This week on Should I Care? we (Sophie Griffiths & Ruthie Walmsley) get into the question doing the rounds at the minute: are courses dead? Is everyone meant to have a community now? Is passive income over? We've both been here long enough to have watched the pendulum swing all the way one way & start coming back, so we dig into what's actually shifted & what hasn't.

The thread running through all of it is that the transformation is the thing that matters, & everything else can flex around it. Sophie's sold the same course 5 different ways at 5 different price points. The gate everyone used to pay to get through is open now, so what people are actually buying is your perspective, & that changes what a course, a community & an offer suite need to do.

In this episode:

• Why the more specific the problem you solve, the easier the thing is to sell, & why the does-it-all membership has quietly stopped working
• The Superfan Sprint reframe: one transformation, 5 delivery models, & how to flex the format without touching what people actually came for
• Why "you'll get a community of amazing women" sells nothing, & what a community has to do to earn its place on the sales page
• The rose, bud, thorn system that keeps a group actually talking, & why nobody fills in a wins post unless you build it in from day one
• Why the DIY downsell off the back of your big program almost never sells, & what to build instead

New episodes every Tuesday.

Follow Sophie: @sophiegriffithsco & Ruthie: @firstpersonnarrative

When you're ready, here's the next step:

Outrageous – for established women coaches and service providers who want one offer designed to hit 6 figures without them being the engine of every sale. [Find out more]

Welcome to this week's episode of Should I Care?

With me, Sophie Griffiths

I'm me, Ruthie Walmsley

So how are you doing?

Thank you, my love.

on a Monday this week, so it feels slightly different.

Doesn't it?

Different energy.

Yeah, I know.

I'm always really productive on a Monday.

It's my one day where I don't normally have any meetings, so, I get all the,

like, stuff for the week out the way.

So generally, I feel quite good on a Monday

I, mm, no, I'm, - I think I was about to lie and say , I love

find

嗯

challenging.

, I've had a lot of coffee this morning, which I'm not, I'm not normally a

coffee person, but I have had an iced coffee and I feel a little bit fizzy.

So

fizzy.

If anyone's listening on 1.5, , maybe turn us down to 1.2.

we might be a bit overexcited

be put on 1.5

No.

I do have that question actually, 'cause I put most people on 1.5.

and then someone said they listen to me on 1.75, and I was like, ", I

can't even imagine how fast that is," because I know I talk really fast.

So to put me on 1.75 is real, like that is real strong listening skills there

when I listen to next week's episode, and I'm gonna report back.

Yeah

on just 1X these days.

I do.

at

Oh yeah

if somebody's a

Yeah

but I often find, that some of the American podcasts and

stuff that I listen to, they

naturally speak slower, I think, than

Whoo

And

I've gone right up to

Fast.

1.9. Just race through it, guys

race through it.

Just everything is speedy, fast.

I need to be quicker.

How, how's your week been?

good.

Yeah, it's been good.

The summer holidays is officially in swing here.

it's almost a relief.

You know, when you're sort of like racing towards something … But

actually I forgot that it makes the mornings a bit slower, which is

Yeah

a little bit pressure.

I've got my little spreadsheet sorted about what we're doing on what day,

so I feel good now, and we're in it.

it's nice.

I like it when, my little boy's just posturing around.

He's gone with my husband today, so they're out of the way for us

to record, 'cause you just don't need him singing in the background.

What

I mean, I'm kind of here for that.

yeah, we're good.

My girls haven't finished yet, so I've got one finishing tomorrow lunchtime, and the

other one finishing Wednesday lunchtime.

I mean, when people hear this, , they will have finished.

But this week is, , it's one of those really bitty weeks, you know?

So I've got today.

Today's a really good day, really nice and clear.

We're recording on Monday, the 20th, so, , before most schools break up.

And then I've got, yeah, Tuesday half a day, Wednesday half a day,

Thursday they're both at home, and then Friday we go on holiday.

So I feel… Yeah, I know.

So, you know when you're like, "Okay, I've got four days."

I did spend some time this morning doing my, like… I have hour one, which I have,

, 9:00 till 10:00 every Monday morning,

and I literally try and, , get down, , what exactly is it

that's my priority this week?

What's gonna get in my way?

I mean, the list of stuff that's gonna get in my way is really quite long this week.

There's a lot of stuff going on that's gonna get in my way, but I think I'm good.

I'm back in my pod, which makes me feel quite settled.

It's warm enough now that I can go for my walks without it being too hot

that , the dog's gonna, like, keel over.

So I feel like I'm getting a little bit of normality and back in day to day just

as we're going into the summer holidays.

But I agree, I think this week's gonna feel bitty.

Then we're gonna go on holiday, which will be great.

Then we'll be back, and then I think I will feel like, okay, we're in it.

I'm settled.

It's a new routine, but it is a routine, and I am definitely… for someone

who's got ADHD, I mean, I do have suspicions that I'm autistic as well,

'cause for someone who's got ADHD, I do struggle when I'm not in routine,

even though I fight against it

love a

well

we've had a really busy weekend, and I thought, "Oh, I

can't wait to have a day at my

You know

Mm.

from a,

sensory point of view, I know what

Yeah

I've been around a lot of nine-year-old boys this weekend with two

Yeah

and so I just was like, I'm gonna know it's gonna be nice and quiet.

I'm just gonna

Yeah

list of things to do." I did just wanna say, with your to-do list,

I did last week where

嗯

had this really intense week of things to remember, once I'd

written my to-do list, I read it out

to Claude.

actually, I might have

Oh

' cause

I was on my phone.

Yeah, it would've been ChatGPT.

Read it out and said, "Right, I want you to hold all of this information, and

I'm gonna check in with you about what I've done, and then I want you to tell

me what to prioritize next, and I want you to remind me what I still need to

do." it just meant that I didn't have to have the physical list in front of me.

Honestly, and it was praising me.

Oh,

Oh,

It

that sounds ideal

And on the morning of Will's birthday party on Saturday I was like, okay."

And he was like, don't forget you need to take three party bags for

the boys that aren't gonna be there.

packed everything.

You're good.

He's gonna have a great time.

Now's the time to just sit back and enjoy the memories." And I

was like, "Mate, thanks." I was

if you've got a lot to

remember this week, give it a

it

Yeah Oh, I love that.

Okay, I'm gonna try and do that actually.

What I have started doing is, so writing it all out and then taking a

picture of it and putting it in and getting Claude to put it in ClickUp.

The trouble is I then don't look at ClickUp.

So maybe I will get Claude to hold me accountable.

Maybe I'll have an accountability thread 'Cause I do enjoy the praise.

I do enjoy a little bit of feedback when I'm, like, ticking loads of stuff off.

So

on, on Sunday we had a football presentation and I

needed to remember my laptop.

And I just hadn't, I'd completely forgotten that it

was gonna be on my computer.

and I was just like, "Right, what haven't I got? what might I have forgotten?"

And he was like, "Have you got your laptop?" I was like, "No,

No.

Oh my God.

See, loving this way of using AI.

All right, I'm gonna try it this week and I'll report back.

for your

I love it.

Me too.

I know, I literally can't wait.

Okay, so what are we talking about today?

We're talking about , are courses dead?

Are courses dead?

are courses dead?

Are communities replacing everything?, Do our office suites still work?

Are we still in passive income vibes?

, Or are we sort of over-delivering in communities?

Does everyone want a community?

Does every course need a community?

We're just gonna dig into it, because I think

We've been around quite a while now, and I think you said, when we were

talking about this, you said, you know, to every pendulum swing one way, the

pendulum will swing back the other way.

And I think a little bit like fashion, we start to see things coming back around.

I feel like I'm almost that, , elderly lady who's like, "Oh,

we're going down this road again.

Ah, well, I've been here before.

Oh, I see." So , I think we're both in a really good place to talk

about, , what's selling well, but also, , what are people enjoying, , why

people are joining communities or not.

Are people still , doing DIY?

We're gonna dig into it all really.

Where should we start?

I think … Go on

just think it's a, it's,

such a good topic to dig into because we spent a lot of time and energy creating

these offers, and it's easy to slip into the trap of either creating what everyone

else is creating because you see that as like a trend, so I've gotta do that

because that's what everyone's doing.

Or creating something that you want to create without really spending

much time thinking about is the audience appetite there for it.

is this actually what people are wanting right now?

So yeah, I think it would be really useful for our listeners to have a think about

it, listen to what we've seen, like you said, as sort of part of the older guard

in the online

Yeah.

we've seen work previously, what we think is working now.

Just think it's useful to have these chats, 'cause

when you're working on

Yeah

or if you're working in isolation, you can miss out on some of the really

important insight that comes from having chats about these sorts of things.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I wonder if,, it might be useful for me to share my current offer suite,

Cause mine evolves all the time, , 'cause I love a pivot, I love a

new course, I love a new program.

But as much as it is just, , me with my slightly ADHD brain getting a little

bit bored and wanting to do something new, I do also think one thing I'm

really good at is responding to what people want and how people kind of want

to interact and what they want from me, and then kind of balancing that

with, , how I wanna run my business.

And we've talked about this before, if you've heard the podcast

before, , I am, I'm definitely an over-deliverer, and, what I will do

is always add in, like, one-to-one.

That's my, like, main little red flag when I'm, , selling an offer or

when I'm creating an offer, I will always try and add in one-to-one.

And I had a really big realization, , , probably about a year ago, that,

it's really not sustainable to add one-to-one to every offer all the time.

And it then doesn't help me differentiate my offers.

It then, , blocks up my diary and actually, you know, I had to learn

to really trust that my knowledge was enough in some cases, and that

actually direct access to me isn't always necessary to get the outcome.

And as much as my ego didn't really wanna hear that, I think it was also,

, confidence in creating content and being able to articulate, I guess, what I

teach people and how I help them that will allow them to get that result on

their own without them having to have one-to-one contact with me So at the

moment I have, a totally passive course.

So I have ABC, which is the audience builder course, which is literally

how you set up ads basically.

And, I'm pretty sure that's 197, and you can buy anytime.

In all honesty, I don't really proactively sell a huge of those a lot of the time.

The main one, if someone comes to me saying, "I wanna run ads, I wanna learn

how to do it," is the Superfan Sprint.

That's the one that I personally feel like benefits the most

people because it's not just ads.

It's like I will help you with your lead magnet, with your welcome sequence, . and

then with your ads and making sure you're bringing in super fans, not just growing

a list of people who aren't gonna buy.

That one, I think that one's a really interesting offer.

Maybe we'll dig into that one a little bit because I play with that offer a lot.

Not because I'm pivoting and being boring, but because I try and read what people

want at different times of the year.

So I have the core course that's there all the time, and then I add different

levels of support for different lengths of time at different points.

So I think that one might be quite interesting to dig into.

I then have Outrageous, which is my big signature program.

That's the one that I think if you want to work with me and you wanna scale

your business, if you wanna grow a group program, that's really the one that,, you

come into because it's got the offer work, the ads work, and then the selling work.

So that's the big one.

But at the baseline level, you don't get one-to-one.

You get me reviewing your content every week, your strategy or your

offers or you get me reviewing.

So I guess there is an element of one-to-one, though it's not on Zoom.

and then there is a great community.

There's group calls.

. I guess, if you think of signature program.

It's like the full all singing, all dancing program

I'm inside

You're in it, yeah

them on their content, and it, I think view of that experience

is it feels high touch as well.

they are … You are not hands-off in there.

Whilst it might not have one-to-one specifically, I don't think anyone

in there would feel like they're not getting a lot of Sophie

. Yeah, and , I guess that is how I really want it to feel.

, I want to be present.

, Obviously I have you, in there doing the copy coaching every week,

and I have Christina, who does the self-leadership coaching every week.

So there's definitely other coaches, which is really helpful for me, and I

think also gives a better experience.

But I wouldn't say, like, it's at the cost of me being there.

It's like, it's additional support.

It's not alternative support.

and there is a VIP level to Outrageous where you get then, , a

monthly one-to-one, either with me, with you, or with Christina.,

And then I have actual one-to-one.

And like my actual one-to-one, I either go have 30 days, which is a VIP day, and then

30 days in Slack, or I have six months one-to-one, which is two calls a month.

I'm in Slack literally Monday to Thursday every week…. , one of my

lovely clients described it as like, "We want you on the bus with us.

in the bus, like on the bus.

This is not just us coming to you being like, 'Oh, can you check our

ads?' This is you saying, 'Okay, what's our ad strategy for next week?

How are we gonna get more sales?

, Looks like sales are down.

How can we, like, get that up?'" It's a real partnership model,

which I really, really love.

but again, you're not getting community there.

You're literally just working with me.

So , where are you at right now with offers before we dig into them?

a, moment where I probably am really giving this some thought.

And so a long time my office stack has literally being, has been like retainer.

I've just

Yeah

doing done for you services.

, actually loved that.

, For a really long time felt yeah, this is really good.

loved the predictability of it, loved knowing that people have got me locked

in, . So yeah, , I'd say for certainly the first, probably four to five years

of my business, that's been the model.

, Obviously the landscape has changed dramatically in the way that people

create stuff for their business.

So when I first started creating content for people, whether that be copywriting

or whether that be, social media content or, for some of my clients, I create

stuff for inside their businesses.

So it'll be workbooks and courses and stuff like that, that

their members have access to.

That was, like, such an arduous task for people to do themselves.

hours and hours of work.

and you had to have a really broad skill set that often people didn't have.

So , the way that I could deliver that for people was often like, "Oh my

God, you're amazing. I cannot believe you've taken this off my plate."

now in 2026, the landscape is, unrecognizable from where it

was in 2020 and 2021, let's say.

Where

Yeah

" Oh yeah, cool." they know that they probably could've

done it themselves with AI.

output wouldn't have been as good.

it's only ever as good as the person prompting it, they could do it.

It's not hard to generate captions.

It's not hard to generate graphics anymore.

And so part of it's that.

Part of it is that I'm an absolute glutton for praise,

Yeah

part of it, genuinely, if I'm being completely honest, I think part of

it's that, is that people aren't as impressed anymore because , they can

whiz up an okay output on their own.

so they probably don't need me writing it .. so yeah, I'm looking at my offers

like the minute and trying to bring more of it back into my own autonomy.

I feel sometimes that I'm at the mercy of people deciding whether or not they still

value paying for someone to do that for them, I like the idea that I would have

more control over it if it were my offers, , my programs, all of that sort of stuff.

And, it speaks to the teacher in me.

I love being the person, I love delivery, I love, you know, space.

I love all of that stuff.

It's in my bones at this point.

So yeah, at the minute I've got, obviously retainer work at kind of the top end.

At the lower cost end, I've now got my group program, which is like a 12-month

program called The Bloody Good Story Club.

and it just speaks to one specific problem, which is consistency.

and so it's just

Yeah

prompts to use on their own social media with a storytelling

kind of feel behind it.

we do co-working so that you can actually get it done.

Once a month I do a master class where we dive a bit deeper.

I'll help people improve what stuff they've already got.

I love that, and actually that was a passion project that's come good.

'Cause I was like, I really like the idea of it.

it's only my first cohort at the minute.

I'm launching it again in September.

But proof of concept, like that works.

and then I've got storytelling shifts, which is like a one-to-one,

one-off experience, power hours.

But as we speak now, I'm building out a new offer that kind of is more

of like a one-to-one experience with me,- like content coaching, where

I'm holding you to account, but helping you on a more regular basis.

So at the minute, you've either got like a one-off experience or a 12-month

experience or a retainer experience, but nothing in that middle space.

So I'm trying to create something there purely because, as you say, I've seen

an appetite for it emerging, where

Yeah

aren't quite at the point where they want retainer or, if I'm honest,

don't see the value anymore with AI of retainer, but still need more

than , a one-off call would help.

They wanna given personalized, so the group program might not be

for them 'cause they want it to be specific to them with a total focus.

And I've seen, I'd say really specifically the last couple of months on calls I've

been on, I'm like, "Oh, they would really benefit from this." So I'm trying to

shape and flesh something out at the minute as to what that might look like.

Feel really excited about that.

But my goal is to be in a place similar to where you are, where I've got clear

sort of structure in place that I can then tweak and change to help meet the

demands of the audience at the time.

Yeah.

And I think it's so interesting when I'm, , listening to you because I

think there's different people that would want, those different services.

But I also think that the thing that has really come through for me over the last,

especially maybe the last 12, 18 months, is that the more specific the problem

you solve, the easier it is to sell.

I mean, one-to-one it was, you know, always the case, but groups and

memberships, that sort of thing.

Back in 2020, 2021, even probably '22, but you could have a does-it-all

overarching membership, right?

That was the really common one.

Or even like, you know, build your entire business.

I will help you, you know, build your business and we'll do everything.

And some of those are still running and still working really well, but others

I have found over time it's much, much harder to sell that generalist.

And actually people want specificity.

Like , the Bloody Good Story Club, it solves one specific problem, consistency.

It's not aiming to solve all of your social media needs.

, It's literally just we're gonna get consistent, you're gonna put really

great content out, and I'm gonna be there to support you with that as you do it.

And actually, I think that means people are, whether they're investing

more, I don't know, maybe this is just me 'cause I love investing.

But I think then you have more things on the go.

Because it's like, okay, so I'm very specifically supporting

myself with consistency, let's say with a , Bloody Good Story Club.

And then actually I wanna run ads as well, so maybe I'll do the Superfan Sprint.

The two go really well together.

There's no overlap really there.

I would highly recommend people do both.

And , Ruthie's workshop is in the Superfan Sprint.

So , you know, specifically these go very well together.

But I think more generally as well, you know, people are having a little bit

more of a pick and mix approach rather than picking one coach, going all in on

their mega membership or mega program, and then only working with that one.

But what I do think it means is that people are looking for

different things at different times.

Sometimes I sign up to something and I'm like, "Oh, , I don't need

a community for this." Like I really just want the information.

I want to be able to dip in and grab the information and come out.

But I also then I'll have another thing where I'm like, oh yeah, this is more

of a community thing here because , I wanna hear what my peers are saying

here, or I want to be inspired, or I want to see how other people are

using this info that I'm getting.

Like I'm in an AI one and I'm like, oh, I wanna see how, what

user cases people are doing.

What are you doing with AI?

Like that's really interesting to me.

I'm really glad there's a community there because I can go off and do the

content, but I'm kind of limited by my own brain and like what's possible.

But I think it depends in terms of what you're investing in,

what becomes your priority.

So for me,, like maybe I might be in the Bloody Good Story Club and then be

like, "Actually, do you know what? I think Instagram is gonna be my number

one focus the next three months. I'm gonna level up and go to the

one-to-one offer," or whatever it is.

But I haven't needed it before because that wasn't my number one priority, and

then I like rejig my investments almost.

think, So we were talking about community, weren't we?

Because

Yeah

in 2026.

Loads of people are, talking about community, wanting community.

The appetite is definitely there for community.

And I think know, we were saying earlier, it's like the pendulum swing of what was

this huge push over the last, some sort of two years ago and up until quite recently,

on passive income, about creating these things that you basically have to

have, next to nothing to do and they're just gonna generate income for you.

Sounds great.

we all love it.

But I think the pendulum swing to that is people feeling like they might

have bought things where maybe they could have done with more points.

Maybe they could have done with, "Actually, I thought I wanted to

self-study, but turns out I'm not very good at that, and maybe I do need, a

little bit more of a community to drive me on." but I've been lucky enough to work

on some amazing offers with my clients and so I've seen behind the scenes of

so many offers now, hundreds of them, and when community works well, it's

exactly what you just said, is when it has a very, very clear purpose and role

within the broader sense of the offer.

that AI example you used, that's sometimes what people are paying for.

what I

Yeah

what are other people doing with AI that I can just steal?

Because I don't necessarily have… you are limited by your own

imagination of what you can think of.

And it's the same with the Bloody Good Story Club in that I was

like, "Is community important?"

Yeah, because other people's posts and iterations of a prompt,

so seeing oh, that's how that person imagined that prompt.

That's how they took it.

Is so inspiring and can give you like, "Oh my God, that's how I'm gonna do it." know,

we're really open about let's be inspired by each other's, because the beauty of

storytelling is it's never identical.

even if you've got the same hook, the thread that expands out of that

hook can be completely different.

And I think when people are thinking about community, I'd really advise

against ever just shoving it in.

Because actually, it needs careful attention, a community.

A community can feel like a nightmare if it's not handled properly.

but if you can really name and place the impact it's gonna have for that

client, then when you're writing your sales page, one of my clients, we

always talk about that community is so important to the offer, all the

testimonials bring up the community.

And we talk about like maybe you'll find your next client in there,

that's one of the benefits of it.

The network is so big maybe you'll find your next freelancer, maybe

you'll find your next client, maybe you'll find your next accountability

partner, whatever it might be.

So .. i think if you can't name the purpose of the community outside of it

just being like vibes, support vibes,

Yeah

shouldn't put it in

I, totally agree.

And I think that's one of the biggest challenges that people have

when they try and put community in, and it's just like, oh yeah, you

know, A, like you say, to sell it.

It just becomes like, "And a community of other women,, for great support."

, It's not selling anything on the sales page, is it?

, That's not being like, oh my God, you know?

And, yeah, we're all looking for community, but I think , what

we're looking for, like you say, is that very specific outcome.

So , actually, is it other women who are scaling six-figure groups.

, That actually is really specific for me.

, That is like, oh, I want to see how she's scaling her group.

, Other women that , have done it a, a bit ahead of you or alongside you.

I also think when you then get people into your program, if you're not specific

about how you use the community or what the community is for, it can just feel

like a massive weight on your shoulders

of like, "No.

Oh my God, nobody's chatting.

Oh, I promised a community, a buzzy community of women, and yet nobody's

replying, and nobody's interacting with each other, and nobody's responding."

And it feels just like tumbleweed is going across, and it's just

messages from you, and then like the occasional very enthusiastic person

that like kind of sometimes replies to your, you know, does a comment.

But like, that feels frankly pretty shit.

, I have had a few of those, , you know, when you're like, you think, "Oh,

yeah, I'll add a community," and then I think the thing you've got to do is,

A, make sure that you know why it's there, and B, you've got to set it up.

You've got to give people expectations.

So in Outrageous, like mine is really set up.

Like, this is your space to, A, support each other.

Yes, definitely inspire each other, share what's working, share what's not.

But also, it's for you to give me info.

, We have two prompts.

We have a Monday prompt, which is your rose, bud, thorn.

So something that's going well, something that's kind of okay but

just a little bit we're keeping an eye on, and then the thorn is

like something that's a bit tricky.

, , those three sentences that people write every Monday are hugely important for

me to, just to get a quick temperature check of where everybody is at.

And then on a Friday, we share wins.

Now, I think it's really interesting 'cause I've been in loads of groups for

a really long time, and everyone does a wins post, and I think it's really, really

common that nobody posts their wins.

and yet, consistently, the majority of the group will post their

wins and do the rose, bud, thorn because it's in the handbook.

I set it up as something that's really important.

, It's almost like if you want to be inspired, you have to be

there inspiring everyone else.

, You have to contribute if you want to get it back.

And I kind of set that, I guess, as the standard when people come in.

This is how we interact in this group.

This is how we do it.

This is the standard.

And I'm not saying that like, you know, someone misses their wins and

we're gonna , call them out on it.

But at the same time, I am gonna keep an eye.

If someone hasn't posted their wins for three or four weeks, I'm gonna check

in on them and be like, "Are we good? Like, do we not have any wins? Are we

thinking that wins is something that has to be completed or,, that has to

be mega big?" Because to be honest, like, that can definitely happen.

So- I think you've gotta set it up in that way as well, haven't you?

I don't think you can just expect, your clients to, , make

the community what it is

And it's reciprocity, isn't it?

Yeah

I want them to be able to be inspired by each other's delivery of the prompts.

So I do the prompts myself sometimes, and I'll share them and I'll say, "Go

and steal it," or, "Here's what I did.

feel free to be inspired by it." So that you're setting the precedent

And every time I share a prompt I'm like, "Remember to share yours in the thread

so that we can celebrate each other." And it's just being consistent with the way

that you want that community to operate.

something we talked about as well is know, often when you want to

create a peer-led space, because

Yeah

exactly what I'm looking for.

What I want, I know now from being in this space long enough, that one of

the things that really works for me is when I get to spend time with people

who are a bit ahead of where I am.

I love to hear like partly some of the questions I ask on this

podcast is like, I'm sure the listeners like it, but I wanna know.

I'm like, "Yeah, let's go through your offer stack today, Soph, actually."

Yeah.

Because

useful

Yeah

oh, okay, that's how that person's doing it.

That's how that person's doing it.

And so That's really appealing to people.

So then it's thinking about how do I build the community that allows to be peer-led.

and then when you're writing your sales page, again, you've

got that absolute clarity.

When we were talking earlier about being really specific, when I wrote

my sales page for Bloody Good Story Club, which incidentally writing your

own sales page is hard when you're used to writing them for other people,

so I'm not saying it's perfect.

But when I was writing it, because it was so specific it was

so easy to say what it wasn't.

So I was like, "This is not for you if you are looking to go viral.

This is not for you if you are looking to get your content done for you.

This is for you just know you need a few more bits of

inspiration, you need a little bit of encouragement here and there.

You need someone to be able to pull you back onto the wagon when you've fallen

off." so easy to name things when you are really specific on what you're doing

and what the purpose of the things is.

So the same with the community.

If you're offering the community, you should be able to name

completely what it is that the community's gonna offer people.

Otherwise, I think it can just be this beast that can really escalate,

where you're trying to create something and you don't really

know what the output should be.

Yeah., I think it's really, really important.

I don't think it's thought about enough.

And I think coming back to my clickbaity title of like, our course is dead, I…

Again, this pendulum swing, like it was all about memberships back in the day.

The whole like one to many approach.

I would think like memberships were everywhere.

Everyone was doing a membership.

Then it swung to courses, and everyone was like, "Actually,

we want a very specific outcome.

We want very clear deliverables.

Like, we do want it to be more specific.

We don't just want , the membership that's gonna, gonna give you more

and more and more and more to do."

but I think the reason why the pendulum almost, I think, you know, Amy Porterfield

probably started the chatter with

Closing her real signature course that she's made millions from, almost like

swinging it back the other way, is because information is so readily available now.

You know, with AI, with, , the way that everything has shifted,

suddenly it's Like you're paying for information I think presented in a

certain way, packaged up in a way.

You're paying for it to be simple, you're paying for it to be in a certain order.

But I don't think that we necessarily are paying for information in the

same way as we were before, and I think that's where , the whole

community piece is coming back in.

And I do think memberships or lower ticket offers are having a bit of a resurgence.

, I'm seeing a lot more people starting memberships and creating them

because it's like actually people don't, they don't need necessarily

one-to-one or mega investment.

But , like you say, they need accountability, consistency.

They want up-to-date information.

So they wanna know, not just what's working on social media, they wanna know

like what's working for that six-figure coach who's doing what I'm doing.

Like you said about you doing the prompts and them , sharing it.

It's like I want… That's the kind of people I wanna work with.

I want the people who are testing it themselves, who are probably only a little

bit ahead of me, social media when I see people who are a lot further ahead of me.

So say they've got, I don't know, what like hundreds of thousands , or

millions of followers and they're like, "Oh yeah, I put this prompt

out and it worked really well."

I'm like, "Yeah, because you've got two million followers."

Like, your post, generally your baseline is a hell of a lot higher than mine.

does it actually work for someone like me?

Whereas I think when someone's a little bit further on than you and they're doing

the doing and you can just be a low cost way of being in their world, getting

feedback, what's working, what's not, I just think that's bloody brilliant.

we- what we're paying for now… what it all worked on, when I joined the

online business space, it was like you were getting the key to the gate, right?

gatekeeping their

Yeah

paying to get a key to the gate, and I'm gonna study these modules and I'm gonna

find out what it is that I don't know.

Now, we can access it.

, no one needs the key.

The gate is open.

Gatekeeping, is wasted.

So we can't sell things in that way anymore.

What we can sell is perspective, and what we can sell is experience,

and they are unique to a person.

So that's why, storytelling works on social now is because it locks into

the things that still aren't available.

What isn't available is a unique experience or a unique perspective

that someone has learnt the hard way or done the hard yards for you.

what you're locking into.

And that's why creating relationships with people where they feel connection

and they feel like there's a mutual understanding means that, they buy into

your perspective, your unique experience.

And so yeah, I just think knowledge, I don't think it's

that courses are dead per se.

I don't.

But I think courses in the traditional sense of here's a load of knowledge.

if you think about it even bigger than that.

I was… I can't remember, it might have even been you, Soph, I was talking

about, but how relevant are university courses gonna be for some subjects?

Obviously there will always be, specific industries and

specific careers that require it.

But for some subjects, how is knowledge anymore?

it's not

Yeah

It's actually, from an educational point of view, a bit boring, but , the

acquisition of knowledge is, the bottom of the learning triangle.

There was something we used back in the day, it's called Bloom's Taxonomy, and

at the bottom is just the, rote learning.

so I just don't think it's relevant at the moment.

I think AI can do so much of that now where you can find out how to X, Y, Z,

but what people are looking for is can this person offer me a shortcut or an

easier way of doing it, or a way that they interpreted that knowledge that

made of sense to them and loads of money for them or whatever it might be.

So it's not that I think courses are dead, just think that the way that courses

have to be imagined is really different.

And I

Yeah

we also have to that, we're not in the same position we were 2020 where

we had loads of time at because of the COVID bubble and stuff.

And God, is there an appetite for sitting and watching long videos of learning?

I don't know.

I

appetite

Not really for me.

No.

I mean, I don't think I ever had it.

I d- that's not, not really my favorite way., And I think I've learned

something about myself, like, as someone who's bought a lot of courses,

been part of a lot of memberships, DIY, done with you, done for you.

, I have bought it all multiple times, and we talked about this

in the last episode, didn't we?

Sometimes I buy it knowing that I probably shouldn't because

I'm definitely not gonna do it.

But I just think I have learnt now that actually I will

either , get the knowledge I want.

That's one thing, that's one thing I'm looking for.

Do I need some very specific knowledge?

And like you say, it's not the actual knowledge, it's the

application of that knowledge.

With AI, for example,, the reason why I bought into the membership is

'cause I get AI, I understand how to use it, but I need someone to talk

me through this application of it.

How can I use it best?

How can I understand, , how to use it in a way that…

and how have you used it?

And that's why I bought that.

Or I will go for something with community accountability, something

I can feel part of, something where I can see people who are inspiring me,

who are doing the same thing as me.

, I'm part of a mastermind, and I love seeing how everyone

else's launches are going.

, What's working with launches right now, and what's working with Evergreen

and what's working with, , messaging.

, I love seeing what everyone else does.

I love those group calls.

Or sometimes I will just go one to one because I'm like, I just actually need

to move fast on this, and I just wanna work with that very specific person.

I don't need to join their group program.

I don't need to spend six months.

I just need to, , jump in with them once or every month or just to get

that very specific thing that I need.

And I think having different ways , in offer suites, I think whereas before

you could have, I know quite a few people who have built businesses on

their, , one signature offer, and all roads lead to that one offer.

, All roads lead to this one course or whatever it is.

I think for some people it works really well, but I just feel like now people

are looking for different ways , to cut that up, to take shortcuts, to

be like, like you said, "I don't need to do the whole nine months. I

actually just wanna jump in and cover this very specific thing with you."

I just think, offer suites, like we used to have the ladder, didn't you?

Where you'd like come in, and you have a low ticket and then a mid ticket and

then a high ticket and then a one-to-one.

And I'm not saying that we necessarily need to go back to that and everyone

needs to have it, but I do think offer suites have been flattened

almost into a big course and then maybe a few passive offers.

Or done for you and then nothing else.

And I think maybe they need to go back to being a little bit more like 3D

hearing you talk about that just from a marketing perspective, we know

that you like to purchase some stuff.

You're a

Oh my God, I love it.

I'm a buyer

to hear you talk about the different, needs and wants you've got when you're

looking at things, and I think it's really useful for people to hear

that and consider it when they're building their offers because, both

of us are lucky enough to see loads of women building amazing offers.

I've also seen examples of people building offers where they're building

it because they want it, as in the

Yeah

the business owner wants it.

I want to be able to charge X amount,

have

Yeah

want a high-ticket offer because I want a high-ticket offer.

And it's marketing 101 in a lot of ways, isn't it?

always have your ideal client front and center.

But what are people needing?

if they were gonna go one-to-one, what would they be coming

to you for one-to-one for?

Because it'd be… it's why I haven't moved forward in my offer

suite with one-to-one is because it's not quite straightforward

with the space So I'm like, well, what would they for one-to-one for?

What would that look like?

How would that be actually useful for them?

I want is for

Yeah

load of one-to-one, and then either recommend me to someone

else or continue because it's so transformational for their business.

So I do think we have to keep , the purchaser's needs

and wants at the heart of it.

if someone is wanting to invest in something more high ticket to have

high touch from you, what would be the useful elements of that?

If they do just need knowledge, what knowledge do they need, and how can I

package it up in the easiest way to digest possible with as many golden nuggets from

my lived experience as possible to make it not something they could get on AI.

And if I am building out a membership model or something like a membership

model, how do I make it that it continues to be worthwhile month on month?

hard when you're designing offers to not just keep yourself.

okay, what can I realistically deliver?

. What money would I like to generate from it?

But I just think this space in 2026 where knowledge is so plentiful,

knowledge, but there

Yeah

know, you can for some big names type in, "I want you to act like Alex Hormozi,"

and what would

Yeah

this?

So

Yeah.

also access some perspective.

So how can you make it unique enough to really make it worthwhile

for somebody with their wants and needs at the heart of it?

'Cause it is so true what you were saying about what you're looking for.

sometimes you know you just need one-to-one, don't you?

I know at the minute I probably should be working with someone one-to-one.

I'm just being too tight to do it because I'm like, "Well, I wanna go

on holiday," and, "I wanna do this, I wanna do that." But I know that actually

probably to up-level my business to the next level, I probably do need to

work with someone one-to-one because I know that's probably where- where

I make my biggest transformations when I've worked one-to-one before,

I've actually got shit done.

So yeah, it's just interesting to hear you talk about what you're

looking for as a purchaser as well as how you operate as a business

Yeah.

And I think, you know, , it is so interesting, and I think, you know, even

if you've got a community that's been running quite a long time, a membership

or a course you've been doing for a long time, there's always … Often

I work with clients 'cause they come to me feeling quite overwhelmed.

So when we're, , scaling , group offer, they'll often come to me 'cause they

sort of hit a plateau in some way.

So it's like I get people in, you know, people come in, people love

it, people get great results, but I'm feeling like it's taking over my life.

It's just so much.

, And I feel like I'm constantly bringing people in and, and then, like you say,

creating more content and making sure it's worthwhile staying and making

sure they're getting the results.

, And actually a lot of the time we will go back to their clients and almost be like,

", what bits of this are you actually using?

What bits would be helpful?" And so often the feedback is like, "There's

already loads of content here.

I don't need any more knowledge.

I actually need the space and accountability and time to implement it."

of having,, a new workshop every month, could maybe one month it

be more like a planning session or a, you know, a hands-on session or

implementation or whatever it is.

, So often the actual feedback from clients is like, "There's loads of info here.

I actually need your help, , doing it, not actually just learning it."

And I think the other thing, I'll just talk a little bit about Superfan

Sprint because I think, this is a real interesting balance between what

I want versus what my clients want.

So it was about, it was this time last year, I just, did Superfan Summer

Sprint this time last year, and I did it as an eight-week hands-on course.

All the usual stuff community, group calls.

They had access to, , the course.

I created the core course.

and then they had, yeah, community in Slack, and then group calls,

and then loads of other, you know, bits that they get with it.

And it worked really well.

Got really good signups.

Worked really well.

And then we're coming up to the summer and I was like, "Oh, I've got this incredible

course here that I know works really, really well, which is really great,

but I do not have capacity to, , run this again." It was only eight weeks.

Like, I don't have capacity to run this again over the summer.

However, I really feel like people could really benefit, especially

If you're in an industry where you've got a bit of downtime or you don't have

kids, you know, who are young or whatever, you've just got a bit more space.

And so I was like, "Yeah, okay.

People could actually do this over the summer.

How can I make this available?

And what do they actually need from me?

, Do they just need the content?

Can they just do it on their own?

Do they really need the group calls?

Do they really need, , the Slack?" And what I realized was there was,, three

or four core things they needed from me.

, To make sure they got really good ads that worked really well

and brought in the super fans.

They needed, my feedback on their messaging, so like their Goldilocks

client and their trigger points, which I kind of work through, and their

lead magnet . Because generally, the thing that's going to make the biggest

difference about your ads, the input that you're putting in, is whether

you're speaking to your ideal client and whether you actually have a lead magnet

people want, your ideal clients want.

Then the next thing was, , the ad copy and graphics.

Definitely a thing that people really need some support on.

And then the last thing was, , once they actually get to Ads Manager, because let's

all be honest, it's a bit tricky, and, you know, it can be feel a bit techy, and

you can come up with all sorts of issues.

So what they really wanted then was for me to check their ads in

Ads Manager before they went live.

So those were, like, the three things I identified.

And actually, that's all they need from me.

So what I did was I created a one-off version to see if it would work.

. I said, , "I'm selling five of these.

You're gonna give me your feedback when you, as you do it,

but I'm creating five of them.

and you basically get access to the course, and you get these three

submissions that you get to do to me.

You fill in a form, it comes through to me, I deep dive into

everything you've given me, and then I basically send you back really

detailed and personalized feedback."

So it sold really well.

And I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting." , This is not like

just DIY, just go off and do it, because I also know from DIY,, we

all know, , accountability issues.

And with ads as well, you can come across so many, , niggles and stuff that come

in, just get in your way, and you're just like, "I'm just not doing it."

So I sold it as that.

Then I sold it in November, October time.

I did it as a three-month course where they had group calls again and Slack.

Then I sold it in April, where it was actually six months, where they got,

, monthly call rather than fortnightly.

And then I've just sold it as a three-week sprint, where actually

we did three weeks together.

and there was a weekly group call.

and still the same three submissions and everything.

And each time it sold really well, and it's been really interesting for me to

know that I can have that core course.

Like the course, it never changes.

The course is there.

The submissions are there.

The core foundations of the course are always the same.

But I can flex the level of community, the level of access to me, the level of,

, time with me, basically for what I need.

So, for example, I needed to do a three-week sprint because the summer

holidays were coming up, and I don't want to be doing it over the summer holidays.

But also, , it works really well for my clients because- These clients

who've come in and done this three-week sprint have done the same amount of

work as the people who joined and did the three-month one because, you know,

short amount of time, they wanted to do it quickly, they were really committed.

They just, , jumped in and just got it done.

And now they're ready to have their ads running over the summer, which is

the whole premise of the thing, right?

So they can step back as well.

So I don't know.

I do think sometimes we can get really stuck in this like, oh, if I have a

course, it has to be this one course that I'm doing, has to be delivered

in the same way every single time, and has to have certain things,

and actually, , it really doesn't

questions here that I think

would have.

Go on.

Yeah

I'm just wanting to highlight that basically what you're saying is the

transformation doesn't change, but the delivery and operation can change.

the price point?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have,

yeah

on your time investment presumably, and how high touch it becomes

Yeah, exactly.

So , how many sessions they have with me.

Yeah, how long it is.

, Basically the more time I'm with them, the the higher cost it is.

It doesn't flex massively.

So the standard one is 1,500.

and then the DIY I think is 997, and then I did the three-week one at 799,

because it was, less kind of time over

Yeah,

period with me

to think about actually, and got me thinking about some things within

my business because I think you are right that there's a temptation

to just like it's locked in.

It's

Yeah

I can't do anything.

But actually, what you're doing is speaking to different pockets of

your audience each time as well.

with doing that three-week sprint, that would appeal to me because I know I'm not

particularly good at staying the distance.

like a module

Yeah

Module two, okay, now I'm still watching.

Week three, got busy.

Whereas if I knew I'd just got to show up for I love a one-dayer.

I love

a clearing my

Yes.

Getting it done in one day, time to get it actually physically done.

the workshops that I do within the Bloody Good Story Club, I always

under-pack them so that they can do a lot of it on the call so that they

leave with at least some of it done.

And so I think as well as you creating something that's gonna be working for

your diary or needs at that time, you're also probably speaking to a different

pocket of your audience who are like, there'll be some people that are like,

"God, I can't do it in three weeks.

God, that gives me anxiety just thinking.

That feels rushed." But there were other people that are be like, "Yes,

that's the type of action taker I am.

I wanna get it done," or, "I've got a hard deadline for a launch coming up

that means I need my ads live, so I can't do it over six months." So I think it's

clever as well because as well as, know, responding to the needs of your time

and energy, it's also responding to the time and energy needs of your audience.

and the other thing I wanted to say- Is that when you were speaking through

it, what I was thinking about is how often I review a lot of sales pages.

I write a lot, but I also review them for people.

And what I see is this preoccupation with features and benefits.

"You are gonna get pre-filmed modules.

You're gonna get, handouts.

You're gonna get a workbook.

You're gonna get prompts to use with AI." and there was a time

where that was really appealing.

think when you focus more on what you're talking about, what you're

listing and what I always love to see on a sales page is the transformation.

What am I gonna get what will have happened to me by the end of it?

What will have been delivered by the end of it?

It's so much more persuasive, so much more easier to digest.

you know this from the workshops that you've seen me deliver.

I love a transformational bullet point.

Tell me what am I gonna do, what's gonna happen by the end of it.

Put in brackets, like an even if you.

even if you haven't got much time, even if you feel like you've done this all before.

I love those sorts of phrases in there.

What I'm not interested in, other than at a glance, I'm not saying

don't include them, but at a glance, yeah, okay, what do I get?

You're gonna get a community.

You're gonna get this.

You're gonna get that.

Great.

But instead, tell me how I'm gonna feel.

me what the output's gonna be.

And actually, what you're doing consciously or, unconsciously with

the Superfan Sprints and the changes you're making, is that you are

staying completely focused always on the transformation, and you are

experimenting flexing with the delivery and the features and benefits of it

Yeah, you're so right.

Yeah, I don't think I've… I mean, I guess I kind of did know that because

I do have, like, fundamentally, I know that the content is really good, and I

know it will deliver the transformation.

, I know by the end of it, if you follow all the steps, you will have really

good ads that deliver really good people into your world, onto your email list,

and you will have people then who are there and ready to buy your offer.

, I do know that really confidently, and so maybe it's that confidence

that gives me the, the confidence, I guess, in the content that gives

me the confidence to change around with, , the level of support.

Because . i definitely believe that.

you don't need the group calls.

You don't need the Slack for accountability.

You don't need that to get the result.

However, I do also know that some people want that to get the result.

Do you know what I mean?

, So fundamentally, the content will get you there, but I am very happy to

provide different types and levels of support for what you need to get there.

make sense?

I'm sure there are other people doing it, but it's really interesting to hear,

'cause I've not thought about things in that sort of flexible way before, of

thinking, being flexible with delivery, but keeping the, the transformation

is always the same at the heart of it.

And actually, when you were talking about the three things that you in, like what

they do really need, what I was thinking is how shit would it be without those?

And

, might perceive that the course hadn't delivered because the ads didn't

perform how they wanted them to

have offered that.

But

Yeah

also doing is you are protecting and ring-fencing the output.

So

being what they

Yes

making sure that the quality of , the experience is safeguarded a little bit.

You're saying, "I'm not gonna let people put shit ads out there, 'cause

I'm gonna cast my eyes on them first.

I'm not gonna let these niggles ruin someone's ad performance and them feel

that maybe it happened because of the Superfan Sprint, because I'm gonna go

into their ads manager and just check everything's, okay." So again, it's clever

in that it's offering safety and security for the person, but it's also offering

safety and security for the course.

Because what I see, and, again, I think it's probably the teacher in me, is

sometimes when I've bought courses, I've thought, "This is shit. This is actually

not how people learn. This has not been built in a way that is conducive to

people getting the output." And so it's also making sure, do I honestly believe

that if they did this on their own, could they get a good enough outcome?

Or are there touch points that they need that aren't necessarily one-to-one,

but are there little touch points that they need with me in order for that

output to be good enough for me to get the testimonials and for , them to have

that amazing experience that we always want our clients or purchasers to have.

So yeah, I found that really interesting hearing you, talk about

the way that you've, altered things.

And I generally started as a bit of an experiment, but I do actually

really now believe that , it's a brilliant and, , flexible thing

that I have in my offer suite now.

, Generally, , if I need a, , a revenue, , input or a little, , top-up,

I can do that, but also I can make it available to people in a way that

really works for them at the time of year as well, that kind of works.

So,

interesting.

I don't think it sounds like you think that courses are dead per

se, but I think the traditional knowledge-based, module-based courses

perhaps aren't the appetite, perhaps isn't there as much as it was.

I'm sure there is still appetite for it, but I think it's that, that individual

perspective, that individual unique experience that you can offer as a coach

or as a person delivering the content that people are more interested in

Yeah.

I think , probably for me, one of the biggest things I think with clients

that come to me and they have big signature group programs or they're

running a group program and it's really great, and they're having people say

to them like, "Oh, I can't afford it 'cause it's like higher ticket."

They will often then say, " So what I did was I packaged up a DIY version of just

the content, and then I offer people that, you know, as a downsell, but hardly anyone

buys it." And I always say that's because they're not looking for the knowledge.

They're looking to work with you.

They're looking for that transformation.

I find generally, there's a few outliers, a few clients who've

managed to do it very well.

But generally, I find if your main thing is the program and then you are selling

just the content off the back of it, you will find it very, very hard to do that.

You'd be much better creating a intentionally DIY offer with a very

specific outcome that allows people to get to a point where they're then

ready to come into your bigger program than you are just giving them the

knowledge from the bigger program.

Does that make sense?

knowledge, and this is, straw poll of one, but for me, what I see where

knowledge-based courses are still doing well, it's when the knowledge is brand

new, where it's something that is super new… the information is out there,

but it's really hard to break down, and so you're looking for someone who

has already applied the knowledge that you can, still get chunking of it.

because sometimes what you need is someone's expertise to say,

"Do this first, then do that."

Yeah

Knowledge-only courses can still be attractive to people, but I think

it's one of those things where it has to be that thing of the moment,

Yeah

that people are just learning about that you've got a little bit ahead on, that you

Yeah

share that knowledge with them.

I

Yeah

of these, yeah, I just think with all of it really, it is just

about this personal perspective.

That's my view,

I always buy person first.

, Yeah

I wanna know what they know, or I wanna do

Yeah

do, or they seem to be working in a way that would maybe work for me.

So I think it's recognizing… I say this with social as

well, like what are you liking?

If you wanna know

social, have a look at , what's stopping you in your tracks?

What are you engaging with?

I think it's the same, what are you tempted to buy?

tempted

Yeah

at the moment?

And then sit with it and be like, what was it about it that made me wanna buy it?

Is it the person?

Is it what they're offering?

Is it their income?

Like what am I attracted to?" Because then you can apply that

to your own as well and see if you can make it work in the same way.

yeah, 100%.

So yeah, I think should we care?

I think we should care that there's a noise about courses and community and,

you know, I think we should care about our offer suites, But I don't think we

need to buy into the fact that, , all courses are dead, or you have to have

a membership now to scale, or that you can only run a course with a community,

or you can only not run a course, you know, if it's not got a community.

, I think we need to, , just take a look at your audience and take a

look at what they're really craving.

'Cause I think it, yeah, generally it's, like you say, it's personal perspective,

and then it's accountability, and it's them, I think it's actually them feeling

confident they're gonna get , the transformation that you're promising.

And sometimes that is you giving them confidence they're gonna do it

with accountability, and sometimes that's you giving them a community

of other people to inspire them.

Or it could be, with me, , the three submissions.

, It could be that confidence comes from them having a way

of getting feedback in some way

that we should care about is the transformation.

I

less

Yeah

what the vehicle for the transformation is, and more about what is the

transformation and how can you safeguard that transformation,

And then the you should be, the different ways in which you can

still offer that transformation,

ticket or whether that's lower entry point.

as long as you're confident in yourself that you can offer that transformation and

the quality will be there, then I think that's the thing that we should, always

care about, is the transformation, and let the offer flex and fit around that

Yeah, 100% agree.

we do.

That's

we do

Course we do.

That's our thing.

Okay.

oh, that was really good.

I really enjoyed talking about all that stuff.

as always

always, I was trying to get some free coaching here.

I was just like,

" Yeah,

Making,

You're welcome

notes.

but yeah, I think that hopefully loads of the people listening will get that

too, where it's got them thinking about maybe additional offers they could put

into their suite or ways that they could take something they've already got and

reimagine it and, do what you've done with the Superfan Sprint, which is have

different iterations of it that might have been putting off 'cause you're

thinking now's not the right time.

But maybe if you did a shorter version of it or, a one-day version of it,

maybe that's such an interesting way to create newness without having

to completely reinvent the wheel

Yeah, absolutely., And if you do, , let us know.

We love to hear when you're listening to the podcast and when you enjoy it,

and if you, , take any action from it or change anything, , please do let us know.

We absolutely love it.

And if you haven't already,, please do go and rate and review because, it

does help more people find us, and we really love getting all of your DMs.

But, , we would also really like some reviews on, on Apple as well.

That would be really great.

Thanks so much

helpful.

And also, I would love to know, and, please feel free to DM us

with this, if you've got an offer right now that is just killing it,

Yes.

Yeah

, What's been really good?

'Cause I think that would be so interesting to hear, and maybe us

be able to share about, offers that have been really working for people

Yeah, we're very happy to give you a shout-out.

So yeah, let us know, what's working really well, 'cause I

think that's so interesting.

And this isn't a conversation we'll just have once.

, I have no doubt as we, , we do our own offers, and we go through launches, and we

kind of see what's happening and towards the end of the year, , it always shifts.

So, yeah, we would love to hear from you.

Okay.

Have a

lovely day, and we will see you next Tuesday