The principal focus of this podcast episode revolves around the recent achievement of triathlete Kristian Blumenfeldt, who has purportedly shattered the VO2 max record by reaching an astonishing figure exceeding 100 milliliters per minute. This milestone has ignited considerable debate within the triathlon and cycling community, particularly regarding the accuracy and implications of such a measurement, especially when juxtaposed against elite cyclists. Throughout the discourse, we delve into the nuances of VO2 max, its significance in endurance sports, and the potential psychological ramifications of this record on competitors. Furthermore, the episode explores the trajectory of Hayden Wild as he prepares for the New Zealand National Time Trial Championships, contemplating the possibilities of his Olympic aspirations. Finally, we discuss the complexities of shoe drop in running, emphasizing its impact on biomechanics and injury prevention, thereby providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of current topics pertinent to athletes and enthusiasts alike.

Links to topics discussed:

The TriDoc Podcast

Matt's Instagram

Jeff's Instagram

LifeSport Coaching

Email Jeff: tri_doc@icloud.com

Email Matt: Matt@thetemponews.com

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What would happen if you brought together a professional triathlete and producer of one of the most widely read triathlon newsletters.

Together with the tridoc medical contributor for Triathlete magazine, age group winner and coach at LifeSport coaching.

Let's say you had the makings of a pretty good podcast.

Welcome to Tempo Talks.

Two perspectives, one sport.

All things triathlon.

Hello.

Hello everyone.

Welcome back to another episode of Tempo Talks.

I'm your host, Matthew Sharp, along with my capable, ever capable co host Jeff Sankoff.

Jeff, what's going on?

What's going on in the world?

You're busy.

Are we training much right now?

What's going on?

So I got the MRI on my ankle.

Last we talked I had my shoulder results and now I've got an ankle.

No dramatic, no major damage, but pretty significant tendinitis that unfortunately is going to keep me out of running for another four to six weeks.

So I am doing a big bike block, doing a lot of swimming, a lot of lifting and I'm actually feeling, feeling better bike form than I usually do at this point in the year.

So I'm hopeful that the bike fitness will translate to run fitness when I'm able to start running again.

But we'll see, we'll see.

So far it only hurts me when I run, so I feel like it's hopeful.

It's a loading issue.

Just that the loading, the forces.

Yeah, that's the beauty thing of the sport, right?

You can't run, but you got three other things you can choose from.

There's a riches or you have options, I guess, which is great.

That's definitely what I love about the sport.

And you can focus on, like you said, improving your bike.

You're feeling good on the bike, obviously.

I think, I think everybody loves most people like running, but being able to do all those things is still great too.

Yeah, I don't.

It's funny, I usually have to be off running for a little while to miss it because while I do enjoy running, I also know that took beats me down a little bit.

So now that I haven't run in about a month, I am definitely missing it and I'm feeling like, gosh, I don't feel sore.

I feel like I'm all recovered from anything that might have been bothering me at all.

So maybe there's something to this little extended break of not running.

But I also know that when I start running it means I gotta build back all that adaptation again and build up the resiliency.

It's a bit of a plus minus But I'm hopeful that I'll be able to get back to it and things will work out.

How about you?

How are things going over there?

Across the mountains, in the desert, across the mountains.

I feel like I'm full on with the work right now.

It's funny, it's basically like I work during the week and then training camp with my wife Kirsten on the weekend.

So Monday is definitely recovery day for me.

I need to recover from my.

You're like one of us.

I know.

And it makes me even more impressed with the folks who are doing it all.

Doing the Ironman training and the full time job.

I'm getting running during the week, a little bit of gym stuff.

I would be swimming honestly more during the day or.

Sorry, not during the day, but pre work or whatever.

But the pool, that's actually very close to us.

It's under renovations right now, so my swim block will have to wait for a little bit.

But I was always a bit of a swimmer so I don't need to.

Yeah, you'll probably bounce back just fine.

Yeah, for sure.

Some work done for sure.

Kirsten's build up to Oceanside, that's going well?

Yeah, we're definitely in the early stages of the build, but she's now clicking away some weeks.

I think part of the thing of moving away, away from your typical environment to a new place, you got to get that team assembled like we used to call it the integrated support team.

So that's for an athlete like her.

That's massage, that's physio, strength and conditioning.

She's got some bike fit resources here already, which is great.

So it's taken her a little bit to onboard and sort those pieces out, but I think she's got that dialed now.

So that's nice.

When you feel like you have a good team around you, you're not just training hard, you've got the good support.

Things are looking good for the Oceanside build anyway.

So I'm excited to get my butt kicked on the weekends during that.

What about other athletes?

I know there's a fair number of triathletes in Tucson.

Are there fair number where you guys are?

Up in Scottsdale.

I feel like they definitely shouldn't be here right now.

This weekend is actually this big like golf tournament, the Waste Management Phoenix Open and that's a huge event here.

A lot of traffic, very busy on the road.

So definitely a time to be in Tucson up here.

Like I've spent a lot of winters in Scottsdale, Phoenix area training and it's pretty good.

Obviously the weather's weather is amenable.

I think Tucson definitely is superior for the cycling.

They've got great pool facilities as well.

Running.

I haven't ran that much in Tucson.

I only see people doing the videos on like the bike path.

It's like pavement or whatever.

I like the soft surface and there's lots of good soft surface here.

If I was purely just training all the time, maybe Tucson would be the play.

I think I understand why a lot of the athletes, a lot of good cyclists down there.

So maybe I should have spent more time down there during my days to soak up some of that magic.

But I think a goal of ours is definitely to get down there at least for a weekend or two this spring.

We know a lot of people who are going to be down there, so it'd be fun to link up at least on the weekend with some folks down there.

Cool.

We will look forward to hearing back on that kind of fun weekend extravaganza.

That should be.

Should be some interesting insights he'll be able to give us on who's looking good at that point.

Yes, of course, of course.

A little scouting.

Pre season scouting.

Yeah.

All right.

We are in that time of the year where the stories are not going to be race related, but we do have some good ones to cover today.

Matt, what are we going to be talking about on this episode?

This episode we got a few interesting topics to delve into.

The first one is this record VO2 max, over a hundred from Christian Blumenthal.

Just stirring up the pot here.

A little controversy behind it.

So we'll probably get to that.

Including Also, what is VO2 Max?

I think Jeff owes me an explanation because I probably will butcher it.

We're going to talk about Hayden Wilde competing in the New Zealand Road TT Championships.

Could we see him attempting an Olympic double?

Maybe we'll find out.

He'll be the latest, right?

The latest.

Yeah, exactly.

It's a trend.

It's a trend.

And then we're finally going to finish off with another kind of training esque topic, just talking about shoe drop in running shoes, what that means for you.

We'll get into that.

Just talk about that a little bit because I think it's an interesting topic that I wish I knew more about growing up in the sport because I probably could have avoided some injuries.

It's something that's really become much more prevalent in the last.

Probably later.

So.

So yeah, we'll definitely get into that.

But we will begin with this conversation around recent announcement that Christian Blumenfeld has shattered all the previous records.

The previous record being something like 97.1, I believe, in a Norwegian cyclist.

Norwegian.

A Norwegian.

They're VO2 max.

I don't know what's going on there.

Cross country skiing background.

But it's also why the controversy exists, because there is some question about the number itself.

So tell us what he did and tell us why people are abuzz.

So this was on a treadmill test, I believe it's.

They're doing their preseason testing.

It popped off that he did.

I think it was 101 point something.

And that's 7, I think.

0.7.

Yeah.

And so again, like 101.

What's the units of that?

101.

So it's milliliters per minute.

So VO2 max is essentially a measure of how much oxygen you are able to consume at the cellular level per minute.

And it is a reflection of how hard you can push yourself in aerobic endurance.

Because the higher your VO2 max, the better your cells are able to quickly metabolize oxygen, burn the ATP, which is your intracellular fuel, and in order to burn that and produce as much.

Sorry, you're burning glucose to produce ATP.

But then the ATP itself has to also the bond of ATP has to go to 8 ADP plus 1 phosphorus to release all this energy.

Anyways, long and the short of it is the amount of oxygen that you consume at a cellular level per minute can be defined by this VO2 max, and it can be derived in a variety of different ways.

A metabolic cart is generally the most accurate way to do it, and that is what they were using.

But there are some parameters that have to be very finely tuned in order to make sure that your numbers are accurate.

And that is where some of these questions are coming up.

And just for reference, I'm sure everybody's familiar with one Tade Pugaccia, who is by far the best cyclist on the planet right now.

His VO2 Max measures in the mid-90s.

So the suggestion is that Christian Blumenfeld.

Yeah, Christian Blumenfeld having a VO2 max, that is like significant 10% more than tyre Pogaccia definitely raises eyebrows amongst the cycling crowd.

And some of the skepticism and really sarcasm that we were seeing was coming from the cyclists.

And part of me was like, guys, are you feeling a little, like, bruised.

Goes here, a little jealousy there.

So I. I think we have to take both with a grain of salt.

We have to take the degree of skepticism, but also we probably need to think about whether or not this number really makes sense.

But honestly, who cares?

The fact of the matter is the guy is proving once again his bonafides.

And even if his number is down in the 90s, closer to pagachos.

That's insane.

It's insane.

It is insane.

The issue, there's like issues controversy around, I guess the calculations or the calibration of the metabolic cart, people are throwing that around.

Blumenfeld didn't even come out and say this was.

It sounds like it was taken off a slide in a video or something.

They weren't trying to like make this all public unless it was like, I don't know, like a little kind of insider thing.

Easter egg.

It was an Easter egg and they were hoping.

The thing is, what I love about this, and especially because it's like this time of year, people are building into their training.

His competition will be getting into their training.

And this time of year where you're, you're working hard but you're not feeling good, you're coming off your downtime, but you're not.

Your ego is not at its finest, it's not at its peak.

And so I almost think this is some kind of like informational warfare a little bit from the Norwegians trying to get in the heads of the competition.

In January, Blumenfeld, he's popping off a hundred plus VO2.

I'm not doing that.

I'm only doing zone two work.

What's going on?

I think that was, that's my interesting angle from this, my conspiracy, I guess, or something like that.

It's like at the end of the day, these numbers, VO2 max, is that the be all, end all having a great VO2 max?

Yes, absolutely.

Oh, I don't think so.

I know so.

It absolutely tracks with your ability to perform in endurance sport.

It's not.

Look, sprinters are not going to have a huge VO2 max because they're performing in an anaerobic capacity.

But if you're doing anything aerobically, like we are, a higher VO2 max is going to track with a higher ability to perform.

And there's no question that most of these guys, you, Kirsten, most of these pros are going to have VO2 maxes.

Like my, my Garmin tells me my VO2 max is somewhere in like the 53 to 58 range, which is pretty good for a 58 year old man.

I mean, that, that's wonderful.

Now this is the Garmin protocol developer.

So it's not as accurate as Metabolic cart, I assume if I Did a metabolic cart.

My VO2 max would probably be lower than that.

But the point is that compared to other men my age, my VO2 max is pretty good because I've worked really hard to get it where it is.

You can only move it so much.

There is genetics are going to be involved.

But the way that you influence your VO2 max is improving oxygen delivery.

So better heart rate, better nutrition to maintain your hemoglobin levels so that you can transport oxygen, better respiratory mechanics.

And that's one of the things that Blumenfeld has over some other athletes, right?

You look at his barrel chested sort of physiology, he's got like, probably much bigger lung capacity than a lot of these other people do.

And I wonder if he's not able to bring in more oxygen than.

Yeah, this is me theorizing completely, but just looking at the guy, I remember.

When I first rocked up to a race with him 10 plus years ago and I was like, what is going on?

This guy's got an extra lung in there.

I don't know what it is.

His chest is just built different.

I don't love to, maybe I should be like pointing out people's physiological extremities, but I just.

That was just one thing.

I remember when I first saw this guy, I'm like, wow, this is crazy.

And then he absolutely dusted me on the course.

But he trains very hard.

There's no.

No question, no it.

But all of these little things can add up, right?

And so clearly he's got the genetics.

Clearly he has something going on in his cells.

His mitochondria are genetically superior than most.

His heart has obviously been conditioned to pump as much blood as it does.

And I just wonder if his lungs aren't giving him a bit of an advantage too.

So all of these things together allow him to push at a higher level for a longer amount of time.

And that essentially is VO2 max.

So, yeah, it is a really important number.

Yeah, VO2 max, it's always been a thing, but I feel like lately it's become this kind of big, sexy number.

Longevity wise.

People are calibrating around it.

Is this something people should calibrate their training around, like just improving their VO2 max?

It's a marker, it's a byproduct, it's a marker of your cardiovascular fitness.

And again, there's a ceiling for everybody that is determined by both their genetics, but also their age.

So as you age, your VO2 max ceiling declines.

That's just unfortunately the way it is.

You could try and keep it as high as you can for as long as you can.

But over time there's just no question that, that that's just the physiology of things.

And the more you are active, the more that you push yourself, you are going to see your VO2 Max again.

The Garmin is not, is a poor man substitute, but it's all we have for most of us.

Right.

But if you went and got a metabolic cart, you would see that your VO2 max would be higher for somebody who was in better shape than for someone who wasn't.

But if just.

Is it just.

Should we just give him the Ironman world title now?

He's got the highest.

As the Ironman is not just about the fittest person.

Right.

As we've seen other variables out there that was even pointed out in one of the articles about this is, oh, he's so fit and yet he hasn't even won the Ironman or the 70.3 World Championship.

And I was like, yeah, he's second and third, come on.

Hasn't even won them in the Olympic gold.

Yeah.

As we know, VO2 Max is just one part of it.

And I don't want to diminish the value of other metrics.

Right.

You can have a very high VO2 max but have a very pedestrian FTP.

If you don't put in the work on the bike, you have the capacity to have a much higher FTP if you have a very high VO2 max.

But if you don't put in the work, you're not going to get there.

I don't think for a second that he's putting in the work.

People love having a big.

Just a number to measure.

Right.

Like that.

But then when you get to Kona, obviously issues are things like durability, heat tolerance, like those factors come into play and it reminds me, it just like thinking about all this stuff, it remind me of back in the day, triathlon Canada, when we were doing our standards or whatnot.

Like sometimes at one point I remember they were valuing like a 5k run on the track because they could measure it over like performance on the race course.

And I always thought that was crazy.

Like what are we doing?

Like we do triathlon, we don't do 5k running.

I don't know.

I think people can get caught up in those numbers that they just because they can measure them.

But obviously a lot of other factors come into play on race day.

It is interesting how we, we're athletes and so we're used to performance against a measure and we like to see ourselves perform against competitors.

We like to see ourselves come perform against the clock.

So I understand this fascination with metrics.

It's hard sometimes as a coach to tell people that, yeah, these metrics are important, but they're not the end all, be all.

And that's the part where it breaks down because people can get really rooted on those metrics and really, like, I've seen many athletes who just test very poorly and so they come out of a test with a poor FTP number and that's it.

They're devastated.

They feel like all their training's for not.

And that's.

And I'm like, guys, it's just a number and it's just based on this one test.

Let's not put too much value on it.

But your VO2 max is more of a.

A number that reflects your overall fitness and it's harder to dodge that one.

If you're not training hard, you're not going to have an elevated VO2 max.

If you're training really hard, you will have a higher VO2 max.

But again, there is this ceiling that you're not going to be able to break through.

And let's say you're an athlete or even just if you're thinking about like longevity, you're like, man, I want to improve my VO2 max.

Should you be going out and doing just VO2 max specific workouts or is there more.

It's more subtle than VO2 max workouts.

Just refer to a threshold interval at your VO2 max heart rate.

So it's not.

You're not building like everything else.

Right?

You can't build your FTP by doing all of your workouts at your FTP.

You just can't.

It's not sustainable and you're going to become over fatigued and you just can't do that.

You build your v2 max by actually spending a lot of time in lower zones and just building your endurance potential.

So.

But that's not fun to flex on.

I know, yeah, it's true.

I think we.

I just see all these, like, influencers and they always reference, like the Norwegian workout.

Because it's Norwegian.

That's the branding and it's a kind of V2 max thing.

It's like whatever, like four, four by four minutes or whatnot.

Have you seen this pop around?

I have not.

But I do give my own athletes these pretty intense bike workouts where it's.

Yeah, but you also train your athletes correctly.

Like these people are just telling folks to go out and do a 4x4 all out or whatever.

Without any.

Without any real work.

Like just.

Yeah, go off the couch four by four.

I just influence.

I can't believe influencers do anything.

Just.

I know.

For views.

Crazy.

It's crazy.

It's nuts.

VO2 max.

Anyways, I think really with this number, it is impressive.

If I was competing against him, which I never really competed against him as much, we would start together at the race.

Maybe I would be ahead of him.

Out of the water, he'd be in the same place.

But not necessarily.

Yeah, definitely off the bike.

In the short course races he would say bye, bye.

I would be a little worried.

But as we talked about, it's not the only number that matters.

So October is a long ways away.

We'll say.

Yeah.

And I think any athlete who looks at that and goes, they're not going to look at that and say, oh, why bother?

You're just going to look at that.

Yeah.

They're going to look at that and say, oh my gosh, that's amazing.

I have work to do.

That's.

I would think that sort of.

We will see if Christian's V2 Max plays out as results in the season to come.

We are about six weeks away from the first race of the year taking place in North America.

That'll be oceanside.

Of course.

I think he's scheduled to be there.

Right.

He generally will show up.

He may be doing like the Ironman New Zealand race.

I think that's the first.

Is that the first pro series race or maybe there's.

Yeah, well, South Africa too.

No, South Africa is later.

New Zealand's March and early March and then South Africa I think's in April.

So I feel like the.

I feel like people.

That'll be a great race.

It's early.

If you have a bad race, flat tire, blah, blah, blah, you have more time to try and recoup after that.

So.

Right.

You'll definitely see a lot of people there.

For sure.

We will see.

All right, let's move on to our second topic which is keeping us in the aforementioned New Zealand.

And that has to do with one Hayden Wild who is going to be flexing his bike skills in the New Zealand national.

What is it?

The time trial championship.

He's doing the time trial and the road race.

So both of them.

Wow.

Yeah.

Now I was trying to remember.

And besides George.

God, what's George's last name?

George Bennett.

George Bennett.

I couldn't think of another Kiwi on the world tour.

Yeah, I looked it up.

There's another guy, like the kind of, I would say the headline guy or the.

Maybe he's going to be beaten.

George Bennett is the guy named Finn Fisher Black.

He races for the board.

Oh, yes, that's right.

He's a younger guy and he's really broken onto the scene recently and he is.

He did very well in the Tour down under, actually.

I didn't realize he was a Kiwi.

Right.

So, yeah, I guess he would be a threat potentially.

And I don't know.

Bennett is not a time trialist, though.

No, no, he's not.

He's not.

Sam Gaze, who's a mountain biker, is also, I think, competing in maybe in the road race or maybe in the tt.

So there's another interesting athlete there.

There's a lot of great cyclists there.

It's a great cycling nation for sure.

Now, this is not the selection year.

How he does this year will not.

But it's setting him up to see how he fares and.

And he could then decide next year.

Yeah, I imagine the race, it's probably not big travel for him.

He loves to race, so anything he can do to crack on, I'm sure he's going to take advantage.

But I do think this is a little bit of a test of the waters of an Olympic double because especially with the time trial we saw in Paris, maybe not as safe as we anticipated, the time trial, you're not in a bunch.

It's just you against the clock, less risk.

So if he really wanted to compete in the double, then this time trial is certainly a great opportunity to do that.

I'm super curious.

I'm wondering if maybe by the time we broadcast if the race will have happened.

So if listeners are listening, maybe you know the results.

I don't know.

I'm not an expert on the New Zealand road cycling scene, but Hayden is just such a incredible athlete.

He is an incredible cyclist.

He's been dominating the T100 races the whole year.

Do I think he'll win?

I don't know if he'll win, but I could see him having a really great race and that kind of booing him to probably pursue this path a little bit because it's also just really interesting, especially from a sponsor standpoint.

Like it's just another edge that they can get excited about and want to invest in.

So, yeah, I could see this being a gateway to that campaign.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I think that the issue for him is that triathletes, like pro triathletes, are obviously phenomenally strong cyclists.

But compared to dedicated road cyclists, I think they're not at that level.

Now.

If you are living in a country like New Zealand where the pool is smaller, then you suddenly close that gap quite a bit because, like we said, New Zealand not known for its pro cyclists.

And so he's going to be going up against people that he probably matches up against pretty well as a pro triathlete.

We saw Paula fin, right.

Paula also same kind of situation where she's a very strong cyclist in triathlon and Canada being not a prolific cycling nation, she's able to go in there and beat the rest of the field who is not really that strong.

So again, not to take anything away from Paula.

It's just the reality is that professional cyclists who spend all of their time cycling tend to be better on the bike than a triathlete would.

But where he might go do well, I think, yeah.

Where I think he will maybe catch up a little bit is more on like the aerodynamic aspect because he would have been in the wind tunnel.

Whereas I feel like a lot of maybe like the very top couple guys who are in the World Tour, maybe they've also been in the wind tunnel.

But most of his competition, the big teams, right.

If you look at like Visma, if you look at uae, if you look at these teams, they are spending bank on trying to eke out every single shred of speed.

So I don't doubt for a second that they will match or even exceed what Hayden could do.

Now he's Bora Hansgrove.

So that's a big money team.

That's a big money team.

And I'm trying to remember where, where is Bennett?

I don't remember how he raced for Visma at one point.

At one point he did, but I don't know if he still is.

But anyways, if he's raced with Visma, then he's going to bring that with him.

Right?

For sure.

But only there's like a handful of guys, if that who have been to the wind tunnel.

He's definitely one of them.

He's definitely as optimized as he can be for this time trial.

I, I think that'll help him a little bit.

Do you think he'll be on the podium?

I don't know.

I don't.

I again, I don't know enough about the field, so it's hard to know, but I would have thought that for the time trial more than the road race, like, he's.

I can't.

I don't know how comfortable he would feel in a pack situation.

And if it comes down cyclists, I.

Honestly comes down to a sprint.

Yeah.

He would bring actually an interesting dynamic to that race because he's never going to feature in the sprint, as we've seen against Alex Yee.

Oops, sorry.

I really think with him, he'll be out there.

He will have zero expectations.

He'll be loose.

He'll just be wanting to literally just hurt himself and have a good effort out there.

So he could change his dynamic of the race.

He could have, like, feature in an early breakaway.

So I could actually maybe see him get on the podium in the road race if they can get away.

And who knows?

Because in these breakaways almost never succeed in road races.

But in these.

But this is like a national race, right?

So there's really no like, team aspect unless it's like, there's a lot of local teams.

But yeah, I do think his card to play is definitely just breaking away early, seeing if he knows someone who also wants to do that and having a rip.

Yeah, he's not going to be a sprint guy, but he could definitely increase his odds of podium if he breaks away early.

So we've seen pro cyclists come to triathlon.

The most recent Cam Wurf.

Right.

Is there anybody else you would think about as a triathlete who could do this?

We now have Paula.

We have Hayden.

There are some phenomenal cyclists.

I mean, Lionel Sanders had the Canadian hour record.

Like, these great cyclists.

Like, he's never gone for it, though.

He's never.

He's never done that tt.

Who knows?

Maybe that's something he's planning himself, which would be very interesting.

There's lots of good cyclists out there, but maybe the Europeans are from more cycling centric countries.

So if, I don't know, a Sam laid low, France wanted to jump in the time trial, maybe that wouldn't add up.

But these guys are great cyclists.

They're great athletes.

I actually think cyclists now, especially after what Blumenfeld and them do and seeing them, they actually have more respect for triathletes.

So I think these people wouldn't discount the triathletes if they're on the start line for sure.

As long as they don't show up to the road race with their TT bike, then I think.

Yeah.

Or the helmet.

Or the helmet.

All right, we will have to follow that story.

I will be quite interested to see how Hayden does and I'll be pulling for him.

I like Hayden.

I think he's.

Despite a good character, despite his shoes controversy, I think he's a good guy.

All right, let's turn to our third topic of the program.

And I mentioned shoes.

So we'll just stick with shoes.

We are going to talk about shoe drop.

What is it and how does it affect running?

And is it something you should be thinking about?

When did you.

Do you have.

I guess we can explain like a shoe drop.

It's the difference in height between your heel and your forefoot.

So, you know, a higher shoe drop, it's going to have your heel lifted versus a low shoe drop.

Your heel is going to be neutral with your toes or whatever.

I'm wondering, do you have a preferred drop that you like?

I do not.

I have not ever really paid that much attention to it.

I thought you were going to ask me when did I first learn about it, where I was going to give you.

I do want to know an anecdote.

So this is a good anecdote because you and I, being Canadian, I spent many years of my youth working at Roots and Roots Canadian clothing manufacturer.

They have these great iconic stores and iconic clothes.

They were first known for a shoe that was a negative heel drop shoe.

And so that was the first I'd ever heard of heel drop was that they made this shoe that had a negative drop from toe to heel.

And so it was a.

It was all the rage amongst the granola set back in the 70s when roots came onto the scene.

Anyway, was that for just walking around?

What was that shoe?

Yeah, it was a walking shoe.

Yeah, yeah.

It was supposed to help your Achilles and stuff like that.

Look at shoes like from the 70s earlier or whatever.

Like they're just.

They're just flat and there's no real cushion.

These guys are running pretty good times.

And yeah, minimal cushion shoe, just zero drop.

Yep.

Very impressive.

If you go back to the days.

Tons of controversy about whether or not cushioning was even a good thing or a bad thing.

But that's a whole other story.

You asked me if I have a preferred shoe drop.

I really don't.

I tend to run in hokas which have a shoe drop of around.

I think they're 8 millimeters.

Yeah.

Just naturally.

I've just gravitated to those shoes.

They're very.

I find that they've worked for me and so that's what I run in.

We should say that depending on how much drop you have, it should shifts the way you run.

So a higher shoe drop is going to shift your running towards your heel.

It tends to unload the Achilles.

It tends to put a little more stress.

What's that?

Unload Your calves too, unload the calf and the Achilles.

It tends to put more stress on the knees and it tends to promote a heel strike run simply because the heel is thicker and so there's just no way to avoid it.

Now most of the time we're talking about heel drops of like 10 millimeters or more.

If you're less than 10 millimeters, you're not really going to run into too much of that forced heel strike thing.

The flat shoes, the shoes that have much less heel drop, usually 5 millimeters or less, those tend to promote more of a forefoot strike.

They will load the Achilles and the calf significantly more and relieve weight bearing on the knees.

So depending on the kind of runner you are, you will do well, potentially do better in one kind of shoe than the other.

But for most average runners, a heel drop of between 5 and 10 millimeters seems to be the sort of most comfortable and the one that is more favorable for in the injury profile for most average runners.

Do you think for triathletes in a race specifically like you're coming off the bike, your calves and all your muscles really are more fatigued.

Do you think it would be better to have higher drop shoe in that scenario?

Do you think that matters?

I don't think it really matters.

I think you have to run in what you are comfortable with and you have to run in the shoe that you're used to and so many other elements of equipment.

It's really a shoe is so important.

You have to, we used to, there used to be a lot of thought about, oh, you need the last of the shoe has to stabilize whichever way your foot rolls.

And so if you were a pronator you had to have a stable mid inner last.

And if you were a supinator, you had to have a stronger lateral support on your shoes.

That has fallen out of favor.

It's not nearly, it's not felt to be nearly as important anymore.

Instead, most shoes tend to be stability.

Now they envelop your foot and provide stability both ways.

And so it, the heel drop is, the thing about heel drop is it's not so important how much heel drop you're running on.

It's important that you don't change it dramatically from shoe to shoe.

That's the big thing.

You have to be really careful.

If you're like, I run in the same shoes I've, I run in Cliftons, Hoka Cliftons.

Those are the shoes I run in.

I'm comfortable in them and so when I wear them out, I get a new pair And I run in Cliftons and I know it's the same shoe.

They might change the model a little bit here and there, but they don't change the heel drop from model to model.

If you are running in a HOKA Clifton and you just say, yeah, I don't like these anymore, I'm going to try some ons and you go to a new pair of awns and the heel drop is significantly different.

Without recognizing it, that's where you put yourself at risk of developing injuries because you are making that change too radically.

But haven't we also heard people talk about maybe not just with shoe drop but like having different shoes so your feet are more resilient or more adaptable?

Is that a thing people should care about or should we just run in shoes that are less likely to get us injured and not worry about being.

I think if you have a shoe that works, that's the shoe you should run in.

The only exception being a lot of people will go to a super shoe for races.

I think that's fine.

Right now we know that the carbon plated shoes can be associated with four and mid foot injuries.

And so you don't want to be training in them.

They're so expensive.

You shouldn't be, probably shouldn't be training in them anyways.

But definitely for races, one off marathon or one off half marathon every now and again, that's not going to be a big deal.

And the fact of the matter is most of the super shoes have heel drops that are very similar to training shoes these days anyway.

Yeah.

Eight, eight and above.

I feel like for these race flats, these super shoes, a lot of them.

Because of the amount of foam in there.

Yeah, they're.

Yeah.

And nowadays like with the super shoes, obviously you have a higher heel drop but you also have the higher stack height.

Right.

So like the stack height, that's just like the height from the ground to the base of the shoe, like where your foot sits.

Is that correct?

You're like wearing plat, you're wearing platform shoes basically.

But like your heel drops like that.

So it's already list like when you have a higher heel drop there's a bit more instability obviously just the way your foot is.

But then when you put it on the higher stack height, the higher platform, there's even more instability.

And so that's why you see people.

Yeah.

Like I'm running to trouble a bit.

Especially on undulating terrain with those high super shoes.

A lot of ankle issues and sprained ankles.

Yeah.

So that's something to Consider as well.

I think it's good for people to figure out.

Like for me personally, I wish I had a better idea of these, the shoe drop, the heel drop kind of at a younger age.

Like I feel like once I started really consistently running in kind of that 8 plus, like typically even 10 mil shoe drop, like a lot of my injuries, calf related tibias, posterior, all that kind of stuff just went away.

I think definitely figuring out maybe if there's a stack height that works better for you.

I think that's something to worthy of figuring out for sure.

And this is something that generally you figure out as you're getting into running.

A lot of people will get into running and they won't get good footwear and they start getting things like shin splints or they start getting some issues with Achilles soreness.

And so that's when they start exploring what shoes they should wear.

And I always tell new athletes like don't do that.

Let's spend some time up front thinking, being a little more thoughtful about what shoes we're going to run in and get shoes that make sense for you.

And I think that a lot of good quality running stores will still do a pretty decent job of evaluating runners on a treadmill.

Some of them use cameras to show the athlete what their run form looks like in different kinds of shoes.

I do think that it's worth spending a little bit of time when you go to get your first pair of running shoes.

Plan on spending like an hour to get the right pair of shoes for you.

Because if you can do it right the first time, then you're not going to have to deal with this.

Oh, I, this doesn't work for me.

I need to get another brand and you could ask people what do you like?

But the reality is whatever your friends are using isn't necessarily what's going to work well for you.

And there are so many good quality running shoes out there right now that you can you, you will find something that works for you without a doubt, hopefully without too much experimentation.

So do you think an athlete, you're coaching an athlete and they consistently were coming to you with like knee issues related to running.

Could that be a situation where you tell them to get into a lower stack or a lower heel drop?

Generally a higher one.

Sorry, yes, a lower one, Lower one unweights, the knee.

Yeah, I mean it depends, right?

It depends on what the issue is.

I'd want to look at their gait.

A lot of runners are heavy runners.

If you're heel striking that can Sometimes cause knee issues.

Sometimes they just don't have the strength and they haven't built up that.

A lot of people have chondromalacia, which is that inflammation at the underneath the patella.

And that has nothing to do with the shoes you're running on.

It has to do with weakness through the quadriceps and through the tendon to the tibia.

So sometimes it's just a matter of getting some strength work.

So it really depends.

I wouldn't immediately rush to changing the shoe.

I think the two things that would make me think about needing to change the shoe is Achilles and plantar fascia.

Those two things suggest to me that there's something going on with the shoes and that you need to consider a change.

Hopefully you get plantar fascia early because once it's established, it's a bear to overcome.

But if you can, at the first sign of any kind of heel discomfort, shut down the running, switch shoes, try again, and then hopefully you can get.

Nip that in the bud.

Yeah, no heel drop.

Important.

It makes me think of.

Did you ever.

Did you get caught up in re.

Did you read Born to Run?

Remember when that whole thing.

God, we talked about it on the tridarc podcast.

We talked about the fallacy of the barefoot running and the.

The exuberance with which that author was making.

Those were a fad for about a minute.

No, I mean, I feel like that kind of had a bit of staying power.

Remember Vibrams, the five fingers?

I remember them very well.

Did you ever have a pair?

Absolutely not.

No, you weren't.

You didn't get caught up, eh?

No, listen, the premise.

We love the idea of it.

The premise is not wrong.

There are people who.

There are these tribes.

They have spent their whole life from birth running barefoot, and so they have really good form and they don't get injured.

We are not that.

You cannot take somebody who grew up wearing shoes and then throw them into these minimalist things and expect them to do okay.

They will not.

And so it wasn't that surprising that after a year or two of this minimalist sort of shoe fad, all of the foot injuries and ankle injuries that came out of it, the shoot, the minimalist thing went away.

Because to be a physio, it was.

Oh, it was boom times.

Yeah, Boom times for podiatrists, to be sure.

Yeah.

It was just.

We love the idea.

We all want to run naturally.

Of course we want to run naturally.

We want to be free.

It happens to a lot of these fallacies that a lot of these wellness influencers like to pedal.

And one of them is, if it is.

If it hearkens back to olden times, it must be better.

Yeah.

And this is one of those things, hey, we weren't designed to run in these running shoes.

And I'm like, yeah, we also weren't designed to run on concrete.

So, you know, you have to adapt.

Yeah.

I feel like at that same time, too, where you had the rise of the minimalism, you also had the paleo phase.

Like, I feel like those kind of happened.

It was like a caveman phase.

For a hot minute.

Everybody wanted to do caveman stuff.

You want to run like a caveman, you want to eat like a caveman?

I don't know.

I remember my.

My girlfriend at the time was doing the paleo for a hot second, and I tried it and I did it for a day, and then I think I hit McDonald's afterwards.

I couldn't do it.

Wasn't a keto guy.

Never could be a keto paleo guy.

But I just remember that it was like a caveman era.

It was hilarious.

I'm sure we'll have more.

More of those.

Oh, we.

Everything that's old is new again, so it's only a matter of time.

All right.

We have covered a broad range of topics yet again on this episode of tempo talks.

It's always fun.

I hope, we hope that you have enjoyed listening to us banter about this incredibly broad range from.

We've got you covered from your feet all the way up.

Hopefully this has been entertaining for you.

And if so, we hope that you'll leave us a rating and a review wherever you download the show.

Please do go ahead and join the talk Tempo talks Facebook group or you can leave comments and questions.

And we would be so thrilled to engage in the conversation with you there, Matt.

It's been a good talk.

I look forward to chatting with you again next week when we will have a whole new slate of things to do discuss, including hopefully how Hayden wild did in New Zealand.

Yes.

And I will be releasing my V2 max number, which hopefully will be just as impressive.

I already teased mine, the Garmin version, so, you know, I got nothing else to hide.

Yeah.

Maybe I should do a test or something.

It makes me want to see what mine is, but probably won't be releasing that.

But hope you have a great swim, bike, gym, weekend, Jeff.

All right.

Enjoy it.

Thanks.

Talk to you later.

Man Y by.

Tempo talks is a production of the triathlon performance hub and is produced and edited by Jeff Sankoff the music heard at the beginning and end of the program is Rock by Henry Greger and is used under a Creative Commons license.

Matt and Jeff will be back again next week with another episode, but until then, we hope that you will join us on the Talk Tempo Talks private Facebook Facebook group so that you can leave comments and questions about anything you heard today or anything you hope to hear in the future.