Hingham Public Schools is losing its superintendent and two of six principals after a difficult pandemic year plus. Experts say being a superintendent is more challenging than ever with high expectations, demanding accountability and a "loss of civility" in interactions with some parents. Hingham is among 45 or 15% of districts in the state needing new leadership and competition will be stiff. Join us for a conversation with Tom Scott, executive directors of the Massachusetts Association of School Superintendents; Kerry Ni, chair of the Hingham School Committee; and June Gustafson, head of the Hingham Education Association, representing teachers.

:00 Ally Donnelly

Hi and welcome to The Hingham Cast. This episode is brought to you by Brian Comer of Draper and Kramer Mortgage. I’m your host Ally Donnelly.

The Hingham Cast is hyper-local. Looking at the world through one small town, but the issues we explore are universal. Like our schools and who leads them.

Late last month Superintendent of Schools Paul Austin resigned after two years on the job. He is returning to Maine for a position in special education. I invited him to come on the podcast and talk about his experience here in Hingham, but he declined. In an email he said, “There is no doubt that the covid crisis made my wife and I reflect upon what is most important in our lives. Although the decision to leave was difficult, we are both looking forward to being back in Maine where we can best support our family and perhaps even more importantly, watch our grandchildren grow.”

He didn’t say whether recent posts on social media, criticizing him for the status of his license, contributed to his decision. The posts were intimating that Austin was not properly licensed. According to the state department of education that is not true. He had a temporary license that was set to expire at the end of this month. A state spokeswoman says extensions were granted to anyone in the licensure process because of Covid and Austin was taking the proper steps for full licensure but he was in perfectly good standing. Okay...moving on….

1:36 Ally Donnelly

Today, I’m joined by Kerri Ni, chair of Hingham’s School Committee, June Gustafson bringing in the voice of teachers, but I’ll start with Tom Scott. Executive Director of the Massachusetts Association of School Superintendents.

1:46 Ally Donnelly

Hey, Tom.

1:48 Tom Scott

Hey Ally, how are you doing?

1:49 Ally Donnelly

Good. So Hingham’s plan is to get an interim superintendent in place as soon as possible--a process already underway--and then hire someone longer term. At this moment, there are 45 districts looking for superintendents just for this upcoming school year. We don’t know the next year’s numbers yet. I know you said 45 hits at about average, maybe a bit below for vacancies. But, why such high turnover?

2:10 Tom Scott

I think that a combination of issues that are taking place, man, it's certainly a more complex job. For a lot of different reasons. accountability is one. You spend a great deal in education, and so, I think accountability goes along with that. Certainly high expectations increase, particularly at a place like Hingham, very high expectations. And social media has made it much more challenging, it's just easier for people to find one another. When there's discord, discontent over different issues, that tends to bubble up. And superintendents are in the midst of that all the time. So yeah, it's not a terribly attractive job for many.

2:48 Ally Donnelly

So, how would you describe the last year-plus for superintendents in terms of quality of life, quality of profession?

2:59 Tom Scott

Miserable. I mean, you just just, there's no better way of describing it. I mean, you know, every decision that they make, um, you know, has a sort of 50/50 proposition to it, right. 50% of the people feel that you're making the right decision. Another 50% think you're doing the wrong thing. And when we walked into this pandemic, um, you know, the commissioner and the governor pretty much said, you know, this is going to be based on local control.

3:25 Ally Donnelly

You mean, there wasn't a lot of direction from the state–

3:28 Tom Scott

Ya exactly

3:29 Ally Donnelly

Districts were on their own.

3:30 Tom Scott

Exactly

3:31 Ally Donnelly

And what was the fallout from that? I know, here in Hingham, we had some very contentious and I would say ugly committee meetings, school committee meetings, and there was a lot of disagreement over, you know, how long our kids should be in school, if they should have been back sooner, the hybrid model was very contentious.

3:47 Tom Scott

Yeah. You know parents began to, you know, look across neighbor lines and sort of see what's going on in other communities and say, Well, you know, something's happening in Hanover, why are we doing what Hanover is doing? Well, you know, a lot of factors weigh into the decisions that were made. We weren't prepared to go to a virtual education. You know, it was like you were starting from, from scratch. And then, every set of new information, created new expectations or new pivoting to how to think about doing it differently. You know, superintendents can't just implement things without negotiating them with their local teachers union. And so, you’re going to have everybody critiquing every single classroom, civility has gone out the window. I mean, people take strident positions around things and superintendents are exposed to an awful lot of incivility and so we struggle with that in terms of, of um providing opportunities for people's voice to be heard, because it's really important. But, but too often, the way in which it plays itself out is difficult for superintendents to, to, to manage.

5:03 Ally Donnelly

How big a challenge is it going to be to fill these roles after what we've seen this last year-plus?

5:10 Tom Scott

So there are two types of candidates, right, there are those candidates who are licensed to be superintendents. And, and then, and then there's also a provision of law that allows for a retiree to come back to be employed. So school committee, I think, is doing its due diligence, they're looking to find out who's out there and then go through a process, probably interview process, to try to figure out who would be the best person to to fill that role for the for the coming year.

5:37 Ally Donnelly

You know, I know we had talked earlier, and you were talking about, um, kind of the way it used to be the number of candidates, you would get the quality of candidates who you you would get, can you bring me through that, the process, you know, what a district like hanger may have attracted x years ago, and what the situation is now.

5:55 Tom Scott

The pool of candidates, even under the best of circumstances is, is pretty, pretty limited. So what's happening for many communities when there is a resignation of a superintendent late in the school year, and you know, this is this is pretty late, Paul made the decision, or at least made the announcement pretty late in the year. So they're the pool of candidates, as the year goes along, becomes thinner and thinner.

you know, the pool of candidates, right now probably could be somewhere in the average of average of 25.

6:29 Ally Donnelly

But what would you say it was years ago?

6:31 Tom Scott

Ugh, I'd say it's probably 75 to 100.

6:34 Ally Donnelly

Wow.

6:34 Tom Scott

Yeah, there's a big difference. And keep in mind that, you know, when I say 25, I'm not saying there's 25 who are sitting there as experienced, prepared, and the right fit for those communities.

6:49 Ally Donnelly

So not necessarily 25 qualified candidates.

6:52 Tom Scott

Well, they qualify in the sense that they may be licensed, but they may not have the same level of experience that Hingham may be looking for, they may not come with, you know, the sort of the background that Hingham may be looking for. So, if you can find somewhere in the vicinity of 5,6,7, promising candidates, you're doing well.

7:12 Ally Donnelly

So if this is playing out in dozens of other communities in Massachusetts how competitive is this process? Is this is going to be Bloodsport this year?

7:20 Tom Scott

You're going to be in somewhat some level of competition, because you're all pretty much going to go up through a process–getting community input, doing the search for

candidates, going through the interview process of the candidates, doing the vetting, you know, that takes a while it's a, it's a good six to eight-week process at best. So it's advisable to get out there and make sure that process is in good shape. earlier than later.

7:48 Ally Donnelly

Forgive me for not knowing this. But are there any other South Shore Superintendent positions open?

7:52 Tom Scott

Umm, there’s an interim going in at Braintree, there's an interim going in at Canton. You've got an interim in Duxbury. All of them, I think are very strong candidates for a permanent position.

8:05 Ally Donnelly

But also could be a strong candidate for a permanent position in Hingham.

8:09 Tom Scott

Well, I mean, if they're pursued, I guess. But, you know what I mean, there are a lot of other districts that are like, Hingham, in the sense of, you know, higher performing kind of school districts that may attract people. Now, what's going to happen is sometime beginning in September, October, those superintendents who are electing to retire or are going to look elsewhere for positions. That's, that's when the list begins to generate.

8:38 Ally Donnelly

I see, I see. So our interim will be coming in for this coming school year. But really our need is for the next school year. And we don't know what that number is. That's right. And you don't know what that competition is going to actually be. Do you have any expectation on what that number is?

8:53 Tom Scott

It's hard to say I mean, some people sort of asked the question, you know, what's the burnout factor after this year? You know, I mean, I just, I just, I just can't begin to describe what physically, emotionally has been it has been taken out of these people during the course of this year. It's really hard to know, what the ripple effect is going to be and what we've gone through.

9:18 [Break]

Let’s take a quick break here to thank our sponsor….

10:07 Tom Scott

Well, it plays into it in a lot of similar ways. For the principalship, I certainly think that anyone is advised to begin that process as soon as reasonably possible. You're just going to get a better pool of candidates.

10:23 Ally Donnelly

Yeah. Are principals, do principals often go into Superintendent roles, or make their way up the ladder. I mean, are those--because of what we've seen, are the superintendent positions even attractive to maybe the kind of quote-unquote, farm team system that might have climbed up the ladder?

10:43 Tom Scott

Yeah, the farm team system for superintendents has changed as well. So it used to be that you'd, you know, have your teacher you move on to an assistant principal principal ship, then you move into the central office in some form of Assistant Superintendent director, Director of Curriculum and then, you know, you move into the superintendency. We are seeing larger numbers of strong candidates coming out of the principalship into the superintendency. You know, they understand the culture of the community, they may be recognized and, and, supported by the community and, and so that increases their, you know, level of opportunity of success.

11:23 Ally Donnelly

But it also increases Hingham’s need, right? Because if we're down two principals, at the get-go, that hits the farm team, so to speak, and whom else we have to hire.

11:35 Tom Scott

Yeah, it does. If we don't take great teacher leaders, and begin to identify them and give them the kinds of responsibilities that have them develop into really good strong principals, then we pay the penalty of not being able to have the people we want.

11:54 Ally Donnelly

Okay, so down two principals, down a superintendent, down teachers, down staff, best advice?

12:01 Tom Scott

You're a good, strong, well-recognized district, you will attract good strong candidates, I am confident of that. From everything I've heard, school committee is a strong, cohesive group - that makes a world of difference. And you have resources, you can provide the quality education that people look for. So you have a core of finding good strong people. And you've been able to do that in the past, you'll be continuing to do that. It's just did you want to get the best of the best. And the best way to do that is to get out in front of the process.

12:35 Ally Donnelly

Terrific. Tom Scott, thank you very much.

12:38 Tom Scott

You're welcome.

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12:39 [Break]

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13:07 Ally Donnelly

Let me bring more voices into the conversation. I'm joined by June Gustafson, a social studies teacher at Hingham Middle School, and head of the Hingham education association representing teachers and Kerry Ni Chair of the Hingham school committee. Welcome to you both.

13:20 Kerry Ni

Thank you.

13:21 June Gustafson

Thank you so much.

13:22 Ally Donnelly

June, I want to start with you. From a teacher's perspective, how does the resignation of Dr. Austin hit you?

13:30 June Gustafson

Um, I think it hits myself and all the teachers really hard, after the most challenging of school years, for everyone. It was, we were hoping to continue, um, the growth that we had seen under Dr. Austin. Um, and, and it's incredibly, we’re incredibly saddened by his departure.

13:51 Ally Donnelly

What are your biggest concerns for the year, plus ahead?

13:55 June Gustafson

I think that we need to look at why administrators are leaving and look at what kind of practices should be changed in terms of supporting our administrators, and in turn, having them support teachers, when teachers feel supported, valued, and happy, our students have that. And we also would like to see some well-planned goals for the interim superintendent, even if it's just for one year. I know that we were going to move forward with this five-year strategic plan starting in August. And I guess there's some questions about that

14:34 Ally Donnelly

So get a bit more granular for me. So when you say, want to look at perhaps policies or positions that need to be changed, or supports brought in. What do you mean?

14:44 June Gustafson

I just, I mean, I've worked in Hingham, I'm going into my 18th year, I've never seen openings like this at the building level. And, you know, I think Dr. Austin's departure is taking us all by surprise. But, I think having the principal vacancies open as well is concerning. You know, the leadership in a school can really determine the tone and the atmosphere, the learning atmosphere of a building, and I'm concerned about that.

15:17 Ally Donnelly

And how many teachers at this moment are leaving or have left Hingham schools?

15:22 June Gustafson

I believe it's a total of nine, but that was from two weeks ago.

15:27 Ally Donnelly

Okay. And looking ahead to the next academic year. Do you have any handle on that yet?

15:33 June Gustafson

I know of seven educators who are resigning–So these would-be teachers counselors, not para educators or support staff. So I would venture to say that maybe a dozen teachers, which is still, within typical numbers for us.

15:53 Ally Donnelly

Okay. Kerry Ni, let me bring you in. We have at this moment, as June said, three leadership positions that need filling, that feels like a lot for one community.

16:02 Kerry Ni

Yeah, I agree. I know, it feels disconcerting to have three administrative openings. And it probably feels sudden, educators are retiring or resigning across Massachusetts and the country. It's been a very challenging year to be in any part of education. And, like most of us as we emerged from the pandemic, people are reassessing their lives and their careers and their values and making different choices. While we’re very sad to lose these three, they're really very talented administrators, that, all three are losses for the community, but, I also wanted to emphasize that it's important to know that we have a lot of talent in Hingham, level, many veteran teachers and staff that have institutional knowledge. So, I mean, while the leadership changes are, are important, we don't expect that they'll have too much of an impact on students,

16:49 Ally Donnelly

June, would you agree with that statement that it won't trickle down to students?

16:53 June Gustafson

I do agree. But I feel that it depends on who comes into those roles. Because like I said, the leadership does trickle down to teachers. And, if they again, feel supported and valued, that will translate into the student’s experience.

17:11 Ally Donnelly

Okay.

17:12 Kerry Ni

I absolutely agree with that.

17:13 Ally Donnelly

Yeah. So, Kerry, you know, we can't, given all the things you said, and even though these numbers are not necessarily off the charts, or an anomaly. After, you know, what we've been through, we can't hide from the fact that this was a tough year-plus, in Hingham. At times, very contentious personal attacks, leadership, very much bore the brunt of parents’ frustrations. Do you think that played into where we find ourselves now?

17:44 Kerry Ni

Absolutely. I do think so. I mean, it was, it was, I've been thinking a lot about what we need from the interim superintendent, and then our next Superintendent going for the permanent Superintendent going forward. And we really need to focus on somebody who can rebuild relationships, in addition to the other things, other needs of the district. But I think the relationships are really key, because the pandemic. It was a trauma, it was a collective trauma. And the pandemic really strained all of the relationships, and kind of highlighted our pre-existing areas for improvement.

18:13 Ally Donnelly

Yeah.

18:15 Kerry Ni

It really brought out the best and worst of our community. So I think we have a unique opportunity for self-reflection on how we dealt with the challenging situation. And we need to be honest with ourselves about what we did well, and how we can improve, especially from a communication standpoint.

18:29 Ally Donnelly

Yeah. You talk about damaged relationships and self-reflection. As you're seeing it through, you know, you obviously had a front-row seat with the school committee, but you're a parent. What was the damage done to relationships and why?

18:42 Kerry Ni

Well, I think everyone understandably had a lot of fear and anxiety. We've talked about, like, a parent's right to advocate for their child, and I will defend that all day long. Obviously, it's just part of our job as parents. And I also really respect the union's right to advocate for the best interests of teachers and staff because that's entirely their role. The position we find ourselves in is weighed the balance all of those interests as well as those in the community. So as an example, we received some really heartbreaking emails from parents of students who were really suffering under remote learning and they were advocating for reopening the schools immediately. We also receive communications from parents who were very concerned about sending their kids back to the building because either there's children or they had family members who are medically compromised. And then we found that teachers and staff are still similarly divided, many really wanted to go back in person because it's extremely difficult to teach hybrid or remote. But then they also had seen very valid safety concerns. And so from our position, we had to balance all of those, we had to follow the science, which was not clear, and it was constantly evolving, and to make the best possible decisions for everybody. And we've been thinking about that about, you know, we expect school to be normal in the fall, and hopefully never have to face those kind of decisions again, but there always be, will be things going forward. And to June's point, too, we also have to understand that in order to support our students, we do have to support our teachers and staff.

20:05 Ally Donnelly

Yeah.

2:06 Kerry Ni

So.

2:06 [Break]

A quick break here to thank our media partner the Hingham Anchor. Put faces to these voices and read Dr. Austin’s resignation letter at Hingham Anchor dot-com. I also want to take a moment to say. As this search process unfolds, we’ll be bringing more parent’s voices into the conversation. The last year-plus was rough and laid bare some real problems. So where do you think we are now? What do you think we need? How can our school communities be better? If you want to be involved in a panel, reach out, I want to hear from you. Okay, let’s get back to *this* conversation and how Hingham is going to compete for the best candidates.

20:47 Ally Donnelly

We are not alone in needing leadership positions, Braintree, Canton and Duxbury. They all have interim superintendents. And, you know, maybe those interims will step in to fill those posts permanently. But we could also be competing with them and other dozens of other communities across the state and, you know, hundreds across the country. Kerry, what's the strategy from the school committee's point of view?

21:10 Kerry Ni

So we are going to be moving forward with an interim just like those communities. So as far as the principals go, the school, the superintendent hires the principal.

21:18 Ally Donnelly

Yeah, yeah.

21:19 Kerry Ni

So our central office team has been working on the interim, Principal searches. And it'll move quickly, because we need to get principal in place before the start of the year. Our goal is to get a new principal to start on August 2. And then for the superintendent we already have several promising applicants. The goal is to get somebody in place to just make sure that we're stable and gives, gives us an opportunity to, appoint a permanent superintendent. As you said, you spoke with Tom Scott and as you know, there's a very limited pool of can't have permanent Superintendent candidates out there. Want to get the right person in there. It's, It's crucial and somebody who hopefully can stay for longer than two years and won't be faced with a global pandemic.

21:58 Ally Donnelly

Yeah. What what concerns do you have in terms of you know, Tom lays out, you know, a decade ago, you might have had 100 strong candidates for a well paying, well- positioned, well-resourced community, like Hingham, now you might have 25, the bulk of whom will not be as qualified as you, you'd like. I mean, this could be a really competitive field. How do you feel about that?

22:24 Kerry Ni

Well, it's certainly a challenge. Hingham is an attractive place to work, we had good candidates last time, I expect it'll be the same. Right now. I think a lot of people are just kind of shell-shocked and burned out after the last year, but that’s one of the reasons we wanted to have an interim in place. And it's instead of trying to do a full search, in addition to the timing of it, is that we think that things will settle down and people will again reassess and kind of build confidence and recover from this, and there will be a deeper pool of candidates.

22:54 Ally Donnelly

And you were involved in the search for Dr. Austin, how arduous a process is that, and what are you looking for when you're looking at resumes?

23:02 Kerry Ni

So it's definitely a long process. This one should not be probably as protracted as that one. In that case, we were replacing a superintendent who had been here for 18 years. In this case, we are looking for somebody who has been here for two years. And we have a lot of good information and already from the other search process. I mean, we also have some good information from having lived through this year about what we need, as a community. But it will be–definitely be it'll all be public, we will have opportunities for, for teachers, or staff or community members for parents to participate in it, either on the screening committee or during the process. And I think we will follow the same process that we did last time hiring a consultant and going through the same steps, it probably just won't be quite as, as intensive as it was last time, because we are already done a lot of the work.

23:53 Ally Donnelly

You say, you know, learn from the pandemic about what we need as a community. What do you mean? Well, or what did you learn?

24:01 Kerry Ni

Well, I think a lot of it is the relationships, I think we kind of took some of the relationships that you know, between parents, staff, teachers, the school committee, took some of those for granted. And so I think taking a hard look at those, well, it was somebody who is good at building those, will be good. We already know, equity is a big issue.

24:20 Ally Donnelly

Map that out a little bit for me.

24:22 Kerry Ni

Well, we were a town that. We're a very high-performing district. And we are very fortunate because we have a lot of parents who can devote resources either through by donating to organizations like the PTOs or Hingham Education Foundation, or they supplement then get to tutors or extra enrichment for our children. And we saw that at the beginning of the pandemic, we had parents who came together and formed pods and were able to hire teachers and put that together or had their own private tutor at home. Their are families and just don't have any of that and are very reliant on the schools. And so we have to take a look at that and make sure that we're meeting the needs of all of our students.

24:57 Ally Donnelly

So if you were sitting down today. What is it that's going to make, in your eyes, someone stand out for what you think we need in the years ahead?

25:10 Kerry Ni

We’ll come, we’ll come up with an ideal candidate profile. That's part of the process. But, I think definitely valuing equity would be a big thing. Somebody who has experiences with budgets. That's something we're already doing with the interims is kind of researching their backgrounds and talking to people who have worked with them. And going through some non-traditional routes as well talking to parents in their communities and talking to, the teachers will reach out to staff - doing that kind of research is more important.

25:36 Ally Donnelly

So June for you, you know, Carrie talks about the ideal candidate, what is the ideal candidate quote unquote, look like, for you, from a teacher's perspective.

25:46 June Gustafson

Classroom experience is essential, and, as well as having the academic work in leadership. And I agree with Kerry on the equity piece and understanding what that means for not just students but all employees. And, also, having a good understanding of the budgeting process.

How do you look at tackling this coming year, particularly, if it's an interim superintendent that may or may not, you know, be a candidate to stay? Let's say you take someone out of retirement or, you know, a disconnected, former superintendent from another district to kind of man the ship, or woman the ship for the next year. Does that feel like a pause for you on any growth points? Or how do you feel about that?

26:34 June Gustafson

So last night, I reached out to several teachers and somebody commented to me that it shouldn't be a limbo year, that we shouldn't continue to move forward. However, I do think after last year, we need to have an opportunity to regroup and reset. I know it's interesting looking at just the middle school where I work. Our students who are new to the school last year, who will be seventh-graders this year, haven't had the opportunity to have lunch in a normal way. And that right there, that one piece of that one grade is a big thing. I mean, I'm sure they will get used to it, they adapt very quickly. But we're going to have all kinds of little hiccups like that throughout the school year. And I think that's a really important thing. None of the middle schoolers used lockers last year. That can take up an entire morning, coaching kids through that, and just those kinds of things, and also just letting everyone catch their breath, I think is important.

27:44 Ally Donnelly

Yeah.

27:44 June Gustafson

While still moving forward.

27:45 Ally Donnelly

Interesting. So when you're looking at the larger picture of what you want out of a superintendent candidate, what's on that list?

27:55 June Gustafson

For teachers, I think they want someone who understands the, again, the details of what happens in school buildings and in classrooms. Someone who has a vision to move us forward is really important. And someone who understands the equity piece, and how important that is for our students. Inclusivity is really important to me as an educator, and also as a parent of two children with special needs, having someone who understands the diverse needs of our students is credibly important.

Where do you think we as a district are struggling? I know you've both mentioned equity, where else are we struggling as a district and, you know, could use this as an opportunity to do better in your opinion?

28:47 June Gustafson

I think improving special education programs is important, I think supporting our special education students, but also our educators. For example, providing more equity, equity among the caseloads of special educators is an important piece of that.

29:10 Kerry Ni

Yeah, I would agree with everything June said, but also, I think we need to take a look and we've, we've already talked about this, and that was part of our budget this year is looking at a multi-tiered system of supports for a general education students as well. There are a lot of students who kind of fall in between special education and just completely thriving in general education.

29:31 Ally Donnelly

Yeah.

29:31 Kerry Ni

We could do more to support those students as well. And that's something we don't have to hit pause on. We've been working on that, it's the pet project for our assistant superintendent and we've been doing a lot of hiring for that.

29:43 Ally Donnelly

What does that look like, the pet project? How does that play out for kids?

29:46 June Gustafson

So at the middle school, we have the addition of a school counselor, as well as, as an adjustment counselor. Those were two new roles that were added in the past two years, and that has made a really, really big difference. Especially after this year, um, you know, we've all gone through this collective trauma, and some kids just need someone that they can talk to about it, makes a big difference.

30:12 Ally Donnelly

Yeah

30:13 Kerry Ni

We've also added reading specialists and math tutors at the elementary level, which should also help support some of the general education teachers too because it will throw the load off them. And they'll be able to differentiate instruction for younger students, too.

30:27 June Gustafson

I agree with Kerry on that, that having that additional support. It's interesting because sixth grade is an unleveled grade. I have had students in my classroom who read, and I'm not kidding, at the first-grade level, to kids, and this is all in the same classroom, to get to read at the what's called the post-high school or college level, and to have to differentiate between all and then the group in the middle is, that's a challenge. And so having the additional support for reading, I know in math, that is a big issue as well. Even just someone to support with going over to the directions is a huge help.

31:12 Ally Donnelly

Okay. Is there anything I didn't ask you guys that you think it's important to say?

31:16 Kerry Ni

I guess the one thing I want to say is that we're going to be okay, as a district, we really do have talented people in as educators, as staff members. We have some administrators that are (the ones that are staying) are, we have some talented people in district. So while we're going through some growing pains right now, I expect the Hingham public schools to continue to grow and improve.

31:37 Ally Donnelly

Excellent. Excellent. This has been a great conversation. Thank you very much, Jean Gustafson and Kerry Ni.

31:43 June Gustafson

Thank you.

31:44 Kerry Ni

Thank you, Ally.

31:49 [Wrap Up]

I want to thank my podcasting partner, the kind and fabulous producer-editor Kristin Keefe. Our interns, are Claudia Chiappa from Boston University and we’re welcoming Cameron Baker to our team. Our website was designed by Donna Mavromates and her team at Mavro Creative. I’m Ally Donnelly. Thanks for listening. Talk to you soon!