Artwork for podcast Our Hope Podcast
I'm a Good Person, Why Do I Need Jesus?
Episode 123rd May 2021 • Our Hope Podcast • Chosen People Ministries
00:00:00 00:41:53

Share Episode

Shownotes

During this all-new season of Our Hope Podcast 🎙, we are answering some of the toughest questions we have received at Chosen People Ministries, starting with, "I'm a good person, so why do I need Jesus?" Listen to this episode now!

Transcripts

Speaker:

Welcome to Our Hope,

Speaker:

a production of Chosen

Speaker:

People Ministries.

Speaker:

On this podcast you will hear

Speaker:

inspiring testimonies,

Speaker:

learn about Messianic

Speaker:

apologetics and discover

Speaker:

God's plan for Israel and you.

Speaker:

Wherever you're listening,

Speaker:

we hope you lean in,

Speaker:

listen closely and be blessed.

Speaker:

In today's world,

Speaker:

most people would

Speaker:

consider themselves

Speaker:

to be a good person.

Speaker:

Many of us try to live

Speaker:

a relatively moral life,

Speaker:

stay in our lanes

Speaker:

and avoid committing crimes.

Speaker:

In the secular mindset,

Speaker:

there is no need for salvation

Speaker:

because most of us think

Speaker:

we are not that bad.

Speaker:

But how do we define

Speaker:

what “goodness” is?

Speaker:

Is there a standard

Speaker:

for what is good,

Speaker:

or is “goodness”

Speaker:

simply relative?

Speaker:

These are questions

Speaker:

we all need to consider

Speaker:

throughout our lives,

Speaker:

and for those of us

Speaker:

who believe in Yeshua,

Speaker:

we know that nobody is perfect.

Speaker:

In this season of

Speaker:

Our Hope Podcast,

Speaker:

we are going to answer

Speaker:

some of the toughest questions

Speaker:

we have received at Chosen

Speaker:

People Ministries on faith

Speaker:

and believing in Jesus.

Speaker:

In this episode,

Speaker:

we'll address the question

Speaker:

we hear the most–

Speaker:

—“I’m a good person,

Speaker:

so why do I need Jesus?”

Speaker:

We're joined

Speaker:

today by two guests,

Speaker:

Robert Walter, who serves

Speaker:

on our staff in Brooklyn

Speaker:

and Derek Blumenthal,

Speaker:

who serves in Virginia.

Speaker:

I now introduce the host of Our

Speaker:

Hope Podcast, Abe Vazquez!

Speaker:

Robert, it

Speaker:

is great to see you again

Speaker:

virtually and Derek,

Speaker:

you're a first time

Speaker:

guest, welcome!

Speaker:

I'm so excited to have you

Speaker:

both on Our Hope.

Speaker:

This is the first episode

Speaker:

of our new season, season six,

Speaker:

and we're going to be tackling

Speaker:

a really cool theme,

Speaker:

answering some tough, tough

Speaker:

objections and questions

Speaker:

that we hear from

Speaker:

people throughout our ministry

Speaker:

and so thank you

Speaker:

for joining us.

Speaker:

Yeah, awesome,

Speaker:

thank you for having me.

Speaker:

Yeah, thank you Abe,

Speaker:

always a pleasure.

Speaker:

So everyone knows

Speaker:

it's not an episode of Our Hope

Speaker:

without talking about food,

Speaker:

and this is probably,

Speaker:

Derek, the most

Speaker:

important question

Speaker:

you'll ever answer

Speaker:

in your entire life.

Speaker:

So, what is your absolute

Speaker:

favorite food?

Derek:

Alright,

Derek:

so I've listened to

Derek:

most of the previous

Derek:

episodes of this podcast

Derek:

and I understand

Derek:

that you New York folks

Derek:

take your food choices

Derek:

very seriously, so

Derek:

I understand that.

Derek:

But I'm originally

Derek:

from Philadelphia

Derek:

and I grew up in

Derek:

Southern New Jersey,

Derek:

so our food pride is

Derek:

very high as well.

DerekI'd argue- (Abe::

Who

DerekI'd argue- (Abe::

invited this guy?)

Derek:

The best-

Derek:

the best pizza.

Derek:

The best pizza in

Derek:

the US can be

Derek:

found in New Jersey.

Abe:

Oh oh.

Derek:

It's

Derek:

OK if we disagree, it's

Derek:

OK, we can still be friends.

Robert:

What

Robert:

what part of Jersey

Robert:

are we talking about?

Derek:

South Jersey.

Abe:

Oh.

Robert:

Abe, what's going on.

Abe:

Listen, who

Abe:

vetted this guy?

Derek:

Besides the pizza,

Derek:

besides the pizza nothing,

Derek:

nothing can compare

Derek:

to a genuine

Derek:

Philly cheese steak

Derek:

or specifically

Derek:

from Pat's in South Philly.

Derek:

I don't think you can argue

Derek:

with me on that.

Abe:

Yeah,

Abe:

you're getting better,

Abe:

but you kind of just

Abe:

ruined all credibility,

Abe:

so I don't think I can

Abe:

listen to anything

Abe:

you say from this point,

Abe:

just kidding.

Abe:

Oh man, well Derek,

Abe:

I have another follow-up

Abe:

question for you.

Abe:

This is definitely

Abe:

more serious, but you are

Abe:

a Jewish believer

Abe:

in Jesus, correct?

Derek:

I am.

Abe:

So, I'm I'm curious

Abe:

and I

Abe:

think all of our listeners

Abe:

are very curious,

Abe:

how did you become

Abe:

a believer in Jesus?

Derek:

Yeah, sure.

Derek:

I'd love to share that.

Derek:

So I'm Jewish

Derek:

on my father's side.

Derek:

And like most suburban

Derek:

Jewish families

Derek:

where I grew up, I didn't have

Derek:

a particularly

Derek:

religious upbringing.

Derek:

I always had a belief in

Derek:

and even like a respect

Derek:

for God from the

Derek:

earliest age

Derek:

that I can remember,

Derek:

but I never really knew

Derek:

what to do with that.

Derek:

But when I was in high school,

Derek:

the friend group that I

Derek:

developed totally,

Derek:

unbeknownst to me,

Derek:

were all strong Christians,

Derek:

and they were involved

Derek:

in a youth ministry

Derek:

called Young Life,

Derek:

and I started going

Derek:

to their events with my friends

Derek:

and I loved it and it was there

Derek:

that I clearly heard the gospel

Derek:

for the first time.

Derek:

And when I was 16

Derek:

actually on my 16th birthday

Derek:

at a young life summer camp,

Derek:

I responded

Derek:

to the gospel message

Derek:

and gave my life to Jesus.

Derek:

So,

Derek:

then fast-forward a few years

Derek:

and I finally met

Derek:

another believer

Derek:

of Jewish heritage up

Derek:

until that time,

Derek:

I hadn't, I didn't know

Derek:

that there were any,

Derek:

and he introduced me

Derek:

not only to the fact

Derek:

that there are other

Derek:

Jewish believers in the world,

Derek:

but he introduced me to

Derek:

the concept

Derek:

of Messianic Judaism,

Derek:

which I had never

Derek:

even heard of, and the concept

Derek:

of Jewish

Derek:

evangelism in ministry

Derek:

and the importance for it.

Derek:

And I immediately immediately

Derek:

recognized that

Derek:

this was my calling,

Derek:

to reach my people

Derek:

with the gospel.

Derek:

And then fast-forward

Derek:

a bunch more years

Derek:

and here we are.

Abe:

That's awesome Derek.

Abe:

Thanks for sharing that.

Robert:

And Derek,

Robert:

who was that Jewish believer

Robert:

that you met the first time?

Derek:

OK, so his name is Ari

Derek:

Hauben and Ari is in fact now

Derek:

on staff

Derek:

with Chosen People Ministries.

Derek:

He wasn't at the time,

Derek:

he was

Derek:

working at the university

Derek:

I was going to and was speaking

Derek:

at the Christian

Derek:

Fellowship that I attended

Derek:

and so now full circle.

Derek:

We get to work together.

Robert:

Nice.

Abe:

That Is awesome,

Abe:

look at that.

Abe:

Well, I'm so glad

Abe:

again that you're with us.

Abe:

You know a lot of the questions

Abe:

that we're going to be talking

Abe:

about this season,

Abe:

they come from Jewish

Abe:

people, you know,

Abe:

and you probably had

Abe:

some of those questions

Abe:

yourself, Derek growing up.

Abe:

So the question we're

Abe:

going to be asking

Abe:

today is a question

Abe:

that I'm sure both of you

Abe:

have probably experienced

Abe:

or even ask yourself.

Abe:

It's this question of "I'm

Abe:

a good person and

Abe:

I don't need Jesus" so,

Abe:

so have you ever encountered

Abe:

someone who asks you that

Abe:

while you were presenting

Abe:

the Messiah to them

Abe:

or just in conversation?

Abe:

What was what was that

Abe:

like for?

Robert:

I mean, this is a

Robert:

an objection or a statement

Robert:

that you'll hear quite often,

Robert:

and I know

Robert:

I've definitely heard it

Robert:

quite a bit, especially

Robert:

during our annual

Robert:

summer mission trip

Robert:

in New York City

Robert:

called Shalom New York,

Robert:

which is a wonderful

Robert:

experience. But

Robert:

yeah, I think honestly, this

Robert:

is sort of like a byproduct

Robert:

of the culture

Robert:

and part of human nature.

Robert:

I mean, there's this

Robert:

defense mechanism

Robert:

that we as humans

Robert:

have when we are,

Robert:

when we might feel

Robert:

like we're attacked

Robert:

or being accused of

Robert:

being unworthy or bad.

Robert:

It's like no, no

Robert:

hold on hold on I'm

Robert:

I'm a good person,

Robert:

I'm not a murderer.

Robert:

I don't cheat, I don't steal,

Robert:

I don't.

Robert:

I'm not a thief, you know

Robert:

and then we sort of

Robert:

fall into the trap of comparing

Robert:

ourselves to each other.

Robert:

It's like, well, I'm not as bad

Robert:

as that guy, you know, I know,

Robert:

I know what this person does

Robert:

and I'm not like that

Robert:

I'm I'm a good person

Robert:

I don't try to harm anybody

Robert:

you know, yeah, so

Robert:

it's definitely

Robert:

just something that

Robert:

you'll hear from

Robert:

you know

Robert:

everybody, Jewish people,

Robert:

Gentile people.

Abe:

Yeah.

Derek:

Yeah,

Derek:

I don't know that anyone

Derek:

Jewish or not, has ever said

Derek:

those exact words to me

Derek:

in response to me

Derek:

discussing the gospel

Derek:

with them,

Derek:

but the sentiment has

Derek:

been shared plenty of times

Derek:

for sure, right?

Derek:

But more often than not,

Derek:

I think like what

Derek:

Robert was saying,

Derek:

I've seen the objection

Derek:

as more of a dismissal

Derek:

than a genuine claim.

Derek:

That doesn't

Derek:

make it easier to hear.

Derek:

You know what it means

Derek:

is that that person who says

Derek:

this really has no idea

Derek:

how a relationship

Derek:

with God

Derek:

works in the first place,

Derek:

so they obviously don't

Derek:

know Him, which is tragic.

Derek:

Because if they did,

Derek:

they'd know that being a son

Derek:

or daughter of God

Derek:

is not determined

Derek:

based on merit,

Derek:

but rather by faith in

Derek:

Yeshua the Messiah.

Derek:

And they would also have

Derek:

a very different understanding

Derek:

of what it means to be good.

Abe:

Yeah, so so let's

Abe:

talk about that, what-

Abe:

let's define what people mean

Abe:

when they say they are good

Abe:

and how do most people decide

Abe:

if they're even good?

Derek:

I think most people

Derek:

assume they're good

Derek:

quote unquote good in

Derek:

in a general moral sense,

Derek:

just like Robert was saying,

Derek:

I'm not a murderer,

Derek:

I don't steal.

Derek:

I don't whatever

Derek:

the you know, the big,

Derek:

the big hitters,

Derek:

or at least

Derek:

they find themselves to be

Derek:

better than most, meaning

Derek:

they judge themselves

Derek:

generally by the choices

Derek:

they've made,

Derek:

where their internal

Derek:

thoughts and feelings

Derek:

compared to what

Derek:

they observe in other people,

Derek:

and we all know it's easy

Derek:

to find examples

Derek:

of people who you feel

Derek:

objectively better than.

Abe:

So

Abe:

based on what you just said

Abe:

and when Robert

Abe:

mentioned earlier,

Abe:

so people define good

Abe:

when they're comparing

Abe:

themselves really.

Abe:

It's kind of like

Abe:

they're they're measuring

Abe:

themselves up against others,

Abe:

and that determines

Abe:

if they're good or not.

Derek:

In my experience,

Derek:

that's been more often

Derek:

than not how people

Derek:

define goodness.

Robert:

Yeah, and I would add

Robert:

you know if we are thinking

Robert:

about the Jewish people

Robert:

in general as well.

Robert:

There is this concept

Robert:

in more like religious

Robert:

Jewish circles,

Robert:

but it's also something

Robert:

that kind of is prevalent

Robert:

in just broader Jewish culture

Robert:

even among more secular

Robert:

Jewish people,

Robert:

this idea of goodness

Robert:

or even sin, and the idea

Robert:

that original sin

Robert:

is not the reality,

Robert:

that original original

Robert:

sin does not exist

Robert:

in a lot of in religious Jewish

Robert:

thought and theology.

Robert:

Instead, there's

Robert:

this concept, this idea

Robert:

that everybody has

Robert:

a good inclination

Robert:

and an evil inclination.

Robert:

The Yetzer Ha-Tov is the Hebrew

Robert:

for the good inclination.

Robert:

The Yetzer Ha-Ra

Robert:

is the evil inclination

Robert:

that we're born with these

Robert:

these dueling

Robert:

propensity's inside of us.

Robert:

These dueling wills

Robert:

and it's sort of our goal to

Robert:

do enough good to sort of

Robert:

squash the bad and

Robert:

create opportunities

Robert:

and make the choices

Robert:

to give in

Robert:

to the good inclination

Robert:

rather than the

Robert:

evil inclination.

Robert:

So,

Robert:

I think that's something that

Robert:

we definitely need

Robert:

to keep in mind, and

Robert:

especially when we're thinking

Robert:

about engaging

Robert:

with Jewish people

Robert:

on this particular topic.

Abe:

Yeah, and you bring up an

Abe:

interesting point about this.

Abe:

This battle between good

Abe:

and evil, and I know C.S.

Abe:

Lewis once argued

Abe:

that "universal morality"

Abe:

points to the existence of God

Abe:

and when we look at the laws

Abe:

in various countries

Abe:

throughout history,

Abe:

we see a lot of recurring

Abe:

commands, right?

Abe:

So, for example,

Abe:

you see laws against theft

Abe:

and murder, that's

Abe:

pretty much universal.

Abe:

Would you say that

Abe:

God gave each person

Abe:

the capability to know

Abe:

the difference between

Abe:

good and evil?

Derek:

Yeah, well,

Derek:

we know from the Bible that

Derek:

one of the results

Derek:

of the fall of man, you know,

Derek:

going back to

Derek:

the Garden of Eden is

Derek:

the knowledge of good and evil

Derek:

that's what God called the tree

Derek:

that Adam and Eve ate from.

Derek:

So it's interesting

Derek:

to think that

Derek:

they didn't really need

Derek:

to become conscious of good,

Derek:

they already knew what good was

Derek:

because they walked with God.

Derek:

All they knew was good.

Derek:

So eating from the tree

Derek:

made them aware of evil.

Derek:

And so yes, in a general sense,

Derek:

I think people have

Derek:

a basic internal barometer

Derek:

for recognizing moral

Derek:

good and evil.

Derek:

And of course, we know

Derek:

culture plays heavily

Derek:

on the more specific aspects

Derek:

of recognizing good and evil,

Derek:

and none of this

Derek:

really addresses man's ability

Derek:

to choose good over evil.

Derek:

We're just talking

Derek:

about recognizing it.

Derek:

Mankind being born into sin

Derek:

of course, is described

Derek:

in the Bible

Derek:

as being a type of slavery,

Derek:

from which a person

Derek:

can't free themselves.

Derek:

So the next step

Derek:

is not only recognizing

Derek:

what good and evil is,

Derek:

but talking about, do

Derek:

we even have a choice,

Derek:

or can we make a choice

Derek:

in one way or another?

Abe:

We're constantly told,

Abe:

you know, we're sinners.

Abe:

Right?

Abe:

We've fallen short.

Abe:

So are we good people?

Abe:

Are we good?

Robert:

That's an

Robert:

excellent question, Abe.

Robert:

Yeah, I mean who?

Robert:

Who can possibly win

Robert:

when you

Robert:

when it comes down to it,

Robert:

and you look at what God's

Robert:

standard of goodness is

Robert:

as defined in the scriptures

Robert:

from Genesis to Revelation.

Robert:

Does anybody- can

Robert:

anybody actually live up

Robert:

to that standard right?

Robert:

And you know, going back

Robert:

to this concept of

Robert:

the good inclination versus

Robert:

the evil inclination

Robert:

honestly this developed in,

Robert:

you know, Jewish

Robert:

religious thought,

Robert:

but when you really compare it

Robert:

to what

Robert:

the Scripture has to say,

Robert:

it doesn't hold much water.

Robert:

This idea

Robert:

of a good inclination.

Robert:

It's never mentioned

Robert:

in Scripture, those words

Robert:

are not used.

Robert:

Evil inclination is used,

Robert:

I mean, that's pretty clear.

Robert:

I mean the heart,

Robert:

the human heart,

Robert:

the heart of man and woman.

Robert:

It's described as being

Robert:

deceitfully wicked

Robert:

and like beyond comprehension.

Robert:

Nobody can actually know

Robert:

the heart, even even

Robert:

our good deeds is defined

Robert:

according to Isaiah as

Robert:

being like filthy rags.

Robert:

You know when you

Robert:

look at the Hebrew

Robert:

for that it's very descriptive,

Robert:

very, very, very

Robert:

you know nasty stuff,

Robert:

and that's how our goodness

Robert:

looks in God's eyes.

Robert:

So when you when you

Robert:

when we consider that

Robert:

how does the scripture

Robert:

talk about

Robert:

the goodness of mankind?

Robert:

It's like Derek mentioned

Robert:

since the fall

Robert:

since the Garden of Eden

Robert:

when when Adam and Eve

Robert:

willfully chose to disobey

Robert:

God there hasn't been much,

Robert:

you know, "goodness

Robert:

on display for man".

Abe:

I'm thinking about

Abe:

the verses Romans

Abe:

1:18 through 32.

Abe:

Does that chunk of Scripture

Abe:

hint at

Abe:

God

Abe:

giving people the capability

Abe:

to know the difference

Abe:

between good and evil?

Derek:

I'd say that

Derek:

that part in Romans 1

Derek:

is referring more to those

Derek:

who suppress the knowledge

Derek:

of the existence of God

Derek:

maybe more than the

Derek:

definition of good and evil.

Derek:

But I can definitely

Derek:

say by extension,

Derek:

insisting that God

Derek:

doesn't exist has

Derek:

all kinds of ramifications

Derek:

on one's

Derek:

moral compass, doesn't it?

Derek:

So if God didn't exist,

Derek:

then He can't define

Derek:

what is good and what isn't

Derek:

which means then, that

Derek:

there's no absolutes

Derek:

and of course we know

Derek:

that isn't true.

Derek:

So standing on that foundation,

Derek:

that faulty foundation

Derek:

leads us to all kinds

Derek:

of waywardness in regard

Derek:

to good and evil.

Robert:

Yeah.

Robert:

Yeah, I agree with Derek,

Robert:

I think that that

Robert:

section in Romans 1:18

Robert:

can really explain so much

Robert:

about the nature of of mankind,

Robert:

and it does.

Robert:

It all comes back to our

Robert:

understanding of God

Robert:

and our relationship with God

Robert:

or lack thereof,

Robert:

and the way that

Robert:

mankind, the way that humanity

Robert:

is described in Romans 1:18.

Robert:

I'll just, I'll read a few

Robert:

passages here so we can sort of

Robert:

get a taste of what

Robert:

Paul is writing.

Robert:

Romans 1:18,

Robert:

he writes this, "For

Robert:

the wrath of God

Robert:

is revealed from heaven

Robert:

against all ungodliness

Robert:

and unrighteousness of men,

Robert:

who suppress the truth

Robert:

in unrighteousness,

Robert:

because that which

Robert:

is known about God

Robert:

is evident within them.

Robert:

For God made it

Robert:

evident to them,

Robert:

for since

Robert:

the creation of the world

Robert:

His invisible attributes,

Robert:

His eternal power,

Robert:

and divine nature

Robert:

have been clearly seen,

Robert:

being understood

Robert:

through what has been made

Robert:

so that they are

Robert:

without excuse."

Robert:

So the way that Paul is,

Robert:

you know, sort

Robert:

of beginning this argument,

Robert:

he's letting us know that

Robert:

everyone, every human being

Robert:

who has ever lived,

Robert:

has some kind of

Robert:

internal recognition

Robert:

or understanding

Robert:

that God exists because

Robert:

God has communicated

Robert:

His identity, His,

Robert:

His deity, His nature.

Robert:

And you know part of

Robert:

God's nature is God's

Robert:

goodness and God's

Robert:

righteousness and and what

Robert:

the standard of goodness

Robert:

and righteousness is, that

Robert:

this has been made clear to us

Robert:

simply through creation

Robert:

through the created

Robert:

order of things.

Robert:

So simply in creation,

Robert:

we understand.

Robert:

And we recognize,

Robert:

or we're supposed

Robert:

to understand and recognize,

Robert:

that we have a great need, that

Robert:

we fall short of

Robert:

something, that we mess

Robert:

up, that we do the

Robert:

wrong thing in our lives

Robert:

and you know this is

Robert:

this is again

Robert:

this is human nature.

Robert:

You know if you were to talk to

Robert:

a parent of children,

Robert:

once you start having kids,

Robert:

you understand pretty quickly

Robert:

the fallenness of human

Robert:

nature and mankind.

Robert:

You know that the famous quip,

Robert:

you know you don't

Robert:

have to teach a child

Robert:

how to lie right?

Robert:

But we were just born with this

Robert:

propensity to deceive, to lie,

Robert:

to do the wrong thing,

Robert:

to make those wrong choices

Robert:

and you know what

Robert:

Paul is laying out here

Robert:

is that this is made clear

Robert:

through through creation,

Robert:

you know, and he goes on.

Robert:

He talks about

Robert:

the nature of man

Robert:

now, so Romans 1:24,

Robert:

"Therefore, God gave them over

Robert:

in the lusts of their

Robert:

hearts to impurity,

Robert:

so that their bodies

Robert:

would be dishonored among them,

Robert:

for they exchanged

Robert:

the truth of God

Robert:

for a lie, and worshipped

Robert:

and served the creature

Robert:

rather than the Creator

Robert:

who is blessed forever, Amen."

Robert:

We'll be right back.

Robert:

Shalom, my name is Nicole Vacca

Robert:

and I'm one of the co-producers

Robert:

of Our Hope podcast.

Robert:

We created Our

Robert:

Hope to be a window

Robert:

into the Messianic community,

Robert:

a place where we can discuss

Robert:

Israel and the Bible

Robert:

and a resource for people

Robert:

who want to share their faith

Robert:

more effectively

Robert:

and compassionately

Robert:

with the Jewish community.

Robert:

If you are interested

Robert:

in supporting what we do,

Robert:

you can donate to Chosen People

Robert:

Ministries

Robert:

at chosenpeople.com/donate.

Robert:

You could also support us

Robert:

by sharing this podcast

Robert:

on social media with

Robert:

your friends and family

Robert:

or by writing a review

Robert:

on Apple Podcasts.

Robert:

We are so grateful

Robert:

for your support

Robert:

and we hope you enjoy

Robert:

the rest of this episode.

Abe:

We've been really focused

Abe:

on the good part

Abe:

of that question, right?

Abe:

I'm a good person,

Abe:

why do I need Jesus?

Abe:

So before we tap

Abe:

a little bit into the

Abe:

why we need Jesus,

Abe:

I think we need to

Abe:

address something,

Abe:

so to a lot of people,

Abe:

the idea

Abe:

of God simply forgiving

Abe:

us, let's be honest,

Abe:

it sounds really easy.

Abe:

It's like oh He can

Abe:

just forgive me just like that.

Abe:

I think there's a lot

Abe:

more to that, but,

Abe:

some would argue that

Abe:

God's grace because of Yeshua's

Abe:

sacrifice leaves the door open

Abe:

for people to continue

Abe:

doing the wrong thing

Abe:

to continue doing

Abe:

what they're doing,

Abe:

taking advantage of

Abe:

God's grace.

Abe:

How how can we respond

Abe:

to this argument?

Derek:

Yeah,

Derek:

so the Bible addresses

Derek:

this really specifically.

Derek:

Paul in Romans 6

Derek:

says this,

Derek:

he says, "What

Derek:

shall we say then?

Derek:

Are we to continue in sin,

Derek:

so that grace may increase?"

Derek:

He's making the

Derek:

argument saying,

Derek:

since we understand grace,

Derek:

should we just continue to sin

Derek:

so that we can keep

Derek:

seeing grace in our lives,

Derek:

and he's setting it up

Derek:

as a ridiculous argument.

Derek:

He says far from it.

Derek:

"How shall we who died to sin

Derek:

still live in it?"

Derek:

So in other words,

Derek:

when one comes to

Derek:

faith in Yeshua,

Derek:

we experience

Derek:

a total transformation

Derek:

where we're not just forgiven

Derek:

for what we've done or what

Derek:

we haven't done in the past

Derek:

or actually made

Derek:

into new people,

Derek:

no longer slaves to sin,

Derek:

but rather walking

Derek:

in righteousness.

Derek:

So it's almost a moot point.

Derek:

Why would- we can't even ask

Derek:

that about ourselves

Derek:

because if we truly know

Derek:

Yesgya, we've been made new,

Derek:

we wouldn't,

Derek:

we don't any longer

Derek:

have the desire

Derek:

to want to run after sin.

Derek:

It's so much more than

Derek:

just being simply forgiven.

Derek:

As you said, it's a it's

Derek:

a death to the old self.

Derek:

It's a new birth

Derek:

into a new life in

Derek:

the image of God that we were

Derek:

always designed to have.

Derek:

So everything about us

Derek:

changes from that point.

Robert:

Right,

Robert:

which is something

Robert:

I think we need to really

Robert:

be careful of not

Robert:

downplaying the magnitude

Robert:

of the goodness of

Robert:

God on display in

Robert:

and through the death of

Robert:

His Son, Jesus on the cross.

Robert:

I mean it, it's it's amazing.

Robert:

It's phenomenal because

Robert:

like Derek said, before that,

Robert:

you know, became reality

Robert:

before we came to believe

Robert:

and were transformed

Robert:

that we're made

Robert:

into new creations

Robert:

and were born again.

Robert:

You know, before that happens

Robert:

the way that we're described

Robert:

is again, like Paul uses

Robert:

the very strong language

Robert:

in Romans 1, but

Robert:

we also see Yeshua

Robert:

use language in John 3

Robert:

and Paul use language

Robert:

in Ephesians 1,

Robert:

you know we are,

Robert:

we were dead in our trespasses.

Robert:

We were slaves to sin,

Robert:

our status was different.

Robert:

Before we were different,

Robert:

we were dead in our trespasses.

Robert:

Slaves to sin and and you know,

Robert:

this is the language

Robert:

that Jesus uses.

Robert:

And John Chapter 3, we were

Robert:

condemned already.

Robert:

We were condemned already,

Robert:

you know,

Robert:

in that famous passage

Robert:

in that conversation

Robert:

between Yeshua, Jesus,

Robert:

and Nicodemus in John 3,

Robert:

where you know,

Robert:

Yeshua says for "God

Robert:

so loved the world

Robert:

that He gave His

Robert:

only begotten Son

Robert:

so that whosoever

Robert:

believes in Him

Robert:

shall not perish

Robert:

but have eternal life."

Robert:

You keep reading that

Robert:

passage in John 3:17,

Robert:

and you see how

Robert:

Yeshua refers to

Robert:

the condition of man

Robert:

and how we are changed

Robert:

and transformed through

Robert:

this encounter with Yeshua.

Robert:

He says this in John 3:17, "For

Robert:

God did not send

Robert:

the Son into the world

Robert:

to judge the world,

Robert:

but that the world

Robert:

might be saved through Him.

Robert:

He who believes in

Robert:

Him is not judged.

Robert:

He who does not believe

Robert:

has been judged already,

Robert:

because He has not believed

Robert:

in the name of the only

Robert:

begotten Son of God",

Robert:

that was our status

Robert:

before Yeshua.

Robert:

We were condemned already,

Robert:

we were judged already,

Robert:

we were dead in our trespasses.

Robert:

We had been given over

Robert:

to the lusts of the

Robert:

hearts of impurity.

Robert:

You know we were,

Robert:

we were different,

Robert:

but that encounter

Robert:

with the true goodness of God

Robert:

that is on display

Robert:

through the death,

Robert:

burial, resurrection

Robert:

of the Messiah, Jesus,

Robert:

changes us, transforms us.

Abe:

How do we explain,

Abe:

you were just

Abe:

talking a little bit

Abe:

about how Jesus responded

Abe:

to some of this,

Abe:

so how do we explain

Abe:

Yeshua's role in

Abe:

reconciling our sin

Abe:

and brokenness to someone,

Abe:

who doesn't think they need

Abe:

Jesus or religion or anything?

Derek:

So I'd say

Derek:

there's little to gain

Derek:

in arguing with someone

Derek:

who doesn't want

Derek:

to take an honest

Derek:

look at themselves,

Derek:

but for anyone willing

Derek:

we can share about the intense

Derek:

love that the Father has.

Abe:

Yeah.

Derek:

Because it is

Derek:

that it is intense.

Derek:

He sees and knows

Derek:

every thought and every feeling

Derek:

and it matters to Him

Derek:

immensely.

Derek:

We are valuable to Him

Derek:

in ways that we may

Derek:

not even be able to understand.

Derek:

We definitely can't understand.

Derek:

He understands our brokenness.

Derek:

He understands our sin,

Derek:

and He wants so badly

Derek:

to relieve us of it

Derek:

and that's why

Derek:

He promised Messiah

Derek:

in the first place

Derek:

to reconcile us to God

Derek:

and make us sons and daughters.

Derek:

Totally new.

Derek:

Totally clean.

Derek:

And so then,

Derek:

thinking that you don't need

Derek:

Yeshua or religion,

Derek:

it doesn't change

Derek:

the universal truth

Derek:

you know, we do need it,

Derek:

whether you think

Derek:

so or not, we do.

Derek:

All of us and He can't

Derek:

wait for us to run to Him.

Derek:

That's His anticipation.

Derek:

So as believers then,

Derek:

for anyone and everyone

Derek:

who don't yet see,

Derek:

we have an opportunity and

Derek:

an obligation to pray

Derek:

that God would open their eyes.

Robert:

Yes, and I would add

Robert:

that in addition

Robert:

to praying for,

Robert:

I mean obviously

Robert:

we want to engage

Robert:

with an discuss with

Robert:

you know

Robert:

people who need the Messiah,

Robert:

who need this life-changing,

Robert:

this eternity

Robert:

changing encounter

Robert:

with the risen Messiah,

Robert:

Yeshua and

Robert:

one thing

Robert:

that I found to be

Robert:

really important

Robert:

when speaking with someone

Robert:

who may have this objection,

Robert:

you know, or

Robert:

who may be seeking,

Robert:

is the tone that we have,

Robert:

you know, we want to have

Robert:

that same kind of love

Robert:

and commitment and passion

Robert:

that Yeshua has.

Robert:

You know, obviously,

Robert:

we're not Yeshua, but

Robert:

you know the Spirit of

Robert:

the living God dwells

Robert:

inside of us.

Robert:

He has changed us.

Robert:

He has transformed us.

Robert:

He's given us gifts

Robert:

and we ought to have

Robert:

the same sort of burden

Robert:

to proclaim the gospel

Robert:

and to do it in a way

Robert:

with love with truth

Robert:

and with sincerity.

Robert:

And again,

Robert:

I think one of the

Robert:

best examples that we have for

Robert:

this in the New Testament

Robert:

is Paul and I'm indebted to Dr.

Robert:

Darrell Bock.

Robert:

He gave a A Chapel message

Robert:

once at the Feinberg Center

Robert:

that just really blew my mind.

Robert:

You know, I mean,

Robert:

we've been looking

Robert:

at Romans 1 here.

Robert:

Well, he used Romans 1

Robert:

as sort of the basis

Robert:

and he said

Robert:

this is the understanding

Robert:

that Paul had of the people

Robert:

that he was trying to reach.

Robert:

This is, this is how

Robert:

he described them

Robert:

given over

Robert:

to the lusts of their hearts

Robert:

and then down in Romans

Robert:

1, verses 28 to 29,

Robert:

Paul's describing the people

Robert:

that he's trying

Robert:

to reach like this, "And

Robert:

just as they did

Robert:

not see fit to acknowledge

Robert:

God any longer, God

Robert:

gave them over

Robert:

to a depraved mind

Robert:

to do those things

Robert:

which are not proper,

Robert:

being filled with

Robert:

all unrighteousness,

Robert:

wickedness, greed,

Robert:

evil, full of envy,

Robert:

murder, strife, deceit,

Robert:

malice, their

Robert:

gossips, slanderers,

Robert:

haters of God, insolent,

Robert:

arrogant, boastful

Robert:

inventors of evil,

Robert:

disobedient to parents,

Robert:

without understanding,

Robert:

untrustworthy,

Robert:

fun-loving, unmerciful

Robert:

and although they know

Robert:

the Ordinance of God

Robert:

that those who practice

Robert:

such things

Robert:

are worthy of death,

Robert:

they not only do the same

Robert:

but also give hearty approval

Robert:

to those who practice them."

Robert:

So this is

Robert:

how Paul is describing

Robert:

the people that he's

Robert:

you know trying to reach

Robert:

and minister to the people

Robert:

who need this message

Robert:

of the goodness of God.

Robert:

But when you follow Paul

Robert:

throughout the Book of Acts,

Robert:

especially on his

Robert:

journeys as he's going into

Robert:

a new town or a new city

Robert:

as he's engaging

Robert:

with and encountering

Robert:

these people that he describes

Robert:

in Romans 1, how does he go

Robert:

about sharing the gospel?

Robert:

How does he go about

Robert:

sharing this good news?

Robert:

You know, good news of Yeshua.

Robert:

He doesn't come like

Robert:

with guns blazing,

Robert:

pointing out, hey,

Robert:

you're you're filled

Robert:

with malice,

Robert:

you're an adulterer at heart.

Robert:

You know you're-

Robert:

You know, he doesn't list off

Robert:

everything that he just

Robert:

says in Romans 1.

Robert:

Instead, what does he do?

Robert:

Well,

Robert:

the prime example is in Acts

Robert:

17 with Mars Hill

Robert:

when he was in Athens

Robert:

and he encounters

Robert:

idolators, you know,

Robert:

and he's walking around,

Robert:

you know, Acts 17:22.

Robert:

So Paul stood in the midst

Robert:

of the Areopagus

Robert:

and said, "Men of Athens,

Robert:

I observed

Robert:

that you were very religious

Robert:

in all respects.

Robert:

For while I was passing through

Robert:

and examining the objects

Robert:

of your worship,

Robert:

I also found an altar

Robert:

with this inscription

Robert:

to an unknown God.

Robert:

Therefore, what you

Robert:

worship in ignorance this

Robert:

I proclaim to you,

Robert:

the God who made the world

Robert:

in all things in it.

Robert:

Since He is Lord of

Robert:

Heaven and Earth, does not

Robert:

dwell in temples

Robert:

made with hands, nor is

Robert:

He served by human hands,

Robert:

as though He needed anything,

Robert:

since He himself

Robert:

gives to all people

Robert:

life and breath and all things.

Robert:

And He made from one man

Robert:

every nation of mankind

Robert:

to live on all the

Robert:

face of the earth, having

Robert:

determined their

Robert:

appointed times and the

Robert:

boundaries of their habitation,

Robert:

that they would seek God,

Robert:

if perhaps they might grope

Robert:

for Him and find Him,

Robert:

though He is not far

Robert:

from each one of us.

Robert:

For in Him we live

Robert:

and move and exist

Robert:

as even some of your

Robert:

own poets have said.

Robert:

For we are also His children.

Robert:

Being then the children of God,

Robert:

we ought not to think

Robert:

that the Divine Nature

Robert:

is like gold or silver

Robert:

or stone, an image

Robert:

formed by the art

Robert:

and thought of man.

Robert:

Therefore, having overlooked

Robert:

the times of ignorance,

Robert:

God is now declaring to men

Robert:

that all people everywhere

Robert:

should repent,

Robert:

because He has fixed a day

Robert:

in which

Robert:

he will judge the world

Robert:

in righteousness

Robert:

through a Man whom

Robert:

He has appointed,

Robert:

having furnished proof

Robert:

to all men, by raising

Robert:

Him from the dead."

Robert:

So the way Paul went about it

Robert:

was he looked for

Robert:

those connection points

Robert:

in the men of Athens,

Robert:

in their culture.

Robert:

He looked for those

Robert:

redemptive analogies

Robert:

and he did it with a tone with

Robert:

an attitude

Robert:

that wasn't coming in

Robert:

heaping condemnation.

Robert:

You know, he he knew

Robert:

what the reality was

Robert:

for the hearts of

Robert:

these people that

Robert:

he was talking to.

Robert:

I mean he lays it out

Robert:

for us in Romans

Robert:

1, but here in Acts 17 he's

Robert:

seeking to bridge the divide,

Robert:

doing it with love

Robert:

and with

Robert:

with the proper attitude,

Robert:

and I think that

Robert:

for me is always been

Robert:

just such an important lesson

Robert:

in evangelism.

Derek:

Yeah, it reminds me,

Derek:

speaking of tone and approach.

Derek:

The fact that we

Derek:

see throughout the Gospels

Derek:

when Yeshua encountered people,

Derek:

any and all people,

Derek:

He encountered them with

Derek:

overwhelming compassion.

Derek:

Yeah, it says in

Derek:

Mark 6 and elsewhere

Derek:

that he saw a large crowd

Derek:

and he felt compassion for them

Derek:

because they were like sheep

Derek:

without a shepherd.

Derek:

And then because

Derek:

of that compassion

Derek:

He determined to

Derek:

save us from our sinful state.

Derek:

So if we are ambassadors

Derek:

of Messiah in the world

Derek:

then we should and naturally

Derek:

can as we walk with the Lord,

Derek:

have that same compassion

Derek:

for people

Derek:

and it should show in the way

Derek:

that we communicate the

Derek:

good news of the gospel.

Derek:

Yeah, just to add that

Derek:

the Greek word that's used

Derek:

there for compassion in Mark

Derek:

6 and in Matthew 9, which is

Derek:

Matthew's parallel passage.

Derek:

The Greek word is "splagchnon".

Derek:

Just just rolls off

Derek:

the tongue, right?

Derek:

Splagchnon.

Derek:

And what it what it is,

Derek:

it sounds like a

Derek:

strange, very picturesque

Derek:

kind of word because it's like

Derek:

the Yiddish would be "kishkes",

Derek:

you know, deep in your gut.

Derek:

So what Yeshua felt

Derek:

was this compassion that He

Derek:

actually felt in His gut.

Derek:

It, like it turned His stomach

Derek:

to see His people

Derek:

like sheep without a

Derek:

shepherd and mistreated

Derek:

and just left for dead

Derek:

is you know how it's

Derek:

the wording is described there.

Derek:

So so yeah.

Derek:

I mean you know God

Derek:

give us that

Derek:

kind of splagchnon, you know

Derek:

God give us that kind

Derek:

of compassion for people.

Abe:

So I have a last

Abe:

question for you both.

Abe:

We've heard a lot

Abe:

about the theological

Abe:

reasons and

Abe:

for needing Jesus and

Abe:

we define good and we

Abe:

really tackled this question.

Abe:

But ultimately,

Abe:

for each of you personally

Abe:

why did each of you

Abe:

decide that you needed Jesus?

Derek:

Yeah, for me

Derek:

it took me comparing

Derek:

the Holiness

Derek:

and the perfection of God

Derek:

that I came to understand

Derek:

through the Bible

Derek:

with an honest look at myself

Derek:

and the comparison of the two.

Derek:

My thoughts, my motives,

Derek:

my decisions, all of it.

Derek:

And you know, I wasn't

Derek:

some wild rebel by any stretch.

Derek:

I don't have that

Derek:

kind of testimony.

Derek:

But I understood that

Derek:

like everyone, I fell

Derek:

far short of perfection.

Derek:

And that didn't make me upset,

Derek:

at least not for long

Derek:

because I was confronted

Derek:

with the fact that God loved me

Derek:

so much and gave Himself for me

Derek:

in the person

Derek:

of Yeshua the Messiah.

Derek:

He wanted me to be His son.

Derek:

He wanted to walk

Derek:

with me through life.

Derek:

He wanted to spend eternity

Derek:

with me personally.

Derek:

He wanted to fill me

Derek:

with His Spirit,

Derek:

and He couldn't wait

Derek:

for me to run to Him.

Derek:

It wasn't like it was,

Derek:

I realized it wasn't

Derek:

like He was put out

Derek:

and just felt obligated.

Derek:

He wanted that desperately,

Derek:

deeply wanted that from me.

Derek:

And He showed me that and I was

Derek:

I was undone, I was undone.

Derek:

I gave Him my life

Derek:

and the rest is history.

Derek:

Robert?

Robert:

Yeah, so for me

Robert:

I was 19 years old.

Robert:

I was heavily involved in drugs

Robert:

and just a very,

Robert:

very dark lifestyle

Robert:

and over the course

Robert:

of about three months,

Robert:

the Lord began to convict me

Robert:

about the way I was living, and

Robert:

I remember driving down

Robert:

the road in the car

Robert:

with some friends

Robert:

and even telling them

Robert:

how convicted I felt

Robert:

and they said why,

Robert:

and I said because

Robert:

I know the Bible says something

Robert:

about not doing this

Robert:

and they all laughed at me and

Robert:

just kind of brushed it off

Robert:

and it came to a head

Robert:

one evening

Robert:

when I was just

Robert:

confronted again

Robert:

like Derek said, just with

Robert:

an honest look at myself

Robert:

and I knew I knew

Robert:

with beyond a shadow of a doubt

Robert:

that I was steeped in

Robert:

sin and wickedness.

Robert:

I mean, it was clear to me,

Robert:

I had no delusions

Robert:

that I was good and

Robert:

for the first time in

Robert:

my life from that place, from

Robert:

that really just

Robert:

like bottomed out

Robert:

kind of place, I spoke to God.

Robert:

I prayed really for

Robert:

like the first time in my life

Robert:

and I said, God,

Robert:

if you're real, show me

Robert:

and within moments

Robert:

of praying that prayer

Robert:

He answered

Robert:

and I was overwhelmed

Robert:

and flooded by the

Robert:

Holy Spirit of God

Robert:

and just

Robert:

transformed, transformed

Robert:

totally completely.

Robert:

I knew God's

Robert:

love in that moment

Robert:

and I just had an

Robert:

undeniable recognition

Robert:

that Jesus answered me.

Robert:

And everything changed,

Robert:

everything in my life changed

Robert:

from that moment forward.

Abe:

And we don't

Abe:

stop needing Him,

Abe:

need Him every single day,

Abe:

every single moment

Abe:

of every hour.

Abe:

I'm so grateful to you

Abe:

both for being here.

Abe:

I'm so grateful

Abe:

for your testimony

Abe:

that has ultimately

Abe:

brought you here

Abe:

to this episode.

Abe:

It is just so encouraging

Abe:

to hear from you both.

Abe:

Derek, thank you so much

Abe:

for this being your first time,

Abe:

I hope it's not the last time

Abe:

and it was great

Abe:

to hear your thoughts and I'm

Abe:

excited for

Abe:

the rest of this

Abe:

season to really dive

Abe:

into more of these questions

Abe:

so thank you.

Abe:

“But now apart from the Law

Abe:

the righteousness of God

Abe:

has been manifested,

Abe:

being witnessed by the Law

Abe:

and the Prophets,

Abe:

even the righteousness

Abe:

of God through faith in Yeshua

Abe:

Messiah for all those

Abe:

who believe; for

Abe:

there is no distinction;

Abe:

for all have sinned

Abe:

and fall short

Abe:

of the glory of God,

Abe:

being justified as

Abe:

a gift by His grace

Abe:

through the redemption

Abe:

which is in Messiah Yeshua.”

Abe:

Romans 3, verses 21 through 24

Abe:

Not one of us can ever be

Abe:

good enough to meet God’s

Abe:

standard of goodness—but

Abe:

the good news is that

Abe:

God sent His Son

Abe:

to cover our offenses

Abe:

with His sacrifice.

Abe:

We will never be perfect,

Abe:

but Yeshua lived a perfect,

Abe:

blameless life—and though

Abe:

we fail, by God’s grace,

Abe:

because of Yeshua,

Abe:

we can get back up

Abe:

and continue following Him.

Abe:

We hope you

Abe:

enjoyed today’s episode.

Abe:

Next week,

Abe:

we are going to answer

Abe:

another important question

Abe:

that we often hear—“Is

Abe:

believing in Jesus idolatry?”

Abe:

Tune in next week to find out

Abe:

how God can become a man,

Abe:

and the relationship

Abe:

between God and Yeshua.

Abe:

Thank you for listening

Abe:

to this week's

Abe:

episode of Our Hope,

Abe:

featuring chosen

Abe:

People, Ministries,

Abe:

staff members, Robert Walter

Abe:

and Derek Blumenthal.

Abe:

This episode was

Abe:

produced by Nicole Vacca

Abe:

and edited by Grace Swee.

Abe:

This episode is also

Abe:

brought to you by Dr.

Abe:

Mitch Glaser, Brian Crawford,

Abe:

Kieran Bautista,

Abe:

and Neal Surasky.

Abe:

I'm Abe Vazquez

Abe:

until next time.

Abe:

Thanks for

Abe:

listening to Our Hope.

Abe:

If you like our show

Abe:

and want to know more,

Abe:

check out ourhopepodcast.com

Abe:

or chosenpeople.com.

Abe:

You can also

Abe:

support our podcast

Abe:

by giving today

Abe:

at ourhopepodcast.com/support.

Links