Dear Listener, are you a late-in-life virgin feeling broken, behind, or like something is fundamentally wrong with you?

Do you avoid dating altogether because you dread the moment you'd have to disclose your virginity?

If virgin shame is keeping you stuck in isolation — and making partnered sex that much less likely — you’re in the right place.

In this episode, we welcome back Relationship Center psychotherapist and sex therapist Cat Fillmore to explore how to date as a virgin with confidence, self-compassion, and hope.

Cat starts by reframing the conversation entirely: What does "virgin" even mean, and who decided? She challenges the narrow definition most of us inherited and invites us toward something more liberating.

From there, we dive into practical late bloomer dating advice. Cat explains why the skills that make for great sex aren't actually about experience—and how you can start developing them right now. She shares a "yes, no, maybe" framework for building confidence with boundaries, an essential part of pleasurable sex.

We also tackle the big question: should I tell them I'm a virgin, and when? Cat explains how to recognize when someone has earned the honor of your vulnerability—and what to look for before you share.

Finally, Cat offers a reality check for anyone struggling to overcome virgin stigma. Spoiler alert: The data might surprise you—you're far from alone as a late bloomer.

If shame has been keeping you on the sidelines, this episode offers a compassionate, empowering path forward.

Key Takeaways

00:00 Intro

01:30 What does it even mean to be a virgin?

07:38 How do I date as a late-in-life virgin?

18:31 Should I tell my date I'm a virgin—and when?

30:14 How do I stop feeling broken or behind as a late-in-life virgin?

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team (including Cat!), go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

From the relationship center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor

2

and dating coach, Jessica Engle, and

this is I Love You too, a show about

3

how to create and sustain meaningful

4

relationships.

5

Josh: I'm dating and

relationship coach Josh Van Vite.

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On today's episode, we're gonna talk

about dating as a latent life virgin.

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We're so happy you're here.

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And please remember that this show is

not a substitute for a relationship with

9

a licensed mental health professional.

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Hello and welcome dear listener.

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We are joined today by our special guest,

Cat Fillmore, who is a psychotherapist,

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sex therapist, and dating coach

here at the Relationship Center.

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You may have heard her on a previous

episode talking about relationship OCD.

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She specializes in helping bipoc and

interracial couples trauma survivors,

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and folks who feel stuck in the same

dating patterns, build healthier,

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more connected relationships.

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And today.

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She is joining us to talk about,

what it's like and how to go about

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dating as a late in life virgin.

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Jessica: Welcome Cat.

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We're so excited to chat with you.

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Cat Fillmore: I am excited to be here.

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Jessica: before we get started, if you

love our show, dear listener, will you

24

please share an episode with a friend.

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By doing so, you'll help us

help more sweet humans like you.

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So thank you in advance.

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Okay, let's dive in.

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Josh: So let's start Cat, with what

does it even mean to be a virgin?

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'cause that's such a loaded term.

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Cat Fillmore: Yeah, absolutely.

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Well, firstly, I just wanna

frame the whole conversation

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through the lens of liberation.

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I'm always in the business of wanting

to move farther and farther away from

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systems that oppress us toward, belief

systems and structures that help us

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to live freer more meaningful lives.

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That requires that we think about,

the systems that were in place that

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basically made, sex to be defined

as penetrative sex when we know that

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there are a lot of things, that are

encapsulated in this term of sex.

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And essentially, if we

take that very limited.

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Definition, we're basically erasing

a whole swath of the LGBTQ plus

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community, and it is also very ableist.

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And so the reality is that I first wanna

say there's a lot of things that are.

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Sex.

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Right?

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And how you de define that for

you is actually what's going

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to be the most important.

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And I also like to talk about the

conversation of sex positivity because

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I think so often people think that

sex positivity means that we should be

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cheering people on as they have as much

good sex as they could possibly have.

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Right?

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When in actuality, I think the term of.

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Sex neutrality allows us to say that

we should actually be supporting people

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in having sex or not having sex in the

way that feels healthiest for them.

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So when we even think of an asexual

individual, we wanna support them in what

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feels liberating for them, which means

setting boundaries and norms around.

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Potentially not having sexual

experiences that feel forced

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because of societal stigma.

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And I also wanna honor that there's

a lot of different reasons why people

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choose to have sex the way they're

having sex or choose not to have sex.

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Um, and so there are cultural

dynamics, religious dynamics,

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orientational reasons, and so.

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Really what liberation means

to me is supporting people in

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finding the healthy path for them.

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So that is going to be the framework

that underlies this whole conversation.

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So what does it mean to be a virgin?

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It depends.

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How do you wanna define it and what

does that language mean to you?

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Is that even helpful or

effective language for you?

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So that said, I understand

in order to be more specific.

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We're probably going to be talking to

the people on this podcast who are either

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pretty sad about being a virgin or for

people who have actually chosen that path

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for a really clear reason that aligns with

their identity and values, but that're

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potentially dealing with the stress

of the stigma that that title holds.

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Josh: I think that's such a

beautiful, context within which

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to hold this conversation.

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'cause you're so right.

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There's so much pressure in society and

like you're saying even in like kind of

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quote unquote sex positivity of like.

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You're supposed to be

having a lot of great sex.

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That is what, like that's the pinnacle.

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And if you're just having like

a lot of great sex all the time,

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that's what is supposed to be good.

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And that doesn't leave really

any room for people to.

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Want sex or not want sex and

really create a relationship with

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their sexuality and their erotic

life that is very life-giving.

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I can just even feel my own nervous

and relaxed a little bit as you're like

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bringing this very spacious context.

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Jessica: Mm-hmm.

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Cat Fillmore: So I am happy to then jump

into the idea of when someone's longing

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to no longer have this title of Virgin.

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I wanna affirm how isolating and difficult

and frustrating and sad that can be.

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And I wanna just say, because my

favorite thing is to instill hope

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that there is nothing wrong with

hoping for and longing for connection.

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So it's finding that balance where

we can talk about this in a way that.

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Gives space to be free and liberated,

but also acknowledges very real

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hurt and pain and disconnection

that exists for some people.

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Jessica: I'm just reflecting Cat

on what you're saying and thinking

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about a lot of the clients that we've

worked with, and along the lines

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of instilling hope, I mean, we have

worked with the two kind of groups that

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you're speaking to today quite a bit.

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The latent life virgins who really.

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That's not what they wanted.

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That's not what they've chosen

per se, but it's just happened

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and there's a lot of pain.

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And then the second group,

people who've chosen, not to have

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sex based on their values, and

we've just seen so many of them.

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Really find their way into relationships

where, you know, maybe they lose

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their virginity, maybe they don't,

but there is so much more peace with,

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Josh: what

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Jessica: their status is.

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And it's such a joyful thing to

talk with a client, particularly

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thinking of the latent light versions

who, end up losing their virginity.

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And, there's just so much joy to share

with them around, crossing that threshold.

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Yeah, so just kind of basking in

some of my memories of some of the

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clients that we've worked with.

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As you're sharing.

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Cat Fillmore: I love that.

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So, let's talk a bit about how

to date as a late in life virgin.

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Sex is mostly communication

and being embodied.

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That's really what sex is in so

many cases, and so regardless of

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what sexual experiences you have

or have not had, you can work on

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communication and being embodied.

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You're not just qualified from

that no matter who you are.

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And so a lot of times what we're

seeing is people who are afraid to date

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because they're afraid of having to

disclose their status as a virgin, so

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they're not engaging in certain dating

behaviors because they don't want to

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have to share this thing that feels

really shameful and embarrassing for

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them, or because they're fearful of the

rejection that they will experience.

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But it becomes a bit of a chicken and

an egg situation because if you're

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not putting yourself in situations

where you're forming connections,

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sex is actually extremely unlikely.

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So it perpetuates itself.

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So much of this is just starting

to put yourself out there and not

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putting the cart before the horse.

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People are so fixated on that moment of

what it's going to feel like to have to

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disclose their status as a virgin to.

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Appear that they're not actually

thinking about the fact that they

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might be really excited to share

that vulnerability with someone.

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Once they've made a connection strong

enough with someone they trust, it

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shifts that perspective a little when

we're seeing this in a much more.

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Connected interpersonal way than

most people are imagining it.

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Some people have had really negative

experiences with friends or family

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or partners, and so they're assuming

those are the only experiences

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that they're going to have.

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When you put yourself out there to have

more experiences with people, the reality

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is you have a higher chance of finding

people who are going to embrace you

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exactly as you are and see something as a

part of your whole story as a whole human

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being, rather than a flawed identity.

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And so it really is tough to take

that first step, but dating is part

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of how these connections happen.

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And working through that anxiety

while dating is really crucial.

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Not jumping to what it's gonna be

like on date four, but can we get

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to the point where you're present

and embodied on a first date?

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Can we get to the point where you're

able to communicate in healthy ways?

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On a first date, you're gonna be

significantly closer to that connection.

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That happens when two people decide

to have a sexual experience together.

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Two or more people, I should say,

when you're able to just start making

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connections in general and communicating

in general on different things.

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So how does someone who's

a late in life Virgin date?

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Well, first of all, they date,

gotta put themselves out there.

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Jessica: Mm-hmm.

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Beautiful.

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I love that.

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So there is a need here to, like you said,

not put the cart before the horse and

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to take small risks, baby steps, working

up towards sharing about your status

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with somebody in a caring relationship.

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But a lot of late in life, virgins,

all they imagine is sharing that

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piece of information with somebody

who's maybe not a safe person.

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And so of course they're not engaging.

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With people.

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So finding small, manageable risks that

won't overwhelm them so they can start to

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build, their comfort zone, their tolerance

for discomfort is a big part of it.

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Is that right?

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Cat Fillmore: That's totally right.

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Great summary.

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And so for a lot of people,

they're walking into these

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interactions with this fallacy that.

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More sex means more skill.

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And the truth is, that is not the case.

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Coming back to the idea of communication

and embodiment, the reality is a lot of

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people having a lot of sex are not great

at communicating with their partner,

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with topics like, does this feel good?

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Is that the right amount of pressure?

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More of this, less of that, right?

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And so the reality is that.

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I often tell people if we can't talk about

sex, we're probably not ready to have sex.

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Because I actually find in

people of all experiences, a

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lot of issues around boundaries.

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And I think it's crucial before

people even start engaging in sexual

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acts that they know how to say

yes and they know how to say no.

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And once again, this is

something you can work on.

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Even before you start having sex, the

reality is it is crucial for us to

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be able to check in with our bodies

about what feels good, what feels

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liberating, what feels consensual.

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And what doesn't.

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And so one of my favorite tips was

actually when it comes to sex, there's

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yes no, and maybe, and if you're a maybe

convert it to a no every time because

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it's very rare that people regret a no

because you can always change it to.

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Can we take a little bit more

time and cuddle, and then maybe 15

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minutes later you do wanna have sex?

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Great.

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No harm, no foul.

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I've talked to far too many people

who unfortunately converted maybes

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to yeses, when they did not.

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Want to, and that doesn't tend

to go well, and it does tend to

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leave people with a lot of regret.

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The other thing I would say is if

you're a person who's receiving

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what seems like a maybe from a

partner, convert it to a no for them.

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Hey, I'm noticing that you

seem a little bit apprehensive.

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I'm here.

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I'm not going anywhere.

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I want us to work through this together

and we don't have to do this right now.

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So that communication piece is

crucial and I find that a lot of

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people need a lot more breathing room

than they realize to develop that.

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And I think dating is an

excellent space to work.

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Those.

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Yes, no, maybe convert

the maybe to no muscles

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Josh: And it's so much easier,

I think to practice that.

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Outside of sex to start with.

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Cat Fillmore: Yes.

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Josh: right.

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If we're talking about skill development,

you don't do the hardest thing.

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First you start with let me

practice this in a smaller way.

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I love how you're naming, there's so many

ways that we can practice that in dating.

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You know, anywhere in life really.

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But let's talk about dating

right now in smaller ways.

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Like, oh, am I yes to another

date with this person?

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Am I Yes to holding

hands with this person?

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Just like all these little places where

it can bring up some of the anxiety, but

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not so much that it's really hard to even

tap into, what you want or don't want

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in that moment and how to express that.

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Jessica: Yeah.

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It also occurs to me, I'm thinking

about some of the late in life

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versions that I've worked with who.

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Would hear this tip and be excited by

it, but be like saying yes, no, maybe

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on a date sounds terrifying to me.

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I don't feel like I can even get there.

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And you know, I'm just thinking

about swiping and how that's

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inherently a yes or no practice.

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Cat Fillmore: Yeah.

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Jessica: Um.

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And I'm also just thinking about,

you know, therapy in, uh, I'm a

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drama therapist by training in

one of our, core exercises is,

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simply repeating back and forth.

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Yes and no.

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And then switching roles and

you get to then talk at the end

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about what it brought up for you.

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So there are safe ways even outside

of dating to practice these skills.

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If yes, no, maybe in a dating

context still feels like too far.

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Cat Fillmore: Absolutely.

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I love that, Jessica.

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And to address the embodiment

piece, I honestly think that

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just societally we aren't great.

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At being present with our bodies

right now, there's so much technology,

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there's so much instant gratification

that it's actually really hard

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to slow down and be present.

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So take a dance class,

right, or get a massage.

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Or stretch or start a breathing practice.

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These things are not disconnected from

sex and actually for people who've had

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a lot of sex but then have either had a

major change in their body or differing

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relationship dynamics have come up

interpersonally with their partner.

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These are embodiment practices

that we recommend and encourage.

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Even for people who've had sex, right?

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These are things that we know work.

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They're researched and studied, they're

helpful, and we can also potentially

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incorporate self pleasure as a practice

for people who want to begin to explore

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what feels good in my body, what doesn't

feel good in my body, what brings me

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pleasure, what doesn't bring me pleasure.

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And once again, if that in of itself

brings up tons of anxiety for you, I think

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that's something that you can very much

work through in therapy and could be a

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potential first step before we even jump

into the idea of partnered sex, right?

272

Because the reality is being present

with our body is crucial to not

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having completely dissociated,

often unpleasurable partnered sex.

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Josh: Yeah, it's hard to get

a lot of pleasure from sex

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if you are not in your body.

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So it makes complete sense that finding

ways to get into your body and be

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in your body are really important

part of having sex that you enjoy.

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Cat Fillmore: So how

and when do we disclose

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First of all, status as a virgin

is not a status that has the

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potential to harm the other partner.

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It's very different from a status

that maybe impacts consent in

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the way that status with an STI

or disclosure of age, let's say.

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If what we're seeking is.

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A deep, meaningful, vulnerable connection

with someone we hope to maybe connect

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with in a long-term committed way.

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Then we have to think about the

fact that vulnerability is going

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to be a part of that, which means

talking about our lived experience.

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When we're determining is this

someone I feel safe enough to disclose

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being a virgin to, we can really.

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Check and see how they're responding

to other aspects of vulnerability.

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So if we share other things that are

far less vulnerable with them and

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they make fun of us, for instance,

or minimize or talk over us or make

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light of it, or, or share things that

are actually even actively harmful.

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Well, it's probably not the best

idea to up the ante and share with

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them something really vulnerable.

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Right?

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So my hope is that people recognize

there's a lot of value and

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vulnerability with people who have

demonstrated that they've earned

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the honor of our vulnerability.

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And not everyone deserves the

honor of your vulnerability.

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And so I would say that I can't

think of a reason, especially when

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I think of your pacing podcast.

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I can't think of a reason for

putting it on your dating profile

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or rushing to get it out as fast as

you can in a first date scenario.

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Apart from that maybe being an identity

that you wanna make sure that people are

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aware of straight out the gate because

you have no interest in changing that

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particular identity or orientation.

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It is far more likely that this

is going to come out in an organic

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way once a certain amount of.

310

Openness and vulnerability has

been established in the connection.

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There's not a definitive timeline

for that, but you would want the

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person you're disclosing to, to give

enough cues that they respect you

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enough to hear your whole story.

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Josh: I think that's

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Jessica: Brilliant

316

Josh: wise and, and really points towards,

a little bit of a shifting of almost like

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putting the power over on them of like,

oh, how is this person gonna respond

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when I share this thing that I'm feeling

uncomfortable about and they have kind of

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power over whether it's cool or it's not

cool, or I'm, I'm okay or I'm not okay.

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Versus like, oh no, I'm

evaluating, I'm checking out.

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Are you worth, sharing this thing

that is important to me with, are

322

you a person who is safe enough?

323

Demonstrated that you're interested

and available for my whole self, at

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which point then I might take another

risk and share and invite you into this

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experience, invite you to join me in

this new experience, in a sweet way,

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rather than needing to worry about

how this person is going to respond.

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There may of course, still be anxiety

about how they're gonna respond, no matter

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how many cues of safety they've given

you, but you get to sit in the driver's

329

seat here of when am I gonna share this?

330

Is this person, demonstrating that

they're a safe person to share this with.

331

And I want those folks who are listening

to this what I want for you is that

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you're with somebody who is like,

what a delight that I get to do this

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thing with you for the first time

and help you have this experience

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Cat Fillmore: Yes.

335

Josh: they are so excited that

they get to be a part of your

336

life and your journey in this way.

337

Rather than somebody who's gonna

be critical or judgemental or

338

dismissive or any of that, it's

like, there are people out there

339

who will be like, oh, what an honor.

340

I get to be with you as you cross

this particular threshold in life.

341

And yeah, that's just

what I want for folks.

342

And I just hear that in how you're sharing

about this cat and what you're inviting

343

people to look for is like that person.

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Cat Fillmore: Yeah.

345

And I love how you named the empowerment

piece as well, because I think when

346

we're so focused on someone else's

response that we often forget that we

347

get to respond someone's response, right?

348

So if someone is a jerk after

we disclose that we're a virgin.

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Then we get to decide how much more access

do I want to give this person to me?

350

Do I want to continue to connect

with someone who essentially does

351

not want to see and honor my story

and get to know me and have a

352

shared equitable experience with me?

353

Because honestly, at the end of the day.

354

All good sex must be consensual.

355

Right?

356

Even in the most casual sex,

consent is the crucial building

357

block and communication.

358

And being embodied and

pleasure are big parts of that.

359

And so regardless of how committed

or not committed the relationship

360

would be or what the particular

sex act is, we want to be engaging

361

in that with a person who's like.

362

I wanna hear what you

have to say about this.

363

I want us to be in agreement

about what we're doing here.

364

And ideally, pleasure is gonna

be derived from the experience.

365

And if those things aren't there at

the very base, at the very foundation,

366

then this is not going to be a good.

367

Sexual experience.

368

If people's main goal is to just check

a box and say, okay, I'm no longer a

369

virgin, that's probably not going to lead

to the most positive sexual experiences,

370

and that could actually set someone

back tremendously and their journey

371

to have really good, meaningful sex.

372

Josh: Hmm.

373

Jessica: That's such a good point.

374

I've heard stories and also seen

in media stories of late in life

375

virgins who are like, I just

wanna get it over with, right?

376

Like somehow.

377

Going across that threshold by any

means is the way to sort of exit the

378

pain or discomfort of that identity.

379

But I'm really hearing in what you're

saying that there needs to be consent,

380

there needs to be pleasure, there needs

to be care for that initial experience

381

to really be the start of a long,

very happy life as a sexual being.

382

Cat Fillmore: Yes, it's crucial.

383

Jessica: And Cat, you mentioned that you

can't imagine a scenario where sharing

384

an identity, the identity of being a

latent life Virgin would make a ton

385

of sense because pacing, but the one

that you named was, if the person was

386

not going to change that identity and

they just wanted to make sure people

387

knew upfront and weren't sort of.

388

Uh, entertaining fools, so to speak.

389

I think the other scenario that

I'm wondering about would be.

390

Not when somebody say asexual and choosing

not to have sex, but somebody who's

391

maybe waiting until marriage, I'm just

wondering is, is that a scenario where

392

you might recommend sharing more upfront?

393

So as to filter out people who

are not comfortable with that.

394

I have worked with, for example,

people who identify as Christian and

395

have chosen, chastity until marriage.

396

And it's a whole dynamic, to manage

397

Cat Fillmore: yes it is.

398

So.

399

I know everyone hates the answer of

it depends, profiles, especially when

400

we're thinking app dating have so little

information that I would say you would

401

want that to be such a crucial building

block of who you are, that you want that

402

to be in your elevator pitch, right?

403

With so little information.

404

Do you want that to be

one of the pieces of.

405

Crucial information that people know

right out the gate on your profile,

406

or would that maybe unfold a little

bit farther down the line as you're

407

messaging or going on initial dates?

408

I would, I would still hesitate to

encourage someone to do that, but once

409

again, I think that that information

might come sooner than later and.

410

What, because I work with people

with ROCD and people might be

411

very into the morality of that.

412

Well, Cat, wouldn't it be

misleading to go on a date?

413

I mean, I think it's very presumptuous

for someone to assume because they

414

go on one date with you, that you're

definitely going to have sex with them.

415

So I think we can be a little

bit more flexible in saying like.

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I don't think it's dishonest to go on

a date with someone who you're not sure

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you would ever want to have sex with.

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I think that's probably the bulk of what

the most of us are doing when we date.

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I think once again, I wanna come

back to what feels liberating

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and freeing for someone.

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It might feel far more liberating

and freeing to say, I'm not going

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to go on dates with someone unless

they're okay with this identity first.

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In which case then yes,

that's what you'd wanna do.

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Just know that that might mean you might

have fewer even initial interactions.

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And because I do think

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connection is such a crucial part of this

process, as we're taking bigger risks

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toward vulnerability, I do hesitate.

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To encourage anyone to do

anything that's basically going

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to shut off any opportunity for

initial connection of any kind.

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But I'd love to hear your thoughts

on this if you think I'm off base.

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Jessica: Yeah, I don't

think you're off base.

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It's also something that I would very

much hesitate to encourage someone to

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put in their profile with the exception

of instances where I'm working with a

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client who has a very sticky, repeated

pattern of attracting something over and

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over again that doesn't work for them.

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For example.

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Somebody who's waiting until

marriage to have sex, and they're

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repeatedly getting in relationships

with somebody who's pressuring

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them to have sex before marriage.

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Those are the times when we start

to talk about is it worth putting

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your hard line in your profile to

break this pattern, but I'm with

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Cat Fillmore: love that.

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Jessica: I'm with you on like, it's.

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is totally dependent on the person.

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It is totally dependent on the

context and, anything related

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to sexual disclosure, deserves

a lot of care and attention.

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Josh: Beautiful.

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We have just a few minutes left here.

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I'd love to hear your thoughts,

Cat, on, for those folks who feel.

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Maybe broken or behind, or like

there's something wrong with them

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for being a late in life virgin.

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How do you, how do you deal with that?

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Cat Fillmore: Yeah.

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What I would first give is the very data

heavy response, which is millennials.

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We're having sex later and

with fewer partners than the

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generations before them, and that is

exponentially more true with Gen Z.

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People are having less sex,

particularly if we're going along the

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lines of very stereotypical kind of.

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Conservative, traditional

definitions of sex.

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So firstly, you're in really good company.

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There's a lot more people out there.

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The truth is we have a tendency to

either think something is happening

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more than it's actually happening, or

we have a tendency to believe people

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believe the things that we believe.

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If, for instance, my assumption is

everyone is out there having great

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sex by age 20 and you're a loser, if

you're not having great sex, then my

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tendency is to believe that everyone

else believes those things too,

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and it's just simply not the case.

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There's a lot of different lived

experiences and there's a lot

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of different belief systems

out there, and so the truth is.

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When you disclose, I've

actually never had sex.

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Don't be surprised if the person

on the other end says, Hey, me too.

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I haven't ever had sex either.

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Right?

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And would we ever say to someone shame

on you because it took you three decades

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to start having sexual experiences?

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No, never.

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We would never lack that

generosity with other people

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who were sharing these things.

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So can we extend that same

generosity to ourselves?

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There's so many aspects of us and

there's so many things to love

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and know and accept and share.

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And so this one thing doesn't define you.

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And actually the stigma of that defining

you comes from really icky things that you

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can explore throughout history, what being

a virgin means in different contexts.

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And I really encourage people to

explore those things so that they

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can see it in a broader view and say,

wow, it's actually really unfortunate.

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That we've been making so much of this

particular label for so long, and so

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just know that you are more and you

are worthy and it makes sense that

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you long for connection and I wanna

say congratulations and celebrate

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that you're willing to acknowledge to

yourself that there's more experiences

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and connections that you wanna have.

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Josh: That's such a beautiful, view Cat

and very much, the kind of hope that

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I know you bring to folks and that I

experience from you on a regular basis.

495

I think that's a pretty

fantastic place to wrap it up.

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Jessica: I mean, I'd like to

end most days on a cat pep talk.

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Cat Fillmore: I love it.

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Josh: That's all for today.

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You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in

500

this episode@relationshipcenter.com

501

slash podcast.

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Jessica: and if you have a

question or comment, email us at

503

podcast@relationshipcenter.com.

504

We love hearing from you.

505

Josh: you'd like to work with one of the

talented clinicians on our team, including

506

Cat, go to relationship center.com

507

to apply for a free 30

minute consultation.

508

Jessica: You can also sign up

for a monthly email of our best

509

content@relationshipcenter.com

510

slash newsletter.

511

Josh: And if something in this

episode touched you, will you share

512

it with a friend that helps us

reach more sweet humans like you.

513

Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

514

wherever you listen to podcasts, and

be sure to hit subscribe while you're

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there, so you never miss an episode.

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Josh: Until next time, we love you too.

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Bye.

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Cat Fillmore: I just want

people to have good sex.

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'cause that's the thing we're so

fixated on, like having sex that

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like a lot of people are having

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Jessica: Real

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Josh: sex.

523

Yeah.

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Jessica: bad.

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Cat Fillmore: bad sex is

not better than no sex.

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I promise you.

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Josh: Yes.