The Eras of Kelly Willis. Spoiler Alert, She's Enjoying this one the Most

In this episode of 'Curious Goldfish', host Jason English has a fun conversation with Kelly Willis, a successful figure in Country Music, who doesn't seem to be slowing down one bit.

Kelly revisits her journey of saying 'yes' more to life's opportunities and talks about her music life evolving from 'rockabilly' to 'country'. She shares her fight against social anxiety and discusses the importance of curiosity and fun in her craft. She gives us a glimpse into the formation of her new trio, the 'Wonder Women of Country' and shares plans for a new EP release. She also emphasizes how her perspective about herself and her career has positively changed, surprising even herself with the enjoyment that she finds in her music career at 55.

00:00 Introduction: The Power of Saying Yes

01:13 Welcome to Curious Goldfish: A Music Podcast

01:44 Interview with Kelly Willis: A Music Industry Veteran

02:21 Meeting Kelly Willis: The Queen of Austin, Texas

02:31 The Beauty of Austin and the 30A Festival

05:11 The Art of Songwriting and Co-Writing

09:25 The Power of Affirmation and the Impact of Taylor Swift

12:59 The Wonder Women of Country: A New Era

17:33 Overcoming Social Phobia: A Personal Journey

18:41 Overcoming Stage Fright and Building Confidence

19:50 The Evolution of Social Awareness and Self-Care

20:37 The Pressures of Being in the Spotlight

21:30 The Importance of Curiosity and Continuous Learning

24:05 Exploring Musical Inspirations and Influences

25:58 The Journey of Songwriting and Creative Freedom

27:04 Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Aspirations

29:02 The Changing Landscape of the Music Industry

31:40 Reflections on Career Progression and Personal Growth

32:05 A Live Performance to Wrap Up the Interview

These days I say yes a lot to things.

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Maybe it was last summer.

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I called it my summer of yes.

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And I decided to just, because my natural

instinct was to say no to everything,

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just like protect myself, isolate myself.

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For many years, I think maybe because

of all the kids I had and just the, you

7

know, exhausting it was, I kind of like

to have time where I was just quiet.

8

And so I got into the habit of saying no.

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And I, I decided to take a summer

where if I got invited to do something.

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My instinct would be no and I would

have all the reasons to say no and

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then but I would tell myself you

have to wait Until you come up with a

12

reason to say yes, and then you have

to say yes So I said yes to all these

13

things that came along and it was the

best thing that I could have done.

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Jason English (Host): Welcome to

Curious Goldfish, a podcast community

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where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

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with the music makers of our world.

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I'm your host, Jason English.

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You can find Curious Goldfish and all the

major podcasts and social media platforms.

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And of course we have all of our

content on our website, curiousgoldfish.

20

com.

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It was a real honor to be able to

talk with Kelly Willis, a 35 year

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veteran of the music industry.

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Her perspective is obviously unique,

but the most refreshing aspect

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of my chat with her is seeing how

excited she is for what's to come.

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It's almost like she's hit

the reset button at age 55.

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And you can see the excitement in

her eyes and hear the anticipation

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in her voice when she talks

about the rest of this year.

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It all starts with a newly formed

female super trio, the Wonder Women of

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Country, which she tells us all about.

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She also performs a song called Looking

Forward to Looking Back, which is a

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fitting summary of where she sits in

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Here's Kelly Willis, the

Queen of Austin, Texas.

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Let's dive in.

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Kelly Willis.

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So nice to meet you.

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Kelly Willis: It's nice to meet you, too.

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Jason English (Host): I mean, here we are.

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We're at a beach house

overlooking the Gulf.

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The sun is out.

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Kelly Willis: stunning.

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It's so beautiful.

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Jason English (Host): I mean, I know

Austin is awesome for a lot of reasons,

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but Austin doesn't have this, does it?

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Kelly Willis: No and the Texas

Beach does not look like that.

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Jason English (Host): It's

the middle of January.

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It's a little chilly, but come on.

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, it's okay.

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I love a cold beach.

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I think that's a whole, a whole

nother kind of vibe, vacation.

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Love it

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Jason English (Host): a scarf on.

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It's, it, it, it all fits.

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, I love it.

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Jason English (Host): How often

have you been to the 30A festival?

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Kelly Willis: is my first time.

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Yeah.

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Jason English (Host): did,

how did that come about?

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Kelly Willis: I don't know.

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I don't know why they asked me.

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I'm glad they did.

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I feel really honored to be

included as a songwriter.

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I've always considered myself

more of a singer, but I do write

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songs, and um, so yeah, I'm just,

I'm glad that that it happened.

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I don't know how these things happen.

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I just get a phone call and then

I get to play decision maker.

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I get to be this powerful God.

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Will I or won't I?

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Yes, I will.

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Usually I will.

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Jason English (Host): Well, it's

probably like this podcast interview.

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You're like, Oh, I guess

I'll show up and do

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Kelly Willis: exactly.

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I'm like, well, that could be fun.

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These days I say yes a lot to things.

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I am.

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Um, maybe it was last summer.

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I called it my summer of yes.

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And I decided to just, because my natural

instinct was to say no to everything,

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just like protect myself, isolate myself.

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For many years, I think maybe because

of all the kids I had and just the, you

81

know, exhausting it was, I kind of like

to have time where I was just quiet.

82

And so I got into the habit of saying no.

83

And I, I decided to take a summer

where if I got invited to do something.

84

My instinct would be no and I would

have all the reasons to say no and

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then but I would tell myself you

have to wait Until you come up with a

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reason to say yes, and then you have

to say yes So I said yes to all these

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things that came along and it was the

best thing that I could have done.

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I just I made friends.

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I did things I wrote

songs I had I was on gigs.

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I made connections.

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It was just wonderful and so I

don't say yes to everything now,

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but I try to say yes to most things.

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Yeah, I mean, that's, that's

one of the perks of being

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in a career for a long time.

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At some point you can make, you

can shape it the way you like.

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Um, so yeah, I mean, I'm not going

to do everything, but, uh, you

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know, I'm, I'm much more open.

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Jason English (Host): What

was the most surprising?

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Yes, that you, uh, that turned out

in a way that you didn't anticipate.

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Kelly Willis: I went on a writer's retreat

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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Kelly Willis: I would never do that

cause I have a lot of social anxiety, so

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just the idea of being with people that

much, and co writing is a scary thing.

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Co writing is so vulnerable and it,

to me, it feels like it could go off

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the tracks and be awkward and weird,

just like a lot of potential disaster.

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But I did that and it was with these

other women and I loved all of them

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and we had a great time and we wrote

some good songs and, uh, I just.

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Realize that I could do it.

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I had just been afraid to do it,

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Jason English (Host): That's incredible.

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Take me through like, you know,

a snapshot of like an hour

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or two in that environment.

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Do you, do you come in with ideas?

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Do you put it on a whiteboard and say, you

know, that kind of could work with this?

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Does one person come in with something

half baked and you kind of help refine it?

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How does

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, I mean there

was just a group of us and we would

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all just kind of look around and

go You want to write one together?

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It was really not that organized.

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It was just kind of who and Then

ultimately there'd be like two people who

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were like, well, we're the only two left.

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Let's go right together.

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So it's very casual and for me I

came in with some ideas and The other

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girls helped me finish those songs

I don't really have a strong skill

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in helping other people finish their

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Jason English (Host): Right.

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Kelly Willis: Um,

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Jason English (Host): different, right?

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That's a different,

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Kelly Willis: it's very

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Jason English (Host): different skill.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Kelly Willis: Um, for me anyway, uh,

I don't think on my feet that fast.

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I like to sit and mull and,

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because

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tinker with it and mess with it

and then completely scrap it.

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Come back with something

a little different.

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And so, usually I've done a lot

of that before I bring a song in

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to get someone to help me with it.

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out of

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to help someone finish their

song is a it's just a different

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skill set I mean, I've

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Jason English (Host): song as well.

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Kelly Willis: huh?

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Jason English (Host): That's the

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Kelly Willis: Oh god, definitely the

heartbreak I mean, that's the stuff you

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remember.

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Jason English (Host): the layup, yeah.

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Kelly Willis: remember the

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good things that have happened to me.

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Are you kidding?

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Jason English (Host): Don't say that.

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Right.

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It's just about,

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Kelly Willis: They're just

they just fly by but the the

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bad stuff sticks with you and

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my Oh

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Painful stuff the stuff you want to

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a queen.

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just emote But yeah, personal

experience and some little thing will

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happen like I'm, I've written this

song called From a King to a Queen.

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And it's just about, uh, I got

divorced two years ago and I had

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to get rid of my, this giant bed.

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Jason English (Host): That's amazing.

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Kelly Willis: I know.

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And I'm just thinking about it.

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I was like,

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so just little things like that

are the stuff that gets me.

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Going.

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Jason English (Host): really good, yeah.

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Kelly Willis: Thanks.

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Thanks.

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It's not ready for prime

time yet, but it exists.

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Jason English (Host): So one thing I

forgot to mention, we're here at this

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music festival and I'm talking to,

you know, a few artists and you talked

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about singing and then songwriting.

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One of the artists I interviewed

yesterday, his name's Matt Killough.

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I don't know if you know who he

is, but he's, , a newer artist.

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He has one album.

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He lives in Nashville now.

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He's from Georgia.

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And he was just, you know, we're

getting ready for the interview and he's

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like, so who else are you talking to?

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And I mentioned a couple of people

and I was like, Oh yeah, I'm

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talking to Kelly Willis tomorrow.

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And he's like, wait, what?

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And he said, listen, for me, it's

Patty Loveless and it's Kelly Willis.

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Kelly Willis: my god, that's

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amazing.

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Jason English (Host): So I wanted

to tell you that because I was

192

like, well, she'd love to hear

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, that's so

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sweet.

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Jason English (Host): mean, Patty

Loveless just got into the hall of

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fame,

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Kelly Willis: Yes, I'm and I was on

MCA when Patty Loveless was there, so I

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got to see it her up close in a person.

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She's

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amazing

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Jason English (Host): You talk about

relationships and love languages,

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you know, words of affirmation

are always like important.

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so

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Kelly Willis: cool, it's very nice,

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Jason English (Host): think it's important

to tell people, uh, when you hear

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good things.

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And so, you know, I thought you'd get

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Kelly Willis: I'll

completely forget that of

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course

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I'll be gone

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Jason English (Host): can't forget that.

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Kelly Willis: No,

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Jason English (Host):

Don't, don't be a goldfish.

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Like there's certain, there's

certain times when you should be

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a goldfish where, you know, forget

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mistakes and stuff, but

things you should hold on

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Kelly Willis: maybe I should write it

down and have a little mirror affirmation.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

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exactly.

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So you mentioned MCA, which

leads me to a thing about eras.

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Are you Taylor Swift fan?

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Kelly Willis: I'm in this funny little

spot that I've not like a crazy Taylor

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Swift fan, but I'm, I don't have

anything against her, but I'm impressed.

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Incredibly

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impressed with her.

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Jason English (Host): Well, I was going

to ask you, you know, you've had this

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incredible career and your perspective

on what she's been able to do, at 32

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and coming up through through country.

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And now

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Kelly Willis: I know

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Jason English (Host): mean, what,

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Kelly Willis: she blows me away.

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I feel like she's kind

of like a different,

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she's

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nobody like that.

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The people who are that talented,

that young and it's like she's like

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superman from some other planet, right?

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We can't compare ourselves to her.

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She's unique and

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Yeah, it blows my mind what she's

done to go from country to pop

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and to be so powerful and yet,

vulnerable and all that stuff.

242

It's really impressive.

243

And to be that good, that

young is crazy to me.

244

Um, yeah,

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Jason English (Host): but I was blown

away because she had 75, 000 people in the

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palm of her hand and it was like ultimate

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power.

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And I'm like, good for her,

you know, like good for her.

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So,

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, she does it all.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, Anyway,

I bring that up because, she had the

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eras tour and, you've had this career.

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You, I think you've had

your own eras, right?

254

So you mentioned MCA, that's

probably maybe the first

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era.

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Is that fair?

257

Yeah,

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And I'm not going to get these

in the right sequential order,

259

but there was MCA that you went,

uh, you do a little rockabilly.

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Is that part of the same era or is that

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its

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own

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Kelly Willis: say I was rockabilly first.

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So it was a rockabilly

and a rockabilly band.

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And then I moved to from the

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D.

267

C.

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area and I moved to Austin.

269

And, within two years from living

in Austin, I got my MCA deal.

270

So I was

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20 when I got that

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Jason English (Host): And

that was like in the late

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eighties, right?

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89 or 90.

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Yeah,

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Kelly Willis: and I think

my record came out in 90.

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So, rockabilly first, and

then much more country.

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Um, I'm a

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second.

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Jason English (Host): And then

yet you're a mother, right?

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And

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you're still a mother, but

like there was probably

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raising,

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raising your son.

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And you know, that's

probably its own era, right?

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Kelly Willis: I got my RICO record

deal and I made this, what I

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deserve record before I had kids.

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And I, I'd probably call that a

different era because that was much

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more of an independent kind of country

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folk

291

thing for me and where I

really started writing songs.

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And then I got married

and had kids and then I,

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I had four

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kids in that time and

that was survival mode.

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So that was

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different.

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Jason English (Host): All in.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Right.

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Kelly Willis: because that

was so all consuming and

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difficult.

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That's when my husband and I started

performing together and more of a

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duo, um, just, you know, to keep it all

306

in house kind of, you

know, it just kind of

307

worked better that way.

308

Jason English (Host): that

time you and Bruce that that's

309

probably its own era as well.

310

Right?

311

Yeah.

312

Yeah, What's the era today?

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Kelly Willis: You know,

it's funny because, um,

314

so I'm 55 and I am having the most fun.

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I am loving my career more now than

ever, and I never would have thought

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that, and I've been out doing these shows.

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I've been,

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So my kids, I still have one at

home, but three of them are off in

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college, starting their lives, and,

320

I've been able to spend more time getting

back into touring and being on the

321

road and, uh, just gigging a lot more.

322

So I've been doing that just my

solo stuff, but also with these

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other two women, Brennan Lee and

Melissa Carper, this trio with them.

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That is so fun.

325

, they're both so talented, but I

think because we're all three,

326

we have individual bands where

our own front people, right?

327

That everyone in the band is so

invested in what we're doing.

328

Um, no one's a gun for hire that's

wondering, if they're going to

329

get paid for doing this podcast.

330

You know what I mean?

331

Like they're, which they have every

right to that's their, that's their gig.

332

But the three of us are

333

just like, well, what should we do now?

334

And equally just

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enjoying it and doing whatever

bending over backwards because

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it's our thing.

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Jason English (Host): Do

you play each other's songs?

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do, you play your own

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Kelly Willis: we get up and So Melissa

plays stand up bass and Brennan is

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a badass guitar player.

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She plays all the lead parts and mandolin.

342

and

343

then I just play all the strummy,

swishy stuff that blends it

344

together.

345

Um, and we play each other's songs and

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sing harmonies on each song.

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And

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Jason English (Host):

There a name for the trio?

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Kelly Willis: yes, we just named it.

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We're, uh, Wonder

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Women of Country.

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I know!

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Like two weeks ago.

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Cause we did it, we just

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recorded a little EP and we're we're

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like, we have to have a

name, you guys, and Brennan,

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Brennan goes, uh, how about Wonder Woman

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of Country, and we're all like, yes.

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Jason English (Host): see the

I can see the merch right now.

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Kelly Willis: there's so

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many merch

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Jason English (Host):

there's so many options.

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Well, that's cool.

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So what you're having the most fun

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now, I guess

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which era

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shape shape shaped you will shape

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you the most like you that you're like

okay, well, I wouldn't be who I was today.

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I'm sure they all contributed to it.

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But

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like what's what stands

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out?

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Mm

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Kelly Willis: to it, but, um, I

think when I started performing

375

with Bruce, my ex husband, that, um,

376

all of a sudden the pressure

was divided in half.

377

So I was on stage, every aspect of

it was more fun because there was

378

somebody there who was going to catch

any moment where something might

379

Just go wrong or I,

you know, sometimes you

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just

381

there

382

blank space out, just stuff happens.

383

And knowing that.

384

There was someone else there that

was equally and someone else was

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going to talk or tell a story or

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thing I sing.

387

You know, just,

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I don't have to sing this next song.

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I get to do the harmony part, which

is so fun to sing the harmony part.

390

It just divided the

workload and I was able to

391

learn from him

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because he had a completely

different style of performing.

393

It was just a lot more fun.

394

I was always really nervous,

really worried about

395

being perfect when it was just

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Jason English (Host):

Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of

397

Kelly Willis: singing perfectly, all

the things and performing with him,

398

I was able to see how to be more,

to have a better time up there and,

399

it was just a whole, it was very

400

great learning experience about

just stepping inside somebody else's

401

thing and seeing a

completely different side

402

Perspective.

403

Jason English (Host): That's neat.

404

Are

405

you able to apply that to the

Wonder Women of Country now as well?

406

It probably still applies, right?

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Kelly Willis: Oh Yeah.

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It changed everything.

409

Even my solo stuff, just even without

other people, I just have more fun.

410

Somewhere along the way, I learned that

it didn't really matter how you sang.

411

Like, you know, the people, my favorite

people that are singing, I never

412

think about that they're singing.

413

If you think of Mick Jagger,

414

you're not thinking about

if he's hitting the notes.

415

beautifully.

416

He's just singing.

417

He's just telling

418

you this story.

419

He's just

420

embodying that song.

421

And so I stopped

422

worrying about that.

423

Jason English (Host): Yeah, they're

not holding up numbers, you know,

424

when you listen to it, right?

425

Yeah.

426

Yeah.

427

Kelly Willis: So Yeah.

428

that changed for me.

429

Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

430

So you mentioned the

anxiety, obviously as a

431

music fan, you make assumptions about

artists and on stage and recording

432

records.

433

It's just wild

434

to, to learn and, you know,

understand that artists struggle with.

435

I don't know if it's, you know, stage

fright or social phobia or all these

436

things, but it's a real thing, I guess.

437

Tell me more about that and has

it changed through the years?

438

Is it,

439

you know, yeah, tell

440

Kelly Willis: Well, I used to have

pretty severe social phobia, as a young

441

person.

442

And, if you talk to me, I might cry.

443

Like it was very difficult for

444

me, not around people that I knew that

were my friends and trusted people.

445

I

446

was, whatever my personality is, was,

would be full on, but, in most settings,

447

,

it was intense and

448

Jason English (Host): Is it one on

one, was it one on one conversations?

449

Or was it just, is the

stage just a different

450

environment and you were

451

able to kind of like work through

452

it?

453

Or was it also

454

that?

455

Kelly Willis: well, it was a

lot of one on one, a lot of.

456

All the just different little

exchange moments in life.

457

Like if you're at the grocery

store and you're in line and you

458

know in a minute you're going

to have to talk to the checkout

459

person.

460

Terrifying.

461

So it's those kinds of little things.

462

On the stage you could

sort of, disassociate.

463

You could be in this little world, right?

464

You're presenting something.

465

You're pretending in a way.

466

The guys used to tease me because for

years, I, anything I said on stage

467

would end with a, and it was really fun.

468

So, you know, you just,

you don't have much,

469

uh, personality up there.

470

Right.

471

But, I think it was

just immersion therapy.

472

Right.

473

I just took me about 10 years of.

474

can to

475

It's just doing everything wrong that

you could, that could possibly go wrong,

476

what eventually happened, you survive it.

477

And now you have that

478

skill.

479

Jason English (Host): Right

480

Kelly Willis: And then,

481

coping and then other stuff

happens where you start having fun.

482

There's so many little catchphrases

that happen on the road, but like one of

483

them is, well, another perfect

show, like you walk off the stage.

484

And you just, it just

doesn't matter that much.

485

you just have a good

486

time.

487

Jason English (Host): If you were,

488

20 years old today experiencing

the same challenges,

489

do you think the environment would be

490

different in the

491

access to help or resources

492

or,

493

You know, I guess the, the openness

around self awareness and self care,

494

Kelly Willis: I

495

Jason English (Host): would it be, would

496

it be, different?

497

Do you

498

think

499

Kelly Willis: think?

500

it would be

501

different.

502

I don't, nobody really

talked about this stuff

503

back then, and I think it's pretty common.

504

Jason English (Host): Do you think Yeah,

505

Kelly Willis: and I, I

506

mean,

507

definitely there's like drugs and stuff

people take for social phobia now, and

508

I was never, that was never an option.

509

Um,

510

but I do know

511

that it would have been,

512

more talked about.

513

Although, although there would be social

514

media and stuff that I

would have not been able to

515

Jason English (Host): oh my gosh, that

would be just, that'd be like a nightmare.

516

Right.

517

Yeah.

518

Yeah.

519

and you, you know, we

mentioned Taylor Swift too.

520

It's

521

like as successful as she

is, it's well documented.

522

She's

523

got so many insecurities and

524

she's aware of everything and

it completely affects her.

525

And you'd think, well,

it's, you know, like she's

526

at the point where like she

shouldn't care, but like it,

527

Kelly Willis: Right, but you grow up.

528

you

529

grow up, you're standing on a stage,

and people are looking at you, and

530

they're judging every little thing about

you, and you get used to that, and you

531

can kind of get a tough skin about it,

532

but it's hard to not

533

walk

534

around feeling concerned about whether

or not everything about you is perfect,

535

or you're presentable.

536

So that's gonna

537

mess with your head.

538

Although I think a lot about

539

Taylor Swift's life is

gonna mess with her head.

540

It's like Michael Jackson

541

Jason English (Host): a lot going on.

542

Kelly Willis: Elvis Presley.

543

Like,

544

I don't think that's good for you.

545

I don't

546

think it's good for you.

547

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

548

How important is curiosity to you.

549

Kelly Willis: Oh, really important.

550

I think you got to keep,

551

you got to be in learning mode.

552

You got to be open to seeing things.

553

You can't shut yourself down

and just go, okay, this is it.

554

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

555

Kelly Willis: This is what I'm

doing from now until the day I die.

556

Like, I don't

557

think there's a lot of joy in that.

558

Jason English (Host): Well goes back

to what you said about your summer of

559

yes.

560

Right.

561

I mean,

562

if curious, a non curious

563

person.

564

They wouldn't have a

565

summer of yes.

566

And you sort of illustrated

that point, right?

567

Kelly Willis: yeah.

568

I think

569

it's good for your

mental health and doesn't

570

mean you're gonna like be good at

571

everything

572

Jason English (Host): yeah.

573

Kelly Willis: like everything but

574

Jason English (Host): So at 55,

what are you curious about today?

575

Kelly Willis: Oh man, I'm just curious

that whenever anything comes my way,

576

I'm just trying to be more open to

577

it.

578

I mean, I, I did try to learn how to

play guitar better a few months ago.

579

(laughter)

580

It's like, cause all I do is strum.

581

I don't do any picking at all.

582

And I'm like, I've got

to learn how to do that.

583

This is my life.

584

This is my livelihood.

585

I need to know how to do that.

586

And I got in there and I tried.

587

I tried.

588

And I, I can play,

589

Wildwood Flower, but that's not gonna come

590

up.

591

Jason English (Host):

might as well be that.

592

Kelly Willis: I can't transfer that

into my own songs, but, you know,

593

I kind of got to see, I learned a

little bit there and I, I got my

594

friend Jackie room to take some guitar

595

lessons too.

596

Like we were talking about it and he's

like, yeah, I'm going to learn how to do.

597

And then eventually we were

598

like, screw that, you know, you

know, what's better being the singer.

599

Jason English (Host): about it.

600

Kelly Willis: Yeah.

601

Who wants to be the

602

guitar player?

603

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

604

Well, you know,

605

Kelly Willis: Come on.

606

It's our fantasy.

607

We,

608

we came up with

609

it.

610

Jason English (Host):

no, that's, that's great.

611

We talked about eras of

612

your career.

613

Are you, did you ever see

the Ken Burns documentary on

614

country music?

615

So

616

I've watched that like 10 times.

617

It's, I think it's like the most

amazing thing on television in

618

terms of documentaries, you know,

Cause it's, it's American history.

619

It's music history.

620

It's, it's a lot.

621

And what I love about it is the threads,

you know, the, the Carter family, Jimmy

622

Rodgers, Hank Williams, and the way

that the threads are all connected,

623

I guess, when you were thinking about

music in getting into industry and as you

624

developed your own career, what were the

threads of country music that inspired

625

you the most?

626

When I

627

Kelly Willis: I first started, I was, into

628

rockabilly.

629

There were people in

630

rockabilly like Wanda

631

Jason English (Host): big in

632

Austin.

633

Right.

634

Kelly Willis: but also

635

to Buddy Holly who kind of had

a foot in both worlds, right?

636

Like it's rockabilly, it's early

rock and roll, it's country.

637

It's a little of all that.

638

And then like Patsy Cline who

kind of, it was also in that

639

same plane, that same era.

640

To where I could go from

rockabilly to country.

641

And that's, felt like a,

there was more growth there.

642

Growth potential in that, in country

than there was in rockabilly.

643

So it was almost like I, I grew, I

evolved out of rockabilly into a country.

644

And then I was really, really

only interested in that kind of

645

Buck Owens era country music.

646

But living in Austin,

647

there

648

was all this Texas.

649

And I started to date this, Texan,

650

Bruce Robison, who his whole world was

70s country, which I had totally looked

651

down

652

Jason English (Host): don't know.

653

Oh, my gosh.

654

Kelly Willis: And um, so I got introduced

to all of that and Willie Nelson and, uh,

655

stuff.

656

Mm

657

Gary Stewart, Jerry Jeff

Walker, all that stuff.

658

So that was

659

a huge moment of growth as

well, like just being able to.

660

Jason English (Host): Right,

661

Kelly Willis: see the potential

and all this, this stuff that

662

I, you know, had come from

this other little world.

663

You know, rockabilly is a very critical.

664

We're very judgmental, which might be why

I was used to be so scared of interviews.

665

I thought I was being judged, but you had

to know all the facts and figures about

666

all the people and you had, you really

had to know what you're talking about.

667

And I don't ever really

know what I'm talking about.

668

So it was scary.

669

But, that was my growth.

670

And then much more kind of folky stuff

after that and learning how to, you

671

know, I heard this Lucinda Williams

record and, was it called Big Red Sun?

672

Was that the name of the record?

673

And I'd gotten an advanced copy

of it and this was the, like

674

90 something, and probably 90.

675

Um,

676

and it changed, I just, it

changed my mind about songwriting.

677

And I thought to myself, you know, you

678

can be,

679

you can do whatever you want.

680

You do not have to write like

681

these

682

little Nashville hit

683

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

684

The hooks.

685

Yeah.

686

Yeah.

687

Kelly Willis: you know, the world I was

in so young, I got in there, I was 20

688

and it was, they're always looking for

689

hits.

690

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

691

There's a formula.

692

Yep.

693

Kelly Willis: And so I

realized you can have

694

your own quirky little thing.

695

It doesn't have

696

to be anything except you.

697

And that freed me up to just start

698

playing around with songwriting a little

699

more.

700

Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

701

That's awesome.

702

So you mentioned the

wonder women of country.

703

If you look at 2024 and the next

few years, like that next era,

704

like what else do you see on the horizon?

705

Kelly Willis: Well, we have a EP.

706

That we recorded together.

707

We're going to put that out in March.

708

And then, keep playing

some of that together.

709

The sweet thing about that is we

can do that some of the time and

710

then we all go off to our own

worlds and do our own things.

711

So I I am also reissuing my What I Deserve

record, which came out in 98, I think.

712

It's 25 this year.

713

Unbelievably.

714

So we're going to have it on vinyl.

715

And maybe I'll put a little tour behind

716

that.

717

And then hopefully I

718

can make another solo

719

record.

720

I do have some new songs,

721

but I need to find a

creative partner to make that

722

happen.

723

Jason English (Host): Right.

724

Kelly Willis: So yeah, that's

kind of what's going on.

725

Jason English (Host): I know

streaming is a, is an issue or

726

a conversation for artists and things like

727

that, , it does give you a platform,

728

right.

729

For people like us

730

to just dial up anything.

731

Do you have a preference on the platform?

732

And if you use Spotify, could you

give the audience a indication

733

of what was in your 2023

734

wrapped top

735

five.

736

Kelly Willis: I do use Spotify

737

I was like my number one artist was me

738

Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

739

Kelly Willis: every time.

740

Every year I'm like, I can't share this.

741

Jason English (Host): That's

742

Kelly Willis: Damn it.

743

But it's because I always go, if I'm

going to play something I haven't played

744

in a while, I go there and I, that's

where I listened to it and practice it.

745

So I might listen to it 15 times

because I'm kind of practicing it

746

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

747

Kelly Willis: every year.

748

It's

749

like, Oh God, my favorite

song was one of my songs.

750

Like

751

it's, it's humiliating.

752

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh,

753

Kelly Willis: Um,

754

Jason English (Host): thing.

755

Kelly Willis: I know.

756

My Spotify is always going to be.

757

I

758

think maybe that, Big

Star Song 13 was my most

759

listened to song last year.

760

Which, so it's, it's, not

like I'm, it's not like

761

it's, I'm on the pulse of what's going on.

762

I

763

Jason English (Host): that's you,

764

Kelly Willis: I just go

pull up something that I,

765

that I'm feeling.

766

Jason English (Host): One

767

last question.

768

When you signed with MCA, there

was, I don't know how all the

769

finances work, but You signed to a label,

770

hmm.

771

How much

772

things happened.

773

There was a process.

774

How much has that

process changed to today?

775

You know, and

776

for me,

777

getting somebody to listen to a song

for three and a half minutes doesn't

778

sound like a Herculean task, but when

you consider all the, the news outlets,

779

the content that's online, social media,

the millions of tracks you can play on,

780

on, you know, Spotify or Pandora to get

someone to listen to a song for three

781

minutes, that's actually a big deal.

782

Right.

783

Kelly Willis: for sure.

784

Jason English (Host): Um, but like

in terms of the business aspect

785

of things, I mean, how much of it

786

has

787

changed?

788

Kelly Willis: Well, God, so much

of it's changed and but also my,

789

place in the world has changed.

790

Back when I was really starting,

I was a young, untested

791

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

792

Kelly Willis: Act that there was a lot of

potential, the unknown potential, right?

793

So that's like very attractive to

794

harder

795

the,

796

business part of the world.

797

And you do stuff for a while and you,

you reach a plateau and then you're

798

like, okay, well that's where I'm at.

799

And this is where I'm going to have to

negotiate my career from here on out.

800

And then it's harder to

get those business people.

801

They want to get

802

somebody that see possibly

making them a ton of money.

803

You never

804

have

805

trouble getting any creative people

806

involved, but the business side

of it's a whole different world.

807

Jason English (Host): That have happened

25 years ago as it's happened now?

808

Just you guys like, Hey, we want to do it.

809

Or would that have been a whole different

810

process?

811

Kelly Willis: I think it could have

812

happened.

813

Yeah, because that's, that's just been

a natural, organic, creative thing

814

that we just fell into place together.

815

. I don't really know how the music business

works now because I don't know how they're

816

making money and I know it takes money.

817

So, but you know, there's so much

818

less mystery involved too.

819

Um, back then, they'd

have to come see me.

820

We didn't give them tapes because we

didn't want them to pick us apart.

821

They couldn't look up numbers

to see anything about me.

822

They just had to see

me live and get a feel

823

and see if they, what

824

they thought,

825

Jason English (Host): and believe.

826

Kelly Willis: yeah,

827

and believe.

828

And I don't know how they do that now

because now they have so much other stuff

829

that they can pick apart about you and

830

take the magic out of

831

it, you know?

832

And crunch it down into numbers,

833

every little part of it.

834

I'm doing it, all myself these days.

835

I don't know

836

how

837

they, how

838

the business people are doing

839

it.

840

Jason English (Host): right?

841

Kelly Willis: It is, for sure.

842

I love it.

843

and it's fun.

844

Jason English (Host): Yeah, I'm excited.

845

You know, I'm I'm I'm almost

50 but to hear you say that,

846

you know, Y where you're

847

at

848

Kelly Willis: Yeah.

849

Jason English (Host): career-wise,

age-wise, you're having the most fun

850

ever.

851

I mean that,

852

Kelly Willis: get inspired

853

Jason English (Host): I,

get inspired by that and I

854

know people will,

855

people will also like, you

know, thank you for sort of

856

affirming that,

857

Kelly Willis: I hope so, because I wasn't

858

expecting that.

859

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

860

Yeah.

861

That's great.

862

Yeah.

863

Yeah.

864

Well, thank you.

865

Kelly Willis: Thank you.

866

Jason English (Host): you.

867

Yeah.

868

I really

869

appreciate it.

870

you.

871

Kelly Willis: Me too.

872

Jason English (Host): Um, will you play a

873

song

874

Kelly Willis: yeah, I could play one.

875

Jason English (Host): Alright.

876

Cool.