Join Terry Cook as he dives deep into the learner's perspective on driving lessons with former students Charlotte Parker and Julia Feeric. This episode emphasizes the importance of communication between instructors and learners, highlighting how a strong rapport can significantly enhance the learning experience. Both guests share their insights on what makes a driving instructor effective, from being approachable to creating a positive atmosphere during lessons. They discuss the impact of private practice and the necessity of feeling comfortable enough to express concerns, which is crucial for building confidence behind the wheel. With a blend of personal anecdotes and practical advice, this conversation offers valuable takeaways for both driving instructors and learners alike, all wrapped in a light-hearted and playful tone that keeps things engaging.

I'm joined by two former students as they discuss their experience learning to drive and share some valuable insights from a pupils perspective including:

• The importance of good communication
• Treating people as individuals
• How annoying it is to ask them to vote in awards

Speaking of awards you can vote for the Instructor Podcast in the Intelligent Instructor and GoRoadie awards.

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Terry Cook engages with two former pupils, Charlotte and Julia, to explore the learner's perspective on driving instruction. The conversation unfolds with Charlotte sharing her experience, which oscillated between excitement and anxiety, as she navigated the complexities of learning to drive. She reflects on how initial lessons before the pandemic had set a foundation, but the return to driving after a long hiatus brought about new challenges. Charlotte emphasizes the importance of communication and rapport between instructors and students, highlighting that having open discussions about fears and expectations can alleviate anxiety and foster a more productive learning environment. The discussion also touches on the balance between structured lessons and the need for flexibility, emphasizing that individual learning styles should guide lesson pacing and content.

Julia, on the other hand, adds a rich layer to the dialogue by discussing how her lessons became a highlight of her week, illustrating the positive impact of a supportive instructor. Her insights into the value of instructor-student communication reveal that learners desire a collaborative relationship, where both parties contribute to the learning process. She also underscores the importance of being receptive to a learner's emotional state, as mental readiness plays a crucial role in mastering driving skills. The episode ultimately champions the idea that effective driving instruction is about more than just teaching skills; it’s about building a relationship that empowers students and helps them embrace the journey to becoming confident drivers.

Takeaways:

• Building rapport with students is crucial to creating a positive learning environment.
• Open communication between instructors and learners fosters a sense of collaboration and trust.
• Understanding that each student learns differently is essential for effective teaching strategies.
• Encouraging students to express concerns can mitigate anxiety and enhance their driving experience.
• Providing resources, even if they aren't your own, empowers students to take charge of their learning.
• Acknowledging that not all students will want private practice can ease unnecessary pressure.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

As always, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook, and I'm delighted to be here and even more delighted that you have chosen to listen.

If you have listened before, you'll be familiar with the show.

But if you haven't, if this is your first time checking out the Instructor Instructor Podcast, this is a show where I speak to leaders, experts, innovators and game changers to look at ways that we can improve your driving school and potentially make you an even more awesome driving instructor.

And that's what we're doing today.

I've got a very, very unique episode today.

It's an episode that's been requested a few times over the last 12 months or so and I've always struggled to form it.

I am basically recording today with two of my former pupils.

We've got Charlotte, who actually appeared by back on season three, and we've got Julia, who you can find on another podcast I do called Driving Test Tales.

And they're sharing, sharing their experience of learning to drive and, and offering some advice on potentially what I and what we as instructors can do better and, and what learners find important.

And as I said, this is a.

It's been something that's been requested a few times and I've struggled to form it.

But thankfully these two are awesome and they give some real insights and some real gems of wisdom in this.

So definitely check out both of these interviews and, and technot or some of the stuff they say because it's, it's really fascinating at certain points.

But just before we dive into the show, I do just want to mention that is the awards season and we are not we.

The Instructor Podcast is up for awards with both the Intelligent Instructor and Go ror.

And if you could spare a moment to go and vote for us, I would really appreciate.

Now you can find links for this in the show notes or you can go to the websites for Go Rodi or Intelligent Instructor and you can, can you can vote over there.

Now, if you do not think that the Instructor Podcast deserves an award, that's completely fine.

In which case I would love it if you could tell me why drop me a message, tell me what you don't think is very good about the show and I'll look to improve it.

Alternatively, you can vote.

But what I would really like to do is vote, regardless whether that's voting for me or someone else or whatever.

Show your appreciation to the people that are out there doing this stuff to help you.

I really big, I'm a big believer in that.

And yeah, go and show your appreciation by voting in the awards.

But you know, especially for the instructor podcast, speaking of showing your appreciation, if you hang about to the end of the episode, you will get to hear someone showing their appreciation.

You know full well that I like to give read out one of my reviews at the end of the show and today I've got a negative review for you.

I'm going to read out negative comment that recently appeared on my Facebook post.

So if you hang about to the end, you will see that it's not just, just the, the sunshine and rainbow reviews I read is also a negative one.

So hang about to the end of the show and you can see if you agree with this negative comment.

But for now, well, let's get stuck in.

And now making a second appearance on the instructor podcast, former pupil of mine, Charlotte Parker.

How we doing, Charlotte?

Hi.

I'm so pleased to be back.

I feel like a little mini celebrity.

Mini celebrity?

Well, there's the thing.

You know, it wasn't, but it should have been.

I mean this is slightly surreal in a way when you think about it.

But.

But yeah, no, I do appreciate coming back and this is an episode that has been requested a few times for a while by, by different listeners.

The, the pupil's perspective.

And when I put it out there that I was gonna do it, you were someone that was recommended a couple of times going back to the episode you did on, on social media and I didn' it's actually one of my most downloaded episodes ever.

And until recently when the DVSA come on, it had the highest first day downloads.

So yes, my ego is now massive.

So not a mini celebrity medium celebrity.

I might qualify for jungle next year.

Well, anyone can qualify for jungle.

All right.

But back to what we're doing today.

So we're looking at the, the pupil's perspective and how you found learning.

I'm just going to put a caveat in to begin with which feel free to say anything that you weren't happy with during our lessons.

I will not take offense, but I will edit it.

But I do want to start off with a question of your overall learning experience.

So not necessarily how you found me or the over instructor you had or anything like that, but kind of just your overall experience.

Learning to drive.

How you how you found it.

What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, sure.

So, like most people, when I turned 17, I thought, this is it.

I'm going to learn to drive.

It's going to be great.

I'm going to go to McDonald's and drive to sixth form.

I started learning to drive that year and then I ran out of money.

Basically I had the choice between learning to drive more or going on holiday.

And I'm someone who loves travel, so I chose the holiday.

I think I was finishing uni the following year.

I just decided, okay, now it is time to do this.

So it took me probably a little bit longer than most students do in the overall arc of learning to drive.

I'd built up in my head that it was going to be a really unenjoyable experience and something that you just do it because everyone learns to drive.

And I guess some lessons did feel like that when they're frustrating and you don't feel like you're making progress.

But overall, I really like learning to drive.

And it's still when I drive my own car now, I still think back to how cool is it that I couldn't do this before and now I can.

And I'm so grateful for that.

Like, it's a life skill, isn't it?

Like, I think overall driving turned out.

Learning to drive turned out better than I expected it to be.

Awesome.

I mean, just thinking back to when you first started with me, I think you're one of the people that had like one or two lessons with me before COVID and then covert hit.

In fact, if I remember rightly, were you.

I think you literally paid for like 20 hours, something like that, and then three days later we got told and.

Yeah, so.

But the pleasing thing there was you stayed with me and it would have been easy to say, oh, can I have a refund?

And then because you'd ask for a refund, then when it comes back to lessons, you been like, oh, well, I can't go back to Terry because I've asked for this refund.

But, you know, we.

I think just in those first couple of lessons, we built up a nice little rapport.

So that was all good.

In fact, I will ask you about that briefly.

Obviously you have nothing to compare it to, but how do you think that having Covid impacted your learning to drive?

Not having covered during COVID Yeah, I.

Think it's a difficult one.

Like I said, I was a student in university at the time as well.

So my whole learning ability in terms of learning to drive, studying for a degree completely changed.

There was a lot of soft skills that people learned around that.

So online communication was a big one like before.

I don't know what driving instructors were like, but pretty much all messaging was messaging on Facebook.

Messenger was what we were using.

For me, it was just another thing that you had to overcome.

Like you say, it's.

I don't have anything to compare it to, but I'm Gen Z.

I'm on number four of my lifetime so far.

So, yeah, it's been a wild ride.

Okay.

But one thing that did work in your favor over Covid was were doing private practice.

Now, if I'm rightly, during the first period of COVID you couldn't do private practice, but other bitches.

I can't remember how it all worked out, but you were doing private practice.

So I'm keen to ask you about that.

What were the benefits and possibly negatives that you found to do in private practice?

Yeah, so I bought myself my first car for my 21st birthday.

I'd accepted that no one was going to survive with a car, so I bought myself one.

It's still the car that I drive now.

I absolutely love it.

Private practice for me felt essential.

I was in a really privileged position that I had a job while studying, so I was able to save money alongside that, which I then was able to put obviously into learning to drive, but also private practice too.

My partner was the one who actually sat with me, which was a positive because obviously I've got a good relationship with him, I could communicate with him.

But it's also a negative because he could already drive, but he wasn't that many years removed from learning to drive.

So he still had thoughts in his mind about how he was taught to drive and what I should do in that sense.

But obviously he's not an instructor, so I'd sometimes say, oh, this is how I've been doing it in my practice.

And then he would be like, oh, but you could do it like this.

That's how I did it.

And then that would be two conflicting ways of doing it.

And when you're first learning to drive, that's not always ideal because it's a bit overwhelming for a new driver to be told three different ways to do a hill start when they can't even do one.

No, but I mean, that's interesting because I've not bought it that way before, but you then go on and find your own way of Doing it.

There's kind of an amalgamation of everything you've been taught.

And you know, a lot of the time what goes, goes on in the car.

There isn't necessarily right or wrong, they're just subtle differences.

And thinking back, I think the way that you handled the, the, the private practice I thought was really good because, you know, I can remember getting messages at random times.

You know, I've just been doing this hill start.

Terry got stuck on the hill.

What advice would you give?

Or you describe where you were.

Is that something that you felt was important?

And maybe so that to obviously the instructors that were listening, would you recommend that they keep open for their students so they can communicate about that private practice?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

I think, I don't know if we've mentioned it before we were recording or just as we started, but building up a good rapport with your students in the first few weeks of learning to drive with them is so key for the future relationship because that's what it is essentially like if you're a driving instructor, it's a people skill that you're selling as well.

And knowing that if I was out and I got to a junction and I just had no idea why I'd done it wrong, or someone had beeped me on a roundabout when I thought I was doing it really well, and then being able to message you about that in the evening, sometimes quite late at night, because my private practice was normally after dark when the roads were quieter.

But it was really nice that I knew that you weren't going to be, I don't know, maybe annoyed that I was practicing and not with you, because I suppose there's the risk that you could have seen that as money that you were missing out on or as an instructor, it's money that you're missing out on.

But ultimately it meant that when I came to a lesson and we'd had that chat sort of in between about something that maybe had gone right or gone wrong, we then had like a ground point to start that lesson on.

So it wasn't like we were coming in from exactly where we left off the week before.

There was sort of an up to date talk about what I've been doing in my own car.

I mean, yeah, just on that point, it is theoretically money that I would have gained from you.

But the flip side of that is that you didn't need as many hours for me, so therefore I would be able to take on a different student once you passed.

So from my perspective, there's never an issue around there.

About at practice.

In fact, it makes my job easier because I think we did this a little bit, actually, where we would practice something for the first time, then you would go and practice that in your car.

So then when you came back to lesson, they were like, oh, yeah, you're actually really good at this now.

Right.

Next.

But I think you touched on it then.

That's one of the things we did on lessons as well.

Would.

Would always start off the lesson with a reflection on any driving you've done.

And I think we used to finish with almost like a little plan or an idea of what you might do for the week.

And it was never set in stone because you might not have been able to drive or whatever.

But do you think that was something that benefited you as well, just spending a bit of time on lessons and not feeling like your lesson had to be just driving for the solid two hours or whatever it was?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think I can really understand that if students aren't private, that don't have access to private cars and whatever, that they would probably want to drive for that full two hours just to make sure they're really maximizing every bit of the money that they're spending.

Because learning to drive is expensive.

I get it.

But equally for me, I'm quite a reflective person in my own life and I quite often need to look back on situations to understand.

Okay, I feel really nervous.

For me, it was hill starts.

I've never liked hill start, even in my car.

Now I don't love it.

But for me, hill starts was a big thing, so I always needed to reflect.

Okay, why did that hill start go wrong?

What do I need to do differently?

Even if it's something really minor, Talking about that in the lesson made, firstly, you share your problems.

It's easier for an instructor to help you with them, but also mentally for yourself, you're not building this up as this thing that, okay, I can't do hill starts, so I'm never going to be able to do a hill start.

It's interesting you say that as well, because I can remember on our lessons, you would just be telling me how you struggled with hill starts.

And not just in your car, but in my car.

And then you just would do seven in a row and you just knock them all out Pack.

And it was never that you couldn't do them, it was just that you didn't like them.

Yeah.

And I think that, yeah, that repetition worked for you.

But I think just touching back on the other thing you said there about the reflecting and the talking through stuff.

There are a lot of instructors that are worried that having a discussion about our conversation with a student isn't a good thing.

What would your take on that be?

Because it wasn't just reflecting on your.

The stuff you'd done in private practice.

We would pull up and we'd have conversations about whatever it was we were talking about.

You know, what would your take on that be?

My take on that is that if you're doing like the two hour block lessons with someone, that's a lot of time to be spending in quite a small space.

Like most people learn to drive in relatively small cars and don't know anyone who's learning in a limo.

But you're close to your instructor, like physically.

And if you've not got the ability to talk to each other about, obviously about driving first and formally, but other things that are going on.

I think once, Kerry, you said to me something about that you felt like a bit of a counselor at the wheel as well, which is so true.

Because when you're driving, you do just talk.

So you have to be able to have that relationship.

And for some people, they won't want that, and that's fine.

But for me, I'm a talker.

That's why I'm back.

The podcast episode.

So I really needed to have an instructor that would listen to me and understand what I was saying, but also could just be a nice person and have a chat with.

If it was just about anything random, that was fine with me.

Yeah.

And you mentioned the key point there, that not everyone will want to talk.

So.

And you mentioned before as well about rapport.

So from a student's perspective, how important is it for you that you feel comfortable enough so that if you want to talk, you can, but if you don't want to talk, you don't have to.

You know, you're not under any pressure to behave a certain way.

How important is it that as instructors we make you feel that comfortable?

I think that's so key to the learning journey.

Everybody learns in their own way.

And if as an instructor you've got a preconceived idea of how you're going to do this for every single person, you're going to come up against so many students that just aren't going to fit that mould and you're going to really struggle, I would assume, obviously, it's my opinion, I would assume that you would really struggle to teach a large percentage of people, because not everybody wants to have that same level of conversation.

But I think for me, it was just really beneficial from start to finish that I felt whatever it was that I could talk to you about was there.

And that was pretty much there from the first lesson.

Like, you were quite.

I suppose the word vulnerable feels a bit weird to say that about your driving instructor, but you told me about yourself and things that you were interested in, and I felt that I could do the same.

So things like that you were vegan.

Like that can sometimes for some reason be controversial, which is mental to me.

But.

And so I could talk to you about that because at the time, I was transitioning to being more vegetarian.

So it was nice to kind of have that and just be able to be open with someone that you're spending a lot of time with is really important in life.

And when learning, I guess.

Yeah, cool.

And, yeah, it does still puzzle me why people get offended when I say that I'm vegan, so I'm not making you be vegan.

I'm just saying I don' Eat cows.

It's fine.

You don't have.

You can eat the cow.

I'm not gonna.

But, yeah.

I want to rewind right back, though.

Right back to when you first started lessons or even before you started lessons.

What.

Can you remember what your concerns were or maybe worries were about learning to drive?

Yeah.

So I think right back before I started learning to drive When I was 17, my concern was I need to pass as quickly as possible because I want to drive before my friends can drive.

It's probably quite relatable for a lot of people around that age, but I just remember there were so many people, oh, I learned to drive in 100 hours.

I learned to drive in 60 hours.

And my brother is someone who did actually learn in about five hours, which he's just really naturally gifted at it for some reason.

So I'd already built up in my head that I need to do this and I need to do it quickly.

And I don't know why I was in such a rush.

Clearly I wasn't, because I then chose a holiday over driving.

But when I came back to it a second time, my concerns were more around the actual logistics of driving.

I didn't really know when I needed to change gear.

I didn't really know how to do a hill start.

And I built up this fear of going downhill towards a junction because my previous instructor let me fly through one.

And it was a very scary experience.

So, yeah, I kind of.

In my head, it hadn't.

It.

It shifted a lot from when I First wanted to learn to drive, which was, I need to do this as quickly as possible.

When I came to learn to drive, the time that actually passed was more, I want to be a good driver, and how do I do that and feel safe when driving?

That's.

That's music to the ears of most driving instructors, is that.

But I mean, just on that, a couple of things I want to touch on there.

And I don't want to dwell on this just in case your previous instructor is listening.

Hello.

If he is.

But you mentioned about kind of being like, run through a junction there and how important is it for you?

And I suppose it would be applied to most students to feel safe, to feel like your instructor's got you back and isn't going to let you do anything completely disastrous.

Yeah, I suppose, like, this is sort of the golden thread through the whole episode.

But the communication I had with my first instructor probably wasn't the best.

Mostly on me part, I was rushing.

I wanted to do this as quickly as possible.

So I was just up for being pushed to the maximum of my ability every single lesson.

But my instructor also didn't pick up on the fact when we had taken things too far, not too far in the sense of dangerous.

I'm sure it was always safe.

But some lessons when you're doing a lot of things, that once your brain reaches a capacity that it can't take in anymore, that's it.

And I sort of, with that particular lesson, I'd reached that point where I was like, okay, I'm done now.

I can't take in any more information.

I can't.

Like, I just want to drive back.

Like, I'm done.

And my instructor hadn't picked up on that.

I didn't communicate it.

It came to a junction that then felt unsafe and I didn't feel in control of the car, and that then built up this fear that lasted pretty much four years until I came to drive again.

Less than that.

But yeah.

It wasn't ideal.

Well, no, but it was still there.

And I think that as instructors, I know I'm guilty of this.

Sometimes it's easy to underestimate the way something like that might impact someone that's learning to drive.

Because, you know, to me, that might be an everyday occurrence where a student tries to kill me.

But to you, it isn't as a learner.

So it's an element of sort of almost ptsd.

Because I can remember on our first lesson asking you, what concerns have you got around driving?

And you telling me that I can Remember that story.

So, and you're telling it now, so it's clearly, you know, stuck in your brain.

So I do think it's important that as instructors, I include myself in this.

We, we try to remember that stuff as, as well as you.

But you mentioned some of your other concerns around sort of learning to drive that and I, I appreciate that everyone's concerns are going to be different, but how important do you think it is from your perspective that those concerns are actually discussed either before the lesson or maybe even on the first lesson?

Yeah, I think having had that discussion prior to learning to drive or prior.

Well, I think we were in the car at my very first lesson when we first had that conversation.

And that was really great because it meant that when we came to actually conquering those things, if you like, you could be more hands on with it.

It was more beneficial for you to talk me through exactly what we're doing, when and how rather than sort of letting me figure it out.

Because you knew that this was already a problem in my mind.

So if you left it to me to figure it out, which sometimes was great for some of the things I learned to do, that was the best approach.

But for others I needed that more.

Like hand holding, if you like.

Not that you should hold your students hands, that'd be super weird.

But metaphorically, no, there was no actual hand holding.

Anyone listening?

There was no actual hand holding.

Metaphorical hand holding only.

But yeah, no, I think you're right.

But again, that's just my perspective.

I think I want to ask you another question around instructors.

Now I appreciate this might be tricky for you to answer, but I'd be intrigued by your answer and I will take it personally as well.

Just so you're aware, what advice would you offer to driving instructors who are listening?

Now?

I know that can be very broad and very general, but what advice would you offer to driving instructors?

I think it goes back to the very first conversation you have with that student when it's booking in the lessons.

Try and get to know what it is they want from driving.

Like, are they driving because they're a mum who needs to do the school run?

Are they someone who's learning to drive because they want to commute to work, which is an hour away?

Because those are two different types of driving.

City center driving versus around the town driving.

It's completely different.

One is obviously more of a priority for someone than something else, I guess.

Talk about how you're going to structure private driving.

If that is an option that that student has so Terry and I would discuss what I'd been working on and what I was going to work on.

If you don't even know that a student is going to be doing that, it leaves you a little bit blindsided when they come to the lesson four weeks later and say, oh, I don't need to do this anymore, I've done it in my own class.

That's a pretty difficult conversation to have at that point.

And also I think Kerry's got a lot of values that he really stands for.

And when you work with someone as a student, professionally, whatever that relationship is, your values need to align.

If you have that first lesson with a student and you think I don't agree with the way they've spoken to me, the things they're telling me they want, that's okay.

Tell them that it's okay to say no to a client or potential business deal because you don't feel your values align.

And that kind of works both ways as well.

If you're a student and you don't like the instructor, not on a personal level, professional level, it's okay, that's fine.

Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that.

And I think I want to touch back on the first thing you said there about that, the communication before the lesson.

Because for me personally, that's how I decide if I want to teach someone or not.

Because I want those texts.

Because it's not normally a phone call, it's not only messages.

I want those messages swapped so I can, as you've said, learn why you want to drive and learn what your worries are and, and get a feel for you.

Because that's how I filter out who I work with.

Because I don't want to spend 40, 50, 60 hours in a car with someone who I dislike.

I don't necessarily have to like them, but I don't.

I need to be enjoy delivering that lesson.

And the same would apply obviously for you, for you as a learner.

So I think just on that, because on my first lessons, and I don't think I ever asked you this, so I may not like the answer, but on a, on my first lesson I tend to have quite an in depth chat with students around the, the concerns around lessons going forward and how I work and how I structure them.

I don't know if you can recall that first lesson, but is that something that you were happy having that conversation or were you just kind of rolling your eyes, getting bored or did you appreciate that openness, honesty?

No, I really appreciated that.

Coming up to my first lesson I.

I went to an Aldi car park and practiced a bit of just pulling off so that I didn't feel I was starting from square one again.

Because I had had some previous lessons.

I got a parking ticket for that.

So I don't recommend Aldi is not the place to go and practice that.

But I was able to tell you all the things I'd been up to sort of in my previous lessons the week before, which was getting a parking ticket.

And it meant that going forward, we had more of a structure.

Not that you always need like a this is the four things we're going to do today, but it meant that you kind of knew how my brain worked because I'm much more critical of myself than maybe some people are.

I'm really organized.

And it was important for me that that same structure was true in the lessons.

So I didn't mind having that chat.

It didn't feel like a waste of money, a waste of time.

It felt that we'd had that initial chat.

So the lessons going forwards were more productive as a result.

Yeah, I appreciate that and I'll keep doing it then.

But thinking back to the lessons, at the end of the lesson, I always, and I still do, but ask for feedback.

I will generally say to you guys, is anything I could have done better for you today, anything that would have made you less more enjoyable or more productive or anything like that.

So when someone that you're paying to, whether it's teacher, a driver, whatever the skill may be, says that to you at the end of a lesson and says it sincerely, how does that sort of make you feel?

What impact does that have on you?

I think firstly, it reminds me as a student that my time is valued and that I'm not just, you know, paying the bills like they are.

An instructor that actually cares about what they're doing is great.

If you're passionate about what you're doing, that is always a better position to be in, even if you're in, like a low period.

Like, I know passion is really hard to stick with, but if you continuously show kindness to people, they'll show it back.

So when you ask people sincerely for feedback, you might get an answer that you don't love, but ultimately it makes you a better person and it makes your relationship with that person better going forward.

So I think even if it is a concern and sometimes it's difficult to have, I guess it's more confrontational when you're in a car together and someone asks you that.

But I suppose if your students know they can message you afterwards and they say, oh no, everything was fine.

And they go away and reflect for an hour and think actually really didn't like this part of the lesson.

If they can then message you and tell you that, you know, next time, okay, I'm not going to do it like that.

We'll do it a different way rather than not knowing your student doesn't like that.

Every week you go out and do the same roundabout because you think your student loves it there.

And actually they're thinking, I hate this roundabout.

I don't want to do this.

That's a really niche example.

But it applies to lots of situations that if you know there's a problem, you can deal with it.

If you don't know it's there, it could be a problem.

Although I think you knew, and I think all my students know that if you tell me you don't like something, we're going to do it more.

That was kind of the rule.

But I've tried really hard to stay away from anything remotely self indulgent during this conversation.

But I feel like I need to mention this because you actually brought it up before we started recording.

And I think it's really relevant because just before we started recording, you reminded me of this and I realized I'd stopped doing it.

But it was a little phrase I have at the end of every lesson where I'd finished, and I'd say, okay, any questions, concerned, issues, worries, troubles or problems?

And that was kind of my little sign off phrase.

And I just found it.

I'd not really considered it, but you mentioned it and I'm like, oh, you remember that?

It's weird, the little things that stick with you.

So, yeah, maybe.

Anyone listening get a sign off phrase.

I still need to get one for the Interrupter podcast.

The other thing I wanted to ask you here was, and I'm going to be careful how I phrase this one, but at the minute there are awards, the award season for, for driving instructors, and there's two main ones, Intelligent Instructor and Go Roadie.

And if anyone's a vote for the instructor podcast, feel free.

You know where to find them.

But one of the comments I see a lot online around award season is that we shouldn't be messaging our students or asking students to vote for us.

Now, I messaged you because I no longer teach you because you don't need me because you pass your driving test with flying course.

But I messaged you and the message was something along the lines of, hi, Charlotte, hope you well, I've Been nominated or whatever.

I forget the exact wording, but here's a link for the internal instructor awards.

If you think I had a positive impact, feel free to vote, but please don't feel obliged.

It was something like that sort of a message.

How much did that annoy you?

Me texting you that?

How you know, do you wish I haven't done it?

Did it not bother you?

Yeah.

So I actually work in digital marketing, so I kind of have two brains to apply to this.

I've got my student perspective and then my professional marketer perspective if you like.

From a student perspective, I'm on my phone all the time.

Most people my age group are.

You see one message out of a hundred, you click it and open it.

If you want to interact with it, you do.

Otherwise you don't reply.

Ghosting people, ghosting Generation Z.

My generation is so normal by like it's not going to weigh heavily on my mind that I didn't reply to that person.

I just thought, okay, I didn't reply.

That for me isn't a problem.

As a marketer, think about all the emails you receive from brands asking you to do something, buy something, sign up to something, subscribe to something.

Chances are in 24 hours time you can't name three emails from three brands that you got the day before.

You've not left a lasting enough impression with a single message that forevermore your student is going to think, wow, that was really annoying.

I never want to interact with that company brand driving instructor again.

And I would even go as far to say that Terry sent me that initial message and it was a good time for me to do the I did fill the form out.

I was happy to do it, but I could have quite easily forgotten about it if Terry had sent me another message in a week's time and said, hey, I'm still really like to win this.

I'd really like to hear your thoughts on it and then message me again with a link.

I wouldn't have found that annoying either from a marketing perspective and a student perspective, because I was in the gym when I got that message and I could have just as easily been driving, I could have been cooking dinner.

Like there's so many things that could have been happening that meant that at that moment I opened the message.

So for me, I've opened it, I've read it, it goes away from my notifications, but I've not actioned it.

I would not find it annoying.

And also word of mouth is your strongest form of marketing.

So if you can remind Students to think about their lessons with you.

That's only a positive thing.

Cool.

Yeah.

So anyone listening?

Don't be afraid to ask your students.

And I would also just chuck in there that we all, even me and I generally, like I said before, I work with students that I like.

I don't work with people that I don't enjoy being in a car with.

But even me, I'll get the odd troublesome students.

Should I say maybe don't send it to them.

But I think on the whole, I think I would agree with you.

Okay, cool.

Is there anything else that you would like to touch on and maybe suggest to instructors or.

Or anything like that before we, Before I let you disappear?

Nothing major springs to mind.

I think a big thing that is like we've just talked about so much is that communication skill.

You're not just teaching someone to drive your.

Building a relationship with that person that could go on for over a year.

If in that first lesson it doesn't feel right, you don't get on well.

If you don't put that initial work in to build a relationship, the next year of your life could be quite miserable for two hours or whatever it is you end up doing.

So just take a little bit of time.

Know that every student is going to be different.

And what works for one person doesn't always work for another.

But that's okay.

You can only.

You can only try with people.

You can never be too nice or too kind is my general motto.

So you might as well be a good person.

You might as well be a good person.

There's the quote I'm taking from this show.

But I am going to ask you one more question, actually, because I was very interested in what you said there about stuff will always work for everyone.

Because I will experiment a bit on lesson sometimes I think, oh, let's try this, or let's try this.

So if I can't remember if we did but if on a drive last, I said, oh, let's try this idea that I've got today, and you were happy to try it, but it didn't work, would that bother you or would you take that as a.

Oh, well, we tried that.

It didn't work.

We don't.

Let's do it again.

Yeah, I'd completely take those.

Okay, we tried it.

It didn't work.

I think there's plenty of lessons where we were moving up to try new things and there's different ways of teaching.

Terry Scott.

So many car toys and whiteboards and notebooks and flashcards and everything in your car that there's going to be a way that works for everyone.

But you have to find that for me.

I loved your artistic drawings.

But for some people, they don't want to pull over at the side of the road and watch you draw a roundabout.

They just want to go and do the roundabout.

But if you don't experiment, you're not going to know that.

And for some, most students, I would assume, don't know how they want to learn to drive because they've never done it before.

So there is much learning how to learn as you are learning how to teach.

So I, I'm just touched that you said it was artistic drawings and I don't think there's a better note to finish on.

But.

So, yeah, I want to thank you for your time again, your second rest on the podcast.

I want to try and find a way to get you on again just so we can make it a trilogy.

But yeah, big thank you for joining us, Charlotte.

Really appreciate it.

No worries.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, in fact, you want to tell everyone where they can go and follow your, your guinea pigs on Instagram.

Yeah, sorry.

If you've had them squeaking away, we're filming this in the evening and they've not been fed, they've got their own Instagram account.

It's just heguinea pig lady.

If you want to give them a follow.

But then you can find me on LinkedIn if you search Charlotte Parker, Marketing, I'll come up.

Awesome.

Again, thank you for your time today.

It's appreciated.

No worries.

And we'll be back in just a moment with the next interview with Julia Feeric.

But just before we do, I'm just taking a slight pause in the show to give a shout out to our latest sign up to the instructor podcast Premium David Owen.

Now, David has recently signed up and he has got access to nearly 80 exclusive shows already over in that premium content bank.

And he's got access to the two or three minimum shows that we put out every month, including the most recent one, which is a Bob Martin.

We do exclusive podcast every month called Being Better with Bob Martin.

And this recent one, we answered a question from one of the premium members talking about troublesome students.

And Bob also gave some excellent advice around judgmental language, how that can affect lessons and standard checks.

But as I said, there's nearly 80 exclusive shows over there covering everything, standard checks to coaching, to building a better business.

Loads of awesome stuff over there, but it's not just content.

We also have some exclusive discounts for you.

So if you sign up to the premium content for ten pounds a month, you will get a ten pound discount off Bob Mart's clients that are learning.

You will also get discounts from places like the Adi Doctor, the Guild of Mindful Drivers, Go Rode and Culture the Geeks Turbo.

So loads of discounts available over there as well and we've already got some more exclusive stuff lined up to kick off in January.

So now is the perfect time to sign up and I say it's only 10 pound a month for the all the content here and if you sign up and you don't like it, tell me and you can leave and you'll pay your ten pounds and then you can get all the content for a month and then you never have to come back and listen again.

But that's unlikely to happen because everyone that signs up seems to love it and always comes back for more.

So yeah, best place to find that, you can either find the link in the show notes or head over to www.the instructorpodcast.com over there, head to the premium section, you can have a look at some of the exclusive shows we've got over there and you can find links to sign up.

So again, for ten pounds a month you get all that awesome stuff.

But for now let's dive back into the show and we're now joined by former student of mine, an all round amazing human being, Julia Furyk.

How we doing Julia?

Hi.

Fantastic, thanks.

No, it's great to have you on because when I was kind of muting about getting this show done, the pupils perspective show, a few of my listeners over in my premium content had heard you on Driving Test Tales and, and they requested you to come on.

So you are a special requested guest.

Wow, I feel very honored.

Yeah, you're working your way through all my podcasts, which is never a good thing.

But, but this show, this episode is about the pupil's perspective.

It's about how you found learning to drive and maybe what advice would offer to instructors and, and you know that side of it.

So I think the first question I want to ask you is how you found the overall experience of learning to drive.

So overall, honestly, I loved it.

I was very nervous about it to begin with, but I think driving lessons became like the highlight of my week and I'd always look forward to them if you know, an extra spot came available.

I was always really excited that I had one a bit sooner than I thought.

And yeah, just like making that kind of progress.

I think it's Great.

Because every lesson you do feel like you're moving forward and it's one of those things where just a few hours makes a massive difference and you can really see yourself getting better.

I like that about it.

I want to dive straight into that.

Why was it the highlight of your week?

What did you enjoy so much?

I mean, obviously, you know, I make everyone's highlight of the week, but what was it?

Yeah, the company.

The company, Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, I think the progress part of it and I think as you're growing up, so I learned to drive when I was what, 20?

And by then I already knew quite a few people who had learned.

And so there's this big anticipation of when you turn old enough and when are you going to learn to drive.

And it finally come to the time where it was my summer, that was my time, that was my opportunity.

And yeah, it just felt like the start of a new stage of getting that kind of independence and reaching that, I guess, extra level of maturity.

Yeah.

And the other thing you mentioned there was about being offered an extra slot, and that was one of the things I wanted to speak to you about in particular was the interaction we had.

So as a, as a student, as someone that's learning to drive, what was it like that, you know, like when you get a message from me saying, oh, can we do an extra lesson?

Or this is what I've got available this week, do you want anything extra?

You know, was that, did you feel like you were being pestered or did you feel that it was just good communication?

No, not pestered at all.

Honestly, I think the communication aspect is really important because at the end of the day you're both reliant on each other.

The instructor obviously needs the person who's learning to be on board on the same page to have everything coordinated so that everything runs smoothly.

And then obviously the learner relies on their, on their instructor.

And so I think it definitely has to be like a two way process of, you know, not just the learner going out and being like, oh, I really want more lessons, or I, you know, hello, excuse me, can I, can I do this, can I do that?

I think it has to be both of you.

And I think getting those kinds of extra, extra offers, I think really makes the learner feel part of, part of the entire plan and like they're being, I guess, just treated, I suppose, as an equal.

As like a.

Yeah, like, like the cooperations there.

Yeah, and I think that's a big part of it.

It is an equal Relationship.

There may be things that I know that you don't.

I can teach you, but I always learned from you guys as well.

So I think that you phrasing it like that as a sort of an equal, I think is, is key.

But I mean just in terms of communication, it was, that's something that I thought that came across really well from you as well.

If I go right back to when you first started, I can remember you messaging me and basically asking a start lessons and I had no room, I couldn't take anyone else.

I can remember saying to you, I will find room simply because of the first message you sent me.

Because you sent me this quite a long message telling me about where you're at, why you learn this drive, your availability, you know, you kind of whole thing about this is someone that I want to work with.

So remember before we even had this first lesson, we swapped quite a lot of messages.

How important to you is that initial communication, Initial interaction?

I think to me it was key.

I think by the fact that I, my very first message, I didn't want it to be, you know, one of those preset Facebook ones of what's your availability or just the ones that you click on and it automatically sends.

I wanted something that was a bit more personal, a bit more about me.

Because at the end of the day, again, it's a two way choice.

The learner has to choose the instructor, but the instructor also has to choose the learner sometimes.

So yeah, I think the communication was key and just making sure my potential instructors knew where I was coming from, knew what I was looking for.

I think it's really important to get that kind of communication right nice and early.

I, I definitely agree with that.

I think that that communication is key and like I said, because you laid that, that sort of openness honestly to me, I was able to be honest back and say, look, I don't know when I'll be able to fit you in, but I'll see what I can do.

So in terms of me being honest with you and saying, you know, I don't know if I can, but I'll try my best and not necessarily committing to anything, how much did that, that sort of honesty back, how much, how valuable was that to you?

Honestly, it meant a lot because especially that someone when I was learning, starting to learn to drive or wanting to learn to drive, I realized quite quickly that it was going to be quite hard to find an instructor.

Instructors are in really high demand.

It was just after Covid.

So all of a sudden Things were open, lessons were able to be run.

And so it was, it was going to be a difficult process.

And some of the messages I received back from other instructors were just, sorry, no spaces.

Whereas Terry actually, you know, you had the time and you put in the effort to, you know, give a bit of a longer reply.

And I think something I really valued was when you, you offered me like the links to learning resources, some yours and some not even related to you, just websites, other things that I could look at that so that even if we didn't go ahead with any lessons together, it still felt like you really wanted to facilitate my journey and learning, even if it wasn't going to be with you.

I really appreciated that.

And I think the last thing I want to ask around that is that one of the things that I really believe in is that I only want to work with people that I want to work with.

I don't want to be stuck in a car for two, three, four hours, whatever it is, with someone that I don't enjoy teaching or working with.

So because of that, I value that interaction.

So from your perspective, do you think that that communication helps the, the student find the right instructor and vice versa?

Oh, yeah, 100%.

Because I, the way that I went about it then I did contact a few instructors myself.

I went on a trial lesson with a different instructor, planned one with a different one.

And so it was like at one point, I think there were three potential instructors I could have gone with.

And at the end of the day, the skills being taught were all going to be of a high standard and everyone was a good instructor.

It was just the kind of connection and relationship building aspect that I think I then decided to focus on.

At the end of the day, you're all qualified to teach and you're all going to be great.

It's just about finding that person who again, you want to spend that time learning with.

The person who you think will bring out the best in you, the person who will make you look forward to those lessons rather than just have a more transactional relationship of teach and off you go.

No relation, no communication, no talking, nothing between the lessons.

Just here you are, here's two hours.

These are the skills.

Off you go again.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's not something I was looking for.

So for me it was important.

I think that was something else I wanted to ask you about because as you mentioned there, you did have lessons with another instructor and at least one instructor, and I was aware of that.

And again, we go back to that communication Side, you told me, quite honestly, you said, I want to pay for my first lesson.

My memory is quite good for stuff like this.

I want to pay for my first lesson just by itself because I'm going to have lessons with someone else as well and then I'll decide who I go with and then, you know, pay for like a block of lessons.

So I simply took that as exactly like you've just described, which is, well, I want to see who's right for me.

But I do sometimes read online from other instructors that they would perhaps take offense of that.

They don't want to share students or whatever.

But from your perspective, do you believe that an instructor should take offence or do you think that that really is just you try to find the right person for you?

Yeah, I think definitely no offence meant by it and I don't think any offence should be taken because, as I said, yeah, I just wanted to find someone who I thought suited me as an individual who had the, you know, the other skills, just the general, I suppose, connection with me, so that I'd, yeah, I'd get the most out of the lessons and that the instructor would also, I suppose, enjoy them too.

Yeah, yeah.

So definitely no offense meant, I think.

And again, I think communicating at all, making sure everyone's, you know, that no one's taken aback, no one's surprised if, you know, a student suddenly stops replying.

I mean, that would be worst case scenario.

Definitely wouldn't do that.

But yeah, and I think as well, I much prefer to get it right first time early on rather than commit to, let's say, 10 hours.

Do the 10 hours, not really enjoy them, prolong them, because let's say I'm not enjoying them.

So I'd probably want to space the lessons apart rather than have 10 hours a week with someone who I just don't feel like I click with.

And then that would just make the.

The whole experience quite negative for both parties involved.

If I wanted to just get it right, you know, see the two hours, use that as an indication instead of, you know, trying out 10, 15 hours and then switching and then, you know, potentially not making the progress I could have made.

Yeah, I mean, I've had it the opposite round as well, where I've had, I mean, admittedly not many, but I've had one or two people that have come to me and after that first lesson or first couple lessons have gone elsewhere because I've not been right for them and I've had it.

Well, where I have said to a student, I don't think I'm the right instructor for you for whatever reason.

How would you have taken that, do you think?

If, I mean, obviously be massively disappointed because I'm an amazing human being, as we discussed earlier.

But if I'd have said to you, I'm sorry, Julia, I don't think I'm right for you because of X, Y and Z, would that, would you have taken that as like a personal insult?

Would you have taken that?

Well, clear, we're not right for each other.

I'm gonna move on.

Yeah, I think it's obviously a difficult situation.

I think as well, you know, a lot of us try and avoid confrontation.

Things like that often feel quite awkward.

But again, it's, it's a big commitment to make a big time commitment.

You know, you get quite involved and yeah.

So I think it is important to always respect each other's opinions about it.

And since it's a, you know, a two way exchange, then definitely as a student, if your instructor did turn around to you and say that, then it would probably be difficult to hear, of course.

But yeah, I think it's just something you've got to, got to roll with and move on with and realize that it's probably also the best for you.

The instructor has taught many, many people before you, so they probably know what's right.

The other thing you mentioned just a little bit earlier that I wanted to touch back on was you mentioned about the resource.

Can't say the resources I sent you.

So there were things like the, the app that I use where you can book your lessons, that kind of stuff.

There was Theory Test Pro, I think I sent you my podcasts and I'll send you some other stuff that weren't, wasn't mine either.

But there were, you know, links or so not all just my stuff.

How important to you was that even if you didn't use it all, but to have the feeling that, oh, I've got this app where I can see my lessons are, I can see where my payments are and I've got all this other stuff.

How, how did that make you as a learner feel?

Yeah, honestly, it just makes you feel very involved.

Makes you feel like you've got more of a say and, you know, more ownership over your own lessons and more input into it all.

It's also, I think, good to do things behind the scenes when you're not in a car, when you're not, you know, during the lesson, practicing, whatever.

Just knowing that you do have options to keep making progress, even if for Example, there is a busy time and you can't quite make schedules fit, then, you know, during times like that, knowing that you do have resources to go to, I think is really reassuring.

Do you think that, again, I appreciate this is just your opinion and everyone's different, but do you think that's something that most, if not all instructors should be offering so that they can just say, look, here's some stuff, you can do this between lessons?

Yeah, honestly, I think even if.

If instructors don't have their own resources that they've created, I think, you know, directing students to resources that have been created by other people is honestly just as valuable, I think.

I don't know, like, support other creators, stuff like that.

Yeah, definitely.

And things.

Yeah, things like the apps.

Definitely.

Definitely a good thing to have.

Yeah.

I mean, I would second that because I'm not brilliant at creating videos, but there are lots of people that are.

So I don't need to go make videos.

I can send you links to theirs.

I'm better at the audio stuff.

Facebook radio, you might say.

But I also just wanted to touch a little bit on.

On the theory, just while we'll mention the resources there, because again, that was something where the communication came into it, because I've always said to my students, I'll very, very probably said it to you that you can message me anytime you want.

You can message me free in morning.

Just don't expect a reply back.

And if I haven't replied back in a couple of days, feel free to chase me up.

And I can remember you doing your theory and having a really good approach to that because you would be sending me screenshots of questions and stuff like that.

And there was some where that could text you an answer.

There was somewhere I might have to send you a voice note.

And then there were others where we went through in the car because a bit more complicated.

So again, if we're talking about the communication, how was that communication around the theory for you?

How important was that?

I think to me, it was really important.

Yeah.

Just, I suppose, like, getting the answers was.

Was great, but having someone to explain them to you who actually knows you as a driver, I think that was really valuable because, you know, sometimes these apps do, you know, refer you back to the.

To the.

What's it called?

The driving.

And, you know, you get the official paperwork on it.

It tells you the answers that you.

You could just learn it, I suppose, just memorize it.

But I think what's always better is knowing that you can go to your instructor, ask the question.

And they can relate it back to, for example, routes that you've been on together or, you know, when you're actually on the drive pointing things out, pointing out, oh, this is the, the kind of sign that you saw in your, in your questions that you were confused about these, these are the road markings.

This is how the road markings change.

And so, and that's not something you can just get from Googling it.

I think that's a great place where your instructor can come in and actually talk to you about it.

So, I mean, from my experience as an instructor, not every student wants help with a theory.

A lot of them don't have the same attitude towards the theory that you did.

They've not always got the best attitude.

But how important do you think it is?

As instructors, we provide that option so that we are willing to talk to you about it.

We are willing to help you.

Honestly, I think it's crucial.

I think it's obviously a lot nicer for the student to know that if they can pass the theory test first time, if they feel like they're making faster progress with it, thanks to help.

I think that's always really good.

Something else I wanted to mention that I remember you doing is posting on social media, like a little challenge for the day or for the week about the driving theory tests of, you know, can you beat my score?

And I think that kind of like friendly competition.

I, I think that was really good.

I think that was really encouraging and I, I suppose reminding students that it is, it is still a thing and you do still have to keep on top of it.

It was, it's annoying because I hadn't done that for a little while actually.

But I used to do the amok theory test every Friday.

So I'd post a score up and say, can you be.

And I always got 49 because anytime I got to a test, I'll borrow and I want it over and I just rush through questions.

There are always one or two I got wrong because I'm paying attention.

And that's how you fail your theory test, by not paying attention, rushing it.

But you didn't.

You passed first time and got annoyed with yourself because you only finished in the top 5% in the UK rather than the top 1% or whatever it was.

But I did want to speak to you a little bit as well about the communication in lessons in the sense of you were very, very nervous learning to drive, I think, was it, oh God was your favorite phrase when I would say, we're going to take the next left and oh God.

Or there's a man seven miles down the road.

Oh God.

But you would often come to lessons with almost like a new worry, a new concern, and you would want to get out of your system at the start of the lesson.

You know, whether that was a two minute conversation or a 20 minute conversation, you would have a, I say almost a new concern and, and feel like you just need to then get out your system and then we'd go and have an awesome lesson.

So being able to have that option at the start of a lesson to talk about your concern or get it off your chest, how important was that to you?

Yeah, so as you said, I was a very nervous, very nervous beginner.

And yeah, I would often come to the lesson thinking, oh, you know, I started overthinking this thing, or when I was in the car and someone else was driving, I saw them doing so and so and I just thought, oh my God, I wouldn't have known what to do.

And so having that time I think definitely got my confidence up.

And I think there's such like a mental aspect to driving and that if you're not in the right mindset, then it's just not going to go well.

And I think I do actually remember one lesson when we got to the top of a hill, gonna do a hill start, and I just, I just remember not really feeling it.

I think I needed a few minutes to just compose myself.

Then we set off, went down this horrible one way street or something.

It was awful.

It was really windy, loads of parked cars.

And then I think, Terry, you noticed that I was just not really with it.

I was a little bit too anxious about it.

And so I remember we stopped, got out the car, took a few deep breaths, spoke about it, just had a conversation.

What was it on my mind?

You know, what was that mental block for me?

Because physically I could do it, I could change gears when I needed to, I knew when to press the clutch.

But for some reason it just wasn't adding up because the mental part wasn't quite right.

And so having those conversations both at the start of the lessons and even sometimes in the middle, and then I remember we always did a recap at the end as well.

Just a conversation about what we've achieved, that lesson, what we've done that day, from what I want to take away from it, I think just having those constant conversations in between the actual bits of driving I thought was fantastic.

Honestly, I think it was one of the best things that could have been done.

Knowing that there's more than just driving non stop.

I think the key takeaway from there for me is that it was all.

It was never mandated.

You know, there would be times when we'd pull up when you might pull up for 30 seconds.

There were times we pull up and I said, you might pull up for 20 minutes.

But it was what you needed at the time.

So I used to be quite nervous about stuff like that when I first started in the.

Oh, God.

If I speak to the student now, they're just going to think I'm wasting the time and wasting their money.

And I was always scared, but I found quite quick that if I just do it as appropriate for the student, as you just said, it works.

So would you just advise instructors to test that water a little bit and see what works for each student?

Yeah, honestly, I would, I would.

And I'd definitely say to not be scared of pulling over for a little bit longer to have those conversations and, you know, to have that kind of mental reset sometimes if a student needs it.

Yeah, because I suppose it is sometimes quite scary from both parties.

Sometimes as a student, when you are not on the go for a while in the lesson, then you might start thinking, oh, why aren't we driving?

But honestly, I think sometimes with the mental blockades, the best way to make the progress in the practical side is to stop, slow down, talk about some things.

And yeah, that's entirely based off of the student.

And yeah, I suppose as an instructor, just being receptive to that as you get to know your student, reading the cues, getting to know whether the, oh God, as I used to say, is actually, you know, anything to be worried about.

Is it a reason to stop?

Is it a reason to have that reset?

Or are they just being dramatic?

Yeah, I think there was the odd dramatic occasion.

But yeah, the other thing I want to touch on with you is private practice practice.

Because there is a big campaign at the minute from the DVSA to encourage, where possible, private practice.

And the other student I had on, on this episode, Charlotte, she had an awful lot of private practice.

She had her own car, she was out with a partner quite a lot, driving all over the place, whereas you, on the other side had none.

And the way you learned to drive was, I don't necessarily say unique, but, but definitely not overly common in.

We kind of had a, a big block of lessons over a few weeks.

Then you disappeared off to Poland for a month, but then you came back and we had another block of less than three weeks and he disappeared to Cambridge for, for a few months, then you come back and all block of lessons and you test.

So I know you can't necessarily make a direct comparison because you're nothing to compare it to, but I'd be interested in your thoughts on private practice.

Do you think that, that not having private practice hampered you?

Do you think it benefited you?

What, what was the impact there, do you think?

Yeah.

So honestly, again, this is probably something that did add to my anxiety because of the big push to do, you know, private learning.

And yeah, I think it definitely made me quite worried.

I thought that I'll definitely be disadvantaged.

That something, something else I was worried about is that I'll end up spending, I suppose a lot more money and time in paid lessons because I don't have the private practice.

I kind of thought, well, am I going to have to do the number of hours of private practice as a lesson instead?

I was quite worried about it but honestly, in the end I think it all turned out pretty fine.

Yeah, I had certain periods where I wouldn't drive a car at all for two months and then I'd come back, get a few lessons again, not do any practice at home because it just wasn't feasible.

My parents only had an automatic car and I thought it was really valuable to learn on a manual.

I didn't want to get confused.

And again, so I think for me there was a moment of debating whether it's worth getting insured on an automatic car even though I'm learning on a manual.

And I think that again was something that I needed to decide whether I wanted to do of balancing, switching, you know, the method of driving in order to just get those hours on the road in.

I wasn't quite sure what to do in the end I just decided to not get any of the private practice in.

I felt like we were making good enough progress.

I think at one point Terry advised me to do some visualization.

So in the times that I can't, you know, drive or you know, when I'm not around to get lessons to just sit, close my eyes and imagine that I'm driving.

So I did that a few times.

Honestly, I think that helped too.

I think it really was quite a reasonable suggestion.

In the end it sounds woo woo, but it works.

That's all I can say.

Yeah, so I think there's probably a much bigger, I guess like a bigger fuss about private lessons in, you know, in what people imagined and in actual fact there is, I think in actual fact they, you know, I'm sure they, they help but I've also heard of people learning quite bad, bad habits from non instructor instructors.

Yeah.

So honestly, I think there are definitely some pros and cons and in the end I was completely fine without.

Without any.

Do you think that much, like a lot about what we've spoken today?

Do you think it comes down to the individual?

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And I think, you know, sometimes, obviously it's not down to the individual, you know, whether they just have access or not, but I think definitely not building it up as a massive barrier if that person doesn't have that kind of opportunity to get any private practice in.

Yeah, I think, again, with the things you mentioned there, that that falls into that communication bracket.

You know, you mentioned about going to Poland and going to Cambridge and whatnot.

It was like I knew that from our first few messages we sent, so I was able to plan that into my lessons.

And because we'd had that open discussion and you asked me about the private practice side, I think I can remember my advice, which was, do what's right for you.

You know you an awful lot better than I know you.

If you think private practice will work, do it.

And in the end you decided, as you said, because it was automatic, that's going to cloud your mind a bit too much.

Yeah, but, yeah, I think it.

Yeah, it does come down to individual.

The other thing that comes down to individual.

And I asked this same question to Charlotte, so I'm going to be intrigued to see if your answer is the same or different.

But the Driving Instructor Awards, there are some around this time every year, and I see lots of different comments from instructors about them on different Facebook groups.

One of the common ones is about the sort of the Instructor of the Year award, where you have to kind of message your students and say, look, you know, this is.

I've been nominated for this, you can vote for me.

How annoying is it for you that when I message you randomly, out of the blue and say, if I've had a positive impact on your driving, here's a link.

You can go and vote for me here, but don't feel obliged.

How annoying is that?

On the scale?

How annoying is that?

Honestly, not annoying at all.

I really think a massive benefit of learning to drive is making that connection with your driving instructor.

And I think given the number of hours you spend in the car together, given the fact that your lives are literally in each other's hands or feet, then, yeah, to me, it would be weird to completely lose contact with your driving instructor after you've passed, especially since driving isn't just, you know, up to the driving test.

It continues after.

And so I think definitely, you know, keeping in touch with your instructor is great.

And hearing about things like the driving instructor awards again, I wouldn't have been able to.

To hear about that otherwise.

Maybe it's something I would have known about if I was a current student.

And just because I'm a previous student doesn't mean I don't want to be involved in that now.

Yeah, honestly, I was just glad to be able to be a part of it and be able to fill whatever I can fill out at the end of the day.

I think it's just good to celebrate people and celebrate achievements and celebrate people who have, you know, made positive impact.

So, honestly, I think there's absolutely no shame in saying, oh, this is going on.

If you'd like to, you know, take part as well.

If you'd like to, you know, contribute to any voting.

Yeah, I just think it's great.

Yeah.

Not always so great when your students text you back immediately and says, oh, yeah, I've put these negative comments about you and said, oh, you nearly killed us all time.

That's not always ideal.

But I would also chuck in.

I suppose when you're one of my learners, you also get messages saying, will you come and appear on a podcast with me?

That then driving to his tails and gets downloaded 28,000 times.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Which one of them is worse?

I'll let you decide.

So, kind of the final question I want to ask you is what, you know, if you had a friend that was taking up driving lessons, what qualities would you ask them to look for in a driving instructor, do you think?

Yeah, so I think I'd.

I'd tell them to find someone who makes sure that they're in the right mindset when they're driving to get someone who, you know, even if there doesn't need to be a, you know, a word for it or, you know, a way to describe it, just someone who you can form a connection with so that when you're in the car, the atmosphere is positive and you just.

It just feels right.

I think some.

I think that's why I.

I wanted to try out some lessons instead of, you know, just trying to.

To judge it straight away then.

Yeah, just trying it out to see how it feels.

And I think sometimes just knowing how it feels and how you feel while you're in the car, how you feel when you've.

You've left, how you.

How you feel, imagining more lessons with that person and I think that's honestly a much better measure than any kind of adjectives because every instructor is going to be different and every student's different.

And so different people suit different instructors.

So honestly, I think just trusting your instinct, trusting how you feel after spending time with the person, I think is the best measure of it.

Awesome.

Anything else you'd like to cover while you're on here?

Any final words of advice for driving instructors, do you think?

Oh, yeah, I suppose.

Have fun with it.

It's always a lot nicer for both of you if the atmosphere is positive like that.

See it as another relationship to build up because it is, of course, like a working relationship.

And both of you need to be involved in it.

Both of you need to be on the same page about the driving, about what you want to achieve each lesson.

And so having that kind of communication and, yeah, I think that's everything.

Awesome.

Well, I do appreciate you joining me today for this episode of the instructor podcast.

So, yeah, thank you for your time.

It's been awesome.

Yeah, it's been great.

Thank you for having me.

So, big thank you to both Charlotte and Julia there for joining me on this podcast.

I know that as learners to go and record on an instructor podcast, I can imagine that's a little bit daunting.

So I appreciate both of them joining me.

I learned a lot.

I hope you learn a lot as well.

And as always, always welcome feedback.

So feel free to let me know what you think about the show.

And speaking of what you think about the show, I like to read out some of my feedback that I get and I'm going to read out the negative comments.

This actually goes back to last week's episode with the coaching crowd.

And I got a lovely comment on my post on Facebook from a chat called Michael Hollingberry, whose comment was, I found this interview a turn off.

Now, I'm not sure whether that means he didn't enjoy the interview or whether he was hoping to be aroused and then found it unarousing.

I'm not sure which one of those he meant.

I did ask him to clarify.

I replied with, that's a shame.

What could I have done better, in your opinion?

Unfortunately, he didn't then reply to that.

So a bit of a negative comment about last week's episode.

However, there were also some positive.

So Phil Cowley said he loved the episode and instantly subscribed to the coaching crowd.

Crowd.

Lee Jaw, it said, such a great episode.

Loved the Force on the test.

The DVSA want ADI secret responsible drivers.

But one ADI to be 100 responsible for the decision making regarding test rather than it being part of the process of learning and what could be learned about overconfidence or using the experience to help the pupil reevaluate their beliefs.

Great job at facilitating the discussion as always, unless Hopkinson said Great episode Terry.

Thanks for taking the time to speak to Zoe and Joe show and get them to talk about coaching relating to our industry.

So the positive clearly far outweighing the bad.

And if you've got any feedback you are welcome to leave it.

I'll say review on Apple, on Facebook or comments on my post.

I will happily read out the negative and the positive.

I quite enjoy doing this at end of the shows, but yeah, just for me.

Just want to take a moment to thank you for listening today.

It's a show that like I said at the start, I did have a bit of a trouble forming it in my brain quite how I wanted it to go.

But I really enjoyed the end of it and I hope you guys did too.

So so hope you guys have an awesome week and I'll catch you soon.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.