Hosted by Vicky Mills (producer, researcher and creative lead) with guest Richard Uttley (composer)

You can watch the film The Man Who Painted His House: a short film by Dr Vicky Mills and Lily Ford on YouTube.

Speaker: Hello, everybody, and welcome to

Speaker: part two of this special podcast

Speaker: mini series exploring a new

Speaker: short film by Vicky Mills and

Speaker: Lily Ford called The Man Who

Speaker: Painted His House, which has

Speaker: been funded by the Birkbeck

Speaker: Research Innovation Fund and the

Speaker: Boston Fund for nineteenth

Speaker: Century Studies.

Speaker: I'm Vicky Mills, and the film is

Speaker: part of a research project that

Speaker: I'm working on, funded by the

Speaker: British Academy that examines

Speaker: the figure of the Victorian art

Speaker: workmen, those men who often

Speaker: work for leading designers and

Speaker: architects such as William

Speaker: Morris and George Frederick

Speaker: Bodley, but whose own work is

Speaker: frequently overlooked.

Speaker: The film focuses on the life and work of a Victorian art workman

Speaker: named David Parr, and if you haven't listened to part one, I

Speaker: suggest you do that first, as it will give you a sense of what

Speaker: the film is about and what we were trying to achieve.

Speaker: But today it's all about the music, and I'm very pleased to

Speaker: be joined by composer and pianist Richard Utley, who

Speaker: composed the original soundtrack for the film.

Speaker: Welcome, Rick.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Thank you Vicky.

Speaker: Delighted to be here.

Speaker: So in this podcast, Rick, we're going to talk about your

Speaker: creative process and your approach to composing the music

Speaker: for the film and what the music does, how it complements and

Speaker: interacts with the film's visuals and the effects of that.

Speaker: And we'll also talk a little bit about our collaboration.

Speaker: And to me, it feels really important that we devote time to

Speaker: this topic as the music has added so much to the film and

Speaker: indeed, added is the wrong word.

Speaker: It's not an add on.

Speaker: It's a key aspect of the film.

Speaker: Lili and I knew we wanted music

Speaker: in the film and that ideally we

Speaker: wanted to work with a composer

Speaker: rather than using something sort

Speaker: of off the peg that had already

Speaker: been created.

Speaker: And I was very lucky to be given your details.

Speaker: By Emma Bloxham, head of live music at radio three.

Speaker: And that's how things started off.

Speaker: So can I start then, by asking you what your first thoughts

Speaker: were when we approached you about the project?

Speaker: Well, I suppose I could start by saying I was both flattered and

Speaker: extremely excited that Emma had given you my details.

Speaker: Um, writing for film isn't something that I've done before,

Speaker: actually, but it's something I've been very interested in for

Speaker: a long time because I've loved films and actually even wrote a

Speaker: dissertation on Bernard Herrmann's, uh, compositions for

Speaker: Alfred Hitchcock films.

Speaker: So it's something I'd thought a lot about.

Speaker: And I felt, oh, I feel I could do this.

Speaker: Um, but yeah, it was a therefore particularly exciting because it

Speaker: was going to be a new challenge.

Speaker: And then when I started finding out about the, the Subject.

Speaker: I started to see, oh, this is

Speaker: going to be actually right up my

Speaker: street.

Speaker: Means so many aspects of it.

Speaker: Um, good.

Speaker: I mean, I could start with just

Speaker: the concept of it, this, this

Speaker: workman kind of putting his all

Speaker: into something and, um, uh,

Speaker: trying to produce the most, uh,

Speaker: kind of beautiful and, uh, well

Speaker: crafted thing that, that he

Speaker: could, that really chimed with

Speaker: what being a musician is all

Speaker: about.

Speaker: You often working very hard, primarily actually because of

Speaker: your own artistic ideals, which I felt was exactly what was

Speaker: happening with David Parr.

Speaker: So that was a nice starting point.

Speaker: But also things like the

Speaker: patterns, just the the luck of

Speaker: the result.

Speaker: I found that very inspiring.

Speaker: MM. Because we, I think we

Speaker: contacted you at a point where

Speaker: when we had, um, some of the

Speaker: initial visuals put together and

Speaker: you sort of saw a rough cut of

Speaker: the film, but you also went to

Speaker: the house yourself and visited

Speaker: the house.

Speaker: And you've already you've

Speaker: already said a little bit about

Speaker: this, but was there anything

Speaker: particular that you took from

Speaker: that visit that you found

Speaker: inspirational?

Speaker: Well, I felt it was important

Speaker: to, to go to the house itself

Speaker: and really see it and experience

Speaker: it firsthand.

Speaker: One of the things that I guess

Speaker: I've alluded to it already, but

Speaker: David Parr's ideals, it felt

Speaker: like the that was so high, you

Speaker: know, this, this, this bar that

Speaker: he sets of the commitment to

Speaker: something and, um, the kind of

Speaker: honorable pursuit of something

Speaker: beautiful or as as great as it

Speaker: can be.

Speaker: So I felt, I've got to do this justice, you know, I have to be

Speaker: there and experience what it's actually like in the house, not

Speaker: just see it in the film.

Speaker: And indeed it was really helpful thing to have done.

Speaker: One of the first things I might mention is the way I was shown

Speaker: round the house.

Speaker: I mean, these tours, they're very sort of intimate.

Speaker: And again, you feel this level of quality.

Speaker: You know, the ratio of guides to visitors.

Speaker: When I was there, I think I think there were six, seven or

Speaker: eight, eight of us on the tour, and there was a tour guide plus

Speaker: another tour guide.

Speaker: So, so incredibly high ratio and, um, high value tour indeed.

Speaker: Um, then I just was aware of the, the, the passion coming

Speaker: from the guide and what it meant to people in Cambridge, this

Speaker: house and how exciting the whole concept is for creative people

Speaker: and people involved in craft this kind of thing.

Speaker: Particularly as I regard

Speaker: musicians as being seeing

Speaker: details as well was a really

Speaker: nice reason to be in the house,

Speaker: because some of that, I feel it

Speaker: was really about looking with

Speaker: your own eye, very close to the

Speaker: wall, even sometimes we see this

Speaker: in the film as well, but I was

Speaker: able to kind of experience it

Speaker: for myself by, by looking at it

Speaker: also sort of perspective and the

Speaker: scale of things because it's

Speaker: obviously it's a house, it's a

Speaker: domestic environment, very small

Speaker: scale really, but in this grand

Speaker: way that is it can be sort of,

Speaker: uh, almost feel like a

Speaker: contradiction.

Speaker: And when you see it on the screen, I think that Lily has

Speaker: done a great job of capturing how that is.

Speaker: But to be in the room with with that level of patterning is an

Speaker: experience in itself, really.

Speaker: So that was also something that I tried to translate into the,

Speaker: the music, this, uh, simultaneous scaling, if you see

Speaker: what it means.

Speaker: So the grandness and the

Speaker: vastness implied by, by the

Speaker: kinds of pattern, but also the

Speaker: intimate feeling of the rooms

Speaker: themselves.

Speaker: Yeah, that's really interesting.

Speaker: And the two instruments that you composed for and with are the

Speaker: piano and viola.

Speaker: Um, Lily and I, and we talked to you about this.

Speaker: We were keen to use the piano because obviously there's a

Speaker: piano in the house.

Speaker: So we know that that, and it does actually date from the

Speaker: early twentieth century during pars occupancy of the house.

Speaker: So we know that he would have engaged with that in some way.

Speaker: So we had a strong sense that we wanted to use the piano.

Speaker: But can you tell us a little bit

Speaker: more about your choice of the

Speaker: viola?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, just if I can start with the piano, actually, I, I quite

Speaker: wanted to use the piano in the house if it had been possible.

Speaker: So that was another thing when I went to the house, actually

Speaker: tried the piano unfortunately wasn't going to quite work for,

Speaker: for recording and the kind of, uh, even how to record that

Speaker: instrument and getting it into the right condition.

Speaker: But it was nice to have played

Speaker: it and to have a feel, to be

Speaker: honest, it was a kind of

Speaker: instrument that I've encountered

Speaker: and, you know, seen as old

Speaker: upright pianos and heard them

Speaker: before.

Speaker: So I had a feel and it was it was quite like as I'd expected.

Speaker: But yeah, I thought, yeah,

Speaker: definitely we'll have piano

Speaker: because that's springing from

Speaker: the house and from, from these,

Speaker: uh, from the environment that

Speaker: we're thinking about in the film

Speaker: already.

Speaker: Then the viola, I felt I didn't

Speaker: want it to feel like a kind of

Speaker: silent film, improvised piano

Speaker: thing, you know, from a sort of

Speaker: Charlie Chaplin or something

Speaker: like that.

Speaker: So I was keen that there'd be some other sound, but I also

Speaker: thought that a domestic feeling was going to be the right thing,

Speaker: because picking up on the idea of, of, of the walls being

Speaker: brought, that that kind of patterning being brought into a

Speaker: home in a way it might not otherwise have been were it not

Speaker: for Parr's ideas.

Speaker: Um, I thought, yeah, I should make it something that could

Speaker: have been played in that.

Speaker: So, so perhaps just one other instrument.

Speaker: And then it seemed natural to

Speaker: me, the strings, you know,

Speaker: thinking of the, the kind of the

Speaker: warmth they can bring and the

Speaker: kind of the richness even like I

Speaker: might say.

Speaker: And then I thought, well, you know, how high, how low.

Speaker: And I thought it would be really nice to use the viola, because

Speaker: the viola is often in the middle of the texture.

Speaker: You know, if you think of a string quartet, two violins,

Speaker: viola and cello, and they play often a kind of accompanying

Speaker: role, it's not as projecting as either the violin or the cello.

Speaker: So all of that seemed to feel

Speaker: right, actually, because I

Speaker: thought, this is like PA or like

Speaker: the artwork man in the middle

Speaker: doing a lot of, of heavy

Speaker: lifting, essentially playing an

Speaker: absolutely integral role in

Speaker: whatever it is, the musical

Speaker: texture or the, the process of

Speaker: getting these patterns onto the

Speaker: wall.

Speaker: And yet often being ignored.

Speaker: So, so that seemed really right.

Speaker: And I like that There are other factors about the viola too,

Speaker: such as I would say it's about as big as it could be to be held

Speaker: up, which means it's not very easy to play.

Speaker: So there's quite a lot of kind of even labor, you could say,

Speaker: involved in playing it.

Speaker: And you can sometimes hear that.

Speaker: And that, I thought is also nice

Speaker: in terms of looking at this,

Speaker: this laboring, because although

Speaker: these patterns look beautiful

Speaker: and, you know, great on the

Speaker: wall, what it's taken to, to get

Speaker: them, there is a lot of kind of

Speaker: dirty work.

Speaker: Quite often, you know, crafting like this and, you know,

Speaker: pricking and pouncing, as we know about from the film.

Speaker: Um, so I like the fact that you can hear the mechanics of the

Speaker: instrument and you can hear the even to an extent that the

Speaker: struggle and then that, because it's, it's, it's big, It's a bit

Speaker: lower sound than the violin.

Speaker: It's got that kind of mellow singing that also felt right to

Speaker: me for part.

Speaker: You know, something?

Speaker: Uh, not the, the most grand and soaring instrument like the the

Speaker: violin and even the cello is kind of like that.

Speaker: Obviously it's lower again in range than the viola, but

Speaker: somehow it projects very well.

Speaker: And there are pieces like the Elgar Cello Concerto.

Speaker: We're very used to hearing that kind of heroic cello sound,

Speaker: whereas the viola just sitting in the middle.

Speaker: That felt right for so many reasons.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that's so interesting.

Speaker: The idea of the viola as a kind of overlooked instrument that

Speaker: you uncover through your score and how that, um, really speaks

Speaker: to this idea of the art workman as an overlooked figure.

Speaker: But also it's really fascinating

Speaker: what you said about the viola,

Speaker: sort of showcasing the labour of

Speaker: its own playing, which which we

Speaker: wanted to explore through this

Speaker: sort of close analysis of PA's

Speaker: workmanship, the use of macro

Speaker: lenses to to show the detail of

Speaker: his work.

Speaker: But also, as you were talking about that, it reminded me of

Speaker: the fact that in the film we also display our own labour of

Speaker: making the film.

Speaker: So there's, there's this sort of

Speaker: this theme of making and labour

Speaker: goes through, you know, the film

Speaker: itself, but also the, the, the

Speaker: soundtrack.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, that's a reason I was so happy that you'd already thought

Speaker: about the fact that you want you wanted a composition or you

Speaker: wanted music writing, especially for the film because and another

Speaker: thing I thought about early on in the process was, well, why

Speaker: don't they just use a bit of Vaughan Williams here.

Speaker: Whatever else.

Speaker: I mean, you could have just drawn on even exclusively

Speaker: Vaughan Williams and kind of got a kind of, um, authentic, uh,

Speaker: sound for the thing, but it wouldn't have been totally tied

Speaker: to, to the, the, the project.

Speaker: And I think that that's exactly,

Speaker: uh, chiming with what you're

Speaker: saying that things, uh, we kind

Speaker: of reflected the way Paul was

Speaker: working in the way we made the

Speaker: film, as in showing that that

Speaker: labor and thinking about it and

Speaker: having sort of layers of process

Speaker: embedded into the, into the, the

Speaker: result.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: And you mentioned Vaughan Williams there.

Speaker: Um, so I thought I might ask you to reflect a little bit on

Speaker: musical Sickle influences that you were inspired by?

Speaker: I mean, was Vaughan Williams one of them or were there others?

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: Um, Vaughan Williams was a great starting point because the arts

Speaker: and crafts ideas of, of a sort of William Morris, a famous

Speaker: example, I'm sure you've talked about this elsewhere, um, that I

Speaker: think probably the best musical companion for that is Vaughan

Speaker: Williams because he was very interested in English folk song.

Speaker: And so going back to those folk

Speaker: roots and almost rediscovering

Speaker: that and even recontextualizing

Speaker: to an extent, um, in his music

Speaker: felt to me like something that

Speaker: fit very well with this arts and

Speaker: crafts movement.

Speaker: So I did for a while, think of

Speaker: it as a kind of research

Speaker: project, sort of immersed

Speaker: myself.

Speaker: I mean, I knew Vaughan Williams's scores already, but

Speaker: really to kind of deliberately immerse myself in them and even

Speaker: look at some of the, the, the kind of technique and mechanics

Speaker: of, of, of how they were made.

Speaker: And so I enjoyed that for, for a while.

Speaker: But then as I thought more about the film, I felt actually this

Speaker: idea of layers and time and process that happily, I didn't

Speaker: need to be just kind of only grounded in the Vaughan Williams

Speaker: and to be trying to make a kind of pastiche, because I also

Speaker: thought that didn't quite do justice to, to the the overall

Speaker: aims and ideals.

Speaker: So I thought, because we're

Speaker: going to see things like how the

Speaker: house is used today and we're

Speaker: going to reflect on how it has

Speaker: even changed over time and and

Speaker: how it's been preserved and the

Speaker: different kind of even the

Speaker: different hands that have been

Speaker: involved in that preserving of

Speaker: the house.

Speaker: Um, I could be kind of freed and, and also stray into idioms

Speaker: that were perhaps a bit later than Vaughan Williams.

Speaker: So I have to say, Michael Tippett was a, was an influence

Speaker: for me there because I know his music very well as also.

Speaker: And that felt like something

Speaker: that was connected to folk music

Speaker: too.

Speaker: But in a slightly more even, you could say, more rugged way.

Speaker: That's how it feels to me anyway.

Speaker: So one of my favourite sections in the film, although there are

Speaker: so many, uh, is the sequence in All Saints Church.

Speaker: So I think we're going to listen to that sequence now.

Speaker: So I really love the way that the rising notes of the viola

Speaker: speak to the the sort of footage that we have of the drone rising

Speaker: up to capture Parr's signature on the west wall.

Speaker: Um, and you were saying earlier that the, the viola doesn't soar

Speaker: in the way that the violin does, but there's a little bit of

Speaker: soaring there, I think.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That was one section where I

Speaker: really did want it to soar and

Speaker: to, to have a sense of kind of

Speaker: lifting off.

Speaker: Um, it was a gorgeous passage to sort of work with passage of

Speaker: film, as it were, because it's got this space in the church

Speaker: that you don't have the luxury of in the house.

Speaker: So it kind of invited something a little more kind of spacious

Speaker: feeling and working with pattern as so much in this film.

Speaker: I mean, of course is what it's

Speaker: about and extent, isn't it, but

Speaker: musical pattern.

Speaker: And what is being done in the church.

Speaker: You see different patterns one below another or, you know, side

Speaker: by side or something.

Speaker: And so I wanted to sort of

Speaker: experiment with trying to

Speaker: combine patterns musically as

Speaker: well.

Speaker: And that meant that again, layering actually, because the

Speaker: piano can be doing one thing kind of groove, you might say

Speaker: type of pattern.

Speaker: And then the viola do something slightly different that that I

Speaker: wanted to, um, try and reflect this idea of lots of pattern,

Speaker: you know, you're sort of enveloped by this, this pattern.

Speaker: And then of course, also the church itself.

Speaker: So I was thinking perhaps this

Speaker: is blindingly obvious to anybody

Speaker: who sees and listens to the

Speaker: film, but of church bells at the

Speaker: beginning.

Speaker: So I created this idea of the, the kind of pealing bells and,

Speaker: uh, try to find a route through that, as it were, with the viola

Speaker: working more kind of melodically rather than harmonically and

Speaker: sort of with resonance, which the piano does so well because

Speaker: you can sustain sounds on it just just like bells sustain.

Speaker: So it was really enjoyable to, to work with and, and also to

Speaker: just feel that when once I hit upon the way I felt it should

Speaker: begin, I was just kind of molding it from there around

Speaker: what was happening in the film.

Speaker: So for instance, the the ascent

Speaker: from the drone, it's own footage

Speaker: before we see the drone itself,

Speaker: how can it feel that it rises

Speaker: there?

Speaker: And how can we, by the end of this cue, feel that we're on

Speaker: this kind of higher, higher plane, as it were?

Speaker: I mean, we're seeing the very top of of the church, aren't we,

Speaker: in the way you you couldn't get up there without the drone.

Speaker: Uh, so I wanted it to feel really high.

Speaker: That's another thing that the viola does very well.

Speaker: You can really sense when it's difficult to play up there and

Speaker: to be in that register.

Speaker: So it helped me a lot to kind of put across the way I felt when I

Speaker: watched the film.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: And that's interesting because

Speaker: it also echoes the difficulty we

Speaker: had capturing that footage with

Speaker: the drone, because in fact, when

Speaker: we sent it up the first couple

Speaker: of times.

Speaker: It was too dark up there for us

Speaker: to capture anything, so I had to

Speaker: run out to a shop and buy the

Speaker: tiniest torch I could find,

Speaker: which we then taped to the drone

Speaker: and then sent it, made, and then

Speaker: it.

Speaker: And then it worked.

Speaker: Yeah, handmade is perfect.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, also, I have to say I

Speaker: wrote this and I mean, I know

Speaker: what it takes to put music

Speaker: together, chamber music and

Speaker: working collaboratively, but

Speaker: it's harder to play than you

Speaker: might imagine because there was

Speaker: so much going on with the

Speaker: pattern and where I felt

Speaker: inspired.

Speaker: Okay, there can just be the slightest deviation here.

Speaker: We'll stop it from feeling square, because actually, that's

Speaker: an interesting thing in music.

Speaker: If you're if you're too constrained by a pattern, it

Speaker: sounds and feels square, whereas on the walls, it somehow never

Speaker: did to me because there's always The play of light and shade from

Speaker: from lights, be they natural or or whatever else.

Speaker: A torch or candle for par.

Speaker: So that meant there's a. If you look at the score, you see there

Speaker: are lots of strange changes that hopefully come across just as

Speaker: something very organic and something continuously

Speaker: interesting and changing.

Speaker: But actually, when you try to

Speaker: put that together with another

Speaker: person and coordinate where

Speaker: there's, you know, there might

Speaker: be the tiniest amount shaved off

Speaker: a bar in order to make something

Speaker: else happen.

Speaker: Nice in the following bar.

Speaker: Uh, it's actually very challenging.

Speaker: And then of course, it needs to sound like it's not challenging.

Speaker: So it wasn't easy to, to record that that section, in fact.

Speaker: Um, but I also know what it

Speaker: takes from a workman's

Speaker: perspective and what artists

Speaker: they are actually to make things

Speaker: look right.

Speaker: You know, should the pattern

Speaker: start here or should it start

Speaker: there?

Speaker: Should it be slightly smaller here?

Speaker: Should it be, uh, you know, just

Speaker: accommodating the kind of

Speaker: natural environment that the

Speaker: pattern needs to go into because

Speaker: dimensions of a wall are always

Speaker: slightly informed by, you know,

Speaker: what, what's going on with the

Speaker: earth or other factors, you

Speaker: know, what's the size of the

Speaker: door, you know, these kind of

Speaker: things.

Speaker: So working around that kind of thing I found was, was very

Speaker: interesting to try and reflect in the music.

Speaker: But exactly like you say, something that's surprisingly

Speaker: difficult to achieve is going on behind the scenes.

Speaker: And to go back briefly to that section in All Saints, um, I

Speaker: really love the way that once that I love the way the film

Speaker: works with the music.

Speaker: They work so beautifully together.

Speaker: When the drone has sort of

Speaker: reached its highest point, it

Speaker: has shown us past signature,

Speaker: which is so important for the

Speaker: narrative of the film because it

Speaker: it showcases the sort of agency

Speaker: and the stamp of the art

Speaker: workman.

Speaker: The drone moves to the side of

Speaker: the camera, moves away, and past

Speaker: signature fades back into the

Speaker: darkness.

Speaker: And at the same time, the viola has kind of reached its high

Speaker: point and fades away.

Speaker: And we're left with the piano, I

Speaker: think, at the end of that

Speaker: sequence.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And the light comes through the window, doesn't it?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: And actually, we can then hear

Speaker: the beginning of the next

Speaker: sequence, just the kind of

Speaker: almost the folly of it, the

Speaker: sound of footsteps or something

Speaker: we hear near the beginning,

Speaker: don't we?

Speaker: In a minute we're going to to listen to a couple of other

Speaker: sections of the school.

Speaker: But as you were talking, I was interested in exploring a bit

Speaker: more this idea of the music complementing the film and and

Speaker: sort of trying to explore the same kinds of themes in, in the

Speaker: way that the film does.

Speaker: And I wondered, actually, were there any moments where you felt

Speaker: you wanted to push against that and actually do something with

Speaker: the music that maybe jars with the film, in a way?

Speaker: Um, I mean, it might not be an

Speaker: easy question to answer because

Speaker: I'm thinking about the way in

Speaker: which something, you know,

Speaker: different art forms relate to

Speaker: each other.

Speaker: So for example, something like

Speaker: book illustration in an

Speaker: illustrated novel.

Speaker: Sometimes the the illustrations don't just illustrate in the

Speaker: kind of traditional sense of the term of sort of throwing light

Speaker: on the text, they actually reframe the text and do

Speaker: something different with it.

Speaker: And I, I wondered whether during

Speaker: the process or maybe even once

Speaker: you've, you know, watched the

Speaker: film back a few times with your

Speaker: composition there, whether you

Speaker: feel there are any moments of

Speaker: tension or the music doing

Speaker: something that the film had not

Speaker: intended.

Speaker: And I think it's a great

Speaker: question, actually, and I

Speaker: there's not something that

Speaker: springs to mind as a point where

Speaker: I wanted to kind of contradict

Speaker: what the film was doing, but I

Speaker: would say I constantly wanted to

Speaker: complement what was there

Speaker: visually in the sense not of

Speaker: being the same, of being

Speaker: different, of really kind of

Speaker: bringing or bringing out, um,

Speaker: what was maybe not obvious from

Speaker: the film.

Speaker: Um, so I'm trying to think of

Speaker: ways that that kind of manifests

Speaker: itself.

Speaker: Um, but even the sort of

Speaker: general, uh, kind of outlook of

Speaker: the sort of, uh, the, the idiom

Speaker: of the writing being maybe

Speaker: slightly more contemporary than

Speaker: this sort of late nineteenth

Speaker: century sound.

Speaker: I was a sort of stance in that respect.

Speaker: I mean, this is reflected in the film as well.

Speaker: Um, because of it being kind of we're looking at it now.

Speaker: It's not just trying to be a nineteenth century pastiche.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Um, and then I would think about

Speaker: things like, I mean, the opening

Speaker: sequence, in fact, that's

Speaker: outside.

Speaker: But I wanted there to already be a sense of pattern, but make it

Speaker: kind of untamed there.

Speaker: So that's why that's slightly more rugged than some of the

Speaker: music that comes later.

Speaker: And then sometimes we're looking at interiors.

Speaker: And I mean, the interiors

Speaker: themselves imply something, but

Speaker: the interiors are often telling

Speaker: some story.

Speaker: Often that's there in the text, to be honest as well.

Speaker: But the music I really felt could be this or that spin on

Speaker: the interior and how you might feel about it.

Speaker: So sometimes even you might be looking at the same rooms, but

Speaker: the music is different and therefore makes you feel very

Speaker: differently about it.

Speaker: The same walls even.

Speaker: And so sometimes it might have a

Speaker: slightly melancholic feeling to

Speaker: it.

Speaker: Others it might have what I thought was a sort of sense of

Speaker: transcendence, particularly at the end of the film.

Speaker: I wanted it to feel like that these patterns are reaching and

Speaker: striving for something, you know, in the way that Paul was

Speaker: kind of bringing home literally all of his skill and passion and

Speaker: tireless dedication and creating something that went really

Speaker: beyond so that I wanted the music to kind of go beyond.

Speaker: But visually, I do think that it's stunning, but we're we're

Speaker: just looking at walls.

Speaker: That was something I felt, yeah,

Speaker: constantly actually that that it

Speaker: could be really helping

Speaker: articulate what I knew the film

Speaker: was meaning.

Speaker: But when the material that there

Speaker: is to work with is just

Speaker: patterned walls, as great as

Speaker: they are, I always felt there

Speaker: was something that could be

Speaker: added.

Speaker: Yeah, musically that helped that.

Speaker: Yeah, maybe we'll, um, we'll

Speaker: alight on a section where I, I

Speaker: did do some contradiction, but

Speaker: nothing springs straight to

Speaker: mind.

Speaker: No that's fine.

Speaker: I mean, I think what you've described there is, is so

Speaker: interesting and I think although I think Lily talked a bit about

Speaker: the way in which film can evoke emotions in the viewer.

Speaker: And it's a kind of affective mode.

Speaker: I mean, arguably your music even more so.

Speaker: I feel that the sort of way in which it speaks to a whole kind

Speaker: of range of affects in the in the, in the listener really

Speaker: added a fantastic dimension to the, to the film as a whole.

Speaker: Oh thank you.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's something I wanted to achieve with the music.

Speaker: And I thought it was important that it did that and not, you

Speaker: know, not only helpful.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: So I think we're going to go on

Speaker: to listen to a, another section

Speaker: of the film now, which is the

Speaker: section that focuses on Mary

Speaker: Kempski, an artist who we filmed

Speaker: recreating one of David Parr's

Speaker: painting techniques.

Speaker: So there's a very different feel and mood to this section.

Speaker: It feels more upbeat.

Speaker: The light, staccato piano notes seem to me to really brilliantly

Speaker: suggest the precision of the prick and pounce technique.

Speaker: This technique of transferring pattern to a wall, which PA

Speaker: used, and I feel like this whole section of the score really

Speaker: captures the joy of making.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Well, I'm delighted that you say that, because it's exactly what

Speaker: was in my mind.

Speaker: I mean, I felt that this must have been PA when he was very

Speaker: happy, you know, at his work.

Speaker: And you mentioned different tones.

Speaker: Exactly that.

Speaker: Because what goes into making something is not always similar

Speaker: at all to the result of it, even though the result can be what's

Speaker: in mind the whole time.

Speaker: You know, it's got a kind of, uh, dirtiness even to the craft,

Speaker: the, the mess that the craftsperson makes while they're

Speaker: creating this brilliant work.

Speaker: And I wanted to help some of that come across.

Speaker: So, um, exactly as you say, the kind of the pricking and the

Speaker: pouncing are quite a literal thing that there's lots of small

Speaker: dabs, you know, that's literally how you play that on the piano

Speaker: with a small dab that's very similar to I mean, I haven't

Speaker: tried pricking and pouncing myself, but I would imagine

Speaker: that's the same kind of movement would be made there.

Speaker: I also felt that it's a kind of it's a modest, quiet moment.

Speaker: So it's actually a a spacious part of the score.

Speaker: It comes just after the church

Speaker: sequence, which is full of

Speaker: resonance and evoking this huge

Speaker: building and even place of

Speaker: worship.

Speaker: Of course, it's a place of

Speaker: worship, but it's also worship

Speaker: of pattern.

Speaker: If you go in there and when you

Speaker: see it in the film now here,

Speaker: it's, it's, it's the background,

Speaker: it's the, you know, behind the

Speaker: scenes work, pa just by himself

Speaker: doing this thing probably fairly

Speaker: quietly.

Speaker: So, so that's how I wanted it to, to feel musically.

Speaker: And I think the, the viola being quite spread out over a range.

Speaker: So going from low, low notes to high notes most of the time with

Speaker: jumps, That's quite difficult.

Speaker: And so again, that was something

Speaker: I felt I want to hear a little

Speaker: bit of the difficulty of that in

Speaker: the performance that we record,

Speaker: so that there's some sense of

Speaker: this kind of laboring, even

Speaker: though this is not kind of heavy

Speaker: laboring.

Speaker: It's, it's, it's, there's

Speaker: something in it where you can

Speaker: hear that there's a person

Speaker: crafting it.

Speaker: And of course, the fact that you're pricking and pouncing

Speaker: rather than, you know, sticking up wallpaper, which at first

Speaker: glance the result of it could look like that.

Speaker: And in fact, I think the House often have to clarify that these

Speaker: walls are not wallpapered.

Speaker: You know, when someone is looking at it online or

Speaker: something in pictures, that's all done by hand.

Speaker: I wanted it to feel handmade.

Speaker: So writing in some difficulty is is a good way to do that.

Speaker: Actually, I also used some

Speaker: again, modest, just small

Speaker: different techniques in, in this

Speaker: queue, one of which is where the

Speaker: violist kind of bows the side of

Speaker: the instrument.

Speaker: So it's just the sound of the, the horsehair of the bow on the

Speaker: wood of the instrument.

Speaker: It's very quiet sound.

Speaker: But of course, when you record it with fine, and I could make

Speaker: it the volume that we wanted, but that is connected with the.

Speaker: It's almost the diegetic sounds of what we can see on the film.

Speaker: And I thought it'd be nice if

Speaker: that just blurred a bit here and

Speaker: there.

Speaker: So I used that effect in the viola.

Speaker: It actually almost sounds like breathing as well.

Speaker: And this is something else I thought is, is that is part of

Speaker: the way Pas breathed.

Speaker: You know, he didn't go home and just think, oh, I'm done.

Speaker: I just want to put my feet up.

Speaker: He wanted to do some of that

Speaker: crafting he was doing for other

Speaker: people during the day for

Speaker: himself.

Speaker: So it's quite it's almost a therapeutic aspect, I would say.

Speaker: So I was happy that that came through.

Speaker: And even you can actually hear.

Speaker: So Rosie Ventress, the violist, you can hear her breathing

Speaker: sometimes in the recording.

Speaker: And I was happy to leave that in.

Speaker: Just as you can hear a dog

Speaker: barking at some point very

Speaker: quietly in the distance from the

Speaker: the filming session with with

Speaker: Mary Kempski.

Speaker: Just leaving those small.

Speaker: They're not imperfections at all.

Speaker: They're the perfection.

Speaker: That's the.

Speaker: That's exactly what you want.

Speaker: Those little things like that.

Speaker: And so leaving those in and then in the piano, I used some.

Speaker: If you kind of run your fingers along the keys, but without

Speaker: playing any of the keys, you can hear the sound of basically a

Speaker: fingernail on the, on the keys.

Speaker: It's very gentle, but it for me was quite like some of the

Speaker: sounds that are involved in the actual process of picking about,

Speaker: pricking and pouncing, and that's why I put those into the

Speaker: music there as well.

Speaker: So there would be this sense that it was again, kind of

Speaker: springing from the, the material of, of the film.

Speaker: And there's another section of

Speaker: the film that really tries to

Speaker: bring out this idea of the

Speaker: relationship between art and

Speaker: labor.

Speaker: And that's the footage of PA's toolbox.

Speaker: Um, and I really like the way the music there is.

Speaker: The tempo increases.

Speaker: It's much, much faster.

Speaker: And it kind of brilliantly evokes the day to day working

Speaker: business of making.

Speaker: And to an extent, although we've talked about the joy of making

Speaker: and PA's joy in it, there's a sense here of the kind of

Speaker: relentless nature of labor.

Speaker: Yeah, that's again, exactly all the things I was hoping to

Speaker: capture with it.

Speaker: I thought, you know, PA working late into the night and clocking

Speaker: up all these hours after hours, as it were.

Speaker: He must have absolutely loved it.

Speaker: And so there needed to be that kind of thrill about it.

Speaker: And whilst the walls themselves, they have, as we've said, this

Speaker: sort of grandeur and there's the emotional layers of it all when

Speaker: we look back now also thinking about how they got there.

Speaker: There's the the industry of it and the busyness of it.

Speaker: So that's what I wanted to kind

Speaker: of get going in this section of

Speaker: the film.

Speaker: So making it quite rhythmic

Speaker: actually, and using pattern in

Speaker: that way and making it fun

Speaker: actually.

Speaker: So not particularly trying to tap into the, uh, emotional, uh,

Speaker: resonances of it, but more just the kind of almost the texture

Speaker: of the work.

Speaker: Um, was, was something that was

Speaker: important to me that, um,

Speaker: sometimes, I mean, in the middle

Speaker: of that competition, this was

Speaker: something that felt necessary

Speaker: compositionally, but I felt also

Speaker: works for me, at least with,

Speaker: with what I was thinking about

Speaker: and getting from, from the film

Speaker: at that point, the places where

Speaker: it goes a bit wrong, you know, I

Speaker: mean, for me, the closest I've

Speaker: got is probably building up Ikea

Speaker: furniture.

Speaker: You know, there's always a

Speaker: moment where you think there's a

Speaker: bit missing or you've used the

Speaker: wrong screw or dowel or

Speaker: whatever.

Speaker: So just in the middle, there's a sort of doubting of itself.

Speaker: Um, and then it returns.

Speaker: It gets back on track.

Speaker: Uh, so I enjoyed doing that as well.

Speaker: But that was one of those things

Speaker: where it just went there

Speaker: compositionally.

Speaker: And then I thought, oh, that's actually, it works just fine.

Speaker: And the, the footage of the

Speaker: house at that point, it's also a

Speaker: bit like we're kind of exploring

Speaker: it in this not sort of illicit

Speaker: way, but, you know, it's just

Speaker: like we're, we're creeping

Speaker: around the house saying, oh,

Speaker: what's this?

Speaker: What's this?

Speaker: And picking things out of, of his toolbox.

Speaker: Why did he have this?

Speaker: What were these pills for?

Speaker: That kind of feeling.

Speaker: I wanted to, to help that come across with the music as well.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: So I think we're going to listen to our final section now, which

Speaker: is fittingly the the last sequence in the film.

Speaker: And as I was listening to this recently, it felt to me, you're

Speaker: doing all sorts of interesting things here, Rick, because it

Speaker: feels like we're moving into a more sort of elegiac register.

Speaker: Initially, there are longer,

Speaker: deeper notes on the viola,

Speaker: slurred notes, lots of slurred

Speaker: notes.

Speaker: And there's a sort of sense of an impending ending.

Speaker: But also, as we move into the final sequence in which we see

Speaker: Parr's house being used by visitors today, there's another

Speaker: change in mood.

Speaker: The tempo increases again and contributes to this sense of the

Speaker: house still being a living thing, the museum being a living

Speaker: thing and a vibrant place to be.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I felt this was a very important sequence in the film, not least

Speaker: because it's at the end.

Speaker: But as you've alluded to, that

Speaker: it's bringing together many

Speaker: elements.

Speaker: We see LC pa a photograph on the

Speaker: screen, and actually, even

Speaker: without music, it's quite

Speaker: emotive moment.

Speaker: So I felt there needed to be

Speaker: something appropriate to

Speaker: underscore that.

Speaker: And so hence actually some of the space in the music.

Speaker: And it's a point where it becomes a bit more simple than

Speaker: it has been previously.

Speaker: There's less pattern actually

Speaker: for for some of it, there's just

Speaker: Melody that's coming from the

Speaker: viola.

Speaker: So that's, that was how I approached it initially.

Speaker: Then I felt something special happens in the film and in the

Speaker: way the story is told.

Speaker: I felt this is very ambitious.

Speaker: I know I was ambitious with it compositionally.

Speaker: I wanted to create this sense of timelessness, you know?

Speaker: So those walls, once they were there, they were there.

Speaker: And now it has this great, uh,

Speaker: grade two star listed status

Speaker: where presumably they will stay

Speaker: there for a very long time to

Speaker: come.

Speaker: And there's something that have come to mean something to a lot

Speaker: of people, not only in Cambridge, but way beyond.

Speaker: So a way to kind of get from pattern.

Speaker: Pure pattern to that sense of feeling.

Speaker: That's what I hope would happen.

Speaker: Where there's the the kind of

Speaker: layers being revealed within the

Speaker: house.

Speaker: Um, I was very pleased with how that came out.

Speaker: So as there's, uh, something that's now hanging on a, on a

Speaker: clothes hanger is, is taken away and we see behind the, I think

Speaker: it's a coat.

Speaker: We see the wall where there's

Speaker: some sort of, uh, break in

Speaker: continuity.

Speaker: You know, it's been painted over and then it's, there's just this

Speaker: sort of square root reveal that looks completely different from

Speaker: the walls on either side.

Speaker: That was was something that felt

Speaker: very significant to me in terms

Speaker: of a distillation of this layers

Speaker: concept.

Speaker: Even the opening of the window curtains, that's something.

Speaker: And then the lifting of the rug.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That those little moments, I felt that the music could really

Speaker: help articulate the meaning of those moments for the film in,

Speaker: in that context.

Speaker: Is that such a key idea in the film, this idea of uncovering a

Speaker: hidden history that we we kind of figure through the literal

Speaker: uncovering of things in the house, like the toolbox and the

Speaker: painted wall under the coat.

Speaker: But yeah, just to come back to the, the last sort of sequence

Speaker: of the film, there's a moment when the viola returns.

Speaker: Um, and it felt to me, and I wondered what you think about

Speaker: this idea that at this moment, the viola is, is, and perhaps

Speaker: this is the case throughout the film, and this is something Lily

Speaker: and I talked about last time.

Speaker: This idea that the viola is somehow standing in for par.

Speaker: And that moment at the end of the film, there's a sense of the

Speaker: viola aka PA returning, an almost sort of watching and

Speaker: observing the house.

Speaker: There's this feeling of the house being held by the viola

Speaker: and kind of embraced by it.

Speaker: And so I wondered what you thought about that, but also

Speaker: this idea of the viola being a kind of figure for PA.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Yeah, I like that very much.

Speaker: I would say I thought about that

Speaker: at the beginning of the process,

Speaker: that the what I mean, finding

Speaker: the right voice for PA was, I

Speaker: know, a great concern of yours

Speaker: and Lily.

Speaker: Um, but, uh, also for me, the viola felt like the right

Speaker: instrument there, you know, something, um, mellow and

Speaker: striving, I might say.

Speaker: Um, the, yeah, the, the warmth and the soul of it.

Speaker: I think that the soul is particularly important there

Speaker: because that's what you get from the house, isn't it?

Speaker: There's like absolutely extraordinary that someone would

Speaker: would do this.

Speaker: And that's the, the kind of the moving aspect of it for me is

Speaker: that especially that someone might do that not for any public

Speaker: consumption, you know, just for one's own family or self, even.

Speaker: You know, it's that pure love of of craft and what you do that

Speaker: actually, I think.

Speaker: Any musician will identify completely with.

Speaker: And certainly for me, it was it it felt very closely connected

Speaker: with my ethos and sort of the way of, of being.

Speaker: Um, yeah.

Speaker: So I would say for sure that's, that's a way of, of reading it.

Speaker: I mean, one of the beauties of,

Speaker: of music is that things can be

Speaker: very malleable.

Speaker: So I wouldn't say that the viola

Speaker: is always the voice of, of pah

Speaker: representing other things as

Speaker: well.

Speaker: But I guess you could also say that they all feed into this

Speaker: kind of picture of, of him.

Speaker: And certainly at the end, I

Speaker: wanted that sense of, of

Speaker: something a bit more personal

Speaker: and direct and was trying to get

Speaker: that in.

Speaker: But of course, it's even interesting that his notebooks,

Speaker: they're mainly technical recordings, aren't they?

Speaker: You write so many hours doing this or that, this kind of

Speaker: varnish, whatever else, rather than any sort of emotional, uh,

Speaker: kind of diary.

Speaker: I think he put all the emotion into the painting itself.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So, so that informed what I did as well, because it was like,

Speaker: there'll be this rare moment where he just kind of reveals

Speaker: what he thinks from himself rather than through his work and

Speaker: his, um, yeah, his labor.

Speaker: Uh, and then actually it feels more precious because of that.

Speaker: So one of the most exciting

Speaker: moments of this project was the

Speaker: event that we ran in All Saints

Speaker: Church, which was a big

Speaker: screening of the film in which

Speaker: you performed the music live

Speaker: with violist singer Foy

Speaker: Dorliska.

Speaker: Mhm.

Speaker: Um, I mean, for me that that was

Speaker: the last public screening we

Speaker: did.

Speaker: And it was a, a fantastic coming together of the project.

Speaker: So the film was screened without the music so that you could

Speaker: actually play live to it.

Speaker: Tell us a bit about what that experience was like.

Speaker: Well, it was very special

Speaker: because whilst I'd visited the

Speaker: house, I'd actually been to the

Speaker: church.

Speaker: Um, so this building that I knew

Speaker: so well, purely from the exact

Speaker: footage of the film, to see that

Speaker: in the flesh was, was something

Speaker: else.

Speaker: And really, you know, the

Speaker: process of writing the music

Speaker: meant a very intimate connection

Speaker: with that footage that you

Speaker: captured.

Speaker: Well, that Lili captured whilst you were there that day.

Speaker: Um, because I don't know how

Speaker: many times I watched it, but I

Speaker: really felt like David, that

Speaker: Pollock.

Speaker: I could have been writing down one thousand and four times.

Speaker: I've watched it now, you know.

Speaker: So it was very special to actually be in there.

Speaker: And of course, this really kind of meta concept of we're

Speaker: watching a film about this church, in this church, and it's

Speaker: all about creation and, um, uh, kind of handmade things.

Speaker: And we're doing it by hand.

Speaker: You know, the making the music there.

Speaker: So I thought it was a beautiful idea that we did it in that way.

Speaker: I mean, I hadn't particularly had an eye for it being

Speaker: performed live while I wrote it.

Speaker: So it wasn't something I made

Speaker: easy, let's say, because the the

Speaker: timing then became very

Speaker: important.

Speaker: And trying to coordinate perfectly with the film was, was

Speaker: something of a challenge in itself, but again, it has made

Speaker: it exhilarating and sort of exciting in that way.

Speaker: For me, it was very exciting to actually watch the film without

Speaker: having to play.

Speaker: Um, as we had in a, in a screening elsewhere.

Speaker: Um, but I thought it was very beautiful to, to have the, uh,

Speaker: have that music coming live, uh, from the space.

Speaker: And of course, the acoustic of

Speaker: the church was, was particularly

Speaker: perfect for the, for the

Speaker: sequence that's in the church

Speaker: and the kind of resonance that

Speaker: that demands.

Speaker: Um, so, and also the piano actually was, was sort of

Speaker: perfect period instrument for the subject and brought out new

Speaker: elements of the composition that I kind of enjoyed hearing and

Speaker: discovering as that was evolving live in, in the performance.

Speaker: Uh, but it's a big thing to, to

Speaker: have written music and then also

Speaker: play it as well, and then also

Speaker: have to play it in a certain way

Speaker: because, you know, the film is

Speaker: fixed.

Speaker: So it had to go with that.

Speaker: Um, so yeah, full of interesting complications doing it live.

Speaker: But, but really, I thought it was very special evening to, to

Speaker: have that done live.

Speaker: Yeah, it worked brilliantly.

Speaker: And the audience response was fantastic.

Speaker: I don't know if you're aware of

Speaker: how long the, the ovation went

Speaker: on.

Speaker: I mean, it did actually go on

Speaker: for a very long time, which was

Speaker: wonderful.

Speaker: It was really nice, actually.

Speaker: The, the guide who'd shown me

Speaker: round when I visited just as I

Speaker: mean, it wasn't going as a

Speaker: tourist.

Speaker: Uh, exactly.

Speaker: But from their point of view, I

Speaker: was just someone in a tour

Speaker: group.

Speaker: Um, the, the exact guide that I'd had was there in the

Speaker: audience and I'd clocked that she was there beforehand.

Speaker: So that was actually quite

Speaker: moving for me because I knew

Speaker: firsthand what it meant to to

Speaker: her.

Speaker: And then there were so many other people connected with,

Speaker: with the family and with the house there in the audience.

Speaker: That's right.

Speaker: And the church.

Speaker: So yeah, the volunteer communities from the church and

Speaker: the David Powerhouse.

Speaker: In fact, there's quite a lot of crossover between them.

Speaker: But they were there and PA family members were there too.

Speaker: So it was wonderful to bring all those people together through,

Speaker: through this project.

Speaker: So, Rick, thank you very much for coming in today to talk to

Speaker: us about your wonderful work.

Speaker: Um, that's it for today.

Speaker: For people listening, you will

Speaker: be able to view the film on the

Speaker: center for nineteenth Century

Speaker: Studies website.

Speaker: So please do check that out.

Speaker: And thank you for listening.