Doctor Huang Huang is a clinician, teacher, author and well studied expert on the Jing Fang, the classical formulas of the Shang Han Lun. He has a unique perspective on constitution and how that relates to a patient's illness, their strengths, and the kinds of herbs that will be safe and effective for them.

The guest on today's show has been going to Nanjing and Studying with Dr. Huang for the past 10 years and is currently doing a Ph.D with him as his advisor.

In this episode we dig into the details of Dr. Huang's approach of paying attention to patient constitution, formula function and illness presentation. Like all masterful practitioner's Huang's thoughts and methods have changed and matured over time, we discuss some of his latest thoughts on diagnosis and the use of particular formulas and herbs.

Listen in and learn some news ways of considering the use of herbs in your clinic.

Head on over to the show notes page for more information about this episode and for links to the resources discussed in the interview. 

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold

itself separate from the phenomenon that it seeks to understand our

medicine did not grow at a Petri dish experimentation or a double blind studies.

It arose from observing nature and our part in it.

East Asian medicine evolves not from the examination of dead structures, but

rather from living systems with their complex mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to chia logical.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast.

That goes in depth on issues, pertinent to practitioners and students of east

Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion have always been elemental to Chinese

and other east Asian medicines.

Listening to these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding and hotter and clinic.

Hello, everybody.

Welcome back to chia logical.

I'm really excited about the interview that I got for you today.

I'm talking with mark gearing.

Mark is an acupuncturist who's been in practice for almost

20 years now in Australia.

He lives on the gold coast, near Brisbane and.

Mark is a pH D student of Dr.

and Dr.

Hong.

Kong's a really interesting doctor.

He has this view of using the DJing Fon, the classic formulas, and

in particular, from the point of view of looking at constitution.

Really deep into this, cause this is, this is part of what Mark's work is.

Mark also has done work with our no over sluice.

He's deep into the Jing Fon, uh, world here.

And I'm really excited to have him on the show.

Cause it's been awhile since I've been to Nanjing and seen Dr.

Long.

So I'm going to get my little Dr.

Huang hit with you guys here today.

Mark.

Welcome to qiological.

Thanks Michael.

Not.

Great to have you.

I'm curious, how did you come across Dr.

Hong Hung's work?

What caught your interest and what got you going with.

The first thing I, I think I saw was, uh, 10 key formula families

book that you've heard of that one translated by a particular gentlemen.

And he came, Dr.

Hong came to Australia to doing a seminar and, um, I met.

And he was, he was really the first person to be so open

with his clinical experience.

And, you know, really he had such a passion forging following

and a passion for teaching.

I mean, cause there are some teachers that I think that are very good

practitioners and there are some teachers that are very good teachers,

but not so good practitioners.

And Dr.

Hong really appeared to be a combination of, of both a good

practitioner and a good teacher.

And I remember him, you know, he was talking about, there was some research

about using Gergen for diabetes, you know, in like, you know, tongue for example.

And he said, well, if you're using good again for diabetes, you'll need

to use at least 30 grams or more, otherwise it won't have the same effect.

And, you know, people will ask, well, why?

And he said, well, because I tried it, you know, I've tried it a hunt,

you know, hundreds of hundreds of people I'll try to do 10 grams at

15 grams, you know, uh, 20 grams.

And it just consistently works better at 30 grams.

Information like that I think is just super valuable for me as a, as a

practitioner, because that just saved me lots and lots of time in clinic.

Well, not only does it save you time and clinic, but holy smokes,

I'm thinking about you use it.

It doesn't work.

You use it, it doesn't work.

It's like, how do you say we should have him on the show?

How do you sort of keep moving forward with your ideas?

Even when you don't quite have a dialed in yet, that is that's

really the mark of someone who has a deep trust in, in the medicine.

Yeah.

And I think that, I think that the nice thing with Dr Hong is,

you know, he tries to make the information very available to people.

You know, he doesn't focus a lot, uh, so much on the, you know, the,

the six confirmations or the, the.

And I think the only information is there, like contained in his, in his

methodologies, but I think he just tries to help him have an easy way

for people to enter into the classics because there is, there is quite a lot of

arguments between what is the legal gene?

Is it channels?

Is it not the channels?

What is JueYin, you know, for example, who she, Sue had a

very different interpretation, Andre, and then, um, say Dr.

Tin, did you know from ANOVAs sluices lineage or, um, is it this, or is it that.

Dr Hong, like he focuses on the, you know, the Fung, Jen, the formula patch, and then

the gal Jang, the herb pattern, you know, as really like, as a, as a basis, as a

way into the classics for our listeners that may not have read 10 key formula

families available from Eastland press, by the way, we'll have it in the show notes

for those that are not familiar with it.

When you're talking about.

Formula presentation or earth presentation.

What are you talking about here?

What does that mean?

That I don't think that's really a term that you would hear

much in an acupuncture school.

I think it's talked a little bit more about in, you know, And schools

particularly cause there's an emphasis also on abdominal diagnosis and

palpation, which is from the Shanghai learn, you know, some people say, well,

that just comes from Campo, but, um, that's um, and from Japanese herbal

medicine, but you know, the, the abdomen is talked about all the time in the,

in the original text, it's really looking at what's in front of you.

And in that sense, it's like looking at the evidence that's

presenting in front of you.

Stop the ones, always, always talking about, you know, you need to.

Be practical.

Don't, don't get lost in theory, you know, I mean, sometimes Dr.

One gets a bit of a criticism from some peoples, you know, that I've heard.

And I've been in, for example, in a DJing phone conference in China, where

someone said, oh, you know, you, you can't give dacha Hutong for everything.

You know, like if someone's a body type, we can't give that for everything.

And I think that's a mistake like Dr.

Hong is not saying that he's just, he's, he's saying, you know,

you need to look at the body.

You need to look at what's in front of.

That type of inspection of the body is very important for discovering what's

there on a, on a practical level.

Like for example, you could have insomnia, you know, and that might

be like my, which formula do I use?

You know, if you're using classical formulas, you might be

thinking of, you know, Swan, sarin tongue or something like that.

Calm to sleep or even something like, you know, grades, tongue,

if you're inspecting the body and then you're all of a sudden, then

you help heading the abdomen.

And there's a lot of resistance and pain on pressure, you know,

it's like, oh, there's a bit of a blockage here, you know?

And then you S you ask more questions, you know, is there some reflux and

yes, there's a bit of acid reflux.

And from Dr.

Wong's point of view, Through observing lots and lots of people, he knows that.

Okay.

Like, you know, you know, uh, Darcia who tongue patent for example, can relate to a

bigger upper body, you know, than a bigger and a lot of pain on pressure in the

abdomen or noticeable pain on pressure.

So, you know, and that sort of can lead you in a particular direction

rather than sort of like treating the.

The disease you're really treating the person.

So that's one thing that I've, I really was impressed upon with Dr.

Kwong is like, you know, you must treat the person, not treat the disease.

So, you know, looking at, for example, Gotcha.

Hutong is not necessarily a, a formula that you might instantaneously think of

for insomnia, but if you then broaden your knowledge and you go back to something

like the Honda in aging, where it says like, if the digestion or the stomach is

in disharmony, the slate will be on sound.

So you're, you're actually treating the mechanism of dysfunction in the

body rather than actual treating the symptoms of the disease.

That's like really going to the core essence of the problem, rather than

just giving lots and lots and lots of Herb's for lots of different symptoms.

It's like, oh, okay, well, you know, you've got insomnia, so we'll

give this formula for insomnia and then, oh, there's reflux.

So we'll give another formula for reflux, you know?

And then it's like, well, hang on.

You know, it's like finding how they all link up and it's like, well, okay,

well, if there's reflux and there's.

And there's a lot of pain in the abdomen.

Dark, Chinatown would drink that, you know, and then

see what happens after that.

Maybe it needed a little bit of a modification.

You know, I think he discovered a lot of this sort of stuff being based on

practical research and bright based on observation, it's not like he just sort

of said, well, let's, let's say this is a, this is a buncha tongue, or this

is a dark long tongue part of his hang.

His master's in his PhD was also.

Interviewing all the allowed young Jong-il the old Chinese doctors

about what they agreed upon and what their take is on certain things.

And then he stood over his applied that in clinic is very, very careful in what

he, before he actually makes a statement.

He has things that is, he'll be investigating.

Here's the saying, oh, well, I'm not, I'm just investigating this at the moment.

It looks like this is true.

Um, but I'm still, I'm still, you know, still working on that, you know, It's

great to hang out with him in clinic, especially over a course of time, which,

which it sounds like you have done as well, because at one point he'll be really

keen on certain formulas and he's kind of working other things out and you come

back to him, you know, a year later, and now he's really using this other formula.

Right or has it got an idea, like you say, he's been working on it and now it's like,

oh, I see how this works and you, and you see how he brings it into his practice.

So he's constantly evolving and changing.

The work that he does is quite extraordinary, which is one thing

I really respect about him is he's always updating his knowledge

and he's always open to change if something works or is not working.

Like I remember 10 years ago when I first met him, he was

using a lot more modifications.

I can Marin in 2000 and.

A seminar that I did, where for example, he was using shinny qua

for the, for nasal blockage as an addition to various formulas.

But nowadays he's, he's doesn't use that.

And he hasn't yet.

I don't think he's used that in years.

He's he prefers to go back to the original formula pattern.

And then for something like a gag and tongue or a cha-ching

long tongue, or, and he prefers.

To just use the original formulas if he can on modified, which is another

thing that I really like about him.

He's, he's very much a minimalist.

Um, if he can use three Herb's, he's happy.

He's more than happy.

One of the things that I think impressed me about Dr.

Wong and being in his clinic was just the simplicity of his, his treatments

and how with that simplicity, he's really trying to go to the essence of.

The pathology, you know, like what's underneath all of these symptoms.

Is there under an underlying cold or underlying hate pattern?

Or I remember about eight or nine years ago, I was in his clinic and Nanjing.

There was a gentleman that came in and all the gentlemen came

in with cerebral hemorrhage.

Dr.

Long had given him son , uh, function and a three Herb's.

He had extreme.

Success on it.

And, and apparently this guy they know around Nanjing, he'd paid

literally hundreds of thousands of RNB, like thousands of dollars getting

treatment, getting the least expensive Herb's and eventually like Dr.

Wong looked at, looked at his body.

I think he had a very, had a lot of farm heat signs and he had nasal bleeding.

So he was like, you know, it's a Hong shushing tongues in the

bleeding chapter of the gin, gray LA.

So he had nasal bleeding.

He had very like red lips when I felt his pulse.

It was very slippery and rapid.

And he had what he called a dark long tongues, very thick, thick,

and yellow coating and with a little bit of a burning sensation.

And he gave him some whole shish and tongue and the bleeding

stopped, you know, in his brain.

He had been on that for, I think, uh, for a few weeks or for, for, I'm not

sure how long, you know, the man was commenting on it and conduct along with

asking questions and pointing it out.

So things like, see if you get the formula patent really correct.

Um, and your diagnosis is really correct.

You actually don't need a lot of herbs.

But quite well.

Um, and the guy was like, well, it's just so cheap.

And you know, I can't believe it.

And it works so well.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting.

Isn't it?

You know, the other thing I've noticed about him in clinic is if he can use

the cheaper herb he'll use the cheaper, I mean, he's got an eye on people's

pocketbook and not loading them down with expensive herbs, if he doesn't have to.

Yeah.

I mean, he really goes for some of the simple stuff, you know, one of

the things I found really interesting, you know, early on in reading his

book and then later working with.

You know, this thing about constitutional body types, you know, you, you can

look at someone and, and, you know, and it's like, okay, so like this

person here, you look at him and you go, they look like a truck type, right.

They, they got the pale skin.

They're kind of, they're kind of thin.

It might be a warm day, but they're wearing a scarf anyway.

You know, and if you can dial in that piece about constitution,

like what kind of person.

Is this then immediately, you can not have to think about three quarters of the

herbal pharmacy, you know, or more because it's like for this person, I'm first

going to start with a glacier formula or like you were talking about the person,

you know, their belly is really hard.

It's tight under the ribs.

They got the reflux probably going to start with a child who, for.

Yeah.

I mean, I think it really gives you a treatment direction, you know, and

that's not to say that like you're always stuck with that direction.

Cause then people can be, have a formula pattern, but not be a formula

type, you know, to use the example of dacha Hutong again, I remember when.

Dr.

Wong said a Nanjing couple of years ago, like, look at this person there.

They have a dacha Hutong pattern, but they're not a

Dodger who tongue, body type.

So pay attention to when the pattern changes.

I think one of the main things is, um, the reason to look at body types, um, is one

is kind of like giving a treatment, right?

But the other example is safety in the formula.

So, you know, if they're a wager body type and they feel worse when sweating

and they're sweating a lot, you know, and they're very thin and frail, you

know, you're not, your first thought is not going to be a math long form.

You know, in that sense, you know, and that, and that's, you know, from the

point of view of, of safety, um, and I think the camper people and people

that study a dominal diagnosis, also talk a bit about this in terms of like,

you know, if you're having a particular abdomen than not, that can sort of give

you a herb method, you know, if there's a very flacid and, you know, and, and

big abdomen, you might might think about Hong cheek, like a Hong chief for.

And he's like, okay, that's there, but it's just like, for me, it's like

a piece of information to add to the diagnosis and it's not, um, something

that, you know, oh, well, you're look, you're a child who person we're going

to have to give you a child who formula because you're a child who type this.

And you know, you like, you might be going through a different particular

formula patent at that time.

And sometimes people will have multiple, you know, a combination of body types.

And that can not, you know, they might have chart you and wager, and that

might be a formula with in it, or it might be a single, single one of those

two, depending on what's happening.

You add pieces to the puzzle is the way I see it.

Like if they had a honky.

But then I start complaining of numbness, for example.

And then you, then you thinking, oh, could this be Kwong T gradual Wu-Tang

you know, from the lines, there can be lots of other things going on as well.

Like I think one of the first DJing fund that I used was, was willing son.

And that was after doing Dr.

Pang's course.

I remember.

Um, patient came to see me with nocturia, with nighttime urination.

I had about sort of five or six times urination at night.

Um, and he'd been to see another practitioner in the, in the

area, um, who had diagnosed it as kidney yang deficiency.

And it's like, well, it's not time urination.

That was kidney yang deficiency, you know, and yeah, he's, he's.

Sure pulses were, were a bit deeper and, and so forth.

And there was no result and he he'd given them kidney yang,

tonics, and there was no results.

And then he came to see me and he had a very flacid abdomen

and I was looking at it.

And then I was just looking at him and looking at these tongue

and no hit a very wet tongue and a bit of a dazed expression.

And I was like, Hmm.

You know?

And I said, do you ever, um, get first.

Anyway.

Yeah.

Had, you know, I said, okay, well, you know, do you ever

like want to drink water?

But if you drink water, then you get sick or you get reflux.

Yeah.

How'd, you know that, you know, and then, uh, and I just kept asking

him all these willing son questions, basically, uh, the, do you get dizzy?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How'd, you know, that, you know, and, um, and basically I gave him willing.

Well swanky, um, to help metabolize the fluids.

And he's not, he's nighttime urination got a lot better, like down to, you

know, one or two times a night, I think, you know, within a matter of a week.

So for me, like, as an experience that told me to like first pay attention

to the body, but also to not be caught up with a particular disease.

Because we get taught diseases, you know, we learn like a patient person

comes and says, I've got arthritis or I've got insomnia or I'll go, Nope.

Tyria.

And then we often think about, you know, the disease first.

And I think Dr.

Hong's really aware of that.

I think that's part of the reason why he has that little, little kind of

triangle of United sort of formula pattern, body type and disease.

You know, it's like this like old sort of should link together.

So, you know, it's like knowledge about what the disease is, should be one piece

of information, but also then having a good knowledge of the formula patents,

uh, and the hood patterns also then gives you a valuable piece of information, um,

and something to recognize as well as then the person's particular constitution type.

So for example, if.

I think that might need a help honky formula, then you know

that you're going to be safe.

If you want to use a bit of a high dose or punchy.

If they have a very flacid abdomen, no abdominal distension, um, you

know, they tend to be hungry and sweater this and so forth and no

pain on pressure in the abdomen.

You know that they're going to be fine on that.

But with versus if they have.

Very hot abdomen and they have a very, um, you know, lots of pain on pressure

and constipation, you know, perhaps wonky will make them feel a bit more full

and a bit uncomfortable in the abdomen.

So I think that all of those sort of, you know, that looking at the body

kind of gives you some important, um, diagnostic, um, information.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It definitely helps to dial in your clinical eye.

Once you start to take note of these things, I'm curious, you know, Talking

about how he's constantly evolving, trying things out, taking an idea

that he's gotten and working with it in the clinic on your last visit.

Were there any formulas or presentations or conditions?

That you noticed him using a particular formula a lot for, right.

I mean, I know when I was there last time dot chai Hutong was, was sort

of the poster child, so to speak, he used it for a lot of stuff.

And I'm wondering what, you know, where he's at right now.

If there's any conditions that you see that, you know, we might see here in

the west, you know, people listening to this show and, and, uh, some of

the ways that he goes about treat.

Well, he's I think his favorite former, um, this year, or that he's been

really working on his function tongue.

Function Taiyang.

Yeah.

So I mentioned by shell council Danza.

Yeah.

It's another one of those little tiny formulas.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think he's, he gets influenced by he's had his own practice.

He gets influenced by like he's aware of the, uh, the

research that was done in Yale.

Um, but that particular doctor who was using Hong chin tongue for

the side effects of chemotherapy and, uh, intestinal cancer, I

think he's also constantly trying to find a way to simplify things.

Like I know he, like, for example, he was he's, he likes the camper

formula gingerly and Chinatown, um, which is quite a big formula, you

know, it's like, One land JD Taiyang.

And so we Taiyang and lots of things in there, you know, for particular

heat type auto immune diseases, you know, he would use that in like heat

type auto-immune arthritis or heat type autoimmune and fertility and so forth

and some types of cancer and so forth.

That's good.

And he's had good results with that, but he always likes to say, Simplify and

go to the core essence more and more.

So I think part of what he gets influences is a need to, or not a

wish, a wish to simplify whenever he made the comment to me this year.

Um, it's like Hong chin tongue is kind of like, it's the essence of like tree.

You know, I hate constitution type.

And so for example, he's, you've been using chin tongue for

autoimmune arthritis, maybe with Hong by or something like that.

Add it in, you know, when there's a lot of redness and to the

joints and swelling and so forth.

And he'll say it's actually had some good success with one chin, tongue and load

in lowering the tumor markers in, in.

Which I found quite interesting.

Um, I think it was the, as the IFP Maka, well, the CIMA.

I think his way of explaining that is like, when you have a very strong

hate constitution, you know, that type of heat pathogen heat tends to

expand, to expand and want to grow.

And a tumor that's metastasizing grows and expands.

It's a way.

Dealing with that particular core pathological issue, um, to, to prevent

that sort of continuation of the problem.

And then, you know, of course this person had a lot of heat symptoms,

you know, and, you know, red lips and, you know, um, you know, maybe some

bleeding gums, um, he's often use it for like, um, blood in the stool and

a kind of bleeding type dysentery in conjunction with, with cancer as well.

And, and he said some very, very good successes with it.

So.

So I think that's, that's probably his, the one that he's

really presenting a lot on.

It was a big DJing phone conference in, in Bo Jo, um, uh, early this year.

And I know he, he, he did a whole lecture for an hour just on Hong chin town

and the different sort of combinations and formula combinations and, and

things that he, he can treat with.

Great.

Um, I'm going to have to, uh, start looking for places where

I can use that in my practice.

I mean, as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking, oh yeah, there there's

these patients I have, and there's this, you know, kind of a smoldering heat, so

to speak is really what it looks like.

And this sounds like a good formula for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that, like, I mean, one of the key indications is like, you

know, you should have red lips, you know, with one chin tongue.

And again, that's that safety, you know, like, um, I'm very aware of

like, you know, in some of my other training, when they talk about, you

know, the, the true essence of treating shaoyang is, is, is really clunky

and not shy who, you know, so the core of treating a sort of shaoyang.

Flaring uprising of hate.

There's a line.

I think the Shanghai loan thing is line 333 that talks about, you know,

if it's, uh, the pulse is slow, you know, and it's a cold pattern and the

person mistakenly gives, you know, on the chin tongue, you know, it's, uh, it

can cause death or something like that.

And then an often giving function tongue, the abdomen should be cold.

And Dr.

Lung sort of like as aware of that reference to function,

tongue and the abdomen.

And then of course he's feeling the abdomen a lot.

And then he sort of, then he's noticing, oh, hang on.

All these people that are getting better that are needing function,

tongue and doing well on Huntington.

All of them have very like hot skin on the abdomen or the skin on the abdomen is

a lot warmer than the head, for example.

So he's then over time, it's like, well, okay, that is that an indication

for using Hong chin tongue, you know?

And that makes sense.

Cause you know, Maybe use for dysentery and heat in the

intestines and, and so forth.

And then plus, you know, red lips or, you know, and, and, um, and, and a rapid

pulse, then he would, he would sort of start to think of, of honking tongue.

And especially if there's a little bit of cramping pain, cause there's

the by show in there as well.

He kind of, you know, um, said, well, killers, there's enough

evidence to, to, to use that.

That's, that's sort of quite fascinating.

Have you been using this in your clinic?

I have most so in conjunction with Shaw Hutong, which is basically just, you

know, adding by shout to, to, um, shaoyang Hutong, which is something that Dr.

Hong also does.

And because I'm a student.

Omnibus loose and sluice is, you know, his PhD was on the link between the

tongue aging and the Shanghai Lewin.

I asked Dr.

Kwan is that because of diet Italian done tongue and the tongue hitching

or that, or the fishing dry, I should say, sorry, there's a debate about, you

know, where the Jenga Chung actually, you know, and made up the hushing joy or

whatever, but let's not get into that.

But I asked Dr.

Wong about that and he said, He's looking at it.

Well, from the point of view of function, tongue with shutter

Hutong bit, he said, yes, it's also Diane Denton from flourishing Dre.

I've used that quite a lot for various people, especially when there's,

when there's some abdominal pain.

Um, but also when there's a lot of heat, I think there's, um, I think like one of

the postscripts and such out who tongue from memory is like, you know, take

out long chin and then add by a shower.

But in those cases of like, when you have lots of.

Blossomed.

So some abdominal pain it's like easing both, but, but yeah, I mean for

sore throat and things like that, I think I've used one chin tongue, you

know, a little bit, but, but more so with, with Shaw who Tom, I want to

shift this just a little bit here.

You, uh, along with a few other folks are doing a PhD program with Dr.

Kwan these days.

Yes.

Yes.

So myself and around Yvonne is a really good friend.

Um, and then Phil settles and Daniel Ang were sort of Dr.

Wang's first Western overseas students, um, to do, to do the PhD

and, um, that's sort of something.

Um, both Ron and I were talking about for a long time, was wanting

to do a PhD and enriching fun.

You know, I think we were really lucky to get Dr.

Wong as a supervisor because he's, he's very much in demand and he's

becoming more and more in demand.

And in, in China, And he's famous for sort of saying no, but, um, you

know, we were very lucky to do that.

And, um, and I think that like, you know, I mean, we all have our own

different topics and my topic is on, um, a willing son for pituitary

at an MRO pituitary Shamo, it's something that I've seen and doc Dr.

Hong use and.

Full pituitary CIMA.

And it really kind of stood out to me like, firstly, I think he,

I saw him use it for a lady with, um, interrupted menstrual flow,

you know, and they said, oh, what?

And cause I was, we were there and I think, um, in his clinic and then

normally in the clinical observation, Yeah, there's a lot of patients and,

you know, and there's you sort of trying to get the information and then we'll

usually a mad house is our recall.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I try and I, cause I lead study tours to Dr.

Lung's clinic and in, during those study tours, we, you know, Dr.

Long specifically slows down and specifically, you know, points out

things to sort of help people understand.

But I got thinking about at that time we were.

Uh, his students there.

So it was kind of going very fast.

I was like, oh, what was the disease?

I was like, amen.

Hurry are in trouble with menstrual flow.

We know what was the formula?

You know, willing son, wait, wait, what, how does that work?

Because normally, like, you know, you'd think, oh, if they have a water

metabolism issue, Blood metabolism issue.

You thinking of formulas like Douglas, Shaya, sauna, or quadrupling one that

have blood movers and water, water, Metabo, water herbs in them, you

know, like, uh, you know, fooling and, and engager and so share whatever.

But, um, the person, the lady had a very clear, willing son

pattern, you know, and, um, And he gave it and it worked very well.

And I was like, that's really fascinating.

I saw him give that to somebody who also had a pituitary tumor

and that kind of intrigued me.

And then I thought, well, maybe there's something here.

And then I started researching pituitary.

From, I remember of looking at the, what was the American cancer council's website.

And then just some of the symptoms of opportunity traits in a chamber is things

like dizziness and headache, you know, which are also willing some symptoms,

you know, and urinary issues, you know, and sweating, you know, all of which are.

All of which are willing sun issues, you know, um, absence

administration and so forth.

And the other thing that sort of impressed me was like, when I first

saw him, he was willing sign for that.

And it's like, hang on.

That's like right out of the Jean Gray outweigh, like that's chapter 14, line

20, if you know the water chapter, you know, you know, that line where it says,

you know, if the, um, um, you know, diseases are red, the blood aspect of

water aspect, you know, if the person has interrupted menstrual flow and then they.

If menstrual flow, then water aspect, it's called blood aspect and it's

difficult to trade, but if that first have, uh, um, a water problem

and then a blood problem, then it's, it's easier to treat sort of thing.

You know, that any builds a connection between using, treating the water

aspect and interactive menstrual flow.

And it was like, well, that's like, And the actual practical

application of that line.

And then like, that's really fascinating to me, you know, and, and Dr.

Huang subsequently, and, and some of his other doctors working in Nanjing

have had some very, very good successes with willing son as a base formula,

um, for pituitary CIMA, sometimes combining it with other, other formulas

that was, you know, one case with, uh, like, um, there was a, um, pituitary

tumor that was to creating prolactin.

Intensely quite significantly.

And the levels were significantly dropped 10 of course the symptoms resolved.

And since then, it's sort of like, you know, um, he'll often check

for, you know, that, that pattern.

And in my own clinic, I also saw a patient who came in and then, and

then wasn't really drinking water and it's like, oh, I've drunk, half a cup.

That's good for me.

I was like, oh really?

You know, and then I questioned her further and then she had lots of

dizziness and headache and then feel sick when she drinks water and so forth.

And, and she also had pituitary tumor post-surgery also, so she had already

had surgery on, on, on the, on the, uh, for the it's a benign tumor mostly, but,

um, but she still had lots of symptoms.

So I thought, well, maybe that's, this is an area that's worthy of investigation.

Then I started investigating that further and it sort of went on from there.

That sounds really interesting.

Keep us posted.

When, when will you finish up with your PhD?

When we have like a dissertation that we could put on the show notes page

or something, um, dissertation, um, that will be in a couple of years,

it will be like, you know, a while.

Um, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a big job.

It's a big job.

They always like to challenge you on it.

Um, and I sort of had.

I mean, you have to defend your thesis as well, but, um, but the interesting

thing was there is quite a lot of research around and particularly

I've found some interesting Japanese research from, uh, uh, MD from Japan,

um, that had been using willing, saw on as a base treatment on about 60 or

so people after a brain tumor surgery.

So that actually had a malignant brain tumor and then he'd give them

willing Sohn and he had, um, Very significant results with, um, with a

swelling and inflammation in the brain.

So there, you know, it's, it's out there and there's been some other, some

other, um, uh, research papers from China where people have used willing

sand for trauma, you know, um, in the brain from an injury and so forth.

And, um, there is a bit of a precedent of other people using

willing sun for brain brain issues.

And, um, it's, I'm still kind of collecting all the information

and then, and then putting it, putting it all together.

Well, you know, it's great.

I mean, you've been.

Going over to China on a regular basis.

I know you take people over there and I'd like to dip into

that here in just a moment.

You've been going there for a while now.

And so you've gotten a chance to, you know, see how long work with this stuff

and, you know, pick up ideas and, you know, go home and work with them and come

back and refine it and that kind of thing.

So it's, it's really delightful to hear.

You share this information with us about uses of a willing Sohn in this way.

This can be really helpful for lots of people.

Tell us a little bit about these trips that you do, you know, when you do

them and you know, some information on, well, we can put it on the show

notes page, how people can contact you if they would like to, uh, go

to Nanjing and hang out with, uh, H.

Thanks.

You too nice to know.

Oh, um,

both Dr.

Pong and I agree the best way to learn is with a live patient.

And the best way to learn is in clinic.

Like, you know, say what you want about Dr.

Kwong.

Like, unless you really spent a good amount of time in clinic with him.

It's another level of appreciation of what he's doing.

Like on the outside, it might look like this is, it looks very simple, simple.

There's also, there's actually a very much a sophistication with that.

So I started doing a study to is basically to spend more time in clinic

with him, but also to give people, especially in Australia originally, but

now, you know, all the countries with joining the tool, we got someone from,

from England and from America coming this time too, is to give people more

clinical experience and practical.

Practical observational experience.

I mean, Dr.

Hong, again, he's very generous with his knowledge.

You know, if he's, if he's really learnt something, he'll tell it to you.

If he's not sure.

He'll tell it to you.

If he says this doesn't work, he'll, you know, he'll, there'll be very, very clear.

He says, look, I'm not horrible.

He's totally straight up.

He's very straight out.

You're very much so.

And I think that the other advantage with China is, and I mean, you

just see hundreds of patients in a, in like in two weeks.

And then I made the study to us for two weeks.

So people can then see, um, the followup treatment and they can see

the person coming back and how Dr.

Hong might change the formula, you know, and if it works or if it doesn't work,

you know, cause like there's some times where it looks like this, something, but

in LA it's not quite that, you know, and I think that's, um, all the practitioners

that I've seen a little head.

You know, even people have lots of experience of all, you know, once

in a while, there's something that doesn't work, you know, and then, and

how they then relate to that and how they, they, their, their change of

viewpoint is very, very interesting.

You know, it's, this to me is such a key thing because I know in my own

clinical experience, I mean, I've got the idea in my head that, oh yeah.

Sometimes things don't work.

It's an opportunity to learn something new.

Get another perspective, have a chance to help somebody.

It's one thing to have that as an idea.

And I think we all have that as an idea, but it's another thing

when you're actually sitting in Clinton going, oh shit.

Now what?

Right.

That didn't work now.

What?

And so it's great to be able to watch someone like Dr.

Fong, where someone comes in and hasn't worked and it's

like, you know, watch the mass.

You know, and how he works with that.

That's that's great styles.

Yeah.

And you also just get a lot of experience, a lot of practical experience

looking at the formula pattern.

Cause I mean the formula patents, they're all based on the original

lines and the Shanghai learn and the.

But what Dr shaoyang has done is then expanded that understanding of formula

patent to include facial diagnosis and leg diagnosis and the abdominal diagnosis.

This is pretty much out of the Shanghai alone anyway, and it's the same in

a lot of the other, um, systems.

So, you know, so like when you see a grade you're fooling one face

and glad you're filling one legs, you'll you won't forget it, you know?

And then tell us what a good ruffling one face and legs look.

So basically if the person has a flushed face and they tend to have

broken, can pillories on the nose, um, a little bit darkness under the eyes.

Sometimes it's a bit of a dark complexion, sometimes dark lips, dark sublingual

veins, you know, under the tongue, um, you know, it was one aspect and then.

With the legs.

Of course, then it's, you know, rough skin on the legs, but also varicose veins

that have dark Polish, varicose veins.

Um, and then with the abdomen, then it's lower lift abdominal quadrant pain.

So, you know, which is, you know, Twitch to me is like, Very valuable.

Cause like, for example, if you're just going on and our lower left quadrant pain

and you think there's some blood status and say they have a bit of a purple-ish

tongue or something, then there's other things that, that could be as well.

You know, like, you know, like for example, that could be a Dugway Shaya

on pattern that then you look towards.

Um, and then look towards the legs.

And then if they've got more of a, like a sallow face and more dry skin

and pale skin, and then the legs are a bit more fluidy and there might

be some dark Therakos cities, but a little bit more, um, swelling in

the legs or a DEMA and the light.

And cramping in the legs.

Cause, you know, I wish I son has high by shower in it that can sort of lead you

into a particular direction a bit more as opposed to like, you know, that sort

of equation filling one where there's very obvious congestion and so forth.

Um, and I, uh, because the blood is not, not descending, um, as, as, as it should.

It really sounds like because of the time that you spent there in

clinic, you really developed your eye.

Catching these very physical cues that help you to know it could be

one of these two formulas, but it really looks more like this one.

The now.

Yeah.

And I think I'm adding all of those things into it.

Adding lists that have diagnostic features is really important.

And, um, it just sort of informs your decision.

So it's not like you, you know, like you have one symptom and,

um, you know, like, okay, right.

That's that formula.

Oh, they have, okay.

They have flushed face.

It's going to be this it's like, well, no, like it could be other things as well.

It.

Evidence towards a particular treatment direction or a

particular formula direction.

So, you know, that that is again important for, for safety.

And then it's something that, you know, Dr.

Wong is, is also observed through seeing hundreds and hundreds of patients as well.

Thousands of patients.

You know, 40 years or whatever, you know, and then he'll add, you know, some

things about some elements about the pulse and the tongue into that as well.

And that can be a very, you know, a very, very key indication.

Like, you know, he has his little song, you know, um, in Chinese, which should

have, you know, Teaches you is sort of like, okay, if you think it's this,

look at this sign, like, you know, it's like, um, with a foods are in

doc long, like different stating foods and on it's like, you know, I think

it's Dar Hong to share Thai foods or demise, like look at the tongue coating.

Um, the shirt tie the tongue coating with dark long.

If you suspect it could be dark long, or if you suspect it could

be a food dependent, you need to see a deep and weak and faint pulse

with the foods, with the foods.

To, in order to sort of confirm that he has this whole rhyme, I'm sure

you know it, you know, it's like, you know, shaoyang to shout and

shout, gook and debate, you know, with, if you want to thinking, you

know, that one, uh, it's been awhile, but here's what I know about these.

They sound great and they make sense in Chinese, but you try to do it in

English and they just fall apart.

They do, they don't rhyme in English.

It's like, it's like treat the lower.

Yeah.

Shaoyang and, and treat the back would go again.

But, um, but, uh, but it's, but it does, it does inform your presentation.

So like, like if you're, and again, again, that's an aspect with, with safety.

Like if you're thinking about using, you know, a food's a pattern or you're

thinking about using, uh, a mile-long passing or something in my home formula,

Important to inspect the skin, you know, and, and, and look at if there's

evidence, you know, to use that.

I love the way you used the word evidence here, because in many ways,

you know, evidence-based medicine, I'm using this in air quotes.

Evidence-based medicine, as it's practiced in the west has one meaning, but Quang is

actually doing evidence-based medicine.

He's looking for specific evidence.

Of particular things to decide, is it safe for this person?

Is it a fit for this person?

You know, and will it work for the illness that they have?

I mean, it's very much observational and evidence-based yeah.

I mean, that's the way I kind of see it as he's just looking for, you know,

practical input, practical information.

That's presenting to him, um, and something that's happening in the

person's body that he can detect to look at helping to regulate their physiology

or regulate their overall functioning.

Quick question here.

And this is back to your, your travel.

You know, this, this show is going to air well from the time where we're

recording it, it'll air in a month or two.

People could be listening to this at any time.

They could be listening to this years from when we actually do it.

So in terms of these travel trips, can you just briefly give us an

outline about how often you do them and how people can find out about

them so they can go if they want.

There is a, um, a Facebook page, Dr.

Hong Kong study group, um, which, which people can join and they can hear

about, um, the study tours from that.

Or they can just email me, you know, at, um, and Mount gearing@hotmail.com.

And we can, you know, um, I can write down that, that address, basically.

I do it.

Um, I try to do it at least once a year to take people over.

Um, um, but if there's, you know, if there's a group of.

At least eight people also, then I can, I can organize it, you know,

at, at a different time of the year.

Um, commonly I go over at the end of the year.

Um, I started doing that because I went over in the middle of summer

and it was don't want to do that.

It's not fun.

I mean, it's really interesting, you know, From, from one point of view,

because oftentimes like, you know, the diseases that present or can be

different than what you, what you suspect.

But obviously I've been selling to go over in December and winter

time often because it's at the end of the year and many students have

finished their exams and so forth.

And so it's, um, it's a bit close to Christmas for some

people, but it seems to be over.

Easier, but, um, but I, but I have run other study tours if people sort

of like a design eight people also that, that, um, or more that they can,

that, that want to go over, then I can organize it at a different time.

Terrific.

That's good stuff to know.

We're going to need to.

And this here in just a minute or two mark, is there anything else

that you'd like to share with the listeners about this topic of Dr.

Huang and ? Well, I mean, if the thing that Dr.

Long is often saying to me, um, often says to students is, you know, first,

you know, like there's lots and lots of formulas and lots and lots of,

um, herbs within Chinese medicine.

Um, First, you know, you don't have to learn thousands of formulas first,

like just learn 50 herbs, you know, and that's why he had that book 50,

um, 50 Hubble patents, and then just learn, you know, a few key formula

patterns and then expand it from there.

You know?

And if you, if you knew.

50 important formula patterns, or even a hundred important formula patents.

And you can do it an incredible amount with that.

And the other thing that Dr.

Wong really impresses is, is simplicity, you know, and you know, which is

again, that idea of minimalism.

Um, one of the things, the, actually the inscription that he wrote in my book,

the 10 key formula families is dada.

Juju John Jay, I can't remember that had to pronounce that, but basically in

English, the great way is simplicity.

And for me, that, that, that, that, um, was very meaningful.

And then, yeah, and then it reminded me of Leonardo da.

Vinci's saying, you know, simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

And I think that that's a one very important thing to take away from Dr.

Fonzworth it workers Dr.

Long now he's, he's trying to go back to the original formulas and

he, if he can use the original formula pattern unmodified.

You know, he, he prefers to do that because it is replicatable and because he

wants to be able to teach it and he wants to be able to pass this information on.

But, um, but also because there is also an elegance to that,

simplicity is there is a balance.

There is a deep amount of thought put into the ShaoYin learned

formulas, lynching fund formulas.

And the more I studied DJing fun, the more I, I really appreciate that the medicine.

You know, even though it can pay a P a very simple, sexually,

extraordinarily profound.

Well-spoken mark.

Thank you so much for being here on qiological.

I hope to see you in Nanjing.

Absolutely.

Michael, thanks so much for having me great to talk to you.