Navigating Defense Innovation: Collaborative Piloting with the U.S. Navy & Startups | The Pair Program Ep50

In this compelling episode, we delve into the evolving landscape of defense technology and innovation with three experts leading the charge.

Join us as we speak with Justin Fanelli, Acting CTO for the Department of Navy and Technical Director of PEO Digital; Katie Wildman, Senior Business and Technology Strategist at PEO Digital and Enterprise Services; and Colin Gounden, CEO of VIA.

Together, they explore the critical intersection of defense missions and technological advancements, and how collaboration between the Navy and startups is driving significant progress.In this episode, you’ll discover:

• How the Department of the Navy’s mission is closely linked with advancements in technology and the need for ongoing innovation.
• The Navy’s collaboration with startups: Hear from Colin Gounden on how VIA aligns with the Navy’s mission and the importance of integrating commercial tech solutions within defense operations.
• How the Navy employs structured piloting and challenges to scale and evaluate new technologies.
• Insights on where commercial companies can identify opportunities to work with the Navy, and tips for contributing to defense innovation.

About Justin Fanelli: Justin is the Acting CTO for the Dept of Navy and the Technical Director (TD) of PEO Digital. As CTO, his office is laser focused on measurably improving technology-driven mission outcomes within the Dept of Navy. As TD, his Program Executive Office is expediting the performant, secure transformation of enterprise information technology infrastructure. He currently serves as an Advisor for Advanced Research Project Agency – Health (ARPA-H), the NIST AI Safety Institute and various S&T advisory boards. Outside of the office, he currently teaches graduate courses at Georgetown University. Justin has lectured at a dozen other universities including Harvard, Dartmouth and Penn. He advises on innovation and recently gave a TED talk on innovation adoption.

About Katie Wildman: Katie Wildman is a Senior Business and Technology Strategist supporting Program Executive Office Digital and Enterprise Services (PEO DES) at the Department of Navy (DON). She manages the PEO DES pilot program, accelerating adoption of modern technology and business processes at the DON. When not at work, she loves to run, travel, and volunteer at hospice facilities with her therapy dog, Maisey!

About Colin Gounden: As VIA’s CEO, Colin Gounden has led VIA’s Web3 technology roadmap and secured several of the world’s leading energy companies and the U.S. Department of Defense as customers. Colin is a Harvard University graduate with two previous successful startup exits and is a co-inventor on multiple VIA patents.

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Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad,

the podcast that gives you a front

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row seat to candid conversations with

tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad.

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And I'm your other host, Mike Ruin.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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Welcome back to The Pair Program.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler.

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Today is somewhat of a

bonus episode on the show.

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Uh, most of our listeners might

notice that my cohost, Mike Gruen

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is not on this one, uh, reason being

we've got a full plate of a few

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extra special guests joining us.

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Uh, so I'm going to run this one

solo and, uh, just try to make this

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discussion as efficient as possible.

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Uh, today we're going to be, uh,

diving deep into the theme of

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innovation within the defense sector.

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Uh, joining me are some really

excellent guests, uh, kind of at the

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forefront of pioneering defense tech,

uh, specifically across the U S Navy.

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So we have Justin Fanelli, the acting

CTO of the Navy, Katie Wildman, a senior

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technology strategist supporting the Navy,

and Colin Gounden, the founder of VIA.

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So we're going to be discussing some of

the ways that the Navy is introducing tech

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innovation, like structured challenges

or structured piloting approaches.

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Uh, challenges and successes with

these methods and fortunate to

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have a firsthand example of a

collaboration between via and the Navy.

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So let's just jump in.

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Um, before we dive in, we'd like to kick

things off with our pair me up segment.

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Here's what we all kind

of go around the room.

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Spitball a complimentary

pairing of our choice.

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I'll lead it off quickly.

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Um, uh, so, um, I'm going to go with, um,

online auctions and impulsive purchases.

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Uh, so my brother's one of these guys

that's really big into like consignment

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stores and Facebook marketplace.

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Uh, so it was like someone who's

always kind of looking for one of

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these deals and I don't know why,

maybe hopes of reselling something.

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So this morning he tips me off to this

online auction, uh, for sports memorabilia

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from this estate sale, uh, in Maryland.

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And I'm a fan of sports memorabilia,

um, uh, and antiques and such, but so

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I hopped on by, this is my first time

I've ever done like an online auction.

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And, uh, it was quite an experience.

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I mean, people are just kind of real

time bidding with you and kind of have

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this anxiety of like, do I need this?

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Do I not need it?

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Um, ended up landing a few items.

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Um, I would say they were clearly

impulsive buys, but, um, I'm glad I got

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them, uh, question mark, but, uh, um, I

will say that it was a good experience.

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One of the things I got, I think it

was, I thought it was pretty cool.

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It was a poster of, uh, Pele, uh, hugging

Muhammad Ali that was signed by Pele.

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We'll figure something out to do with it.

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Um, but, uh, that's going to be

my, my pairing, um, uh, online

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auctions and impulsive purchases.

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Let's pass it around, uh, to our

guest, uh, Katie, how about yourself?

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Quick intro and your parent.

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Katie Wildman: Hey everyone.

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Um, I'm going to start with my pairing

because I live in South Carolina and it's

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so fricking hot out right now that my

pairing is iced coffee and a snow day.

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Cause I just.

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Run on coffee and could

use some cooler weather.

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I, which, you know, sometimes it's

just, it's hard in August, but my

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quick intro about me is just that

I have past experience in the DOD

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department of defense and Intel space.

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Doing a lot of kind of all over

the board program management and

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currently working with the pilot

process at the department of Navy.

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So it's a super fun thing, but

need coffee to keep running.

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So that's me.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, that's Duncan.

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Uh, awesome.

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Nice to have you here, Katie.

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Justin, how about yourself?

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Quick intro and a pairing.

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Justin Fanelli: Yeah.

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Uh, so, uh, I love to be around,

uh, Folks who make things happen.

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So I'm fortunate to be

around three right now.

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And then anyone who walks by my car,

cause that's where we're taking this

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podcast from, uh, so, uh, my, uh, my

pairing is, uh, Tano covers, uh, and

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serendipity, Uh, so about 15 minutes

ago, I walked out of a meeting, uh,

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uh, got into a cyber truck and on the

screen it said, uh, tonneau, uh, open.

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And I said, what's a tonneau?

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And he said, Oh, that's

the bed of the truck.

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And I joined a call and, uh, this was

an engineering call and they were within

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the first five words talking about

tonneau covers, and I said, Yeah, through

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42 years, I've never heard this word

and now I've heard it in 90 seconds.

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And the reason that that's relevant is,

um, if you run in, uh, a diverse circles,

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uh, and you run with, uh, people who

are, uh, making things happen, then,

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uh, I think the world gets smaller.

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And so, uh, you have, I see growth

through community in the background,

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growth through diverse communities,

uh, and the alignment possible.

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There is so special.

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And I don't, I don't think I've ever been

around a more special set of communities.

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And then, uh, the more that they

align kind of the, the better things

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are and the happier we all are.

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Good

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Tim Winkler: stuff.

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Justin Fanelli: Yeah.

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Tim Winkler: We're, we're, uh,

we're pumped to have you, Justin.

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I'm, I can also just vouch

that Tano covers her.

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Pretty sweet.

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Got one on, on my truck as well.

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So it's, it's like one of the best

things I'd say to, to my truck.

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Uh, cool.

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Colin, a quick intro, uh, and your parent,

and then we'll jump into the discussion.

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Colin Gounden: Um, terrific.

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Um, I would say I was going to pick, uh,

Netflix and Scandinavian serial killer

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series, but given Justin's, you know,

comment about serendipity and diversity,

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I'm going to actually switch to diversity

and common vocabulary, which is, we,

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you know, we try to hire a lot of people

from different places, which is great,

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but if those people can't communicate,

then that doesn't really work very well.

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So we actually have, like, we pick.

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Specific words that everybody needs to

know and have the same common definition

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in order to make diversity work.

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It's like a little counterintuitive,

but that's that's sort of a pairing

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that we've had to force here or make,

you know, make institutionalize my

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background is 30 years in, uh, I.

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T.

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software technology had the opportunity to

start and found 2 companies before selling

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both successfully and then co founded,

uh, the, um, A few years ago, six, uh,

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seven years ago, uh, with a number of

folks who I've worked with previously,

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and I'm just delighted to be here.

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Thank you for the opportunity, Tim.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, yeah.

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We're pumped to have you as well.

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Uh, all right, great.

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Uh, again, everybody's, uh, rattled

off their, their intros and parents.

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We're going to transition to

the heart of the discussion now.

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So as I mentioned, you know, we're

talking about innovation across defense

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and kind of breaking down how this can be

achieved in a, a very large, regulated,

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sensitive ecosystem like the Navy.

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Um, so I think a good float for this

combo will be breaking down, you know,

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Navy's mission of that need for innovation

and then closing with the, the impact.

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Of that innovation, obviously using,

you know, the, the VA use case, uh,

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we'll balance back and forth between

all of our guests, uh, but I'd like

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to start with Justin and Katie, um,

you know, how would you all summarize

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the Navy's mission and how does that

mission intertwine with technology?

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Justin Fanelli: Sure.

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So just starting off, um, department

of Navy, Navy and Marine Corps, right

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at the, uh, at the secretariat level,

uh, to, uh, key services, uh, in the

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defense of our country, certainly.

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Um, and so.

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Uh, the, uh, it's hard to find just

from a, they're our users, right?

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They're our customers.

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Uh, and so it's hard to find better

people, uh, to serve, uh, this

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maritime mission, uh, the, uh, the

utility of those two forces together.

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Uh, you know, uh, two thirds

of the, uh, earth is ocean.

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Uh, and, uh, and then,

uh, the rest is land.

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And so we have, uh, quite a bit covered,

uh, in terms of, um, the actual services

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themselves, uh, uh, man, train and

equip is the mission of the services.

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And, uh, and for some time now, uh,

decades, um, since regulations put this

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into place, uh, we fight joint and,

uh, and preferably, uh, we, um, deter.

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Uh, jointly, uh, that are one

of our number one missions in

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terms of, uh, uh, like frequency,

uh, is something called HADR.

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Uh, these are, uh, this isn't, uh,

kind of like a, uh, an underrated

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or under known, uh, mission.

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So, uh, The idea of disaster recovery

and, uh, and relief, uh, internationally

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is something that, uh, Department

of Defense is, is widely involved

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in, um, and then, uh, I think the,

uh, people see, uh, the huge ships,

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uh, people see the, uh, uh, the, uh,

heroic stories of sailors and Marines.

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Uh, and so it's, um, quite a lot behind

the scenes in terms of the digital aspects

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of enabling them, uh, to, uh, to be

supported during, uh, cyber conflicts, uh,

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to, to concurrent conflicts in general.

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Um, and then all of the activities.

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involved with making sure

that organizations run well.

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And if we hang out just for a second,

we're thinking about, uh, department

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of defense and then federal as a whole.

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Uh, these are large organizations

that number one are part of a public

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private mesh, Uh, we're connected.

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Innovation is, uh, more commercial

than ever, uh, but it requires both

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of those players, uh, and then in

terms of the federal as a whole, uh,

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it's a much more digital federal.

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And I think it, uh, we see

that internationally, but.

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Uh, the way that we operate, the way

that we move at speed, the speed of

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relevance, uh, upticking, uh, largely

based on, uh, whether it's great power

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competition or what's happening in the

world or just the speed of technology.

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Um, that's one of the reasons that

we've tilted in the, in the direction

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of innovation and specifically

innovation adoption, uh, over to Katie.

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Katie Wildman: Uh, I mean, Justin always

says things so eloquently, but I was

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going to talk just about PEO digital.

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So that's one of the areas that

we work with and they primarily

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focus on delivering digital and

enterprise services to the entire,

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you know, sailors and Marines.

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So this is getting that

it into everyone's hands.

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And so we really are making sure that.

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It's not just for some

users, it's for all.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, appreciate

you pointing that out.

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Go ahead, Justin.

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Justin Fanelli: I was gonna say,

um, uh, I love that my giveaways

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are so obvious at this point.

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Uh, I get excited.

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Um, so Program Executive Office,

uh, Digital and Enterprise Services.

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Uh, within acquisition,

uh, that's my original job.

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So, uh, tech director for that, that's

where we have moved from, uh, program

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offices to portfolio management offices

so that we can, uh, be more gardeners,

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uh, potentially than carpenters and make

sure that we're surveying the land and

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figuring out what's ready to, to poach.

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And that's allowed us

to get in touch with.

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More kind of performers, new

entrants, partners in general.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, I love that.

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And obviously we'll, we'll talk a

little bit more about a specific use

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case like that with, uh, with Colin

and via, um, yeah, we've seen a huge

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transformation in the last call it

10 years of this more open adoption

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to commercial tech and to, you know,

federal and defense environments and.

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Um, you know, as someone who's been,

you know, tapping the startup ecosystem

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for years, living here in the DC area,

um, I think it's just a fantastic

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marriage, um, to, to kind of continue to.

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Push forward.

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Uh, so Colin, I'm going to

pass it to you at this point.

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So you're building a commercial company,

uh, with via, um, you know, it's clear

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why, you know, revenues and profits would

matter to you, but can you expand on why

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aligning with a mission like that of the,

of the navies would, would matter to you?

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Colin Gounden: Yeah, it's a great

question, because I think, of course,

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uh, um, today there are a lot of

companies, commercial organizations,

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right, that have missions, you know,

via his mission is around cleaner,

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safer, more equitable communities, um,

and enabling that through data and AI.

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Say that when we started, however,

it was unusual for companies or

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commercial organizations to have

a mission and unusual enough.

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There are actually 3 Harvard Business

School case studies written about the

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founding of the, uh, and, uh, because, you

know, normally we'd say, well, if you're.

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You know, if you're a commercial entity,

why aren't you in fintech, right?

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Why aren't you in, you know, uh,

there's a bunch of, you know,

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very profitable, big areas.

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And we made a choice, though, that,

um, a number of us had had worked,

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uh, and been successful previously.

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And we wanted to make a

difference in people's lives.

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And we felt like.

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This air emission driven organization,

cleaner, safer, more equitable

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communities was kind of underserved.

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There weren't as many people, which

creates a market opportunity, but

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it's a hard market opportunity.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Um, there's a reason why it's

often underserved because

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not everybody recognizes it.

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And we felt like, you know, if we

don't step up, you know, who will.

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Right who is the right

group to do that and.

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You know, I'd say the last thing is that,

you know, if we've today, of course,

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you know, with so many companies having

missions and starting to move into this

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area and defense being a bigger and

bigger area for, for many companies

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say, you know, if we played even a small

role in helping to inspire others to

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join this and make a difference, if this

podcast helps, you know, spur any kind

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of company to say, yeah, I should really

consider, you know, supporting defense.

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Then, you know, it's a little corny

and cheesy, but you know, we help

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make the world a little better place.

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And, you know, we should all

be proud of that and feel like

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that's a, that's motivated.

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That should be motivation enough

for what we're trying to do.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, we, we

embraced cheesy on this podcast,

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so it's all, it's all good.

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Um, I wanna, I wanna quickly kind of

just alter the conversation a little

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bit more into the area for, you know,

this need for innovation in the Navy.

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Uh, Justin, you, you know, you've kind

of touched on it with the, you know, the,

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the PEO digital, uh, Uh, creation and,

and why is this so crucial to start to

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integrate these external partners like,

like via, uh, into the fold and, and,

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you know, what kind of opportunities

does this create for the Navy?

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Justin Fanelli: Yeah.

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Um, so I want to lean into the, uh,

the cheesy, cause I think, uh, the

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idea of serving and showing that, um,

uh, your granddaddy's government, uh,

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is, uh, is not something that, uh, is.

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Holding us back from delivering faster

and from partnering with, uh, like we

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are, um, you see the people on the, like,

these are people who could do anything

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in the world and they want to serve.

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And so I think the, one of the main

reasons for that is, um, that, uh, people

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see the difference in terms of, um, uh,

their hands in, uh, their, their work, uh,

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their products in the hands of, uh, people

who are sacrificing and defending us.

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And then specifically on the innovation

side, uh, innovation, very much

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a team sport and a contact sport.

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Uh, and so the, uh, the adoption piece.

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Involves a lot of different players.

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So, uh, defense innovation unit, DIU gets

a lot of attention these days, rightfully.

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So, uh, they have helped us

there, how we got to the VIA team.

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That was someone that, uh, that

was a partner that we hadn't used

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before, both DIU and VIA, right?

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And so how we narrowed that

funnel down, attracted outside.

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I mean, they're in Silicon

Valley for a reason.

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They connect dots, another

partner up now then two and six.

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So the operational Navy.

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Folks who are our requirements holder,

uh, they have revised to top level

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requirements so that we can be more

flexible and so we can use different types

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of tools, the less prescriptive it is,

the more options that we have for industry

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to innovate and not feel handcuffed to

deliver the desired outcomes that we want.

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And so one of the areas that we're

thrusting on is, uh, how do we show the

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difference in mission outcomes versus

how we're doing business right now,

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uh, to how we'd like to do business.

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Thanks.

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What are the game changers?

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What we're finding is if you have really

good partners and really good tech and the

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operators are involved at the beginning,

it's not 20 or 30 percent better.

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It's power laws, exponentially better.

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So we've seen cases where it's 300 percent

better or even a lot more than that.

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And we want to demonstrate

that so we can leap ahead.

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There's a book.

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Um, what is it?

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Uh, uh, Thanks for coming late.

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It's a Friedman book.

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I will put it in show notes, but, um, uh,

sometimes there is an advantage to, uh,

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to being like, Hey, uh, sometimes I get

feedback that inevitably government tech

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is 10 years behind, uh, that's not true.

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Uh, and we can show cases where.

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We are leaping ahead or adopting cutting

edge because we're not going it alone.

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Tim Winkler: Katie, I love your input

on this as well, since you're, uh,

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kind of sitting at the forefront of

it, uh, on some of these programs.

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Katie Wildman: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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And I think the biggest thing too,

it's like, why are we evolving?

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Well, because tech is evolving and.

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We're dumb if we're not like all

of our adversaries are doing that.

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So why are we not leaning in and utilizing

what industry, what commercial has

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to offer, and then what also like the

rest of the government has to offer,

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because we only know what we know.

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Um, so I think, yeah, with calling

on like, this is the, Perfect use

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case of us leaning into something

new are piloting process that

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we've done our structured piloting.

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We've only done this for 2 years and we're

already seeing those outcomes and where.

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We are, you know, taking out, testing

new capabilities and then getting it

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into the hands of the war fighters.

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So I can go more into structure

piloting, but I don't want to jump on.

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So

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Tim Winkler: I've got that, uh, I've

got that tabled, um, as the next talking

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point, but I do want to, uh, real quick,

uh, pass it to Colin and Colin get your

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two cents on how you discovered the,

like these innovation needs for the Navy.

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Colin Gounden: Um, Justin hit on

this, which is, you know, DIU, the,

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you know, literally the internet.

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Literally we went online, we've

been following DIU, the defense

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innovation unit, and they posted,

uh, an RFP for a web three

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solution for data centric security.

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And we thought, Hey, that's what we do.

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This is a perfect for us.

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And now.

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It turns out that hundreds of other

companies or many of these also

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thought it was perfect for them.

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So it's not, you know, it was, uh,

uh, you know, it was competitive and

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there was a competitive process to go

through to demonstrate that we knew

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something or would be a good fit here.

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Um, and, uh, you know, a

short timeframes as well.

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So, Justin mentioned, uh, you know,

government, you know, sometimes

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people have this perception, right?

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That government moves slow.

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That RFP process was 11 days from

the time that it opened to the

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time we had to submit, right?

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That is a, I don't know, we work in

the commercial sector, not a lot of

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companies, you know, have that short time.

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That is 11 elapsed days.

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That doesn't include weekends.

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Right.

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That, that includes the weekend.

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And so, um, we had a short cycle

process and then we're on contract

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relatively fast and, um, you know,

we're happy that the Navy selected

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us as the sole awardee for that.

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But it was a, it was a very,

very positive experience.

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Right.

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And, but keeping an eye out, one nice

thing about the government, which

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I, and, and defense, I think is.

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Yeah.

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There are a lot of needs, whether those

requirements or outcomes that are public

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and available accessible versus, um,

you know, in, in, uh, corporate world,

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actually, you, you're kind of guessing

you have to be in close contact with

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customers, but you don't know, like,

always what's, uh, what's required

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and, and, uh, and so I think there's

an advantage actually to, to working

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with government from that perspective.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, I want to dive deeper

into the, uh, the piloting approach that,

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uh, you, you had kind of reference Katie.

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So, um, let's, let's kind of dive a

little bit deeper into, you know, more

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specifically on how the impact of these

innovations take place, um, how they

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scale and then kind of defining what

success looks like in this context.

374

So, What are these approaches that the

Navy is taking to, to scale successful

375

innovations across its operations?

376

And this be a good leeway

into the piloting approach.

377

Katie Wildman: Yep, so we actually

have 2 different approaches.

378

We have structured piloting

and structured challenges.

379

So our structured piloting approach.

380

This is us.

381

Looking externally to industry to what

others are doing, and then once we down,

382

select items that would work best for

enterprise wide, we start this pilot.

383

And so.

384

Our pilots are looking for something

somewhere between 3 to 12 months.

385

So we are rapidly

testing out a capability.

386

Usually it is a commercial off the shelf.

387

So it caught solution.

388

So it's already existing.

389

Uh, so we're not building it,

not taking all that extra time.

390

And using that, and then we're testing it

out, seeing if it is a viable use case.

391

And then if it is, we are

working to transition it into

392

production to bring it to scale.

393

At the same time, as we're doing that,

we are looking in to divesting legacy

394

technology so that we can reinvest

it into these new technologies.

395

So kind of this whole cycle of

looking new, bringing in and then

396

divesting, uh, while we're doing that.

397

All of our tech, we are taking metrics.

398

So something called world class alignment

metrics or WAMs, Colin, here's that

399

all the time for me and our meeting.

400

Um, but we're really letting

the data speak for itself.

401

And so we are getting WAMs of the

tech coming in, how it is, is through

402

the pilot, and then we're comparing

those WAMs to what's currently in,

403

uh, production today, and so comparing

those data points and then using those

404

WAMs to either invest in the tech.

405

Or in some cases, like we choose to not

do those pilots and then we end up killing

406

it, which is fine because we're still

learning that what we have in our current

407

environment is the best thing right now.

408

So that is our structured piloting

and how we kind of get new vendors in.

409

And then in terms of structure

challenges, this is when

410

we're looking at what we have.

411

In our current environment, and we

are testing out new things, whether

412

it's a hackathon or build a thon or

comparing different types of competing

413

priorities, we are doing those

challenges so that we're constantly

414

innovating and trying to get better.

415

So, Colin went through our structure

piloting approach in our 1st year

416

and is currently in the process of.

417

Working towards continuing, proving that

out and then hopefully transitioning it.

418

Tim Winkler: Colin, how, how

was that experience going

419

through the structure piloting?

420

Uh, it was,

421

Colin Gounden: uh, it was a lot of work.

422

It's a lot of work.

423

Uh, I will say, you know, uh, Katie

mentioned one thing, which is,

424

you know, it's a failure is okay.

425

And my comment, I remember this being

brought up and my, my response back is.

426

You know, for, for Justin and Kate,

if you're running a portfolio, failure

427

is okay for you because you've got

a hundred things and it gets down.

428

Failure's not okay for us, right?

429

Failure is not an option actually.

430

Right.

431

Which pushes, I think actually it's

a good thing, which is it pushes us.

432

Like we have to deliver, I don't have

a hundred projects with the Navy,

433

but this one, and it has to work.

434

So there's a, there's a, I think

an intensity about that pressure.

435

Katie mentioned that timeframe too, right?

436

Which is, um, you know, By the way,

there's a, you know, you can do a lot

437

in 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, 12

months, but also the Navy is a gigantic

438

organization with a lot of people, right?

439

So it's not just like, oh, there's 1

person and we'll work with this 1 person.

440

It's like, uh, there's, uh, you know,

you mean, I want to say we met over

441

a 100 different stakeholders, which

is like a tiny fraction, right?

442

There's a lot of different people

you have to talk to and convince and,

443

and I think that's a, that's a thing

you need to keep in mind, right?

444

As you go through the processes, there's

a lot of stakeholder management to

445

kind of, kind of make a difference.

446

And then, um, the other, I think was, I

think we loved the idea of metrics, right?

447

So.

448

You know, there are people like

the, the world class alignment

449

metrics that Katie was referring to.

450

I think there are a lot of

organizations that are, you

451

know, Potter Stewart right there.

452

They're like that.

453

I know it when I see it and that's.

454

Super unhelpful, right?

455

As a, as a way, uh, because,

you know, there's no alignment.

456

I don't know.

457

Right?

458

I mean, you're always guessing whether

you're there or not, whether you're making

459

a difference, um, a book, uh, Justin

mentioned a book at the outset of book.

460

We, we.

461

Encourage every single, you

know, veneer to read is, um,

462

how to, how to measure anything.

463

And the background being, you know,

we can measure, you know, we can

464

measure dark matter, billions of

light years away, and we can measure

465

the speed of subatomic particles.

466

So the idea we can't measure the

difference that we're having in cyber

467

security, or the difference that we're

having around data, like some business

468

outcome, that's laziness actually, right?

469

It's like, there are met ways to

measure these things, and we just

470

need to be thoughtful about that.

471

So we loved the measurement

and metrics piece.

472

I think that's what, um, you know, it's

been, you know, it's been driving us and

473

being helpful for, for our engagement.

474

Uh, yeah.

475

Tim Winkler: I just want to dive a

little bit deeper into, you know,

476

these pilots, um, you know, say

I'm a startup founder and I'm, I'm

477

interested in, in participating.

478

You know, I think you mentioned the

length of them are three to 12 months.

479

Are there different phases of,

of these, uh, pilots and then.

480

You know, what gets you to fit

the next phase, uh, and what you

481

can expect as you kind of graduate

through these different stages.

482

Katie Wildman: Absolutely

there is because right.

483

We'd love the art of the

possible to be able to fund

484

every new idea that's coming in.

485

But unfortunately we all have a budget

and we all have to stick to that.

486

So these pilots are going to have

different use cases, whether it is, you

487

know, as Colin said, he only scratched

the surface with a hundred people.

488

Um, So figuring out like what

that use case is, because what

489

may work for one customer may

be different for someone else.

490

And so these pilots, if we're looking

just through the lens of what we

491

do at PEO digital, you know, we are

looking for things that would scale

492

enterprise wide, but you're going

to test it on a smaller use case.

493

And so you test the smaller use case,

and then you're And I'm saying this all

494

because we've done this for 2 years.

495

So it's in an iterative process.

496

So if you talk to us in 6

months, it may be more defined,

497

less defined, changed around.

498

Um, so I'm going to tell you where

we are today, but that may not be the

499

case in 6 months, which means we're

being an agile organization and doing

500

and learning from what we're doing.

501

But so these pilots will test

out, we kind of test the small

502

use case that they came in for.

503

That's where the whams come in.

504

And then typically it is when we're

moving into that production environment,

505

then we're starting to ramp up.

506

So we may do a few cycles of testing

out the pilot, making it larger.

507

We might start with 50 users and go

to 100 and 200 and so on and so forth.

508

There is some use cases where we come in

for 50 users and then it's proven out.

509

We could scale it to a million, you

know, like it really does depend

510

on the tech and where things fall.

511

Uh, but that is where we really do

work hand in hand with our partners at

512

the Navy of, you know, bringing these

vendors in, especially people that

513

may not have been with the Navy before

or may not have been in government.

514

Uh, all of our, to get into the

process, it is all public facing.

515

Anyone can submit a lien business case

and you do have to submit your WAMs.

516

So told you, you'll hear this term a lot.

517

Uh, but it's like on the public

facing website, anyone can come

518

in, submit it, and then it'll

go through a review process.

519

And then, you know, if it is deemed as a

pilot that we want to invest in, you know,

520

that is kind of how we go from there.

521

Tim Winkler: Excellent.

522

Justin, anything you want

to add to that as well?

523

Justin Fanelli: Yeah.

524

I mean, just the, uh, the thoughtful

approach that we've been fortunate

525

enough to have some time to reflect on,

um, allows us to simplify this story.

526

So we didn't invent piloting.

527

Uh, we've been doing piloting with

partners for some time, but the

528

idea of adding structure to it was

intended to increase the accessibility.

529

So we wanted to open up the

aperture to partners that are

530

potentially non conventional.

531

Uh, we want more, uh, smart, uh,

uh, American brains and, uh, partner

532

brains on these problems so that we can

solve these problems more effectively,

533

faster in a game changing way.

534

And so, for instance, um, when, when

Katie says, uh, Hey, uh, failure is okay.

535

The constraints around that or the,

uh, the, uh, conditions around that

536

are, uh, if we're not making the

same mistake over and over again.

537

Uh, and if we can kill something

quickly, and if we can use the, uh,

538

economics of capitalism to say that, uh,

Colin doesn't want failure to be okay.

539

And so how do we, uh, tune up and

make sure that we're getting the

540

most out of all of our partners so

that they can, uh, serve in a bigger

541

way than they otherwise would.

542

And that.

543

Uh, overall, the, uh, the outcomes

overmatch compared to what a control

544

group, uh, would be doing, uh, is

available to more people as a result of

545

that, uh, that sort of simplification,

uh, we're able to share this.

546

So, uh, we've worked with the army

on some of these we've worked with.

547

Uh, the special ops community,

the air force, uh, is helping

548

us with a number of things.

549

So the, the ability to kind of

connect dots and make the world

550

smaller, uh, is something that we

can do probably more effectively.

551

Uh, just not just us, but our other PEO

partners, PEO C4I is helping with these.

552

You know, MLB is connected at the hip.

553

So it ends up being a pretty big, uh,

and enlarging ecosystem as a whole.

554

Tim Winkler: But I want to,

uh, you know, kind of kick it

555

over to you, Colin, as well.

556

So, you know, obviously we kind of

talked a little bit about the, the,

557

the scope and scale of, of working with

the Navy or supporting the Navy, some.

558

You know, 500, 000 people globally,

you know, how do you kind of get on

559

board with being able to support some,

uh, an organization of that size?

560

Let's just say this goes well and

they want you to ramp things up.

561

You know, how are you kind of, you

know, internalizing this and preparing

562

yourself for that type of scale?

563

Colin Gounden: Yeah.

564

Uh, you know, a couple of things.

565

First is I think it's

566

That question, by the way, is exactly

the same question that the Navy

567

asked us during the vetting process.

568

And I want to say, Katie, you

might have been in the room when.

569

Michael S.

570

had had brought this up and he had said

very pointedly, it's like, how is it and.

571

One of the things that we, you know,

we said, look, if you're, if you can,

572

you'd also pointed out like innovation

matters and technology to solve it's

573

like technology can help support

and solve a lot of these issues.

574

If literally you wanted a hundred

thousand people or a thousand

575

people to be online and help support

the Navy, there are like a lot of

576

organizations who can do that, right?

577

There are whole services

companies who are set up.

578

That's basically the way,

you know, defense contracting

579

work for a really long time.

580

Right.

581

I think that our answer was, if you

want what you already had, which is a

582

thousand people to show up and build

something and support you, then.

583

There are a lot of people you should

go to if you're looking for a different

584

model, which is you want software

systems that are going to be intuitive

585

to use and intuitive to deploy

and easy and not require a lot of

586

training and where AI is involved in.

587

So early days of actually where we

actually showed some screenshots of,

588

hey, this is how we would support you in

1st level technical support, et cetera.

589

If that's what the direction you want to

go, then we're a better choice about that.

590

And we put our, uh, you know, we, from

a contracting perspective, we said

591

things like, hey, you know, we're going

to offer you unlimited support, right?

592

Not on a per seat basis.

593

And that means we're highly

incentivized to make the products

594

self service and easy to use.

595

And, you know, without, because

otherwise like that, cause I, you

596

know, we have to do it, right.

597

That's putting our, that's

it's making that bet.

598

This is the right direction to go.

599

I don't think a lot of

companies would do that.

600

And, you know, but they, uh,

you know, we, we felt like.

601

That was the, that's the best way

to scale and, and frankly, 1 of

602

the biggest reasons we were excited

and motivated to work with the.

603

With the Navy and with the

large is, is that scale?

604

Right?

605

So, if we're, if our mission is

around making communities, cleaner,

606

safer and more equitable, then.

607

Yeah, the Navy has literally the across

the 2 and a half 1M people full time.

608

Many more millions across.

609

Across the globe, right across, uh,

you know, across nato partners across.

610

Indo pay com partners across,

uh, contractors, et cetera.

611

So.

612

The idea that if we can have an impact

here, we're really going to have, we're

613

going to meet our mission and achieve

our objective and have a lasting impact.

614

That's that was exciting for us.

615

So we're motivated to solve that problem.

616

Tim Winkler: Very cool.

617

Yeah.

618

And I, I just want to, you know, ask one

last question to Katie just prior to, you

619

know, closing out with our final segment.

620

Um, you know, where would some of

these commercial companies go to

621

maybe identify any resources where

these solicitations are coming out?

622

I think DI, you know, DIU has obviously

been referenced, but are there any other

623

specific, uh, areas that you would point

folks to, to kind of see like what's

624

coming down the pipeline, what they

might expect in terms of opportunities?

625

Katie Wildman: So twofold to this

question, and it's not to be that standard

626

government answer of like, I don't know.

627

Um, but 1st of all, so with PO digital,

we set up an innovation adoption kit.

628

And so this is picture it to

be the table of contents of

629

here's what we do as a Navy.

630

Here's, you know.

631

The tax, the common, wow, can't say

common taxonomy of the words that we

632

use in the lexicon of here's what we do.

633

Here's what we're looking at, but we

don't want to tell what our problems are

634

because we've been doing the same thing.

635

And so we are really looking to these

outside partners to tell us, right?

636

Like, we may have a general idea or like,

Hey, we're doing this, but this is even.

637

With via, like they came to us and we're

like, here's how you can do this better.

638

Here's how you can, you know, the,

um, analysis of alternatives AOA

639

that was put out was so broad.

640

Like, I think it was a page,

maybe like a page and a half.

641

Like we didn't give anything really.

642

And so we really were looking

to our partners to tell us

643

how they could make us better.

644

And I think that's the, almost

the beauty in it is that.

645

You know, we'll give you that

table of contents of here's the

646

general things that we have, but.

647

We don't know what we don't know.

648

And so that's, we're really leaning

on them and their expertise.

649

Tim Winkler: Awesome.

650

Yeah, I love that before we kind

of put a bow on it, anything else

651

that you wanted to, to kind of put

on, on the finishing touches of,

652

of structured piloting, uh, Justin,

653

Justin Fanelli: The more we use it,

the better we get and, uh, we know

654

that, uh, these things aren't easy,

uh, but there's a book that was

655

written while we were doing this.

656

It's called, uh, Wiring for the

Winning Organization by Gene Kim, same

657

author who wrote Phoenix Project and,

uh, uh, Maybe by no coincidence, um,

658

that talks about, uh, simplification,

slowification and amplification.

659

And so we've kind of followed those

steps to make sure that this is

660

something that can spread far and wide.

661

And as long as we have partners who are

hungry, uh, open and, uh, and making

662

things happen, uh, then we can serve

harder and, uh, maybe smarter, even

663

better, uh, than we had before, uh,

uh, One thing the Marine Corps says

664

is that they want to fight smarter,

uh, and they are showing that, and

665

we're working with them to do that.

666

One thing that, uh, Navy says

is, uh, get real, get better

667

and more players on the field.

668

And so, uh, those are things that were

proven out, uh, in both cases with

669

a lot of partners on these pilots.

670

Tim Winkler: All right, we're going to,

uh, transition to our final segment,

671

which is the five second scramble.

672

So it's going to a little bit of a

rapid fire Q and a, um, some, some

673

business, some, some personal, I'm

going to start with you, Colin.

674

Um, and then, uh, I'll switch

over to, to Justin and Katie.

675

So Colin, describe via to me

as if I were a five-year-old.

676

Colin Gounden: Uh, I'd say we're

in the data protection space.

677

You know, data can be stolen, can

be misused, it can be manipulated,

678

and we help prevent those things.

679

What's the culture like

at, at Via fabulous

680

Uh, we spend, uh, I'd say unlike many

companies, our side, more than 10%.

681

Of our people, our people, people,

our folks who are focused on

682

culture values, getting back to

Justin's point about diversity.

683

When the more that you have people

from very, very different backgrounds,

684

the more you got to focus on.

685

A cohesive structure, like any great

team, like the Navy or military

686

or your favorite Olympic sports

team, cohesive culture matters.

687

And so we focus a lot on.

688

Values to demonstrate that, uh, you know,

we're all pulling in the right direction.

689

What kind of technologist thrives at

via, uh, a curious one, um, something

690

Katie said, which is you can't always

know all the problems in advance.

691

It's like, Got to have people who are

naturally curious and want to solve

692

problems and resilience is another

because we have 15 issued patents

693

wasn't because we have a research group.

694

It's because no 1 had solved this

problem before and we needed to invent

695

a solution in order to get this done.

696

And that's, uh.

697

Yeah, it turns out you have to try

a whole bunch of things that already

698

existed to realize we got that.

699

So resilient be another characteristic.

700

Tim Winkler: What is a,

uh, aside from your phone?

701

What's a tech gadget that

you can't live without?

702

Oh,

703

Colin Gounden: my gosh, uh, I'm a.

704

I, so I don't use software side.

705

I, I'm a big audible person.

706

So I listen to audio books all

the time whenever traveling.

707

And I, so I don't, it's not a tech gadget,

but it is basically that, you know, if I

708

have one app that's personal, that's going

to be the app that I probably use more.

709

I have every badge on audible, which

means there's like a hundred of them.

710

Tim Winkler: Uh, all right.

711

Last question for you.

712

Uh, what's a charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

713

Colin Gounden: There are a lot in, uh,

Massachusetts area, I think that, uh, you

714

know, but, um, the biggest 1, I think,

is there's, um, uh, the, you know, we are

715

from a national scale is things people

would have heard of our United way.

716

Right?

717

That's probably the thing that we,

you know, I don't think we support.

718

Institutionally, everybody has their

own thing, and we encourage people to do

719

what's good in your to do their heart.

720

The other is actually habitat for humanity

where actually my oldest son worked for a

721

year for habitat for humanity full time.

722

So, you know, that would

be the other big plug.

723

I would make.

724

Awesome.

725

Tim Winkler: All right, Justin and

Katie, I'm going to combo you both

726

in, uh, and bounce back and forth.

727

So I'm going to start with you, Justin.

728

Uh, what do you think is the

biggest barrier to implementing

729

new technology in the Navy?

730

Justin Fanelli: Making a

clear case of trade offs.

731

And showing that case, um, in terms of

how we see it to who we're talking to.

732

So, uh, we're working with different

communities and we need to make sure

733

that it's in clearly in their lens.

734

Um, ways that we've started to do

that is, um, Hey, are we adaptable?

735

Uh, can we move from a podcast in

the car because, uh, A Wi Fi signal

736

dies to pick up a satellite to do.

737

I mean, like, um, the adaptability

of, uh, the way that the military

738

operates is more important than ever.

739

Can we couch things in those terms,

for instance, and similarly resilience.

740

And so those are 2 key ones

that we've started translating.

741

To, um, Colin's point, uh, can we show

that numerically and with stories?

742

I think if we can translate, we can win.

743

Tim Winkler: Good stuff.

744

Um, Katie, how does the Navy foster a

culture of innovation amongst its ranks?

745

Katie Wildman: I will only speak

to the team that I'm on, but we

746

are very much a bachelors team.

747

So the number one rule we always have is.

748

Never make a decision based on the

size of your sandbox and recognizing

749

that everyone around you may be

smarter in a different topic.

750

And so we really do work on reminding

ourselves that, you know, at the

751

end of the day, we're doing what's

best for the warfighter, and

752

we're here to help the warfighter.

753

So it's not about.

754

Where we fall in the different

badges and different ranks.

755

It's about like, how are we

going to make the most impact?

756

Tim Winkler: Justin, what are

some of the tech roles that you're

757

currently hiring for the Navy?

758

Justin Fanelli: Love that.

759

So team player doers, uh, are the

characteristics clouds, me dev sec ops,

760

me leads in these places, pilot owners.

761

We're looking for versatile lists

who can pull things over the line.

762

And so like, whether you're a quantum

specialist or not is less important

763

than whether you have a track record

of delivery and to Colin's point about

764

diversity, if you've shown you can do

that somewhere in tech and you've learned

765

one or two domains, like your depth of

expertise is potentially less important

766

than your ability to learn in it.

767

Uh, unless we're talking about something

like nuclear, but, uh, across the board.

768

We have a lot of opportunities right

now, and we're going to build a team of A

769

players to extend the team of A players.

770

Tim Winkler: Katie, what's the area of

defense tech modernization that you're

771

excited to see in the next five years?

772

Quantum.

773

Katie Wildman: That is most excited.

774

Yeah.

775

Tim Winkler: Awesome.

776

All right.

777

We're going to switch to

a few, uh, fun questions.

778

Uh, what's, what's a favorite

app on your phone, Justin?

779

Justin Fanelli: Well, Colin took

mine, uh, and then I thought

780

you were going to ask gadget.

781

And so I was going to say, uh, my

portable charger that my girlfriend

782

just saved me an hour a day.

783

Yeah, okay.

784

So favorite app on the phone?

785

Uh, well, I like Libby even

more than audible because it's

786

free Uh, and it goes up to 3.

787

5 speed as opposed to just uh,

I think three on the audible.

788

Uh, but uh Maybe linkedin Because,

uh, it allows us to connect and,

789

uh, and make our community smaller.

790

Dual use is kind of, uh,

a lot of different places.

791

Um, sometimes people talk about

defense sector as a sector.

792

I think it's a launch pad for all 11

sectors, uh, and where we can connect

793

to people or where people are asking

questions that they weren't before.

794

Uh, that's probably a

top, top three app for me.

795

Tim Winkler: Last question for you, Katie.

796

And then I know you got to jump.

797

Uh, what's the worst fashion

trend you ever followed?

798

Katie Wildman: Ooh, this is fun.

799

Please don't say

800

Tim Winkler: vest.

801

Please don't say vest.

802

Say

803

Katie Wildman: vest.

804

I think the worst fashion trend I ever

did was, um, in high school I thought

805

it was really cool to wear pajamas

for, like, weeks at a time, but I

806

would wear them with cowboy boots.

807

I already mentioned I'm from up north.

808

That makes no sense whatsoever.

809

So, um, yeah, that was a bad one.

810

I'm really happy.

811

There's no photos.

812

Tim Winkler: I don't know if that's

coming back, but I see kids in the

813

gym wearing pajamas and I'm like,

what are you, what are you doing?

814

How do you take yourself

seriously in here?

815

Yeah, no.

816

Thank you guys for, for joining us.

817

It was a great discussion.

818

Uh, insights on the transformative

process that's happening across the

819

defense tech space is obviously super

important, uh, and meaningful to a lot

820

of these smaller companies that are

trying to get involved in, in transform,

821

uh, you know, defense at large.

822

And so thank you for your

feedback and what you're doing

823

for streamlining everything.

824

And thanks for our listeners

for tuning in and thank you

825

all for joining us on the pod.