This podcast episode dives deep into the culture surrounding DNFs (Did Not Finish) in ultra running, with hosts Brian and Josh discussing the social constructs and emotional weight attached to these outcomes.

Brian passionately argues that runners should be able to celebrate their efforts, regardless of whether they complete a race, pointing out the absurdity of labeling a significant distance as a failure.

The conversation expands to explore the pressures and expectations placed on amateur runners compared to elite athletes, highlighting the different motivations and mentalities in play.

Additionally, the hosts reflect on the implications of race metrics and how the ultra running community could evolve to better recognize the achievements of those who may not finish but still push their limits. With a mix of humor and serious reflection, the episode encourages listeners to reconsider how they perceive and react to DNFs in the sport.

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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025

Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025

VKTRY Insoles - I wear these every run, 20% off.

PATH Projects - My favorite running shorts, Borderlands10 for 10% off.

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Takeaways:

• The DNF culture in ultra running creates unnecessary stigma around not finishing races.
• Runners invest significant time and effort into training, making DNFs feel like failures.
• There should be alternative metrics for race completion rather than just DNF statuses.
• Celebrating accomplishments in running, even if they don't result in a finish, is important.
• The podcast discusses how elite runners view DNFs differently than amateur runners.
• There is a need for a cultural shift in how we perceive and discuss DNFs.

It creates this whole lexicon.

I think that's just kind of a social construct.

If we just allowed us to celebrate what we actually fucking did.

Like, it kind of ruffled me up a little bit.

And this morning I'm already fired up again thinking about this stupid DNF culture that we self impose on each other.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh.

I'm your host.

I'm going to walk through the 3rd arrondissement of Paris on my way to edit today's podcast.

It's another episode of Bad Runner's Take with my dude, Wolf Runner.

I really love these conversations.

I really enjoy Brian, and I'm stoked to get to do this pretty much on a weekly basis at this point.

So we're just going to jump right in.

And these takes, you might think they're good, you might think they're bad, but I think it's important that we at least get them out loud.

We have some debate and talk about it.

So that's what we're gonna do today.

Hope you enjoy it.

Check out Devil's Gulch 100 in the show notes below.

Hope you run that race next July.

See you there.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

It's a bad runner's take.

He's the kipchovy of running back.

All right, back with Wolf Runner on another bad runner's take.

Again, the concept here is I called a bad runner's take because, you know, in proper self deprecation, I say I'm a bad runner, but really the reality was a play on words here to say that these might be bad takes, but as is necessary in most climates, but especially climate right now, of you got to say this stuff out loud.

It's super important to say the stuff out loud.

And trail, it's nice because there's a lot of benefit of the doubt going around.

So we can get controversial here and talk about trail stuff or have opposing opinions or, you know, offer just some bad takes, but we won't know they're bad until we say them out loud because they also might be good.

And that's the risk that we're, we're willing to take before we go any further.

Welcome.

Glad you're here, Brian.

Absolutely.

How's your morning?

I don't know if people know this.

You get up at 5am to record.

For me, it's, it's 1 and I have a nice morning.

You haven't done much but roll out of bed yet, right?

Yeah.

4:30, you know, the alarm goes off, we.

We get the lights fired up.

It's getting colder in the morning out here, so that's, that's, that's good.

What is cold for Europe, for Arizona?

Well, this morning it was like 39 Fahrenheit.

Oh, that's legit.

That's legitimately cold.

I was expecting you to say like 60.

No, no.

Then you figure, you know, javelina was just a two weeks ago and it was 100.

So it's like.

Yeah, I mean, it doesn't.

We don't just gracefully go into cold temperature.

It's an ice.

Okay.

Yeah.

And.

Okay, so the.

So out there in the desert, you're gonna get those lows.

Low lows.

What's your high today?

It'll be like 63.

Damn, that's great.

That's kind of what it is in Paris, but it's.

It's cloudy.

But I mean, wildly runnable weather.

Not complaining.

Miss that sunshine, that hot sun.

I love those photos that you post of that hot sun.

Do you run like, along, like a waterway?

Where are you running?

When I see those photos, yeah, it's a canal.

So, yeah, it's a waterway.

It's crushed gravel.

Uninterrupted traffic lights don't have to deal with that.

And then I'm close enough to kind of the rural boundaries of the city, so once I get about three miles onto the canal, then I'm just out in the desert running along the waterway.

All right, and you're a lone wolf runner?

What's that?

You're a lone wolf runner?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You ever encounter.

Are you seeing big game out there?

Is it just snakes?

What are you encountering in the Phoenix desert or in that?

Yeah, no, just small stuff.

I mean, we get.

We get javelina into the city every now and then, so you'll see those guys running around.

Lots of coyotes.

You know, they're well fed out here with all the suburban moms that have chickens.

So they're pretty nice looking coyotes.

They're.

They usually don't bother you because they're so well fed.

So, yeah, that's the pack I run with, basically, are the coyotes out here.

They eat the chickens and teach little kids important lessons about the circle of life.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Okay.

You sent this to me, and I think it's a really great conversation, a really interesting conversation because I've lived it, so I'll intro it.

And you and you put some, put some flesh around what you were thinking.

But I mean you posed it as what do I think about in the middle of a.

Let's say it's easier, easiest to concept in a hundred miler, but fill in the blank on whatever distance.

This works down to the 10k if you're running a hundred miler, but that race also offers a hundred K, what do you think about when they offer you a mid race downgrade to a shorter distance so you can make the decision in the race and downgrade.

Am I, am I capturing the essence of the question?

Yeah, exactly.

Just kind of like the DNF culture that surrounds the ultra trail running world.

So I didn't know that this was a thing.

I didn't know that there were races that advertised this option.

Arabica has, you know, a zero, you know, drop down type of policy.

So yeah, you know, where I run and race, it's, it's not on my radar.

So it just got me thinking, you know, because as.

And this is more.

We're going to take both sides of the coin, right?

The amateur impact and the elite impact.

Because I think it's two radically different concepts and how I think about it, you know, but this, this DNF thing, right?

Like we're all, you know, amateur hobbyists who have full time jobs, right?

We've got spouses, we've got families, we've got kids that we're juggling and yet we're still pouring in every ounce of energy and free time into the sport.

You know, we're doing it for, you know, 15 weeks, training blocks and beyond, right?

We're stacking training blocks year over year.

And it's like you invest all of this, right, energy and effort and time, not, not even considering the money that you invest into the race.

And a lot of people are doing it for healthy reasons, mentally, physically, addiction, avoidance, everything, right?

And you go to this race and for one reason or another, 100 milers are freaking hard, right?

So yeah, you end up not being able to get it done.

What do you get?

You get a dnf, right?

A dnf.

It's a failure.

And it seems kind of asinine to me that running 50 miles is recorded on some, you know, arbitrary website like ultra signup as it did not finish.

And then you've got to go in and create, you know, it cascades this whole entire culture of like now you got to do your DNF post and you got to talk about how, you know, it's not about the finish, it's about the journey and that we're all better because of what we did.

And showing up at the start line is, you know, the battle and you know, it creates this whole lexicon.

I think that's just kind of a social construct.

If we just allowed us to celebrate what we actually fucking did.

Like it kind of ruffled me up a little bit.

And this morning I'm already fired up again thinking about this stupid DNF culture that we self impose on each other.

Yeah, man.

Okay, I'll say this.

I largely dislike your boy Scott Jurek's posts.

Okay.

That's my opening position.

I think he's talent for days and his ability to exegete the trail running culture.

So hear that as well.

Massively impressed.

But what he has made fun of really well and I use a sophisticated word like exegete because I think the way that he's memeing is exposing silliness within the culture and allows people to laugh.

So I'm saying all those things are important.

So I also want you to hear I like him.

He makes fun of the DNF post pretty well.

Like the, you know, we're all in this for these other reasons and I've lived in that world and I get it.

I mean on some levels you gotta make sense of it.

You gotta make sense of the world somehow.

You've gotta have some sort of like North Star guiding principle.

If I failed at something, how do I make this not a waste?

How do I need to look at this?

I get, I love all that.

I love thinking through that.

I love the headiness of that.

But you know, then, you know, you see.

So Corinne Malcolm posts her DNF tale and everybody.

So what does it say about the culture that they have to post their DNF thing?

You know what I mean?

It feels like surely it's authentic and I'm sure they've, they've learned these lessons that they put in there.

But does anybody just say well DNF'd or does anybody just not even talk about it?

You know, Jim's always going to bring up his story of why he didn't finish shit in Chamonix.

And so you get, you know, got Corinne, everybody not picking on Corrine.

Just she, she was the one that came to mind most recently.

Hayden does it these like Beast of the Trail, like these killers, amazing competitors.

And then they do their DNF post.

Why do you think they think they have to do it?

I don't think they have to do anything, no.

But I think Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people who are intro running are philosophical, right?

Absolutely.

We spend a lot of time by ourselves and in our own heads.

And so it would make sense that we would want to archive that experience.

You know, I think we're communal, so we want to share it with others and, you know, hope to inspire others through that story or, you know, encourage others or help others.

Right.

So I don't, you don't have to know, but I think it's a good opportunity to connect with people when you do.

But again, like I'm getting, we're getting sidetracked because like the core of this is like the amateur runner, not the professionals.

The professionals will unpack a second here.

But like you and I, like, yeah, you know, the average Joe, like you sign up for 100 miler and you get to mile 75 and your day's over and you, you did not finish.

Like, where did this, where did it really come from?

Like, in no other sport, like I go have a bad round of golf, I shoot like 10 strokes worse than I wanted to.

I still have a score.

It's not, hey, did not finish.

I see.

I still have, I still have, I still have something accomplished.

Yeah.

You know, within the sport.

Why are we allowing the sport to just be this like such a binary thing?

Like where it's like, you signed up for 100 miler, you ran 60, you are, did not.

You are a DNF.

Right.

Like, does Ultra signup need a competing site that archives things a little bit differently and kind of competes for the narrative of how the sport works?

Okay, I'm tracking with you, but I don't know.

I'm not tracking insofar as I have some creativity to support you.

So help me.

What could be another metric if you made it 60 and 100 miles?

What's another way of thinking about that?

Yeah, whatever.

What shows up, whatever the next distance is that the race would have offered.

Like, I don't think there's, I mean there might be.

I mean, even if they don't offer it, like let's say it's a hundred mile or.

Right.

And they don't offer the 100k, but you've gone 61.2 miles or greater then at.

Or the race would just designate it beforehand.

At this aid station, once you, once you eclipse this aid station, you have successfully finished the hundred K.

If you drop somewhere later on, you'll be considered a dropped hundred mile runner who completed 100k.

If you drop at this aid station, you are a 50 mile, you know, complete or, you know, 50k, whatever.

Like we can get into the details there, but somehow, you know, set this up.

You know, it's not, it's not about, it's not about participation awards.

The guy's actually fucking running 60 miles.

So it's not some sort of like sentimental, like soppy Hallmark card that you're getting for completing 5k out of the 100k.

I'm not going down that path.

I'm not soft in that nature.

But like, it just kills me.

Like we talk about how uplifting this sport should be, and then you just get stamped with like a red DNF.

Mark, the scarlet letter.

Miles.

Yeah, I.

Okay, now I'm with you.

And I love this.

And here's where my mind immediately goes, is I think there is some utility to say, what did you start out to do that day and did you do it, but should you not?

So, I don't know, I see it as two columns, right?

But yeah, I mean, so my, my working example of this and my many DNFs at the, a hundred mile distance, eight of ten DNFs at the 100 mile distance I ran, let's see, one year I ran Zion five times.

Both of my finishes, red Zion, three DNFs there.

But one year I ran it and I came in, I don't remember my mask gonna be a little bit off.

I was two miles.

There's an aid station there in the virgin desert that there was just a sign like, hey, you're coming in here, you're doing the hundred miler.

The course route is such that if you want to downgrade to the 100k right now turn right 2 miles and if you want to do the 100 miler, turn left.

Well, I came into that aid station and I was, I was maxed.

And my, you know, number of problems, who knows if they were real, I probably made them up in my head.

I think at this point I'm pretty convinced that all my DNFs are purely in my head and I quit.

And someone's like, no, you keep going.

Just turn right, take two miles.

Take that, you can walk that in.

You can, you can walk those two miles in an hour, two hours if you want.

You got plenty of time.

I was like, that's not what I'm here for.

I'm here for the 100 mile or so.

I'm gonna quit.

I'm gonna quit now.

I'm not gonna quit in two miles and that and that.

And I have no regrets.

But to your point, I wonder if that.

How it would change things if we knew that there were two columns, Because Lord knows we run on oftentimes simply.

So it'll show up on Strava.

Would it change how we run races if we know it's going to show up on an Ultra signup?

Because everybody I talk to, before I do an interview on the podcast or anything, I go to their Ultra Signup page and check them out, I size them up, I learn about who they are.

So I gotta imagine the same way that Strava forces us to make bad decisions in our training.

A change in Ultra signup metrics would do the same, but in a really fun way.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, that's good.

I mean, runners are so, you know, manic and anal about their Strava runs that they'll jog in a parking lot for 0.2 miles to get to the nearest whole mile.

Right.

But we won't go two miles down the trail to get to the whole 100k finish.

No, just.

Just DNF here.

Right.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe if somehow Strava linked into Ultra Sinup.

So it would show you that in that dnf you went 60 miles.

Because not every DNF's the same.

Right.

You're looking at some dudes Ultra signup and it says DNF and it says 80 miles.

You're like, well, that dude went 80 miles into his DNF journey.

The other guy pulled the plug at mile 31.

Like, you know, not.

Not all DNFs are created the same.

Gosh.

Good point.

For someone who's DNF the hundred so many times and tries to slay that beast.

And I hope to do it 20 more times to try.

Great point.

I would love to know that, to see that.

Yeah.

At Bryce one year it was 36 miles, but every other one has been north of 50.

Bryce another year was mile 51, but Zion has been a DNF at 78, 60 and 50.

Right.

That is that.

I mean, 36 versus DNF at 78, that's just enjoyable.

Regardless of its utility.

That's enjoyable.

Data.

To be able to call up on my Ultra signup page itself, to not have to drill down.

That's.

That's a really great idea.

Right.

So I'm sending this podcast up to the owners of Ultra Signup.

David.

Yeah.

I'm going to make Strava, you know.

Yeah.

Get a partnership with Strava and just have the activity that the runner.

The runner's feed from Strava link into Ultra signup and.

Yeah, there you go.

That's fun.

Okay.

What do you.

Go ahead.

Yeah, yeah.

So the elites.

Right.

So that's.

I think that's a whole different concept because elites go into races with much different intentions than.

Yeah.

Than most all of us do.

Right.

Like maybe once I've gone into a 50k race where I said I'm going out at, you know, a suicide pace And I'm okay DNFing this one if it doesn't come together.

And I DNF'd it.

Right.

So, like, that was the time where I gave myself the freedom to do that.

Right.

Go out and race it like a 5k and see what happens.

Just out of curiosity.

Sake.

Right.

And that's basically the professional life of how they race.

Like every time you're running with that mindset.

So I get their dnf.

They have injury avoidance.

They've got a livelihood to make off of it.

It's not just the hobby.

Yeah.

But at the same time, I have to wonder too, like, what, What's.

What kind of scar tissue does the DNF have on a elite runner?

Because we're starting to see some elite runners who are collecting DNS now to where almost, you know, they go a full calendar year with nothing but DNFs.

Wow.

And that's.

That's crazy that.

I mean, the psychology of that.

I mean, no doubt there's a, There's a.

Something in depth to explore in the psychology.

My mind immediately goes to as a fan, because they race so rarely.

I, I mean, I want to see them go all out.

I love that.

Go out like a 5k at 100 mile or whatever.

But I.

If they, if they burn up, burn out, I want them to quit.

I want them to dnf.

Because as hard as it is to wait so long between races and being a Jim Walmsley fan, I, you know, I.

I wanted to see him get the win.

And it was the year that he got like 14 oh something.

I loved that day.

If I had been at UTMB this year when Jim Walmsley DNFs, or previous years when he DNFs, I'd be really disappointed because.

But I'm only disappointed because I wanted to see him win that day.

The year that Jim hung in and got fourth going up that hill with the cattle and all that sort of stuff.

I mean, he knows his body, his and he's surrounded by people that are supportive and helpful.

I don't care about your 4th place finish.

Save what you got.

Don't hurt yourself.

Come back to the next race and win it.

That's what I'm here for, and that's what you get paid for.

Back to the discussion about Courtney.

We have this perception that because it's outdoor and outdoor sports, that everyone's just out doing work on their soul now.

I am, and I'm paying for it.

I have a day job, but these people out there are working.

So I want to see you out there winning.

And if you're not going to win dnf, just fold it.

Save everything you have.

Don't hurt yourself if you.

I get it.

Jim finished UTMB because he wanted to.

He needed to close the loop.

There's a psychology to that.

So I celebrate that he made the right choice.

That's not what I'm questioning, but I'm there to see my favorite person win.

If you're not going to win, just quit.

Yeah.

It's just crazy.

You know, even like something like cycling, you watch the Tour de France and these, like, you know, these riders who, you know, are supposed to contend for the, you know, the victory and, you know, by early on in the Tour, they're kind of already out of it.

Right.

But, like, they're still gonna finish.

Like, they finish the stages.

They still.

That is really good.

They still finish the Tour.

Right.

They still get something out of it that, like.

Yeah, I just can't imagine.

Like, it's.

It's really underappreciated how hard it's got to be to be a professional ultra runner, specifically, like the 100 mile distance.

Like.

Yeah.

You know, you go out and have a bad marathon, you're still finishing the marathon.

Maybe you're just five to ten minutes slower than, you know, than what you wanted as an elite runner.

Like, you still finished.

Like, it's wild.

Is.

Is there another sport where people just don't finish?

I don't know.

Maybe.

Right?

Like, maybe you want to go summit Everest or some other sort of, like, you know, his monumental peak, and you can't.

You just don't do it.

Because usually it's weather, you know, permitting, not so much physical, but I can't think of anything else that you build up for and then you go and attempt it and it's just some zero game.

It's all or nothing.

Yeah.

Really, really interesting to think about it on that level.

I mean, if I am looking.

Yeah.

You think about other Sport, nascar, whatever you finish, it's not even unless you get in a major accident.

It's not even in the consciousness.

When the Yankees were down three games to not to none in the series, they still had to go play again because there was still a fight and chance, you know, they could come back.

Red Sox did it to them in 104 or something like that.

Right.

Three games.

You still still show up.

And in that sport, maybe, yeah, you can come back.

And when you're down 3 0.

Yeah, but that in our sport, you can just quit.

So that's wild.

It makes sense because it's hard.

Yeah, but only I only want to give the excuse to amateurs that, yeah, it's hard.

Of course it is.

Maybe you didn't have time to travel, but if you're professional, that feels.

That's just a it.

Stop provoking, if nothing else.

Right.

So I don't know.

I think maybe we'll see the sport evolve.

That's what this conversation's about.

Right.

So, yeah.

Maybe people haven't even thought about, should the DNF be something that we revisit and revise within the sport at the amateur level.

It just seems like you started it off with, with your boy Scott Jurek.

Like, it just seems like I ran 72 miles and all I got was this DNF post.

Right.

Yeah.

So, huh.

Well, did you hear about the Russian plane?

Yeah.

So Marley Dickinson, who had on the show wrote, wrote the article, got the tip that run buck.

I think that's how you say it was taking some runners in a, in a Russian plane.

A sanctioned Russian plane.

Meaning don't.

If you're an American or Canadian, you and or British, you do not get on a Russian plane.

But this company, like straight out of like Looney Tunes, took all of the Russian insignia and logos on the plane and they covered it with a sticker, trying to conceal, actively trying to conceal the fact that it was this Russian aircraft and Russian company.

And when Marley published the article, the plane was in the air carrying 15 people from South Africa to Antarctica to run a 24 hour race.

And these people are paying $10,000 apiece, something like that, for this race.

The same company, they're the ones who put on the seven marathons in seven days on seven continents.

And so I got marketed to for that.

I was like, wow, that's really interesting.

How do they even handle that logistically?

Well, the answer is, is that you, you use a Russian airliner and you put stickers over it and they're making a Lot of money per runner.

And they're putting their runners in a really dicey situation.

And that is, if you're an American, you're on that plane.

Our government's not happy with you.

Where does your mind go on this?

What?

It's a bizarre thing.

It's geopolitical in its nature, but.

But it's a running company.

Like, where do you go?

I just don't think it's going to be major news because it's just if this was utmb, then I would say that, yeah, this would be.

People be waiting for this.

This would be, you know, the Gary Robbins Whistler debacle 2.0.

This would be, you know, UTMB Russia gate.

So, I mean, I don't think this is going to really move anybody's.

Like, I don't think it was going to be really fired up about it.

Like, I think we'll all agree that basically, like, these people are schmucks.

Like, you know, this is clear violation.

Like, you know, I think hopefully the, the affluent people who can afford this, because I think it was something like 20 some thousand dollars per person or whatever the cost was.

Like, hopefully this affluent community, you know, realizes that this is no longer a company they can trust to travel safely.

Right.

Internationally.

Right.

Or just do things with, you know, morals and ethics that you would expect from a business that is handling something this sophisticated.

Yeah.

And I just want to.

Because I kind of teed it up for you and you didn't swing at it.

So I just want to throw it out there.

$20,000 per person to run the seven marathon, seven continents, seven days, which is similar to Cocodona prices.

That's your joke, not mine.

Yes.

I was going to get to it in the second round, but yeah.

Okay.

I just didn't want that to be lost.

That's too good.

Yeah, go ahead.

I mean, yeah, I mean, just to keep harping on it, like, this is where like, you know, kind of like we pick and choose the moral soapbox we want to stand on and boycott or rally around and light.

Light the torches and get the pitchforks out and really demonize a group.

Right.

Like UTMB got in trouble because they had Dacia as a sponsor, Right.

Who was in the, in the auto industry.

Here's a group that's taking a, what, 747 type.

I mean, this is a huge passenger, it's enormous commercial economy jet.

Right.

And they're filling it with 25 runners, right?

25 runners, right.

So like this, like, when you want to talk about, like, you know, carbon footprint.

Right.

Our sport does not have a carbon footprint allowance or conscious.

Because here are people who can afford to go to Antarctica.

Yeah, right.

There's, there's.

And there's also probably people who are upset and angry now that they're learning that we do ultras on Antarctica that should be protected land.

Nobody should touch foot on it.

So we're traveling to a sacred land by commercial airline with only like 25 passengers on a Russian branded plane.

It seems like it should be something that really lights the fire under the.

Activist, wakes up the activist.

Yeah, I don't think it will.

Yeah, yeah, I think you're probably right.

I do love this UTMB take.

And you brought up Gary Robbins.

Remind me of a conversation we also had offline.

So I'll tee it up and you'll be able to kind of build the house around it.

Did you hear an interview with.

Was it Jason Schlarb talking about his take on the Gary Robbins UTMB debacle?

I remember you telling me, and it was the first time I'd heard a take like this, and I found it to be refreshing.

Is that sufficient to tee it up?

Yeah, yeah, I know where you're going with it.

And again, I'm not gonna.

So I'm gonna be paraphrasing and certainly if I get anything wrong or misquoted, you know, just don't quote me on it.

But essentially the gist of it was, is that he was able to partition out basically, like, the issue that he, you know, he was upset about Gary Robbins, you know, and his personal impact, but also was able to simultaneously say that, hey, the Whistler UTMB event is the best and only opportunity right now to create a North American UTMB in Chamonix.

Right.

Like, basically, like, we can't lift the start line of the elite field in the men's and women's UTMB race and place it on Hard Rock.

Okay.

We want the Hard Rock course to run competitively like UTMB does.

Like, that would be fascinating to see them attack a mountainous course like that with the depth of field, but that'll never happen.

So what his alternative was was, hey, this, this Whistler event does provide an opportunity where you can have the depth of field on a North American race course.

If I'm.

And I think that's.

That's the direction that he was going with that.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

And I think on.

On the level of the.

What you were talking about with the plane flying from Russia to South Africa, South Africa to Antarctica, back and all of the, you know, 25 millionaires who were able to get to South Africa and how they got there and all this.

There should be some celebration around that.

In as much as it's true, let's assume it is for the conversation.

We should celebrate that if it's our great American runners and great Canadian runners that the transportation and therefore the, let's say, I think they might say the carbon footprint, the emissions, all that sort of stuff is significantly less.

And so we do have the chance almost.

Yeah, to, I think about the mountain, the big mountain, the beautiful area, UTMB's ability to facilitate it.

And then I also believe that Gary Robbins race is probably going to thrive, assuming UTMB's thrives too.

They can thrive at the same time.

They can thrive together.

Absolutely.

I mean, I think that's definitely something where somebody goes over, maybe they run the UTMB Whistler event and they fall in love with the area and then yeah, they want to go back, but they want to now experience it through Gary Robbins lens.

Right.

Like, I just think bringing more people into the area will just lift, you know, the entire race community, not just that weekend.

Right.

But beyond as people want to explore more and see what they've got to offer over there.

Yeah, I mean, utmb.

I was talking to a buddy here, he used to be the head of sport for Singapore, but did significant.

He essentially facilitated bringing a UFC type sport to Myanmar and he's, he's looking to get this job at UTMB right now because UTMB needs to grow in order to, to satisfy their business plan.

They have to grow, they have to grow in Asia specifically and, but really everywhere.

Because the idea is that you need to be able to run UTMB races in order to run the UTMB race, the main event.

And if you live in certain parts of Asia and you're a great runner, you can't, you have to invest $10,000 to go get a couple of stones, a few stones and you're not going to do that three times.

So they're missing out on a massive amount of business from a business standpoint, massive amount of great runners who can't do that.

So here we are in America saying, hey, if UTMB is inevitable, if it's an inevitable thing, if the Ironman deal, it's like this is happening, this, it's going here.

I don't think the World Trail Majors is going to even touch what UTMB is trying to do.

If it's an inevitable force, then we need Whistler and we need all of them.

And we need Gary.

We need what Gary's doing, but we need it.

We need that.

I like Jason's take and I like your paraphrase of it.

Yeah.

I mean, because I, you know, I get some type of fatigue towards utmb, Right.

It's, you know, every year, it's just, you know, it's Chamonix.

You always are going back to the same place with this, knowing that that's the only place that's gonna provide you with the depth of field.

And so, you know, yeah, it would be great.

Like I've always thought it would be.

Like, why can't we just lift that same starting line and drop it somewhere in the United States?

But again, we're handcuffed by, you know, the preservation and protection of the lands, which is kind of like.

I mean, I don't know, to me, it kind of like, think it kind of seems a little hypocritical.

Right?

Like with, with protecting lands and, you know, being environmentally conscious.

We'll outsource that, though, to Europe.

We're fine.

If Europe wants to have thousands run their trails, we'll go and participate in the abuse of the trails.

So we're not so concerned about the actual physical land.

Because as long as we get an okay to do it, as long as a government official or body tells us it's okay to go and abuse this land, we'll do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

At home.

Not in my backyard.

That.

Come on now.

Like, it would seem.

But like, I, I just, I tease that a little bit.

I pick at that because it's like, I mean, the trails at Mont Blanc, when I see them, they still look beautiful.

They still look managed.

They still look like they're authentic.

Yes.

Yeah.

So why can't.

Why could it.

What's the case for us not being able to accommodate that here?

We're not capable of doing the same things that they do.

Let me drive it home.

The.

There was a runner who, because of the Dasha Dacia car company sponsoring UTMB back to that point, he said, I'm not running UTMB this year.

I am not going to go.

This was last year.

And to drive the point home, I don't even know, I don't remember who said it.

And that guy was not at utmb.

And guess what?

Now no one has any idea what that guy's been up to the last two years.

And there may be a whole bunch of people who have.

Throwing that out there.

And then they're not going.

And now we have no idea who they are.

So I Don't know.

I mean, I don't necessarily know the overall answer, but I do like this idea, regardless of why, of being able to have that to.

I want that in my backyard.

And if the closest we can get is to.

What did someone call it the other day?

America's top hat, Canada.

I'll go there.

That's awesome.

Right.

But ultimately I'd like it to be here, you know.

Yes.

But it seems like the conversation.

There's not much appetite in the trail space by, you know, most of the community and you know, the people who run the races to try or, you know, even advocate for larger race fields.

Right.

Like to expand permits.

Right.

Or I don't know, maybe it's just a government agency thing where they just get an iron fist that's, you know, basically impenetrable.

But it seems like we kind of also agree that we shouldn't have more people running the western states trail, for example, or we shouldn't have more people running hard Rock.

Like it seems like we kind of fall in line with that and embrace the preservation, you know, standpoint.

Yeah, yeah.

I.

So Texas, I believe is 97% privately owned land, 3% public lands.

But it's not conducive to, you know, a competitor, it would seem like.

I would wonder if there was, you know, if, if there was a state that some of this wilderness.

There was larger wilderness areas that were privately owned.

Wyoming might come to mind.

I wonder if, I wonder if that could be a solution where someone caught the vision and they essentially had a Woodstock, you know, where that guy just had that land in New York and let everybody come to it.

It'd be amazing if the community could rally around a private land 100 miler.

You know, I think about like the outsiders or something like that, you know, like where they all have their car, their headlights are lighting it up.

It's like just this badass grassroots.

These are the best.

I don't know if private lands are a solution.

I don't know if people like private land that much.

Right.

That would be a cool image though, to see all these.

Oh, wouldn't that be great?

Yeah.

See Jim step out of the car with a car with like suicide doors and like come out and like they're literally just going to go for it.

Like a hundred mile or grassroots.

Yeah.

Especially if they're, especially if they're gas powered carburetor engine, you know, really just get that nice smell waffling at the start, you know.

Yeah.

Take.

Take full advantage of it being private land.

Yeah.

But okay, so sometimes I'm out running and you know, on my better days when I'm on trail and I don't know the culture around unleashed dogs on trails and I, to be honest, I don't even know the rules.

Are they allowed to be off leash?

Are they supposed to be on leash?

I imagine some of these foothill trails that I love so much in Salt Lake, they've got to be on leash.

But it's probably my least favorite thing in the world to run up on a dog on a trail.

And when the owner then looks at you like, the dog like jumps on me while I'm running and the owner looks at me like, isn't this cute?

My dog?

Yeah, you know, that stuff, that stuff kills me.

You run into dogs out there?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, dogs are, you know, hikers, best friends, you know, companions.

I love dogs, by the way.

I love them.

That's when I get jumped on while running.

Yeah, no, I agree.

I think I've heard this is a com.

This is definitely a topic.

I think all of us kind of vent privately because nobody, you know, nobody wants to kick a dog off down, right.

Like the dogs, they're always, you know, sympathetic.

Everybody's dog owners, but yeah, I mean, it's like, come on, man, have a little bit of etiquette, right?

Like, you know, get your dog leashed up.

Like.

Yeah.

I've had people, I think, who have been injured, you know, by trying to avoid, you know, a dog trail.

Yeah, a dog that was on trail.

You know, you make a sudden move or you know, just something that was unplanned and yeah, you roll your ankle and you're just like, damn, dude, like this stupid.

What about E bikes?

They're kind of the same thing to me.

Yeah.

Then we, yeah, that's what I was telling you was like, kind of like, you know, how if we were to have a head to head matchup, right.

Of like, if we could just remove one from the trail experience, it would be hard to pick.

Right.

The off leashed dog versus the, you know, general mountain biker.

The E bike, the E bike guy goes even a notch up, I think of the.

Yeah.

Of the general mountain biker because he's heavy.

He's kind of an asshole.

Even going uphill, usually, usually if you're going uphill, you're passing the mountain bikers and it's kind of the one opportunity that you can exchange pleasantries with each other because they're going slow enough and they're not as, you know, focused on their trail.

But the E Bike guy.

No, he's still just blasting by you.

Yeah.

I feel like the.

I mean, I don't even know.

Like, it blows my mind.

I think being on the E bike would probably be a blast.

It's just like.

I don't know.

I mean, as a runner, like, just a number of times, they're so quietly just flying up right behind you, not quite knocking you over, but then yelling like, I'm in their way.

And I.

I mean, I am, technically, I am in their way, but.

Pretty crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The mountain biker, I think, is the thing that we encounter most over here.

A lot of trails are basically.

You know, there's a big mountain biking community.

They do a lot of trail work.

So, I mean, I think, you know, they.

They do kind of like, you know, buff out the trail so that they're, you know, they've got the berms in the right places and, you know, these little jumps, like they're maintaining the trail, but are they.

Yeah.

Are they abusing it in a way that, you know, it's not as natural landscape anymore.

Right.

So it's like there's a case to be made that, yes, they're doing trail maintenance, but they're really doing trail alterations more so than anything.

So, you know, I can't stand that.

There's a certain.

There's.

There's certain areas over here where like.

Yeah, they're.

They're well known, like downhill sections and I mean, these guys are just ripping downhill, you know, but it's like part of the trail.

So it's like I'm coming up and I'm having to jot, you know, jump off trail just to avoid.

Yeah.

This guy screaming down.

Yeah.

It's never good.

I want.

And going in the winter, you know, I guess it's a little bit less.

I don't mind the.

I mean, I get running with the dog because of the big game.

I hate big game.

I hate running into and running anything.

I'm typically a, you know, fraidy cat out there, but I don't.

I don't.

Yeah, I don't love the dog jumping on me, especially in the cold, running in the snow.

Maybe it's a little bit less.

A little bit more solitude out there, but.

Yeah, I don't know if you got a dog and you run with them off leash.

I do absolutely love you and I.

And I do love your dog, but get off my lawn, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's just, you know, I would imagine.

I would like to think that the right mindset when you're bringing your dog into a trail is to assume everyone you encounter is afraid of dogs.

You know, don't assume that everybody has a comfort level with dogs and, you know, should already know that your dog is, you know, basically part human and is going to greet you with just, you know, the sweetest, kindest heart.

Right.

Like sometimes you just get a little comfortable knowing your dog's behavior and assuming everybody else just engages with dogs with the same assumption.

Yeah, I mean, to prove I'm a dog person, like, we literally waited to do this family traveling around the world until our dog passed.

And that was an indefinite thing.

And when our dog passed, that kind of helped, was one of the many doors that opened for us.

I like dogs, so that's important because I'm sure most people aren't going to love the final minutes of this anyway.

Training, how's it going?

We'll, we'll wind down with training.

Are you out every morning still saw some big miles, Speedy miles.

Yeah, yeah, we're having to pivot like that's the life of a, of an ultra runner with a family and a wife and she bought a travel trailer a couple weeks ago and we're fully gutting that thing before a trip here in a couple weeks.

Right.

So it's basically, we've got a insane amount of work to do on the trailer and a short time to do it.

And so, yeah, running is going to have to pivot a little bit to make sure that I'm not all banged up and not wanting to get out there on my knees and do stuff.

But I mean, she's taken over most, most of the, you know, the decorating and everything.

But yeah, exactly.

Something always new to kind of derail the plans that we thought we had.

You know, we, we build out these nice, beautiful 15 week plans and life doesn't work that way.

Yeah, well, all right.

Going into, going into the colder months, less there's less events, I mean, there's certainly going to be some fun Southern hemisphere stuff is, you know, Tara Warra, I think, you know, that's February.

There's just not going to be a ton to talk about.

So if you listen to these episodes with Brian and I and you have any thoughts on stuff you want to hear us talk about, please let us know.

Leave a comment.

If you listen on Spotify or shoot us emails or direct messages on Instagram, that's where we're most active.

But yeah, yeah, if you're still tuned in.

Yeah, let us know if we need to unpack the election.

We can certainly take, you know, a nice little eight week break from Bad Runners take and get into the, you know, the political sphere.

Bad Runner's take on politics.

Exactly.

Right.

Winter edition of Ultra Runners.

It would we would be remiss to not mention the amount of DNF themed stories and posts that were made by our trail friends on the social medias yesterday.

So they were very dnf.

We could possibly, you know, have a topic there of, you know, comparing the different posts that you saw that were in the same spirit of the DNF post.

So, yeah, send them along.

Send along your favorites and we'll see.

We'll just see if there's anyone.

Yeah.

Little reaction video.

Yeah.

All right.

Let's do this again soon.