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S2E5 Behind the Bob - the one with Simon Jones
Episode 5 • 24th July 2024 • Behind the Bob • Carrie-Ann Wade
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In the latest episode Carrie-Ann Wade talks with Simon Jones who is the Executive Director for Communications for Westco and the former Chair of LGcomms, a professional body representing local government communicators.

We talk about his 15 years’ experience at director level in local government where his remit not only covered communications but included policy, strategy and business intelligence.

Simon shares his journey from journalist and editorial director into a career in communications and is honest about the challenges and learning.

We also talk about the joy of working with senior leadership teams who value and understand comms as well as the impacts of crisis communications on our work and our wellbeing.

Thank you to Simon for sharing his story and his advice for communications leaders.

Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director

Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with Carrie-Ann Wade.

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career. You’ll hear from Carrie-Ann about her own personal experiences and insights and there might even be a special guest or two popping up.

The first series focused on diversity in the communications profession and how to create more opportunities for people to see communications as a profession they would like to work in. The second series explores the lives of communications directors to help inspire and support communications leaders of the future.

Behind the Bob gives you a sneak peek into life as a comms director and provides you with all the "behind the scenes" knowledge to help you thrive as a communications leader.


Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed listening please share it, leave a rating or a review. It really does help the podcast reach more communicators!

New episodes of Behind the Bob are published on Wednesdays and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.

You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Transcripts

Speaker:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with

Speaker:

me, Carrie-Ann Wade.

Speaker:

This

Speaker:

Carrie-Ann Wade: podcast is all about developing communications leaders

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of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

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You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

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be a special guest or two popping up.

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So I hope you enjoy.

Speaker:

Hello listeners and welcome to this episode of Behind the Bob.

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You will know in this series, I am having conversations with some amazing

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communications directors to try and hear a little bit about their experience and

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journey through the profession so far in the hope that it will inspire some of our

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communications directors of the future.

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And I'm really happy to be joined by Simon Jones today, who's executive director of

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communications At Westco communication.

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So welcome, Simon.

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Thanks for being here.

Simon Jones:

Hi Carrie-Ann, lovely to be here.

Simon Jones:

Thank you for inviting me.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: are.

Simon Jones:

You're welcome.

Simon Jones:

I'm really looking forward to having this conversation and finding out a

Simon Jones:

bit more about your career to date and your experiences as a communications

Simon Jones:

director, so I guess to kick us off, it would be great if you could tell us

Simon Jones:

a little bit about your comms career to date, and maybe if you wouldn't

Simon Jones:

mind telling us how you decided that comms was the profession for you.

Simon Jones:

Yeah, thanks Carrie-Ann.

Simon Jones:

So like a lot of PR professionals I came from journalism, having worked

Simon Jones:

on sort of nationals and national and regional newspapers in the UK

Simon Jones:

and overseas in, in New Zealand.

Simon Jones:

And back in 2007, I jumped to what my colleagues then

Simon Jones:

described as the dark side.

Simon Jones:

Because the newspaper industry started to implode and we saw newspapers, local

Simon Jones:

and regional newspapers starting to close or completely change how they operated.

Simon Jones:

And for me, I realized the time was up really in terms of journalism, which was

Simon Jones:

a very sad moment for me, but I knew that there was a different future out there.

Simon Jones:

So my first job.

Simon Jones:

was as head of communications at Hammersmith and Fulham

Simon Jones:

Council in West London.

Simon Jones:

And I was probably, to be honest with you, quite lucky to land the job

Simon Jones:

because the council took a bit of a gamble on me having no PR experience.

Simon Jones:

And I think these days it's more difficult for senior journalists

Simon Jones:

to land jobs at that level straight away, which you need to prove your

Simon Jones:

worth as a strategic communicator.

Simon Jones:

And while journalism gives you some of the tools, There's a lot to learn.

Simon Jones:

And I think part of the appeal for me in moving to PR, indeed part of my pitch, at

Simon Jones:

Hammersmith Fulham, was that, I had a bit of a reputation as being a campaigning

Simon Jones:

journalist and an editor, and I felt I'd have more opportunity to deploy those

Simon Jones:

skills on the other side of the fence..

Simon Jones:

So I worked at Hammersmith Fulham for about seven years, Moving on to

Simon Jones:

take up the position of Director of Communications and Policy there, and

Simon Jones:

then I subsequently moved on to Haringey Council, where I fulfilled a similar role.

Simon Jones:

And as you say, now I'm Director of Communications at Westco.

Simon Jones:

For those that don't know Westco, we're an agency that's part

Simon Jones:

of Westminster City Council.

Simon Jones:

And we've been around for about 22 years and we work.

Simon Jones:

extensively across across local government and the NHS as well as other sectors like

Simon Jones:

the fire service and police, but we're very much rooted in the public sector.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And if you wouldn't mind me asking Simon, what feels

Simon Jones:

different about moving to more of an agency model from being in house and

Simon Jones:

does that feel different for you?

Simon Jones:

Does feel different because, one of, one of the key

Simon Jones:

differences is, which is a good thing.

Simon Jones:

Obviously it can be slightly stressful at times, but you get to work, you get to

Simon Jones:

work on a variety of different projects with a variety of different clients.

Simon Jones:

So at any one time you may have five or six different types of projects, whether

Simon Jones:

it be campaigns that we're developing or communication strategies that we're

Simon Jones:

developing or overseeing kind of major pieces of work across a range of clients.

Simon Jones:

And so obviously when you're in house, you're very much dealing or working within

Simon Jones:

that organization and its structures.

Simon Jones:

And even of course, there's any.

Simon Jones:

The comms director in local government or in the NHS will tell you, you had to

Simon Jones:

juggle multiple things at multiple times.

Simon Jones:

In an agency environment, you're just doing that across multiple clients.

Simon Jones:

And of course, there's more focus in an agency environment

Simon Jones:

about the need to bring work in.

Simon Jones:

The business development side as well, doing a lot of kind of getting out

Simon Jones:

there, meeting people, talking to people.

Simon Jones:

as well, in terms of raising the profile of Westco, what we do as well

Simon Jones:

in terms of how we can help clients.

Simon Jones:

So we'll focus on business development as well.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Before we move on to talk a bit more about your role

Simon Jones:

as a communications director in the different organizations you've been

Simon Jones:

in, I always like to hear the good stuff and what people are proud of.

Simon Jones:

I wondered if you could share what you might consider to be some of the

Simon Jones:

highlights of your communications career to date, and I'm sure there'll be more

Simon Jones:

to come, but but up to this point, any highlights would be gratefully received.

Simon Jones:

Yeah, so working at Hammersmith and Fulham,

Simon Jones:

so say, which I did for seven years taught me a huge amount.

Simon Jones:

And I was very lucky, because I worked in an organisation where the senior

Simon Jones:

politicians and the senior leadership team really valued communications and saw how

Simon Jones:

important it was to, to the organization.

Simon Jones:

And that isn't always the case.

Simon Jones:

I think every organization that we, I've worked for.

Simon Jones:

My old council leader chap called Steven Greenhouse wrote a book at the

Simon Jones:

time called the good council guide.

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It was a very prominent council leader around around 2010, that period.

Simon Jones:

And the, and he described how the head of communications is the most

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important person in the organization, other than the chief exec, because

Simon Jones:

he understood the kind of building a strong connection between the community

Simon Jones:

and public services and building trust and reputation was essential to the

Simon Jones:

effective running of the council.

Simon Jones:

And so it was great to be working in that environment where communications

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really was in the kind of, if you like, in, in the front row,

Simon Jones:

of helping to run the council.

Simon Jones:

And to be able to suggest ideas and policy considerations and to be able to

Simon Jones:

work in an environment where I work very closely with the chief exec and council

Simon Jones:

leader, as I say, understanding the value in the role of strategic communications.

Simon Jones:

I guess that's the kind of battle I guess a lot of communicators have.

Simon Jones:

in terms of raising the profile of what strategic communications can do in

Simon Jones:

the organization, and therefore trying to build our influence as well, and

Simon Jones:

demonstrating that, and I guess that's an ongoing, isn't it, an ongoing battle

Simon Jones:

that we all face in communications.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Jones:

And it feels often your role as a communications director is also

Simon Jones:

about being an educator around educating other people in the

Simon Jones:

organization about comms expertise and what we can bring to the table.

Simon Jones:

absolutely.

Simon Jones:

And of course, being involved in the earliest stages of policy

Simon Jones:

discussion rather than just at the end in terms of helping, if

Simon Jones:

you like, develop those policies.

Simon Jones:

Having that clear view in terms of how things will land is definitely important.

Simon Jones:

Where we need to be and what I had the opportunity to do at Hammersmith Fulham,

Simon Jones:

and the thing I was probably the most proud of there at Hammersmith Fulham,

Simon Jones:

which I think really demonstrated what communications can do, is that we

Simon Jones:

had a project called Team White City.

Simon Jones:

And White City is a housing estate in Hammersmith Fulham with a population

Simon Jones:

of about 13, 000 people, quite a deprived area next to the old BBC.

Simon Jones:

And Team White City was about getting people much more involved

Simon Jones:

in the design and delivery of community based public services.

Simon Jones:

For example, getting people to shape local anti social behavior priorities.

Simon Jones:

We set up a mentoring scheme for people.

Simon Jones:

We kick started new apprenticeship and employment opportunities.

Simon Jones:

And we had on the estate, a kind of local fanzine.

Simon Jones:

I think it went through everyone's door once a month.

Simon Jones:

It was run by local people.

Simon Jones:

People read stories for it.

Simon Jones:

And it really celebrated what was happening on the estate.

Simon Jones:

People getting a new job or an employment opportunity or

Simon Jones:

an apprenticeship opportunity.

Simon Jones:

It really celebrated all the good things that people were doing, and therefore

Simon Jones:

encouraged others to follow that path.

Simon Jones:

It was peer to peer led communications.

Simon Jones:

And fundamentally, Team White City was about rewiring public

Simon Jones:

services by putting local people in the driving seat and moving the

Simon Jones:

council out of the driving seat.

Simon Jones:

And, a year after the project, a survey showed that we managed to increase

Simon Jones:

pride on the estate by more than 25 percent in the space of that year.

Simon Jones:

And it just shows you how thinking about communications and engagement and

Simon Jones:

that connection with local people, how important that is and what can be achieved

Simon Jones:

from that when you do it really well.

Simon Jones:

It just shows you the impact of our job, I think.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, I love that.

Simon Jones:

That's such a brilliant example.

Simon Jones:

And I have to say, the majority of my experience has been in the NHS and I've

Simon Jones:

often said, I think communications professionals probably have quite a lot

Simon Jones:

to learn from local government comms around how to do that engagement piece,

Simon Jones:

and that engagement with the community, which I'm always blown away by when I hear

Simon Jones:

from colleagues across local government.

Simon Jones:

So that's a really great

Simon Jones:

Yeah, fundamentally it's about relationships, isn't it and also

Simon Jones:

about storytelling really, bringing out those storytellings and ensuring that

Simon Jones:

communications is authentic really, and if you can get that bit right then, as

Simon Jones:

I say, you can have a lot of impact.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: You've told us a little bit about your move from working

Simon Jones:

in the press to getting that head of communications role in local government.

Simon Jones:

And you might say that felt flukey to do that as your first step.

Simon Jones:

But that's all kudos on you for doing that because you were clearly

Simon Jones:

the right person for the job.

Simon Jones:

But I wondered if you could let our listeners know a little bit more

Simon Jones:

about how or why you decided that step up to a director level comms

Simon Jones:

role was the right thing for you.

Simon Jones:

Yeah, I mean I'd say in all honesty I was probably a

Simon Jones:

reluctant comms director or head of comms I wasn't at the time.

Simon Jones:

Because my first love was journalism, that's what I always wanted to do when I

Simon Jones:

was at school and I loved writing, I loved going out there and finding stories, I

Simon Jones:

remember running a school newspaper at the age of seven, so I've always loved people

Simon Jones:

and I love writing and I was sad to leave journalism because that was my true love.

Simon Jones:

But I came to realize, I think, through the process, the power, Of words and

Simon Jones:

imagery when it comes to that ability to inspire and, being in a comms role

Simon Jones:

in, in local government, especially in Hammersmith and Fulham, which we only

Simon Jones:

had a small team, only had about five or six people in the communication team.

Simon Jones:

So I still had to get my hands dirty, do a lot of the content

Simon Jones:

production and development.

Simon Jones:

So I was able to maintain the kind of skills really that I had as a

Simon Jones:

journalist that continues to write a lot and continue to develop, as it is

Simon Jones:

an editor really, content packages.

Simon Jones:

Which, which is all designed really to enable people to stand

Simon Jones:

up and take notice and to inspire.

Simon Jones:

And I think, I loved the job.

Simon Jones:

There was a lot to learn, a lot to learn on the jobs.

Simon Jones:

Particularly in things like procurement and all those kind of things.

Simon Jones:

And the sort of structures of local government and how things get approved.

Simon Jones:

And who's, where the power lies and all these things.

Simon Jones:

There's a lot to learn and the sort of processes around that and

Simon Jones:

the rules of around that as well.

Simon Jones:

But there's so much opportunity, isn't there?

Simon Jones:

In public services to, to use comms for public good.

Simon Jones:

And that's what I love about my job.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: You were there at the council for a period of time and was the

Simon Jones:

director role, a role that was already there that you were able to step up into,

Simon Jones:

or was it a new role for the council?

Simon Jones:

It was a new role for the council.

Simon Jones:

And they it was created really not because I was really pushing for kind of

Simon Jones:

integration of communications and policy because I could see a clear overlap there.

Simon Jones:

And so the chief exec and the council leaders what it would make

Simon Jones:

sense to to combine the roles.

Simon Jones:

And it also included.

Simon Jones:

Business intelligence as well, because, of course, developing insight

Simon Jones:

and data and using that insight and data to inform how we go about

Simon Jones:

communications is so important.

Simon Jones:

So I was very fortunate, in terms of having those tools at my disposal,

Simon Jones:

because it meant that we could then develop integrated programs, a bit

Simon Jones:

like team white city, because it was based on a lot of insight and

Simon Jones:

data, we'd develop new policies.

Simon Jones:

And it shows you, what communications can achieve.

Simon Jones:

When you do have those tools at your disposal.

Simon Jones:

And I'm a really big advocate.

Simon Jones:

We do a lot of communication reviews in my job, and I'm a very big advocate for

Simon Jones:

for bringing together communications with policy and with business intelligence,

Simon Jones:

not maybe not as one service, like I was lucky to have, but as a family

Simon Jones:

though, and to work very closely with those services, because the more

Simon Jones:

closely we work with them, then the more effective we can be as communicators.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And actually, again, in my experience in the NHS,

Simon Jones:

something that we've not always been brilliant at in terms of that, using

Simon Jones:

the data to help tell the story.

Simon Jones:

So I think that's a really important part of being, being a communications leader.

Simon Jones:

You then moved on into another directorship in another council,

Simon Jones:

but you took the step to move to to sort of agency model.

Simon Jones:

So talk us through some of what that experience was like for you and how

Simon Jones:

you made some of those decisions.

Simon Jones:

Yeah as I say, working for an agency with Westco very different

Simon Jones:

because of the multiple clients.

Simon Jones:

But when I started with Westco back in 2017, I was still very much

Simon Jones:

embedded in in, in local government.

Simon Jones:

I worked for three days a week as the head of communication for Wandsworth Council.

Simon Jones:

But also the good thing about it is I get to, I got to, support other local

Simon Jones:

authorities in communication leadership.

Simon Jones:

So I worked in Derbyshire, County Council, Havering, Council East London.

Simon Jones:

I worked in my hometown, or my own borough, I should say, of Wakefield,

Simon Jones:

my home district of Wakefield, which is where I'm from, where I'm at the moment.

Simon Jones:

As well.

Simon Jones:

So that ability to get out and about working different teams always went

Simon Jones:

down to Plymouth where it's there and you get to see different environments

Simon Jones:

and it definitely improves you as your communicator because a big part of

Simon Jones:

our job is that adaptability in terms of working in different environments,

Simon Jones:

different cultures, different priorities, different systems, different processes.

Simon Jones:

And you've got to adapt.

Simon Jones:

You always got to continually adapt to that environment because

Simon Jones:

every environment is different.

Simon Jones:

And that means every communication the kind of communication

Simon Jones:

landscape is very different.

Simon Jones:

So you have to adapt your style in terms of how your relationships and

Simon Jones:

how you manage teams, and you have to adapt the style of communications

Simon Jones:

according to what the local priorities are as well and how they are formed.

Simon Jones:

And so getting out and about, working in lots of different organizations,

Simon Jones:

definitely, I think, improved me as a communicator and helped build my kind

Simon Jones:

of resilience, really, in terms of being able to deal with different situations.

Simon Jones:

Yeah.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: That's really helpful advice as well, because I think sometimes

Simon Jones:

people who work in communications forget how transferable their skills are and that

Simon Jones:

actually their skills that are needed lots of places, but that it's a good personal

Simon Jones:

challenge for you to move around and not always be stuck in that same organization

Simon Jones:

or same, even same borough same industry, move around and get different experience.

Simon Jones:

And I've seen working because part of my job now is we place people in

Simon Jones:

different positions and things like that.

Simon Jones:

And, I get to work with lots of really good communicators.

Simon Jones:

And I have seen, and it certainly happened to me as well, but I've

Simon Jones:

seen really good communicators who have been fantastic in one setting.

Simon Jones:

Where it hasn't worked out in another setting.

Simon Jones:

And that's the nature of our job, I think, really.

Simon Jones:

It's because it's about the local organisation, the culture.

Simon Jones:

And so that ability to read the room and adapt is so important,

Simon Jones:

I think, in communications.

Simon Jones:

And to adapt your style according to what the culture of the organisation is.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: if you're an aspiring communications leader who's looking

Simon Jones:

for a safe space to work through your next steps or you want to become more

Simon Jones:

boundaried and intentional in the workplace or even in your career, why

Simon Jones:

not check out the individual and group mentoring offers with Cats Pajamas.

Simon Jones:

You can find out more at cats-pajamas.co.Uk or over on our socials.

Simon Jones:

All the links are in the show notes.

Simon Jones:

That's some good advice.

Simon Jones:

And I know we'll talk a bit later about more advice for aspiring

Simon Jones:

communications leaders, but you've talked a little bit about that jump.

Simon Jones:

And you've also talked about the fact that you were very lucky in the

Simon Jones:

first council that you worked within, that you had really supportive.

Simon Jones:

Senior leadership, which is brilliant, but I wondered if you could talk to

Simon Jones:

us about what you might consider to be maybe some of the biggest challenges

Simon Jones:

you faced as a communications director when you've taken that step up.

Simon Jones:

Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Jones:

I think for me the most challenging part of the job is

Simon Jones:

dealing with crisis situations.

Simon Jones:

I saw at Haringey the long lasting impact that the Baby P scandal had on

Simon Jones:

the organization and its confidence.

Simon Jones:

I was there seven years on.

Simon Jones:

From that scandal.

Simon Jones:

But but the council was very much still dealing with the aftermath and, while

Simon Jones:

I was there, we virtually I wouldn't say relaunched, but certainly rebooted.

Simon Jones:

The council giving a new direction, new values and a new brand identity.

Simon Jones:

And with that trying to create a new purpose and sense of confidence about

Simon Jones:

what it was doing and its place in the community, and that was a really big

Simon Jones:

challenge to be part of that program.

Simon Jones:

But it was, I think, a very successful program and to try and

Simon Jones:

with that, to show, to inspire staff.

Simon Jones:

to inspire partners in terms of what the council was about now, rather than what

Simon Jones:

it was about seven years prior to that during that that, that terrible tragedy.

Simon Jones:

And so that was a huge challenge for me while I was at Haringey.

Simon Jones:

I also played a very small part in the Grenfell response unit, which was a thing

Simon Jones:

that was set up, it was a coalition of local, of London local authorities that

Simon Jones:

went in there to to provide the response in the aftermath of the Grenfell fire.

Simon Jones:

Because, of course, Kensington and Chelsea council initially

Simon Jones:

received a lot of criticism.

Simon Jones:

For their deficiencies in their response to to the emergency.

Simon Jones:

And I'm going to be fair to them.

Simon Jones:

I don't think in that situation, that awful situation that any council acting

Simon Jones:

alone could have had the resources to deal with something of that magnitude.

Simon Jones:

But what it taught me is just how important communications

Simon Jones:

and engagement is and getting that right in the early stages.

Simon Jones:

of an emergency and if you get that wrong, then it takes a long

Simon Jones:

time to get back public trust.

Simon Jones:

And so that was a really big lesson in terms of, say, supporting the work

Simon Jones:

and trying to re, rebuild our supposed trust and to rebuild relationships in

Simon Jones:

that area with the local community.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah that rebuilding and that relationship

Simon Jones:

I don't know what you call it.

Simon Jones:

Engagement management is a really big part of what we can

Simon Jones:

do as communicators, isn't it?

Simon Jones:

And support people to do so yeah, they feel like really big as you say,

Simon Jones:

quite tragic situations to be dealing with as communicators, but it is

Simon Jones:

the very nature of our job, as comms directors, that there is potential

Simon Jones:

always for a crisis to happen and for us to have to be able to support our

Simon Jones:

teams and our communities through that.

Simon Jones:

Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Jones:

And also to think of communications in the whole as well because a big part

Simon Jones:

of communications is relationships.

Simon Jones:

Thinking about community engagement and how we strengthen relationships, really,

Simon Jones:

and I think rather than just thinking about the words we put out, thinking

Simon Jones:

about how do we build relationships as we engage the community, if we can

Simon Jones:

integrate our thinking around that, then I think we're going to be more effective.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I wonder if you'd mind me asking, and I'm putting you on the

Simon Jones:

spot a little bit, Simon, so apologies, but I'm thinking about the sort of

Simon Jones:

crisis comms element of what we deal with is communications professionals.

Simon Jones:

I wonder if you had any thoughts on how we can support each other

Simon Jones:

within our profession when dealing with those difficult things.

Simon Jones:

And I know the pandemic probably feels like something we've thrown

Simon Jones:

around quite a lot in conversations about how we support people through.

Simon Jones:

Being more resilient, if that's the word you want to use.

Simon Jones:

But I just wondered if you had any thoughts for communicators about, how

Simon Jones:

to look after their own selves, because we're exposed to quite a lot, aren't we?

Simon Jones:

As comms professionals, the good, the bad and everything in between.

Simon Jones:

And I don't sometimes think people realize quite how much access we

Simon Jones:

have to some of those more, more challenging kind of circumstances and

Simon Jones:

that challenging sort of information.

Simon Jones:

Oh, absolutely.

Simon Jones:

We were, I wasn't personally involved, but but I supported some of the work

Simon Jones:

that happened recently in Plymouth around the bomb that was found in the garden

Simon Jones:

and the evacuation of 15, 000 people as the bomb was detonated out in sea.

Simon Jones:

And, so I wasn't involved, but I saw just how hard those teams work down there.

Simon Jones:

We had Westco had one of our people down there.

Simon Jones:

So working with the team, overseeing the work, and, literally

Simon Jones:

people working 18 hours a day in really stressful situations.

Simon Jones:

And we have to as you say, look after each other, really.

Simon Jones:

And for me, what that, that means, Talking to people, reaching

Simon Jones:

out to people, getting advice.

Simon Jones:

We work as a family, I think, in communications, and we need to use

Simon Jones:

that family to support each other by talking to each other, providing

Simon Jones:

advice, sharing how we're feeling being able to get stuff off our chest.

Simon Jones:

And the more we do that by engaging our colleagues, our fellow communicators,

Simon Jones:

by building our own networks locally within our profession, etc.

Simon Jones:

And drawing support from that, then I think that's invaluable really, because

Simon Jones:

communications can be quite a lonely job.

Simon Jones:

If you don't do that, especially in the kind of senior environment, you may feel

Simon Jones:

that you haven't got people to talk to in your own organization who understand

Simon Jones:

what's happening or what's going on.

Simon Jones:

And that's why I think organizations like LG comms just I was lucky to be the

Simon Jones:

chair of LG comms, which is a national network of local government communicators.

Simon Jones:

That's why those organizations are so important because it's

Simon Jones:

about drawing in that network.

Simon Jones:

Building the network and enabling people to plug into that network

Simon Jones:

by sharing getting advice, sharing best practice, but also getting

Simon Jones:

stuff off their chest as well.

Simon Jones:

And the more we do that, I think the more we build our own personal resilience.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you, Simon.

Simon Jones:

And I absolutely agree.

Simon Jones:

The power of your network is a really important part of how you

Simon Jones:

manage yourself as a communicator.

Simon Jones:

So thank you so much for sharing.

Simon Jones:

So I'm going to move us on a little bit from the challenges.

Simon Jones:

And I know earlier you talked about highlights, such as Team White City,

Simon Jones:

which was brilliant to hear about, but I wondered if you could share What

Simon Jones:

you might consider to be your biggest success specifically as a comms director.

Simon Jones:

And I know you've got a few roles to choose from, and it might be

Simon Jones:

from one of those, or it might be a culmination of them all.

Simon Jones:

But I just would be interested to hear from you.

Simon Jones:

I was really proud of the work that Westco did when

Simon Jones:

it comes to reducing vaccine hesitancy during the pandemic.

Simon Jones:

We worked with about 30 different local authorities and NHS trusts

Simon Jones:

as well to develop a different type of communication approach.

Simon Jones:

And the sort of government messaging, because over time, I think that

Simon Jones:

government messaging is becoming less effective that kind of broadcast tell

Simon Jones:

you what to do type approach wasn't as effective as the pandemic went on.

Simon Jones:

We particularly amongst younger people.

Simon Jones:

And so we set up a project.

Simon Jones:

To engage younger people around the vaccine we produced the UK's first,

Simon Jones:

I think, only website that was specifically for younger people on

Simon Jones:

the pandemic called Everything COVID.

Simon Jones:

And all, pretty much all the content was written by young people and

Simon Jones:

that kind of style and language.

Simon Jones:

We worked a lot with social media influencers, young social media

Simon Jones:

influencers to tell their story.

Simon Jones:

about what their views of the vaccine was and what their attitude was that

Simon Jones:

did a lot of myth busting around the facts as well and our role wasn't to

Simon Jones:

try and change everyone's attitudes to the vaccine because a lot of people had

Simon Jones:

you know we respected young people's views whether they were pro or anti

Simon Jones:

the vaccine we weren't necessarily out to change hearts and minds.

Simon Jones:

But what we were out to do is to create a conversation about it and

Simon Jones:

ensure that people had access to all of the facts as well in order

Simon Jones:

to help inform their their decision.

Simon Jones:

And so we engaged literally hundreds of thousands of young

Simon Jones:

people across England and Wales.

Simon Jones:

And it was a really successful project.

Simon Jones:

And it showed me again, that power of peer to peer authentic communications

Simon Jones:

that really has that ability to cut through in a way that, standard government

Simon Jones:

communication, whether that's local or national can't really do on its own.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think that's a really good lesson, isn't it?

Simon Jones:

For us as comms professionals and for organizations that actually sometimes that

Simon Jones:

organizational comms piece isn't the bit that's going to have the biggest impact.

Simon Jones:

It's actually hearing from.

Simon Jones:

Other people who are maybe experts by experience or peer to peer,

Simon Jones:

however you want to label it, is a really good way of communicating

Simon Jones:

and having that conversation.

Simon Jones:

It isn't all about the broadcast.

Simon Jones:

A brilliant example and a reminder that we've got generations of people

Simon Jones:

coming along now that communicate in different ways and have different.

Simon Jones:

You mechanisms and methods for having those conversations.

Simon Jones:

And it's something that as communications professionals, we need to stay on top of.

Simon Jones:

So brilliant work.

Simon Jones:

I'm going to get to the bit and I always leave this to the end in the

Simon Jones:

hope that listeners stay with us.

Simon Jones:

Cause this is the bit that I think is usually what our listeners are

Simon Jones:

most interested in, but Part of my mission and what I do with Cats Pajamas

Simon Jones:

is to help aspiring communications leaders to take that step up into

Simon Jones:

maybe a more senior position or demonstrate their leadership in comms.

Simon Jones:

So I wondered if you had any particular advice that you would give to people

Simon Jones:

who are maybe not in that leadership position yet as a communicator, but

Simon Jones:

would like to get there in the future.

Simon Jones:

Yeah.

Simon Jones:

I think this is, I work a lot with different communication teams.

Simon Jones:

And I see people perhaps new to the profession and let's face it,

Simon Jones:

our job can be incredibly busy.

Simon Jones:

There's lots of priorities.

Simon Jones:

There's lots of demand on our time.

Simon Jones:

And I think it's quite it's natural sometimes to get weathered

Simon Jones:

down a little bit by that demand and to feel a bit despondent.

Simon Jones:

But my advice really is always to acknowledge the value that

Simon Jones:

you bring as a communicator.

Simon Jones:

It's such an important job and never underestimate what can be achieved in

Simon Jones:

the role and to build up your knowledge and networks, because the more we're

Simon Jones:

able to influence, the more we can preempt problems before they occur,

Simon Jones:

the more that we can provide advice.

Simon Jones:

Instead of just responding to what someone's asking us to do, it may not

Simon Jones:

be the most effective or right thing to do to really think about it in terms

Simon Jones:

of what the best approach is, how can we be more effective as communicators,

Simon Jones:

how can we can learn from what we did yesterday or last week or last year.

Simon Jones:

in terms of trying to deploy a more successful or more effective approach.

Simon Jones:

We always have to be hungry to learn, I think, and that's my key.

Simon Jones:

I think advice really is keep your mind open look for those learning

Simon Jones:

opportunities, look back in terms of what works and what didn't work,

Simon Jones:

and just continue to evolve thinking in terms of what, how to deploy

Simon Jones:

your skills as a communicator.

Simon Jones:

And always never, as I say, underestimate just how important

Simon Jones:

your job is to your organization.

Simon Jones:

Because as I say, after all, building trust and reputation and involvement in

Simon Jones:

public services isn't about vanity, it's about the ability to get things done and

Simon Jones:

the ability to bring people with you.

Simon Jones:

And the other piece of advice I'd have for people, and this is

Simon Jones:

something I'm trying to do now, is just try and get ahead of the curve

Simon Jones:

a little bit when it comes to AI.

Simon Jones:

That's going to totally change our profession.

Simon Jones:

And the more we understand it, the more I understand how it's evolving in

Simon Jones:

terms of the tools and applications out there, the more we can get on top of

Simon Jones:

that, I think would mean that you're in a much better place to take advantage.

Simon Jones:

of the huge opportunities that will come our way when it comes to

Simon Jones:

artificial intelligence, rather than responding to that, because those left

Simon Jones:

behind, I think we'll be in trouble.

Simon Jones:

So I think be eager to learn about AI.

Simon Jones:

Westco has a course, a marketing course around AI and have a

Simon Jones:

look at it or look elsewhere.

Simon Jones:

Whether it's the , PRCA or CIPR, because the more, as I say, we're able to get

Simon Jones:

ahead of the curve and understand the power of that and how it's going to

Simon Jones:

change communications, I think the more successful we will be in the future.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you.

Simon Jones:

Some brilliant bits of advice there, Simon, and some signposting

Simon Jones:

to some great resources.

Simon Jones:

And I think that piece around AI is crucial, isn't it?

Simon Jones:

Cause I think there's probably going to be a cohort of communicators

Simon Jones:

who are maybe fearful about what that means for their role and how

Simon Jones:

they operate as a communicator.

Simon Jones:

But like you say, if you can be ahead of that curve then that's the best place

Simon Jones:

to be because you will be helping to affect that change and changing your role

Simon Jones:

as you go to meet the need and demand.

Simon Jones:

And the power of AI, I think is really important.

Simon Jones:

I don't think it should be seen as a bad thing.

Simon Jones:

I think it creates huge opportunity for communicators to do some of the stuff

Simon Jones:

that they do best, but maybe don't always have the time to do in their role.

Simon Jones:

So that's brilliant.

Simon Jones:

I just wanted to pick up on one tiny thing before I know we need to draw

Simon Jones:

the conversation to a close, but you talked about how Lucky you've been

Simon Jones:

to work with senior leadership teams.

Simon Jones:

Who've really valued comms strategically and how that's been helpful.

Simon Jones:

And just when you were talking about your advice around being hungry and

Simon Jones:

not being despondent when there's a lot of demand and pressure on you, I guess

Simon Jones:

sometimes you can find yourself working in organizations where that strategic

Simon Jones:

value of comms isn't always seen.

Simon Jones:

As positively or or in the way that it, that we perhaps might like it to be.

Simon Jones:

So if you're in that sort of despondent kind of maybe slightly disengaged place

Simon Jones:

where you're like, I'm working really hard and I'm hungry, but my organization's

Simon Jones:

not seeing the value of comms here.

Simon Jones:

I know the obvious choice might be just to move organizations and

Simon Jones:

that's not always the right thing to do but where do you think aspiring

Simon Jones:

comms leaders might get some of that?

Simon Jones:

Inspiration and motivation from, if they're not getting that internally

Simon Jones:

from their own leadership team.

Simon Jones:

Yeah, I think the trick when you're in that situation, so I've

Simon Jones:

been in that situation a few times, is to try and work with the senior management

Simon Jones:

team to get them to understand the value of what communications can bring and to

Simon Jones:

instead of just saying, instead of being in that kind of receiving mode of numerous

Simon Jones:

requests or demands for resources, to be really clear with your senior management

Simon Jones:

team about what communication resources you do have, try and spell that out

Simon Jones:

in ways that they understand it, i.

Simon Jones:

e.

Simon Jones:

40 percent of our time is on reactive comms or business as usual.

Simon Jones:

This leaves this amount of hours in terms of what we can do, what's

Simon Jones:

your priorities as an organization?

Simon Jones:

Where do you want to get the best value?

Simon Jones:

from communications, because we can do the X, Y, Z, or you want us to

Simon Jones:

hone in on the things where we feel we can have, most impact against what

Simon Jones:

those organizational priorities are.

Simon Jones:

Most senior leadership teams will, of course, nod their heads and

Simon Jones:

say yes, and it's up to us then to define what that looks like.

Simon Jones:

By having that clear plan, which you can take to the senior management team

Simon Jones:

to say, these are our suggestions of where to put communication resources,

Simon Jones:

based on what resources are available to get best bang out of our team,

Simon Jones:

to help deliver your priorities.

Simon Jones:

This is what we think.

Simon Jones:

And if you can get agreement.

Simon Jones:

At that level, then that really does help you when it comes to managing

Simon Jones:

demand on the team, because you have that clear plan in terms of what

Simon Jones:

you've signed up to, and of course things change and new parties come in.

Simon Jones:

At least you can say what did we drop then in order to deliver that, which you've

Simon Jones:

got that clear plan, people understand what kind of resources you've got,

Simon Jones:

what you can do and what you can't do.

Simon Jones:

It just helps prioritize.

Simon Jones:

More effectively, I think.

Simon Jones:

And I think the danger of not doing that just means that you're always in

Simon Jones:

receive mode and struggling and and constantly juggling and potentially, in

Simon Jones:

that situation where you're doing so many things, you're not doing any one thing

Simon Jones:

well, and that's this bit that we need to get out of, I think, as communicators.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: So it's about proactivity, taking a bit more of that

Simon Jones:

control and I guess full circle to where the start of this conversation

Simon Jones:

was around insight and data piece, being able to actually demonstrate.

Simon Jones:

Absolutely.

Simon Jones:

it for evaluation in terms of this is what the data

Simon Jones:

says, where, what, where we're being most effective and where we're not.

Simon Jones:

So why don't we drop the areas where we're not being effective and dial

Simon Jones:

up where we are being effective.

Simon Jones:

If you can bring out that data and insight into the conversation again,

Simon Jones:

that just builds your influence within the organization as well.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think that's something we can do as communications

Simon Jones:

leaders, but also practice we can build in whatever level we're at in our comms

Simon Jones:

career around evaluating our own work and being able to demonstrate the value.

Simon Jones:

So that's really helpful.

Simon Jones:

Thank you so much, Simon.

Simon Jones:

I'm sure I could talk to you for much longer about comms, but I expect

Simon Jones:

you've got other things you need to.

Simon Jones:

Get on and do today, but I've really appreciated your time.

Simon Jones:

And I'm sure our listeners have been interested in hearing your journey, which

Simon Jones:

has been different from some of the other comms directors that we've heard from.

Simon Jones:

If listeners want to engage with you, Simon, ask you a question, find

Simon Jones:

out more about what you're up to.

Simon Jones:

What's the best way for them to do that?

Simon Jones:

Yeah.

Simon Jones:

So love, I'd love to, so people can reach out to me.

Simon Jones:

My email address is Simon at Westco communications.

Simon Jones:

com.

Simon Jones:

Or you'll see me on LinkedIn.

Simon Jones:

Just look at Simon Jones.

Simon Jones:

There's a few of us on there.

Simon Jones:

Simon Jones, hopefully I'll pop up fairly promptly.

Simon Jones:

So definitely reach out to me on LinkedIn connect and I'd

Simon Jones:

love to have a conversation.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you for that.

Simon Jones:

And thank you so much for your time, Simon.

Simon Jones:

It's much appreciated.

Simon Jones:

Lovely to be on.

Simon Jones:

Thank you very much indeed.

Simon Jones:

Carrie-Ann Wade: thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.

Simon Jones:

I'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Simon Jones:

and leave a rating or a review.

Simon Jones:

You can also engage with me over on the socials.

Simon Jones:

I'm on Insta and X at @catspjs_uk of course you can find me over on LinkedIn.

Simon Jones:

Hope to catch up with you soon.

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