Episode 11 with Frederick Dudek (Freddy D)

Unlocking Business Growth: Legal Tips with Attorney Megan Porth

In this podcast episode, Megan Porth, the founder and managing attorney at Your Contract Shop, shares her journey from lobbyist to lawyer, driven by a desire to protect veterans and a passion for contracts and business law. She and the host discuss the critical role of contracts in fostering happy clients and brand loyalty, and Megan’s unique billing practices that prioritize transparency and client relationships. She advocates for frequent billing notices to empower clients in managing their legal expenses. Megan also offers virtual legal services, emphasizing her commitment to transparency by posting her rates online and providing a free 30-minute consultation. The host commends Megan’s positive impact on his business and others, highlighting her expertise in contractual and business legal matters.

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Freddy D: 00:00:00

Megan is a founder and managing attorney at Your Contract Shop.

Freddy D: 00:00:03

Her passion is helping businesses grow, inspired her to go to law school,

Freddy D: 00:00:07

where she graduated with honors.

Freddy D: 00:00:09

Additionally, she interned with the Veterans Court at the Maricopa

Freddy D: 00:00:12

County Superior Court in Phoenix and the Institute for Justice in Tempe.

Freddy D: 00:00:17

Prior to law school, Megan worked as the business manager for a

Freddy D: 00:00:20

software development company, the deputy director for the statewide

Freddy D: 00:00:23

initiative, and lobbyist at the Arizona Department of Veterans Service.

Freddy D: 00:00:27

After law school, Megan worked for a few small boutique firms in Phoenix that

Freddy D: 00:00:31

focus on business law, including entity formation, medical marijuana, mediation,

Freddy D: 00:00:36

litigation, licensing, and securities.

Freddy D: 00:00:39

During her time with these firms, she successfully drafted motions

Freddy D: 00:00:42

that secured unprecedented and celebrated victories for her clients

Freddy D: 00:00:46

in the medical marijuana industry.

Freddy D: 00:00:48

Hello, Megan, welcome to the show.

Megan Porth: 00:00:50

Hello.

Megan Porth: 00:00:51

Thanks for having me today.

Freddy D: 00:00:53

so how'd you, what made you become a lawyer?

Megan Porth: 00:00:56

Yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:00:56

My family asked me this question almost on a daily basis.

Megan Porth: 00:00:59

Why are we here?

Megan Porth: 00:01:01

And it is interesting because I come from a family of entrepreneurs actually.

Megan Porth: 00:01:05

I'm the first person in my family to go to college.

Megan Porth: 00:01:08

I'm the only person to get their graduate degree.

Megan Porth: 00:01:10

Because what we do in our family is we start businesses.

Megan Porth: 00:01:13

That's what we do.

Megan Porth: 00:01:14

So when I decided to go to law school, my family kept going, why?

Megan Porth: 00:01:18

What are you doing this for?

Megan Porth: 00:01:19

And it really was inspired during my work as a lobbyist with the Arizona

Megan Porth: 00:01:24

Department of Veteran Services.

Megan Porth: 00:01:26

So I was a legislative liaison.

Megan Porth: 00:01:28

I was hired on very early in my career.

Megan Porth: 00:01:31

I was in my early twenties.

Megan Porth: 00:01:32

I had no idea how that job even I got that job that young.

Megan Porth: 00:01:36

And what I was doing is I was dealing with the legislature quite

Megan Porth: 00:01:39

often in that particular capacity.

Megan Porth: 00:01:42

I was working as a lobbyist on behalf of Arizona Veterans, and I just got so

Megan Porth: 00:01:48

frustrated with their lack of movement and the double speak and telling me something

Megan Porth: 00:01:54

was going to happen and then it never did.

Megan Porth: 00:01:55

And gaslighting and all the things that happened that I

Megan Porth: 00:01:58

finally said, you know what?

Megan Porth: 00:01:59

That's okay.

Megan Porth: 00:01:59

I'm just gonna go to law school so I can sue you all.

Megan Porth: 00:02:03

We can protect these veterans the way that we're supposed to.

Megan Porth: 00:02:06

And what was funny is, although my advocacy on behalf of veterans

Megan Porth: 00:02:11

in the state is what got me to law school, what kind of pushed

Megan Porth: 00:02:16

me towards back to my roots.

Megan Porth: 00:02:18

I.

Megan Porth: 00:02:18

Really?

Megan Porth: 00:02:19

Was essentially the the work that I was able to do while I was in law school.

Megan Porth: 00:02:23

I took a contracts class and I loved it.

Megan Porth: 00:02:27

I thought it was so cool.

Megan Porth: 00:02:28

It was like a big old puzzle to solve, and I really also got to see,

Megan Porth: 00:02:32

because of my history growing up with entrepreneurship, I got to see, oh, okay,

Megan Porth: 00:02:36

this is what it looks like on the other side when you're drafting the contracts.

Megan Porth: 00:02:40

And to see how impactful and how important they could possibly be.

Megan Porth: 00:02:43

Although I, yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:02:45

So although I started with a a bent towards advocacy, I found that where

Megan Porth: 00:02:50

I really wanted to spend my days, what the, what I had the most fun

Megan Porth: 00:02:53

doing was helping small to medium sized businesses realize their dreams.

Megan Porth: 00:02:57

That was really what I wanted to do.

Freddy D: 00:02:59

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:02:59

My, My friend from second grade , He went to George Washington Law School

Freddy D: 00:03:04

and he ended up , being a contracts guy.

Freddy D: 00:03:07

Exactly.

Freddy D: 00:03:08

And he loves the contracts.

Freddy D: 00:03:10

He worked for years in Minnesota at Wells Fargo in the

Freddy D: 00:03:15

contracts department with big.

Freddy D: 00:03:17

Business acquisitions and investments and all that kind of stuff.

Freddy D: 00:03:21

And that just, he just loves all that paperwork and all

Freddy D: 00:03:24

the structuring of things.

Freddy D: 00:03:26

He's a master writer still today.

Freddy D: 00:03:28

When he posts his stuff on Facebook, his writing is just impeccable.

Freddy D: 00:03:32

I just don't, he's got a gift for that stuff,

Megan Porth: 00:03:34

yeah, contracts can be fun.

Megan Porth: 00:03:36

Obviously it takes a certain personality type.

Megan Porth: 00:03:39

I guess maybe not.

Megan Porth: 00:03:41

I, the contracts attorneys that I need, they're, we're all different.

Megan Porth: 00:03:44

But I think the reason why I love it so much is because it's.

Megan Porth: 00:03:49

iT, it does more than just, in fact, actually, ironically, your contracts

Megan Porth: 00:03:54

will be used 99% of the time they will be used outside of a court of law.

Megan Porth: 00:03:59

So what was really fun about it is that you got to develop BA

Megan Porth: 00:04:03

boundaries, which I think helps create.

Megan Porth: 00:04:05

Brand loyalty and customer loyalty by the way.

Megan Porth: 00:04:07

'cause you're managing those expectations.

Megan Porth: 00:04:09

But it also shows you a level of professionalism and and it's a puzzle.

Megan Porth: 00:04:14

That's why we like it.

Megan Porth: 00:04:15

They're puzzles, that's all they are.

Megan Porth: 00:04:17

We gotta figure em out'

Freddy D: 00:04:18

Sure.

Freddy D: 00:04:19

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:04:19

And I have a, I always say, that, contracts, nobody

Freddy D: 00:04:23

cares about the contract.

Freddy D: 00:04:24

They sign it.

Freddy D: 00:04:24

A lot of people don't read it.

Freddy D: 00:04:26

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:04:26

They just sign it and it's good.

Freddy D: 00:04:28

And if business is well, nobody cares about the contract.

Freddy D: 00:04:31

I.

Freddy D: 00:04:32

And then the left hand turn comes in, a speed bump happens.

Freddy D: 00:04:35

Something goes an issue, and everybody grabs the paperwork

Freddy D: 00:04:39

and, okay, what's going on here?

Freddy D: 00:04:40

And that's the importance of this is where I think the value of having a good

Freddy D: 00:04:45

contracts attorney becomes imperative, because that's when the difference.

Freddy D: 00:04:51

Is the verbiage in the contract, how it's positioned, how it's

Freddy D: 00:04:54

worded, can make a difference.

Freddy D: 00:04:56

And a lot of cases, that's where a super fan of the business that has a

Freddy D: 00:05:01

contract done by a good contract lawyer.

Freddy D: 00:05:04

They're they become a super fan of that lawyer because it saves them

Freddy D: 00:05:08

a lot of potential headaches and heartaches and financial stuff and

Freddy D: 00:05:13

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Megan Porth: 00:05:14

And a lot of the work that I do when I'm drafting an

Megan Porth: 00:05:17

agreement, Is talking to the clients.

Megan Porth: 00:05:22

And maybe this is where I'm lucky in that I'm a second career attorney.

Megan Porth: 00:05:25

'cause I was in sales, I was a lobbyist.

Megan Porth: 00:05:28

It, pretty much every job I've ever had has been some form

Megan Porth: 00:05:31

of persuasive communication.

Megan Porth: 00:05:34

And one of the things that I, I.

Megan Porth: 00:05:37

I am able to illuminate to my clients is that these contracts are actually, you

Megan Porth: 00:05:43

shouldn't sign them and put them away.

Megan Porth: 00:05:45

They're there to govern our relationship and they're there

Megan Porth: 00:05:47

to manage the expectations.

Megan Porth: 00:05:49

So you are right because there's so much mis there's so many

Megan Porth: 00:05:53

misunderstandings around contract law and the terms and there is language

Megan Porth: 00:05:56

that is extremely intimidating.

Megan Porth: 00:05:58

There's not a, a layman on the planet.

Megan Porth: 00:06:01

Who's running around talking about indemnification provisions

Megan Porth: 00:06:04

in casual conversation.

Megan Porth: 00:06:05

It's just, it doesn't happen.

Megan Porth: 00:06:07

So because of that, I think a lot of times people will sign the contract and put

Megan Porth: 00:06:11

it away, but the truth is that contract is just a another form of communication.

Megan Porth: 00:06:15

Another way to manage your client's expectations, and when your

Megan Porth: 00:06:19

client's expectations are managed, this is what I learned in sales.

Megan Porth: 00:06:23

They are happier and ironically, less litigious.

Megan Porth: 00:06:27

So the same.

Megan Porth: 00:06:28

Absolutely correct.

Megan Porth: 00:06:28

Yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:06:28

So the same concepts that apply to managing your sales staff can

Megan Porth: 00:06:33

actually apply to risk mitigation too.

Megan Porth: 00:06:35

Taking good care of your customers, managing their expectations, putting

Megan Porth: 00:06:40

everything in writing, ensuring that they understand what you are or are

Megan Porth: 00:06:44

not doing for them, and then making sure that there's, that they understand

Megan Porth: 00:06:49

the terms, in particular, the payment and delivery of whatever services or

Megan Porth: 00:06:53

products you're going to give them.

Megan Porth: 00:06:55

All of that.

Megan Porth: 00:06:56

Creates happy clients every time and

Freddy D: 00:06:59

happy clients become business super fans.

Freddy D: 00:07:02

Exactly.

Freddy D: 00:07:03

They'll go out and promote and says, this company not only delivered

Freddy D: 00:07:07

says or does what they say they're going to do and deliver what they

Freddy D: 00:07:10

say they're going to deliver.

Freddy D: 00:07:12

They do it timely, they do it efficiently, and you know that, that is huge for a

Freddy D: 00:07:18

business to, and 'cause a lot of times.

Freddy D: 00:07:22

Things fall apart because businesses don't deliver what they

Freddy D: 00:07:27

said they're going to deliver.

Megan Porth: 00:07:29

And there's a huge disconnect.

Megan Porth: 00:07:30

As far as contract law, and there can be a disconnect between the individual who's

Megan Porth: 00:07:35

doing the sales and the person who is actually implementing the service or the

Megan Porth: 00:07:38

product, that's another thing that I see.

Megan Porth: 00:07:40

So my rule in case you're wondering what a rule for contract law is

Megan Porth: 00:07:44

to under promise in your contracts and then over deliver Absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:07:49

Your services and what that does.

Megan Porth: 00:07:52

Psychologically for the end user, for your client is it allows them to

Megan Porth: 00:07:57

not only understand and budget for what you are going to be providing.

Megan Porth: 00:08:00

'cause a lot of times what happens is we will say something.

Megan Porth: 00:08:03

Let's say I'm building a website.

Megan Porth: 00:08:05

I may say I'm going to build you a full website.

Megan Porth: 00:08:08

But I'm taking for granted that you don't know what that actually entails, right?

Megan Porth: 00:08:13

So maybe you don't know that I'm not gonna host the website for you.

Megan Porth: 00:08:17

The end user may say, oh, this is a great deal.

Megan Porth: 00:08:20

This is only $5,000.

Megan Porth: 00:08:21

I'm going to go ahead and hire them.

Megan Porth: 00:08:23

And they don't have enough money for the hosting.

Megan Porth: 00:08:25

They didn't build that into their budget.

Megan Porth: 00:08:27

Correct.

Megan Porth: 00:08:27

So by, by allowing, it allows them to build that into their budget

Megan Porth: 00:08:31

to really understand what they're going to need to do on their end.

Megan Porth: 00:08:34

But also at the same time, if you bonus them anything.

Megan Porth: 00:08:38

Then you look like a great guy.

Megan Porth: 00:08:40

And this is what I usually talk to my clients about.

Megan Porth: 00:08:42

They say, oh, and we'll, we may do this, we may do that.

Megan Porth: 00:08:45

Any of the maze, leave them out of the contract.

Megan Porth: 00:08:48

Absolutely leave them out of the sales pitch and surprise your

Megan Porth: 00:08:52

client with this great bonus.

Megan Porth: 00:08:54

Because what will happen is whatever is listed in the contract, I want

Megan Porth: 00:08:58

you to know, just like you said, in it, once those things go sideways

Megan Porth: 00:09:01

or at any point if they have a question, whatever is in the contract.

Megan Porth: 00:09:05

In their mind, they've paid for it.

Megan Porth: 00:09:07

Oh, absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:09:08

Absolutely correct.

Megan Porth: 00:09:08

So there's no extras.

Freddy D: 00:09:10

Right?

Freddy D: 00:09:10

And you make a great point about, doing, tossing that stuff in my book,

Freddy D: 00:09:14

creating Business Superfan, one of my chapter is the Unexpected Extra.

Freddy D: 00:09:18

aNd that's the really, the importance is, that's how you start creating super

Freddy D: 00:09:23

fans is, here's the expectation and here's the contractual expectation.

Freddy D: 00:09:28

And oh, by the way, In an unexpected way.

Freddy D: 00:09:31

Here's, I'm gonna give you this, and here's this is, I'm gonna toss

Freddy D: 00:09:35

this in, so stick it to the website.

Freddy D: 00:09:37

We're gonna get you listed into the different local directories and we're

Freddy D: 00:09:40

gonna include that as part of the package.

Freddy D: 00:09:42

No extra fee, because, we think it's gonna help grow your business.

Freddy D: 00:09:46

And our job is to grow your business.

Freddy D: 00:09:48

That customer is gonna go, wow, these guys are great.

Freddy D: 00:09:51

And it's, and by the way they're not obligated.

Freddy D: 00:09:53

It's not in the paperwork here.

Freddy D: 00:09:54

So this is really an unexpected extra, which is like what you mentioned.

Freddy D: 00:09:58

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:09:58

And that's a simple way to create a super fan from, going above and beyond

Freddy D: 00:10:04

what the contractual agreement says.

Megan Porth: 00:10:06

No, that's a, that's exactly the whole point.

Megan Porth: 00:10:09

And I love that you talk about that, that you called it the unexpected extra.

Megan Porth: 00:10:12

Yep.

Megan Porth: 00:10:13

And it, that I've always, that's exactly what it is.

Megan Porth: 00:10:15

I'm bonusing this to you.

Megan Porth: 00:10:17

I don't have to do it, but I'm a real good guy and I think that.

Megan Porth: 00:10:22

That simple practice of not putting every single thing that you are

Megan Porth: 00:10:28

going to do, what you have to do needs to be in the contract.

Megan Porth: 00:10:30

But what you could possibly do should not, because for one,

Megan Porth: 00:10:34

you may not have the capacity.

Megan Porth: 00:10:35

We can't predict the future.

Megan Porth: 00:10:36

But also, like you said, you create superfan when you say, listen,

Megan Porth: 00:10:40

I know it's not in the contract.

Megan Porth: 00:10:42

But we really feel that this would be helpful and for no extra fee,

Megan Porth: 00:10:46

we're gonna do this extra thing.

Megan Porth: 00:10:47

Oh man, do people love you for that

Freddy D: 00:10:49

kind of stuff?

Freddy D: 00:10:50

Oh, it's, they're gonna tell and they're, now, you just create a super fan.

Freddy D: 00:10:53

It's gonna tell all their business owners Yes.

Freddy D: 00:10:56

That that the, this company did this and did that extra, and all that stuff.

Freddy D: 00:11:01

And it, it's huge.

Freddy D: 00:11:02

Yes,

Megan Porth: 00:11:03

absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:11:04

Va the value added is, Like I said, not only does it create a business

Megan Porth: 00:11:10

super fan, it actually can help you in reducing your liability.

Megan Porth: 00:11:15

A happy client is willing to work with you, work through an unexpected or

Megan Porth: 00:11:20

even unexpected and negligent outcome.

Megan Porth: 00:11:23

Yep.

Megan Porth: 00:11:24

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:11:24

Because they're gonna be more, You have a super fan or it may

Freddy D: 00:11:28

not yet be a super fan, but the, you have an issue that comes up and and it's

Freddy D: 00:11:34

a contractual issue and you're having a time an issue delivering it, okay?

Freddy D: 00:11:38

Life happens.

Freddy D: 00:11:39

Yep.

Freddy D: 00:11:40

But you keep that customer informed and engaged.

Freddy D: 00:11:42

And that's what a lot of people do is they say you know what?

Freddy D: 00:11:45

I didn't hear nothing.

Freddy D: 00:11:45

I'm not gonna call 'em.

Freddy D: 00:11:46

I'm not gonna do anything.

Freddy D: 00:11:47

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:11:47

I'm just gonna hope that they won't notice.

Freddy D: 00:11:50

And instead, the opposite way I think is, call 'em up and Hey look, we got this,

Freddy D: 00:11:54

Megan, we got this particular issue.

Freddy D: 00:11:56

I know we're obligated to provide it.

Freddy D: 00:11:58

Here's what's happening.

Freddy D: 00:11:59

Let me know.

Freddy D: 00:12:00

We're working on it and all that stuff.

Freddy D: 00:12:01

You're gonna go, okay.

Freddy D: 00:12:02

I understand that I appreciate the phone call and let me know what I can do to

Freddy D: 00:12:07

help to get this thing logjam worked out, worked through, and once you do you get

Freddy D: 00:12:13

through it, you'll most likely convert them into a super fan because of the

Freddy D: 00:12:18

fact that not only were you transparent about the problem, you resolved it,

Freddy D: 00:12:23

and now they're gonna go, man, this guy, this company's got integrity.

Freddy D: 00:12:26

They're good people.

Freddy D: 00:12:27

We like these people.

Freddy D: 00:12:29

And just like you said it changes the dynamics.

Megan Porth: 00:12:32

Yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:12:33

And ironically, sometimes those points of conflict are those opportunities

Megan Porth: 00:12:39

to take a client who's just a basic client and turn them into a super fan.

Megan Porth: 00:12:44

Absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:12:44

The way that you handle that situation, if you handle it well

Megan Porth: 00:12:48

and you take good care of them.

Megan Porth: 00:12:50

They will stick with you for life.

Megan Porth: 00:12:53

And that's where I think you're right, and we all fall into this.

Megan Porth: 00:12:55

I fall into this where it's oh gosh, I just don't wanna face this situation.

Megan Porth: 00:13:00

I don't wanna really address it.

Megan Porth: 00:13:02

I'm embarrassed.

Megan Porth: 00:13:03

We live in a culture where I.

Megan Porth: 00:13:04

Producing.

Megan Porth: 00:13:05

We are high producers, right?

Megan Porth: 00:13:07

And so mistakes aren't really or not producing at the level that you think

Megan Porth: 00:13:11

you should is really difficult on us.

Megan Porth: 00:13:12

But you're right, ironically, by being able to address it and address it in a

Megan Porth: 00:13:17

way that is very client conscious, right?

Megan Porth: 00:13:20

We'll take that normal, average, everyday client who's yeah, they're okay.

Megan Porth: 00:13:23

They're great.

Megan Porth: 00:13:24

Or they're okay.

Megan Porth: 00:13:24

They're doing the job.

Megan Porth: 00:13:25

Two, they are great.

Megan Porth: 00:13:27

I love them.

Megan Porth: 00:13:27

We had an issue and the way that they resolved it was beautifully done.

Megan Porth: 00:13:30

So it's weird the way that business works that way.

Megan Porth: 00:13:33

Sometimes those conflicts actually give birth to these wonderful

Megan Porth: 00:13:37

career long relationships.

Megan Porth: 00:13:39

I.

Megan Porth: 00:13:39

Right.

Megan Porth: 00:13:39

Where

Freddy D: 00:13:40

if you had a horrible relationship with

Freddy D: 00:13:41

that customer, it could go.

Freddy D: 00:13:43

Now the, all of a sudden the knives come out the lawyers

Freddy D: 00:13:46

get involved and it's a mess.

Freddy D: 00:13:48

And at the end of the day, really nobody wins.

Megan Porth: 00:13:51

No one ever wins when there's a messy contract.

Megan Porth: 00:13:53

And that's what I try to tell everyone.

Megan Porth: 00:13:55

No one really ever wins in a lawsuit either.

Megan Porth: 00:13:58

'cause even when you do win, you've you and you get all

Megan Porth: 00:14:01

of your attorney's fees back.

Megan Porth: 00:14:02

You don't get those years and that stress of your life back.

Megan Porth: 00:14:05

So it really does help to have to create that loyalty within your client

Megan Porth: 00:14:10

base by treating them really well.

Megan Porth: 00:14:11

And honestly, the contract is the first step.

Megan Porth: 00:14:14

Maybe your proposal is your first step, but in actually

Megan Porth: 00:14:18

having your engaged customer and someone who is working for you.

Megan Porth: 00:14:21

That contract creates a super fan in that it manages their expectations.

Megan Porth: 00:14:26

It also allows you to bonus them any of your extras.

Megan Porth: 00:14:29

It allows you for a dispute resolution process.

Megan Porth: 00:14:32

But here's the other thing I tell everyone.

Megan Porth: 00:14:34

Boundaries within a relationship, no matter what it, what relationship it

Megan Porth: 00:14:38

is, makes the other party feel safe.

Megan Porth: 00:14:41

And that's the other aspect of contract law that I really love when I get

Megan Porth: 00:14:46

a contract and I know exactly what this vendor is doing for me, and I

Megan Porth: 00:14:50

know exactly how much I'm paying.

Megan Porth: 00:14:51

And even Freddy, when they say to me, oh, I'm not doing this a long list.

Megan Porth: 00:14:55

We're not doing all of these things right.

Megan Porth: 00:14:57

I chuckle at it, but I also feel very safe.

Megan Porth: 00:15:01

I know what I'm getting into.

Megan Porth: 00:15:02

I know that this person isn't going to come out with some random charge.

Megan Porth: 00:15:07

Either from them or a third party that I wasn't anticipating because

Megan Porth: 00:15:11

I don't know their business.

Megan Porth: 00:15:12

I have no idea how to do what they're doing.

Freddy D: 00:15:14

Yeah, no, absolutely correct.

Freddy D: 00:15:16

So how can, lawyers in general build super fans of their existing clients

Freddy D: 00:15:25

and get out of the transactional mindset and more into the relationship

Megan Porth: 00:15:29

mindset.

Megan Porth: 00:15:30

Yeah, this is a really hard one.

Megan Porth: 00:15:31

I practice a little differently.

Megan Porth: 00:15:33

I offer flat rate billing and limited scope representation.

Megan Porth: 00:15:36

You'll hire me to review or draft or negotiate a contract or to form your L C.

Megan Porth: 00:15:41

But I'm not on retainer like, like other attorneys are.

Megan Porth: 00:15:44

So because of that fact I think my mindset, even the mental

Megan Porth: 00:15:49

paradigm has shifted a little bit.

Megan Porth: 00:15:50

So for, for me it's, I.

Megan Porth: 00:15:54

Because I'm not billing by the tenths of an hour like a normal attorney does.

Megan Porth: 00:15:59

One of the things that I'm able to do is to actually take calls from

Megan Porth: 00:16:03

clients and not charge them, for little questions that they're asking me.

Megan Porth: 00:16:08

Hey Megan, I know you drafted this contract but somebody wants

Megan Porth: 00:16:11

to change the indemnification provision and take this out.

Megan Porth: 00:16:14

Is that okay?

Megan Porth: 00:16:15

And I'll write them back and I'll say something like, yeah, it's okay.

Megan Porth: 00:16:18

Or No, push back on this one for these reasons.

Megan Porth: 00:16:21

So traditionally, if I were billing by the hour, I would send them an

Megan Porth: 00:16:25

invoice for my six to 15 minute call.

Megan Porth: 00:16:28

And and you feel that every time I don't do those types of things so that the

Megan Porth: 00:16:33

client feels comfortable calling me.

Megan Porth: 00:16:35

'cause what ends up happening, I.

Megan Porth: 00:16:37

And this was a little experiment when I first started practicing law

Megan Porth: 00:16:39

to see if maybe if there would be such a deficit by doing this right.

Megan Porth: 00:16:44

Offering, just taking calls, offering free consultations and things like that.

Megan Porth: 00:16:48

But what ends up happening is they always come back and

Megan Porth: 00:16:52

they's always send their friend

Freddy D: 00:16:53

You've created a super fan because, you bring up a so spot for

Freddy D: 00:16:57

me , a long time ago is about 20 years ago I was involved in a legal matter.

Freddy D: 00:17:04

A divorce and the lawyer was charging me 15 minute per phone call.

Freddy D: 00:17:10

And

Megan Porth: 00:17:11

whether you were on for 15 minutes or not, exactly.

Freddy D: 00:17:13

And that was the part that really became annoying.

Freddy D: 00:17:15

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:17:15

Because it'd be like a two minute phone call and I'd, and he'd be like, okay.

Freddy D: 00:17:19

And he says, all right we're all done here.

Freddy D: 00:17:20

And wait a minute, I got more questions.

Freddy D: 00:17:22

I'm looking at my clock on.

Freddy D: 00:17:24

Yeah, wait a minute.

Freddy D: 00:17:24

You're just making four 13 minutes or free money.

Freddy D: 00:17:28

And I got more questions and it was like, and it just felt.

Freddy D: 00:17:32

Weird.

Freddy D: 00:17:33

And I was unappreciative of that because now I felt like I was not being treated

Freddy D: 00:17:38

properly and it was, I was felt rushed and

Megan Porth: 00:17:42

yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:17:42

And taken advantage of.

Megan Porth: 00:17:44

And that you didn't get the money.

Megan Porth: 00:17:45

'cause this is what I have found, and this is go again,

Megan Porth: 00:17:47

goes back to my sales background.

Megan Porth: 00:17:50

If people feel like they are not getting their money's worth, They will not

Megan Porth: 00:17:55

continue coming back to you, and they will not give you leeway if you don't produce.

Megan Porth: 00:18:00

So again, you have the loyalty and the litigation or the liability side of it.

Megan Porth: 00:18:04

Neither one of those are satisfied when people feel like they did

Megan Porth: 00:18:08

not get what they paid for.

Megan Porth: 00:18:10

So the practice of law, the way that we, and I understand you for instance,

Megan Porth: 00:18:15

for litigators, it's really almost impossible to do flat rate billing, right?

Megan Porth: 00:18:20

Oh, sure.

Megan Porth: 00:18:20

You

Freddy D: 00:18:20

don't know how that's.

Freddy D: 00:18:22

But don't, but don't do this 15 minute phone call.

Freddy D: 00:18:24

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:18:24

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:18:25

I have no problem.

Freddy D: 00:18:26

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:18:26

If, okay you're at the courthouse or you're preparing the paperwork

Freddy D: 00:18:29

and all that stuff, that's fine.

Freddy D: 00:18:32

But don't nickel me and dime me on a phone call and cut it down to, two

Freddy D: 00:18:35

and a half minutes and bill me for 15.

Freddy D: 00:18:38

Absolutely.

Freddy D: 00:18:38

That's where I go.

Freddy D: 00:18:39

Okay.

Freddy D: 00:18:40

Timeout.

Freddy D: 00:18:41

That, that, that's not

Megan Porth: 00:18:42

right.

Megan Porth: 00:18:43

Yeah, no, I agree with you.

Megan Porth: 00:18:44

It feels very unfair and exploitative.

Megan Porth: 00:18:47

So I think that would be, obviously anywhere that you can provide

Megan Porth: 00:18:51

value added to your clients where you're not, where you're looking

Megan Porth: 00:18:55

at it more in a client driven way.

Megan Porth: 00:18:57

And like I said, this is a balance.

Megan Porth: 00:18:59

It's an art.

Megan Porth: 00:18:59

It's not there's sure.

Megan Porth: 00:19:01

Totally agree.

Megan Porth: 00:19:01

There's no hard, fast rules.

Megan Porth: 00:19:02

So you wanna make sure, of course, that you're not giving all of

Megan Porth: 00:19:05

your time away 'cause that's all you have to sell as a lawyer.

Megan Porth: 00:19:07

But also that you're being cognizant of, hey, they asked me a couple of

Megan Porth: 00:19:11

questions, it took me two minutes.

Megan Porth: 00:19:13

I'm not gonna necessarily charge them for that unless of course they

Megan Porth: 00:19:16

continue, calling me and they're all two minute calls and I have, an

Megan Porth: 00:19:19

hour and a half of two minute calls.

Megan Porth: 00:19:21

The other thing that I think lawyers could benefit from greatly, In managing

Megan Porth: 00:19:27

a client's expectation, and I know that this sounds weird, but I think that they

Megan Porth: 00:19:32

should bill their clients more often.

Megan Porth: 00:19:34

So the traditional model is you give an attorney.

Megan Porth: 00:19:38

Retention fee.

Megan Porth: 00:19:39

Let's say it's $5,000, and then for all the work that's done, that

Megan Porth: 00:19:44

attorney charges against that.

Megan Porth: 00:19:46

And then they send you an invoice.

Megan Porth: 00:19:48

They say, okay, last month I spent $1,500 of your $5,000 retainer.

Megan Porth: 00:19:54

I, what I have heard from most of my clients who are dissatisfied

Megan Porth: 00:19:59

is that especially the first month that they retain the lawyer,

Megan Porth: 00:20:04

They didn't get the bill until 30 days after all the work was done.

Megan Porth: 00:20:08

They didn't they weren't placing it.

Megan Porth: 00:20:09

They don't, firstly, if you're involved in any form of litigation and

Megan Porth: 00:20:13

you're dealing with a lawyer, let's be honest, you're, you have other

Megan Porth: 00:20:15

things you're dealing with, right?

Megan Porth: 00:20:17

So you're not thinking about how many times did I call my lawyer today?

Megan Porth: 00:20:20

So I feel like if lawyers are billing, or at least reconciling

Megan Porth: 00:20:24

the account more often, let's say maximum 14 days, but ideally every

Megan Porth: 00:20:29

week, sending out a notice, Hey.

Megan Porth: 00:20:31

This week you spent a thousand dollars of your retainer,

Megan Porth: 00:20:34

just wanted to let you know.

Megan Porth: 00:20:36

Then people can start to manage their questions.

Megan Porth: 00:20:39

They can be thoughtful in the emails that they send you instead of just

Megan Porth: 00:20:43

running through this $5,000, not really realizing that this money's

Megan Porth: 00:20:48

being eaten up that quickly.

Megan Porth: 00:20:50

That's a great,

Freddy D: 00:20:51

That's really excellent advice because then it creates a

Freddy D: 00:20:55

win-win scenario because now the client.

Freddy D: 00:20:59

Realizes like you just said, oh, wait a minute.

Freddy D: 00:21:01

Was that question really is this question we're about to send.

Freddy D: 00:21:05

Really relevant?

Freddy D: 00:21:06

Or is it just me just wanting to be heard know?

Freddy D: 00:21:11

Yeah.

Freddy D: 00:21:11

And it's not necessary right now.

Freddy D: 00:21:12

And I can hold off and I can just be patient , or and I

Freddy D: 00:21:17

can say, oh, wait a minute.

Freddy D: 00:21:17

I need to reload and I gotta plan because we're gonna, it's

Freddy D: 00:21:21

gonna cost me another five grand.

Freddy D: 00:21:22

And this is turning into a bigger thing and versus, oh my God, it's five grand.

Freddy D: 00:21:26

We can't do anything more until we get to another five grand.

Freddy D: 00:21:28

And so it's a whole nother.

Freddy D: 00:21:31

Yeah.

Megan Porth: 00:21:31

And then that way you can, because I think a lot of lawyers.

Megan Porth: 00:21:35

Take for granted what giving an attorney a retainer fee looks like, whether it's

Megan Porth: 00:21:40

a thousand dollars, $5,000, $10,000, most Americans, that's a lot of money.

Megan Porth: 00:21:45

Just to have somebody hold in a, in an account and charge against.

Megan Porth: 00:21:49

So I think that's one of the things that I think a lot of lawyers kind of

Megan Porth: 00:21:53

misunderstand because we do handle a lot of money, especially litigators.

Megan Porth: 00:21:56

It's a lot of money.

Megan Porth: 00:21:57

Okay.

Megan Porth: 00:21:58

And so I think that they take that for granted and don't recognize that this is

Megan Porth: 00:22:02

a lot of money and it's, it can make it, it puts people in a difficult position.

Megan Porth: 00:22:06

And so by notifying them more frequently how they're spending their money, I

Megan Porth: 00:22:09

think that they can be more cognizant, they can spend it more wisely.

Megan Porth: 00:22:13

But it also, on the backend, it helps the lawyer also to manage those clients.

Megan Porth: 00:22:20

So a lot of our time is spent.

Megan Porth: 00:22:23

They call us counselors of law for a reason.

Megan Porth: 00:22:26

A lot of my time is spent listening to somebody just vent, right?

Megan Porth: 00:22:30

So that's fine.

Megan Porth: 00:22:32

But if I'm billing you by the hour and my rate is 350 to $450 an hour, and your

Megan Porth: 00:22:38

therapist rate is $125 an hour, you sure?

Megan Porth: 00:22:44

You should know that, so that if we're gonna do an hour's worth of

Megan Porth: 00:22:49

counseling where you're just venting and we're not getting down to any of

Megan Porth: 00:22:52

the legal matters, you should know you're paying me a premium to do that.

Megan Porth: 00:22:55

So I just think it helps to manage the client as well as the attorney's

Freddy D: 00:23:00

time.

Freddy D: 00:23:01

Oh, absolutely.

Freddy D: 00:23:01

I think that makes that makes great sense.

Freddy D: 00:23:04

bEcause it's a win-win all the way around because the it that, Attorney

Freddy D: 00:23:10

that does that, uses that approach is gonna create a super fan out of that

Freddy D: 00:23:14

customer because now they're gonna be in the know and they're gonna go, oh wow.

Freddy D: 00:23:16

Thank you for the heads up.

Freddy D: 00:23:18

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:23:18

I didn't realize I was burning through that cash so fast.

Freddy D: 00:23:21

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:23:21

Et cetera.

Freddy D: 00:23:22

Let me, talk to, to my partner and tell them to quit making the phone

Freddy D: 00:23:25

calls and quit sending out emails.

Freddy D: 00:23:27

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:23:27

Because it could be someone else that's part of the whole puzzle

Freddy D: 00:23:31

that they're, they are, feel like.

Freddy D: 00:23:33

They're not informed, so they're reaching out.

Freddy D: 00:23:35

And so now the attorney's gotta deal with two, three people for the same thing.

Freddy D: 00:23:39

And everybody's got a different question.

Freddy D: 00:23:41

And the next thing you know just like you said, poof, the money's gone.

Freddy D: 00:23:44

And had there been some heads up and say, Hey, partner

Freddy D: 00:23:47

number two is driving me nuts.

Freddy D: 00:23:49

Here's reaching out to all these micro little thingies

Freddy D: 00:23:53

that are really insignificant.

Freddy D: 00:23:56

And it's burning through the cash.

Freddy D: 00:23:57

Wanna give you a heads up,

Megan Porth: 00:23:58

so that's exactly, tho that scenario happens so

Megan Porth: 00:24:02

often, and especially if one of the partners is the money person.

Megan Porth: 00:24:07

The other partner is maybe more of the implementation or idea person, and then

Megan Porth: 00:24:11

the money person is going, wait a second.

Megan Porth: 00:24:13

You're not the one who sent over the check.

Megan Porth: 00:24:16

You're not the one who's seeing this.

Megan Porth: 00:24:17

And it allows, and like you said, I feel like our job as lawyers

Megan Porth: 00:24:21

is to make the partnership less.

Megan Porth: 00:24:24

Contentious, and that's one of the ways that we can do it.

Megan Porth: 00:24:26

That's one of the ways that we can help the cost conscious partner

Megan Porth: 00:24:30

rail in or reign in, sorry.

Megan Porth: 00:24:32

Reign in the least cost conscious partner.

Megan Porth: 00:24:35

I understand you really love talking to our lawyer.

Megan Porth: 00:24:38

She's fun, right?

Megan Porth: 00:24:40

But let me tell you how much it's costing us.

Megan Porth: 00:24:42

So then that way you, you have that tangible and it's, and you catch it early.

Megan Porth: 00:24:46

Yep.

Megan Porth: 00:24:47

So like I said, that 5,000 bucks is important to businesses and

Megan Porth: 00:24:50

if they don't know that they've already spent it in 30 days.

Megan Porth: 00:24:53

I I, that's what I hear mostly from people who deal with

Megan Porth: 00:24:56

lawyers who bill by the hour.

Megan Porth: 00:24:57

They just, all of a sudden, 30 days later, I get this invoice and not only did they

Megan Porth: 00:25:01

spend up the $5,000, now I need another thousand for what they did additionally.

Freddy D: 00:25:06

MEgan how can people get ahold of you?

Megan Porth: 00:25:09

Absolutely.

Megan Porth: 00:25:10

We are virtual and web-based.

Megan Porth: 00:25:12

I'm located in Arizona.

Megan Porth: 00:25:13

Licensed in Arizona only.

Megan Porth: 00:25:15

I can provide periodic help in other jurisdictions other than

Megan Porth: 00:25:19

Hawaii and Texas, I believe.

Megan Porth: 00:25:21

So people can reach me, but mostly Arizona is where I focus.

Megan Porth: 00:25:24

You can reach me by going to www.yourcontractshop.com.

Megan Porth: 00:25:31

That's my website.

Megan Porth: 00:25:32

You can go ahead and get my email address off of there, which is

Megan Porth: 00:25:35

megan@yourcontractshop.com, or call my receptionist, which is usually

Megan Porth: 00:25:40

the best bet to get on my calendar.

Megan Porth: 00:25:42

I'm booking about two to three weeks out, sometimes a month out, so that's

Megan Porth: 00:25:45

usually the best way to get ahold of me.

Megan Porth: 00:25:47

And that phone number is six oh two seven five three.

Megan Porth: 00:25:50

1264, but everything's on my website, including Frederick.

Megan Porth: 00:25:54

And this is the one thing I can tell you too that creates

Megan Porth: 00:25:56

massive super fans in my clients.

Megan Porth: 00:25:59

I post my rates on my website.

Megan Porth: 00:26:02

My clients love the transparency.

Megan Porth: 00:26:05

They love it.

Megan Porth: 00:26:05

I think that has created superfans before they've even called me before.

Freddy D: 00:26:10

No, it's that's impressive because, we met

Freddy D: 00:26:13

through a local connection Yep.

Freddy D: 00:26:15

Years ago, Uhhuh and we've done numerous transactions together.

Freddy D: 00:26:19

Yes.

Freddy D: 00:26:20

Thank you.

Freddy D: 00:26:21

And you've been wonderful for my business and Oh, thanks.

Freddy D: 00:26:24

And other businesses.

Freddy D: 00:26:25

So I think it's, if anybody does have, Contractual questions, wanting to set up

Freddy D: 00:26:31

themselves a business get some guidance legally from a business perspective.

Freddy D: 00:26:36

Megan's her girl, I.

Megan Porth: 00:26:38

Oh, thanks Frederick.

Megan Porth: 00:26:39

And just so that your listeners know, I do a free 30 minute consultation,

Megan Porth: 00:26:43

so they can call that number, set up a client consultation on my calendar

Megan Porth: 00:26:47

and we can chat about your issues.

Megan Porth: 00:26:49

Also on my website I have a free guide on how to write and review contracts.

Megan Porth: 00:26:55

So you can go on there and it just says, write a killer contract here

Megan Porth: 00:26:58

and you can download the P D F.

Freddy D: 00:27:00

Great.

Freddy D: 00:27:01

All right.

Freddy D: 00:27:02

Megan, thank you very much for being on the business Super Fan podcast show

Freddy D: 00:27:06

and we will look forward to having you on the show again in the near future.

Freddy D: 00:27:10

And thank you very

Megan Porth: 00:27:11

much.

Megan Porth: 00:27:12

Thank you for having me.

Megan Porth: 00:27:13

I look forward to it.

Freddy D: 00:27:14

All right.

Freddy D: 00:27:14

Bye-bye.

Freddy D: 00:27:15

Bye.