"Someone said that you can't wait for inspiration. It's got to be discipline. And that's got to be like the most useless thing. That didn't work for me. I can't discipline myself into writing. I will just write. [...] I don't really see myself as a person that's going to be, like, a song machine."

In this episode of Resonant Rest, singer, songwriter, and voice teacher Carmina Rae speaks to host Oceaan Pendharkar about how the pandemic grew her ideas of value and independence, how to redefine productivity, and how not to be a song machine.

Oceaan and Carmina explore everything from the pros and cons of working for yourself versus working for others, adding and appreciating value outside of capitalist definitions — and even their ideal funerals.

[theme music with soothing synths and piano]

Hi, welcome to the Resonant Rest podcast. My name is Oceaan. This episode will feature a conversation I had with an artist named Carmina Rae. Carmina is a singer songwriter, sometimes voice teacher who I met because we attended Selkirk college for music at different times. We talked about a lot of things. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation, here we go. What does creativity look like in your life? And how does music play into it? Do you have particular rituals or practice routines you want to share?

[music]

Not so much. See, I really wanted to be a person that could have rituals that could be consistent, but I'm really just now starting to realize that that is not me. Like I can't I tried to be a person that would wake up at the same time, the same things. I just, I can't. And I think the biggest thing that's helped me with creativity is being okay with that. And not being like, oh, like, it's 12 o'clock on a Wednesday, and I'm not recording my demos, what am I doing? Because that just makes me hate doing it? Yeah, no, and especially like locking down last year. I hate it because everyone keeps saying this, but it was really helpful in just being a little bit kinder to myself when I'm not being super productive.

Totally. Yeah, I like that. Like, I feel like I'm similar. I don't like to focus on productivity when it comes to songwriting, especially, I don't like to sit down and force myself to write songs. I write songs, because I have a song in my head, and I need to write it down. And I kind of just vomit one out like every month or two.

Yeah. And it just has, if you let it happen, like it happens.

Yeah.

I remember when we because I don't know, you met a lot of the same teachers as actually.

Yeah, as I did.

At Selkirk. Some I don't even remember who said it. But someone was said that you can't wait for inspiration. It's got to be discipline. And that's got to be like the most useless thing. That didn't work for me. I can't discipline myself into writing, I will just, I will write, like, sometimes you have to discipline if it's your job. But for me, I don't really see myself as a person that's going to be like a song machine. You know, that's just not really what I want to do.

Yeah. That's great. I love that. I love that a lot.

People can't really see so much of my whole thing is in facial expressions. So podcasting is maybe not my...

Yeah, Carmina just gave us an open-toothed smile. I was like, I love that. And Carmina was like, open-tooth smile. Cool, to balance, creative time, resting time, everything else, to balance everything you need to balance. Do you just like let it happen? Do you set goals? Are you like a scheduler? What do you imagine when you imagine a life with enough time to do everything you want to do?

So I'm trying to build that now? I am the worst person to ask this question to, because I'm so bad at it. Like on the one hand, I talk about wanting to let myself work when I work. But on the other hand, I'm like, I've Capricorn everywhere in my birth chart. And it's just like, I do make all these lists and then I get really mad when I don't get everything done. So I'm trying to not do that. I'm trying to just let things happen when they happen. And for me because I'm gigging like three times a week now I give myself a little bit more leeway in my head. Like you were playing music all week. It's okay, if you don't want to play music today. But that's for me the big thing, I think it's gonna be different for everyone, because there are some people that like, won't do it and then will feel crappy for not doing it. But for me, I'm like, really, I bully myself. So I try to let myself not do it. Sometimes.

Yeah! I was thinking about lists, and how I really like to use lists as a tool. And I like to use them in a way that I have like many lists. I have, like, a big list of things that I have to do at some point. And then I also make tiny lists for specific days, where I'm like, okay, September 29. I'm going to wash my sheets, eat three meals, and also email this one person. And then I'm like, these are the things I need to do today. And then once I've done them, it helps to have had a list and be like, I've decided to do this very small list of things today. And now I can do whatever the hell I want!

I need to start doing that more. Sometimes I do it. For me, it's kind of like a slippery slope, though, because I'll spend an entire day writing 20 lists.

Oh, yeah, I definitely do that too.

And then like not complete the list.

Yeah, it's true.

But it is really helpful, especially with like, because a lot of the work that I do now is at home, like if I'm only gigging a couple days a week, then when I'm home, I'm meant to be working on songs and doing things. And if I don't have a list I forget to eat. It's like you're at home! You're like I ate like two minutes ago. But it's been hours because I've been in my room playing guitar like, anyway.

That's funny.

I try my best.

I asked this question to Anjalica the other day. And my friend who I was also interviewing, and they were talking about how rest and creative practice are not necessarily separate. Because I'm like talking about balancing, like time to create in time to rest. But for them, they were saying it was very intertwined. And I thought that was interesting. And it also made me just reflect on how I worded that question and how I thought of that question. And I thought of them as like, very separate things rather than like, things that could be interdependent and coexist in somebody's life, which is more like reality.

Yeah. I mean, especially if you use creativity as a way to process things like then it does, it does become something that can be really restful, or at least cathartic, if anything. I'm not there yet.

So rest is like so hard too. I find rest so hard. I guess. I feel valid when I'm being productive. I guess that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's hard. Because it's really hard to separate. Like, we live in this capitalist society that tells you what your value is, like, in how much you can produce. Silliness. Yeah, like, that's not what people are gonna be saying at your funeral. Like she was so productive. Well, maybe they will. I don't know. Not gonna be there.

Yeah. That's so funny, though. Like, what will people say at your funeral thing? Part of me wonders if people will even have a funeral for me, but probably, I guess, logically. Yeah, realistically,

I just want to be left on a mountain and eaten by vultures. Like, that's what I want. If that wasn't very illegal, that's what I would do.

Is it illegal?

Yeah, I think so.

Okay. I was thinking, I was thinking about dying the other day, and I was thinking, This sounds very dark. I was thinking about how nice it would be to just be wrapped in dirt. Right? Like, do you need to, you need to have a coffin. Like, what if you were just wrapped in dirt? And you just like, just like, I don't know, maybe some animal would eat you. Maybe maggots would just eat you.

That's what I want, though. Like, I just want to be part of the ground again. I don't want to be put it like, like, what is like, what do they do when they embalm you? Like you don't even do biodegrade at that. I don't know. It's the whole thing.

Yeah, I wonder if they like, I guess there's like biodegradable coffins. Right. It seems weird.

Yeah, I would rather just be put in the ground. But then I think you have issues with like sinkholes.

Oh, really?

I have no idea. I just said that. But I don't think it's true.

Wow, that took a turn. Anyway, Oh, okay. How do you sustain yourself? We could talk about income or food or how you feed your spirit or anything that comes up when you think of sustaining yourself.

See, this is another one because I'm bad at it. I just keep going and going until I can't, which I'm trying to stop doing.

Like you're not feeling sustained right now at all.

Like, no, I mean, there are things that I do like, look for exactly. Pole dancing, I think, is really helpful, like joyful movement and doing creative things that don't have anything to do with making money. Those are really helpful. But I do find that I sometimes will take those things and just run with them until I can't do anything anymore. So balance is something that I think is going to be the theme of this year for me. This year next coming year, hopefully.

2022, you mean?

Yeah, 'cause now that things are like starting to be busy and open again. I'm trying to resist the urge to overbook myself. But at the same time under booking myself as bad too because I do sustain myself in like, feeling. I don't know, like, if I'm not doing anything either I get really bored and like understimulated.

Like you like being busy.

I do. I do. But I think I have to find a good balance between like, I genuinely enjoy doing things and being busy. Versus if I'm not doing anything I'm a worthless person.

Yeah. Well, I'm not saying, yeah, you are a worthless person…

No, no, I Yeah. Yeah. Like an artist, musician thing, though.

Yeah, absolutely. Do you think about basic income ever?

All the time. This, I'm annoying about it. Yeah. Like, I'll literally walk past the self checkout at the grocery store I’m like, this is why we need universal basic income, like anything is enough to trigger people. Just don't talk to me anymore.

I'm just thinking about it. Because we listen to podcasts about it. And he like reads stuff about it, like all the time. And one of the things people say is like, against basic income, is that people need jobs, because people need to be busy. And it's interesting. I feel like in your answer I'm hearing you were like, creative things that don't bring income sustain you. And also, you like to be busy.

Yeah. And people like to be productive. Just, I am over being productive to make other people money. Or myself money even really. And I think it also has — it's like a whole thing. I think that it really neglects the value in things that are traditionally feminine. This, this becomes this whole thing where like, because building community is productive, taking care of your family is productive cleaning, your house is productive. Yeah, cooking meals for your loved ones. And these are all like traditional feminine tasks and they're not valued. In the same way, like raising kids is productive. I don't want to do that. But it all, yeah, does that make sense? Like

I hear you, yeah.

And I think that's silly.

It's interesting, like making other people money and making yourself money. I think as you're making yourself money, you are adding value to the lives of other people as well. You're like giving something there. You're kind of like, and most of us through our labour are making other people money, which is part of the issue, I think, with our current system.

Yeah. And I mean, I'm not, I'm not trying to say like, it's not okay to make other people money or whatever. But when your entire existence is just that, and you don't even have time to do the labour to sustain your own life and your own community. Like even if we had UBI people would still be working towards other things like, yeah, just because you don't work at Walmart for minimum wage doesn't mean that you're not being productive, like, so many more people would volunteer, I think.

Yeah, yeah. I guess I might go so far as to say that making money for other people, most often, for me is wrong. Yeah. I don't know how else to put it. I feel like I'm thinking about… I worked for someone for a while. And I was teaching piano lessons in my own home in my own space. And she was giving me the clients. Right, right. And I was making a wage that's above, like, minimum wage. I'm doing air air fingers, here, for people listening. Above whatever. It was like $26 an hour, right? Yeah. Which is fine. That's fine.

I mean, that's also why I quit teaching.

Yeah, right. It's so…

This is my home, my space, my skills, like

yeah, and she was giving me students, but she couldn't handle the students on her own schedule. And then finally, I had a talk with her. And I was like, hey, like, I just feel like this is not working for me. And part of the contract was like, you're not allowed to discuss your wage with anyone, you know; you're not allowed to neh neh, to and I was like, wanting a bit of extra money so I was like, not gonna ask questions at first. And then I realized I was super uncomfortable with it. And then I asked her how much she was charging for lessons. And it turns out, she was taking something like 40%. Right. And she was under charging for lessons. Absolutely. She should, she should be charging more. I hope she is now because I was like, you know, I charged $30 for a half hour, right? Like, and she was paying $20 — she was paying me $26 an hour, right? And she was charging like, it might have been $21 for a half hour lesson or something like that, which is way below market now, by the way for anyone listening if you're charging that charge more. Yeah, um, I feel like we have to have conversations about that.

Yeah. And I think too, we're talking about two different sides of it. Because for me, I'm like, I understand why someone would want to work under someone else, and not want all of the responsibility of being a business owner. But when we start talking about the other side of it, the people that are making that money, it does become exploitative really fast.

Yeah. And I think there are models that exist, like, I'm giving the teacher example, because that's like a normal thing in teaching studios around this city, right? People will pay something like $30 an hour, and they will be charging, like, you know, there'll be taking about 40%. I think that's normal. And maybe if it's your space, and you're paying rent, maybe that makes sense for you. But I think there's like a transparency thing that needs to be happening that isn't happening. Yeah. And I think most people's business models rely on underpaid labour. And like, you can't actually run your business without people doing those jobs. So how valuable is it really? Right?

Yeah, exactly.

Only as valuable as we accept.

And you really see it now that like, our labour shortages in so many places, especially in the food industry. Yeah. Like you can't… you either tell people to get better jobs. Or you treat them properly, you know what I mean? Because you get upset when nobody wants to work. You tell them when you treat them poorly, that they should just get a better job. Yeah, it's silliness.

There's so much crap in the service industry, though. Like, yeah. Oh!

I'm sure a lot of musicians. Yeah, with a bow.

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah. Anyways, me rambling. Doo doo doo doo doo. Okay. Do you have dreams about the future? A musical dream, a creative dream? Like, what are your dreams?

Oh, my goodness. See, I have only recently started thinking about the future. For the longest time, I was like, You know what, I am just gonna, because I didn't grow up with a lot of money either. I was like, we're never — I'm not gonna own a house. I'm not gonna do this. So I just kind of whatever. I've only recently been like, oh, you know what, actually, maybe I should save for something. I don't know. But I do want to move. Like my future is not in Canada. I'm gonna move somewhere warmer. Yeah. I want to move to Australia actually.

Right. Yeah, your partner is from Australia, right?

Yeah, exactly. But I think like, I think about this a lot now where I'm like, if we, because there are places where we could kind of live more on the coasts and have a house and I could teach from my house and not have to give any of my income to anyone. And also, I think my big thing with that, too, is that, like, I'm a little bit more self sustaining. And I don't feel so complicit and so much — Because right now, honestly, sometimes I do sometimes I think about like, I don't want to say, I don't know, like, there are a lot of things where I'm like, I kind of hate this whole system. I hate the way this is all set up. But I kind of have to be part of it.

What parts of what system are you talking about, specifically?

I don't know how to explain it. This is something I think about all the time. And it's like so ingrained in my brain now that I'm like, How do I take it outside of my brain? Just things like even what we were talking about before with like, lessons and like, especially I think what really showed it to me was when we locked down and I was doing everything from my house. And like scheduling things, mostly myself at this point, 'cause it's all online. And still making the same amount of money. Like that's, that's a little bit weird. Or even just like taking gigs that I know don't pay as well as they should.

Right? Yeah, you know,

It's kind of hard because on the one hand, this is my job. So I need to pay rent. But on the other hand, it's like this does kind of... I was talking to Ian Cromwell about this actually, a little while ago, communist, about how it just becomes this race to the bottom when you let these venues like keep undercharging and under paying for their music, but at the same time, like, I have rent to pay, so I'm like, in this race to the bottom, as he says. Yeah, I don't know. I forgot the question. I kind of went on.

Oh, yeah. Well, I was asking you about your dreams. And you were like, I want to get out of this system. But I was like, oh, like what about the system? And yeah, yeah, I think one step I take, personally towards the system thing. I feel like there are situations where I am an employer and I am the person making decisions about paying people and I like trying to be super transparent and communicative. And like I hope I overpay people. I hope, that's my hope. And I hope, I guess my dream aim just to, like, interrupt this interview that's supposed to be about you

No, I want to hear!

I feel like my dream is to just be able to provide people with opportunities they want and be able to be in a place where I can like make things happen that I want to make happen, and like, just pay everyone enough for it, you know, like, that's sort of like, part of my dream anyways. And I feel like part of that is financial stability. And so, I do need to participate in the economy for that.

Yeah. Everyone does. Like we live in a system like, yeah, that doesn't mean we can't criticize it.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember you saying you don't imagine yourself being a song machine. But what do you imagine yourself being?

See, I haven't thought that far ahead. I know that I really like teaching. I really, really enjoy being around children for a limited amount of time. They say such funny things. It's so great.

They really do.

They're the best.

They're really funny.

But I mean, I do like performing. And I like writing, but I've always just wanted to write for myself and release what I want to release. Like, I'm not a person that's gonna study the algorithm and try to figure out what will sell like, that's. So I mean, I have to figure out a way to sustain myself, then that's a little bit more realistic, like teaching. But for— in terms of being creative, I don't feel like putting a lot of effort into being marketable. And that's the thing, because even to be — or even to be like a songwriter, like someone who writes songs for other people, like you have to know what is selling, and there's a bunch of like, algorithms and things for doing really well on Spotify, and all of that, and I just don't care. I tried to make myself care. And I think about it, I just, I don't, which maybe means I'm never gonna be like a successful musician, whatever that means. But I just… I don't care.

Yeah, I hope we can all redefine success.

Yeah.

I think musician-hood, being a musician. I feel like it can be so many different things. And people have so many ideas about it. People like, oh, you should be on like American Idol. You know, you should become famous on the internet. I don't know, people say that stuff to me all the time. Totally. But I think it can look different for a lot of people. And I'm like, really, I feel like we should talk about it. Like all of us together in this world.

Yeah. And I kind of like just having dreams that have to do with music that have nothing to do with money. Like, I just want to release my songs. And obviously that costs money. So at some point it does, you do want to kind of break even at least, and even being able to play shows means you want people to show up. So you need money to advertise. But for the most part, I just don't want to lose the enjoyment of writing. And I did for a while, and performing, because it becomes this like what's marketable? What do people want? But I'm realizing recently that I just don't care. And some people do like what I do. And I think that there's an audience out there for everybody, anybody.

Totally. And yeah, absolutely. I think there's an extra piece with being not white, where there's like a marketability thing that's interesting, where you're like, you might have access to certain stuff that might be available for, quote, diverse artists or whatever. But also, I feel like there's a bit of... I remember, Alysha Brilla, talking about this when she had a major record deal, where they were like, how do we brand this artist? Like, she's brown. They just, like didn't know what to do sort of thing. And I feel like it is different. There's sort of like models out there for, like, white artists, especially I think, yeah, and I think I think it does, actually there's like an extra layer of something. I don't know. I'm like, not very good at marketing and not very into marketing. But I think in terms of like, appealing to an audience when you start to, I don't know, there's like a different story to tell. And I think that can be a good thing for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, I think about this a lot, because on the one hand, I do love seeing more representation and more diversity in music, and especially here in Vancouver because I don't feel like there is a lot.

Yeah, it's weird, right?

Like, we're insane. But at the same time, sometimes I just like, I'm never gonna put Filipino Canadian songwriter, whatever in my bio.

Oh, yeah?

Ever. No, I just and it's not that I'm not proud of my heritage, or whatever. But I don't feel like I do anything that needs to be differentiated like that. I'm not doing anything that's culturally-based. I don't. For other musicians that are putting that little hyphen in their ethnicity or background in their bios, that's great. Like, I think it's it's cool to be part of that and to share it, but for me, I'm like, sometimes I just want to be the musician that I am. Even in like these, like forms, because I fill out a lot of forms anything for like grants o whatever, where they ask you because I'm like, like, this bisexual woman of colour? I guess? I don't, I don't know. It just feels. It feels weird to tick a box.

But like the queerness one is a weird one, too, because? I don't know. It's interesting to tick a box for it. Yeah. And I guess lately I've been...? Well, I have so many layers of things to say. First, I'm, I hope you're not. I'm uncomfortable that I brought up that you aren't white.

no, no, it's great. Sorry. It's not something I'm uncomfortable with. I just think it's interesting that it's not something I can ever take off. It's just like this thing that I think about once in a while. I don't think it's a bad thing, like...

Yeah. And I think we should be free to do whatever we want with it. But I think the branding and perception of artists, it's like intertwined with that in a way that I don't really understand yet. But yeah, that's what I was saying.

Totally. I think about this a lot. I think we've had a conversation about this before actually.

Maybe we have. I was thinking about grants, like, checking boxes. And I was thinking about how, you know, grants are available to you because of certain identities you hold. I've received a few grants like that recently. And it's an interesting space. Like, where, I don't know, I'm like, I'm like, am I like brown enough for this? Like, am I like, disadvantaged enough for this, like, and does brown equal disadvantaged? Does? Like what is — Why? And I think it is important to provide opportunities to unrepresented groups.

And I think that's what it is. I think it's less being disadvantaged and more just not being represented.

I guess. Yeah.

But yeah, no, I feel the same way. Yeah, it's super weird. Yeah. More so for me with like, anything that has to do with being... because I still I don't feel comfortable with taking anything that is like, for queer spaces. I don't know. It's just like a weird thing. Background, because I guess I am in a relationship with, with like, a man like I have a bisexual person, but I, nobody would really know that if they didn't know me. But yeah, I think the labels are... They make things they may think they're very helpful. But they're also like, a really complicated feeling for me in my head.

It's weird. Totally. I think I just have one more question. Is there anything you want to nurture or change here? And now in the musical community?

That is such a good question. See, because this is the crazy thing, this is something I think about. Because I do really want to be more involved in building community. And especially because I'm not a person that wants to be like a famous musician. So the idea of just having spaces for people to get together is wonderful. And I do see a lot of people doing a lot of really cool work in that regard. SoI try to support it as much as possible, because I don't know. I don't know what I have to offer yet. And that's not to say I have nothing to offer it just, yeah, it's just figuring out how to put that into what I'm already doing. No, I'm gonna keep thinking about that.

Cool. Can you think of anyone who's doing work who you want to mention?

Locals Lounge has a lot of cool stuff going on right now. I'm sure you've seen it.

Yeah, I've seen it. Is that Ian running that? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Nice.

They do like that. They have like their online meetup on Zoom. Like a few open mic things coming up. Cool. So that's been I think they're also gonna do like a songwriting. So that's kind of exciting. Cool. But I think for me, though, like, my thing will be kind of, because I feel like I'm more… I'm a little bit of a shy person. Like, I don't know how much it shows often, but like, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, who knows. But I think because I really do like teaching and I like being around kids and I like encouraging, especially like teenage girls into instruments that they think they can't do. And also because this is a big thing. I know a lot of my students would be very used to me doing this, of them showing any kind of like unsureness of what they're doing. And just kind of trying to because I didn't have this, and I am 25 now, and I'm still really working to not act like I don't know something that I know. And just that it's not even a confidence thing. It's just interesting that like, I don't know, you don't have to pretend you don't know, it's not embarrassing if you're wrong. Like it's, it's fine to just to just try. Yeah. And I think that because that helps build the community later. Starting with, like teenagers and young girls, because there isn't, like, I've seen a lot of wonderful women and femme and non binary musicians recently, but like, think about when we went to school, like what, like, four people weren't men in the program. Yeah. It was like a small handful. I think your year was better than mine, though.

Maybe, yeah, I'm thinking of quite a few.

Yeah, I'm sure there. Yeah. And it's not to say that there weren't any I just think that, yeah, it's nice to have that representation and to feel safe in a space because, there are a lot of times, not just in Selkirk, but like gigging even, where I feel like I have to overcompensate what I know to be taken seriously.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Especially with sound people.

Oh, my God, especially with them. Yeah. And then your set goes well, and suddenly they're so nice to you.

Yeah.

But it's a weird thing. So I think instilling that confidence in younger people is really a space that I can occupy without feeling weird, nervous, shy.

That's cool. I feel like we could all do that with each other to, like, just not be rude about people not knowing stuff.

Totally. Yeah, totally. Because we all had to learn it at one point.

Here we are at the part of the episode where I say hello once again. And also, goodbye. Before I do that, I'll remind you, you can contact me to let me know what you thought of the episode. If you have other ideas you want to share, you can contact me via Instagram message. My handle is oceaan dot pendharkar O c e a a n dot p e n d h a r k a r. You can also email me at Oceaanpendharkar@gmail.com. To close out the episode I will play one of Carmina's tracks called "Midnight." And just before that, we'll hear her saying a little bit about the song. Thank you so much again for listening and we'll see you next time

I just really like the rawness of it. I did release like a an EP after that, that was like full band and really fun and really awesome. But I still go back to the just acoustic guitar recording of that song.

What's it about?

God I don't even know anymore. I wrote that song so long ago.

Does it mean something different now than it did when you first heard it?

It doesn't but also it doesn't feel like my song anymore. It just feels like a song that's been there. But when I wrote it, it was essentially the song is about like finding comfort in yourself and finding like self love through a sexual journey and through partnership with other people. I went to a very religious school, a lot of like shame around any kind of sexuality. And I feel like I am a very just like naturally sensual person. Like I've never felt uncomfortable with nudity or any of that stuff. But there was that weird like pushback with everyone that I grew up with and yeah, so Midnight is pretty much just about feeling fully myself.

[music: Midnight by Carmina Rae]

Turn around

Just to catch a glimpse of you

Fast asleep I just need you near

Steady now

Or I'll get ahead of myself

Been so long since I've wanted to be someone else

At midnight

I'll take your hand in mine and make you feel like

A moment locked in time is all we need

I've never felt the way you make me feel

Take a breath

Comfortable beneath my skin

Breathing prayers up to gods that I don't believe in

I'll be your midnight choir

Don't care who's around

If you do, keep a hand on my mouth I won't make a sound

At midnight

I'll take your hand in mine and make you feel like

A moment locked in time is all we need

I've never felt the way you make me feel

Ooooh

At midnight

I'll take your hand in mine and make you feel like

A moment locked in time is all we need

I've never felt the way you make me feel

Transcript generated by Otter.ai and edited by the Grounded Futures team.