The focal point of this podcast episode is the historical significance of the Army-Navy football rivalry, particularly highlighting the events surrounding the 1905 game. We delve into the negotiations that transpired between the athletic directors of Army and Navy, Bull Halsey and Palmer E. Pierce, and the University of Pennsylvania, which hosted the game. The episode elucidates how ticket distribution conflicts led to the relocation of the game to Princeton and the subsequent logistical challenges that arose. Furthermore, we explore the profound impact both Halsey and Pierce had on the evolution of college football, particularly in relation to the establishment of the NCAA. Through this narrative, we bring to light the often-overlooked figures who played pivotal roles in shaping football history.

Today's conversation stems from one of Tim's Tidbits titled: Bull Halsey, Palmer E. Pierce, and the 1905 Army-Navy Game - https://www.footballarchaeology.com/p/bull-halsey-palmer-e-pierce-and-the

⏰ Timecodes ⏰

00:00 Welcome to the Pig Pen

01:54 The Army-Navy Rivalry: Origins and Early Years

07:32 The Evolution of Stadium Design

11:05 The Evolution of NCAA and Football Governance

13:23 Exploring Football Archaeology

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The discourse presented delves into the historical tapestry of American football, specifically illuminating the significant rivalry between the Army and Navy football teams. The narrative commences with a reflection on the origins of this storied competition, tracing its inception back to 1890 when the two academies first clashed on the gridiron. The episode intricately explores the evolution of the Army-Navy game, emphasizing its transition from West Point and Annapolis to its eventual establishment in Philadelphia's Franklin Field, a venue that became synonymous with this prestigious match-up. As the rivalry burgeoned, the implications of ticket distribution emerged as a pivotal theme, underscoring the political and social dynamics that surrounded the event. Notably, the episode highlights the contentious negotiations that transpired between the organizers and the University of Pennsylvania, which had hosted the game but faced challenges in accommodating the increasing demand for tickets from influential stakeholders. The narrative crescendos as it recounts the 1905 game relocating to Princeton, an event that, while significant, ultimately faced its own logistical hurdles, thus underscoring the complexities involved in staging such a monumental sporting event. Furthermore, the conversation transitions into the lives of two central figures in this historical narrative: Bull Halsey and Palmer E. Pierce. Halsey, who would later ascend to prominence as a fleet admiral during World War II, serves as a representative of the Navy's athletic department during this pivotal juncture. In parallel, Pierce's role as the Army's athletic director is explored, revealing his influence in the early governance of college football, particularly through his involvement with the nascent NCAA. The episode posits that while these figures may not be household names today, their contributions to the sport and the organizational frameworks that govern it were foundational to the development of American football as we know it. Thus, the episode not only chronicles a significant rivalry but also encapsulates the intertwined destinies of key individuals whose legacies continue to resonate within the fabric of football history.

Hello, my football friends. This is Darin Hayes of pigskindispatch.com welcome once again to the Pig Pen, your portal deposit of football history. And it is another week where we get to take in one of Tim Brown of FootballArchaeology.com stories, his recent tidbits.

Tim, welcome back to the Pig Pen.

Hey there. Look forward to chatting, though. I think this episode is going to be full of a bunch of bull.

Well, many people do say that when you and I talk, but especially when we're talking on the same podcast episode.

Yeah. So I'll have to go back to my youthful days.

I had a history professor one time who I think, you know, he always had one of the cool techniques that he used in, in talking or, you know, given lectures was he'd sprinkle in somebody who later became famous, who was at certain events or was involved in certain activities when they were just a schlub. Right.

And you know, but you kind of realize, okay, this, this is what influenced, you know, this had some influence on that person's policies, you know, later on down the road.

So this is kind of one of those where it's, it's a story about, you know, kind of a neat or an interesting event in football history and specifically Army Navy. But history and it involves two people who later became very, you know, prominent individuals.

They went back and forth, West Point, Annapolis, West Point, Annapolis.

But, you know, it became a popular enough event and enough people wanted to see the Army Navy game that they switched the location to Philadelphia and Penn's Franklin Field, which at the time was one of the biggest stadiums in the country, you know, and they played baseball there, too. But it was designed as a track and football facility. So but, you know, and over time it just got, it kind of grew and Grew, right?

So everybody who was anybody wanted to be at the game.

And so, you know, literally Congress people would threaten not to fund certain activities for the academies if they didn't get tickets that they wanted. And then, you know, their alums wanted tickets and you know, generals and admirals, etc. And so part of the.

And so, you know, Penn gave some to their students, to their donors and you know, whatever, you know, influential people in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia. And so army and Navy didn't have as many tickets to give out as they wanted to, as they wanted.

And so they basically told Penn, hey, either you need to, you need to give us more of the tickets in, in order for us to continue coming here.

And Penn was like, sorry, you know, and the other thing, even Pennsylvania Pen didn't make any money on this thing because they, whatever they made off ticket off of ticket sales, they donated to an orphans fund for military, you know, children of, you know, service people that, that have been, you know, killed and do, you know, on duty. So anyways, so the, there were two people involved in negotiating this deal. One was Bull Halsey, who was effectively the, the Navy athletic director.

He had a different title but. And then a guy named Palmer E. Pierce, who was Army's ad, at least for football.

At the time they had a decent sized stadium.

Princeton Stadium couldn't or station couldn't really handle that level of traffic. So anyways, they were just, they didn't have enough restaurants, hotel rooms, all that kind of stuff.

So just kind of the infrastructure at Princeton just didn't work. So there were a lot of people who were mad about the game being there.

So Halsey and Pierce kind of have to kind of had their tail between their legs and they, they eventually they negotiate a new deal with Penn for the following year in which Penn would add temporary seats behind one of the end zones. Well, it was an end zone yet, but anyways behind the goal line. And then they basically said, okay, you get YouTube, get all the seats there, right?

So, so basically army and Navy got more tickets than they had originally been asking for, which was great for them. And Penn got to keep all the same seats that they had had in the past. So the whole deal, you know, and then they.

They basically stayed at Franklin Field for a number of years. Sometimes they play in New York sometimes. And they eventually moved to like Municipal Stadium and Veteran Stadium, stuff like that.

But, you know, Franklin Field has been one of their primary. Or yeah, Philadelphia, I should say has been one of their primary locations. So.

So one of the things that I think just is interesting about it is just, you know, when you think about the. When we think about building a stadium today, you basically build a stadium to fill the thing every weekend, right?

At least every week there's a game. But back then, that's not the way it worked.

So a lot of times these stadiums were built for the maximum capacity needed as opposed to the consistent capacity, right? Because they wanted their alums, influential alums and donors to be able to get a seat to the big game. Because.

And they only wanted it for one game a year, really. So, you know, Yale, you know, the Yale bowl and Harvard are kind of classic examples of that. So anyways, you know, that was just kind of. It's a.

It was a different mindset for how stadiums were built and not built. And yet army and Navy never built sizable stadiums. You know, they stayed with stadiums that work for their normal crowds.

And when they play their one big game a year, they go somewhere else, you know, Veterans State, you know, whatever, wherever. The. I don't even know the name of the stadium in Philadelphia anymore, but I.

Think It's Lincoln Financial Field.

Yeah. So I mean, it was just kind of a different time and a different logic in terms of the stadiums themselves.

But then the other thing about the story is just, you know, these two guys. So, you know, Bull Halsey ends up being, being like the number two guy in the U.S. navy in the Pacific during World War II.

You know, he's, he ends up being a fleet admiral, you know, I think so. I mean he was like, he was a big deal, but he was like the AD back then.

During all that period is when all the, you know, the football crisis is going on.

And as West Point's representative, he, he becomes West Point's representative to the, you know, Intercollegiate association of United, you know, whatever the, whatever. It was kind of the predecessor to the, to the ncaa. And army held a certain position, you know, their view of.

So like NYU is the one who started this effort to create a new set of rulemaking body. And, but they were kind of radical. They were considered, you're thinking about dropping football.

You know, they, and army was like, no, we're going to keep playing. So but so we got to find a way to work with the existing rule makers. And so, and Army's view predominated in the early meetings.

It was like a part time sort of role, volunteer role. But nevertheless, you know, he was a key figure in the early days of the NCAA and probably more, probably more.

Football centric back then too.

Yeah, it was very much so. I think, you know, I don't know that his role was football centric just because, you know, he wasn't a football expert.

He was pretty much into let the rule, let the, let the people who know football do the rulemaking.

He was more like the organizer, the, you know, get everybody working together kind of guy and make sure, you know, he was like the Strategy guy go heading in this direction now.

I'm going to let all the other people do their thing and create the rules, but, you know, still a fundamental figure and, you know, in the, in the future direction of American football.

Yeah. I mean, it's something probably that all of us take for granted.

The.

These people that are behind the scenes and organizing these big games and scheduling and the athletic directors and their staffs and everything.

But we wouldn't have any of these games going on or be marketed like they are today or even, you know, 100 some years ago if it wasn't for these individuals. And I'm glad that you, you shed some light on who they are and give them some credit and some accolades that they well deserve.

Yeah, well, even like, you know, I mean, I, I've been aware of Bill Halsey for, you know, since I was probably 12 or something like that. Right. But Palmer Pierce is a relatively, you know, I didn't know about him until fairly recently, you know, and, and then.

But, you know, you dig into this stuff and eventually it's like, well, you know, you, I mean, you just come across things and doing research and it's like, wow, this guy, he's a much bigger deal. And, you know, I had any idea about.

Yeah. And I think that's a familiar theme that you have with your tidbits.

That's what, that's the one great thing what football archaeology does is it sheds some light on some folks that maybe were forgotten over time. And you do this quite a bit in your tidbits.

Maybe you could share with us and listeners, you know, how can we partake and learn some of these great things that you do in your tidbits?

Yeah, just go to footballarchaeology.com it's a substack site. You can subscribe, in which case you'll get an email.

Every time I publish a new story, which is typically a couple times a week, and then one day a week, the podcast gets published as well on your site, and then I promote it on mine. So, yeah, that's the way to do it.

So if you're looking for something on football history, and especially maybe Pre World War II, you know, I may well have covered something on the topic before. So, you know, go search. Use it. Use search function and you'll probably find some, you know, some fun stuff.

Yeah, very powerful little magnifying glass there you have sort of part way down your page. It's, it's great to do that. I use it quite often doing my research.

So, Tim, we really appreciate you sharing this with us today, just like you do each week. And we'd love to talk to you again next week.

See you in seven days.

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