Path of the Sober Seeker – Episode 4

Title: Art, Addiction, and the Sacred Pause (with Rich G)

Episode Summary:

In this episode, James talks with Rich G—an airbrush artist and longtime member of AA—about the intersection of creativity, recovery, and spiritual transformation. Rich shares how he uses art to express his inner battles and describes powerful moments of spiritual awakening. They discuss how routine can become a trap, how media shapes our identity, and how recovery gives us the sacred pause most people are missing.

Whether you're new to sobriety, exploring creative healing, or feeling spiritually dry, this episode offers honest insight, lived experience, and practical encouragement.

Topics Discussed:

• Using creativity to confront inner demons
• The danger of comfort and routine in recovery
• How structure can support or stifle growth
• Staying spiritually awake in a media-driven world
• Reflections on Ramadan, fasting, and spiritual discipline
• Quitting smoking and building new habits
• The sacred pause and the gift of conscious contact
• Becoming a stranger to your old self
• Practicing spiritual principles in daily life

Quotes from the Episode:

"When you're too focused on day-to-day survival, there's no energy left for self-improvement."

"Art became a way to trap the demons I battled internally and manifest them outside of me."

"Most of society doesn't have that sacred pause—but recovery gives it to us."

"You're not guaranteed a boat or a house, but you're guaranteed a relationship with your Creator."

Book Recommendations:

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• The Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield
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• Sermon on the Mount by Emmet Fox
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Final Message:

If you’re feeling stuck, spiritually dry, or overwhelmed by routine—start small. Stay present. And please, pick up the phone before you pick up the bottle.

Connect with Path of the Sober Seeker:

Website: https://soberseekerpath.com

Instagram: https://instagram.com/path.of.the.sober.seeker

TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@the_sober_seeker

YouTube: https://youtube.com/@pathofthesoberseeker

Hello everyone, and welcome to episode four of Path of the Sober Seeker.

My name is James.

I'm an alcoholic, and I'm gonna be your host for today.

Uh, we're gonna start out every episode as we always do with

Aljarah

Rahim, Maad a ya.

Mean and welcome everyone to the show today.

I'd like to introduce our guest.

Uh, we have a very special guest today.

His name is Rich.

He is a, you know, let's go ahead and do it.

Rich.

Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself today.

Hi.

Yeah, I'm Rich.

I, um, an artist.

Uh, uh, I, I'm an artist.

spiritual artist.

Absolutely.

Well, let's put

it that way.

So do you find when you're like a creative flow like that, like

art, I mean, do you have like, uh, talk me through your process.

Man, I'm not an artist.

I don't know what, uh,

it, it's, it's, it develops, it's constantly developing.

Um.

Like I, I've dabbled in, uh, many different mediums like, uh, oil paints.

Uh, my main thing is airbrush though, and I think it has a lot to do with

the fact it relates a lot to, or it's very similar to, to tattooing.

Like it's, I price it the same as the tattoo artist would.

Um, I found that a lot of creative people.

Fall into, you know, they come outta school and the way society's

set up, you know, you go get a job and you do this, and you do that.

And unless you, if you go to, like, I went to college for, uh, commercial art

and it was not my thing, so I freelance.

Um, but as it pertains to.

Uh, spirituality.

I found myself creating these, you know, I often wonder, I create these

monstrous kind of helmets, you know, I have a, a couple that I've made

and I, I look at 'em and I'm going like, wow, these are really demonic.

So how, how does that translate into a spiritual, uh, you

know, a god-like existence and.

I convinced myself that when I made those things, those ugly things, and

people have asked me, you know, how can you claim to be God-like, and still make

these sort of demonic looking helmets?

And, and these, your, your art is kind of dark.

There's a lot of fire in a lot of, a lot of that, uh, gothic

sort of, you, you know, that kind of thing that interests me.

But the way I. Looked at it, or the way I justified it in my head was that the

demons in my mind, the demons that I battle every day, manifest themselves

in some shape that I'm creating.

When I'm in that creative space and when they manifest themselves,

I look at it like it's trapped.

I trap this demon.

There it is.

Oh, like a Ghostbusters trap.

Like they put the little box out.

Oh, that's exactly, exactly.

Okay.

Only it

comes through me and it manifests into a materialistic

thing, so it's not, it's not that ghostly thing that's haunting me.

Right.

Oh, that's fair.

It's a material thing that I can take and put on a shelf and I

don't have to deal with it anymore.

Yeah.

I was about to ask you, 'cause I know you do, um, different mediums of art.

Uh, you were, you know, we talked, spoke a little bit.

You do, you know, boat.

You know, boat airbrushing, do a lot of work with the motorcycle community.

Sure, sure.

Um, do you find that that's just what sells, or is it just

what comes out when you're being creative for creativity's sake?

Um, it's, I don't know.

I kind of fell into it because I didn't fall into it.

I kind of moved into that area because it was, because I know those people.

You know, okay.

I ride.

And so I know a lot of guys that ride and when I was in the islands, I knew a lot

of people on boats and then, you know, uh, there was a biker community there.

I gravitate towards those kind of people.

You know, I gravitate towards the,

the rebellious outcasts of society, I guess

is more of the unconventional.

Right.

Well, that's one of the things we, you know, we deal with in recovery.

Um, you know, I've talked about in the rooms how we are the.

Yeah.

You know, for lack of a better term, the island of misfit toys.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, we talk about that.

It says specifically in the big book that where, you know, we're

people who normally would not mix.

Right.

And I think that's a very, um, important distinction considering

like the d disease of addiction.

It respects no one, it doesn't care what color your skin is.

It doesn't care what you do for profession.

It doesn't care about anything Right.

Yet, it's gonna take everything.

Right.

And, um, I think because it's such an all-encompassing disease that respects

nothing, we, you know, when we come into recovery and we're seeking that type of

healing, you know, obviously we're gonna come from all the different backgrounds.

Sure.

That kind of, you know, reflects that level of disrespect that the disease has.

I. Um, it's just another one of those contradictions of recovery.

Right.

Um, one of the things, and one of the reasons I wanted to ask you on the show

today was we were, you know, I was at a meeting the other night and you had

mentioned that, uh, that, that one comment has been in my mind all week.

The one about how, uh, you know, we fall into structure and when

you break out of that comfort zone, that's really what allows a higher

power God to work in your life.

And it's just been, I've been like, really, you know, not to give

too much away about my personal.

You know, situation, but you know about my injury and what, sure.

You know, I've been sidelined these last few weeks and it's really been

a total disruption to my routine, like a total, you know, disruption.

But at the same time, it's opened the door for me to not only work

on this podcast, but other, you know, I have a big chunk of time to.

Um, in invest and to put in all these other projects that are, you know,

making, making a sincere contribution.

Um, so one of the thing, and I kind of wanted to explore that a little bit with

you, I wanna talk about like, uh, good structure versus destructive structure.

Mm-hmm.

You know, um, and in AA we have a, uh, you know, it is a very structured.

Progression.

You know, we have different, you know, we, the steps are there for a reason.

The traditions are there for a reason.

You know, we do, um, you know, we do what we can to avoid, uh, innovation.

Um, and the traditions are there to ensure continuity among, among different groups.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I know you're a well traveled guy and you've been to meetings all

over the world, and it's like when you go in, it's the same structure.

In every meeting, and we apply that to our, you know, our recovery.

We have like healthy structure versus what happens like when you cross into

an unhealthy structure where you're involved in maybe a, um, you know,

thought patterns, behavior patterns that might not necessarily be relapsed, but

there's still, you know, destructive mentally and destructive emotionally.

Right, right.

Um, what do I do?

Or just what I mean, just any insight you would have in Yeah.

Um

hmm.

Well.

I know complacency is dangerous.

Right?

Right.

So, uh, I really admire what what you've done with yourself,

with this, with this podcast.

Um, and I think that's what attracted me to you.

You know, you say you're, you were a driving truck and you had your injury,

and now it gives you time for this.

And the first thing that came to my mind is, is when one door

closes, God will open another one.

Right.

But you have to be, you have to be aware.

Of when that door opens.

And that's the tricky part.

It's like, is this the right thing for me to do?

It's a good example for, for me is, you know, when I was living in the

island, I, I've made that my home.

I didn't wanna live anywhere else.

In fact, to this day, I really don't wanna live anywhere else.

I want to be in a tropical climate.

I miss it horribly.

I miss it terribly and, but.

When I was there, I learned a lot about myself.

I learned that, um, and, and I might get a little off topic here, but what I

learned was that I didn't have the tools,

the life tools to fit in where I want it to be.

Right.

And.

In the course of the time living there, you know, that's where I got sober.

Um, and during that time, I, uh, I didn't take it seriously.

I didn't take sobriety seriously.

I didn't take, um, the things that were good for me, seriously.

I wanted them, but.

I didn't know how to get there myself, and I've always got there myself.

Through my whole life.

It was me pushing through, working hard, trying to do the best that I can at

whatever I was in front of me at the time.

And it, I think all of that led me to here, led me to here.

So.

When I was there in the islands and I'm trying to get sober and I'm,

I'm, I'm, the only thing I had was my own self will, my own, uh, what I've

learned from life up to that point.

Now I'm, I'm in my, I'm 40 at that time and I have these

people trying to help me and.

In the past, the people that were trying to help me, they would, I

felt judged by those people like you.

You have a problem and you need to fix it.

That's what I heard.

But what I saw was somebody that had the same problem telling me that I

have a problem and I need to fix it.

And I'm like, how can you, how do you know?

You know?

I mean, this is what we've always done.

How do you know I have a problem?

If you're doing the same thing?

Right, right.

So is this normal or are you just singling me out, making me.

You know, trying to make me feel inadequate, which I did, but I didn't

know any of that until I got sober, until I worked the, until I worked the

12 steps and got into that personal inventory where I started looking at

the things that made me mad throughout my, throughout my history of life,

essentially, those things that I, that I was harboring, that I was hanging

onto those, that anger and resentment.

Once I started looking at those and I was able to see through the process where

they came from, when they started, I was able to see how I could correct them.

And in that process of self-discovery, people were offering suggestive,

uh, suggesting certain books to me.

You know, we talked about Emmett Fox's Sermon on the Mount, right.

And, uh, when I read that book, all the confusion.

Of my, from the time I was a little kid, up until that point, all the confusion

that I experienced was clarified in Emmett Fox's book, sermon on the Mount.

And I'm like, so that's what Jesus is talking about.

That was, that's what, and it was it, it was so simple.

It was so common sense in a way.

Right, right.

And it's funny how people will take their understanding and

try and influence you with it.

And that's what I felt like what was going on through my life.

People were trying to influence me or convince me of their

perception of religion or, or God or whatever, and I didn't trust it.

I didn't trust what people were offering me.

Right.

Right.

Or trying to tell because they were telling me, you need to do this.

When I went to Alcoholics Anonymous, they never told me that.

They said, you know, in fact, the men that that helped me, they said,

we'll, never tell you what to do.

We'll only show you what we did to get to where we're at.

Great.

You know, and I worked with, uh, a guy like that one time.

He never told me how to do the job.

He showed me what to do.

And I was like, man, that's, that's how we should be

communicating with people in life.

I mean, if you look at, if you look at the broad spectrum of what's

happening in the world, everybody's telling everybody what they should be

doing and what they need to be doing.

Nobody's showing anybody how to do it properly.

Or at least I, there are very few.

I mean, I've seen people who say, you know, this is, this is the way it's done.

And if you don't do it this way, you don't get the benefits of that.

You see that a lot in aa.

Right?

Right.

You see, well, this is what we did.

If you don't do what we did, you're not gonna get what we have.

And this goes back to when I was, I first got sober, I didn't know what they had.

I had no idea.

I knew they, you know, they told me, you know, find somebody who has what

you want and ask 'em to be your sponsor.

Right, right.

I found like, I found the guy who had the car, the girl, the house, the

business, the boat, the car, the bike.

You know, I'm like, she's got everything I want.

I'm gonna ask this guy.

Like worldly stuff.

Worldly stuff.

Right.

I was totally oblivious to the spiritual and that.

Uh, now that I'm older and been around a little while, that's

the thing that I want most.

That's the thing that I find myself pursuing more than anything.

The material or anything, is the spiritual aspect of life.

You know, that communication with God, that constant.

Conscious contact, right.

That they talk about.

You know?

And that's, to me, that's the most important thing.

And it's the guiding thing in my life.

If God wants me to be rich, I'll be rich.

If God wants me to be a, a, a, you know, a, a poor beggar,

whatever, God's starving artist.

A starving artist, there you go.

Right?

If he wants me to be that, then I need to be that to the best of my ability.

To glorify him.

Right?

Right.

So if I'm a as so that's kind of my life on a daily basis to try and, and,

and be the best rich that rich can be.

You know what I mean?

Oh,

absolutely.

And, and when, and

well that, that's kind of the, the.

You know, function of the steps is we become the best version of ourselves.

I mean, you look at, you know, six and seven, where we're getting

rid of character defects, right.

We're doing, you know, clearing up our wreckage, making amends, doing all these

different things to, you know, basically, you know, clear off all the crud.

Right.

That become the best version of ourselves.

Right.

Right.

Um, it's just with, um, I, I feel like in a AA or just, you know, recovery in

general, it doesn't necessarily, you know, it's not, AA isn't the end all.

You know, there's other fellowships, there's other things, but we are.

Because of the wreckage of our lives.

Because we lived with that sense of like selfishness and

self-centeredness for so long.

And we had such in your face consequences, you know?

And every single one of us has a different, you know,

has a different rock bottom.

We've all had a different, you know, different story.

But the fact is, is we have been brought to our lowest of low

from, you know, from this disease.

And since we have experienced that sense of like spiritual, you know.

But rock bottom, uh, we, we have one, we have a launching pad to launch up.

Mm-hmm.

And two, it gives us a sense of gratitude once we do start to get, you know, clear

away some of that wreckage and start to live, you know, and start to allow the

light of Allah or a light, a, a light of God into your, um, into your heart.

Right.

It's just really, um, you know, but it's something that the

entire world can benefit from.

And you mentioned earlier in your, in your comment that it's like

you see, uh, you know, out in the world everyone's like, oh, you

should do this, you should do that.

All these other things and everything is trying to dictate your reality to you.

Mm-hmm.

Whereas in the rooms, you don't have any of that.

You have people who say, okay, if you do what I do, you know,

you might get a sense of it.

Right.

But it's, it's not guaranteed.

You know, 'cause everyone's story is different.

Sure.

You're not guaranteed.

I mean, just because you get a, uh, you see someone who has something you

want all the material things, the boat, the sponsor, the big house, all that.

Um, it, you're not guaranteed that.

But like you mentioned earlier, you're guaranteed to have that

relationship with your higher power.

Sure.

And that opens you up to being content with the destiny, the,

the one that's written for you.

You know, in AA we call it the Road to Happy Destiny.

Sure.

In Islam, we call it Al qa, which is the, um, define divine decree.

It's actually one of our six articles of faith that you believe in the destiny.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that has been written for you.

Sure.

Um.

Yeah.

And you have a, you know, you have a sense of provision, you know,

and everything's written for you.

And being at peace with that, and that's one of the things that really,

you know, uh, comes along with it.

But it's very difficult when we live in such a materialistic society when

they're saying, okay, well you need to make X amount of dollars a year.

You need to have this car, you need all these different things,

or you're never gonna be happy.

Right.

Um, and it's programmed from a younger age too.

Like, if you think back in school, like you, um, you know,

I understand you're an artist.

You're more of a creative soul, and you know, the, you know, the.

Powers that be, or the structure of society doesn't like things like that.

They don't want people who think outside of the box who color outside of the lines.

They want you to toe the line.

You know, you're supposed to pay attention in school, do you know,

get, get, get all this knowledge regurgitated on a test, sit still under

fluorescent lights for eight hours a day.

You know, go to college and really kick it in.

And then if you, but if you don't do that, if you don't follow it, then you're

gonna end up broke and lonely and they.

Try to structure everything with fear, you know, and it's really,

well, there is truth to that for sure.

Right.

As far as structuring with fear, you know, I'm not man enough if

I don't drink this kind of, girls won't like me if I don't do this.

If I don't drive this car, I'm not gonna be this person.

And, and there is some truth to that.

I mean, society wise, it's, there's truth to that.

You know, people are influenced by what they see through the media,

through, um, through off the internet.

Uh, you know, and there's social media stuff.

People are influenced.

I know I was influenced by television my whole life.

A lot of the reason I'm on the bikes is because I, you know,

I was a big Fonza Rally fan.

Arthur Fonza rally Happy Days.

He was the coolest guy, right?

Uh, speed Racer's.

Why?

I like cars custom and old cars.

He used to wa wake up.

I couldn't wait to watch Speed Racer.

I was into, uh, comic strips and I can see through my life where

these, these TV shows and, and cartoons and such influenced.

My direction in life.

It, it's weird how that happens.

Um, actually it's, it's kind of, it's, it's a little bit scary because I can

see, I can step back and try and view the bigger picture and I can see how.

And media influences people.

If you, you know how the, the everything you see on TV and the internet and your

news channels, how it influences people.

You got the whole left right thing going on.

You have all these, these, um, hot topic issues in the world today and

how they get fueled by social media.

The thing is, through my experience.

I've been out in public, and when you're not in front of a computer or a television

or, or things like you, or you put your phone down for a minute when you're

out in public and depending on where you are, you don't see any of that.

You don't see it, I you don't.

If you can get away from.

That influence and, and talk to people directly.

Of course.

Maybe it's because all I do is go to meetings.

Right?

Right.

But, uh,

when I lived in the islands, some of the happiest, most loving people that I've

ever met were the poorest, were the people who, they were the people who weren't

influenced by materialistic things.

They sure they wanted, you know, they wanted a nice life, but they were,

they were happy with where they were.

And I see that here as well.

I mean, I, I, you know, in the,

you know, yeah.

Ohio, it just in northeast Ohio, but anywhere around a

large, um, something going on.

Yeah.

Yeah, not under I, I, I just, any major city, any major, um, any

metropolitan area, people are so wrapped up in their day to day, you know, I have

to go to work, I have to make this money so I can pay my mortgage and my insurance

and my healthcare, and I have to do this.

And, and it's like, to me.

It's a trap, not, and to me it feels like a trap.

That's why I live and work the way I do.

Um, I have more freedom and, um.

Where my, you know,

your energy and attention are going.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Determination,

right, right.

Um,

no, I feel it is a trap, you know, and it's by, I, uh, it's by design.

Like our society has been engineered this way to keep people trapped.

I mean, because they're not, I mean, when you have a population that is

so focused on day-to-day survival, you know, and this day and age,

most people aren't getting ahead.

I mean, you look at like how, you know, rent prices are, have increased food,

prices have increased insurance, cars, fuel, everything costs so much and

so many people have to work so hard.

Um, you know, you have multiple jobs.

They're doing side gigs, you know, DoorDash, Uber, whatever,

just to make ends meet.

Um, a society that is, that distracted just with day-to-day

survival isn't gonna cause trouble.

You know, they're too tired at the end of the day.

Right, right.

Um, the Romans figured it out, these to keep their people, you

know, with bread and circuses these days we have McDonald's in the NFL.

Right.

So it's like they're not, you know, no, no one's talking about anything really.

You know, anything really, you know, that, that's gonna cause trouble.

It's not gonna like shake the roots of society.

They're just so, you know, wrapped up in day-to-day survival.

Sure.

Um, and it's getting, you know, it's, uh, it's getting worse.

You know, I see with, um, you know, take the legalization

of marijuana, for example.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Like I was a big, big, you know, I used that one of my favorite, you know,

escapes when I was in active addiction.

And one thing about using that substance is it makes you okay with being lazy.

I. Yep.

So you have an entire, you have an entire population that is now, you

know, partaking in that type of thing.

Sure.

Um, so in their off time, they're just doing that, you know,

watching sports center or whatever.

They're not gonna be out in the streets protesting.

And I see this, like, I go on, um, you know, go on.

Um, I. Twitter or look at different like international, um, you know, forums.

And people in Europe especially can't understand why Americans are so just so

complacent, just so docile in the face of being, you know, taken advantage of

by our government, taken advantage of by employers, um, taken advantage of by

just the oligarchy in the ruling class.

It's because they're too comfortable.

And that's the thing where we can, you know, bring it back

into that sense of like being.

Caged by comfort, and it's not necessarily a, um, you know, I'm not trying to

advocate for like, you know, social unrest or like anarchy or anything.

Um.

Uh, but when we're so wrapped up in day-to-day survival, there's

very little energy that you could put towards self-improvement.

Mm-hmm.

Um, when you're living and putting all of your energy into just satisfying

the needs of what we call the dunya, you know, the world, um, there's very

little extra attention to give the.

To the divine.

And that's really what opens up our hearts.

And that's one of the things like in Alcoholics Anonymous, where if I'm

going to meetings at night, I'm not sitting at home just watching tv,

not just consuming all this media.

Um, I'm actually out, you know, being part of the community, being, you know, sure.

Interacting with people and it's good for all of our spiritual wellbeing.

Yeah.

Well, it, it boils down to what, what you put in to your, what you

consume is what you're gonna put out or what you're going to, uh.

What you're gonna put out or where your focus is gonna be is, so what you cons.

So what I was talking about, how these movies and TV shows

influenced me through my life.

If, if, if you're consuming a, a large amount of a,

a large amount of dark material entertainment wise, like, uh, you

know, if, if you're a horror flick fan.

You know, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with horror Flick fans.

Um, a horror movie is fun once in a while, but if that's all you

do and all you obsess about, it's going to twist your mind, you know?

Right.

Um, it's the same with music.

If, uh, you know, I'm, I'm amazed at how impactful music is on me, you

know, certain types of music like this, hard head banging, how that, I

mean, that just gets me, uh, I get.

You know, I get on edge, you know?

Right.

If I'm listening to it while I'm driving road rages is, is

there, it's it's lives there.

Right.

Um, if I'm listening to some cool old bluesy stuff, then yeah,

man, I start to get melancholy.

You know, I start thinking about my old girlfriends and certain things

and it, it's, I'm allowing that thing, those things to influence me.

Right.

And today I don't, I don't do it.

Outta habit or do it to feel good, I do it.

When I listen to those types of music that I listened to when I was a kid,

I, I, uh, it's usually I'm quiet.

I've got a piece of artwork going on and I, I need some stimulation

to, to push that creativity forward.

Right?

That's really the only time I listen to music.

I don't listen to it in my truck while I'm driving.

I don't listen to, uh, I'm not on my phone very often because I don't want to.

I don't want to cut off that connection I have with God, you know?

And if I'm distracting myself with these things, the computer, the tv, the radio,

then I'm cutting myself off from God.

Now if I'm thinking about if I'm, if I'm connected to God and I'm like, is

there a message in this entertainment that I'm consuming right now?

That I, that can affect my life in a positive way.

I'm gonna look at it, you know, like if I'm reading a book or, or I'm

watching a podcast, or I'm, uh, you know, I've got something going on in the

background while I'm, you know, what am I, what, what am I getting out of this?

If it's hateful and hurtful music, then I need to turn that off and I will.

Um.

I

forgot where I was going

with that.

It's okay.

You brought up an interesting point is like if you, you know, find yourself

doing that, it's, I feel like working a program of recovery gives us the tools we

need to have that, you know, that sacred pause, that moment of self, you know,

introspection where you're like, Hey, wait a minute, why am I feeling this way?

We kind of take the, you know, 10,000 foot view and say, okay,

what, you know, what is going on?

We pause in the moment.

It gives us one of those tools that aren't.

Uh, most of society doesn't have that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, doesn't ha doesn't have that.

Um,

you hit it right there on the head.

Most of society doesn't have that.

Right.

And it's interesting that, that we do, um, where it came from and how it developed.

I mean, it's, it's such a small part of the global community, our little program.

Right.

Alcoholics Anonymous.

Right.

It that, um, it sort of illustrates how they say.

I don't, I, I've heard it said in the Christian community that, you

know, the path to God is narrow and the path to hell is wide.

And, uh, and if you step back and look at, at, at, at the global community,

I can see how that would be, you know, or even if you look at it from the

perspective of Alcoholics Anonymous and, and Alcoholics Anonymous.

Uh, the reason I I like Alcoholics Anonymous or why I, I'm so into

it is that number one, what we talked about, nobody tells you

what to do in Alcoholics Anonymous.

They show you what they did, and that's the way it's supposed to be.

Um, there's a lot of humility with this program.

There's a lot of of spiritual guidance through this program

that was developed through.

You know, uh, so many people that have gone before us, it, this program is

developed through their experience.

You know?

Right.

Everything that is in exist in that exists in this program today is a direct result

of somebody else's experience who've gone before us, and that is just on a large

scale, what, what I think God wants of us.

You know, you set a good example.

You learn your lessons and you pass it on to somebody else.

If they want it, they'll use it.

If they don't, then they need, you know, there's more for them to

learn before they get to that point.

Right.

That's why the 12 steps are in order for a reason.

That's what they tell us.

They're in order for a reason.

You gotta establish that relationship with God to help.

You understand yourself in four and five, where your defects are and and where

your, where your character is in general.

And then in six and seven, we work with God on these defects, right?

And then in eight and nine we make set things right.

That's why the ninth step promises they can make those promises, right?

Because in that step, we're painstaking about that phase

of our development, right?

Right.

So we're paying back the money, we're changing our behavior.

We're.

You know, we're spending time with our kids and our, um,

taking care of our people, right?

So of course those promises are gonna come through.

Fear of financial insecurity will leave us.

Why?

Because we paid back the money.

Fear of people will leave us.

Why?

Because we're better people.

And we attract better people and we've set the wrongs right with the

people that we've wronged, you know?

Right.

Um, and then at 10, 11 and 12, what do we do?

We continue to do those first nine on a daily basis.

It breaks it down.

We continue to do an inventory because none of us are perfect.

You know, I have new character defects pop up all the time, and 11.

And we continue to improve that conscious contact with God as we

understand him or, and, you know, whatever your concept of God is.

Um, and then at 12, what do we do?

We're of service.

We're of service to God and our fellow man.

Right.

No, I, I agree.

And, and where else can we be that be more effective in that service

than in a place where we can identify with other people like us?

Right, absolutely.

And, and I know from my own experience, it was super hard for me to identify

with a certain level of society that I found myself in when I moved to

those islands, you know, these people.

And maybe it was my own, my own perception, my own insecurities

that excluded me from those people.

But I saw, uh, I saw successful.

Well put together people, and when I say well put together, I'm not talking

about just their clothes, I'm talking about their lives were well put together.

They built nice lives for themselves and, and that intimidated me.

And I'd never been intimidated like that before.

It made me feel less than, and I, I, huh, today I understand that

I didn't need to feel that way.

All of that feeling that I felt inadequate of inadequacy was a direct result of.

My defects of character, my self-loathing, my my, uh, my low self-esteem.

And until I could work on that, I couldn't, I'll never fit in a situation

like, like that that I found myself in.

I wanted to, so bad, I wanted to be those people, but I

didn't have the proper training.

So today I found that it's not important to be part of that.

What's important is to be the best version of myself so that when I

find myself in situations that might be intimidating to other people

or the old me, I, it, it's okay.

Right?

I am.

I am who I am, and I'm constantly learning.

I'm constantly growing, and if I'm not good enough for your.

Your clique, your group, or whoever you are.

That's cool too, man.

I'll just move on and do my own thing, right?

Because today I am comfortable with me and that's what it boils down to.

I think I'm comfortable with me and I'm comfortable with my relationship

to God, and I know that if I keep doing what I'm doing, that

relationship will grow and improve.

And.

You know, I've already found my people, I've found my people

in Alcoholics Anonymous do.

Right.

You know,

I, I I wanna touch on something you mentioned earlier about, um, how aa

we do represent such a small, I guess, contingent of the global community.

Mm. Which, which is true.

Um, you know, I've often said that aa, we're the biggest secret

society in the world, though.

You know, we have our way of recognizing each other.

You know, we're Fred of Bill's.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we have, uh, you've seen the, um.

You know, or sit the, the triangle inside of the circle, you know,

just a little, that's all it takes is just one tiny little symbol

on the back of a car somewhere.

And you know, that's a friend.

Yeah.

Um, and you know, we have our own language.

Mm-hmm.

We do.

We have our own way of rec recognizing each other.

We have our own language and it's, you know, I feel that it's, you brought

up a good point that when you were involved in a certain like level of, um.

You know, society, these people who seem to, you know, normal, well-adjusted

people who might, might seem intimidating.

And to come from a lot of us in aa, we come from a very, uh, yeah, I, I, I

would, I grew up in a very psychologically tumultuous, you know, environment.

And it's common for a lot of us, you know, we use drinking and other substances as

a way to, uh, you know, cope with that.

Yeah.

Um, you know, it's, it's, but when, and I've run into the similar thing too.

I don't necessarily think it's.

Intimidating.

But at the same time, I can recognize when I'm around people who grew

up, um, with a childhood that they didn't have to recover from.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and it's, and I think that's an important distinction.

Um, 'cause it is really, you know, in a lot of AA it is a, uh, you

know, its disease can be considered hereditary in a lot of ways.

You know, we see that, you know, we grew up in ways that, you know, may, it

might have been alcohol was prevalent or different, you know, different things.

But we do, uh, we we're able to.

Uh, overcome all that and be a force of good in the world.

You know, we talk about that, you know, working through the stops and

we get to step 12, we practice these principles in all of our affairs.

Right.

Which means for being such a tiny little contingent of the global society, just

through our good deeds and just through our, you know, living a program, you

know, living a life of rigorous honesty.

Yeah.

We're able to have, have a ripple effect.

Sure.

And we start to be a, um, you know, start to be someone who's, you know, be.

Basically, you know, I, today I am a total stranger to how I used to be.

Yeah.

You know, and if I ran into myself, you know, 15, 20 years ago, how I used to be

versus who I, you know, the man I turned into today, I'd say, no, no effing way.

You know, there's no way that I'd be, it'll be able to do that.

And it's, um, you know, and what a miracle.

Yeah.

Um, oh, you

just said it, man.

That is a miracle.

It really is.

Yeah.

I mean, we are, I, I look at, uh, you know, and this is one of the things of

like social media that is really, um, it is a tool, but I have a, uh, you know, I

go on, I go on Facebook and it has this thing called Facebook Memories, and I've

been to Facebook for quite some time.

And it will dig up comments that I made when I was still in active

addiction, and I'm like, what a jerk.

Like I look at it, I couldn't even believe that I wrote that

and I remember writing it.

Right.

And then it's kind of like puts me in the mindset that I was in back then and just

like a angry, hateful, spiteful person.

Right?

Um, and that's how it is with those character defects, you

know, when we're living from that.

Yeah.

It is really, um, it, it's kind of upsetting, kind of sad, you know?

Uh, but at the same time, what a wonderful.

You know, what a wonderful signpost to see how far we've come and how far we've

healed and how far we've evolved Yeah.

As a result of working this

program.

Yeah.

I, I think it's also important to, to, to remember that, um, you know, when

you mentioned the, the Facebook, uh, you know, a look back at your history

and the things that we've posted in the past that, you know, it's, it's

important to stay in the present man.

Um.

Because all we really have is right now, right now in this moment, right?

All, all we have is this conversation.

And, and when, when this is done, I'm gonna move on to, to, to my, the

rest of my day and, and do whatever.

But in this moment I can, I can enjoy it as, you know, like I told

you I wanted to do this, right?

Yeah.

I, I was excited to do this and.

I think it's one of the coolest things is to get a message out, a message of

love, of tolerance, of peace, of hope.

You know, all the good things that, all those things that I didn't know I

wanted, that I want today, and in wanting them, I want to give it away as well.

You know what I mean?

Wait,

you have to, I mean, it's one of the contradictions of a And that's one of

the things I love about recoveries.

Yeah.

How much of our, uh, just like approach is contradictory.

You know, give it away to keep it surrender, to win.

Like these things, it doesn't make sense.

But until you, until you do it right.

And we do have to give it away to keep it.

'cause that keeps you in the, you know, keeps you in the flow of things.

Sure, sure.

Um, and it's just really, you know, it's important to be able to do that.

You know, we practice these principles in all of our affairs.

Yeah.

We really do.

Um, and it's really, um.

You know, I think it's great how we, you know, follow, uh, God's

will through different things.

Like you had mentioned, uh, we were talking earlier this week and you had

mentioned you'd come back up here.

You had a gran, you had a grandchild.

Yeah.

And it's, you know, and I understand one part of you really misses

living down island, obviously, you know, tropical environment.

Now you're in, you know, Cleveland, Ohio, where we just

had one of the coldest winters.

I mean, you live in a place.

That the air hurts your face.

You know, you go outside in mid-February and it's like, you know,

negative salt, negative whatever.

Not to mention the wind chill.

I mean, we had so much ice on the lake.

It was, it was frozen as far out, all the way to the horizon.

Just white frozen wasteland, all the way, all the way out on the lake.

And living in a place where the air hurts your face knowing, you know,

and you know what it's like when you're down, you know, down in the

tropics and it's, you know, beautiful.

It's perpetual summer, right?

Um, the thing is you're exactly where you need to be and being able to accept that.

Is really, you know, that's a big part of our, uh, program

too, you know, accepting Right.

Just accepting things.

Right, right.

You know, I'll tell you a story.

Um, when I was, when my whole life was falling apart down there, um,

I, uh, I hit my knees.

I was, I was, I don't know if I wanna share this, but I've shared it before.

I was having an affair on my wife at the time, and I didn't know.

I didn't know what to do because I wanted to be in the comfort of

the, my old ways with this girl that I was messing around with.

And, but I also wanted the, the structure and the, and the, that level of society

and, and, you know, righteousness, upstanding, you know, that my, my wife

had, and I was torn between the old me and the me I wanted to be, and.

I, I, I, you know, I would hit my knees because I was in the program.

I definitely, I wasn't doing the work, but I was trying to follow some suggestions.

And I would hit my knees and I would pray and I would be like,

God, put me where you want me.

You know, just your will be, you know, your will be done.

And every time I do that, this girl would call me the one I was

messing around with, and I'm like, man, that did not make sense to me.

Because every time I said that prayer.

You know, she would call me, not my wife.

Right.

So I'm like, something's wrong here.

And I brought that up to my dad years later and he said, rich,

you know, God's not the only one listening to your prayers.

And I'm like, Hmm.

You know, referring to the devil, right?

Right.

Shaan.

Sure.

And I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about that.

And I really did not want to give the devil that much credit.

So I started thinking about it and thinking about it, and.

Then I heard somebody say, God will use your defects to

put you where he wants you.

You know?

Right.

So I find myself in a place I don't want to be, um, in, uh, you know, the

thing that keeps me here is my kids.

I love my kids very much, but, and my grandkids and I'm, I love

Alcoholics Anonymous because it changed the way I think, the way I live.

It changed my life.

So, you know, by removing me from all of that.

Distraction, all of that material stuff and putting me here where I can find a

true spiritual path, um, I, where I can be effective, where I can be helpful, where

I can have, you know, purpose, that life was selfish and self-centered as much

as, you know, I wanted, I wanted right.

I wanted to be part of that social, uh, environment.

I wanted the beauty, I wanted the comfort.

I wanted the, I wanted, I wanted it.

I want it.

So it was a selfish way of living.

We're here, we're here.

I have to, I have to, um, I have to sacrifice that selfishness.

I have to sacrifice, you know, it's, they say that, you know, our program is, is.

Yeah.

Not thinking less of ourself, but thinking of ourself less.

Right.

Right.

So that's what I'm finding.

I'm, I'm getting all this spiritual, all these spiritual tools and all

this good that is not material.

It's all spiritual.

It's all mental.

It, uh, if you, if, if, if, I would've, if you would've told me years ago,

20 years ago that the spiritual.

I wouldn't have believed you if it was, if you told me that the

spiritual was outweighs the material.

I wouldn't have believed it.

I couldn't believe it.

But today I believe it more than anything else, that the spiritual

is way more important than the, uh.

Well, rich material.

Let's unpack that a little bit when, because it sounds like you're talking

a lot about a spiritual awakening, which is one of the 12, you know,

what we have with 12, step 12.

Okay.

So when you came to this realization that like the spiritual was a lot

more, um, real than the, you know, the the physical realm, what, I mean,

was it like a sudden wake, you woke up one day and it was like a sudden

like poof revelation, so to speak?

Or was it more of a slow awakening,

sometimes quickly, sometimes slow.

Right, right.

I had, I had both, um.

I had two spiritual, well, I, I had two spiritual experiences and my spiritual

awakening was over a period of time.

It was gradual.

Um, and really the only way I can see it is to, to look back at my life and see

how it developed into what it is today.

However, the two experiences that I experienced were completely

sober, no drugs involved.

Um.

I was in the ocean.

It was a white sand beach submerged in three feet of water.

And then there was a rocky shoreline, but it was clear white sand in the water.

And I'm standing there up to my waist in water and I'm in salt water.

And this feeling came over me.

It was overwhelming.

Um, it was like a connectedness to everything, you know.

It was like maybe, I don't know.

I like to think it was, God just touched me.

It's just a little touch.

I got a little bit of that.

Right, right.

And I only experienced it one time and then, and that was there and it was

easy to say, well, it was because I was.

In the islands.

I was in this paradise place and, and it, you know, I just took it all in

and it felt good, but it wasn't like that because I felt that the first

time I got there it was something else.

It was something deeper and, uh, but I could still attribute it to that.

The second time I was in Ohio, I was on my bike and I had somebody on the

bike with me, and I felt it again.

That exact same feeling.

I felt it again, like God touched me, like you're where you're supposed to be.

And I was like, Hmm.

So those two experiences, all that did was gave me some like concrete

footing to move in that direction.

And I've been moving in that direction ever since.

But they were so intense.

It's like, I don't know that I can feel it.

You know, I maybe it's like, uh.

I don't know, how do I explain this?

It's like if when you do something for the first time, it's way more intense.

If you do it for the first time, it's really intense and then if you keep

doing it, that intensity diminishes.

Right, right.

Okay.

So it's kind of like that.

Like I was, I experienced a spiritual thing and in pursuit of it, it's

just diminished to the point where.

It is what it is.

It's like as solid as this table, you know?

So I don't know if that made any sense.

Did that make sense to you?

It it, it did.

You can't, the thing is, like with spiritual experiences, we, it's

something that's outside of our control.

Like, it's the one thing, you know, I feel like, especially out of all

the steps, if you look at everything else that you do, you know, it's

taking an inventory, turning your will and life over character defects.

Um, everything you do.

Gets you a result.

Right.

Okay.

Until that spiritual experience isn't something that we could produce

on our own because it's spiritual.

Right?

The only one, you know, God gives it to us and it happens in divine time.

Hmm.

So I think it's like one of those things, like you can't, you experience it, but

you're not gonna be able to chase it.

You're not gonna be able to, uh, recreate it.

'cause it's not something that you did.

It's something that.

It's right.

That came from your higher power divine.

Right?

It came from Allah.

So it's really, you know, that's how I think it's so, it does make sense,

but at the same time it's something, you know, we, something absolutely

infinite and beautiful touches us.

Right.

Um, touches us.

Um.

And it's really, um, you know, I was talking with one of my, uh,

Muslim brothers about this the other day, about, uh, Ramadan.

Um, we have a, the, we we the holy month of Ramadan, and we fast all month and

it is a, it's a holy month and it's a time where, um, Allah closes the, opens

the gates of Jonah, which we consider heaven closes the gates of hell and all

of the, uh, all the devils, everyone's chained up for the month and there is

a, it, it, it's a a a a month of fa.

You know, we fast every day.

And it is a month of a spiritual, I mean, just the vibe during Ramadan.

It's amazing.

What month is this?

It's Rama, it's Ramadan, it's a, uh, it's on the Islamic calendar.

It's the, uh, one, the name of one of the months.

What is the what?

Where does it fall in a regular calendar?

Uh, it, it moves because it's on a, uh, lunar calendar.

So it it changes every, it changes every year.

Oh, that's interesting.

Um, it moves, it moves a little closer.

Like this year, uh, it ha happened while the time change was happening,

which was a little bit of a challenge when you're fasting.

Um, 'cause we change, we change the clocks a little bit.

Right.

So.

That makes sense.

It, it just adds to the challenge.

Um, but the point is, it's like the vibe of the month.

It's, you feel like this sense of, um.

Spiritual connection and, uh, it, it, it's one of those things that you don't, uh, I,

I didn't even realize it again this year until it was over and then you miss it.

You're like, oh man, I missed that.

You know, just that sense of, um, right.

That sense of connection during the entire month.

And part of me, it, it's, it's weird because it's Ramadan really.

It, it, it shakes up like the, the, uh, worldly, the, the worldly, um, physical

side of myself sees it as a grind because it is like a fasting every day.

It turn, it turns into a grind.

It really does.

Um, and it's really not, uh, there's aspects of it, depending on my disposition

or attitude where it's not very pleasant.

Um, but my higher self, the, uh, you know, spiritually at tuned

part of myself absolutely loves it.

Um, you know, 'cause I, I fast from a lot of things.

I don't, um, I don't play video games.

I don't watch tv.

I don't do anything that I would normally, um, that I would normally,

uh, you know, distract myself with.

Mm-hmm.

I am, you know, I'm reading my Quran, I'm reading, you know,

I'm reading works of scholars.

I'm doing, uh, like really, really just, um, indulging myself in, you

know, sp you know, spiritually rewarding pursuits, um, which is, you know,

as, as a good Muslim, it's something I should be doing all the time.

I, you know.

Uh, I'm human American Muslim too, so it's, you know, we fall under, it's,

it's not, I'm not perfect, right.

Um, however, during Ramadan it's an opportunity where I'm like, okay, this is

really, you know, and it's, it's really, it's a really, really beautiful time.

Well, it's

interesting that you bring it up because fasting has been on my mind a lot.

You know, it's something that I need to do.

Um, I started thinking about it as a way to lose weight, um,

and to get myself healthier.

And I've been dragging my feet on making that commitment to

do the fast that I want to do.

Um, and it keeps coming up and that the fact that it does keep coming

up and the fact that, you know.

I, I wasn't planning on talking about it today, but you,

you never know what's gonna

pop up, right?

So it's like, it just tells me that I really need to make a commitment and

do it.

Just, just try it.

I mean, the, the, the Prophet Hamad piece be upon him would fast, um, quite a bit.

He would, he would fast on Mondays, on Thursdays.

Um, and he was very, uh, used to fast quite, I mean, quite often.

Even when he did eat, uh, it, it was never a lot, right?

He would, um, I. I gotta, I gotta think of the exact, he, he would sit

on the ground and as he would eat, he had his leg up in front of his, like,

kind of, kind of sitting on the ground with his, his leg bent in front of him.

Um, and when his stomach reached where his leg was, he knew he was done.

Yeah.

Knew he was done eating.

So he would take as little as, you know, as little as he could.

He would eat very, very sparingly.

Um, well, it's also, you know, well that's the, I mean, that's

the, the, uh, you know, example of the profit piece be upon him.

Sure, sure.

Um, but with, when it comes to like fasting, it's just start with a day.

Just do it one day.

You don't have to do like any, you know,

I've done the intermittent fasting.

Right.

You know, where you don't eat.

Well, I haven't eaten anything, you know, you don't eat anything for the whole

day except for within a couple hours.

Well, within a couple hours, sorry.

But, uh,

uh, the fact that I want to do is it involves smoking.

You know?

I want to give that up.

Oh, and I want it.

It's, I, I'm not ready to yet.

But Oh, to quit smoking with

cigarettes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's.

You just do it.

You just do it.

I mean, look, I quit.

I, I am a former smoker.

That's why I'm the worst kind of non-smoker.

'cause I'm an ex-smoker so I can smell it.

Right.

I'm freaking obnoxious about it, Don, while smoking again.

I know.

And I'm afraid that's, no, it's really, um, you know, I, I struggled with

cigarettes for a long, long time.

Um, and I finally quit in two, I don't think I've had a cigarette since 2013.

Oh.

And it's just really, you just gotta do it.

Just cold Turkey.

Like

it's the way, it's the way my dad did it.

It's the way my stepdad did it.

They both just.

Done.

Well, it's not, it, it's, it's a lot different than being

addicted to like alcohol.

Okay.

Because it's with cigarettes, like with me, you just have to

overcome one craving at a time.

Yeah.

And the cravings only last like five minutes.

Yeah.

So it's just really, and, and the thing is, is the craving space out

more and more, but it's the same thing.

Like if you could get through the first three days, you're fine.

Mm-hmm.

And I found that it's, you know, get over the cravings for whatever

reason, drinking cranberry juice.

Helps.

Mm.

Um, you know, and just do something, you know, chew gum, do some other things.

Yeah.

And it's, yeah.

Yeah.

I've,

I've been, we, I've talked to, right.

Yeah.

And you gotta start in the morning too.

Like, some people, they'll try to quit smoking and they'll wake, oh,

after I had my first cigarette of the day that I'm like, no, no, no.

Just you had your first last cigarette the night before.

When you wake up, you already have a eight hour headstart outta that three days.

Sure.

Yeah.

Um,

I, but I switched over.

I did, um, cigarettes and I vaped for a, a couple years.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it was really, um, the vaping was really, it was hard to transition

from cigarettes to vaping because there's other things in cigarettes besides the

nicotine that your body gets addicted to.

They put the free base nicotine in cigarettes.

That's why it hits you so quickly.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and there's other, other things, but once I get to the vaping,

then it was easy to wean off.

Um, with the, 'cause it was like you can, uh, regulate how the percentage of

nicotine that's in the vape juice, so.

Right, right.

It was a lot easier to, you know, a lot easier to quit.

Yeah.

Well, you know, that's the next thing on my list, I think.

And.

We're not perfect, but we just try and be better and

right on.

Alright, well, Mr. Rich, listen, we're getting down to the end of the, uh,

getting close to the end of the episode.

Do you have any, um, do you have a message for our listeners, maybe

anyone who's like, uh, feel spiritually dry or maybe trapped by routine

right now that might benefit them?

Did we even talk about routine?

Uh, more or less?

Yeah, we got into it.

I mean, the whole thing was a routine, but do you have any parting shots?

Anything you wanna leave with our uh

uh, well.

I think what what led to our, what led to our discussion initially was, you

know, people feeling trapped in life.

You know, you gotta go to work, you gotta do the drudgery, the humdrum.

I think that it, if you're, if you're in that position, um, pray.

Pray for guidance.

You know, I read this morning that contemplation is the

greatest form of prayer.

Um, you know, I was on track to be a commercial artist, and I, I, I

realized that, um, that wasn't for me.

Uh, it, it, it hampered my freedom to create it.

It it impeded my ability to create because I, now, I have to create this thing that

this large corporation wants me to create.

And I, there's, it's like I have to work within boundaries, you know?

And that's not how I work.

I, I need that freedom to spread out and pull from different

places, unconventional, like, and, uh, I think that's how life

has to be, uh, for me anyway.

It has to be.

Um,

well, it has been and, and it will probably continue to be unconventional.

Uh, as far as society's concerned, um, start small.

You know, we were just talking about me quitting smoking, you know, trying

to extract yourself from a system that, and I, and I'm not talking

about, you know, any kind of weird, you know, rebellious anything.

But if you find yourself in a place that you don't like one step

at a time, stay in the moment.

Try and be a better person today than you were yesterday.

Talk to people, um,

you know, ask for suggestions.

Uh, you know, you, you offered several that I've heard a hundred times

as far as trying to quit smoking.

So, but don't give up.

Don't give up.

You know, continue to work or continue to, to, to pursue something greater than

yourself, whether that be God, Allah.

Or whatever other deities, you know might be available.

Right.

Scott, of your understanding, it's sort of the Exactly.

Aspects of recovery.

Right.

Okay.

Uh, the last thing we usually do is I always ask my guests

for a book recommendation.

Book recommendation.

Yeah.

What have you got?

Um, the Celestine Prophecy by James Redfield.

James Redfield.

Okay.

Celestine Prophecy.

Okay.

Why any, we got a couple minutes left.

Any particular reason?

Yeah, because, uh, that book helped me extremely deal with other people.

It helped me understand other people.

It helped me find empathy for other people.

And I think that's important in a spiritual way.

Um, when you start to understand how people, um.

People want energy from you.

You know, and the ways people go about it.

It's just a really good, really good book.

I, I, I read it.

I think it was 18 when I read it a long time ago.

That's weird.

I thought you were gonna go with Sermon on the Mount.

So I'm Oh, that one too.

I'm kind of surprised with, uh, just, uh, James, James Redfield Outta left field.

I threw you Twister All Rich.

I, I like to thank you for being with us today.

I was an absolutely amazing experience.

Um, thank you, uh, thanks everyone for listening today.

Um, just remember if you guys are struggling, please, please, please,

please, please pick up the phone before you pick up the bottle.

Okay, make, make that phone call.

Just don't, you know, make a good decision.

Make a good decision, folks.

Make good decision.

Please make a good decision.

Alright everyone, that's a wrap for this week.

Uh, we'll catch y'all next week, next Monday with a new episode in s sha Allah.

And thank you everyone for tuning in to another episode

of Path of the Sober Seeker.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.