In this enlightening episode of the Pivot Podcast, Westina Matthews, a spiritual director with a background in Wall Street, challenges our understanding of contemplative practices. Hosts Dwight Shiley and Alicia Granholm explore Westina's unique journey and her innovative approach to integrating contemplative living into our fast-paced world.

Westina offers a fresh perspective on contemplative practices, expanding beyond traditional methods to include diverse activities that foster spiritual connection. She provides practical advice for incorporating these practices into daily life, addressing collective grief, and nurturing hope in challenging times. This episode is essential listening for anyone seeking to deepen their spiritual journey and create more resilient, faith-filled communities through the power of contemplative practices.

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

• "Soul Food: Nourishing Essays on Contemplative Living and Leadership" by Dr. Westina Matthews (ed.)
• "This Band of Sisterhood: Black Women Bishops on Race, Faith, and the Church" by Dr. Westina Matthews
• "Dancing from the Inside Out: Grace-Filled Reflections on Growing Older" by Dr. Westina Matthews 

YouTube Video URL: https://youtu.be/TxoptR85htk.

Westina: I'm still Westina Matthews retired managing director from Merrill Lynch. That hasn't changed at all. So I still have and all of the degrees, but they also see me, my husband said today, I love that you're so happy. You're just so happy. And I'm like, I am. He said, no matter what's going on, you're just sort of happy about everything. And I want to say that's a nod to having a contemplative practices and a contemplative life, because it doesn't mean that things don't get hard. It doesn't mean that there aren't disappointments. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes even get angry. But the contemplative brings me back to who I am and whose I am. And that's what. That's what it's all about for me to always remember who I was at the moment that I took my first breath. Created, yes, in my mother's womb with my father's contribution. But it is that soul of who I am and whose I am. How can I not be joyful about that?

Dwight: Hello everyone! Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how the church can faithfully navigate a changing world. I'm Dwight Zscheile and I'm joined by Alicia Granholm.

Alicia: Hello.

Alicia: One of the key pivots that we are exploring in this podcast is the shift from a focus on making institutional church members to making disciples of Jesus, or we might say, apprentices of a Jesus shaped life. Now, this isn't a matter of just getting the right ideas about God, although of course, ideas do matter, but more so of practices in community that help us abide in the presence of God as the primary relationship in our lives, and express God's love to our neighbors. It's truly a whole life process.

Dwight: That's right, Alicia, and this is why we are so excited to welcome Doctor Westina Matthews to the Pivot podcast today. Doctor Matthews specializes in contemplative spiritual practices and spiritual direction. She's an educator, author, public speaker, spiritual director, professor, and workshop and retreat leader who has led and served in a wide range of contexts over the years. For the past 12 years, she has taught contemplative spiritual direction at the General Theological Seminary in New York City and the center for Christian Spirituality. She's also served as a managing managing director in a major Wall Street firm, and those two things don't usually go together. Her most recent books are Soul Food Nourishing Essays on Contemplative Living and Leadership, which came out last year. This band of sisterhood, black women, bishops on race, faith and the church and dancing from the inside out. Grace filled Reflections on Growing Older, which came out in 2019. Doctor Matthews, welcome to pivot.

Westina: Thank you. I'm excited to be here with you all.

Dwight: So tell us a bit about your ministry journey, which has has been very interesting and wide ranging. Can you share with us a bit about what led you in particular to focus on contemplative practices and spiritual direction?

Westina: Mhm.

Westina: Yeah, I was thinking about that. I know we're recording this, but it's the day after the 23rd anniversary of nine over 11 and I was working down on Wall Street at that time, uh, right in the World Financial Center. Anyone who knows about New York City, it's right next to the World Trade Center. And I remember running down 34 flights and over the Brooklyn Bridge in 45 minutes. I say, Jackie Joyner-Kersee had nothing on me watching the towers coming down, watching men jumping from those top floors of the tower, wondering what the heck is going on. And I think when you're in those life and death moments, it's kind of a wake up call. Like, what is this all about? And at the time, I was attending a Presbyterian church and I was having what I thought was pastoral counseling. But I now have come to understand his mentor was Howard Thurman, an amazing mystic. And so what I was really experiencing was spiritual direction. And I was meeting every week, and it was really a lifeline for me. And I began talking about because a corporate woman of color, um, who is seeking And faithful began to talk about the faith of a mustard seed. And people start inviting me because, you know, you've got Women's Day programs and all of this. And I would go out and speak, and then what would happen is that men and women who were in corporate would come and say, I'd like to meet with you. And I'm like, why? And they said, well, I want to talk more with you. And I've learned since that when people say they want to meet with you, that's one of the clues that perhaps you're being called to spiritual direction. By then, I was starting to attend Trinity Church, Wall Street, down right near where this all happened, because the doors were always open at that church, and I began to talk to the clergy there, and they suggested that if I wanted to get more experience in spiritual direction, because after all, I got a doctorate in a couple of post-docs. So that means I must have to study this, right? Isn't that it just just comes to me. They suggested the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation that was founded by Tilden Edwards, an Episcopal priest. And I said yes, mostly because it was distance learning. This was before that was in. And when I went for my first residency, ten days with Shalem and my cohort, I experienced contemplative, and I felt like I was home. I didn't have a name for it. I didn't come to Shalem because it was known as a contemplative spiritual training. But I felt home and began to live into what it meant to have a contemplative life and to be a contemplative leader. So that's a long way of saying how I came to it, but it was a pivotal moment in my life that changed the direction. I think the other thing that I would say is that I always talk to directors. I do a lot of spiritual direction with clergy or those who are in seminary, whether on the clergy track or not, about what is your call? What is your call? And the call isn't to be the best priest or to be the best lay leader. That's not your call. What is the call? What is it that is just there within your soul? Because you're going to have to be true to that call in your life. For me, it took three years to figure it out. And it is to love, to teach, to write, to speak. That's it. And it has taken me through Merrill Lynch going up to Harvard for a year on a fellowship after retired, working for the Jackie Robinson Foundation, teaching at General Theological Seminary, writing books. It wasn't about the business card. It was about my call. And I think that the contemplative life is is is a way for me to live in and answer my call. That was a long answer, but just somehow it all comes together for me in some sort of way that keeps its life giving and it keeps my own spiritual formation and deepening is bringing this all together.

Alicia: Westina, thank you so much for sharing some of your story. It's really inspiring to listen to and and encouraging as well. I think for so many people, even in ministry that find themselves, um, captured at different points in their life, and in curious and wondering and deeply wondering right about their call and what God has called them to as well. I'm wondering if you could define for us, uh, how you would define holy listening, and can you share why you believe that it's important in our fast paced world today? Yeah.

Westina: I, uh, I'm going to quote Howard Thurman. Uh, he said how good it is to center down, to sit quietly and see oneself passed by. And it is in the stillness that one can begin to listen from the spiritual heart to the spiritual heart of another, to hear the voice of the genuine. I love that how good it is to center down the centering down is how you then can experience holy listening. Um, because for me it was I was taught it's three steps. The first step was that you show up in your hush, and the second is you slow down and you listen, and the third is you just be, you just be. And in that experience, then as Thurman and his how good it is to center down meditation, I really invite everyone to you can Google it, you can find it. He ends with a deeper note, which only the stillness of the heart makes clear. It moves directly to the core of our being our questions, our answered, our spirits refreshed, and we move back into the traffic of our daily round. Holy listening. It's that you. You hush, you listen and you be.

Dwight: That is such good news for people to hear in this moment. You know, this week I was just at a practicing the way conference out in Portland, Oregon, and John Mark Comer was speaking and he said, you know, a lot of churches have thought that when people gather for worship or for whatever they're doing, that what we need to do as leaders is kind of get them all excited and, you know, jazzed up. And whether it be really upbeat music or, you know, whatever's going on in the program. And he said, you know, people right now, like the culture is always jazzing them up and getting them excited. And people are just exhausted and tired of all of that. So when we gather as Christian community, we need to abide. We need to listen. And I think your invitation to us is so powerful around those steps of holy listening. And I'm thinking particularly for church leaders, many of whom find themselves really struggling with being, you know, again, exhausted, burned out, tired of trying to sort of keep this machine of program church or whatever it looks like running all the time. So I wonder if you can speak a little bit about contemplative practices then as a, as a, as a vehicle, as a structure to go from simply having this aspiration of, yeah, I know I should be closer to God, I know I should abide, but unless that gets translated into behaviors that are habitual over time, it's probably not going to happen. So talk with us about contemplative practices as this way to experience renewal and deepening.

Westina: Well, first let's talk about my understanding of contemplative because I think that's important. It's about love and a sense of of of knowing and unknowing and mystery. And I love Richard Rohr because he talks about contemplative doesn't mean sitting on a mat in some uncomfortable position for 20 minutes, you know, in, in silence. That doesn't necessarily that it can be a way to be contemplative. And I always say to folks, you know, the Scripture says, be still and know that I am. It didn't say be silent, and so that the contemplative doesn't mean that you have to be silent. Centering prayer certainly is one that I. I enjoy, but it doesn't have to be that you you do that kind of practice. And there are thousands of ways. Rumi's used to say there are a hundred ways to be to, to be still and kiss the ground. I say there are thousands of ways. And in that stillness, we have to de-westernizing what that means, because in the Western tradition, it does mean a certain kind of be still, be quiet. Here's how we're going to do it. And yet my understanding of it includes stillness practices such as meditation, centering. It can be generative, which is the lectio divina, the visualization. But there's also creativity. There's music, there's singing, there's art, there's journaling. Then there's the activity of the pilgrimages and and also vigils and marches. And then there's relational such as storytelling, which is really become very much a contemplative practice, particularly today, as we're trying to create that beloved community and get to know one another. Let's tell one another our stories. And then there's movement, which is yoga. It's tai chi, it's qigong, it's forest bathing, you name it. There's so much out there. And then there are the rituals, the ceremonies. And so you can see there's a wide array of what it means to be contemplative, because it is that life giving and restoration. So when clergy who are feeling really burned out, I love the book about rest is resistance. Sometimes rest is a contemplative practice to give yourself permission to just restore and have your own kind of Sabbath. And it doesn't have to be the Sabbath. My father was a minister, A.M.E. minister. He always took Monday off. After Sunday he was done. Was Monday off? It doesn't have to be a Monday or a Friday or a Saturday. It is also the rest. It's also can be contemplative so that with that array it's beyond any religion, any particular belief. And it is really so open to what it is that we're refresh and renew you. Uh, we have a I know a young rector, and she does, um, what is that skating you do that is competitive with other women? That's her contemplative to practice, I love it, I love it that that she's using her body that way as a way to restore herself that is contemplative. It's a place where she can just be in her body and experience and release. And so I, I really want to encourage lay and clergy to be open to the possibilities of what it means to have a contemplative practice. And there's a difference between rule of life and rhythm of life. Okay. And often in clergy, you're you're encouraged to have a rule of life. And if you're in lay ministry, maybe that as well. And there's nothing wrong with having a rule of life, but a rhythm of life would then call upon your your head, your mind, your body. I always say your body is your first spiritual director and your heart. So where is it that you can experience the divine love? Where does that take you? Home? I mean home within yourself. And what would that look like for you? I also want to speak to something that you were talking about, Dwight. What I'm finding. And there's research on it. There's certainly the young, the nones and dones that actually are very spiritual. They don't really want to be a part of organized church. Church has harmed them, or they're suspicious of church. But I'm also finding those who are in the last act of their life season. They are seeking spirituality, too, because it's like, wow, Peggy Lee, is this all there is? If this is it, how am I going to be an experience? And if I say I believe in life everlasting. What's that going to look like and how can I experience some of it now? And so I see I see those tales of growth and opportunity in, in church and non-church. And the other thing I'll say is that churches harm clergy too. We never talk about that. It's harmed church. The church has harmed organized religion, has harmed clergy, too. And so contemplative practices can also be healing. How do you soothe that soul? Um, and that contemplative. I don't know if I answered your question, but that's just where I came with this. So, you know, it's spirit led. But but that that's what I'm thinking about when you say, what are some of the what are some of the practices will you figure out is for you, for me, for me? Yes, I have centering prayer. Most mornings with a group get together 365 days a week. I can't tell you. I do it every day, but four out of five mornings I'm going to be there with them. It's very helpful for me. That's that kind of get your day started integrated. But I love to ride my bike. I go ride my bike for 8 or 11 miles and it's not a racing or anything. It's my time to talk with God. I'm just pedaling and I'm just having a conversation and I'm just releasing and I'm out there in the nature. But I also love to walk. And when I walk, I'm listening to music and I'm listening to all kinds of music. Right. Uh, growing up in the black church, I love gospel. It gets me going. But I also love contemplative, I love classical, I'm listening to music, and I am just talking, talking, talking. And I'm glad I've got those earbuds in because people think I'm singing. I'm not. I'm having a conversation. But I'm also taking time to listen, to hear what the Holy Spirit has to say to me and some of my best ideas. Resolution, forgiveness, healing has come through doing those kinds of things, as opposed to, um, sitting down and using my mind. And clearly my mind is important, but I need to be out and experiencing things.

Dwight: So I want to just follow up on a couple of threads of what you shared. It's so rich. And first is just, you know, you're helping remind us of how the Western understanding of the person is so bifurcated, right? Um, between mind and body, which is so foreign to what we find in the worldview of Scripture and Jesus's, um, you know, Jewish background, which is so much more integrated and holistic. And I think that's really important right now. And I think people are yearning for that very kind of integration. And the fact that you're naming riding your bike as a contemplative practice or walking, that's so helpful for people, because I think people intuitively often experience the presence of God in those activities. But then they may think, no, I have to. That's a different category from sitting in prayer in a kind of formal way. Um, but, but so I want to just ask you about one other thing, though, because I think partly what's happening right now is people have come to look outside the church for spiritual growth, because so much of how we've done church is not focused actually around cultivating spiritual growth directly. Right? It might have other many other good things. So I wonder if you could speak just a bit to that dilemma. Really. It's an opportunity, I think. So if so many of our listeners are leading local churches And what are some things that they might do in order to actually bring some of this spiritual growth work more to the heart of congregational life.

Westina: You know, I'm chair of Spiritual Directors International, and one of the things that we're seeing and we have over 6800 members worldwide. These are members and their spiritual directors, and they're also the formation programs. But we also have the seekers, the ones that are searching, that are looking, and that some of what we're doing, you know, the environment. Think about, you know, climate control, what's going on with the climate and the environment. That's why I said the forest bathing, the music. There's so many different ways that we can reach the congregation and in service, you know, service is so important so that we're reaching out and embracing not only those that are in there coming into the church, but those that are outside of the walls but are showing them by example. What we mean when we say beloved community, I think is so important. Um, ritual. I just brought it up to my own little parish here on Skidaway Island around grief, because several of my directors are dealing with grief and it's a hard time for them. And one mentioned that they had a card for their sister who died and they didn't know what to do with the card. And I said, oh, wow. You know, when my father died, I had a Father's Day card, and I wondered what to do with that card. And my aunt said, oh, we'll send it to Uncle Roland. And I did, but it wasn't the same. And then I thought ritual as a contemplative practice. What would happen if we invited not only those in our in the parish, but in the community. Do you have a card or a note for a loved one? Or maybe it's I forgive you. You know, it may not. It doesn't have to be a love note. And what would happen if, during the service, you could put it all in a box that nobody would see? And then you put it in the chapel and just invite everybody in the community. If you want to drop your card in your note, you could put it there. And then what have we did on All Saints Day? A ritual where we burn them. Nobody's read them. But then we can come together as a way that, okay, I now have been able to acknowledge life after death. That is a continuation that we're all spiritual beings and the promise of the love. And here we are in a beloved community doing it. What would that be like to offer something like that? To me, that's a contemplative practice that we could extend to the community who we are in a way that would meet them where they are, not in saying, here's how we do it, come do it the way we do it. No. What are you going to do with that card or that note? Um, how can we help you get some closure with your grief? Because there's a lot of grief going on in the world right now. There's a lot of grief going on. And it's not just from Covid. Of course, there was that, too. And particularly for clergy, they had to put their grief on hold because they were so busy ministering to others. And so there is there is grief that is unresolved. And, um, I think that's one place. And then, um, justice. What does justice mean? Richard Pryor used to say justice means just us, because just us is going to jail and going to prison. And we laugh about it. But it's so true. And how can we be church, not just invite people to church, right? How can we be the living, loving example and presence of the love of Jesus Christ?

Alicia: I love that you brought up the grief. I think that is something, uh, last night our family, as well as the rest of the families that, um, are part of the elementary school that both of our sons go to, found out that the school will be turned into an early childcare center next year, which is amazing. And it means that anyone who is in K through five next year will be going to a different school. And for our family, this is the first year we were part of this school, so we don't have as much of a history with it as do the rest of the families, and my husband and I couldn't help but wonder, okay, God, why might we be part of this school for this year as we are able to see, right, just the amount of grief that this community that we feel like we just stepped our toe into, but will be collectively experiencing for the next year, um, particularly for families that have been part of the school for years and years and will experience a big change. And I think there are, um, so many changes that have really happened, not not because of Covid, but really since Covid, that that collective grief and the different ways that people are experiencing it in community, and especially when so many have left churches and left places where they were able to be part of communal spiritual practices. How do they, you know, engage in, in, uh, in working through their grief in ways that are really meaningful and helpful and helpful and not just holding on to it? Um, I think it's it's just it's such an important, um, area of life that many people don't have helpful tools for working through today.

Westina: That's what I was going to say.

Westina: It's about hope. I've been invited to write a chapter for a book which is on prayer and justice, and I've decided I'm going to write about Hope is resistance. Hope is resistance. Uh, because sometimes it feels so hopeless.

Westina: When.

Westina: You see what's going on in the world or in your own life, and you think everything is wonderful, and then something happens that's so unexpected, whether it's a school closing or health or death or loss of job or that changes, nothing stays the same. And how do you hold on to that hope? And to me, that is a way in to contemplative practices, which we're talking about. How do I have hope? How do I find that within myself? Uh, to hold on to and then reach out and share it with others so that we can have that shared commonality of love? And it doesn't matter about the color of your skin, your sexual identity, gender identity, where you were born, what language you speak doesn't matter, You know, there are some basic things that we all share. And how do we do that? And that's to me why I continue to teach, speak, write, talk about contemplative living and why we need contemplative leaders, lay and ordained to be that beacon of hope.

Dwight: So your most recent book, Soul Food, includes a lot of voices and perspectives that aren't always included in the spiritual formation conversation. Um, lots of different cultural perspectives. Lived experiences there. Can you share a bit about some of the key insights from that book with some of our listeners so that they can, you know, get get some of the rich wisdom that's in that book.

Westina: Yeah. I think.

Westina: You know, the the book is because we the I was the lead editor with the executive director and the COO, but we believe that there is a divine diversity in our world, that it is really a gift and it's divine. And we want everyone to be open to the, the endless possibilities. And so bringing those new voices in so that it was about whether it was about God's pronouns being queer, uh, being Chinese American in the United States and being faithful someone from South Africa talking about her own experience. Someone even talked about 12 step and and as a contemplative approach and being out in nature. And I mean an aging. It was just these amazing, just just beautiful Tapestry of voices. New voices to. Because we always. You know, I've already given you some of the, the the voices that we always quote, but there's some new voices, new contemplatives out there that makes it more accessible to all ages and, and globally about how should I think about this? Not what should I think about, but how should I think about this? You remind me. I wrote somewhere about after. It was only a few years after nine over 11, and the the United States was able to capture the one who created this whole thing. And and it was announced that he had been murdered and killed. And a young girl, she was only 11 years old. I was at somebody's home and they were saying that they were wondering how to tell her. And that morning they said, here's what happened. And she said, how should I think about this? What wisdom. And so the book was really about how should I think about how can I think about this? How should I think about this? And so it I think it opens up when we say we are contemplatives. Who's we? Who's we? And to keep that up much wider now, I'd be remiss not to say, for those who are interested in the books or soul food Nourishing essays on Contemplative Living and leadership, it's thanks to a wonderful grant from Trinity Church, Wall Street, that all proceeds go back to Shalem to support their DEI initiatives. And there's a study guide that each of the contributors have written questions. And so for your own personal work, or you want to do it in your church or in your.

Westina: Your.

Westina: Book study. You can get that free on church publishing. You can just download it. So there's lots of opportunities to have and to be engaged in the conversations. And I want to say that some of the people were very brave. The one who wrote about being queer did not want her name on it because of her position. What kind of world do we live in that but she wanted to talk about it. Wanted? She was brave enough to write about it, but her name is not there. It's initials. But that's what I'm saying. The world that I believe that Jesus came for us was open to everyone. Everyone. And how do we love our neighbor, even though we may not agree with them on everything? Uh, and so I think that I'm hoping that that's what this book is doing. But most importantly, I just wanted to introduce some new voices. Not the same old, same old. I wanted some new voices. We have a whole new group of people out there. Let's hear from them. Not dismissing those who are living or have gone ahead of us because they were great minds that Thomas Merton's. And you know, we can go through those names, but it's a whole new world. And how do we reach them? And that's what the book was here for.

Alicia: Thank you so much for sharing more about it. I'm sure a number of our listeners will be excited to check out that resource. I am curious if there are some common misconceptions about contemplative practices that you've encountered.

Westina: Well, besides that, it is only sitting and being still. I think the stereotype is that it's older white men and women who are the contemplatives. And I would say that especially for spiritual direction, it is very often once they've retired or, you know, or near retirement that they then begin to they have more time, leisure time to explore that. But there are young contemplatives out there, many different voices from all over the world. And so I think that that is one of the misconceptions that's sort of that westernisation that we talked about. But it's also about age or what does a contemplative look like? You know what? Who is that? It's not someone with robes, necessarily, who's living in a monastery or is doing all of that. And there's nothing wrong with that. Please understand. But there are. You might be surprised who is a contemplative if we embrace that broader understanding. I think people who knew me earlier in my career are a little scratching their head about, what is this? That she's she's now a contemplative. What does that mean? But they're open to understanding because they've known me and I'm still Westina Matthews, retired managing director from Merrill Lynch. That hasn't changed at all. So I still have and all of the degrees, but they also see me. My husband said today, I love that you're so happy. You're just so happy. And I'm like, I am. He said, no matter what's going on, you're just sort of happy about everything. And I want to say that's a nod to having a contemplative practices and a contemplative life, Because it doesn't mean that things don't get hard. It doesn't mean that there aren't disappointments. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes even get angry. But the contemplative brings me back to who I am and whose I am. And that's what. That's what it's all about for me. To always remember who I was at the moment that I took my first breath. Created, yes, in my mother's womb with my father's contribution. But it is that soul of who I am and whose I am. How can I not be joyful about that?

Dwight: Well, that's a wonderful place for us to begin to wrap up around, but we have really one last question for you, which is, is there one contemplative practice that you would encourage our listeners to try this week?

Westina: I'm glad you warned me about this because I had to think about it. Okay. What will be the one? But I think this is the one that's probably the most accessible and is easiest. And it is actually inspired by Brother David, who I think is 98 or 90 years old now 99, retired in Argentina. But he started Grateful Living and um, and I would say this is it and that the step one is to stop and take a deep breath. And whether life is challenging or life is joyful, it's just remember to stop. It doesn't matter what's going on. And then look, look around. 60s 60s have a clock. Watch the hand. 60s and then look and have some way of saying thank you. Thank you for this moment. Thank you for this moment. Um, I think that's one very simple contemplative practice if you want to use your body. Okay. I'm going to give you two. But if you want to use your body, the one that I love. And I've done this at the college for bishops, I've done it with bishops. I've done it with clergy. I've done it with lay. It's a body prayer. And you just take your hands and you offer up to the divine your gratitude, your cares. You receive the blessings, you bring them into yourself, and you share it with the world. It's really simple. You just go up, up, up and in. Do it to music. Do it while you're walking. Do it. I mean, I do it to music all the time. I know people are wondering when I'm walking what I'm doing. They think it's some sort of arm exercise, you know, to keep me, but it's just something very wonderful. And with the music hold, if you're here, just hold it. If that's where you need to be, if you need to be here, hold it. And then we're here. But those are two very different kinds of contemplative practices. Uh, certainly the one with the 60s. When I'm doing spiritual direction with someone, I usually do a little short poem or something. And then I said, okay, 60s and have them just get quiet, and then we start, um, and usually during that time I can hear the little clock on my desk tick, which I don't really hear any other time. So just to be present, to be here, um, it's easy. It's just it's right there for you.

Alicia: I love those. Thank you so much for sharing both of them. As someone who actually I find I can appreciate both. One that's a little bit more still. But like you, I love connecting with God while I'm moving and often walking or walking in the woods. Um, it's just something that about movement that, you know, makes feels like it can be easier to find God accessible at times, especially in our busy lives. So thank you so much, Doctor Matthews, for sharing your insights and wisdom with us today. Uh, I can't wait for our listeners to practice some of these contemplative, contemplative practices themselves.

Westina: Thank you so much. Thank you for inviting me. I've enjoyed this so much and I feel like that commercial. Just do it. Just do it. Just do it. Whatever you do, Whatever you do, it will be better for you. Whatever you do.

Dwight: Well, thank you. And to our audience, thank you for joining us on this episode of pivot. To help spread the word about pivot, please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review. It really helps.

Alicia: Finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share. Pivot with a friend. Until next time. This is Alicia Granholm and Dwight Zscheile signing off. We'll see you next week.

Faith+Lead voiceover: The Pivot Podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith+Lead. Faith+Lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at faithlead.org.