Shownotes
Joel Benge
Bio
Joel Benge is the principal nerd that talks good at MessageSpecs Consulting and helps other nerds talk good too. Working with companies from Nickelodeon to NASA, Joel has mastered the art of communicating complicated ideas and tech to audiences and teams. His card deck, MessageDeck, gamifies the process to help developers communicate their ideas and discover their credibility builders and hooks for their messaging.
Intro
The salient point of our discussion with Joel Benge revolves around the profound impact of effective communication in the realm of technology and startups. Joel elucidates how the phenomenon known as "the curse of knowledge" often hinders technically proficient individuals from articulating their ideas in a manner that resonates with their audience. He shares a compelling narrative about his journey in a cybersecurity startup, where a card game, inspired by his son, transformed the way complex algorithms were communicated, allowing for clarity and engagement in less than a minute. Our conversation further delves into the intersection of imposter syndrome and self-awareness, emphasizing that mastery in communication does not necessitate perfection but rather an incremental improvement over competitors. Ultimately, Joel advocates that every individual belongs in the spaces they occupy, and it is through self-reflection and strategic messaging that they can effectively convey their innovative ideas.
Conversation
The conversation with Joel Benge unveils the intricate dynamics of communication within the realm of technology and startups. Benge, a seasoned professional who has traversed the landscapes of various sectors from video games to cybersecurity, emphasizes the criticality of effective communication in translating complex technological concepts to diverse audiences. He articulates the phenomenon known as the 'curse of knowledge,' where experts often assume their audience possesses the same level of understanding, leading to presentations that may alienate potential investors or stakeholders. Through his personal experiences, including the development of a card game inspired by his son, Benge illustrates the profound impact of simplifying communication. He posits that the articulation of a 'Big Idea'—a concise statement that encapsulates the essence of a venture—can significantly enhance engagement and understanding among non-experts. This episode serves as a clarion call for founders to embrace clarity in their messaging, thereby fostering connections that transcend mere technical specifications and resonate on an emotional level.
Moreover, the discourse delves into the broader theme of imposter syndrome, juxtaposing it against the 'curse of knowledge.' Benge advocates for self-awareness and the recognition of one’s unique contributions as antidotes to feelings of inadequacy. He asserts that every individual has a rightful place in any professional setting, encouraging listeners to acknowledge their strengths while understanding the value they bring to the table. Through a thoughtful exploration of these concepts, the episode encapsulates the essence of effective communication as a fundamental pillar in the success of tech entrepreneurs.
In an enlightening exchange with Jothy Rosenberg, Joel Benge articulates his journey from a military upbringing to his pivotal roles in high-stakes environments such as NASA and the Department of Homeland Security. Benge reflects on his transition from technical roles to communication-focused positions, where he recognized the necessity for clear and relatable messaging. He recounts his revelation during his tenure at a cybersecurity startup, where the complexity of their product led to a disconnect with potential clients. This experience catalyzed the invention of a card game designed to demystify their technology in a mere forty seconds, exemplifying the potential of innovative communication strategies to bridge gaps between technical concepts and stakeholder understanding.
The episode also delves into practical takeaways that aspiring founders can implement. Benge emphasizes the importance of balance in communication, advocating for a triad approach that harmonizes emotional appeal, logical reasoning, and credibility. He posits that successful pitches require more than just technical prowess; they necessitate an emotional connection that captivates the audience's attention, coupled with logical arguments that validate the proposal. Benge's insightful framework equips listeners with the tools to refine their messaging, urging them to move beyond jargon-laden presentations and towards narratives that resonate with human experiences. As the episode unfolds, it becomes evident that the art of communication is not merely a skill but a strategic advantage in the competitive landscape of startups.
Joel Benge's conversation elucidates the paramount importance of clarity in communication within the technology sector, an insight forged from his diverse experiences across government, academia, and startup ecosystems. He deftly identifies the 'curse of knowledge'—the tendency of experts to assume a shared understanding with their audience—as a significant barrier to effective communication. Drawing from his own journey, Benge shares his struggle to convey intricate cybersecurity concepts to non-technical stakeholders, ultimately leading to the innovative creation of a card game that simplifies complex algorithms into digestible narratives. This anecdote serves as a microcosm of the broader issue faced by many technical founders: the challenge of articulating their vision in a manner that resonates with potential investors and customers.
Throughout the episode, Benge advocates for the concept of the 'Big Idea,' a succinct representation of a startup's core mission that transcends technical descriptions. He encourages founders to focus on what they believe in and what they aim to change in their industry, reiterating that effective communication is about engaging the audience emotionally, logically, and credibly. The discussion also touches upon the notion of imposter syndrome, with Benge suggesting that self-awareness and recognition of one's unique contributions can combat feelings of inadequacy. Ultimately, this episode serves as a vital reminder that in the world of startups, the ability to convey one's message with clarity and conviction is not merely an ancillary skill but an essential component of entrepreneurial success.
Takeaways:
- The solution to imposter syndrome lies in self-awareness and self-reflection, recognizing one's strengths.
- Effective communication requires balancing emotional connection, logical reasoning, and credibility in presentations.
- Overcoming the curse of knowledge involves simplifying complex ideas into relatable concepts for broader audiences.
- The significance of a compelling 'big idea' cannot be overstated; it should resonate with your audience's values.
- To effectively pitch, one must lead with relatable narratives rather than solely technical specifications.
- Mastering the art of communication is essential for tech founders to advocate for their innovative solutions.
- Joel Benge - MessageSpecs LLC | LinkedIn
- Joel's YouTube channel
- TikTok - Make Your Day
- Joel's Instagram
- Joel's Facebook
- MessageSpecs Messaging Consulting
- Who Says You Can't Startup | Full Bundle | Incorrigible Entrepreneur - The online course for startup founders
- Jothy's TEDx talk - On why those with disabilities tend to overachieve
- Our YouTube channel
- Designing Successful Startups — Jothy Rosenberg | Author | Speaker | Podcaster - Site with all podcasts
- Tech Startup Toolkit book
- Please leave us a review
Transcripts
Please meet today's guest, Joel Benge.
Speaker B:I think the the solution to imposter syndrome is self awareness and self reflection.
Speaker B:And just saying, I may not have that, but I have this.
Speaker B:And it's funny, the, the gentleman who hired me at Homeland and at that startup told me something very early on that I still use as a mantra today, which is any room that you can get into, you belong there.
Speaker A:Picture this.
Speaker A:You're a brilliant technical founder with a groundbreaking solution.
Speaker A:But every time you pitch it, you watch your investor's eyes glaze over.
Speaker A:You start with your PhD thesis on self defending artificial intelligence, multi nodal networks using usocial insect behavior and you've already lost them.
Speaker A:That's exactly what happened to today's guest, Joel Benge when he joined in cybersecurity startup that was bleeding money because they couldn't explain their revolutionary technology to anyone who mattered.
Speaker A:The breakthrough came from an unexpected source.
Speaker A:Joel's 8 year old son helped him invent a card game that could explain their complex algorithm.
Speaker A:In 40 seconds.
Speaker A:Joel discovered that the biggest communication killer isn't lack of intelligence.
Speaker A:It's what he calls the curse of knowledge.
Speaker A:Smart founders assume everyone thinks like they do, leading to pitches that sound like biology lessons instead of business opportunities.
Speaker A:From Nickelodeon to NASA to the Department of Homeland Security, Joel has seen how the smartest people in the room often can't get heard.
Speaker A:Today he'll share his proven framework for turning technical complexity into compelling stories.
Speaker A:And why the solution to Imposter Syndrome isn't becoming a perfect speaker.
Speaker A:It's just talking a little bit gooder than the next person.
Speaker A:If you've ever felt like your brilliant idea gets lost in translation, this conversation could change everything.
Speaker A:Welcome Joel.
Speaker A:Thank you for being on this show.
Speaker B:Thanks Jathy, for having me.
Speaker B:I'm excited.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm excited too.
Speaker A:Because what you talk about and you're, and you have such, such a nice way of being friendly to nerds is important.
Speaker A:And that is this whole area of communication.
Speaker A:I remember somebody when I was still a university professor talking about sales and I said, I don't need to sell.
Speaker A:And they said, of course you do.
Speaker A:You live on contracts, you got your job, of course you're selling all the time.
Speaker A:And of course he was right.
Speaker A:Hey, but before we dive into that to set context so everybody knows a little bit, tiny bit about you.
Speaker A:Where are you originally from and where are you right now?
Speaker A:Where do you live right now?
Speaker B:Oh boy.
Speaker B:My home planet was destroyed by an asteroid.
Speaker B:No, I'm kidding.
Speaker B:I'm a military brat.
Speaker B:So originally born in Michigan, but did a tour of the midwestern states until I was about 13 years old and then ended up in the Washington D.C. baltimore area where I've been for, let's see, my birthday was last week, let's just say a very long time.
Speaker B:So I claim the Mid Atlantic as my home but if it really comes down to it, I'll.
Speaker B:I spent my formative years in the Dallas Fort Worth area.
Speaker A:Okay, well you mentioned Michigan.
Speaker A:I'm actually from Detroit myself.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was born in Lansing and we moved out of there when I was about 2 years old and both my parents are from the Midwest and so I have a real.
Speaker B:Even though I never lived in Nebraska, I have the Nebraska ope.
Speaker B:If I'm in a crowd, I bump into people.
Speaker B:Oh, I'll just slide past past you here.
Speaker B:I'm really, I'm really a bit of a chameleon being a military brat.
Speaker B:You can drop me into just about any region and within a matter of hours I'll be looking and talking and acting like the locals.
Speaker A:A good skill to have.
Speaker A:Okay, so you're also a born and bred nerd yourself.
Speaker B:I am.
Speaker B:I come by it naturally.
Speaker B:I, my father was a military doctor, my mom was a, is an artist and a crafty person.
Speaker B:So I've always grown up in a little bit of both worlds.
Speaker B:But this was the early days of computers getting the first PC in the house and I just really took to being a nerd.
Speaker B:But I went to school for theater and education and then eventually found my way into video game companies.
Speaker B:I guess it was just before the dot com bubble burst and I decided to go really heavily into it became, you know, I did, I did help desk at NASA actually.
Speaker B:It's funny, one of my earlier non technical jobs was actually with Nickelodeon.
Speaker B:So I say I've worked with companies from Nickelodeon to NASA and a couple that started with different letters but I ended up just doing the thing and working in a security operations center and working, doing compliance and I was, you know, I thought I was going to be an IT person and then I got an opportunity in the federal government.
Speaker B:They looked at me and they said you're a nerd, but you talk good.
Speaker B:So we're going to make you a communications officer or communications manager.
Speaker B:And then I spent six and a half years at the Department of Homeland Security headquarters liaising and coordinating with all of the programmatic, the cybersecurity program heads and the executive secretariat kind of as a, as a middle person, communicating, translating, writing the wide change your password as frequently as you change your underwear messages for general consumption.
Speaker B:And learned an awful lot about how nerds communicate.
Speaker B:Well, but quite often how we don't.
Speaker B:And I had a startup experience.
Speaker B:I'm sure we can, we can get into it, but I just realized that there has to be a better way of helping smart people advocate for themselves.
Speaker B:And so that's.
Speaker B:I've been on a mission to help every nerd get heard is what I say.
Speaker A:Well, you spent a number of the things you just mentioned are government jobs.
Speaker A:And I've bumped up against the government, either directly because I had contracts with the various entities within the government or because I did a couple of stints that were not startups and I was at large defense contractors.
Speaker A:And they both have the same.
Speaker A:And I'm not going to be very kind about it.
Speaker A:Disease, communications disease, which is they didn't read the Memo that says PowerPoint is a presentation medium and they treat it like it's a way to write books.
Speaker A:You must have seen that over and over again and probably fought against it.
Speaker B:PowerPoint as a document tool, PowerPoint as a design tool, PowerPoint as a. Yeah, the government really, you know, they've got all this, all these resources at their disposal, but PowerPoint seems to be their go to for just about anything.
Speaker B:And it is really the worst tool for communications.
Speaker B:I would say I'm anti PowerPoint personally.
Speaker B:Have to use it, but prefer not to.
Speaker A:Okay, so why don't we back up and you tell us a little bit about your startup experience in the middle of all those other things you mentioned.
Speaker B:So the gentleman who hired me at Homeland Security, he was the brand new director of cybersecurity strategy.
Speaker B:This was when the department's just sort of spinning up.
Speaker B:And when he looked at my resume, he brought me in.
Speaker B:I say he gave me an opportunity to change my life.
Speaker B:And then he left and finished his PhD thesis, got some money together.
Speaker B:Prior to the government, he had actually been in cybersecurity startups, some of the very, very early ones, and went into government.
Speaker B:So when he finished his PhD, he thought, this is my chance to do a startup.
Speaker B:And we were still friendly.
Speaker B:And one day we were having lunch and he says, you know, I've got some really great developers.
Speaker B:What we're doing is really cool, it's cutting edge, it's ahead of its time, and I just can't explain it to anybody.
Speaker B:And I said, well, tell me, tell me what is, what is the product?
Speaker B:What are you working on?
Speaker B:And he goes, oh, it's great, it's based on my PhD, thes, it's a self defending artificial intelligence multi nodal network using the behavior of eusocial insects.
Speaker B:And I said okay, let's let you know I don't have the PhD.
Speaker B:Can you put bring it down to my level a little bit?
Speaker B:And he goes, oh, it's an ant swarm algorithm that tells you where you're going to be hacked next.
Speaker B:I said, okay, that's better.
Speaker B:I said, we have this real gulf between these two levels of explanation.
Speaker B:And I, you know, just probing a little bit.
Speaker B:I asked him about well, what are your, who are your, your target customers?
Speaker B:Are you, are you presenting this to PhDs?
Speaker B:Are you presenting this to cybersecurity researchers?
Speaker B:He goes, oh no.
Speaker B:He goes, this isn't even for the cyber people.
Speaker B:We're targeting the chief risk officers and the CIOs and the CEOs and board members.
Speaker B:And I was like, wow, we really have to ground this message a little bit.
Speaker B:So I came on board as director of comms and marketing, working directly with product management and the developers at the time and just really trying to figure out a better way of positioning this.
Speaker B:The first thing we realized was what we thought was our secret sauce, this ant swarm was an impediment to speaking about value.
Speaker B:Because the first thing we had to do is walk in and say, ants don't communicate with information, they communicate with what we call nervousness.
Speaker B:And this is how ants work.
Speaker B:And so all of our sales presentations opened with a biology lesson.
Speaker B:And so we realized that what we thought was so cool about our technology and our secret sauce, like I said, was an impediment.
Speaker B:And so we stripped that away and we eventually actually, with the help of my 8 year old son, I invented a card game that we could use to demonstrate and visualize the algorithm and explain his thesis in about 40 seconds so that we could just get to the wow part and then move on to the value proposition and all the things that you need to do to get the next call and whatnot.
Speaker B:And that was a real awakening moment for me is how we talk about technology, how cybersecurity presents itself is just two in the weeds sometimes especially.
Speaker B:And I think this goes for all smart people.
Speaker B:We don't mean to do it, but we think we're smarter than others and we want to bring them up.
Speaker B:We either want to bring them up to our level or we try to dumb ourselves down.
Speaker B:And that, that has been the biggest challenge that I've seen with my background, my, my experience and some of the clients that I work with.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I just said, we gotta have a better way of fixing this, a better way of communicating.
Speaker A:Well, how did that company do?
Speaker B:Well, I will say, unfortunately we ran out of money.
Speaker B:We kind of had an early investor.
Speaker B:The terms of the cap sheet wasn't great, scared some of the good money away.
Speaker B:But I would say actually the challenge was we were well ahead of ourselves, ahead of the technology.
Speaker B:I have some clients now that are still trying to do what we were still today trying to do what we were trying to do 12 years ago.
Speaker B:So I like to say the success that came out of that was the learnings and the card deck concept.
Speaker B:So we actually sold the cards as a sales tool and a training tool and we ended up taking them to the RSA conference, doing, doing some, some workshops there, took them to the ISC Squared conference, which that's the large credentialing body for a lot of the cybersecurity.
Speaker B:We ended up taking them to Carnegie Mellon University where he's an ADJ professor.
Speaker B:And today he uses this card methodology to teach cybersecurity executives how to communicate to non executives.
Speaker B:So the real breakthrough was in how do we use novel techniques to communicate challenging and deep concepts.
Speaker B:I actually went on to design my own card game that I use with my clients today to help them figure out their messaging.
Speaker B:And so that's what I do today is I consult with these really smart companies, these really smart founders, researchers, et cetera, who are almost can't get out of their own way.
Speaker B:I wouldn't go so far as to say they have a disease, but they have the curse of knowledge.
Speaker B:And so what my cards are is kind of a cross between Tarot and chatgpt where I'm using them as a prompting mechanism to force conversations that help them discover the really novel ways of approaching their messaging that otherwise they forget about because they're, they're too intellectual.
Speaker B:The, the reason to do this was because I have to show these cards to people.
Speaker B:It's almost the, it's almost the.
Speaker B:I have to show it to you for you to understand it, which is a challenge in, in, in technology sometimes.
Speaker B:A lot of my clients, they tell me, you know, if I could just get in the room, if I could just show it to somebody that can.
Speaker B:That is sometimes a challenge.
Speaker B:So sometimes you have to have that, that, that ah, that aha moment.
Speaker B:So that's why the idea of putting something in somebody's hands and doing a big reveal gets the imagination going.
Speaker B:The root, go ahead.
Speaker A:That's a Great.
Speaker A:That's a great trick.
Speaker A:I mean, not a trick in the sense of card trick, but.
Speaker A:And so you've got two cameras wired into the feed.
Speaker A:So Riverside thinks it's just one camera.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:How do you switch between them?
Speaker A:Is it just a single button push?
Speaker B:I'm using a switch box called a Elgato stream deck.
Speaker B:It's what all the Twitch streamers use, all the video game streamers.
Speaker B:So I spent a lot of time on YouTube because I knew that we were entering this era of video where we had to be able to explain to people.
Speaker B:And so I can do things like bring up my model and my methodology on the screen and it's just a way of again, not having to explain.
Speaker B:If you can show somebody and use our visual thinking and our spatial recognition and this goes really deep into some of the stuff I talk about in the book that I recently wrote.
Speaker B:We have to find different ways of communicating.
Speaker B:So visually using all of our senses.
Speaker B:Again, you can't throw everything in a PowerPoint slide, right.
Speaker B:You have to be able to.
Speaker B:Wow, people.
Speaker A:Getting back to that sort of the crux of the discussion that company left you, it ran out of Runway is that when you decided to go off on this other mission to go to start focusing on helping people communicate.
Speaker B:Well, I actually had a slight start stopover in branding and marketing agencies.
Speaker B:So you know, I was, I found myself with a lot of time on my hands and, and, and no work.
Speaker B:And I found a marketing agency right in my backyard.
Speaker B:Again, I'm just out, I'm just outside of Washington D.C. so we have a lot of defense contractors and a lot of support support companies, service companies.
Speaker B:And I found myself at a marketing and creative agency.
Speaker B:Our primary customers were the defense department, cybersecurity startups and a couple three letter agencies that you may have heard about.
Speaker B:So I found myself on the outside now as a branding and marketing strategist for the same nerds, the same defense type minded people, government minded people and cybersecurity minded people that I had been just a few years prior.
Speaker B:And I realized the biggest challenge with startups and smart people is if they can't communicate on their own, they often try to abdicate their responsibility to a marketing company and say, well, just make us look cool.
Speaker B:And I experienced a lot of companies coming in for website refreshes and I was the content strategist, I was the one who was going to write the websites for these clients and we would sell them an eight week website refresh project and I would raise my hand in the internal meetings and say, this company, I'm a cybersecurity guy and I don't even understand what they're doing.
Speaker B:They're using so much commodity language.
Speaker B:They look and sound and smell like everybody else.
Speaker B:I think it would really benefit them to have a messaging project first.
Speaker B:We need to do a lot of figuring out what their message is.
Speaker B:We need to everything on their web.
Speaker B:Current website is just way too technical.
Speaker B:And invariably the clients were more interested in speed than getting the correct message.
Speaker B:And they were.
Speaker B:They would say, this is a big red flag to me when they say, well, we'll just get the website done first and we'll figure the words out later.
Speaker B:And that's really putting the.
Speaker B:It's not even putting the cart before the horse.
Speaker B:It's like pushing the cart down the hill while the horse is still like munching on.
Speaker B:On hay.
Speaker B:The horse is the messaging.
Speaker B:That's the power behind what's going to convert people and get their excitement and.
Speaker B:And move them through a sales process.
Speaker B:The website's just a delivery mechanism.
Speaker B:And so I did a couple.
Speaker B:Couple marketing agencies and then I realized I needed to.
Speaker B:To step up.
Speaker B:So step up the upstream a little bit.
Speaker B:So I don't even call what I do marketing so much as messaging, which is more fundamental.
Speaker B:Messaging is understanding team alignment.
Speaker B:It's understanding your core principles.
Speaker B:It's getting everybody moving in the same direction, which can be a challenge in a startup because there are so many people who are motivated.
Speaker B:There's a lot of people who are like, oh, we're a flat organization and everybody just does a little bit of everything.
Speaker B:And that, to me, sounds like you've got a team that can be pulled in many, many directions.
Speaker B:But having a core of understanding of what are we about, what's our big idea, what are our major value propositions.
Speaker B:If everybody understands that, everybody's then rowing in the same direction.
Speaker B:And so that's what I've spent this past, I would say two and a half years building.
Speaker A:And what's the book called?
Speaker B:So the book is called Be a Nerd that Talks Good.
Speaker B:And it really is.
Speaker B:The book came out of the card workshop that I do.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And I'm happy to.
Speaker B:I'll give you a little overview of the.
Speaker B:Of the cards in a.
Speaker B:In a second.
Speaker B:But the book was really a spin out of that because I had this card deck that I was personally using, and this is a situation I think founders find themselves in.
Speaker B:They built the thing because they needed it, and then they need to share it with other people so that other people can use it.
Speaker B:This is when you go from being a tinkerer to being, you know, a.
Speaker B:A business owner and a founder.
Speaker B:So I had this deck of cards that I was using with pretty good success with some of my clients.
Speaker B:And I had a lot of people say, well, can I just buy the cards and do it myself?
Speaker B:And I said, yeah, let me, let me write a document that will tell you about the different levels of the cards, and it'll be.
Speaker B:It'll be a guide.
Speaker B:And as I was working on it, I started thinking, well, I need to include this little bit of anecdote about Aristotle, because this piece came from classical philosophy, and I want to explain why this mechanism works, because this is neuroscience.
Speaker B:And so I would drop a little piece in there, and I got 20 or 30 pages in, and I thought, shoot, I'm writing a book.
Speaker B:And I didn't want it to be a marketing book.
Speaker B:It's not a, it's not a marketing book.
Speaker B:It is literally a guide for nerds, for thinkers to crystallize and clarify their own thinking so that they can almost get their thoughts out of their head, onto the table in front of them, and take a step back and look at it dispassionately to make decisions about what's the proper way to deliver this, whether it's in a brief, in a presentation, in a piece of collateral on a website.
Speaker B:And so the be a nerd that talks good is just kind of my, my rallying cry because there are so many people who think they can't do it.
Speaker B:I can never be a Steve Jobs.
Speaker B:Well, you don't have to be Steve Jobs.
Speaker B:You don't have to speak perfectly well.
Speaker B:You've only got to talk a little bit gooder than the next person or the person that you're in competition with or the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If you're in a series of pitches, the person who goes before you and after you, if you can just stand out a little bit more, then you have an advantage.
Speaker B:And so I want to just help nerds build that advantage because we've.
Speaker B:We've already got the smarts.
Speaker B:We ought to be good at talking about it.
Speaker A:They've got the smarts, but they have.
Speaker A:I perceive a difference between the kind of government people that would say, let's build the website, and then the words could go in later.
Speaker A:There's a difference between those folks and the startup founder, who is a technical founder, has a technical background, came out of any number of places, could have come out of university like I did.
Speaker A:Or could have come out of a company where they worked in a technical field, but they have an idea.
Speaker A:And so to me the key thing is that they've got the idea and the passion.
Speaker A:You need the person with the passion to actually be the leader of the company.
Speaker A:And so this gets into something that I'd love to get your view on, which is the role that imposter syndrome plays in this because there are a lot of technical folks who are afraid of a number of things they're afraid of, of what they don't know because they're moving into an area that's not in their comfort zone and they're afraid of failure where they, they're like as a CEO, let's say I, I have to raise money and, and I'm, I don't know how to do that and I'm, I'm going to get killed by the, the investors.
Speaker A:And so those, those folks need to understand that they do have the knowledge and they do have the smarts, just like you said.
Speaker A:And they have to get over their fear and their imposter syndrome.
Speaker A:And so do you talk about imposter syndrome at all in the book?
Speaker A:Hi.
Speaker A:The podcast you are listening to is a companion to my recent book Tech Startup Toolkit how to Launch Strong and Exit Big.
Speaker A:This is the book I wish I'd had as I was founding and running eight startups over 35 years.
Speaker A:I tell the unvarnished truth about what went right and especially about what went wrong.
Speaker A:You could get it from all the usual booksellers.
Speaker A:I hope you like it.
Speaker A:It's a true labor of love.
Speaker A:Now back to the show.
Speaker B:Not as much as imposter syndrome as the, I would call the curse of knowledge.
Speaker B:So I, I think the other side of the coin of, of imposter syndrome is the, the being the.
Speaker B:Not the know it all, not the arrogance of being a know it all, but the assumption that everyone, I think imposter syndrome is everyone is smarter than me, better than me and what am I doing here?
Speaker B:And what I approach it from is the curse of knowledge, which is everyone is just as smart as I am and therefore I can speak to everyone as a peer, I can speak to everyone on the same level.
Speaker B:And I think it's the self recognition and understanding where you're skilled and where you're not skilled and can improve lets you, that is, that's the solution to imposter syndrome, but it's also the solution to the curse of knowledge because you're able to say, okay, I may not be the most articulate speaker.
Speaker B:But what do I have that I can use to compensate for that?
Speaker B:Can I use my passion?
Speaker B:Okay, great.
Speaker B:But if you go full bore with only passion, then you fall into the.
Speaker B:The trap of not delivering enough intellectually.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:We see a lot of these founders.
Speaker B:It's all smoke and mirrors, not developing enough credibility, not developing enough trust.
Speaker B:So there.
Speaker B:There are three real components of the balance that I use with my clients, which is helping them understand.
Speaker B:There's emotion, logic, and credibility.
Speaker B:Heart, head, and gut, which are the three organs that we use as human beings to make decisions.
Speaker B:The gut is a cheeseburger on my cards because I didn't want to put three organs.
Speaker B:But if you're.
Speaker B:If you're approaching it purely intellectually, if you're approaching purely intellectually, you'll fall flat because people won't be interested.
Speaker B:If you approach purely from an emotional standpoint, then you'll underwhelm with the.
Speaker B:You'll underwhelm the audience because they're like, well, there's no meat there.
Speaker B:If you purely lead with your credentials and you purely lead with credibility, well, then they say, well, do you actually have an idea?
Speaker B:And do I care?
Speaker B:And so what I recommend to people is, is first understand what you're leading with, and then look to see are you balancing and representing those other aspects of decision making?
Speaker B:And actually, it's funny, for the marketers out there, if I were to turn one of my cards sideways, this is a marketing funnel.
Speaker B:Get somebody's attention and let them pay attention to you.
Speaker B:Deliver just enough information to get the next meeting and then build enough credibility that you can convert them and make a sale.
Speaker B:That is the marketing funnel.
Speaker B:But it's also how we engage as human beings.
Speaker B:So, you know, I talk about combating the blank stare.
Speaker B:If you're sitting in a.
Speaker B:If you're sitting in a meeting and you're droning on, or you're delivering this massive PowerPoint slide that's got so many bullets on it, and you start to see people, people start to.
Speaker B:To fade off.
Speaker B:You get that blank stare moment.
Speaker B:You've got an opportunity to inject a little bit of humor or wake them up a little bit to.
Speaker B:To sort of reel them back.
Speaker B:Because once you've lost somebody emotionally, once their caveman brain, which I talk about in the book, checks out, or you've overwhelmed their caveman brain with too many facts and figures, too many numbers, they're juggling, you know, subconsciously all these things in the back of their head, trying to make sense of what you're presenting to them, you've pretty much lost and it's hard to get that back.
Speaker B:So it's balancing it as you're presenting to them.
Speaker B:I think the, to get back to kind of the original question, I think the solution to imposter syndrome is self awareness and self reflection.
Speaker B:And just saying, I may not have that, but I have this.
Speaker B:And it's funny, the gentleman who hired me at Homeland and at that startup told me something very early on that I still use as a mantra today, which is, any room that you can get into, you belong there.
Speaker B:You know, whether you're like looking around or you're on a pitch stage and wow, everybody else here is so, so well rehearsed then that if you're feeling that, then maybe you need to do some more rehearsing or everybody here is, they've got, they've got accolades and I don't.
Speaker B:Well, maybe you need to look out there and get some accolades so that little nagging voice that you have can help you look for those gaps and opportunities.
Speaker B:But wherever you are, that's where the universe or whatever put you and you belong there.
Speaker B:You need to seize and compensate with what you do have.
Speaker B:And then afterwards do some self reflection and get another couple turns of the crank in.
Speaker A:I had a guest recently that was also talking about communication.
Speaker A:He was a VC or he is a vc.
Speaker A:What he was describing was the, the mental model that all investors seem to have about the structure, which really means the order in which you're going to present information to them.
Speaker A:It's similar to what you just said about your card.
Speaker A:You know, what he described was if you don't follow this logical sequence, which, by the way, never has your technology coming up front.
Speaker A:Never.
Speaker A:No, but if you don't follow that, then you're creating this cognitive dissonance in their head.
Speaker A:They're working really hard and they don't want to work so hard to try to fit what you're saying back into the order that they want it in and you're going to lose them.
Speaker A:And one of the things that was really interesting that he said is that he's seen people who do this right, able to get all of the.
Speaker A:And he thinks there's five components, but all five of these components of the critical pitch in 1 minute, 3 minutes, 7 minutes, 30 minutes, it doesn't matter.
Speaker A:And of course, the most challenging is the one minute.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, he was, he was telling me there was this meeting and there were 55 people who were making 55 pitches and 55 minutes.
Speaker B:Wow, that's a marathon day for.
Speaker B:And the person who I sympathize the most for are the audience and the receivers because they're 55 one minute pitches.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:And in.
Speaker B:In my model, so it's funny, it's funny.
Speaker B:You said he had five so on.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In my model, once we understand this balance, I basically ripped off Maslow's hierarchy of needs and said there are six different qualities.
Speaker B:I'll check my autofocus here.
Speaker B:Six different qualities of communication or messages.
Speaker B:Starting at the very bottom with the high density, low emotion, moving up to the low density, high emotion stuff.
Speaker B:So starting at the top, your big idea.
Speaker B:One big idea.
Speaker B:And a lot of people have this challenge.
Speaker B:I'll say to a client or a prospect, I'll say, well, what's your big idea?
Speaker B:And they'll go, oh, we're a cloud based identity access management solution.
Speaker B:And I'm like, no, no, you're a.
Speaker B:That's your Gartner category.
Speaker B:What's your big idea?
Speaker B:Oh, and it stops them cold.
Speaker B:The big idea needs to be the one thing that you want people to walk away if they remember nothing else.
Speaker B:It's that one thing.
Speaker B:And I'll the cards.
Speaker B:I'll prompt someone by saying something like, what's something you want to change about your industry?
Speaker B:When you ask a founder that and their eyes light up and they go, well, do you know why we do the things we do?
Speaker B:Because we believe yada, yada, yada, the moment they say we believe, it's not about the technology, it's not about the, even the problem space, it's it.
Speaker B:That is their passion.
Speaker B:And that can be a great big idea.
Speaker B:But it can also be something like, what opportunity do you see that others don't?
Speaker B:Or my favorite what or whom do you advocate for?
Speaker B:And so, you know, the next level down is sort of like, okay, once someone has the big idea, we've got to contextualize it for them in their life.
Speaker B:So maybe we start telling stories and we can say, where do you feel tension between your consumers and their stakeholders?
Speaker B:Or hey, tell a story about how you stumbled on your breakthrough, which is great because it shows vulnerability, but it's also answering subconscious questions that the audience might have, like, well, why should I listen to this person?
Speaker B:I could just do this.
Speaker B:Okay, well, if you can pre, pre game and work workshop through several stories, you can have a whole bunch of things that are in your pocket, ready to go, depending on your pitch.
Speaker B:What's the onboarding experience like?
Speaker B:Talk about Your origin story in three sentences.
Speaker B:And once, once they understand, oh, I understand the big idea.
Speaker B:I understand how this relates to me and whether it's relevant to me.
Speaker B:The next step is value propositions.
Speaker B:And a lot of people think about value as in these mission vision values.
Speaker B:And maybe I'm just jaded as a former Fed, but I think mission statements are nonsense.
Speaker B:In fact, I had Guy Kawasaki on my podcast a few weeks ago and he said, oh, mission statements are bs.
Speaker B:Nobody cares about mission statements.
Speaker B:You've got to find something else.
Speaker B:So once you've contextualize, you want to talk about value propositions.
Speaker B:And it's about understanding the difference between a tangible value proposition, an intangible value proposition, maybe talking about secondary order.
Speaker B:So this is one of my favorite cards.
Speaker B:What downstream benefits do your customers receive because of you having a real clear path of the value propositions?
Speaker B:The what's in it for your.
Speaker B:For the person who's listening.
Speaker B:And that can be different from a pitch, it can be different from a sales presentation.
Speaker B:It can be different from, from a talent acquisition standpoint.
Speaker B:So you have to very clearly understand what those are.
Speaker B:The thing I think probably your.
Speaker B:Your was not represented in your other.
Speaker B:Your other guest model might have been this, which is the mantras.
Speaker B:These are the coded language that we use that are kind of inside jokes.
Speaker B:So what phrase do you find yourself repeating often?
Speaker B:And can you relate it to a phrase your customer hears often?
Speaker B:So I know your phrase that you go by is, who says I can't?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so that has become your mantra, your rallying cry.
Speaker B:And for the same audience members who hear you say that and go, oh, yeah, that's how I feel too.
Speaker B:That little bit of language that you use can become a real forcing mechanism in building, building the empathy and building the credibility.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there are some exercises on how to build out your mantras.
Speaker B:And then we get into the boring stuff that tech people talk about, proof points.
Speaker B:But there are differences between metrics and outcomes.
Speaker B:There are environmental proof points, there are testimonials that you can get.
Speaker B:So those are.
Speaker B:A lot of people are like, well, I just, I've got all these numbers.
Speaker B:I said, well, can you find a way of taking a number and turning it into a story?
Speaker B:So I have a lot of clients who, they have the numbers, they have outcomes, or they have results.
Speaker B:They could say, well, we reduce your workload by 47%.
Speaker B:Okay, great, that's nice.
Speaker B:Maybe I'm a financially minded person and I'll be like, yeah, 47, that sounds pretty good.
Speaker B:But if you can get a testimonial from a consumer that says we no longer have to double staff our shifts, whoa, that has an emotional aspect to it.
Speaker B:But a 47% reduction in workforce and not double staffing your shifts could be are pretty much the same root proof point.
Speaker B:But you've got to do the workshopping to figure out the two different sides of a coin for a proof point.
Speaker B:And then the rest of the cards in the deck are really the bottom ground technical things.
Speaker B:What does it do?
Speaker B:How does it bring efficiency and speed?
Speaker B:What in your.
Speaker B:And your platform is open and closed.
Speaker B:But there are so many different technical questions.
Speaker B:Once you've gotten someone down the funnel, once they're doing their technical due diligence that they're going to ask about and if they ask a question and you hem and ha and you say oh, I have to think about that, then you lose a lot of credibility.
Speaker B:And so there are a lot of exercises that I put my clients through to pre think through those messages.
Speaker B:And then once you've got all the cards filled out, I help people put together a messaging platform that reconstitutes that pyramid so that they have a go to source of well, I know I've got a one minute pitch, so I better have something emotional.
Speaker B:I need a value proposition.
Speaker B:I need a really good story.
Speaker B:That's about all I'm going to have to say in this pitch.
Speaker B:But a pitch does not get you business.
Speaker B:A pitch just gets you the next step.
Speaker B:So you really should focus on top of funnel or hey, I'm in due diligence now, I better come prepared with and then you go to the, you go to the messaging platform.
Speaker A:So I think this VC I'm referring to and you would really have a lot to talk about.
Speaker A:In fact, you have Guy Kawasaki in common who wrote a testimonial for his book, so which was, you know, which was a novel by the way.
Speaker B:The reason I got Guy Kawasaki was because of my book, because I omitted him from my book accidentally.
Speaker B:The concept of mantras that I shared I actually got from him when I was in the government many, many years ago.
Speaker B:And you know, years later I put together this, this framework and as I was reviewing the book two weeks before it released, it occurred to me and dawned on me that I had gotten that idea from Guy and I sent him an email just apologizing.
Speaker B:I'm so sorry I ripped off your idea and I didn't even acknowledge you in my book.
Speaker B:My bad.
Speaker B:I'd love to send you a copy of My book to say, to say I'm sorry.
Speaker B:And I've just launched a podcast called Nerds that Talk Good.
Speaker B:I'd love to have you on it someday.
Speaker B:And he was gracious enough to come on board.
Speaker B:So in my second edition of the book, I have to add an acknowledgement to him and maybe I'll get him to write the full forward.
Speaker A:Okay, this shifting gears a little bit because I love ending with this, this question.
Speaker A:Because anybody who has been involved with a startup, has written a book, has, you know, has set off in a new direction, all of these things and many more that you've done has fundamentally a lot of grit.
Speaker A:And I do.
Speaker A:Basically.
Speaker A:Who says I can't?
Speaker A:Is a statement about grit.
Speaker A:And so I'd love to know what your story.
Speaker A:Where do you think your grit comes from?
Speaker B:Oh, man.
Speaker B:I would say that it comes from where I started, which is being a military brat and having to uproot and restart my life and reinvent myself in a new school every two to three years.
Speaker B:That is, that's where a lot of it came from.
Speaker B:And you know, I, I, I wouldn't change it for the world.
Speaker B:Cause it was an amazing experience and, But I don't feel that I have roots as much as I have the ability to root myself wherever I need to be.
Speaker B:And that, that I think is, is a, is a testament to grit is to be able to say, whatever situation I find myself in, I'm going to be okay.
Speaker B:I'm a very optimistic person too.
Speaker B:I just, maybe I'm too.
Speaker B:Maybe despite being a nerd, I'm too dumb to know any better, but I just really believe that things will work out if I just work as hard as I can.
Speaker B:It doesn't always work out that way.
Speaker B:But, you know, I'm still here, I'm still breathing.
Speaker A:You also have to be an optimist to put up with startups and be able to, you know the old Japanese proverb, fall down six times, get up seven.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:As long as I'm breathing, there's always, there's always an opportunity to take that next step.
Speaker A:That's very good.
Speaker A:I think the, what you're doing is very valuable to tech founders.
Speaker A:And I think what you're doing is, is very helpful.
Speaker A:And I, so I want to thank you for, for coming on and talking about it.
Speaker B:Well, thank you for having me on and, and for everything that you do.
Speaker B:Yeah, my, my whole.
Speaker B:Again, much to my wife's chagrin, she's like, why are you working with so many founders?
Speaker B:They don't have.
Speaker B:They don't always have the money to pay you.
Speaker B:And I'm like, that's all right because you're planting a thousand flowers and some of them are going to bloom.
Speaker B:And that's another thing I learned from geicawasaki.
Speaker A:All right, well, thank you very much again.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:Here's your Founders toolkit from today's conversation with Joel.
Speaker A:Takeaway number one Balance heart, head and gut in every pitch.
Speaker A:Stop leading with pure technology or pure emotion.
Speaker A:Joel's framework requires you to engage all three decision making centers, emotional connection to grab attention, logical value propositions to justify the decision, and credibility markers to build trust.
Speaker A:If you only hit one of these, you fall flat.
Speaker A:Master all three and you'll convert skeptics into believers.
Speaker A:Takeaway number two Beat the curse of knowledge with the Big Idea Test.
Speaker A:Before your next investor meeting, ask yourself, what's my big idea?
Speaker A:If you answer with your Gartner category or technical specs, you failed the test.
Speaker A:Your Big idea should start with we believe and address what you want to change about your industry.
Speaker A:Joel's client went from explaining ant swarm algorithms to saying, we tell you where you'll be hacked next.
Speaker A:One sentence changed everything.
Speaker A:Takeaway number three you don't need to be perfect, just a little gooder Imposter syndrome tells you that you need to be Steve Jobs to succeed.
Speaker A:Joel's truth?
Speaker A:You just need to communicate slightly better than the person pitching before or after.
Speaker A:You focus on your strengths, whether that's passion, technical depth or storytelling, and use them to compensate for areas where you're still developing.
Speaker A:Any room you can get into, you belong there.
Speaker A:That's the toolkit.
Speaker A:Now go build something that matters and make sure people understand why they should care.
Speaker A:And that's our show with Joel.
Speaker A:The show notes contain useful resources and links.
Speaker A:Please follow and rate us@podchaser.com designing successful startups.
Speaker A:Also, please share and like us on your social media channels.
Speaker A:This is Jothi Rosenberg saying TTFN Tata for now.
