In this episode, Within People co-founder Jeff Melnyk is joined by partner Carol Kondo for a grounded and honest conversation about what’s really getting in the way of high performance at work. It’s not strategy - it’s presence.

Together, they unpack what mindfulness really means in a business context, how distraction is showing up in meetings, and why connection, intention and even phone-free boardrooms might just be the unlock for better collaboration and critical thinking.

Tune in for practical tips, thoughtful reflection, and a few laughs as Jeff and Carol explore what it means to show up fully and lead with presence.

Click here more information about Within People and the work we do

Lemme just get my mic.

2

Sorry for my tardiness to shove

some cereal in my mouth real quick.

3

Carol Kondo: No, the

conversation does need energy.

4

It's mindfulness exactly.

5

Jeff Melnyk: Preparing

6

Carol Kondo: hunger, distraction.

7

It was

8

, Jeff Melnyk: the preparation,

9

Carol Kondo: get ready.

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Jeff Melnyk: Get ready.

11

I feel like every time we get into this

studio, Carol, it's like, where in the

12

world are we more So lately it's you.

13

Where in the world are you?

14

Because you've had an exciting moving

to the UK journey that you've been on.

15

And last time we met at the beginning

of the year, you had been relocated.

16

Now I see by your summary at.

17

Carol Kondo: No, I'm not.

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Jeff.

19

Lovely to be the podcast

with you once again.

20

South

21

Africa's diabolical saying that.

22

The UK has been cold.

23

I have not seen or felt the sun on my skin

in a while, so I was like, you know what?

24

I'm outside.

25

I'm feeling the warmth.

26

I'm really soaking in the ray of the sun.

27

So very happy to be recording

from Cape Town this time around

28

and super excited to do this.

29

Jeff Melnyk: And if listeners timestamp

this episode, they will say, actually, in

30

March, Carol, we had some sunny weather.

31

As a former resident of many decades

in the United Kingdom, I can tell you

32

this is part of British lore and that

you will get this pushback around how

33

much sun you do get in the UK just know

that these are urban myths and that

34

the sun will come, but the sun will go.

35

So I applaud your soaking in of

the vitamin D while you're in.

36

One of life's most beautiful,

cities and getting the joy.

37

But you and I have been working together

on quite a few projects lately where we've

38

noticed a bit of a pattern coming up.

39

We've been summoned to the

studio by producer Emily.

40

To talk about this because I think we've

been catching onto some key learnings

41

and just to give a little bit of context

for the listeners joining in there's

42

definitely something in the waters

right now around business performance

43

and how do we get teams to deliver?

44

And you and I have been noticing

there's a couple of blockers to

45

performance that aren't in the typical.

46

Realm of competencies

and delivering on OKRs.

47

There's something else in the waters.

48

I wanted to have this conversation with

you because as we've been working through

49

this journey together, I've noticed

some Carol Wisdom coming into the client

50

work, and I'm hoping our listeners

today will resonate with some of the

51

things that, that we, that we wanna say.

52

So, Carol, you and I have been working

on some projects lately where we've

53

noticed a trend and a theme coming

up, and we discussed that with Emily,

54

our podcast producer, we thought we

should get into the studio right away

55

to capture some of your wisdom around

things we've been noticing here and.

56

Particularly we've been look working

with clients all around how to get

57

teams to perform at their best and

reach the somewhat stretch goals

58

that are in business today, and that

the things that we've been noticing

59

that have been blocking performance

right now are not necessarily clarity

60

around things like OKRs or KPIs, but

more in the quality of presence that

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people are bringing into their work.

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Let's set the scene a

little bit about that.

63

What have we been noticing when we've

been in businesses right now, noticing

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the sort of quality of presence

that people have been bringing.

65

Carol Kondo: So what we have been

noticing, is quite a lot of distraction

66

and sometimes people don't really grasp

the element of the distraction, but.

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Gadgets are distracting people in

meetings, and there's an assumption that

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you always need to be on during meetings.

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Be accessible.

70

Make sure that you respond

to the of the slack.

71

Respond.

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And respond and respond.

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And I know generally in the world

there's an assumption that children

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must be the ones that must have

their gadgets taken away, you know?

75

Or are the ones that are really

struggling with the distractions.

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But it's also filtering its way,

if anything, into the adult space.

77

Into the boardrooms, meetings,

standup meetings and it's having

78

a really significant impact

on the quality of thinking.

79

And I guess maybe there's a

conversation with what has quality of

80

thinking got to do with cell phones?

81

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, it's interesting, if

everybody could just anchor for a second

82

around that notion of the distraction.

83

I mean, personally I find it very

hard to watch anything on TV right

84

now without checking my phone

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I also do this thing where I need to

research whatever I'm watching and

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like find the backstory of something.

87

So rather than just watching the

show and enjoying the show, I've

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got one eye and half my brain on it.

89

Whilst I'm running another script

of some research or I'm texting

90

someone, I've noticed people

walking down the street, they're

91

not actually walking down the street

92

they're on their phones and they're

not on their phones using a map.

93

They are on their phones

texting someone or.

94

I dunno, researching, whatever,

but they're not really present

95

and in the moment, and I think all

of us can have that experience.

96

Carol, you are no

stranger to this, are you?

97

Totally Namaste.

98

Ability to stay focused at all

times on your Korean drama.

99

Carol Kondo: Jeff, I am guilty as charged.

100

Like I'm really standing up

and I'm like, you know what?

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Guilty as charged.

102

My thing is really just watching

TV and TikTok at the same time

103

and thinking I can do both things.

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And what I've realized is I've missed an

essential part of this whole conversation.

105

I've missed something on the

TikTok as well that I was supposed

106

to be watching at that time,

107

in some ways I tend to feel like I didn't

get the satisfaction or the joy of the

108

particular thing that I was watching

fully or fully experience it because I'm

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neither here nor there and I'm nowhere.

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It leaves me feeling

like a need was not met.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, and I think

if we take that into the work

112

environment, there's this sort of

myth of multitasking, isn't it?

113

That I can be in a meeting and

doing something else, or I could

114

be having a conversation with you

whilst I'm sending that email.

115

there's been plenty of research out there

that shows that multitasking is a myth

116

thing two things at once really well.

117

But I think where we've always talked

about that at within is the ability

118

for folks to be mindfully present

we're gonna unpack that a little

119

bit in what we talk about today.

120

'cause I know for some people, mindful

could be a little bit woke, DEI, depending

121

what part of the country you come from.

122

But I think if we got to the

real essence of it, it just

123

means exactly what you said.

124

You're neither here nor there.

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Do the thing that you mean to do.

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Do it well, and feel the joy of it.

127

And I think for me, it's really

the power of being in the zone.

128

When I am doing one thing, I am cooking.

129

I am watching tv.

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I am writing.

131

I am making music.

132

I'm not doing my emails and

trying to text my friends.

133

While I'm doing that, I am in the

zone doing the one thing, and that

134

has such a benefit, not only to my

output of what I'm doing, but also

135

to the joy that I feel in life.

136

I remember when I was recording music.

137

I would lose hours if not days of

just being in the joy of the creation.

138

I would come out of the sort of

like fog of it at about 7:00 PM and

139

realize I had not eaten all day.

140

'cause I was so in the

joy of the creation.

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And I think that is joy.

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Like it's amazing isn't it?

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Do you have experiences like that as well?

144

The sort of flow state

or getting in the zone?

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I

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Carol Kondo: think what's coming

up for me as you speak, Jeff, is

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I'm actually questioning whether

I've really fully experienced

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some of the things that I've done.

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Like how much have I really lost

out in some of the things that

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I claim to have enjoyed, because

a part of my mind was not there.

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What would have happened if I was

in the zone, if I was present with

152

myself, with the client, with the music

that I was listening to, what effect

153

or impact would that have had on me?

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So as we come into spaces, especially

workspaces, how much of ourselves

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are we really leaving behind?

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And how much is the business really

losing out on from the capacity that we

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can offer and possibly the gift of what

we are bringing into that workspace.

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I

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Jeff Melnyk: think you're right.

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Like if I'm a leader and I'm working

with someone, I want to know they're

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in the game or in the show, right?

162

If I go and watch a band play,

I don't want the guitarist to be

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texting in the middle of the show.

164

I want them to give me the show

if I'm going to watch football.

165

Ball.

166

I do not need the Stryker to stop

and like check TikTok because

167

I need them to finish the job.

168

And I think this is where the

discipline of getting into the moment

169

is every one of ours responsibilities.

170

But as a leader, I think I have

a job not only to live up to

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that and walk the talk, but also.

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Ask my team to be present and in the

moment because if I want the team to

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perform, they have to be fully in it.

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As an individual, is there gonna get

more outta the experience of work?

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Carol Kondo: They get more, they

make better decisions, and I feel

176

like we owe the people we work

with as well, our counterparts.

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We owe them quality thinking.

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We owe them quality presence because

there are some people who really take

179

this seriously and show up fully.

180

So to stop others from fading,

from conversations of fading in

181

the workplace, we really all.

182

Others, our whole selves in that moment.

183

And that's not, say,

don't forget, that's well.

184

Would really love it if

all of you was in the room.

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Jeff Melnyk: And not only that, there

has been several pieces of research

186

that have come out, I think all the

way back to twenty sixteen, twenty

187

seventeen, where the smartphone

frenzy was really coming in.

188

That shows that the quality

of our strategic thinking.

189

Drops off, the more we are

devoted to our devices.

190

The research has shown that when the

phone is on the table and all your

191

notifications are on, you aren't really

using the critical thinking part of your

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brain that's gonna give you the best.

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Outcomes for anything that involves

that level of cognitive processing.

194

The research then says that if the phone

has notification silenced or maybe,

195

and the phone is turned over, you get a

little bit better, but you're still so

196

addicted to noticing the notifications

that you've got half your brain on it.

197

So let's just say we're at 25% capacity of

critical thinking when it's in our pocket

198

or when it's in a bag, then we get better.

199

So it allows for more

critical thinking capacity.

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And it really is sort of

the capacity of your brain.

201

So think about like, I can't give

myself fully to thinking critically

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it's better, but because it's still

in our proximity, we can feel it.

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We get itchy for it.

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We want it, we wanna check it.

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I know it's there, especially

if it's in my pocket.

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I can tell it's like

a heavy weight, right.

207

When we take it and we put it

outside of our persons in another

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room, it's nowhere near us.

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The ability for us to think

critically and make better

210

decisions exponentially increases.

211

So the science is there.

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Why aren't people doing this?

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What's stopping us from insisting

that the phone is nowhere

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near us when we're working?

215

Carol Kondo: Jeff, that's a.

216

I think an assumption sometimes

in business that we, we need to be

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available, we need to be accessible.

218

Even though we're in a meeting,

we have stopped cut, like creating

219

zones of concentration, zones of

per of, let me say that again.

220

Stop creating zones that have

no access zones that are really

221

sacred to the process of thinking.

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We believe that if you're not

accessible, something's gonna burn.

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And half of the things that we

actually, are distracted by are

224

things that we can manage or it's

just the excitement, I think because

225

as you were speaking, I thought of

the time knowing your child and.

226

Day in the park doesn't matter

because you're in this feeling

227

of I have to access the park.

228

And that's the same

with our notifications.

229

We're constantly expecting something

and being in a state of expectation

230

constantly, I think is exhausting

on the nervous system to a point.

231

If we stop expecting and think to

ourselves what will be, will be,

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whatever I'll need to deal with,

I'll deal with after this meeting,

233

lemme just be here, offer myself and

hear what other people are thinking

234

and see what that will produce.

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Jeff Melnyk: I think you're right.

236

There's that.

237

Almost addiction or if not overt

addiction to the dopamine hits

238

that we get from the phone.

239

But there's the excitement too.

240

Like you want people to connect with you.

241

You want to be wanted and needed.

242

And so there's something about like,

Ooh, I can't be present in this 45 minute

243

meeting right now because someone's

gonna need me to do something else.

244

Or, you know, we work a lot

in hospitality operationally.

245

Someone might have to call

me and get ahold of me.

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Carol Kondo: I agree with

you, the sense of importance.

247

I am so important that they need me

and I cannot be taken away from them.

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And if I'm not, sometimes maybe it

does also speak to how we've structured

249

our teams, because there are people

who cannot for the life of them,

250

be in a meeting or leading a team

because they're worried about that.

251

Team not having someone to lead them.

252

What are we really saying about

the systems that we've created?

253

Can our people operate without us?

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Can they do without us for 45 minutes?

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I think for most people it's actually yes.

256

But we've set up systems that require

us to be on, in and out a room.

257

Jeff Melnyk: One thing that happens when

you work with within people, and we're in

258

the middle of a creative process with you,

is we have a no phone and laptop policy.

259

I mean, definitely no laptops.

260

You don't need laptops to do the creative

work when you're in a within session.

261

So we always ask people

to put their laptops away.

262

It's just not needed for the

work we're gonna do today.

263

But the phones we've been a

little bit liberal with sometimes.

264

But Carol, we did an experiment lately

where we asked a senior team to put.

265

Their phones away on day one.

266

And just put it in their, in their

bag or in their pocket to notice the

267

difference of their quality of attention.

268

And then on day two, we got a little bit

braver with them and we asked them to put

269

it in a drawer at the back of the room.

270

I was thinking there may

be a small mutiny with.

271

This request, but what, how did it go?

272

I made the request, so it was really

good to get your feedback on how

273

talked it before as a bit of a

strategy to help the group kind of

274

get into connection with each other.

275

But what was your observation of the.

276

Carol Kondo: I thought, oh my

God, are we really gonna do this?

277

Because they we're really

expecting a revolution.

278

The team in credits to them,

they were really good about it.

279

They made an effort.

280

But you could see the itches.

281

I called them the itches, like

they're just itching to get

282

their hands on that phone.

283

They're itching to flip it over.

284

They're itching to just

check for five minutes.

285

So the first day was really tough and.

286

It was hard because there's the Constance

that I'm missing out on something.

287

By the time I'm done here, the house

could have burned down or whatever

288

else is burning in their minds.

289

And it was lovely to see them

step into the discomfort.

290

I think what really worked was

the ability of a team to step into

291

discomfort and to try something.

292

And when we did it the second day and

we asked them to put it in the drawer.

293

When they got the breaks,

like tea break and then they

294

would also get a phone break.

295

You could see like towards the

Serengeti, they're rushing to go and

296

get their phones and you're like, oh

my God, we're having the migration.

297

Right?

298

And then they pick up their

phones, like, check what's

299

happening, lemme make the calls.

300

Those that did their emails.

301

And on time as well, they put

them back and what they said

302

was, it was a, it was a gift.

303

We gave them a gift and them, the

gift of presence, we gave them gift

304

of time, gave them the opportunity

to hear somebody fully without

305

wondering what could be happening.

306

To the people that were not with us.

307

So I think it went well.

308

But it requires bravery.

309

It also requires vulnerability among

the team's part, and accepting that

310

there is something beyond the phones and

the messages that are coming through.

311

Jeff Melnyk: I think that it was,

it was a really great experiment.

312

I wanna do more of that well done

to that team for stepping into it

313

and agreeing to carry on with it.

314

But it feels like we're taking the phones

away and that's gonna revolutionize.

315

The experience of work.

316

I think it's a small step towards

something that is quite a big shift

317

that I would love to encourage

leaders in the workplace to do,

318

which is like you do want your teams

to be high performing right now.

319

There's a lot of uncertainty out there.

320

We need critical thinking.

321

We need creativity right now to solve

not only the problems of the day,

322

but to kind of build the resilience

that's gonna deal with a lot of

323

the uncertainty that's out there.

324

So if you want a high

performing team, you gotta get.

325

Them back in the conditions of

being the best team they can be.

326

And I think in the example of that

client we put that wrapper around it.

327

Like, you guys wanna do

your best work today?

328

You wanna work as a high performing world

class executive team, you're gonna have

329

to change the way you're approaching.

330

The work today, because that's

gonna get you to a better outcome.

331

I feel like that's the imperative.

332

Rather than, Hey, your phone's bugging me.

333

Get your phone out of the room.

334

It is a little bit more of

like, why are we doing this?

335

What is this for?

336

Okay.

337

so we've come up with four top tips on

how we think leaders can be thinking

338

a little bit more about the connection

between performance and presence.

339

As we were drafting these, I was thinking

like, this is what boardrooms need.

340

This is what we need to see executives

around the table, nevermind just

341

great creative minds around the table.

342

Like how do we get.

343

The best thinking out of people who

are supposed to be running the show.

344

As we were coming up with these

tips, I was challenging us to

345

think, would a board do this?

346

And I think they should.

347

So the first tip we've called Get ready.

348

Get ready to get into presence.

349

What does this mean?

350

Carol Kondo: Well, Jeff, honestly

speaking, it's derived from

351

the whole concept of preparing

yourself for something like a

352

date, for example, or going out

to meet someone most of the time.

353

We take time to prepare ourselves.

354

We'll brush our hair, we'll make

sure that our foundation is on

355

flick, we'll make sure we're all

shaved, whatever else we need to do.

356

But there's an element of intention

around your preparation for the self.

357

In the same way when you are getting

into your meetings, the process

358

of removing your is also one of

those things that ready process.

359

Sitting quietly with your thoughts,

and we're not saying sit still like

360

kids in high school or in primary

school, but really just take time

361

to land into the room, find some

form of stillness within yourself.

362

Being here now in the moment and preparing

to meet others in that moment is so

363

useful because when we step into rooms,

we have a different energy and getting.

364

The room to align on an energy is working

itself before we start talking about the

365

things that I essential in that meeting.

366

So there's also the need to consider our

impact on others as well in the room.

367

So it's so important to ground yourself.

368

It's so important to find

stillness because it's not

369

just about you, it's about you.

370

And the bigger good.

371

Jeff Melnyk: I think that's right.

372

We're, we're gonna collaborate.

373

We're gonna make some big decisions.

374

We're a board, we're a senior team.

375

Quite often we've got a meeting right up

to the point where we're joining another

376

meeting or another call, and it's very

difficult for us to clear down what we've

377

just done and step into something new.

378

And I feel like.

379

That's, that's the key.

380

Like are you ready to collaborate today?

381

Are you ready to do your best thinking?

382

How do you get in that sort

of preparation for yourself?

383

Everybody must have their own practice for

that, but I think even something as simple

384

as can we stop booking meetings back to

back to back, to back with each other?

385

Can we have the space that creates

the pause before we go into that?

386

Okay.

387

Top tip number two.

388

We've called this one being intentional

about removing the distractions.

389

We've just been talking about removing

the phone and I think that's one physical

390

thing, like get all the other things

that might distract you outta the way.

391

But I've also got some other distractions

possibly going on in my head.

392

Am I in the moment right now?

393

Am I thinking about my last meeting or

what I'm having for dinner tonight or

394

the problems of the world around me?

395

So.

396

Carol, I've often said it would be

really great if senior executives would

397

meditate before they start a meeting.

398

I think that if that's a bit much

for a lot of people, I think a lot

399

of people don't find meditation as

something that's accessible to them.

400

But is that what we're saying here?

401

Like should we see boardrooms meditating?

402

Carol Kondo: The truth, Jeff, is if we

said something like that, I don't think

403

we'd have a lot of clients coming our way

because you need to be in relationship

404

with the sounds of the waterfall and

the gong and all those things, and

405

I don't think we're quite there yet.

406

For some boardrooms that can work, but

for the majority, what we're really.

407

Off the mind.

408

And when we talk about the clearing, we

do appreciate and accept that we have

409

people that are in hospital, we have

kids that are dealing with hard stuff.

410

We have depression, we have all those real

life hard things that we're working with.

411

But how do we hold space and notice

what we're feeling and still be present?

412

And I think there's something about asking

ourselves as we get into these boardrooms,

413

what is it that I'm holding that go.

414

Possibly distract me and naming that

and saying, okay, I have the cat.

415

I have the child at school.

416

Alright, is there anything that I

can do in the next 45 minutes that

417

would need me to step up in any way

and help or alleviate the situation?

418

If your answer is no, then.

419

Whatever is happening now can

wait for the next 45 minutes and

420

I'll deal with it afterwards.

421

That process is like a storm,

it clears the path for us.

422

It doesn't stop the distraction that

has happened around us or whatever

423

challenges, but we're aware of

what is in our field of play and

424

the things that might distract us.

425

And when you notice that happening, just

holding that into awareness is important.

426

Jeff Melnyk: I think a really practical

practice for that, is just a check-in

427

at the beginning of a session.

428

I know that boards and executives

wanna get down to business, but a

429

simple ritual of that clearing down.

430

So we'll often use things,

what are you bringing today?

431

What are you leaving behind?

432

Or like, what's your weather?

433

How's everyone doing right now?

434

Brings that into awareness in

the room and helps to calibrate

435

everyone into a greater sense.

436

Two minutes.

437

It does not need to take that long.

438

You wanna get down to business, but

get into business in the right way.

439

Okay?

440

Top tip number three.

441

Obviously you're in the middle of

collaboration, critical thinking, decision

442

making while you're around the table.

443

Our thoughts begin to wander.

444

I start to itch for the distraction.

445

I start to think about something else.

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I'm worried about what my team is doing.

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Whilst I've, taken this 45 minute moment

to be in a meeting with someone else, what

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do we do to bring us back into the room?

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Carol, when inevitably our distracted

mind will become outta focus, being

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in the moment with my colleagues.

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Carol Kondo: the biggest thing you can

do is actually appreciate and accept

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that your mind has begun to wander,

and once you notice yourself, the

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cheeseburger at movie, the next scene,

whatever the case may be, accepting

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that my mind has wandered and not

holding myself in contempt or guilt.

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Is the first step and just like getting

lost in real life practically, if

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you were getting lost, you wouldn't

keep walking aimlessly, you'd

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pause and trace your steps back.

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And it's the same thing

from a mental place as well.

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When you notice yourself wondering,

when you notice yourself thinking about

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things that you shouldn't be thinking

about in a meeting, it is for you to.

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To the room in a mental head space.

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And when you find yourself distracted

and you feel like I have to grab my

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phone, walk back into the room mentally

and do that without any judgment around,

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I got lost in my train of thought.

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Oh, I got distracted.

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We're human.

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It happens to us.

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What's important is

coming back into the room.

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Don't keep walking.

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Jeff Melnyk: I think , this again,

is a real practice, isn't it?

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In coaching skills.

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We learn active listening and

how important it is to be fully

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present for your client and

to be able to connect to them.

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And so we learn how to notice the

distractions and to sort of recalibrate

475

it and you sort of get into that

flow state of even just listening.

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I don't think this is something people

really learn a skill around, to notice.

477

How you're distracted and bring

yourself back is a real habit, former.

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So I like what you said there,

like, don't feel bad when you get

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distracted 'cause it's gonna happen.

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But cultivate a sense of

self-awareness to to continue to

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bring yourself back into the room.

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Tip number four, committing

to a practice in the group.

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So what we did in the story with the

group that put their phones in the

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drawer, we had to get their commitment

and buy-in to, to collaborate a

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little bit differently didn't we?

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I think the way that.

487

Executives meet, or creative teams meet

or boards meet, there's a commitment to

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that ritual and a way to doing that in

a way that gets us to the best outcomes.

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I'm not sure everybody makes those kind

of commitments when they set up a way of

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collaborating, when we work with clients,

we establish that commitment in that

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ritual, but why do we need the commitment?

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To collaborate differently,

Carol, and how do we sort of work

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with that commitment over time?

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I imagine we could set up a

commitment in one meeting.

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We're gonna collaborate together

this way and we'll just forget

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about that the next time.

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Carol Kondo: If you're quite right.

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There is something about the commitment,

but I think more than anything else,

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one of the biggest things that we

did with them, the previous group,

500

was we helped them understand why I.

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Not use phones in the session.

502

And when people understand the why, it

doesn't have the parent-child dynamic

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where like, I'm taking your phones

away from you, but this is what happens

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when you have your phone next to you.

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This is the kind of thinking

that you have in the room.

506

This is the joy that you would get

and this is how well you'd contribute.

507

And when people understand why

it's easier for them to put.

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Their commitments on

something they understand.

509

And once you can get your team

committed to the fact that the quality

510

of thinking in this room will be

so high, we'll use half the meeting

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time because everyone is present.

512

We'll get better outcomes and we'll

actually have our best thinking yet.

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That is so important in bringing your team

and creating buy-in, and also normalizing

514

the fact that this is something we do.

515

Here in our organization, these

are the benefits and normalizing

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that sometimes we might get

distracted and that creates safety.

517

So creating environments where

people understand why they're doing

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things, the impact of the things

that they're doing and what they

519

will get outta it is so important.

520

I

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Jeff Melnyk: think what's coming up for me

when you say that is leaders really want

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a culture of performance, but I wonder

if they established more of a culture of

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presence worked with at source, what leads

to better performance rather than trying

524

to just demand outcomes all the time.

525

I wonder what would happen.

526

I wonder what the, the business

performance would look like.

527

And I wonder what the quality of the

employee experience would be like.

528

'cause if I'm more present in what

I'm doing, I'm going to be more

529

connected to the purpose and the impact

of what I've been working towards.

530

And that is gonna give me a

much better experience of work.

531

And I'm just, I think that we, I think

leaders have maybe gotten it wrong.

532

They're demanding outcomes rather than.

533

I think leaders have got it wrong.

534

I think they've been demanding outcomes

instead of creating the conditions for

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people to be their best performer at work.

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Carol Kondo: Totally.

537

Jeff.

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Stepping into a room knowing we

haven't done our best thinking yet.

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Our best thinking is yet to come.

540

I think that gives a group

something to look forward to.

541

You know, when we come together, great

thoughts are thought in this room.

542

Mighty men and women or whatever

are gathered in this room, and

543

the thoughts that are in this

room are quality thoughts.

544

Was well thought out half of

the time with people in meetings

545

saying, please say that again.

546

I kind of missed that.

547

And once someone says, I kind of

missed that, you know, that they

548

were walking in their mind and

they were walking off the grid.

549

So to prevent that, you know, let's

bring people in, let's encourage them

550

to really, really step into being

here right now and unleashing their

551

own potential, therefore, performing

to the best of their capabilities.

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Jeff Melnyk: Carol, as

always, the wisdom flows.

553

Four tips that I hope leaders

can take away from this.

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Thank you.

555

Always a pleasure to get you into

the studio and a very present

556

40 minute conversation with you.

557

Carol Kondo: Always enjoy, chef.

558

I look forward to our next one.

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Jeff Melnyk: Thanks for

listening, everyone.

560

Tune into our podcast every other week

for more episodes on what's happening

561

in the culture and leadership space.

562

What's on the mind of the leaders

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563

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564

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