We’re back with special guest Ann Kelley of the Therapist Uncensored podcast, and folks, she’s dropping knowledge bombs left and right on this one. Our question for today is from a listener in her 60s, getting ready to put herself out there to date after a divorce. We’ve all got so much to say about this one, so let’s get right to the quotes:

Quotes:

The red flag is when we're not paying attention to something that's happening internally or we're dismissing part of our experience.

Our value systems don't have to be identical, but are they aligned enough?

Having a difficult time saying “I’m sorry has a lot more to do with our nervous system than our knowledge.

We don't need to find the perfect person. We need to find somebody that's willing to grow with us

Sometimes a red flag doesn’t mean run, it means explore and learn more.

Recommended Reading:

Secure Relating by Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott

Setting Boundaries that Stick: How Neurobiology Can Help You Rewire Your Brain to Feel Safe, Connected, and Empowered by Juliane Taylor Shore

Share your questions with us at whydoesmypartner.com/contact

Dive in deeper with us at our upcoming workshops.

Learn more at whydoesmypartner.com/events

Welcome to the Why Does My Partner podcast.

I'm Jules.

I'm Vicki.

And I'm Rebecca.

We're your hosts.

We're also couples therapists and messy humans bumbling through our own relationships every day.

We met at a training and our secret sauce is that we and our partners became fast friends between us We have more than 40 years of experience holding

hard relational questions with our clients We're going to bring those questions here

and together.

We're going to take a stab at answering those questions This podcast is not a substitute for couples therapy If something you hear in this podcast stirs something deep within

you about your relationship reach out to a couple Couples therapist in your area.

We also love to hear your questions, so don't forget to go over to why does my partner.com to leave a question of your own.

Here's today's question.

Hey, welcome back.

This is Jules.

This is Vicky, and this is Rebecca, and we are back here again for our miniseries with the lovely Ann Kelley.

One of the amazing hosts over at the Therapist Uncensored podcast and one of the authors of the new book, Secure Relating.

Welcome Anne.

Hi.

I'm excited to be here.

So good to have you back with us.

Yeah.

I was

so excited to have you.

So that first one was so fun.

I'm excited to do another.

Yeah.

You guys are wonderful.

Great question today.

Oh my God.

I love this question.

Should I read it to us?

Okay.

So, um, this listener writes, I love your podcast.

I'm a 62 divorced single CIS female, and I'm putting myself out there to date.

So that's where my interest is.

I'd love to hear your advice on early relationship building and red flags.

Thanks.

Hoo,

hoo, hoo.

This question makes me giddy.

What a fun question.

That's an exciting question.

There's so much to it that's exciting that she's ready to put herself out there and she's thinking about it

and excited, a little nervous, ready to explore that again.

And of course, when we've been hurt, we're looking for me.

What should I be looking out for?

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

That would be red flags and what should I be doing to support a relationship that could be really intentional and go somewhere.

Yeah.

And I just want to

slow us down and name right there that even in that, like, what should I be doing?

What could I be doing?

There's something delicious just in that space.

Just in the space of like wondering

and even more than any advice that we're gonna give and we'll give advice But even more than any of that, I think that wondering offers a beautiful trailhead for some delicious work

So true.

I also think it's wonderful that you're even saying that Rebecca because I didn't call it red flags I Had a list of like non

negotiables that my husband had to be, um, but they were red flags.

It was based on previous relationships where I'd been hurt.

And I got teased by like every single person on the planet that I knew and people, the list was not secret.

So people would see the list.

They're like, this guy doesn't exist.

And you're, I don't even, your expectations are too high.

They were really low expectations by the way.

And Gabriel meets every single one of them.

I was going to say, wait a second.

You

made the list.

And doesn't your husband meet all of the criteria on the list and tell me, Vicky, has that worked out well for you?

It worked out well in that we're very happy.

Um, it did not resolve every possible conflict we would ever have.

So I didn't know what you meant by how is it working for you?

Wait, wait.

Were you hoping it would?

You were, weren't you?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, that's

okay.

Knowing

all,

we're going to fix all the problems in our next election, aren't we?

Well, here's what I knew would

happen.

The issues I'd had in previous dating would not come up again.

Because, like, the biggest stuff with him were, was around religion.

And Gabe and I are the same religion.

So like, yeah, there were reasons that I had it that way.

Um, it, but it like warmed me, Rebecca, to hear you like talking about the positives.

Well, to hear all three of you even mentioning how great this question is.

Cause I was like, where were you guys when I had my own red flags and I got teased for them.

So I do think it's awesome when people are aware.

I read this question as almost more, she's looking for, um,

not subliminal, but like more nuanced red flags.

Like I don't see that she's reading it as like the obvious ones that I had of like non smoking.

Like that was really on my list.

Um, so I think it's good to know the like concrete things that you know.

And then, yeah, I agree.

Good for her that she's looking at, like, what are the more nuanced things that you Um, how am I going to avoid every single fight?

Like, I don't think that's what she's saying.

No, in fact, when I think about intentionally building early relationship, um, I actually think about being careful not to avoid conflict.

I like that.

I like it too.

So actually, I've done a mini series on this.

Yes.

Look back on it if you need to.

Discord builds trust.

It does.

It does.

Oh my gosh.

That's so good.

So you're not like, but I love the question, are you trying to avoid all conflict?

Because I think when we're divorced, right?

That's like, I don't want to do that again.

Totally.

So it makes so much sense that you would be thinking that.

It's so important, especially

early to know like, how do we rumble when something doesn't feel okay?

How do we, how do we move through that?

And how do we.

Take care of ourselves and each other.

Can we trust ourselves to rumble with care?

Oh, yeah

And that feels so important too because When when it comes to building trust and a relationship trusting that we could have Differences that we could have a disagreement that we

could have a little rumbly moment and that we could treat each other Well during it and that we could come back together into peace and harmony into expansion and that that rumble didn't taint

something in a permanent way as part of the building trust that we could handle our things together.

Yeah.

And so I think sometimes when we're in early dating, we can get to the space where we maybe don't say some of the stuff that's on our minds because we're wanting to avoid conflict.

So when you're, when you're thinking about early relationship building, what I would say is Don't be afraid to be you.

And if rumbles happen and conflict happens, then that's going to give you a lot of information.

And assuming you all make it through those early moments, could help you actually expand and build trust.

Totally.

As you're building this new thing.

I'm thinking

too.

Yeah, go ahead and go ahead.

I was gonna say, you know, it's so interesting as you say that, cause I, Every bit of what you just said, I agree with, and yet I had this butt in my head.

Mm.

Tell me the butt.

Share that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm wanting to know if it was a cute one.

Of course you weren't.

Are you?

I, I think what I'm thinking of is that when we're in the early stages of relationships, What sometimes can happen is, you know, we're full of all sorts of, we're actually on heroin.

Mm hmm.

Mm hmm.

Right?

We are so full of the good flowing oxytocin and serotonin and excitement.

So we've got all this going in our body that sometimes when we are having conflict, we We dismiss it and we don't listen to it, too.

Yeah.

Right?

It's like, I think there's the risk of the other side.

There's a risk of, oh, I can't have any conflict.

And I love what you were saying.

So I agreed with everything.

But the thought was, we love both and here.

Glorious.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is definitely both and it's like this thing about weight.

We have to also remember that at the beginning of a relationship we so idealize somebody and we so want that.

And in that, when we idolize them, we tend to like lose ourselves also.

Yeah.

And like, so maybe we're having these like, She was saying like, what are some early warning signs?

And I think how we've come conflict is so important, but it's so easy to ignore early signs because we're like, Oh, this is just, this is fine.

And

What do you think?

Yeah, it's, it's kind of like, I think that's a good point.

It's, it's less like there are specific red flags and more like the red flag is when we're not paying attention to something that's

happening internally or we're dismissing part of our experience.

And I think there's something really interesting in this question too.

I just really want to name that goes with this.

And that, I think it's what excites me about this question.

I think dating at 62, I'm imagining.

I'm 49 right now, so I don't know what it's like to date at 62, but I'm imagining that dating at 62 is really different than dating at 20 or 30 something, right?

That there's, you have a different lived experience, you have a different self knowledge, you know who the F you are in a different way, right?

And it's like, if you could sit in that self knowledge while you go into dating.

Right?

You're not like at 20 something, at 30 something when you're dating, you're still figuring you out and figuring you out in mirror with another person.

But at 62, you know some stuff.

You know who you are, you know what feels good to you.

And you don't want to, and you really know what you don't, like you were saying, Vicki, I know you're not at that age, but when you were saying like, you know, you don't.

Don't want to have you can see some of the conflicts like religion and those overt things and instead of going.

Oh, that's okay I'm just gonna ignore that.

We'll figure it out.

You're gonna be smart enough to go No, I want somebody who at least has these similar beliefs and doesn't smoke and these things and I'm not gonna compromise that Yeah, I think it's 62.

You're not You're not as willing to let go of yourself as you are when you're younger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which makes me think of, okay, what are the red flags?

What are the subtle red flags?

And one of them would be major value system clashes.

So you turn on yourself.

And I wonder if this person you're dating knows themself and can you all have some of those discoveries together about how our value

systems don't have to be identical, but are they aligned enough?

Yeah.

That this is good.

Those things don't just go away.

Right.

It's true.

I mean, you can kick it down the line as far as you want, but they really don't go away.

And I've seen it.

I actually haven't seen that stuff show up in my office.

I've seen that in my personal life many, many times.

So people do need to tune into that.

Like I, Jules, I agree with you.

You don't have to be identical,

but like aligned enough.

Aligned enough.

Yeah.

Aligned enough.

And when you rumble,

it goes well.

Like what you were saying earlier.

I love what you're like, the part about if you rumble, you're going to have rumbles.

And then how do those rumbles go?

Like does it feel like you're collaborating?

To me, a red sign is when you can't rumble well.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

Cut off or you get disconnected, you know, and, and especially just, you know, once we get pretty set in our sixties, you know, that's the, we kind

of have some patterns that are pretty ingrained and how do you rumble?

And for me, the big word for me is collaboration.

Totally.

Do you feel like.

When you're with somebody that they're willing to collaborate rather than kind of power over power under.

Yeah, that would be my red signs like my red flags.

Totally.

I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I was thinking about listening, right?

Like, is this someone that can listen?

Or is this someone that you're able to listen to and be influenced by?

Can it go in both directions?

And I think that also is collaboration, right?

That's moving towards a more power with kind of way of being.

Um, but if, if you're with someone and listening is tough, that's information.

Yeah.

Yep.

I was thinking too about when you're looking for, Oh, what, what would a collaborative rumble feel like?

It probably feels.

It's more like we are a partnership tackling a problem together rather than we are in conflict with each other trying to change each other or trying to, um, uh, be right.

Yeah.

Like the naming, naming the other person as a problem would not be collaborative.

It's

more like we're partners working through a hard moment together and the hard moment is the problem, not each other.

Right.

So I'd look out for that.

The other thing I was having is accountability.

How accountable are they?

Yeah.

If we all make mistakes, you're going to make lots, they're going to make lots.

That's just life.

Can we repair?

Can we take ownership of it?

Can we name a little bit?

About what maybe went wrong or what drove that inside or can we say, sorry, so

many people

can't say,

yeah, that's so true.

I'm

sorry.

Cause Gabe used to be one of those.

That's why I say it like that.

And he absolutely does now.

Absolutely.

But for like the first 10 years, I think he didn't.

And we, we got through it, so I'm not gonna say it was, I, well, okay, it wasn't a deal breaker and it wouldn't have been, um, but I didn't know how much he didn't until

much, like we were already married and stuff, that didn't show up when we were dating.

So um, I, it, whether it was red flag or not would have been irrelevant because I didn't know.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

It sucks.

Yeah, that would suck, but I don't even know, I can see like you are looking for these really deep values needed to align, but you know, we're never going to find

anybody that doesn't have some of that old attachment, implicit history that blocks us.

Right?

Right.

Because actually, honestly, having a difficult time saying, I'm sorry, has a lot to do with more than our nervous system, than our knowledge.

Yes.

Say more.

Yes.

Stretch that out.

Oh, yeah.

There, because, because I think the two things that are sticking out for me when you say that and one is, one is, Oh, okay.

This could be an early learning pattern and to earn secure is a real possibility.

So there's a lot of hope, even if somebody has difficulty around.

So could you talk a little bit about both of those?

Yeah, and that's what I'm hearing, Vicki, you experience is like part of saying, I'm sorry is a level of vulnerability That you have to really acknowledge in your own

body that you did something and some of us Especially those who all of us can struggle sometimes Acknowledging when we've done something, depending on what our history is, right?

I mean, just what we've done too, but if we've been raised that we need to kind of be perfect or that we kind of always have to know the answer and if we, again, both

leaning blue or red, you can have a hard time saying, I'm sorry, but leaning blue, you have a little bit harder time sometimes, um, because there's underlying shame.

That gets attached, that, and so, but it's unconscious.

It's unconscious.

You don't know that you're feeling shame.

So to actually say the word brings some threat in your body, and it's a very deep level of intimacy.

And what I love about your story is like you held tight to that was important, but you didn't just see that and go run.

I would hate to think anytime you see something in somebody, you're like, this isn't going to be the right relationship.

Right?

Mm hmm.

And it's somebody like, he, he moved.

That's like, it's secure relating conversations are secure.

And then that's what I love about relationships.

We actually heal and move our body in relationships.

We don't need to find the perfect person.

We need to find somebody that's willing to grow with us.

Totally.

Totally.

I love

that.

Say it again.

We need to find someone who's willing to grow with us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to me, the biggest red sign would be somebody that is like, I'm all done.

I'm so good.

You know, and it's like, really feels like that they're a done deal.

And that if, if they've made a mistake that that's really, which is different saying, I'm sorry, having a hard time saying I'm sorry, doesn't mean that they don't self reflect and like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

It's a great point.

To me, the biggest sign is if somebody hasn't spent and doesn't see the need for ever to self reflect.

That would be my biggest red flag, I think, for me.

I love that red flag.

Can they watch their own

mind?

Are they curious about what's happening inside of them?

Can they explore growth where they're growing?

And will they grow with us, grow with me, right, or if you see a sign that they're always trying to fix you, like, that would be

a sign, like, really, you'd be better off if you do A, B, and C.

And it's not, I wouldn't say it's a red flag to turn around, but it would be something to pay attention to.

To pay attention to, yeah.

I'm thinking too of like, inside of what we're talking about, there's also the ability to kind of like, be with The, the emerging experience of feeling, right?

There's this, because what happens in the places where we're more shut down to this experience is that we're kind of saying no to those opportunities to even get to know

ourselves or to get to know our partners or for our partners to get to know us, right?

Like the lack of vulnerability.

is like the shutting down of those emerging experiences.

So somebody, I, I'm, I'd be curious to be with somebody who can ride those waves, even if they're feeling a wave of shame or a wave of remorse or regret or some other kind of big, hard feeling.

That's cool.

We can be with hard things together, right?

I want to know that I'm with someone that we can do hard things together.

That's, yes,

yeah, it's just, yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This question excites me so much.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

No, you.

I would just take it as something Stan Tackin said one time in a training that I was with him and I really agree with him.

He said another, another thing to do is early enough, if you're really looking for red, red flags, of course we don't want to look so much for red flags.

We're not present.

Yeah.

Right.

Mm hmm.

That's one thing.

Right.

I guess I got distracted with my own thought.

But sometimes we can look for red flags and then we're not really in the experience.

We're analyzing the experience.

And so then it's really hard for you to feel how you feel about somebody because you're like looking for all the warning signs.

And this doesn't sound like her, but, but, but one of the things Stan Tatkin recommended is that when you're dating somebody and you've decided.

You'll like them.

But before you've decided you really like them, introduce them to your friends

because

your friends are going to see stuff.

Yes.

And you're going to see how they get along.

Yeah.

If they, if they.

It's an.

Yeah.

I'm thinking of it like an energetic odor almost kind of thing, right?

Like, like when you bring new people around, your friends, they know something about how they feel in this person's presence.

And you can read that off of them and it gives you more information.

Yeah.

And you want to do that before you like really get to it.

Because if you, if you're like in it and I have chosen,

then if I tell you that this doesn't feel good to me, you're not going to hear me because you've already

chosen.

Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah.

You're not going to hear it.

Once you're really in it, you're not going to hear it.

You're going to rationalize for them, you're going to ignore them, or you're going to get mad at them.

Right?

And so if you do it before you do it, you like them enough to introduce them to your friends, but you don't like them so much.

You can stay in that reflective part that you need to make a decision before your chemistry

is,

yeah.

I was just thinking too, you're doing another thing in there where you're being transparent with the people in your life.

Oh, yeah.

Right?

Like you're, you're not hiding something from the people that are in your inner circle.

And that also feels important.

It feels

integrating to me.

Like it feels real.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm thinking how important it is as we're talking about this presence.

So when you're talking about, ooh, do you have any advice for how to, to be in my early relationship building space?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It would

be a lot about presence.

Yeah.

Yeah

an open plane of possibility a lot of curiosity Not just towards what you're experiencing in this other person, but also towards you your body What's getting pulled in you with this person?

What are those little subtle?

shifts inside of you so really big presence and curiosity towards you and big presence of curiosity towards them so that you can catch those red flags if they are coming.

And that doesn't mean run.

It may mean explore.

That's right.

And learn more.

Yeah.

Reflect.

That's so true.

Yeah.

And I think

there's this part of us too, that given that she's divorced, right?

So there's one thing about finding a relationship when you're 62.

It's another thing when you're divorced and we don't know the history of this, this person.

But it's funny when you were saying that earlier, Vicki, that you kind of didn't want to repeat.

So you thought of what you didn't want to repeat and that was what was on your list.

I was thinking, oh, no, but then you said it beautifully, like, no, it was these really particular values and things.

And I'd love that.

But I think sometimes one thing I want to say is like, don't look for the opposite of what you were thinking.

That's going to be the answer.

Right?

Oftentimes we're trying to not date our ex and that externalizes the whole experience.

Yeah.

Good point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So

good luck with your dating.

I am so thrilled.

I, I feel like, oh yay, I'm on this journey with you.

I hope your next date goes really well.

Have fun.

Yeah, totally.

I want you to

totally have a blast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

We'll see you all next time.

Take care.

Bye bye.

Bye

bye.

That wraps up this week's episode.

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