Where is your identity rooted? It’s a critical question to answer as nearly every issue we deal with goes back to our identity.

In this week’s episode, Joshua Harrel shares his own struggles with identity issues and why our own opinions of identity are often unreliable and inconsistent.

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No Grey Areas is a motivational podcast with captivating guests centered around how our choices humanize, empower, and define who we become. This podcast is inspired by the cautionary tale, No Grey Areas, written by Joseph Gagliano. Learn more about the truth behind his story involved with sports' biggest scandal at nogreyareas.com

Host

You're listening to the No Gray Areas podcast with Patrick McCullough. Today's guest is Josh Terrell, husband, father and nurse. Josh guides us into rooting our identity in the right places. Let's dove in.

Patrick McCalla

Josh, welcome to the No Gray Areas podcast. This podcast is all about living on purpose for a purpose in your story. Certainly is going to fit into that. When I when I met you and I heard some of your story, I thought some words that apply really well. And so these were I jotted these down today. Courageous warrior, tenacious, broken, humble, dependent on Jesus.

Patrick McCalla

I think our audience is going to see how those fit well for you. But you and your wife recently started a ministry called Restored Living. Tell us a little bit about that and why you started it.

Josh Harrel

Yeah. So so little background on us. We've been married for almost ten years. We're celebrating our 10th anniversary this year.

Patrick McCalla

Congratulations.

Josh Harrel

Thank you. Yes. Feels like a huge milestone, especially in the context of just our bigger story. But Restored Living was a ministry that was really born out of just a burden that was placed on our hearts to see people rebuild, restore, renew their lives to the purpose that God has for them. And that's really our mission, is we want to equip people to experience the fullness of life in Jesus.

Josh Harrel

And for us, like, I think we've realized for a lot of a lot of ministries, a lot of movements, it was born out of our own story. It was born out of our own pain, our own brokenness, our own hurt. And and God has really taken that and redeemed it. And so kind of the origins of it really back in 20, 18, you know, we've been married for six years now.

Josh Harrel

So we had a couple of kids, we had our oldest son and our youngest was just, I mean, a little over a year old and, and I had been for several years kind of off and on battling anxiety and depression in kind of various forms. It started back in like 20, 16 and for a couple of years it was just a cyclical thing I would go through and some of it was seasonal, some of it was just sporadic.

Josh Harrel

And I had gone to therapy.

Patrick McCalla

Because you're from the Oregon area. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Harrel

So it's always worse in the winter. Yeah. I mean, you just I think everyone has a low grade seasonal depression organ.

Patrick McCalla

You don't see the sun for one.

Josh Harrel

Oh, yeah. You're like, Oh, wow, the sky, it's still there. Yeah. But you know, it was a couple of years of this and I'd seen, you know, a couple of different counselors. I was on medication and and my wife Jalen, she just noticed I wasn't there was just something missing, like something wasn't clicking. And so she actually sought out therapy herself.

Josh Harrel

To, to ask, like, how can I help him? Like, what do, what do I do? Like, this anxiety, this depression will go away. And her counselor, who actually had we had known for years because her and her husband used to work in our church, she was like, I think Josh would really benefit from seeing, you know, one of our one of our therapists here.

Josh Harrel

And so I was like, OK, I'll I'll give it another go. I was, I was.

Patrick McCalla

And were you open to that right away? Yeah. I think I had done it.

Josh Harrel

So much that I was kind of like, OK, I can I can see doing that again. And, and so I, I don't know what it was about this particular person, this particular season of my life, but I think I was just, I had spent so many years just building up an image of myself that I, that had it all together, that things were good.

Josh Harrel

I was open and vulnerable to the extent that it wouldn't it wouldn't taint someone's image of me. But I wasn't so open and vulnerable to the extent that I would really get down to the depth of things that I was going through.

Patrick McCalla

And so just out of curiosity, you and I talked about this before. What Enneagram number are you?

Josh Harrel

I am a six. OK, yeah. So so I tend to while I say that and then I've in recent months been like, I'm a six, I'm a two. I don't know I kind of yeah, yeah. I kind of feel a little bit of both. But I remember going into this season of therapy and I remember walking into the room and I just I don't know what it honestly, I don't know what it was.

Josh Harrel

I think it was just the Holy Spirit being like, it's, it's time. You've got it. You've got to dig into the deeper stuff now. And I remember in that session just pouring out everything to this, this counsel. I mean, I remember her face. It was like, so she was just in shock.

Patrick McCalla

You had been holding in a lot of stuff. And part of that was because of the image like you hold a lot. Yeah. And part of that, I think in the audience, all of our audience listening. Oh yeah. We all resonate with that. This will give 80% of the truth or 60% of the truth, but we're going to hold back the part that might taint our image.

Josh Harrel

Yep, exactly. And I think part of it too, was just growing up in the church. I, I grew up in a time in the church and even, even still now I think it's something we're working on where the things that I was wrestling through were really hard things to talk about. There were things that, that weren't very open.

Josh Harrel

Josh Harrel

I had struggles with pornography and lost and addiction in that sense, because that felt.

Patrick McCalla

That was OK to share that.

Josh Harrel

Yeah, because there was always kind of like, oh, you know, like a general understanding, like people you were you were asked to open up about those things. There was space provided for those things in the time, which I was grateful for because I can't imagine having not shared all of that too. But then when it came to the issue of I only would call it the issue when it came to the topic of of sexuality.

Josh Harrel

And for me as somebody who who had since my, you know, early teen years really struggled with same sex attraction, I didn't have a safe space to talk about that. And when you hold something like that in for, you know, over a decade of your life and you don't have what should be the safest place. Right. I felt like, you know, my church was my home, like that was my family.

Josh Harrel

And I didn't feel safe to acknowledge.

Patrick McCalla

That that was your family. But it was the one place that was really not safe. Right. That's how you felt.

Josh Harrel

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I had had some some instances and some experiences with with family, with church, where I had seen their reactions to other people's struggles in the same area, whether it was comments that they made or judgments that they would make or jokes that they would make. Right. All out of, I think, just ignorance it wasn't out of there was never willful malice or anything.

Josh Harrel

It was just a misunderstanding. Right. And so I very early learned or learned very early on, this is not a safe thing to talk about in the church is the safe thing to talk about in your home. And so I kept it to myself for several years. And what that did is it really it created this this wrestle of identity where because now if you look at the culture that we're in now, this is this is one of the things that vies for people wise people's identity more than anything.

Josh Harrel

I mean, you look at our our middle schools, our high schools, you look at legislature, you look at just the cultural, you look at even churches and how they're starting to shift their their beliefs or their focus or kind of pulling back from this topic because it is so deeply interwoven with identity, not because it's meant to be the core of who we are, but because culture has made it such and such a key identifier.

Josh Harrel

Right. You know, you see you just see how it's woven in. And so for myself, I didn't know how to express that. And so when I when I did finally open up about that in 20, 18 you know, the first time was with my counselor. That was the first time that actually.

Patrick McCalla

How old were you at that time?

Josh Harrel

About 20.

Patrick McCalla

Six or 20.

Josh Harrel

26 years old. And that feels like.

Patrick McCalla

A weight.

Josh Harrel

Off you. Oh my gosh. I felt so relieved. And I remember sharing it with my counselor and then over it was about a week and a half between that point and where I finally I remember the moment where I told my wife Jalen that I needed to have a conversation with her. Right. Which no spouse wants to hear those words because it's usually not.

Josh Harrel

We never had those kinds of conversations. And I think that was one thing, too, is that we we spent the first several years of our marriage really operating on We're good, everything's good. We had everyone talked about how great our marriage seemed like.

Patrick McCalla

We very much image thing again.

Josh Harrel

Absolutely. And you feed off of that. That becomes a part of your identity, too. You're like you identify with the guy who's a good Christian guy who serves on the worship team, who has a great marriage, who's in a successful career, who has kids who is, you know, connected into the church. Like those were my those were my identity just as much as as my sexuality was becoming a part of my identity, too.

Josh Harrel

And so to willfully lay that down and totally, you know, annihilate that identity was a huge decision. And so I remember having that conversation with her and and you talk about a weight being lifted off your shoulders. I mean, I remember telling her and it was like, oh, my gosh, this is like the one thing that I've kept from her for years, right?

Josh Harrel

Like, this is the one thing I didn't feel safe to, which, of course, in that moment, I feel relief. But you can imagine in that moment for her. Yeah, her whole understanding of our relationship changed in an instant because she she even though I wasn't ready to share it and I think there was some valid reasons behind that, it was still me withholding information from her that pertains to us.

Josh Harrel

Right. And so she suddenly had all these questions, and rightfully so. Like, you know, what, what does this mean for us? What does this mean for our marriage? What does this mean for our, you know, what our marriage has been so far, so many questions that came from that. And and I was like, I don't know. You know, I don't I mean, I'm in the midst of just first, you know, vocalizing this myself.

Josh Harrel

And and so I remember during that season for us, you know, as we're both going through counseling her for herself and just kind of understanding this me for myself and then us as a couple, it was it was kind of like once we once we opened that door, all of the all of the things that were underneath all of that for me just came flooding out.

Josh Harrel

Yeah. Because there was so much so many beliefs that I had about myself that that was tied to so many beliefs that I had about who I was or who I wasn't that that were under that surface. And so.

Patrick McCalla

You know, and that's the key. That's the key here because again, to the listeners, there may be some they're going, well, I don't have those some of those same struggles. But when we go back to the identity, it's really the core of all of our issues, isn't it?

Josh Harrel

Yep, absolutely.

Patrick McCalla

So your beliefs about who you are, who you are.

Josh Harrel

Yeah. Yeah. And where you where you root yourself. I mean, if you think about it, if you root your identity in something the fruit of your life is going to be representative of where you've where you planted your roots. And so.

Patrick McCalla

Oh, man. Well, OK, say that again. That's good.

Josh Harrel

That's good. So so where wherever you root your identity, wherever you plant yourself, the fruit that comes out of your life will be representative of where your roots are. And for me, I had for so many years rooted myself in the way that I was presenting myself and and who other people believed I was, that that the fruit that came out of that was this this attachment to how other people saw me and this belief that if I didn't keep that up, that suddenly I, I wasn't going to be worthy.

Josh Harrel

I was going be worthy of their respect. I was going to be worthy of their love or their attention or their acceptance. And then even as even as we began to navigate this journey together and I started to open up about these other parts of myself, it very it was interesting because I very quickly shifted my identity and my identity rather than, you know, I want I wish I could say that immediately.

Josh Harrel

I was like, I'm all surrender to God. And he's just coming in. He is redeemed in this area. My life. And it's amazing. And I think sometimes we think that's how it's going to be when we finally open up. Like this is going to be the moment where my you know, my relationship with God is just taken to another level.

Josh Harrel

And the reality was for me, it wasn't I, I opened up. It's always a journey, isn't it? Oh, it's always been this. And we so think it's just going to be this uphill, like we're just going to walk and it's going to be incrementally better and better and better. But the reality is, guys like it's, it's an up and down and it's you're going to hit points in the journey that you don't expect.

Josh Harrel

Josh Harrel

I was like, I need something to validate me.

Patrick McCalla

To go back to the analogy you used, you ripped those roots out, that tree falls down. So like your jaw, you just fallen, you've collapsed, and you're trying to figure out.

Josh Harrel

And I'm just reaching for nourishment, you know, like I'm just trying to find somewhere to eat. Like you imagine, like you rip a plant out of the ground. It's thirsty. It's it's removed from nutrients. It's removed from everything that it needs for survival and for flourishing. And so that's where I was. I was just I was grasping at anything.

Josh Harrel

And so over the next few months, you know, as Jay is kind of really leaning in to the Lord and really just seeking out wisdom. And we, you know, we brought a few people into that journey with us just because we knew we needed support. And, you know, she I knew especially for her, she needed close people to talk to.

Josh Harrel

I needed people to process with. And as she was, we kind of moved in different directions. You know, she was as was growing and and learning more about herself and just her identity in Christ. I was I couldn't have been moving further from that. I was so I'm living so angry. Really? Yeah. I was so angry with God.

Josh Harrel

I was so mad. I was like, why? What have I done to deserve this? You know, like, why? And again, this is where I was putting my identity in this one thing, right?

Patrick McCalla

With some of your anger out of I you know, I open myself up. I became transparent and honest. Everything should be working now. Yeah.

Josh Harrel

There was a little bit of that of, like, God, why I'm trying to do the right thing, I think is what where it came down to where I was like, I'm trying to do the right thing, so why aren't you making this better? And even in that my I was looking for security and and my identity in external circumstances, you know, I wanted things around me to look better and to be better.

Josh Harrel

And if they weren't, then something was wrong. And so I just I just I mean, from there, I just like like I said, I spiraled. I started seeking approval in all the wrong places. It led me down the road of, you know, emotional infidelity, led me down, you know, depression, self-harm, suicidal thoughts. Like it just was, you know, it was fast.

Josh Harrel

Josh Harrel

And I get there and I say hello or whatever. And we go into the first day of this conference and we listen to this couple that we had known for a large conference. It was a business conference, but a lot of it was kind of business marriage. Like it was very, very kind of inclusive conference of all those things.

Josh Harrel

And this couple that we kind of gotten to know a little bit came on stage and they just started sharing their testimony. And the husband talked about how he become an alcoholic and how he had to open up about that to his wife in order for them to move, for him to heal and for them to move forward.

Josh Harrel

And and it was it was like, I'll never remember such a defining moment where the Holy Spirit was like, you have to do like he put it on my heart that I had to do something. I had to take action. I had to make a choice because this was where am I going to let am I going to let my identity be rooted?

Josh Harrel

And again, the image that everything is good, that everything's OK because that's what I had always done, or am I going to let my identity be rooted in Christ and, and, and step forward in honesty and allow him to kind of handle the outcomes of things. And so.

Patrick McCalla

Patrick McCalla

You had to be willing to kill these image things that you had in order for you to really live. Yeah. And that was a painful process. Yeah. Hearing. So OK, go on.

Josh Harrel

Yeah. No, absolutely. It was because my what I found for myself as so much of my identity was wrapped up in controlling things around me. So if I could control how other people responded to me, if I could control how other people saw me, then I felt secure in who I was. And in this moment I was going to I knew that I had to make the choice to allow myself to be fully seen where I actually was in and all the things I had actually done.

Josh Harrel

And I had no control over what was going to come back at me. And so I remember sitting down and I remember, you know, I sitting in our hotel room and she's just talking about the day and oh, my gosh, isn't that great? That's so great. And I was just I was silent. Yeah, I was absolutely silent. I said, Hey, I need to tell you something.

Josh Harrel

And so I.

Patrick McCalla

Was three months before were you and I had this other conversation, right?

Josh Harrel

Yeah. And so she's thinking, we're making progress, you know, all these things. And and I sat down and I told her, and I will never forget this moment because it is the most is the closest encounter I've ever had with Jesus in my entire life. And and I get emotional every time I think about it because and I have to this is where I have to take myself back to it because I sat there and I told her what I had done, and I'm fully expecting anger.

Josh Harrel

I'm expecting her to walk out. I think this is it. It's done. And just prior to this, I remember God just whispering to my heart. I didn't hear him but I felt it. And he said, I need you to be honest and I need you to trust me with the outcome. And so it was.

Patrick McCalla

An outcome, like you said earlier, that was out of your control.

Josh Harrel

That completely. I mean, I was I was relinquishing all control of what happened next. Wow. And she looked at me and it was it was almost like she doesn't even remember this moment. Or she does. But but we both just felt like it was this total Holy Spirit moment, because she looked at me and she just said, you know, I want to be so mad at you right now.

Josh Harrel

But I just look at you and I just love you.

Patrick McCalla

Wow.

Josh Harrel

And I just, like I was speechless. I didn't know what to say. I mean, I had just I had just confessed to this woman that I was married to, that I had been unfaithful. And her response was love. Like, how is that not like Jesus? Yeah, in every I mean, we are so unfaithful to him over and over and over again.

Josh Harrel

And his response, we forget. But his response is always.

Patrick McCalla

Like open arms.

Josh Harrel

Always open arms. And we're willing to be more we're willing to admit what we've done. It's always going to be met with love, not condemnation. And that was, I think, for me, the turning point of starting to recognize I had put him and putting my identity and my security, because to me, identity for me at least, identity is security.

Josh Harrel

Like where where I identify as where I find my security because it's it's who I am, it's what I am, it's what I believe. It's all those things wrapped into one. Like that's for, for my personality. I find saying, well, then.

Patrick McCalla

That makes sense. Because, you know, earlier when you were talking I kept hearing you use the word control, control and control. So that's the security, right? If your identity is wrapped up in security, which you have to control that. Yeah, if you can't control it, there's no security. Right. Exactly. That's what we.

Josh Harrel

Think. Exactly. And the beautiful thing about when we start to place our identity in Christ is that crisis and need to be control. Like we don't have to control any of who he is.

Patrick McCalla

OK, we got to unpack this a little bit. First of all, we're having your wife on next week. She's going to be on the podcast. So you're going to hear things from her side and just sharing. And I mean, again, when I talk about courageous is a word that I would use for you being willing to be honest and transparent, the courage that she had to do and walk with you in this journey and confront her demons as well.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah, but you just touched on something that's so important because again, we throw around and and identity is an issue. I remember I was speaking on identity one time, identity in Christ at a church. And afterwards a counselor came up to me and said, you know what, Pat? Every issue I deal with really goes back to the issue of identity.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. The problem with our culture in society, though, is that when we talk about where we're going to have our identity is it's all identity issues. But where do we actually find the answers then?

Josh Harrel

Right.

Patrick McCalla

So you you just touched on something that I think is key identity and Christ use that word. Yeah. Unpack that a little bit for us.

Josh Harrel

Well, I think, you know, a lot of times are our natural propensity because we are living this life out on earth. And sometimes we we often lose our internal perspective, right? Where we're just seeing the day to day. It becomes this natural pull to find things in the here and now that are that that make up who we are, that identify.

Josh Harrel

So maybe it's a career, maybe it's your marriage, maybe it's a certain passion you have, maybe it's certain characteristics of yourself, right? And so we for whatever reason, we want that again, we want something to tell us who we are. I think we're craving to know who we really are underneath everything that everyone else sees. We just we want to have a deep sense of knowing who we really are.

Josh Harrel

The problem with putting our identity in temporal things is that they always change. They're not consistent, they're not reliable.

Patrick McCalla

And so it's interesting that the very first chapter of the Bible starts to speak to our identity. Yeah, right. So it's clearly God knew how important identity issues were yes. Because in the very first chapter, he started to tell us. Yeah. Who we are. Yeah. So but what we've done as human beings is we've run from that and we try to find it in other things.

Patrick McCalla

Yep.

Josh Harrel

Because we want we want something tangible. We want something. And again, I think sometimes we want a sense of control. I get to say who I am. No one else gets to tell me who I am. And the way.

Patrick McCalla

Is that the American way, right? I mean, yes, I love our country. I think we have the greatest country in the world. But there's some there are some broken parts of it. And that's one of them is this whole idea of like, you know, it's it's me, it's independence. I get to choose. I get to what? Yep. Is anti biblical.

Josh Harrel

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Because because at the end of the day, even if we choose our identity, we're not reliable. Like, as human beings, we change, we ebb, we flow are. That's great. We're not consistent. You know what I mean? We can be consistent at times, but over time, you look at the history of humanity. We are not consistently one way.

Josh Harrel

We are constantly changing what we think is good, what we think is bad, what's right, what's wrong, what's what's a value, what's not a value. And so if we are the ones determining our identity, it's going to be a really insecure place. And I think that's what's so.

Patrick McCalla

Especially like what you're saying is so good, Josh, because even as you age. Yeah, like let's say someone is a great athlete, their identity is wrapped up in that they're going to lose their athleticism at some point. So I'm Melissa, your your identity is wrapped up in being a speaker on a stage someday. You're not going to be on that stage anymore.

Patrick McCalla

And so you're going to so as humans, we're always morphing, changing, aging and if it's if our identities wrapped in those temporal things, that's what you're saying, right? If our if our identity is wrapped up in temporal things, we're going to be lost right over and over again.

Josh Harrel

Josh Harrel

I mean as funny as it sounds, it was God's grace that what happened happened because it revealed to us more than just the things in our marriage that needed work or whatever. It revealed to us that we were not putting our identity. We weren't we were finding ourselves in him. We were finding ourselves in in our marriage and in in the image that we had there.

Josh Harrel

And it's not that we had to peel.

Patrick McCalla

Back layers to feel.

Josh Harrel

Oh, yeah, right. Absolutely. It's a time and it took months. And and there was, you know, a lot of conversations that led us to the point of realizing that. But the funny thing is that we think we we think we have more control when we choose these temporal things to put our identity in. We think I'm choosing to you know, you know, so like back to my story with sexuality.

Josh Harrel

The, the, the narrative that my brain wants to believe is that if I choose to identify X way, I'm making a decision about who I am, and thus I have control over it, I have security in it, the reality is that there's not a more insecure place for me to place my identity than in in something that I am choosing for myself because I am inconsistent and I am unreliable and my emotions change.

Josh Harrel

And how I how I think changes in and the world around me changes.

Patrick McCalla

But I just I hope that the listeners will take what you just said and really process that. That's I.

Josh Harrel

Mean, I'm processing as I'm saying.

Patrick McCalla

I'm beginning processing it. I'm going to be processing it for the next hours. Yeah. That's deep that if again, we want so much to believe that I get to choose my identity but I'm in consist and my emotions are inconsistent. Yeah. It's not going to land me on a firm foundation to do that. That's what you're saying. Yeah.

Josh Harrel

And to think about how much more freeing like if we would just remove ourselves from our finite view of life for just a moment and we look at the bigger picture if, if we're, if those of us who are followers of Jesus, especially if we remove ourselves, then we go, OK, if we believe that God is overall in all through all that everything is made by him, for him, through him, myself, everything around me that he sees the beginning of time, the end of time and everything in between, why would I not once, why would I not believe that who he says I am is probably the most secure place I can find myself, you

Josh Harrel

Josh Harrel

And its value and its worth. And the beautiful thing about about God is that his opinions of us, well, he isn't have opinions enough of us. He has truth of us right so they don't they don't waver. They don't change that. We have opinions of ourselves.

Patrick McCalla

And opinion, and they waiver.

Josh Harrel

They waiver, they change. So you might be really confident in your identity one day, but all it takes is one little thing to happen outside of you. And you might think the worst of yourself the next day. And the crazy thing about God is that He has always and will always believe because it's true, because it's who He is.

Josh Harrel

He will always believe the same things about us.

Patrick McCalla

What are some of the things that he believes about us? Let's say there's someone listening. Maybe somebody does need to be reminded they've heard this before. Maybe some have never heard some of these things before. But what are some things that God believes about us? They consistently believes about us?

Josh Harrel

Well, I think for me because they're truth. Because they're truth. Exactly. And one of the things I always have to remind myself because I can often and maybe other people can identify with this, too, but I often can be very critical of myself, of even in this journey for myself, the last several years, I mean, this is still a process.

Josh Harrel

I'm four years in to this journey, and I'm still learning what it means to put my identity in Christ. And I can get really frustrated with myself.

Patrick McCalla

I always say we never graduate from Jesus school. No, we never graduate from life. It just it's it's ongoing as long as we're.

Josh Harrel

Always working in it. Yeah. And even the truth of scripture that says you are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yeah. Those words alone. If just repeating those words over myself to remind myself I am fearfully and wonderfully made, that means that God had intention with when he made me, I wasn't flippant, I wasn't an accident. I wasn't some copy and paste like he intentionally created me.

Josh Harrel

You know, when it scripture talks about how he us together in our mother's womb, like he is so intentional about us and it's every single person. He's not just intentional for that person. He doesn't just it's not just that person who is wonderfully made. You know, we can start to look at other people, I think, and start to really shape our identity around the comparison of other people.

Josh Harrel

And who they look like compared to who we think we are. And just.

Patrick McCalla

Those two things that you just said should help because I think a lot of people struggle with comparison that right.

Josh Harrel

Those two people, and especially in our country now, you're kidding me. Like, Oh, it's me. I mean, I can pull up my phone right now. I could put through Instagram and I'm going to see everyone's best day. Yep. And I'm in the middle of my worst. Yep. And I think all these things suddenly I think all these things about myself, I'm not a good enough provider.

Josh Harrel

I'm not a I'm not a good enough husband. I'm not a good enough dad. I'm not a good enough. This I'm not a successful enough. I haven't earned enough money. Those are all things that start to play into our identity. And they're coming completely from a place of comparison to someone else's highlight reel. Right but but again, if we go back to Scripture, which is truth, if we believe that Scripture is truth, then what God says about us that we're fearfully and wonderfully made, that does not change.

Josh Harrel

So on your worst day, I have a I've a good friend of mine who I was texting him just the other day. I was having a particularly really hard day, and I was just processing with him and and he he said, you know, God, when you are at your lowest and in deepest in your sin, do you realize that God looks at you just the same as when you're your most connected with him?

Josh Harrel

He doesn't his perspective of us doesn't.

Patrick McCalla

Shift that truth right there rocked my world so much. Yeah. So when you talk about identity with you and we we have different stories. Yeah. But that's why I think I connected with your story so much because the same with me. I was on a trip, I was in Fiji. I was reading this book called The Ragamuffin Gospel.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah. You probably been in Manning? Yeah. And that truth. What? I'd heard it my whole life because I grew up in church, but for some reason, laying on that bed, reading that that day, it hit me and I and I rolled off on the floor and I started weeping because I realized that in the most disgusting, embarrassing moment that I would never share publicly, probably yeah, God love me as much in that moment than he did in my best moments.

Patrick McCalla

Yep. That's that's life changing, isn't it?

Josh Harrel

And that changes how you see yourself because you finally, for a moment, you start to see yourself through the lens of how God sees you, which is the only the only truth that really matters. And the way anyone else sees you, the way you see yourself is really is insignificant. And in in light of eternity. Right. Because, again, we don't have the capacity to see the wholeness of we don't we don't even understand the wholeness of who we were made to be.

Josh Harrel

Like. We don't we don't we don't see ourselves as our full we don't see everything that God sees of who we are because he made us. So He sees the parts of ourselves that we don't even quite see yet. And he understands with compassion the parts of ourselves that we shame ourselves for.

Patrick McCalla

Yeah.

Josh Harrel

And he he looks at those parts and he's just like, I still love you. Like, I don't it's you're not going to I think sometimes we think that we, we somehow we're going to have the ability or the ability to, to outrun the love of God or to outrun the grace of God or to think that, oh, there's, there's a there's some kind of there has to be a threshold because in every other relationship there is.

Josh Harrel

Right? Every other relationship, any human relationship, there is a threshold that you hit. And when you hit that point, people don't have the capacity to love perfectly. We don't have the capacity for that. So it's hard for us to understand that God would have it, that God would have this consistent love for us. It's hard for us to understand that we can actually root our identity and who he says we are, because in his opinion, we are going to change just like other people's, just like my own right.

Josh Harrel

But we superimpose who we are, who other people are on God rather than seeing God for who He is and letting his truth be something that is superimposed onto our lives.

Patrick McCalla

I hope our listeners aren't missing this pattern just from from almost start of this podcast today, there's been this pattern that you keep coming back to where we can't trust our opinion of ourselves. We can't trust the opinion of others of ourselves. It's changing. It's going to morph. There's only one place where we can truly find the foundation and it's the opinion of our creator.

Josh Harrel

Yep. Because he knows. Yeah. I mean, he knit every part of us together. He's saw he's seen our whole life from the beginning. Of time. He's known every moment, every decision we make, every I mean, before Jesus went to the cross, he knew every sin we would commit, every single one, and he knew it was all coming and he still sent for the joy set before him.

Josh Harrel

He endured the cross. Right? So what when I think about it, when I you know, some people will say that it's illogical to put our identity in a God we can't see. Like, that's not logical. But when I think about it, is there a more logical place to put my security than something that doesn't change because logically, why would you put your security and your identity into something that you know is going to change if you know, culture is going to change, if you know society's going to change, if you know what's popular is going to change if you know how you feel about yourself is going to change, then why would you want any

Josh Harrel

of those things to determine something? Because clearly we believe identity is important because we're all trying to find our identity in something. So we wouldn't we wouldn't work so hard to create this identity if we didn't believe there was value in it. And if there's something that's not valuable, why would we not want to put it in a secure place?

Josh Harrel

Like, why would we not want to put it somewhere that we know? If I put it here, it doesn't matter what what else happens outside of me. It doesn't matter what anyone else says. I'm going to be secure. Yeah. I'm going to know who I am. And and it doesn't change with the seasons. And I think there's it can look like giving up your freedom to the world.

Josh Harrel

But and I've and I've heard that many times. Well, don't you want to just be free to be who you are? Don't you want to just be free to live how you feel, you know, feel led to live? No, because I've done that. And when I, when I let my identity be led by my desires or I let my identity be led by my emotions, it has never led me to a place of security is always left me lacking.

Josh Harrel

It's always left me lonely. It's always left me isolated. And but when I choose to even in the hard seasons say I'm going to put my identity in Jesus, because he's the one thing that's consistent. It does it. It's like the circumstances around me don't change. They never they never have. That's never changed my circumstances, but has always changed my perspective.

Josh Harrel

And it's always changed my understanding.

Patrick McCalla

Circumstances not changed or perspective of the circumstances change.

Josh Harrel

And I think that's more powerful because I think when your perspective changes, but the circumstances don't you see everything around you through a new light. You see everything through through a lens that maybe other people don't have the haven't haven't taken the opportunity to see it through. And you learn something more. You learn more of who God is.

Josh Harrel

We don't learn. For me, I've not learned new things of who God is in seasons where everything is going really well or where my circumstances have changed. The times where I've learned who He really is is when my perspective shifts. But my situation is the same because I realize, wow, he is so much bigger than all of this.

Josh Harrel

And this is so temporal and it's so finite. And these things that feel like they're monumental when put in the perspective of eternity, they're minuscule, but they become they become powerful ways to you know, I look at my story now so far and I look at the the opportunities that we've had to even while still being in the mess of it and in the middle of it all and walking through it, the opportunities we've had to share the gospel, the opportunities that we've had to bring hope to other people who are hopeless, whether it's in their marriage or or just other areas of their life.

Josh Harrel

It's given so much meaning to all of that. And I think if I had kept my identity rooted in these temporal things, I never would have seen the meaning and in the hard stuff that we've walked through. Yeah, right. It would have been useless. It would've been we're all going to walk through pain. Yeah. But if we want our pain to have some kind of meaning to it and some kind of purpose, to it, then I think it requires us to to surrender this idol of our identity that the world wants us to take up.

Josh Harrel

Because in this world, there is an idolatry of our identity. And if we can manufacture this identity that makes us appear pleasing to the world, that makes us appear like we have figured it out, then that is that is like that is the good stuff of life. And the reality is it's all it's all facade no.

Patrick McCalla

What I love I love what you just said there. We could talk all day. You don't have to be I'm going to have to land the plane here. But when you just talked about the in our culture, there's this idolatry of identity that's so good because some some listeners might be confused right now in saying, well, I thought you were putting identity like up on this throne.

Patrick McCalla

And it's not. That's the difference. When we put my identity on the throne and I get to choose my identity, that's when it becomes an idol. The difference is God's on the.

Josh Harrel

Throne, right? When we put our identity in him.

Patrick McCalla

And I'm seeing my identity through God on the throne and what he says about me. So you guys have this incredible ministry restored living. Yeah. So how does how does someone if there's a listener that wants to to jump in, you guys have a podcast. Yeah. So it could reach out to you.

Josh Harrel

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we have a couple of different ways. One, we do have a podcast that just launched this last year. It's been awesome. We've been, especially this year, centering a lot around having conversations so far with other couples, but just bringing other stories of redemption and restoration. Right? Because we the imagery of restoration was something that was given to first to Jalen and then to both of us kind of in the midst of that first year of our journey through all of this.

Josh Harrel

And God really just bringing bringing into our hearts the truth that like, hey, I am the God who restores the broken things and the beauty. The thing we love about restoration is that it's not about making it like it was before, but it's actually about it's about bringing it into fullness of what God intended it to be in some.

Josh Harrel

And oftentimes the it's you see the broken parts of it, right? Because they speak to what he's done. And so so we have the podcast, the Restored Living podcast you can find on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all that stuff we also have restored Living Instagram, so we're definitely active on there. That's a great way to get in touch with us too.

Josh Harrel

If you DM us on there, if you want to, you know, a lot of times we'll that's how we'll connect with with other couples or people who are just struggling with issues of identity and whatever it might be, right? Could be sexuality, could be a myriad of things. And then we have you know, restored living ministries is is just something that's kind of growing and expanding.

Josh Harrel

And so there will be more that comes with that. But right now, those two, the podcast and Instagram are probably best ways to get in touch with us so.

Patrick McCalla

Well, and I don't want people to mess again. I'm going to say it that next week your wife is going to be on and I think she's going to share. Oh, my gosh. I just.

Josh Harrel

She's.

Patrick McCalla

A different perspective.

Josh Harrel

Understand the powerhouse that that woman is. She she is she is someone who is consistently pursuing truth. And and what I mean by that, she's consistently pursuing Jesus because she knows that when she does truth is the fruit that comes from that. And and you guys will hear that next week as you hear her speak because she just when she opens up her mouth and speaks, there's powerful things that are said so so what?

Patrick McCalla

Leave us with this. I'm going to ask you for two truths in a lie in a moment. We always do this with all our guests, but leave us with this. What practical advice would you give? We've talked about some really deep things here. And for myself and the listeners, what practical advice would you give us to help us moving toward truth in our identity?

Josh Harrel

Yeah, you know, honestly, one of the biggest ones, and it's one that I've actually I feel like I've been learning more in in recent months is what we were just talking about earlier, is that this is a a process of understanding who you are in Christ. And it's not going to be linear and it's not going to look perfect.

Josh Harrel

And to understand that God has space for that. So as you are as you are walking through, understanding who you are in Christ and you start to work through, undoubtedly some of the hard parts of your story, don't for a second think that God's afraid of any of that or that he can't handle the things that come out of that process.

Josh Harrel

I've had moments where I was so angry with God and I for sure let him know it. And those were some of the most intimate moments I've had with God, because for Him, for me to see again that his opinion and his belief in his love for me does not change, even based on my own behavior. Or circumstances that has only stirred up my security and putting my identity in him.

Josh Harrel

So one is just allowing space for the process and knowing that if you're if you are seeking God, that he is going to meet you there because he says he will and he's faithful, too. I think the other part of this is really being intentional about who you're surrounding yourself with and who's speaking into your life. I always think of my life as a table, and I think about who's sitting at my table and those seats and the people in them.

Josh Harrel

They vary with season sometimes, but the thing that's always consistent about who's at my table is that are they someone who's going to speak the truth of Jesus into my life? Yeah, because if they are, then maybe they are someone that should be at my table. But if they're not there for sure, someone who's not going to be at my table and doesn't mean I'm not friends with other people who believed if I don't believe that, it's that that I should, you know, devoid my life of people who believe differently.

Josh Harrel

Because I think there's opportunities to understand. I mean, everyone is created by God. So I want to understand other people and I want to trust the Holy Spirit's going to bring opportunities for for the Gospel to be spoken in those situations. But when it comes to who's actually speaking into my life, speaking over my identity and, and who's who's speaking words to to my heart and to my soul, it's going to be people that I know that they are following Jesus, that they love him and that they're imperfect just like I am.

Josh Harrel

But we have the same united goal of becoming who Christ made us to be.

Patrick McCalla

A whole nother podcast. We could go on, but can you show me the five people sitting at your table that are speaking those that into your life, and I'll show you who you're going to be in a few years.

Josh Harrel

Absolutely. That's so present. Great advice. True.

Patrick McCalla

So true. Truths in a lie.

Josh Harrel

OK, to truth in a lie. So let's see.

Patrick McCalla

See if I can get.

Josh Harrel

You to see if you can guess. So you might know because we've spent some time together right now. OK, let's see. I have been a singer since I was five years old.

Patrick McCalla

OK?

Josh Harrel

I am originally from the state of Oregon, OK? And I have been to Disney World three times.

Patrick McCalla

You've been a singer. That's true. All right. I got that one. And you're from Oregon. Yes. All right. I got it. You did.

Josh Harrel

I know. It's time to go now. I've never been to Disney World, but I'm dying to go. So it's on it's on the bucket list.

Patrick McCalla

All right. Good. Well, Josh, thank you so much. I think all of our listeners can understand why use words like courageous and warrior and tenacious and broken and humble and dependent on Jesus to describe you. And I would use those same words to describe your wife who's on next week. I don't want the listeners to miss out, but thank you so much.

Josh Harrel

That was awesome.

Host

Thanks for listening to the No Gray Areas podcast to dove deeper into the story. Be sure to subscribe. Follow us on social media and check out No Gray Areas dot com.