Could one of the most effective wellbeing tools already be sitting in a knitting bag? Sometimes the simplest habits can have a bigger psychological impact than we expect. In this episode of Psychology, Actually, Dr Marianne Trent is joined by Dr Mia Hobbs and Dr Paula Redmond to explore how knitting and crochet can support mental health, emotional wellbeing and self-care through evidence-informed psychological principles.

#MentalHealth #Knitting #Psychology

• Highlights: 00:00
• Introduction
• 00:36 Why knitting benefits mental health
• 04:19 The rise of analogue hobbies
• 05:00 Why younger people are embracing knitting
• 09:13 Learning to knit from childhood
• 11:23 Knitting, safety and self-compassion
• 15:40 Knitting during grief and psychological distress
• 16:25 Is knitting an affordable wellbeing tool?
• 18:18 The evidence for knitting and mental health
• 20:38 Challenging the "grandma hobby" stereotype
• 21:58 Can knitting support hand health?
• 23:36 Creative Restoration and therapeutic knitting
• 25:54 Knitting, attention and screen time
• 29:39 Why I Knit podcast
• 30:43 When Work Hurts podcast
• 32:10 Where to learn more

Links:

📲 Connect with Dr Mia and Dr Paula Redmond here: https://www.instagram.com/knittingistherapeutic/ https://www.instagram.com/drpaularedmond/

Creative Restoration Webpage: https://creativerestoration.org/about-us/

🫶 To join my podcast membership to get early access to episodes and support the show head to: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support or to the Apple Podcasts App: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-aspiring-psychologist-podcast/id1605628278 or to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOwjrIP_jatiqlAivJE2mgQ/join

📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0

📖 To check out The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97

💡 To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/membership

🖥️ Check out my short courses for aspiring psychologists and mental health professionals here: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/online-courses

Ask Marianne your most pressing psychology career question and she will send you a FREE bespoke reply! Grab your free psychology success guide here and fill in the most pressing concern box: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk (scroll to the bottom of the page)

✍️ Get your FREE Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/free-resources

📱Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the Aspiring Psychologist Book, Clinical Psychologist book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent

💬 To join my free Facebook group and discuss your thoughts on this episode and more: https://www.facebook.com/groups/aspiringpsychologistcommunity

Like, Comment, Subscribe & get involved:

If you enjoy the podcast, please do subscribe and rate and review episodes.

⚠️ Disclaimer

This content is for informational and educational purposes only. It does not constitute medical, psychological, or professional advice. Any actions taken based on this content are at your own risk.

© Dr Marianne Trent

What if one of the most powerful mental health tools isn't an app, isn't a self-help book, and isn't even therapy? What if it's a ball of wool and a pair of needles? In this episode, clinical psychologists, Dr. Mia Hobbs and Dr. Paula Redmond join me to discuss why knitting and crochet might be doing far more for our mental health than most people realise. Hi, welcome along to psychology, actually. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist, and I'm joined here today by two fellow clinical psychologists as well. We've got Dr. Paula Redmond and Dr. Mia Hobbs. Welcome along, guys.

Thank you for having us.

Hiya.

Thank you for being here. So today we are thinking about the wellbeing, or should we say wellbeing benefits of crafting hobbies like knitting and crochet. Could you tell us a little bit, perhaps Paula, about why you think this is a really great thing for people to be doing?

Yeah, thanks, Maryanne. Well, this is our favourite subject, so we could talk about it all day. I think that, I guess, Mia and I know from our personal experience as knitters and crafters about how we've benefited from having a creative practise that's something that has been really consistent in our lives. And I guess are really passionate about sharing some of those benefits more broadly. So I guess what lots of knitters in particular and crochet as we kind of think about those two things together talk about is how knitting can really support a kind of soothing process. So the rhythmic, repetitive movements can be really relaxing and really help us kind of physiologically wind down, activate that soothing system, help kind of calm the body, are a form of really accessing mindfulness. And for many of us who might find that difficult just to kind of sit still and be mindful, having something that helps us access it is really beneficial and really useful.

So it can help kind of calm the mind as well.

And what is also really great about knitting is not only does it kind of do that soothing bit, but it can also kind of activate that drive system in terms of giving us a sense of accomplishment, the kind of joy and pleasure of dealing with the sensory materials, the colours and the yarn, tapping into creativity, personal expression, identity values, making something meaningful, showing care through gift giving, and also being able to offer us a way of connecting with other people, whether that's in knitting spaces, knitting communities, in person, online, through creating things for other people. It has this wide range of benefits. And because knitting and crochet are so diverse in terms of what you can make, the kind of projects, it's kind of infinite possibility, you never kind of get to the end of that. There's always something to learn, something to do, new ways of expressing yourself.

And because it is so portable, you can carry it in your bag, you can take it anywhere. It's a really practical, accessible way of accessing all of these different benefits that you can tap into intentionally. If you need something that's going to really help calm you down, you can maybe choose an easy project that you don't really have to think. You can just get into the rhythm of it and it might even help you concentrate in a meeting or stay present or wait for something tricky. But if you're wanting something that might really take your mind off distressing thoughts, for example, cut through rumination, choosing a project that is more complex, it really requires you to think and focus can be really helpful. So it's both kind of practically accessible, but also psychologically accessible because you can tap into it in a way that fits with what your psychological needs are.

I love that. I do wish I was better at crafting things, I would say. And I love how portable it is. Mia, I think I even reached out to you last year to say that I was on holiday and I'd seen a lady poolside in a bikini knitting and dancing at the same time. And I was like, wow. It's just really, really nice to see. And I love, before we were chatting, we were talking about the idea of an analogue bag and actually how that can be really, really good for us in a time when we're switched on. Could you tell us your experiences of your analogue activities?

Well, yeah. So I think it's something Paula and I have both been asked by journalists a lot recently in the press that there's this idea of younger people. I always get the generations muddled up, but younger people who are kind of digitally native turning to analogue hobbies. And this concept of an analogue bag had kind of gone a bit viral on social media, which is the idea of having a bag where you put in some analogue hobbies, which could be knitting, some other craft, crosswords, a book. Probably in the same way many of us have packed a bag for our children when we go out for lunch and don't want them to be on a screen and we know they can't sit still. Certainly I used to do that when they were small. And the idea of, and I kind of realised that I'd been carrying one for the last 20 years since I've been carrying my knitting around with me.

But I think part of one of the things journalists have asked us about is why are younger people so interested in what has traditionally been thought of as an older person's hobby? But I think there's something about, as Paula was saying about this kind of sense of achievement, that if you're doing things. I mean, a lot of us in our jobs are doing things we can't see. So few of us have a physical product at the end of our working day. And I don't know about the two of you, but I certainly remember qualifying as a psychologist and finding that hard because I think in the process of being a trainee, I was always striving to meet the next goal. And someone would tell me, I passed that essay or that case report or I knew what the next goal was. And actually becoming a psychologist had been a goal for a super long time.

And when you're probably quite driven as a person and then you get out the other end and you're like doing the nine to five and your goal is helping people feel better, which is really like, it's not very objective. Takes quite a long time. It goes with the ups and downs of life. And that was certainly a time I really felt like I needed this really visible, tangible progress on my knitting project because you can just see that in a way that you can't see progress in therapy. So I think that is really what appeals to younger people. The idea of, I think they feel like they want to get away from screens and do something. Also maybe like a bigger project, something that's a bit slower, takes a bit more concentration and time. But I think having this visible, tangible outcome is really important for lots of us.

Yeah, it really is. And yeah, I'm with you that once you stop getting that kind of external measurement, it could be hard to maybe feel like you're progressing or to feel like you've got those dopamine hits of external validation. I love before we were speaking, I think you said that crochet and knitting is almost being talked about as a grandma hobby. Is that right?

That's what the press love to write, grandma hobby. Yeah. And I think one of the plus sides of social media is, I don't know about you Paula, whether you were doing it when you were like 19, 20, but certainly when I was doing craft then at that point for me, it was cross stitch during my undergrad. And I did feel like I had to hide it from people because no one else was doing that. And I didn't know. Now having interviewed, I don't know how many people I've interviewed on my podcast, 60 people who all, many of them were like, "Oh yeah, I was the one person who brought their knitting to the pub when I was in my 20s. And now I know they're out there." And those people who are now in their 20s can connect on Instagram probably and know that someone else is doing it even if nobody in their pub is doing it.

But I think that there is still a bit of a stigma, I think, especially for younger people about this idea of it being a grandma hobby or for older people. But I don't necessarily think the press helps that by always referring to these things as grandma hobbies.

Oh, thank you. When did you start knitting, Paula? How old were you?

I was probably about seven. We had to knit at school. I grew up in South Africa and there was a tradition of lent knitting. So the 40 days before Easter, everyone had to knit squares and then they would all be put together for blankets for charity. So my grandmother taught me to knit and we had to do it at school. So I feel always very grateful that I was given that skill as a young person because it's something that I really turn to. When there's times when I feel really lost or overwhelmed and I'm like, I don't know what to do. I know I can go to knitting. And it feels very panicky to me if I don't have a project that I can just pick up because it has been a real anchor for me. So I'm very grateful that that was given that gift as a child to have learned.

I feel like I can physically feel it in my body if I haven't knitted. I've never been a smoker, but I remember one of my grandmas used to smoke and she used to kind of get slightly like after her evening meal wanted a cigarette. And she seemed physically jittery. And I feel like I can. It's rare that I have a day where I won't knit a single stitch, but I feel like I can physiologically feel it if I haven't. Yeah.

That's so interesting. It's almost like something around your hands. They need to move to kind of discharge the energy and process your day and create.

Yeah. And I think it's probably been self-perpetuating that it is my chosen coping strategy. And I guess on some level, it's probably also a habit, but certainly haven't really encountered any downsides in terms of as habits

Go.

Yeah. And I think as both of you speak about it, I get this sense of it feeling really safe and like you really get to have that deep exhale. And maybe it's something around that slight mindfulness that allows you to disconnect from all the other stuff that really. I just see that it just really lights you up and it really helps you both to thrive. And I think why this is problematic is that so many people don't know what safety feels like or don't know what contentment and not having this swirling mind and thoughts and pressures. And that's why I love showcasing when people are able to do that. Who wants to talk to me about the safety that comes from that? Yeah.

I was just going to say, I guess that's one of the kind of models that we use in our work around CFT and thinking about how the three circles of emotion, the threat, drive and soothing system work and how knitting really offers us a way of, as you say, of accessing safety. Knitting can be frustrating when you're starting to learn. So that is a reality too, that you've got to kind of get over that hump. But that also offers opportunities for practising and learning some of these skills around noticing your body, being aware of what it feels like, these kind of sensations, how it feels like to get into a soothing rhythm.

And that noticing of you can't really rush knitting or you're going to make mistakes. So you need to be able to slow down. And we often talk about how knitting offers a really low stakes way of relating to all sorts of things that we come up in our daily life, like making mistakes, like frustration tolerance, like having to wait, perfectionism. All of those things will show up in your knitting. But it offers a way to play with that and to relate differently to those things, which then are able to kind of generalise to our life more broadly, as well as just being in the moment helpful and at the end of the day, creating something beautiful that might be something useful or that you give away or that you keep. And often knitters will talk about. Well, knitters differ actually. For some knitters, it's much more about the process and they're really not attached to what they make.

For other people that the finished outcome is really important. For me, the process is absolutely paramount, but the objects are very meaningful. And I have things that are not good making, but mean a lot to me because they were part of either a very difficult part of my life or something that meant a lot. So there's really symbolic meaning and value in the projects.

So that kind of relationship to learning more about ourselves and being able to develop self-compassion through this kind of practise, I think is really valuable. And people talk about that, about knitting being a safe place for them, a way to access safety. And often it's like a really tangible, it's like something to hold onto. People will talk about, and this has been true for me, those kind of worst moments of your life where you're waiting for something or something terrible and you're helpless, but actually being able to hold onto something and just literally have keeping your hands busy while you're doing something that is familiar and soothing can get you through.

That was something I've been supervising a thesis based on the interviews from my podcast with people with experience of psychological distress and how they've used knitting as a tool to manage that. And one of the themes that has come out of that kind of thesis was about this idea of it's something I can always do no matter how dark things are. Or often, for example, with grief, because it's not a problem you can solve. But the idea of being able to do something and the kind of just having this action that you feel like it's always there. I think there's something very important in not feeling out of options for something you can do in really difficult times. So yeah.

Yeah, it really is. And obviously with the cost of living crisis at the moment, how can we make it more accessible for more people? Because I think the last time I saw the price of a ball of wool when I was in a shop, I was a little bit shocked. How is the cost of living crisis impacting on crocheting wool at the moment?

Well, I think it's, I mean, it depends where you go. I mean, wool can be extremely expensive, but you can also get it in charity shops for less than two pounds a bowl. Charity shops are often full of needles. Any knitter will have hundreds of needles they're not using. So you will be able to borrow. You don't need to spend a lot of money. And I think that's one of the things that's really valuable to think of something that has loads of benefits. Some of the studies that we've looked at have, for example, a study looking at knitting in an eating disorder unit in drug and alcohol treatment. One of the things that they talk about is how the amazing potential that knitting has as an intervention, given that it is so cheap, doesn't have a dangerous side effect profile and is so broadly kind of accessible and acceptable to people.

Costs should not be a barrier. You can definitely spend hundreds of pounds, but you can also spend two pounds and have something lovely.

Okay. That's good to know. Maybe I was in a S1P boutique or something at the time. Check out charity

Shops for sure. New yarn. Beautiful. Yeah.

Excellent advice. Thank you. So it sounds like they're starting to become an evidence-based. So even you're creating some evidence-based mirror with thesis that you're supervising, which I love. And then there's other research that's starting to come through that's really cementing how good for people's wellbeing kind of wool-based activities are. And I guess we'd want to see more of that.

Yeah. It's interesting. Betson Corkill, who was a physiotherapist, became the authority in this area of research. She was involved with quite a few of the bigger kind of survey-based research studies in the field of knitting and mental health. And she was talking to me on my podcast about the idea of struggling to get funding. And I think it's a. So as Paula said earlier, as part of the Why Knit Podcast, we've got this journal club series where we look and do a deep dive into the papers in the area. And it's a real shame because some of the ones we've discussed recently, they're not actually that recent. And there's a really, I think it was like 2008, 2007, and really shows amazing a reduction in anxious preoccupation in people with anorexia in an inpatient service. And you think actually probably somewhere like that, there aren't a whole host of interventions.

People might be on bedrest or might have to be seated. They're not going to be allowed to do a lot of movement or any sports or exercise. And to have something that people report is reducing their kind of anxious thoughts, that's really powerful. But actually there hasn't been then further kind of follow up studies. And Bets and Cork Hill spoke about really struggling. If she mentioned the K word, she couldn't get funding. But if she talked about it as a bilateral psychosocial intervention, all of a sudden people, their ears pricked up and they were potentially interested in this new research area. So I think there has potentially been a bit of stigma against it being knitting, but certainly that was her perception as someone who was trying to kind of fight for research funding. I think it's really hard to get all research funded. But certainly there are some studies out there and we're trying to contribute to that.

Something around knitting not being quite sexy enough to hold its own.

I was just going to say, I think that's one of the tricky things about it having this label of being a grandma hobby because it's kind of relegated to this sort of domestic feminine space. And I think it's only been in very recent history of knitting that that's been the case. It always used to be a very. Men used to do it and a very kind of highly appreciated kind of guild, artistic guild until knitting machines came along. And then it started to be more of something that ladies with spare time would be doing. And that has kind of, I think, downgraded the value of it. And it's seen as a grandma hobby when actually it is a powerful psychosocial art practise. And so that I think is part of our motivation is to really showcase it and bring it out of that kind of space.

Thank you, Paula. We're recording this at a point where I've broken my hand. So I've been thinking a lot about hand mobility and hand health and how annoying it is to be incapacitated. Is there much evidence that knitting and crochet is protective of hand health and hand mobility?

I don't know so much about. I guess I think it depends. There's quite a diverse field of issues with hands. I think that there's been some study maybe about neuropathy or maybe pain after chemotherapy and knitting and that reducing. Certainly there are. I've interviewed a physiotherapist who specialises in. She works more with that craft related pain, but also sees people who've got various hand issues who are people who love to knit or craft and want to get back to doing that. And she understands that as somebody who knits as well. So I don't know so much. I do get people obviously hosting a podcast about knitting and its benefits. I get lots of messages from people who say it's helped with various difficulties they've been struggling with, but I don't know what the research is. I guess we focus more on the kind of mental health side of things.

That's your dog, Mia. Is that your dog? Is that not your dog? I heard a dog. Did everyone else hear a dog? Yeah. Okay. Perfect. All right. So you guys have kind of got together and you've started creative restoration. Paula, could you tell us a bit about creative restoration?

Yeah. So we have a kind of little business together where we are creating online courses, webinars, live and on demand where we teach our kind of approach to the mental health benefits of knitting. So we cover kind of wide range of topics. We've got webinars that are focused on unpacking the research around the mental health benefits of knitting. So looking at the science, looking at. We've got a kind of model that Mia has beautifully drawn together with her daughters that illustrates how these things are woven together in theory. And so we've got that looking at kind of knitting and mental health. And then we have more specific offers around knitting and burnout. So my kind of clinical work is around working with health professionals and burnout. So thinking about the role that knitting can play in burnout prevention and recovery, not just for health professionals, but for anyone, parents, all of us who are at risk of overloads and overwhelm.

And we've also got a webinar around attention and focus and the impact of what benefits knitting can offer for us there. We've got an upcoming one about grief, plans about knitting and grief. And then we have our signature online course is called Self Care One Stitch at a Time, which is an acceptance and commitment therapy based course. So it's kind of using knitting as a way of learning ACT-based skills for self-care, but also using ACT to help people make intentional choices about what and how they knit to support their self-care and wellbeing. So that's a kind of online audio course and it's all kind of accessible on our website.

Thank you, Paula. Whilst we're talking about attention then, just before we finish, it's widely said that Netflix have some programming that they do that's second screen friendly so that people can multitask so they can be watching broadly speaking and then still consuming their vertical content. Is knitting different than that? Because obviously we're trying to think maybe that's not the best habits to be developing, but it seems like knitting doesn't quite fall into that second screen category.

Yeah. I guess I would say, I think that Mia, you'd probably agree that knitting in front of TV is definitely. If I don't knit, I will fall asleep 100%. So for me, the knitting supports my TV watching. It helps to concentrate. I think I find it quite hard just to sit still, but if I have something busy, keeping my hands busy, it helps me to do that. It's the same as kind of online training or something. And I guess what it does help though is I think we can think of knitting a bit like occupying that busy working memory so that the rest of our brain is able to settle and be more present with what's there. And then I think that's a richer experience, especially if you're sharing that with someone else. It's less of a kind of social block than you being on your phone, which is also quite exhausting actually.

I think then your mind is really in that divided attention can feel, I suppose, a bit like a junk food type experience. You've been really busy, but it's a bit empty afterwards. Whereas I think for me and for lots of people who we've spoken to, knitting can support that richer, attentional focus. And also you've got something, you're making progress towards something while you're at it.

I think it's also a different channel of input because I think my children sometimes tell me they can read a book and listen to an audiobook at the same time. And I don't think that's true. I think reading something, like reading an Instagram caption at the same time as listening to a podcast, I'm switching attention. Whereas knitting is more like driving a car and having a conversation because it's a muscle memory process. There's no verbal. It's in my hands. And I can choose, that's the other part. One of the great things about knitting is you can just choose. The gradations are easy and difficult. In my corner, I've got complicated things. So I have to read a chart and I've got easy things where I could be doing it while we're having this conversation and you wouldn't know because I'm not looking at my hands at all.

I'm just knitting round in circles. And I think that's the great thing that I can pick up on any one day, what my brain needs. And I guess that's our whole thing is looking at knitting through the lens of self-care, like advocating. That's the lens through which you make choices about your knitting project, that it's there to serve you rather than to get to the end of completing an amazing card again or whatever.

Great. So at its lowest end, this essentially could just be like a A fidget toilet, a squeezy thing to help regulate you and keep you focused. I love that. Okay, thank you. I know both of you have got podcasts. Mia, tell us a little bit about your podcast.

So my podcast is called Why I Knit. So in the main series, I interview each episode, a different knitter about why they knit and how knitting benefits their mental health. So some of them are knitwear designers, some of them are many people who've kind of talked about mental health and knitting, or people have now gone in touch with me and talked about powerful experiences. They've felt that knitting has kind of been beneficial to their mental health. And then in between those, Paula and I create kind of bonus episodes. So some of those are the journal club where we take a deep dive into journal articles and they're actually very popular. We've got quite a lot of health and education professionals who are kind of interested in using knitting to benefit others as part of their work. And we've done some book club episodes and some kind of bonus reflective episodes where we kind of collect themes.

So for example, we've got one coming out soon about low mood where we've gone back and listened to a few episodes where people have talked about depression and low mood and kind of offered our reflections on that. So that's my podcast.

Thank you, Paula. Tell us about your podcast.

Yeah. So my podcast is called When Work Hurts, and it's specifically looking at the kind of issues around being a health professional, specifically in the NHS at the moment. And so it covers a wide range of issues. And recently we've done some series around kind of having ADHD and being a health professional, surviving complaints, how difficult that is when you receive a fitness to practise complaint and the experiences and advice that could be really helpful in those circumstances. And coming up this autumn, I'm doing a series with the authors of the Coping With books that the Association of Clinical Psychology has published. So that is looking at psychologists, clinical psychologists who've written books about experiences that they've been through, like breast cancer, menopause, or other life stage issues like young parenting and children and the kind of personal professional boundaries and sort of relationships there.

How does that impact you being a psychologist and how does being a psychologist impact those experiences? So that's what's coming up.

Perfect. Thank you. And where can people learn more about creative restoration? Is your website the best place to go?

Yeah. So our website is creativerestoration.org. So you can find us there. We're both on Instagram. Mia's definitely better on the Instagram than I am. So yeah, you can find us there as well.

Great. What are your Instagram handles? And I'll make sure that they're on screen and in the show notes.

So mine is @DrPaulaRedmond.

And mine is Knitting Is Therapeutic.

Perfect. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing a little bit of your knitting world with us. It's so gratefully received.

Well, thank you for having us.

Thank you. Thanks so much for watching. Are you crafty? Are you knitting? Are you crocheting? Or are you maybe now, frankly, after this compelling display, considering having a go? I would love to know whether you are taking up any of the grandparent style hobbies or whether it might feel appealing to you to do so. As I said in the episode, I have broke my hand at the moment. And when I was in the hospital, I purposely took with me some books and things like that so that I wouldn't be beholden to needing a phone charger. And when I looked around the waiting room, I was the only person not on my phone and using what I now know of as an analogue hobby of reading. And I shared this little anecdote with Dr. Mia as we were preparing to record. And she said that when she'd been to the hospital, she had her knitting and her knitting bag with her because she was expecting a long stay.

And actually looking around at how fracturous and agitated some of the other people were, she is considering next time she goes, taking some spare knitting noodles and spare young and teaching people to knit. I would love to know what your thoughts are on this. If you were in a hospital or GP practise waiting room, somewhere where you're going to be anticipating having a bit of a wait and someone offered you a free little knitting lesson workshop, what would you say? If you're watching on YouTube, let me know in the comments. If you're listening on MP3, let me know on socials or on Spotify. You can drop a comment for specific episodes too. Have you yet discovered inner work? They are my solo deep dive behind the scenes, kind of in-depth look at some of the themes cropping up from the Psychology Actually episodes. They are now totally free, but if you do like getting early access to inner work and to psychology actually, you can still subscribe.

The inner work episodes are available from 8:00 PM UK time, wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. And before we go, if you've enjoyed this episode, I think you'll really like the one I did previously with Dr. Mia Hobbs because this was her second time on the podcast. There's details on the screen or in the show notes. But as you might well know by now, the Psychology Actually episodes are available from 4:00 PM on Saturdays on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts from 6:00 AM on Monday. Thank you so much for being part of my world. Do be kind to yourself and I'll see you very soon. Bye.