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Wise Effort, Wanting More, and Letting Go with Diana Hill and Carl Erik Fisher
Episode 170 • 22nd September 2025 • The Wise Effort Show • Dr. Diana Hill
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What is Wise Effort? In this episode, Dr. Diana Hill is interviewed by Dr. Carl Erik Fisher about her new book Wise Effort: How to Focus Your Genius Energy on What Matters Most. They explore how wise effort can help navigate life’s demands. Discover the balance between striving and letting go, and learn actionable methods to apply wise effort in your daily life across various domains, including health, relationships, and work. 

In This Episode, We Explore:

  • Diana’s personal journey with addiction
  • What is Wise Effort
  • Understanding Genius and Energy Flow
  • Identifying and Channeling Your Genius

Suggested Next Episode:

Episode 158: Urges, Addictions, And Choice With Carl Erik Fisher

Related Resources

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Diana's Events

Connecting With Diana

Thanks to the team, Craig and Ashley Hiatt, and Benjamin Gould of Bell & Branch for your beautiful music.

Mentioned in this episode:

Workshop: The Wise Effort Method at Godmothers

In-Person Workshop: The Wise Effort Method at Godmothers in Summerland, CA. Join clinical psychologist, leadership coach, and creator of the Wise Effort method, Diana Hill, Ph.D., for an inspiring immersion into what it means to put your genius energy where it belongs—on the things that give your life meaning. October 19 @ 11:00 am – 1:30 pm PDT

Wise Effort Method Workshop at Godmothers

Transcripts

Diana Hill:

What is Wise Effort?

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That's what we're gonna

explore today with me, Dr.

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Diana Hill and my interviewer, Dr.

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Carl Fisher on the Wise Effort Show.

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Welcome back.

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I'm Dr.

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Diana Hill, and it's a big

week this week for two reasons.

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First, most importantly, it is dessert

week on the Great British Baking Show.

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And if you know anything about me from

Instagram, I am obsessed with cakes.

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I will spend weeks on end making cakes,

and my son's birthday is coming up

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in October, so I'm already thinking

ahead what kind of cake I'm gonna make.

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I think it might be a football cake.

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Anyways, so big week for us here in

dessert week in our household, and two.

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Wise effort is out this week.

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My book, my baby, my book Baby, it's

being launched and in part of that

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launch is also doing my best to engage

in wise effort while it is launching.

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I am not perfect with this, but I am

regrouping, and the way in which I'm

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regrouping is by not overextending myself.

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When you have a big thing that comes

into the world, it's really important

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for you to be present for that big thing.

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And the people who supported you in making

it happen and really absorbing, taking in,

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savoring the good of what you've created.

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So in order to do that, I do not

have a new episode out this week.

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But I have a favorite episode.

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It's actually an interview that you

may not have heard because it wasn't

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even on my podcast in the first place.

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It's from Flourishing After

Addiction with Carl Eric Fisher.

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He interviewed me and he snuck me in

as an interview about addiction because

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I have, uh, some addictive tendencies

you will find out in this episode,

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I share about my history, my

history of disordered eating,

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the history of wise effort.

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There's this conversation about what's

happening right now in psychology and

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psychiatry and ai, I think is fascinating.

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Carl is a modern voice in

the field of psychiatry.

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He teaches at Columbia.

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He writes widely about

addiction and mental health.

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He's the author of The Urge,

Our History of Addiction.

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I interviewed him on the show and now

you get to hear his interview of me

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as I'm out there doing a ton of these.

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This one, hands down, my favorite,

because he's such a good guy.

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You'll hear it.

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Okay.

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Enjoy this conversation about wise

effort, wanting more, and letting go.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Today I am very

happy to be speaking with Dr.

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Diana Hill.

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I've wanted to have

Diana on for a long time.

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Diana is a true expert at acceptance

and commitment therapy, and additionally

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does a lot of international training, is

extremely well positioned to explain and

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translate some of those core concepts.

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A psychologist herself, she's

a really vital, energetic,

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thoughtful, high integrity person.

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Who translates the most current

psychological research and merges it

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with contemplative practices as a yoga

practitioner herself, she's a host of

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a podcast called Wise Effort, which I

was on recently, author of several books

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including really Nice Works on Exercise,

Self-Compassion, a daily journal for

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act, and very soon in September she

will have a new book out called Wise.

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Effort, which we'll talk quite

a bit about on this show.

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She's been featured on NPR, the

Wall Street Journal, plenty of other

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places, and is just really excellent

at translating complex psychological

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concepts into practical, actionable steps.

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Once again, Diana has this

great book called Wise Effort

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coming out in September.

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It is worth a look in a pre-order.

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Now, I've mentioned this before on

the show, pre-orders really matter.

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They're great for bookshops,

they're great for authors,

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and I can vouch for this book.

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I read it, I got a lot out of it.

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It's a very clear, excellent discussion of

key act concepts, merge with contemplative

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practice and other broader evolving.

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Perspectives in psychology.

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So if you're a regular listener

here, if you also are interested in

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this intersection of modern, high

integrity psychology along with

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contemplative science, I genuinely

think it'll be right up your alley.

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And I've been looking forward

to talking to Diana for a while.

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Today we talk about her personal history,

her professional history, her own

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experience with disordered eating, ayia,

her experience with traditional treatment.

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Talk about concepts related to attachment,

experiential attachment, her evolution

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throughout clinical psychology, her path

to also doing serious yoga training.

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Talk about energy management, working

for change, finding direction,

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values, talents, and concrete

practices for exploring those things.

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The plenty of other topics as well, like

couples work, intimacy, exercise, ai.

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There's a lot.

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It's really great.

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Really enjoyed it.

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So I hope you enjoy my

conversation with Diana Hill.

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I'm here with Diana Hill.

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Diana, thanks so much

for coming on the pod.

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Diana Hill: I'm glad to be here.

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Carl Erik Fisher: So we were

talking a little bit before.

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I've been following your work.

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I really love the way you translate, act.

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I love the way you bring

in your personal story.

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So to the extent you're comfortable,

I would love as a lead in to talking

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about your great book wise effort.

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If we could tell a little bit more about

your own personal background, some of

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the story that you share in the book.

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You don't identify as far as I

know as someone with traditional

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substance use disorder, but you

do have a, a recovery history.

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So maybe talk a little bit about.

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How that came to be.

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Diana Hill: I like how you say

to the extent you're comfortable,

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which is very unactive.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah, fair

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Diana Hill: enough.

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To the extent that it is in service

of your values and is uncomfortable,

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please share about your recovery

history, which I'm happy to.

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It's, it's not comfortable, but getting

more comfortable the more I do it.

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So maybe I don't have a substance use

addiction, but I always liked going

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into those AA meetings because I felt

like they were more my people sometimes

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than the sort of treatment groups were.

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Because my history with disordered

eating is one of, I struggled with

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anorexia when I was in my early teens.

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I like to say that was like my slow

attempt towards killing myself.

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And then I tried to do the faster

version in my later teens, but

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the early twenties and beyond.

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Transitioned into bulimia and, uh, sort

of like a kinda wild ride experience.

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And along the way with all of that,

so the depths of my anorexia took

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me to, you know, hospitalization.

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I dropped from like a, I don't know, a 120

5-year-old healthy teenager to 72 pounds.

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I remember the morning that

I kind of woke up to it.

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I, I, I put my legs over the side of a bed

and I looked down and they looked like.

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Like when you go on the beach

and you find like a, a bird bone.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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And it has like the real knobs at the end.

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Diana Hill: Yeah.

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It's like that, that, oh my gosh, I

saw it like that, that sort of waking

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up point that I think many people with

addiction have multiple times over.

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But that was a pretty impactful

one of, of waking up to what I was

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doing to my body and then led me

to treatment many different forms.

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AA being one of 'em, but also like.

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Hot springs in San as mountains

and singing with whales and

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you know, all sorts of things

to find my way to recovery.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Well, we

don't have to dwell too much on.

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What's not working or what's broken in

the treatment system because I think a

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lot of people are familiar with that.

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But I'm just curious when you say

sometimes it felt like the 12 step

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community were more your people.

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What, what didn't work about

traditional eating disorder treatment?

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Diana Hill: Well, what didn't work I

think is continues to be, what I see

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as a psychologist now is the medical.

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Model medicalization of a human

being, pulling a human outta context.

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And the 12 steps also didn't

work, uh, for me fully either.

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I mean, these are just all bits and

pieces of a fabric of the weaving of,

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of how I found my way to recovery.

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But there was something about the,

the vulnerability of the share of

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someone standing up and sharing.

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I love those open meetings that

were just basically like someone.

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Talking about their worst, lowest low

that I was like, yes, this feels, there's

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something about this that's so desing and

feels so good, and feels so like that.

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My, my shame was okay, like the,

the compassion and the flow of

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compassion that can happen in those

rooms, that really is a parallel to

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what we see in something like act.

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Because it was a really familiar

feeling when Kelly Wilson, who is one

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of the co-founders of Act, came to.

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My university many years later, I'm

in my late twenties and I'm still

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freaking struggling with this thing

that comes and goes, and comes and goes.

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And he, he came as a, the founder of

athletes, a super highly respected

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academic who shared about his own

story of addiction and cried and talked

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about his brother committing suicide

and, and, and that he held both right?

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That he could.

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Have that history and use that

history as sort of the compost to

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which he now is, is serving in a

very science-backed academic way.

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And it was okay for all of

it to be together as one.

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So less medicalized, more whole

person acknowledging science

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and the value of science.

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But science isn't all of it.

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Spirituality.

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For me, a big part of my recovery

and a big part of the work

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that I do with clients is this

sort of secular but sacred.

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So the, the roots of finding that a

sort of like greater expansive awake

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awareness of leaning into the bigger

cosmos of love is like part of it for me.

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And I don't think you're

gonna find that at the.

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Hospital that they were having me drink

three insurers a day and weighing me

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first thing in the morning and making

sure that I peed before they weighed me.

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Sort of a little bit of a different angle.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That struck me.

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I mean, the thing that got me convinced

that I could invite you on flourishing

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after addiction and actually have.

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A reasonable conversation without

like square peg, round holding.

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It was, I heard you on your own podcast

sharing about that process of shame

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and also sharing about that process of

wanting to combine rigorous science.

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I think I remember right, you were in

your PhD program and then you left like

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almost immediately to a yoga ashram.

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Diana Hill: Yeah.

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C, can we talk about how hard it is to get

into a clinical psychology PhD program?

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It's like 1%.

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It is so freaking hard.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah.

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Diana Hill: To get into these

programs and, uh, my commitment.

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When I went, I remember packing up our

U-Haul with our black lab in the middle.

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Me and my husband, well at the time

he was my partner, we're like driving

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across the Rockies and I'm like, okay, no

matter what, I'm committed to my recovery

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and I'm committed to serving people.

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And within the first few months

of my program, I, I'm already

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relapsing and I was working with.

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This really well-known researcher

in the area of eating disorders.

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You know, I'm, I'm there to research

bulimia and I was throwing up in

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the hallway up in the cognitive

wing because I was smart enough to

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like leave the clinical wing to go

to the cognitive wing, to go purge.

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And then being able to, to let it all go

like to, to give it all up and which was

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actually like, like this huge surrender.

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You know, we talk about the surrender

experiment, like the, the huge surrender.

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That's necessary, but that also opens

the door to receive so much more that

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I didn't even know I was gonna receive.

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That was the early parts of my

academic training of how to, how

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to do this thing differently.

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'cause the, the track I was

on wasn't a match for me,

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Carl Erik Fisher: wasn't a

match in part because of like,

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perfectionism, workaholism.

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'cause those are the parts of

your, your book and the parts of

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your story that you shared that

I really identify with as well.

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And in my own twenties in medical school.

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Having the sense that like I had

these two parts of my life that were

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completely and totally incompatible,

and I had no hope that they could match.

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One was being interested in meditation

and mindfulness, and one was just

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grinding, just grinding to get

papers out and try to establish

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myself as an academic and my case.

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I just stayed.

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I stayed, I mean, like I left, I

left to go to rehab, but then I, I

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came back and I reentered the right.

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I guess it did work.

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It didn't work, and then it

did, or it made, it did, or I

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made the adjustments necessary.

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I just still don't totally know.

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I mean, what was it about

that time and that setting

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that made it not work for you?

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Diana Hill: What is it about putting

someone with a history of anorexia

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into a setting of seven people that are

like highly high achievers competitive,

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more workload than you can possibly

ever get done with this like intense

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praise for destroying yourself.

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Like there was this paper that I was

working on with Joe Ciarrochi, who's part

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of the process-based therapy revolution.

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So there's act and then the next one out.

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Coming our way is process-based

therapy and the paper was on

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attachment and looking at an act.

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We talk a lot about

experiential avoidance.

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So avoiding discomfort is the root of much

of our suffering, which is in alignment

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with like aversion and Buddhism, right?

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The poisons of aversion.

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And uh, for a long time act had talked

about that, like the reason why we

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have addictions or we have depression

or we have anxiety is in part because

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we're unable to be with discomfort.

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That drives a lot of our addiction,

sort of the negative reinforcement of

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removing the aversive stimulus, but

what was neglected for a long time

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and is coming more into view with ACT

and with process-based approaches.

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This is all gonna make sense in a

moment, is experiential attachment and

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that we can be become experientially

attached to good feelings, to praise

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to, this is why we wanna go, go back to.

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Our Instagram account

and see more followers.

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Like we want that feeling even

though it makes us feel worse.

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And this experiential attachment,

for me, part of my addiction is

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the attachment to you liking me.

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Mm-hmm.

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To your praise, to the good

girls and the good jobs.

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And the Rhonda Merwin, I had her on

the, she's the the president of A

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CBS and she's like this phenomenal

researcher and I had her on my show once

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and she talked about eating disorders

as being the Olympians of striving.

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Like you learned what you're

supposed to do to be liked,

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and you got really good at it.

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Like I got an a triple plus in it and

that a triple plus was what I, what my

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addiction was to, and that destroyed me.

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So these environments are

really dangerous for me.

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It's like the alcoholic in the bar

situation of that experiential attachment.

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And what's, what's interesting

when you, in the paper, Joe did

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this really beautiful review.

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The biology of that, the

neuroscience of that, and how

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there's sort of two things that are

happening at the same time, right?

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So there's the habituation that we

have to, the good feeling, right?

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You keep doing it.

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It doesn't feel as good.

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So you're doing the thing that you

crave, but you like it less and less.

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You have to do more of it.

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I mean, this is just classic addiction

research, but then there's this other

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part of it, which is the sensitization

that you have, that you crave more.

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Those systems of craving get more

and more activated over time, so you

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need less and less to have them get

activated, so you end up wanting more.

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And liking less, and that

is the sort of biology of.

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What was going on For me, I

wanted more, like now I'm at

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the 1% of the top university.

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I'm getting like the, the prize of

the prize of the prize, but liking

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less and less and less of it.

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So I had to remove myself and go to

an ASAM to get my head on straight.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah,

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Diana Hill: to figure that out.

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Carl Erik Fisher: So did you have

a turning point moment, like was

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it at the ASAM or was it just

continued work and then steady gains?

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How did you get from there to.

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Like feeling like the

grounds underneath your feet.

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Diana Hill: That's an assumption that

I feel the grounds underneath my feet.

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Yeah, fair enough.

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Enough.

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I'm actually, I abide by the, uh, the

Tibetan principle of Groundlessness.

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The ground is never underneath our feet.

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It is constantly changing.

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So is my sense of recovery and sense

of self and sense of everything.

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My own practice, the way that

I practice my own spirituality

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is in constant state of change.

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So I've gotten better at being

in the state of groundlessness.

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And how do we.

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Find that are both our center.

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In the Groundlessness.

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So I spent a lot of time in the

concentration practices, more

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of the Zen, uh, and that was

through, um, my connection to Han.

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So I am lucky to have come

from a lineage of Buddhism.

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My dad was a longtime Buddhist

practitioner and was introduced

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to Buddhism as a, as a kid.

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I went to Catholic school.

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But then my dad was Buddhist.

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It was this bizarre situation, but

my dad was studying with Tek Hanh and

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he'd go on these like 21 day retreats

every summer he'd go to Plum Village

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and when, and I was 19 in my sort

of early recovery, was went and, um,

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walked with him and learned about.

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This, this very basic concentration

practice, this simple breathing

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in, I'm aware that I'm

breathing in, breathing out.

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I'm aware that I'm breathing out.

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How closely can we follow the breath?

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How closely can I stay here?

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So that's the centering practices.

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And he taught the centering

practices in a lot of different ways.

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Walking through the aspen trees,

we can center eating mindfully.

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We can center in loving conversation

with another person we can center.

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So I learned those centering

practices for a really long time,

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and I, and those were like my, they

talk about the rope of mindfulness.

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So those are my rote.

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And then, then I started to learn,

okay, it's not just about centering

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'cause what am I centering in?

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I'm centering in groundlessness, but

what is that groundlessness made of?

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And some of the Tibetan practices

about sort of the awake awareness

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and the expansive awareness.

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In, in act, the closest thing

we get to is self, is context.

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That they're, they're centered

in a spacious emptiness.

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I would say it's empty of, of

separate self, but also full of love.

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And how do I lean back

into the groundlessness?

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In that space of love.

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And that's more of what my, the later

parts of my work have been about in

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terms of sort of the, the wise effort

and the wisdom practices that are about

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this more interconnected sense of self.

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Mm-hmm.

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That's where I'm kind of, what I've

gotten interested in more recently.

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Some of the Tibetan practices.

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Carl Erik Fisher: Well,

thank you for that.

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I think it's a great organizing

principle for the book.

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I personally loved it.

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It was always the question I asked

whenever I met Buddhist teachers

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earlier on in my practice, and

continuing to this day out of the whole

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eightfold path, I was like, effort.

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What do you mean wise effort?

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Like is in more better?

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Or like how do I know it's wise?

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Like if I'm at the basic level of

mindfulness versus more complex phenomena.

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It's like that that.

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I've always been and like to this day

for sure, still extremely uncomfortable

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with that tension between the discernment

between making the effort to change

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versus relaxing into an acceptance.

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The way that the very title of ACT puts

it or like the dialectic and DBT, like

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I always come back to that, that point.

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I think you could have a whole

career about wise effort, and I've

361

:

Diana Hill: made

362

:

Carl Erik Fisher: that

in my career recently.

363

:

I've made it your career.

364

:

Diana Hill: And we even

define what wise effort is.

365

:

I mean, we should probably.

366

:

Talk a little bit about that.

367

:

'cause that's just like my,

368

:

Carl Erik Fisher: yeah, yeah, yeah.

369

:

So that's like whether related to

the book or to your overall practice.

370

:

I was just curious like how you sum

up, like if somebody came like Allah

371

:

me 20 years ago, like what do you mean?

372

:

Why is that?

373

:

Like what is effort?

374

:

How do I know what's wise versus unwise?

375

:

Diana Hill: Mm-hmm.

376

:

Well, the way that I've gone

about, so just the orient,

377

:

I'm stealing a word that is.

378

:

You know, sometimes it's called right

effort that is part of the eightfold path.

379

:

So, you know, Buddhism has

all these lists, right?

380

:

So there's the, there's the four Noble

truths, the sort of source of our

381

:

suffering, the cause of our suffering.

382

:

And the, the fourth noble truth is

that there's a way out of suffering.

383

:

And the way out is the eightfold path.

384

:

On that eightfold path, there's eight

things that are, even though it's a path,

385

:

it's, it's not linear, it's circular.

386

:

You're going around them and around them

and around them over and over again.

387

:

And those eight things are things like.

388

:

Wise livelihood.

389

:

How, what, what are you doing

with your life and your time

390

:

and your making of money?

391

:

Like this is Wise livelihood for

Carl Fisher and for Diana Hill?

392

:

Um, wise, speech wise concentration.

393

:

So wise effort is one component of that.

394

:

And I originally learned about wise effort

from Tek Hanh and later on I started

395

:

getting into this idea about like energy

use, because I have, I'm like a force.

396

:

I'm a generator, I'm a force.

397

:

I have a tremendous amount of energy.

398

:

I can use that energy in one direction.

399

:

That would take me down

to 72 pounds, right?

400

:

Or I could use that energy to be

of service and to create things

401

:

that are helping others, right?

402

:

So one aspect of wise effort is, is

our energy and our energy that we

403

:

channel, and can we channel it in?

404

:

A way that's aligned with our values,

but another aspect of it is this

405

:

sort of like the original sort of

Buddhist story around wise effort.

406

:

Is sauna in the or Sonya and

the flute or No, the, the loot.

407

:

The string?

408

:

Yeah, the string.

409

:

Like are you tightening it up?

410

:

Are you loosening it up and.

411

:

There's places where we need

to loosen up our energy.

412

:

There's places where we need

to tighten up our energy.

413

:

So for you, 20 years ago, I would

be curious, like, where are you put,

414

:

where are you putting your energy?

415

:

Carl?

416

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Partying, dude.

417

:

Diana Hill: Yeah, partying.

418

:

And is that, is that

aligned with your values?

419

:

Like who you wanna be, how you

wanna show up in the world?

420

:

What short term?

421

:

The consequences, long term,

the consequences, right.

422

:

Where would you wanna be putting your

energy, even if it was uncomfortable?

423

:

So wise effort isn't about comfort and

we've started the show with like it's

424

:

share about your story is comfortable.

425

:

It's not about comfort.

426

:

It's actually sometimes quite

uncomfortable to engage in wise

427

:

effort, but it's about a deeper,

wiser, interconnected self.

428

:

It's help helping you channel like

the banks of a river that force, that

429

:

life force that moves through you

and how to get it unstuck and get

430

:

it redirected and then dial it back.

431

:

Dial it back or dial it up if you

need to dial it up, depending on

432

:

what's happening in the situation,

433

:

Carl Erik Fisher: I'm gonna take it in

a slightly different direction than I

434

:

had planned actually, because it strikes

me you're, you're an ACT trainer too.

435

:

Very clinically skilled at this.

436

:

You're not just, it's not just that

you've written a book, but you have a

437

:

lot of on the ground experience working

with people trying to make changes.

438

:

And a comment, as you well know, a

common clinical scenario is someone

439

:

might say, and I'm even thinking of

myself 20 years ago, someone might

440

:

say That all sounds well and good.

441

:

I could talk about my values, I could

write it down in the moment though

442

:

it feels impossible and I think act

is very good at the sort of verbal

443

:

juujitsu of unpacking the can't there.

444

:

Like there's probably some selfing,

like what kind of person am I?

445

:

There's also just like just

straight up fusion, whatever.

446

:

What can you suggest though for

someone who has that feeling like,

447

:

this is not that complicated.

448

:

I just can't do it.

449

:

Like I feel too bad.

450

:

In that moment, I can't go out.

451

:

Diana Hill: That's not a feeling.

452

:

That's a thought.

453

:

That's why I'd start there.

454

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah.

455

:

Diana Hill: In the moment it

feels impossible is a thought.

456

:

So first, just to be aware of, of your

thinking and the fusion that you have

457

:

with your thoughts, because if you write

in the moment it feels impossible across

458

:

your palm, and you hold that right

up in front of your eyes and you walk

459

:

around your life like that, then yeah.

460

:

You're believing that thought to be true.

461

:

So with Act We and with Buddhism,

we're, we're not assuming that

462

:

the things that our mind is

telling us is all that helpful.

463

:

And that, that we can actually, we

can act independently, we can behave

464

:

independently from our thoughts.

465

:

And when you actually do

that, you already do it.

466

:

You wake up in the morning

and the alarm goes off and you

467

:

say, I can't get outta bed.

468

:

And while you're saying I can't

get outta bed, somehow your legs

469

:

get outta bed and you go and

you make a cup of coffee, right?

470

:

Or you say.

471

:

Like a really classic one is like, oh

my gosh, I'm gonna, I always say this

472

:

one, 'cause Robin Walls are tied to me.

473

:

I'm gonna die of embarrassment.

474

:

I'm gonna die of embarrassment.

475

:

So I can't get up on the stage, or

I can't dance at the wedding, or I

476

:

can't tell someone about the truth

of where my addiction has taken me.

477

:

Right?

478

:

But what if you actually

observe what's happening there?

479

:

Is that.

480

:

You will have an increased feeling of

flushness in your face, and your heart

481

:

might be a little bit quicker, and

you may have the thought, I'm gonna

482

:

die of this, or I can't stand this.

483

:

And it'll get bigger and bigger

and bigger and bigger and bigger.

484

:

And no one's ever died of that.

485

:

You're never gonna die of an urge.

486

:

You wrote the book on

urges, I wanna read it.

487

:

Um, you're never gonna die of an urge.

488

:

You feel like you will

die if you not give.

489

:

You've not given to this urge.

490

:

I will tell you like guaranteed,

a lot more people have died

491

:

from giving into urges.

492

:

From urges.

493

:

I've never met anyone

that's ever died of an urge.

494

:

So we have to look at our

thoughts and we have to practice

495

:

doing something different.

496

:

Than what we've been doing, and

there's all these processes to act.

497

:

So that's one of them is, is acting

independently from your thoughts.

498

:

Another process has to do with how you're

relating to your, your feelings, your

499

:

affect, and being able to identify that.

500

:

Sometimes our feelings, we just

need to just allow them to be there.

501

:

Sometimes we need to listen to them.

502

:

And then there's processes that have

to do with your sense of self and,

503

:

and then there's the real boots on

the ground behaviorism, which Kelly

504

:

Wilson, the psychologist I talked about

earlier, was such a staunch behaviorist.

505

:

He was like, so.

506

:

Into behaviorism, which I think we

all need to, if you are recovering

507

:

from addiction, you need to freaking

learn about behaviorism because it

508

:

is like your environmental control.

509

:

Don't put Diana Hill in a PhD program

and just assume that she's gonna be okay.

510

:

Right?

511

:

That that's like the context was

a cue that triggered my addiction.

512

:

So we need to know that the

basics of behaviorism and positive

513

:

reinforcement, negative reinforcement.

514

:

Environmental control over our behavior.

515

:

Inter behaviorism as well, how

we interact with our context.

516

:

There's a lot there that

if you just had that.

517

:

I can't handle this or just use

wise effort, that's not enough.

518

:

And I have a whole, in the

book, I have a, I map it out.

519

:

Like I, basically, I help people

identify their struggle and the sort

520

:

of three components that keep us in.

521

:

And we can talk about this, three

components that keep us in an addiction,

522

:

and then how to open up our mind.

523

:

How to open up to feelings.

524

:

How to open up our sense of self, how

to open up to change, and those are all

525

:

based on these processes from ACT and

from science, but also from contemplative.

526

:

Wisdom.

527

:

Wisdom that I've learned over time.

528

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah, I

thought it was a really nice

529

:

structure and a very useful book.

530

:

Very like rigorously in line with act.

531

:

One of the things that struck me as

like a nice addition or an elaboration

532

:

or like, I dunno if it's the ACT Acts

sacked, religious, or something to

533

:

say it's a embellishment, but you

have a discussion of genius before.

534

:

Values.

535

:

Diana Hill: It's very anti act.

536

:

Carl Erik Fisher: It's anti act, right.

537

:

I didn't want to say

it that strongly, but,

538

:

Diana Hill: oh, there's a lot of anti,

yeah, I, I've had long discussions

539

:

about this concept with genius.

540

:

A lot of people.

541

:

Yeah.

542

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Okay.

543

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

544

:

Tell me about that.

545

:

'cause that, that jumped out in me.

546

:

Like I thought, like classical act would

probably be like, you do values exercises,

547

:

you determine your true north, and then

you try to orient your behavior to it.

548

:

But you have this other investigation

or this inquiry into genius.

549

:

Diana Hill: Right.

550

:

Which it also could be.

551

:

Anti Buddhism too.

552

:

I, so the first person I had read

my book was my dad, and he was like,

553

:

I don't like this genius stuff.

554

:

And then I.

555

:

Went on to, um, I actually was at a table.

556

:

I was at a retreat in Costa Rica, and

if you can imagine this table, so at the

557

:

table was Jack Kornfield, Dan Siegel,

Truda Goodman, who's another meditation

558

:

teacher, a good friend of mine, and the

an artist, a Grammy Award winning artist.

559

:

Talks about like self-love

and and his work.

560

:

And we were talking about genius

and I brought it up to the table

561

:

like, what do you all think

about this concept of genius?

562

:

And half of 'em hated it.

563

:

Like, no, I don't like

this idea, like this.

564

:

And the idea of genius being

that we all have a unique source.

565

:

Of energy within us.

566

:

The things that make you, you, you know

that if you, the things that come easy

567

:

easily to you, that your talents, your

character strengths, your emotional

568

:

intelligence, that your interests with it.

569

:

When you are in flow, when you're,

when you are doing your best version

570

:

of you, it just comes easily to you.

571

:

And other people are

like, how do you do that?

572

:

Like, that's so hard for

me, but it's so easy.

573

:

For you.

574

:

Do you have something like that, Carl, do

you have aspects of you that are like that

575

:

Carl Erik Fisher: working on it?

576

:

I would say writing.

577

:

I would say like flow

writing comes easily to you.

578

:

Hey, I mean like I hesitate because.

579

:

It can also, as you well know, it's, it

could be the most torturous thing on the

580

:

planet, but yeah, sticking it out for like

that 15, 20% what it really feels like

581

:

flow, whether it's in the, the research,

the processing or the writing phase.

582

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

583

:

So you can get into flow with writing.

584

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Yep.

585

:

Diana Hill: Sometimes when you are

in flow with writing, what aspects of

586

:

you are, are coming to the surface?

587

:

Is there like sort of a ability

to put things, uh, sort of

588

:

divergent ideas together?

589

:

Is there.

590

:

Aspect to writing where you can

like write really technically, you

591

:

can translate things for people

that other people can't translate.

592

:

You're generating cre, creative new ideas.

593

:

What's your thing in writing?

594

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah, it was

related to the first thing you said.

595

:

I would say making connections and

like this is not my original idea.

596

:

A lot of people have

described this, the sense of.

597

:

Transcribing rather than initiating

out of my own like small self e effort

598

:

to listening and just almost like

transcribing the connections that come.

599

:

It's not quite as spiritualistic as

it, it might sound me saying it right

600

:

now, but like there's, there's an

element of me getting out of the way.

601

:

Diana Hill: Yeah, and

602

:

Carl Erik Fisher: that feels like flow

and especially in the active synthesis.

603

:

And that doesn't, that's, that

doesn't shortcut the fact that like,

604

:

at the end of the day, I still have

to write a shitty first draft and I

605

:

have to go through many, many drafts.

606

:

And that's never, that's never flow.

607

:

It's just, you just have to get it out

in my experience and then go through it.

608

:

Diana Hill: No.

609

:

Yeah.

610

:

Yeah.

611

:

I was at a concert this the couple weeks

ago where the Glen Phillips, who's a, he's

612

:

a friend of mine, but he's a, it's like.

613

:

Old school had this band called

Hold the Wit Sprocket, but he

614

:

was talking about creativity in

terms of, oh sure, I love to it.

615

:

It's finding the walls, like which,

which is, which is a weight bearing wall.

616

:

And in, in doing that, you're gonna

build up a lot of lot walls and a

617

:

lot of walls are gonna crumble and

then you're eventually gonna find

618

:

sort of what are the weight bearing

walls of your creative project.

619

:

Right?

620

:

So genius.

621

:

So genius has is that is

when, when unobstructed.

622

:

And you're in your genius.

623

:

And your genius is

directed by your values.

624

:

You're engaging in wise effort, but

what often happens to that energy flow?

625

:

I mean, I gotta talk about energy

'cause I'm like a yoga, like my

626

:

roots are in yoga here, so, right.

627

:

The prana energy.

628

:

But there's energy is talked

about in so many different ways.

629

:

Like we can think about energy

in the mitochondria of the cell.

630

:

The source of source of energy.

631

:

We can think about energy and sort

of polyvagal theory of like the

632

:

energy exchange between two humans.

633

:

When you smile, it activates

me, my energy, right?

634

:

So the energetic flow of our genius

when it's when it's directed by our

635

:

values, really rad things can happen.

636

:

But what can also happen

is our genius can get.

637

:

Blocked, underused or overused,

which is my case, overuse of my,

638

:

my persistence, overuse of my

emotional sensitivity to people.

639

:

Please.

640

:

People as opposed to

using that genius wisely.

641

:

So what what I work with people in,

in this book and in this project

642

:

is identifying that sort of what is

your genius energy and then how do

643

:

you use some of these principles of

psychology and contemplative practice

644

:

to channel it into the right spots?

645

:

Use it in the, in the, the

Sonya, in the loot story, use

646

:

it, dial it in the right amount.

647

:

In Buddhism, they talk about

near enemies, which is.

648

:

Sort of a similar concept, like

you can have, maybe you have

649

:

a, a genius around humility.

650

:

My husband has this, he's like

the most humble human on the

651

:

planet that I've ever met.

652

:

He has a, he has his PhD in education.

653

:

He's super smart, and

he works with teachers.

654

:

And he would never, ever, ever

call himself a doctor, ever or ever

655

:

say that he has a PhD in education

and he is on teacher salary.

656

:

He would never ask for more, right?

657

:

So he has this, this humility to him.

658

:

But the, the near enemy of that

humility could be, um, being like

659

:

playing really, really, really small

and, um, hiding parts of yourself and

660

:

never really stepping in and saying

like, Hey, I have some education here.

661

:

I have, you know, I could,

like, I have, I could draw upon

662

:

some of my leadership skills.

663

:

So, um, with near enemies, with our

Genius, we wanna just start to look at

664

:

what is it that is causing us to play

small, maybe hold our genius back, or what

665

:

is it that's causing us to put too much.

666

:

Of that genius in the wrong direction,

that's leading us off track.

667

:

Carl Erik Fisher: So I, I think a lot of

people struggle with that, and especially

668

:

in the dialogue around young men.

669

:

There's a lot of discussion

about like meaning and purpose.

670

:

It doesn't have to be gendered, but

I think it, it, like the point of

671

:

that example is that it comes up in

different for, with different language

672

:

in different ways, and I think it's

nice of you to repurpose some of the

673

:

language around Genius to make it.

674

:

Actionable, and we could have like

a half day, four hour podcast just

675

:

like describing all of the different

practices you have in the book.

676

:

But maybe you could share

that as a starting point.

677

:

Like how, how does somebody actually

explore some of those questions

678

:

around genius energy values?

679

:

When somebody is

struggling for a direction,

680

:

Diana Hill: struggling for a direction?

681

:

Well, struggling for a direction is you

need like the, the engine for the car.

682

:

What kind of car are you?

683

:

Mm.

684

:

Are you a Porsche or are you a Volvo?

685

:

I had a, like one of those

old Volvos when I was.

686

:

Like first out of college or my first

car was a Volvo and it, but this was

687

:

like back when Volvos weren't sleek.

688

:

It was like a tank and you had to like

turn the wheel four times to get it to

689

:

turn right and it couldn't get damaged too

much because I got in so many accidents.

690

:

Really smart first car

for a, a teenager, right?

691

:

So I was a Volvo.

692

:

But that kind of engine, maybe

like, that's sort of your genius.

693

:

That's the genius of the Volvo, right?

694

:

The a Porsche is another type

of car where like, you turn it a

695

:

tiny bit and it goes zoom, right?

696

:

People with anxiety,

I, I call 'em Porsches.

697

:

It's like you're, you're just like

uber high anxiety sensitivity.

698

:

You just like turn the wheel

a tiny bit and you're off.

699

:

Right?

700

:

It's another beautiful car.

701

:

There's a lot of benefits to it, right?

702

:

So what are we gonna do with that?

703

:

What direction do we point that?

704

:

And that's where we look at.

705

:

Look at our values and our

values are things that have to do

706

:

with sort of the how of living.

707

:

So, so yeah, you've got

some Volvo qualities to you.

708

:

Now, how do you wanna use your Volvo?

709

:

How do you wanna use your Porsche?

710

:

And we can identify those values.

711

:

We can go down and, you know, there's

like a million you can ask chat

712

:

to produce a values list for you.

713

:

And chat will give you

VA a list of values and.

714

:

I really feel like we don't, we

don't really know values until we've

715

:

experienced some form of pain in our

life that points to our heart and how

716

:

we wanna show up and how we wanna be.

717

:

Or until we've experienced some kind

of vitality in our life that points

718

:

to our heart and how we wanna be.

719

:

So our values are reflections of

what brings us vitality and also

720

:

what brings us the most pain.

721

:

And when we have clarity around that, like

what brings me a lot of pain is, is human.

722

:

Human suffering and

actually plant suffering.

723

:

I'm really connected to plants in

our planet and like see like a plant

724

:

that's hurting and it makes me hurt.

725

:

I have like empathy for

plants, so human suffering.

726

:

Plant suffering.

727

:

And so it gives me a little bit

of direction of where I wanna put

728

:

my Porsche or my Volvo energy.

729

:

Right now I'm working, I'm working

on this project with Alyssa Apple,

730

:

where we're doing climate resilience

training for college students across

731

:

the use of the 10 uc campuses.

732

:

So it's values aligned.

733

:

It's like, that's a direction

for me, but the way I got to that

734

:

direction was, this brings me pain.

735

:

And then the other aspect of

values is what brings you vitality?

736

:

When, when, what lights you up?

737

:

What, what energizes you?

738

:

What, when.

739

:

You're engaged with it, you feel like

a sense of meaning and purpose, but it

740

:

doesn't have to be something giant like

doing a big climate research intervention.

741

:

It could be something like a client

that I write about in the book who was

742

:

a, a petter and whenever she worked

with animals, it brought her so much

743

:

vitality and she turned that into

her, her business, and she turned

744

:

it into her volunteer work, and

she's making big impact from that.

745

:

From pet sitting.

746

:

So we all can find our way to our

values, but then we bring our Volvo

747

:

or our Porsche to sort of drive it.

748

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Right?

749

:

Yeah.

750

:

And I'm interested in

exploring the Volvo, Porsche.

751

:

Like the, the genius stage a little

more because like, I think that's,

752

:

personally, I feel like I have a

repertoire of how to explore values and

753

:

I think even people who are not into

acts in substance use disorder treatment

754

:

or addiction treatment, they might know

some of the basic interventions, like

755

:

a values card sort or things like that.

756

:

But you write, you write in the

genius part of the book about

757

:

things like talents and interests.

758

:

And I think in a lot of domains of life

now, but especially among younger people,

759

:

and this is something I worry about for

my own kid, there seems to be a sort

760

:

of pervasive, call it anhedonia or a.

761

:

A lack of hope that might relate to

climate resilience or otherwise, or, or

762

:

just the difficulty identifying interest?

763

:

The word interest jumped out at me

because I've seen many situations

764

:

where people have said like,

I don't, I don't really know.

765

:

It's hard for me.

766

:

Is it because my brain is

fried because of social media?

767

:

Is it because the world fe feels

like a dangerous and and scary place?

768

:

So.

769

:

I'm just, that strikes me as a useful

addition before jumping to like values

770

:

work can feel very big sometimes.

771

:

It's like sit down and write about

like if the next year of your life is

772

:

one of the biggest years of your life,

or you fully step into who you are.

773

:

I mean, that's like a really tall order.

774

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

775

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Am I

right that like focusing on.

776

:

Smaller bites or like interest and

talents could be a way of taking

777

:

smaller bites at the problem.

778

:

Diana Hill: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

779

:

So interest is an interesting,

it's an interesting concept.

780

:

We don't know what we're interested

in until we try a million of things.

781

:

A million things.

782

:

And so when you ask like why, why is it

that young people may be feeling like

783

:

don't know what they're interested?

784

:

Well, first we're figuring it out, but

part of it is probably a couple of things

785

:

that are happening with young people.

786

:

One is the.

787

:

Over, I guess putting

them in one lane too soon.

788

:

It's like, if you haven't played

baseball by the age of 12,

789

:

don't even try and join a team.

790

:

You're done for kid.

791

:

Are you kidding?

792

:

You're gonna like stand up there

and look like a complete moron.

793

:

It would be embarrassment

to our whole family.

794

:

No, you're out.

795

:

So sorry.

796

:

That interest, like, you'll never

know if you liked baseball 'cause you

797

:

didn't try it before the age of 12.

798

:

And, and we're, we're like streamlining

these kids into these, these

799

:

highways, these super highways.

800

:

That they're supposed to go

really fast on to get somewhere.

801

:

Meanwhile, we're all like,

and the education system is

802

:

gonna blow up at some point.

803

:

So where are they going to?

804

:

So that's one problem with, with

our, with our teens, with our, with

805

:

our kids, is we're making them focus

up way too early and we're not.

806

:

Encouraging exploration, right.

807

:

We're not encouraging.

808

:

Try a, try a lot of different things.

809

:

I mean, I have like, I have one kid in

my house that likes horseback riding.

810

:

He like got into like roping and

then he loves theater and now he

811

:

plays five instruments because

no matter what, whatever he

812

:

picked up, I'm like, go for it.

813

:

I don't.

814

:

Oh, let's try it.

815

:

And then I have another kid that's

surfing and mountain biking and really

816

:

like getting on, like has a band that

goes out and, and play plays in a band.

817

:

And these are just, none of these

things were ever things that I

818

:

ever was interested in, ever.

819

:

But they're just exploring.

820

:

So even us as adults, we, we tend to

become psychologically inflexible.

821

:

Because to explore some of those

interests, maybe you, maybe you would

822

:

like horseback riding Carl, but that

would require at your age, getting

823

:

on a horse and with like the eight

year olds and looking really bad.

824

:

Like there's an element

of you gotta look bad.

825

:

So how do we tolerate that?

826

:

This is how we explore interests is

the same way that you explore foods.

827

:

You can, you can stay in the same

lane and order the same thing at the

828

:

same restaurant, or you could try and

explore other types of food and you may

829

:

discover that you really like something

that you didn't even know existed.

830

:

This is how, also what keeps us in

sort of our, our boxes in terms of our.

831

:

Cross-cultural conversations.

832

:

Like we say, you look at everyone in your

little group and everyone is white, right?

833

:

Because in order to have more diversity

in my friend groom, I'd have to expand

834

:

beyond what I know and what's comfortable.

835

:

Um, so I think with Genius Energy,

it's some of that, like the the

836

:

willingness to experiment and what we

do know in terms of the psychological

837

:

research on that, which is.

838

:

Fascinating is that the more that you

experiment, the more behavioral stretching

839

:

that you do outside of your comfort

zone, it feeds back to you in terms of

840

:

wellbeing and energy, and especially

when they looked at this research,

841

:

especially when you are stretching

yourself, behavioral stretching outside

842

:

of your comfort zone when you're really

low, when you have a really low mood,

843

:

and especially when you're doing, it acts

in the service of kindness when you add.

844

:

Acts of kindness to it so we could

expand our interests in that way as well.

845

:

Carl Erik Fisher: Yeah, I love that

because it brings it back to some

846

:

of the core themes of your book.

847

:

So your wise effort tasks are

get curious, open up, focus your

848

:

energy, and those are very active.

849

:

They, at least to me, they imply be

real behaviors in the world, being

850

:

a human being in the world, whereas.

851

:

Especially in a Scholastic context,

but also in other context, this idea

852

:

of like interests or directions or

values, you can feel very heady.

853

:

Like, oh, I'm supposed to go off

with a journal to a library and, and

854

:

write it down and then figure it out.

855

:

But, uh, if you don't know your

interests, then one of the key suggestions

856

:

I'm hearing is make that a pursuit.

857

:

If you want interests, then go

out, get curious, make effort.

858

:

Try different things and that

inevitably recurs to, I'm, I'm going

859

:

to have problems along the way.

860

:

The things that are going to be difficult

and the point is not to be comfortable.

861

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

862

:

And you have to prioritize it

and make a commitment to it.

863

:

And it may mean letting go of some other

things that you're spending your time

864

:

and energy on to prioritize interests.

865

:

I work a lot with people in their

forties in their relationships where

866

:

they just like, no one wants to

have sex, and they're like sitting

867

:

across the way from each other.

868

:

They don't even know each other anymore.

869

:

Like talk about loss of interest,

like total loss of interest in this

870

:

other human being who is so inter

every, every human As as a therapist,

871

:

I don't care who you are, if you're my

postman post person, ca male carrier.

872

:

You are interesting to me.

873

:

There is so much.

874

:

There is something super

interesting behind those eyes.

875

:

If I were to get curious, if I were to

open up, if I were to focus my energy

876

:

on this, but that would require, if

we go back to the couple relationship

877

:

that would require me letting go of

some stories that would require me

878

:

being able to let go of my thoughts

that would require me to get present,

879

:

that would be required me to engage in

intimacy and the discomfort of that.

880

:

Or engage in change.

881

:

That's wise effort.

882

:

So you can put wise effort

in your relationships.

883

:

You can do the same thing

with your exercise program.

884

:

I'm like really into movement.

885

:

I'm into plants, I'm into

movement, I'm into people.

886

:

So movement, same thing.

887

:

You're been doing the same ridiculous

weight routine or walking the same

888

:

path, or on the same stair master at

the boring gym for X number of years.

889

:

What if you got curious?

890

:

Like what is my movement genius?

891

:

When I was a kid, how

did I, how did I move?

892

:

Did I roll down?

893

:

Was I the kid that rolled down

from the really steep hill?

894

:

Was I a kid that was out on a bike

or was the kid that was picking

895

:

flowers or was I the kid like that?

896

:

It was dancing.

897

:

And you get curious.

898

:

You open up to your mind the possibility

you could do something different

899

:

here that's more aligned with your

values, but also uses your genius.

900

:

And then you focus your energy there.

901

:

You try new things.

902

:

So this method.

903

:

Wise effort that I've developed in this

book applies to so many different domains.

904

:

I'm doing it with therapists now, or

I'm helping therapists like get out

905

:

of wearing turtle Nhat sweaters and

sitting on a couch for 50 minutes

906

:

because that it's all changing.

907

:

Folks back to groundlessness.

908

:

It is all changing and

unless you learn how.

909

:

To engage, you know, your energy with

wise effort, you will get stuck and

910

:

stagnant, or you'll be putting a lot of

energy into things like addictions that

911

:

completely drain you of your life force.

912

:

And there's, there's a

force there that we need.

913

:

We need every, every human on this planet

that's here to be contributing their

914

:

beautiful life force to our collective.

915

:

Good.

916

:

Speaking of change, you mentioned

917

:

Carl Erik Fisher: AI before, you said

like, I could go into chat, I could

918

:

come up with a list of values, and

then that combined with what you just

919

:

said, makes me wonder, are you, are

you involved with like technological

920

:

innovations in psychotherapy?

921

:

Are you doing AI based stuff

922

:

Diana Hill: A little

bit behind the scenes?

923

:

So.

924

:

Steve Hayes, who's the founder of act,

the other founder of act, the main founder

925

:

of act, I don't know, he's really gotten

into AI and I'm part of his app, which

926

:

is called Cycl Flex and he'll love that.

927

:

I'm plugging it for you right now.

928

:

I don't get paid for Cycl Flex, but

I'm part of that app and, and what

929

:

Steve is looking at in terms of

the future that's coming up in, in

930

:

therapy is, and it's already coming,

like I already have clients that

931

:

are doing this, but is basically.

932

:

The potential of therapists

uploading their transcripts

933

:

from a session and using.

934

:

AI to help give the therapist feedback

on their intervention, but then also

935

:

potentially having, like making a little

mini, like a little mini Diana that

936

:

then the client can interact with to

outside of session, between sessions.

937

:

There's also, AI is definitely being

used in terms of we're collecting

938

:

ecological data, so we're take,

we're collecting data on people.

939

:

Daily data on people through the

app and then using that to look

940

:

at what are the, the primary.

941

:

Processes, the primary mechanisms that are

contributing to this individual struggle.

942

:

So then I, as a therapist can go in

and target that specific thing because,

943

:

you know, the way that sort of therapy

is thought of is now is like we, we

944

:

think we have just like these big

interventions that we can just plop onto

945

:

people and based on their diagnosis.

946

:

So like, oh, you have a, you, you

struggle with addiction, therefore

947

:

you should do some mindfulness.

948

:

And what they're finding.

949

:

In terms of the analyses of at the

individual level, like when we move

950

:

out of the these big normative analyses

and we actually look at the individual.

951

:

For some individuals mindfulness

is not the thing that is

952

:

gonna be helpful for them.

953

:

For some individuals, self-compassion

is not the thing, and for some

954

:

individuals, they need to be doing.

955

:

X, Y, and Z.

956

:

So once we start colliding, collecting

more individual data and we use the

957

:

power of AI to help analyze that and

to give feedback, then we can get much

958

:

more individualized, much more specific,

much more targeted interventions.

959

:

And it's here, it's

already, it's happening.

960

:

It, the dissemination, the, the sort of

the interface to make it user friendly

961

:

and to get therapists on board is, we're

still kind of a little bit out from that.

962

:

Carl Erik Fisher: No,

I'm interested in that.

963

:

I think that there's some real potential

benefits to applications like that.

964

:

I do have a lot of concerns too.

965

:

I actually wrote a academic

piece on this pretty recently.

966

:

Mm-hmm.

967

:

Called the Real Ethical Problems

with AI for Clinical Psychiatry.

968

:

And I, I wrote a, a brief summary

of it on my substack too, but.

969

:

First off, I think the disclosure and

privacy issues are really complicated.

970

:

Like even state by state.

971

:

I know California recently issued

a thing about disclosing whether or

972

:

not you use ai, how many people are

actually keeping up to date on that.

973

:

Like it's very easy for,

for just individuals to run

974

:

afoul of using these tools.

975

:

But I also like, at a deeper level, I

guess one of my bigger worries, which

976

:

I haven't fully, it's not fully baked.

977

:

So I'm just speaking off the cuff

with you right now, Diana, but like,

978

:

and you might be interested in this

with your background in yoga and

979

:

otherwise, like I feel like there's

an experiential turn in psychotherapy,

980

:

which is largely useful, where people

are getting back to sort of a felt

981

:

sense all the way back to like Glin and

focusing like back to like a felt sense.

982

:

Internal exploration.

983

:

We see that in act, but also IFS also

in like third wave cognitive therapies

984

:

and I worry about the potential for

a certainly AI delivered applications

985

:

to kind of put people into a very

cognitive kind of figure it out kind of

986

:

mode rather than an experiential mode.

987

:

I think that's a definite risk.

988

:

And then I also worry even.

989

:

Even within the therapeutic interaction,

like if I'm a therapist and if I have

990

:

a little like sidekick next to the

screen where I'm doing video therapy

991

:

and it's like telling me, Hey, maybe

you should act, ask her about her

992

:

mother like that, that seems to me

like takes me outta the human contact.

993

:

And even if that was asynchronous

and I got like a little brief

994

:

before or after a session.

995

:

I worry just for me as a therapist, I

worry that it takes me out of the mode.

996

:

It takes me out of like a being mode.

997

:

You know what I mean?

998

:

And I don't know how to

correct for that danger.

999

:

Diana Hill: Yeah.

:

00:51:05,448 --> 00:51:06,498

So here's the question.

:

00:51:06,588 --> 00:51:08,448

'cause I, I absolutely agree with you.

:

00:51:08,508 --> 00:51:10,883

Steve would say, we are making, we are a.

:

00:51:11,128 --> 00:51:13,768

Currently developing another species

:

00:51:13,773 --> 00:51:14,813

Carl Erik Fisher: like the AI as species.

:

00:51:14,968 --> 00:51:16,108

I saw he posted about that.

:

00:51:16,168 --> 00:51:16,228

Yeah.

:

00:51:16,228 --> 00:51:17,488

Diana Hill: AI is a species, right?

:

00:51:17,488 --> 00:51:20,638

And so, and these species are

either gonna be collaborators or

:

00:51:20,638 --> 00:51:21,958

not, and we gotta figure that out.

:

00:51:22,408 --> 00:51:23,638

I fully agree with you.

:

00:51:23,638 --> 00:51:28,198

So in the exercise realm, the Apple

watch you go, I was like going for a

:

00:51:28,198 --> 00:51:32,008

hike with someone and they're like,

oh, I didn't turn on my Apple Watch.

:

00:51:33,238 --> 00:51:35,728

I, oh, okay, well I'll just

have to like add those later.

:

00:51:36,178 --> 00:51:38,518

And I'm like, wait a minute,

I'm, I'm in the hike.

:

00:51:38,668 --> 00:51:40,408

I'm not thinking about.

:

00:51:40,768 --> 00:51:44,938

The steps that I'm gonna get

on this, I'm in the hike.

:

00:51:45,088 --> 00:51:48,028

And, and, and when we turn around

isn't based on what my watch

:

00:51:48,028 --> 00:51:49,738

tells me to turn around, right?

:

00:51:49,738 --> 00:51:54,178

And how much it dis embodies us,

how much these technologies take

:

00:51:54,178 --> 00:51:56,248

us out of this embodied presence.

:

00:51:56,248 --> 00:52:00,688

And so we could say that on our hike,

we could say that with our eating,

:

00:52:00,808 --> 00:52:05,578

how disembodied and how disconnected

we have gotten from the food system.

:

00:52:06,383 --> 00:52:10,433

Every, at our family dinner, we read

the five Contemplations for eating.

:

00:52:10,433 --> 00:52:16,313

This Food is a gift from the universe,

and we talk about where it came from.

:

00:52:16,343 --> 00:52:19,013

Not only where we came from, from like

the soil and the sun, but where it

:

00:52:19,013 --> 00:52:22,403

came from, from the people that made

it and the love that we've put into it.

:

00:52:22,403 --> 00:52:24,713

And may we eat this food in a way that is.

:

00:52:25,323 --> 00:52:27,513

Giving respect, right?

:

00:52:27,513 --> 00:52:33,123

So put a calorie count on the Starbucks

Frappuccino, and you're a little bit

:

00:52:33,123 --> 00:52:37,833

disconnected from this whole gift of

the universe of food, which makes you

:

00:52:37,833 --> 00:52:40,443

disconnected from the gift of our planet.

:

00:52:40,653 --> 00:52:44,223

So there's a, I, I mean, I

really do believe that our,

:

00:52:44,283 --> 00:52:47,553

our embodiment is part of our.

:

00:52:48,088 --> 00:52:55,048

Experience of connection to living

beings and our living planet, and

:

00:52:55,048 --> 00:52:56,428

that includes in the therapy space.

:

00:52:56,428 --> 00:53:00,568

So my favorite thing to do is take

people on retreats where I have no

:

00:53:00,568 --> 00:53:04,768

slides, no handouts, no nothing.

:

00:53:04,768 --> 00:53:08,548

We're swimming in the ocean at five

o'clock at night at sunset together.

:

00:53:08,928 --> 00:53:13,008

And we're learning act together and

we're practicing wise effort together.

:

00:53:13,338 --> 00:53:17,178

And it will, that week with me, and

whether it's in Costa Rica or wherever

:

00:53:17,178 --> 00:53:21,948

else we go, probably has a bigger

impact on these people's lives than

:

00:53:21,948 --> 00:53:23,928

a whole year of 50 minute sessions.

:

00:53:24,438 --> 00:53:26,778

With me and with the, not even with me.

:

00:53:26,778 --> 00:53:27,498

It's with each other.

:

00:53:27,498 --> 00:53:28,278

It's with our group.

:

00:53:28,308 --> 00:53:28,668

Right.

:

00:53:28,848 --> 00:53:31,128

So that, how do you.

:

00:53:31,593 --> 00:53:35,313

How do you put that in a little

avatar of Diana on a phone?

:

00:53:35,403 --> 00:53:36,723

I don't think so.

:

00:53:36,783 --> 00:53:40,473

Or an a or, or a Zoom screen

with like lines of people on 'em.

:

00:53:40,473 --> 00:53:42,303

And now we're all part

of a group together.

:

00:53:42,543 --> 00:53:43,653

Something is getting lost.

:

00:53:43,653 --> 00:53:46,593

But I also think there's some people,

just like people who have, I do

:

00:53:46,593 --> 00:53:50,973

these, you're in a, a conference

room for three days with 500 people

:

00:53:50,973 --> 00:53:53,523

at tables inside with no windows.

:

00:53:53,613 --> 00:53:58,773

And I'm dying from like, not really

dying, but inside I'm like, this is.

:

00:53:58,973 --> 00:54:05,033

Like I'm unwell from like deprivation

from nature because I grew up with that.

:

00:54:05,123 --> 00:54:06,803

It feels I need it, right?

:

00:54:06,923 --> 00:54:11,243

If you grew up with an iPad in your

shopping cart while your mom was pushing

:

00:54:11,243 --> 00:54:15,263

you around, you may, I don't know,

how is that gonna change your brain?

:

00:54:15,263 --> 00:54:20,513

You may be okay with the avatar therapist,

like you may not have made those neural

:

00:54:20,513 --> 00:54:24,353

connections of needing that type of.

:

00:54:24,928 --> 00:54:26,548

Human interaction in that way?

:

00:54:26,728 --> 00:54:28,258

Carl Erik Fisher: Well,

we'll just have to see.

:

00:54:28,348 --> 00:54:32,398

I mean, what's definitely true is

that it's happening and it's, it's

:

00:54:32,398 --> 00:54:35,788

open season, both in the therapeutic

space and otherwise how people

:

00:54:35,788 --> 00:54:37,288

interact with these technologies.

:

00:54:37,693 --> 00:54:41,203

And I don't know, I have a lot of

concerns, but I think as long as

:

00:54:41,203 --> 00:54:45,223

we make space for it, live through

your retreats is a great example.

:

00:54:45,223 --> 00:54:47,953

If nothing else, people

realize, ah, I'm burnt out.

:

00:54:47,953 --> 00:54:48,913

I need to go on a retreat.

:

00:54:48,913 --> 00:54:51,463

And then they go on a retreat and

hopefully it's a course correct.

:

00:54:51,793 --> 00:54:53,443

And it's not just a nice experience.

:

00:54:53,628 --> 00:54:57,463

It, it also gives some insight

and some clarity such that

:

00:54:57,463 --> 00:54:58,633

people have a new direction.

:

00:54:59,038 --> 00:54:59,968

Tools to practice.

:

00:55:00,088 --> 00:55:00,928

Diana Hill: It's a wave.

:

00:55:00,928 --> 00:55:02,038

I mean, AI is a wave.

:

00:55:02,043 --> 00:55:03,238

You, you gotta learn how to surf it.

:

00:55:03,388 --> 00:55:04,558

That's the deal with waves.

:

00:55:04,558 --> 00:55:06,628

Like you can't fight a wave, you know?

:

00:55:06,628 --> 00:55:08,068

So learn how to surf it.

:

00:55:08,158 --> 00:55:09,238

Be a good surfer.

:

00:55:09,328 --> 00:55:12,148

Look at the other surfers that

are doing a better job than you at

:

00:55:12,148 --> 00:55:16,768

surfing, but you also are in charge

of your, of your board on that wave.

:

00:55:17,138 --> 00:55:21,878

You can't stop the wave, but you

can control your board and how, how

:

00:55:21,878 --> 00:55:23,258

you're surfing, how you're on it.

:

00:55:23,678 --> 00:55:25,658

And I, at least that's

what I'm trying to do.

:

00:55:25,658 --> 00:55:26,918

I know very little about.

:

00:55:26,918 --> 00:55:31,088

I'm like, not a super technologically

savvy person scares me.

:

00:55:31,418 --> 00:55:32,138

I'm on board with you.

:

00:55:32,138 --> 00:55:34,998

Like I have so many fears about it and

that's why I'm staying really close to it.

:

00:55:34,998 --> 00:55:35,223

Yeah.

:

00:55:35,708 --> 00:55:37,178

Carl Erik Fisher: And with

with other people, you're not

:

00:55:37,178 --> 00:55:39,158

out there surfing by yourself.

:

00:55:39,188 --> 00:55:43,598

Don't stress at a scary looking break

without anyone in sight, which is also

:

00:55:43,598 --> 00:55:45,308

a very, very good principle in surfing.

:

00:55:45,963 --> 00:55:46,323

Diana Hill: Yeah.

:

00:55:46,623 --> 00:55:48,633

And then you gotta look behind it

all and see like who's making the

:

00:55:48,633 --> 00:55:51,513

waves, who, who's behind this wave

machine and be concerned about that.

:

00:55:52,113 --> 00:55:52,773

Carl Erik Fisher: That's true.

:

00:55:52,773 --> 00:55:55,713

That's the, yeah, that is

where the analogy breaks down.

:

00:55:55,758 --> 00:55:55,918

Totally.

:

00:55:55,983 --> 00:55:56,523

That's where it breaks

:

00:55:56,523 --> 00:55:56,823

Diana Hill: down.

:

00:55:57,063 --> 00:55:57,363

No, that's,

:

00:55:57,363 --> 00:55:58,023

Carl Erik Fisher: that's wild.

:

00:55:58,413 --> 00:55:59,073

That is wild.

:

00:55:59,463 --> 00:56:03,363

Well, Diana, I really appreciate the

time getting to know you a little

:

00:56:03,363 --> 00:56:06,753

better and talking about this book and

you're sharing your personal history.

:

00:56:06,753 --> 00:56:09,273

I really think it'll help a lot of folks.

:

00:56:09,953 --> 00:56:14,003

I think people are always on the lookout

for ways of making sense of these huge

:

00:56:14,303 --> 00:56:18,173

heady topics, and I think you've written

something that is really high integrity,

:

00:56:18,173 --> 00:56:20,813

but also tangible like is graspable.

:

00:56:21,203 --> 00:56:24,000

It's useful and I'm really

grateful for your work.

:

00:56:27,994 --> 00:56:27,995

Dr. Diana Hill:

:

00:56:27,995 --> 00:56:31,894

Thank you so much for listening to this

episode of the Wise Effort podcast.

:

00:56:32,074 --> 00:56:35,224

Wise effort is about you taking

your energy and putting it in the

:

00:56:35,224 --> 00:56:36,784

places that matter most to you.

:

00:56:37,264 --> 00:56:41,344

And when you do so you'll get to savor

the good of your life along the way.

:

00:56:42,484 --> 00:56:44,554

If you would like to become

a member of the Wise Effort

:

00:56:44,554 --> 00:56:47,434

podcast, go to wise effort.com.

:

00:56:48,004 --> 00:56:50,644

And if you liked this episode and it

would be helpful to somebody, please

:

00:56:50,644 --> 00:56:52,604

leave a review over at Podchaser.

:

00:56:52,674 --> 00:56:56,484

I would like to thank my team, my

partner, in all things, including

:

00:56:56,484 --> 00:56:58,374

the producer of this podcast, Craig.

:

00:56:58,914 --> 00:57:00,864

Ashley Hiatt, the podcast manager.

:

00:57:01,134 --> 00:57:03,934

And thank you to Ben Gould at

Bell and Branch for our music.

:

00:57:04,564 --> 00:57:07,744

This podcast is for informational

and entertainment purposes only.

:

00:57:07,794 --> 00:57:10,674

And it's not meant to be a substitute

for mental health treatments.

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