, from people, because I guess it was quite challenging then, probably freeing as well, to sort of be able to sort of open up and be able to tell their story from other angles.

But how was that for you to be able to sort of tell what's really happening in a Couple.

It's.

It was interesting and I think it's something where you.

I like what you said about book clubs reading it because I think it's.

The thing that will be possibly polarizing about it is like, I wanted you to.

Depending on who you're hearing from.

And it's not.

It's actually, it's not just the opinion of who you're hearing from.

You dip in and out of their story at such specific points that you can only ever get little bits of it.

And that there's one very specific big thing that happens between seven Clara towards the end of part one, which is.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't think it's too much of a sport to say it's their undoing, because I think no one wants to read.

If the couple get together at the start of the book, you're probably not expecting that they're going to stay together for the whole time.

But there, you know, there are elements of it where I wanted you to believe one thing and then find out something else to be true later on.

Because I think that each, like seven Clara are coming at it from.

Coming at their relationship from their own angles and with their own wants and their own desires and their own fears.

So I think the use of the.

The truth and blame and things like that would be really important and that you as a reader would have preconceptions because you're only hearing one conversation or you're only hearing one side of a conversation would be really important to what then unfolds and to maybe later on them finding a way to be together that.

That is open and honest and where they can both live in the way they want to live, basically.

But it was hard, you know, it's hard to.

It's hard to balance likability, I find.

I. I found, like, if couples, if.

If in a couple, if.

If they are going to disappoint each other and.

And betray each other, it.

It became a real challenge of, like, well, how far.

How far can one of them go?

And then how far does the other one need to go for you to genuinely still at least part of you believe?

I want them to be together.

I think they're right for each other.

Because, you know, there will be some people who go like, these two really should not be together.

But I wanted you to believe that even when they were being selfish or blinkered, that they really did love the other person at the heart of it all.

And I think that was kind of the key thing.

Yeah.

And I think because also you see them for such a long period of time as well.

As you say, they're quite young when they meet, so you can see them sort of growing up and sort of learning to be around other people and things.

But I wouldn't want to read a book where, you know, there aren't sort of the flaws, like.

No.

I mean, I love their best friend relationship as well.

I think, you know, that was really nice to sort of see that.

It's the sort of calming.

But as you say, it's not a book, is it?

I think.

I think when you read, I feel like the 2 benchmark kind of romance, like literary romances that everyone always talks about are One Day normal people.

Yeah.

And what makes One Day normal people work so well is the central couple are not really a couple.

Yeah.

For any of the book.

So really in this.

Seb and Clara together for longer than Dex and M or Connell and Marianne.

But I think it gets.

It'll get boring if you're just.

If, you know, if they're like, who's going to take the bin out, who's going to walk the dog?

You know, everyday life, pick up some.

Dishwasher tabs from the shop.

That's not.

People don't want to read about that stuff.

People live that stuff.

And it's great, you know, it's really nice to be in a, you know, in a happy, uncomplicated marriage, but it doesn't make for great reading.

Yeah.

That's so interesting, you say about one day, because we know.

I love One day as well.

It's one of my favorites.

But reading it now, sort of years later, when I'm older, it's so funny how you read the characters differently because I think at the time I thought it was impossibly romantic.

You know, I was like, oh, said get together.

And now I'm like, really, girl?

So be interested to read this later.

You know, you've grown up where you.

You read decks and you go like, oh, you.

Totally.

And I think, I hope my daughter never ends up with somebody like him.

I still feel like the.

The absolute emotional crux of that novel is the scene where he goes to see his mom and he calls her from the trains.

And it's just.

It's so affecting and I think it's just a mark of what a great writer David Nicholls is.

So there's so much life in main characters.

You know, obviously we're seeing from Seb and Clara, from their best friends, but also from the characters who are around and sort of sharing what they see.

And some of them, like, I keep coming back to the lady on the flight who sort of sees them when they're going on holiday and you sort of see a little bit of her.

And I sort of come back to that character a little bit, and sort of.

She stayed.

And I just wondered, you know, you said you had, like, so many more before, but were there any that you thought you'd like to sort of go back and sort of revisit their life a little bit more, or are they all done and dusted for you?

Clara's brother Augie is a very, very minor part, and he is one of the characters that had a much bigger story in the earlier versions and that he kind of fell victim to cuts because he had to, because it's not his book.

But I've.

I've often thought, oh, if I was to revisit this world, I'd like to tell Augie's love story, which.

Which was in there, and it was actually a love story.

But, you know, I mean, you can probably imagine you're reading the book, there's not time.

There isn't time for another love story.

So they had to go.

And I've thought, you know, well, if I wrote a sequel, maybe the sequel is about them.

Yeah.

The woman on.

The woman on the holiday on the flight, she was in it right from the beginning, and she was always a really, really strong voice to me.

I thought, it's so interesting with that, with the having those.

Because they're short chapters, a lot of them.

And when you think about the woman on the flight, how much you gave us from that little sort of perspective where we know almost a little bit of what's going on in her life.

I thought it was so clever how you did that.

Just.

It's about them.

But there's another character.

I don't really know, but I felt like I wanted sort of like, oh, where did you go?

It's a classic thing in writing as well, I think, where you.

You write loads and then the pairing it back make, you know, you pair it back to the absolute minimum it can be, and you end up feeling like there is more because.

Because it was there.

And then it got, you know, I think Nimesh's chapter, which comes later on.

So it was ready to talk about it.

Yeah, it was thousands and thousands and thousands of words before.

And then it.

Just.

Because I love him.

I love him.

He's such a nice guy.

But then it just, you know, it became a much shorter thing.

But I think you can Almost tell that there.

You can tell when a character has a life beyond the.

Beyond what's on the page, even if it's just within the author's mind.

I think when you.

When you have written loads about a character, but then you only leave so many words on the page, I think there's still a sense of that completeness kind of behind.

Behind the words.

But, yeah.

Nimesh.

Oh, my gosh.

We have to just talk about the emotion in this book because I went through sort of a real range of emotions reading it, and there are two parts.

Bobby.

I cannot even tell you how much I cried.

I know.

I know exactly.

I know exactly.

You know, the two parts.

Oh, my.

They are beautifully written and just really, really hit me.

You just said, you know, you have to put your characters through the wringer a little bit.

So when you're sitting at your desk, is there a temptation to be like, no, we're not going to do that.

Let's give you a nice life.

Is it quite, really quite hard for you?

Do you make yourself cry?

I think if it feels hard, it's.

It's good because it means that you've connected to the characters as a writer.

I think if you connect to the characters as a writer, the readers will probably connect to them as well because there's a kind of genuine feeling there.

Yeah, there are.

There are things where it is hard to write and where, you know, you're.

You know, you almost feel cruel because you know what you're doing.

It's not like emotional manipulation.

This isn't a little lie, but it's, you know, that you want readers to feel the whole breadth because a good book makes you feel a certain way about life itself.

And I think that means you want to feel the highest and lowest emotions.

You want to laugh and cry on alternating pages.

Right.

I felt worse about the second of those two things than the first because the first had to happen, whereas the second one was just me being mean.

But, you know, I think.

I think you can feel.

I'm sure it's difficult to talk about.

It's so hard.

I think if you really connect to a character, I.

How do I say this?

I think if you feel really sad about something happening, it doesn't lessen the kind of joy that came before it.

And I think it can almost compound how.

How the positive emotions before.

And that's easy for me to say when I'm the executioner, but it's funny, you know, I write, writing this book, I wrote Isaac and the Egg and Isaac and the Egg is, doesn't pull its punches.

It's quite brutal, unflinchingly sad book at times, and it always had to be because I knew when I was writing it.

It's a book about a man who has lost his wife and it was always that.

And I didn't want it to be a book about a man who's lost his wife and he's making a joke out of it.

And it's a black comedy.

I wanted it to feel real because the only way that book would feel, the only way that book would work is if it felt entirely genuine, apart from the two foot tall alien egg creature that ends up in this guy's living room.

Like, I wanted you to feel like this is real life and this thing is in it.

I think having written Isaac in the Egg, it does give me a bit of leeway because I almost, whatever I do in all my other books, it's like, well, it's not as sad as that.

It's not so.

But I also, you know, as a debut author writing Isaac in the Egg, I really, I was really worried about the reception to it because I was really worried that people would say, oh, it's, you know, it's, it's trauma porn, or it's more, more than that, you know, why is that your story to tell?

And my experience, the reception to the book was, was just the total opposite.

And I still get, you know, emails and messages from people saying, you know, I've, I've lived through this and it is like this and thank you for writing it, it helped.

And that, you know, that that really is the best, has been the best thing about being an author.

And it's, it's given me a bravery to feel like you can write anything as long as you do it from a place that doesn't feel cynical and doesn't feel manipulative, but feels true and tender and like it's trying to say something a bit more profound than just, you know, pure shock factor.

I was a mess when I read Isaac on the Egg.

I.

It was an absolute mess.

I mean, it was, it was brilliant.

I just think when you said that, it's like when you're saying it's not your story to tell.

I mean, I absolutely love Elif Shafak and I remember seeing her talk and she said she doesn't like the advice that people give writers and they say, write what you know.

Yeah.

She was like, right, what you're interested in, like the experience you're interested in.

I think that so like, you know, as you say, if you're coming at it from a place of wanting to tell the story and sort of, you know, share the sort of importance of it from a good place, I think that's.

I also think, you know, you can say, write what you know, but.

But I think the addendum would be if you don't know it, learn it.

Yeah.

You know, go out there and read and talk to people and inhabit this, the.

The world you want to write about so that you're not just doing it in a way where you go, oh, this might sell some books.

You're doing it in a way where you.

Where you say, what's the story I want to tell?

Why do I want to tell it?

And how can I tell it in a way that feels authentic?

Because when you're doing that, as you say, if you're getting people who are writing to you saying, I've lived that, that's what it's like.

It's helped me.

I mean, I just think there's such a.

So important that people have stories they can relate to and find comfort as well.

So I think.

And what's fiction for?

You know, it's to feel something.

If you don't, I think the worst thing you could do.

I'd rather someone feel angry or upset by one of my books than feel nothing at all.

Because I think.

I mean, hopefully they don't feel angry.

No.

Well, actually, there are two moments where they might feel angry, but.

Sorry, but you say, I just want to get back to those two scenes in main characters and how sad they are, but also the way that you've written them.

And it sounds weird to say because they are such big moments.

There's so much beauty in the way you wrote it, particularly in the second one.

Like, I was sort of crying, but comforted crying as well.

I felt sort of really sad that there was something in it that made me sort of feel comforted and sort of hopeful without spoilers.

And I think when I.

When I wrote Isaac and the Egg, I read a lot of grief memoir.

I read C.S.

Lewis and Joan Didion and an amazing book that I always recommend, called Them say Her Name by Francisco Goldman, about the author.

He lost his girlfriend in a freak accident and he kind of just started writing exactly everything he was feeling.

And I think what really struck me in all of those books was that they weren't books about death.

They were books about love.

They were books about the love these people had for and still had for.

For the people they'd Lost.

And I think that's something I always feel when I'm writing about.

When I'm writing about loss is you're writing.

You know, people only feel lost so intensely because.

Because they love the person they're losing.

And I think that.

I like to think those scenes we're talking about, they are.

They are scenes which are, you know, sad and filled with loss, but they're filled with love as well.

And that's, that's the.

That's what makes them work.

I. I hope so.

You know, I. I like all my favorite books make me cry.

I want to cry when I read a good book.

And I almost.

I feel like it's not been a good enough book if it hasn't made me cry.

And not just crying.

A kind of like, oh, you've made me cry way, but in a.

In a genuine kind of.

I'm trying to think of the.

What are the books that have made me Life of PI kind of way where you just really go, oh, this is what life is about.

And then you feel invigorated by it.

You know, it's like it's a cathartic experience.

So hopefully some people.

Yeah, hopefully that's.

That's the effect.

And not just kind of annoying, annoyed crying.

Yeah, crying.

Crying.

Because they were enjoying the book and then I ruined it.

You didn't ruin it.

It's absolutely perfect.

I absolutely loved it.

So you spoke earlier a little bit about, you know, the two.

Your two previous books and the sort of magical realism and, you know, with main characters, you've taken a new format.

So I love that you bring something so fresh and it makes me.

Which I know is so greedy.

We're talking about this before the books even come out, but it makes me excited to think about what you're going to do next.

Yeah.

Do you feel pressure now that you've done three sort of very different projects, or are you just like, you know,.

You've got big, well, immense pressure.

And you know what?

I actually feel even more pressure because Main Characters is my American debut.

It's my first book coming out in America.

So going into thinking about a fourth book, I've had to be like, okay, so it has to.

And it's always easy to say as a published author, but there's a lot of freedom to being before you get your book deal.

And I kind of.

Isaac and the Egg would be a really hard pitch now as a follow up to anything.

You know, it was a.

It was almost a book.

I had to.

I had to write in its entirety and be like, trust me, just read it.

Because it was so weird.

Now when I'm writing a book, I have to go, okay, well it has to take the ice and the egg small hours box.

And those books were quite similar.

You know, they're both journeys of self discovery with a, with a fantastical element.

And so it has to kind of deliver to the reader of those, but it also has to deliver to the reader of Main Characters which, you know, there are a lot of people who read Main Characters who really wouldn't vibe with Talking Eggs because it's, because it's a real world book.

So, you know, I, I, I'm very conscious of the fact that it has to follow up on all of those and that in America it has to be a book that makes sense as a follow up to my debut Main Characters.

And you know, there are a lot of authors who would just say, oh, well, I'm just going to write what I want to write.

But I think that's, there's a, there's a bit, it's quite obnoxious doing that because I think you, you're only where you are because of your reader and I think you can take risks and you can do, try and do new things.

And like, clearly that's what I want to do is I want to try and ideally break new ground each time, but I don't want to disappoint my readers.

I want my readers to be on that journey with me.

So I, for the first time in my life have had like writers like proper writer's block over coming up with a new idea.

And if you'd asked me that question a week ago, I would probably have sounded a bit more doom and gloom because it's been a year, literally a year since I finished my characters and I was just like, what am I going to write next?

And then last week I had the idea.

Oh no, exactly what I'm writing next.

Yeah.

And it's totally different to all of them.

It's exciting, it fits almost within, you know, I knew I didn't want to, I think with main characters I was obviously doing romance.

I knew I didn't want to become a romance author.

Not because I have anything against romance authors.

I love romance.

But I just know that I don't want to sit within a genre.

And I think people who've read my other books know that I like, I like ideally being a bit more experimental and maybe a bit more weird and surreal.

And I've, I've found an idea that feels you know, it's got that kind of love story sensibility within it.

The, hopefully, the epic sensibility of main characters, but a touch of the exuberance of Isaac and the Egg in Small Hours, but also while existing in an entirely different genre to any of them.

So I can't tell you anything more than that, though, because I haven't written a word yet, so I might have gone off it in a week.

I was gonna ask you then, because I've been watching.

I mean, I don't know you've never met, but I'm watching as you're talking about your books, and I often wonder, like, how do you know when you've come across an idea that's gonna work for you?

And I can see you sort of light up when you talk about things.

Is it.

You just get, like, an excitement.

You're like, so what's funny is I, you know, I obviously have an editor, my editor, Frankie, who I've worked with in the uk, A headline.

We've worked in all three of my books.

I now have an editor in the US as well, Gabby at Little Brown.

And I pitched them both, you know, I've pitched them several ideas that I was.

I didn't really believe in, but I was like, oh, well, maybe there's something in this, something in that.

And then I talked to them both about this new book idea, and they both said exactly the same thing independently of each other, which is like, I know this is the one because.

Because of how you're talking about it, you know, I could tell that you're excited and the other ideas you weren't excited by.

And I think there is.

There's this beautiful synergy in.

In being an author where you have to.

You have to know.

You have to trust your reader and you have to know your editor and you have to believe you.

There's this whole network of people behind you who.

Who are kind of counting on you to deliver that next book.

But then the other side of it is there's that idea where if all of them said, don't write that, you'd still want to write it.

And I think that's the key is it's that thing that lights the fire and.

And you know.

You know when you.

You know, when you have it because you just want to sit down and you want to start writing.

Yeah.

I think for you now, now that you've done sort of three such different books, I think you must have the trust of your readers.

Of, like, we're on the journey now.

Just, just, we'll take whatever.

It's kind of like, how much rope can they give me?

Right?

It's like how I hope they'll keep trusting me and I hope they'll.

I hope that they.

I mean, I definitely.

All my favorite authors, I want them to do something different.

I want to be surprised by what they do next.

I mentioned Life of PI before.

I love Yam Martel and I just read his new book and it's like the top half of all the pages is.

Is Greek poetry and like ancient Greek verse, and then the.

The bottom half is footnotes, but the story of the novel is told entirely in the footnotes at the bottom of the page.

And it's like, yeah, great, Yan.

I'm.

I'm on board.

And I think anyone who can do something like that, I, you know, I. I put my trust in an author like that simply because they are brave enough to do it.

And I wouldn't be brave enough to do that, but hopefully, hopefully I can be brave enough to do something a bit different.

I'm sure there are lots of authors who would say of your three books, they wouldn't be brave enough to try any of those as well or stupid enough.

No, no, they're brilliant.

And I mean, main characters is.

It's such a special read.

So anyone listening today, definitely go and grab a copy, get your tissues ready as well for those two scenes.

But you're gonna love it.

It's fantastic.

Okay, so we're going to chat about the first five books that you've picked.

Then how did you find choosing your five?

Was it easy for you, Bobby, or.

I felt like it was very, like you sort of very quickly came back like, these are these.

I think what I found difficult about choosing five books is I could choose five books that shaped my life and they would all be books I read as a teenager.

Or I could choose five books I shaped that shaped my life, and they'd all be books I studied at Unique.

But what I want, what I found a welcome challenge was I wanted to choose five that felt like they shaped my life in a different way at a different time.

So definitely the first.

I think the first three of the five are ones where you'd say.

Where I've probably said it in a million different interviews because it's, you know, my favorite book of all time.

I always go.

But then the other, the, the final two might be surprising choices.

But I think when I, when I tell you why it will, it will make sense.

Okay, I haven't read any of yours.

I know.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Wuthering Heights.

No, I'm terrible with the classics.

I'm the world's worst with the classics.

But I have.

You don't like classics as well?

It's not that it's not the best one to start with.

This is what.

I'm reading this at the moment, and I'm making a point of telling everybody that I'm reading it because it.

I feel like I should.

It's the Brothers.

Oh, God, look at the size of it.

It's the longest book I've ever read.

But has it got tiny text?

It's got.

It's got.

Yeah.

And there's like no paragraph breaks.

I felt like I had to.

I need to declare to as many people as possible, look, hey, look how smart and impressive I am.

I'm reading the words Karamazov.

So I'm like, look how unimpressive I am.

I haven't read any of these.

I have.

Probably less bored.

I have added one to my cart, though.

When your list came through that, I was like, oh, that sounds so.

Well, as we go, you can tell.

Me which one I will do.

Okay.

Do you want to tell us about your first choice then?

So my first.

But yes.

Well, I've actually got a copy of it right in front of me.

This is beyond the Deep woods by Paul Stewart and Chris Riddell.

And this.

What the.

This series was kind of my literary awakening.

It was like my Harry Potter.

I mean, I read Harry Potter as a kid, but this was.

There was something about these books.

And that something is really the illustrations that just opened up my mind as a child.

So they.

They're set in a fictional world called the Edge, and they're illustrated by Chris Riddler.

That's what the Edge looks like.

Wow.

Beautiful.

He has this style of illustration which is so intricate, intricate and beautiful.

And it.

They're just.

It's just like kind of throughout.

You can see.

I love that.

But I just.

I always thought I wanted to be an illustrator.

Anyone who's read Isaac and the Egg will.

Basically, everyone.

Everyone says that your first novel, the main character is.

Just.

Tends to be you.

Isaac in Isaac and the Egg is me.

Which is why it hurts when people are like, I found Isaac so annoying, but he's.

He's kind of a man child, but he.

He's an illustrator and he has a very kind of visual way of seeing the world.

And I.

That was always my.

My worldview when I was young was.

I was just draw.

All I did was draw.

I. I was Just.

I kind of made my own books.

But.

But they were.

They were comic books I was drawing all the time, and I, I.

When I was a teenager, I was still illustrating.

I was in a band.

I was doing.

Drawing all the flyers to get free gigs.

So I think reading a book where the.

The art and the illustration was so crucial to the world and to.

And to the way you saw that world meant it was just something for my imagination to really latch onto.

So I credit the Edge Chronicles with being the reason I love books.

And I became a writer, and I was lucky enough last year to meet Chris Riddell and to get that book signed, and it was like my.

My most fangirl moment ever.

I could barely speak because he's just been such a.

A kind of iconic Titanic figure in my life since I was.

Since I was a child.

And I.

He.

I think he really liked it because it's.

Obviously, it's.

It's a series that a lot of people did read, and I think, you know, I talk to other people and they do.

I love those books, but, you know, it's not one that has the kind of, you know, not everyone knows it, so it.

It's.

I think it's nice to.

It was.

It was nice for him to be like, oh, there are people who still.

Are still kind of going on about this 30 years later.

Did you put a copy of your book in his hands?

I told him about.

I did tell him about it.

Oh, did you know, I. I would have felt a bit.

Wow, he's so good.

He's so.

I can't.

I can't be like, take my book as well.

But we did have a chat about it, and I think he liked the sound of the.

The egg thing.

So maybe I'll get him to.

Maybe one day he'll illustrate a kid's version of Ice Skin the Egg or something.

Oh, my God, that'd be amazing, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, so should we see if you can convince me for the second one?

It's been picked twice before and I still haven't picked it up, so.

Do your best.

I was an emo as a teenager.

I had a kind of straight and fringe.

Listened to My Chemical Romance, studded belts, skinny jeans, all that kind of stuff.

So Wuthering Heights was like the Bible to me.

When I.

And I studied at school, I was probably 14 or 15, which, to be fair, we.

My.

I do a podcast.

I used to do a podcast called Book Chat with Pandora Sykes, and we did Wuthering Heights, and I Think we discussed this on there, because I said that the optimal time to read Wuthering Heights is when you're 15 or 16 years old.

Because when I went back and reread it for the podcast, it is incredibly overwrought.

And it's so dramatic.

And if you think.

And there is more than a little bit of Wuthering Heights in main characters with the.

The unreliable narrator and the kind of narrative within a narrative, but also in the fact that the two leads, you just want to bang their heads together and go, stop being so dramatic.

But there's.

There's.

I think what's beautiful about it is how unashamedly dramatic and overwrought and windswept it is.

And it just really.

It took my breath away and stole my heart as a teenage boy.

Like, you know, this is.

There are people who say it's not a love story.

I think it's a brilliant love story.

I don't think it's necessarily a healthy love story, but some of the best writing about love is in Wuthering Heights.

And that's kind of one side of it, but then the other side of it is it.

It's an incredibly inventive and modern feeling book in the way it tells the story, because it's told.

A traveler kind of comes to Wuthering Heights, and then.

So you're hearing from his point of view, but then the housekeeper Nelly starts telling him the story of Kathy and Heathcliff at Wuthering Heights.

So you actually have two separate levels of narrative kind of muddying the water.

So I think even then, when I was appreciating it as a big, dramatic love story, I think the gears were already turning in my mind of, you know, oh, this is what a book can do.

And it's just one of those ones.

I just read it at the right time, and it's always stuck with me.

And it's one of the few books that I. I do go back to and I do reread, and I would say this, and my next choice are the two books that I. I am always rereading.

So if it's 15 or 16, the peak time, I've well and truly missed the boat.

Then read it to read it to your daughter in a few years.

Yeah, maybe I'd be like.

And do not, do not choose a.

Man like Heathcliff, which she probably will see as, like, impossibly romantic as well, at that age.

So this has been picked before by Alexandra Potter and Jo Cannon, who's also on this series, picked it as well, okay, so your third book, which, again, I haven't read.

Sorry.

My third book is Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf.

And obviously I said, I've already talked about Virginia Woolf.

She's my favorite author of all time.

This is my favourite book of all time.

Um, I studied it in my first year of university.

And, you know, if Wuthering Heights kind of struck the match of what a book could do for me, this is the one that kind of lit the firework and exploded my head.

Because it's just, on the face of it, a very simple book about one day in the life of one woman who's essentially planning a.

Planning a party in the.

Yeah.

And it's just a remarkable feat of modernist fiction that goes in and out of the heads of.

I mean, I think main characters, like main characters owes a lot to Virginia Woolf in the idea of people glancing off other people and almost like throwing their mind into someone else.

And then you're with that person and then you're there and then you're there and then you're there.

And it just felt like reading something that encapsulated what living is like in a way that no book I'd ever read before had done.

And there's this amazing side plot to do with a character called Septimus Warren Smith, who is a veteran of the First World War and who's deeply shell shocked and is kind of coming to pieces because of that.

And.

And it just.

It's just so profound and it gives you that kind of feeling in your chest of like, oh, my goodness.

This is really.

I don't know, I think the best books and the best, you know, the best pieces of art, you can almost.

They're almost so good that you can't explain why they're so good.

It's just.

It's just perfect.

And I genuinely think it's a perfect novel.

And it's one that affected me so deeply when I first read it that I, you know, I've never.

It's never been knocked off the top spot since.

In the last 15, 16 years.

And I. I go back to it every few years and I read it again and I get something totally different out of it every time.

I love that when you go back to books and read them, something new comes out.

I've just always been intimidated.

Like, I'm really not good with, like, classics, and to me, that just sort of sits in like, oh, I'm not going to get it.

But when I looked it up before again, I was like, let me read about it.

And I was like, it sounds like everything that I would love.

So I did.

A couple of years ago, I sort of sat down to read Pride and Prejudice, and I was like, just don't think of it as school.

Just sit down and read it as a book and enjoy it.

There are certain authors who.

You read them and they.

They feel refreshingly modern, and Jane Austen's is one of those.

I think I remember reading Persuasion and feeling like it was just a mod, you know, a great modern love story.

Virginia Woolf.

It's funny, I.

She can be quite.

It can feel like a bit of a slog at times, but I think because it's so modernist and so, you know, it's kind of just a turn of the screw away from Ulysses.

And I. I am not ashamed to say that to the lighthouse I found impenetrable.

And I've tried to read it several times and just.

It felt like homework.

Yeah, exactly.

Like you said, it felt like homework.

Whereas Mrs. Dalloway, I think, because it's kind of.

It's conventional in ways and it's try.

It's doing something experimental with something fairly ordinary.

And Jacob's room does the same thing.

I would say those are a great entry point to Wolf.

Maybe I will then try at some point and see.

I mean, I do say to myself, now just try and like, it's okay to not finish a book.

That's the other thing.

Like, I have that sort of plow.

Through and I've got the Sound and the Fury by William Faulkner over there.

And I read the.

I read the first two pages and I just went, you know what?

Nah.

Yeah, yeah.

So people are so scared of.

Of feeling like, you know, saying it's not for me means you're.

You're.

Somehow, if you reject something from the canon that you're.

You're.

You look stupid.

And it's like, yeah, you know anyone.

Yeah, anyone who reads is smart, because you can read.

I think just set yourself a really low bar.

I'm reading a book.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I think people who are snobby about.

About reading, I hate them because it's kind of like, what would you rather people be doing?

Yeah, well, but the books you've mentioned, you've got such a different.

And you mentioned earlier, Taylor, Jenkins, Reid, and, you know, so you're obviously reading, like, so many different.

I try and read in every genre and I try and read.

I try and read so widely, and I genuinely.

I do not make A distinction between reading, you know, Virginia Woolf or reading Taylor Jenkins Reid.

Because they're all books.

And it's like, I think the only thing that matters when you're reading a book is, am I enjoying it?

Yeah.

And I don't think you have any obligation to enjoy a book.

Yeah.

Or feel like a book's more profound just because it was written 200 years ago.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Well, let's hear about book number four.

This one I've looked at many times I've been tempted to buy it, and I've never picked it up.

So.

So this is Less by Andrew Sean Greer.

It's a brilliant book about a man, an author, whose ex.

Boyfriend is getting married, and he gets an invite to the wedding.

And then he.

He kind of.

He's a.

He.

He takes up a lot of invitations to do a load of different literary events and stuff around the world.

Basically goes on this big road trip to.

To kind of avoid having to go to the wedding.

But it is so tender and sweet and really, really funny, but really, really profound.

And it has one of the best last lines in any book I've ever read.

It also has one of the best introductions, actually.

It opens in this really creative way where you're kind of.

It's talking to you directly, and it's saying, like, hey, look at him over there.

There he is.

Arthur Less.

He's sitting in the middle of the lobby and he's doing.

And I remember just feeling like the.

The voice was so confident and so unique that it just drew me in straight away.

It won the pull.

I think it won the Pulitzer Prize.

So it's, you know, it's not like.

It's not some kind of swept under the rug book.

It was.

It was really, really beloved.

But the reason I chose it is because I very, very clearly remember that it was the book I was reading when I decided I wanted to write a book myself.

And I think it was that humor and that confidence of tone that made me go like, I'd love to try this and not, you know, it.

I always feel a bit weird saying that because it makes it sound like I'm being like, well, I could do this.

I can win the pull it.

But it's.

It's not that.

It was just.

There was so.

There was such a sense of fun in it.

And I was already working as a writer, so this was then.

This was in my early 20s.

I was.

You know, I was working as a journalist in London, reading this book on the bus to and from work So I was already writing, but I think I'd always thought that books were, like, a stuffy thing.

Fiction was something done by people who were smarter than me, basically.

And I just had this sense of, like, well, I. I went my.

My work as a journalist.

I was in magazines.

I was writing kind of lifestyle journalism, doing a lot of experiential stuff, stuff where I try and make readers laugh.

And I just had this real feeling of like, well, maybe I could write a fun book or maybe I could.

I could, like, try and do something like this, which is a bit experimental, but a bit fun.

And you know what.

What's the worst that could happen?

It would be a fun experiment.

And I literally wrote the first page of my first book, and I never looked back because I just knew straight away it was what I was supposed to be doing.

So I think it came at the right time that I.

That I just thought, yeah, okay, this is.

This is something that I want to.

I want to really give a good go.

And I do.

I credit Less with kind of being the initial inspiration for that.

I love that.

I mean, I always say I think the right book finds you at the right time.

And I sort of mean it as, like, as a reader, but for you, how brilliant.

That started this incredible journey for you.

But that is them.

I'm gonna get that book because, as I say, I've looked at it so many times, and I think for me, again, this sort of shows my mindset.

When I see, like, Pulitzer Prize, I'm like, well, I won't get it.

But I keep picking it up.

It's so bad.

It's funny because it's not.

It's a surprising Pulitzer Prize winner.

It's a very.

Because I've read, you know, I've read, like, the Overstory by Richard Powers, and you go like, well, yeah, that's a Pulitzer Prize winner because it's meaty and.

And.

And very, very kind of smart, but very good.

Whereas less.

I can almost see why that would.

Why that would put someone off.

It would definitely give you the wrong impression of what it is as a book, because it's very fun and very accessible, but very smart as well.

Like, it's just.

It's just a great book.

And I. I recommend it to everyone.

I really do.

And I think it's one that I think you'll really like it.

Okay, well, when we finish, I'm going to buy because it's already sitting in my basket, so I will, I will.

Buy it just in case you came on here and I was like, no, don't buy it.

I was just joking.

I know.

Not me the overthinker or anything.

Okay, let's hear about your final book choice then, Bobby.

So my final one is a really specific one actually.

But it's funny, I've.

I've just realized I chose this, this is probably my most off the cuff choice.

But I've actually mentioned the author twice already when we've been talking today.

So clearly he is someone that looms quite large in my mind.

And it's Jan Martel.

And the book is called the High Mountains of Portugal.

And this is probably.

I've tried to be chronological, so this would be the most recent one I read.

And it is a book what I like.

Here's a book what I like about.

And that's.

It's very hard to describe.

So that's good.

That's why I'm saying that what I like about Jan Martel is he wrote Life of PI and Life of PI you could almost categorize as.

You know, there are people who would say it's like uplit, it's like a fairly accessible, very metaphorical fable.

But his other books are just so much weirder.

Like so much weirder.

Life of PI is fairly weird, but like they, they are really quite leaps of imagination.

And, and this one is.

It's three, it's basically three short stories that are kind of thematically collect, connected.

The first one is about a.

A man whose son dies.

So he decides to only walk backwards from that point on for the rest of his life.

Okay.

The second is about a.

A mortician who's cutting open bodies and kind of finding strange things inside them.

And then the third one is about a widower, a kind of widower in his 60s who befriends a chimpanzee and moves to Portugal with the chimpanzee.

And they're all, all three are kind of set in Portugal.

And I think that.

So there's like things that connect them.

You know, things come in and out so that.

So it is a novel, but it was incredibly bizarre.

But I.

He's got a amazing.

He's amazing at writing, he's got an amazing tone and just like really the.

Is the kind of author that makes you just Hop on board and go.

Yeah, no, I'm.

I'm going to believe.

I'm going to.

I'm going to go along with whatever you're doing.

But I didn't realize until later that I think if I hadn't read that book, I never would have written Isaac and the Egg.

Because I think the combination of the.

The way it balances grief and absurdity and humor and then the.

The sweetness of the relationship between the grieving character and the chimpanzee, I think kind of showed me a way towards writing something similar.

My.

My wife had had a minor operation, I think wisdom tooth operation.

So she was in bed and I was on my own downstairs, and I was watching TV for feeling like, oh, you know, feeling sorry for her and myself.

And it was when the Mandalorian, the Star Wars TV show, had just become a thing and Baby Yoda was.

Was.

Had just become really popular.

And I remember, you know, I just read the High Mountains of Portugal.

Baby Yoda was on the tv.

And I just remember thinking, like, well, I'd love to write a book that's really serious and really sad, but Baby Yoda's in it, too.

And I just went, that's a book.

And that was Isaac and the Egg.

And, you know, I think within a year.

Within a year, the book was written and edited and had a book deal.

You know, it was.

It was such a.

It was such a lightning bolt of an idea.

And it all.

Because of.

Because of lockdown and because of the intensity of the writing process.

It just all happened so fast.

But I think that lightning strike wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for that Yan Martell book.

So I think that's the perfect example of what you're saying about books finding you at the right time.

And it's a huge reason that I try and read widely, like we were saying, because I often find that I'll read something that's totally, totally not related to what I'm writing at the time or what I think I'm writing at the time.

But it will unlock something, and often it will be something totally outside of the genre that I'm writing in.

So I think just like, reading as much as possible really opens those doors.

And I've been asked a few times recently, are you one of those authors that can't read other people's books while you're writing?

And I didn't realize that was a thing.

I have to read constantly while I'm writing.

I think just what I find useful to read changes because if I'm writing something and I read something, that's really.

So, for example, writing main characters, if I read one day while I was writing it, I would only find it useful as a.

Like, don't plagiarize.

This is what not is what not to do because someone's already done it.

Whereas if I'm writing main characters and I read the End of the Affair by Graham Green or, you know, Trust by Hernandez or something, they're these kind of novels that have interesting structures and interesting ways of telling the story.

And you go, oh, well, maybe I could like bring in a bit of this and a bit of that.

And I think writing is this great.

The publishing industry is this great collective effort where everyone's creating books and, and, and imbibing books all the time, that you're always in conversation with all these other authors around you.

So I am a huge advocate of just reading and reading everything.

I love that.

I absolutely love that.

And I was just thinking, I was trying to picture you pitching your idea like with Baby Yoda, like, wait, what.

That's what was great about being unpublished at the time is I didn't have to, I didn't have to sit down with my editor and go like, stay with me here.

But it's baby, there's baby.

And then you can see the eyes glass over.

I could just write the book and I had an agent from the book that hadn't been published and that was a huge part of it because I had this agent so I could, I just wrote a book, gave it to her and essentially said like, this is your problem.

And it's a testament to how good my agent, Millie Hoskins is that she, I think she sent it out.

I think she felt like, I think we both felt like it was something special and she sent it out and we had an offer within 48 hours, which was just the craziest experience of my life.

And that was the moment that everything changed.

And I've been a full time author since then, which it still feels like a real pinch myself thing to be able to say.

But, but yeah, so well deserved.

Well, yeah, I think, yeah, I hope so.

It is, it is.

You're brilliant.

So.

I know, I've guessed.

I think if you could only read one of those books again, which one would it be?

It would be.

It would be Mrs. Dalloway.

Yeah, I mean, Wuthering Heights.

Wuthering Heights.

I there would be a strong argument for.

But yeah, I would say, although if I'm on a desert island and I can take the whole Edge Chronicles books, I'd find them a bit more fun I would spend time with than constantly rereading this, you know, modernist tome.

I wouldn't do that to you.

Just send you Mrs. Dalloway's my, my my kind of go to reread.

Perfect.

Oh, Bobby, thank you so much.

I've loved chatting to you.

It's been so wonderful.

Thank you so much.

It's been great.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I absolutely loved chatting to Bobby.

I found that so interesting and I love how it shows that the right, right book can find you at the right time and maybe even change your life.

Main Characters is out today.

It is a brilliant read, one I would highly recommend.

So do go and treat yourself to a copy.

All of the books that we've talked about today, including the five books that Bobbi has chosen, and we did mention quite a few others, are all listed in the show notes with links to buy, so it'd be super easy for you to find.

If you're enjoying the show, I'd be so grateful if you could take the time to rate reviews, subscribe, and most importantly, tell your friends all about it.

I'll be back next Thursday chatting to another author, and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode too.

Don't forget, there'll be a preview episode coming on Tuesday where you'll find out who will be joining me.

In the meantime, thanks so much for listening and I will see you next week.

Take care.