Tanner Weyland:

Hello and welcome to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. My name is Tanner Weyland and I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi.

Justin:

Hi there.

Tanner Weyland:

Well, everyone, we are so happy to be together. As you know, Justin with his new baby, we haven't had as much of a chance to record. How's it been, Justin?

Justin:

Honestly, having a baby is easier and harder, much harder than I thought, right? It's just, it's crazy. The effect. Honestly, if that doesn't tell you what you need

Tanner Weyland:

I'm

Justin:

to know about

Tanner Weyland:

sorry.

Justin:

having a baby, then I don't know what would.

Tanner Weyland:

Exactly. I love that though that Jan was timed perfectly.

Justin:

Seriously.

Tanner Weyland:

Either way, we're super happy to have you back and just to be recording again. Let's let's hop into a fun little topic, kind of a creativity focused topic about how to make a campaign that is focused on going on an expedition. namely what makes an expedition-based campaign different from a normal campaign. Now, Justin, have you ever seen any movies that come to mind of an expedition or a journey or something like that?

Justin:

Absolutely. There are many, many out there. And just to give you kind of an idea of sort of the breadth that you can go when you think of Expedition, there's Atlantis, the Disney animated movie, which is a hidden treasure, I'd say. I would love to play a D&D campaign in that world. That would be so fun. And on the other hand, there's Alien versus Predator. Both of those are expeditions right but obviously there's twists and turns along the way

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, exactly. You know, I think. I think it's such an important story format for movies especially, but for D&D there's so many great things that you can do with it. Many D&D campaigns, like longer running campaigns, kind of take the form of an expedition or they can, but I think that there are specific things that you can do that can kind of set it apart and offer a new type of experience. to players. But you know, I think that our greatest teacher of what makes an expedition different from a normal campaign is Dora the Explorer, if we're being honest.

Justin:

Yeah.

Tanner Weyland:

I just I was thinking about it earlier and I was like actually she's like the kind of format of her thing of like, oh we need something we're going to go through this dark tunnel around the mountain, you know, for anyone who isn't from the US, Door of the Explorer is this cartoon that, you know, was supposed to teach, you know, English speaking. Children about how to speak Spanish, right? It was mostly in English But you know she'd have teach some Spanish phrases and the kind of the whole thing was like, oh she needed an object In order to get the object she would find the map in her backpack Look at it. It'd be like oh you do these go past these three places with their own challenges And then you reach the thing that you're trying to get and that's kind of I think that can really be a good benchmark for what makes an expedition different.

Justin:

Yeah, it's kind of the idea of... Well, and I guess we need to be careful when talking about expedition because it could be easy to think, oh, well, that's just the hero's journey, right? Because the hero is supposed to, you know, theoretically go on this quest. But generally expeditions have sort of a different feel, right? With the hero's journey... there's the quest, but I feel like the expedition, one of the biggest parts of the expedition is the travel. Right? It's the idea that we, like the quest is to travel, you know, to go there, to get there. And I think you're right exactly in that Dora the Explorer, every episode, well I haven't watched it in a while, so

Tanner Weyland:

Hahaha.

Justin:

I don't know exactly every episode, but you know, she's always calling for the map, right? Which... tells you kind of the steps to get there, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, exactly. Like I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. An expedition is different in the way that the journey is kind of the main thing you're focusing on. And we're not saying this in a, you know, philosophical like, oh, find joy in the journey thing that we're

Justin:

Friendship

Tanner Weyland:

saying that literally.

Justin:

was the treasure all along.

Tanner Weyland:

Exactly. You know, I think that that's I don't want you to think well, duh, Tanner, everything's about the journey. No, I'm saying the X and expedition type campaign should be about the journey. It's about getting there. And it's about the things that you kind of carry through throughout the journey, right? Like to hop into it about like some specifics. I think that I think another thing that we could look at that's honestly analogous to Dory the Explorer is Indiana Jones. And if you kind of compare these two examples, you find out a few things that really, I've seen in a lot of D&D expedition campaigns that really work. Now first, I would say that it's very important that in an expedition, that in an expedition campaign, you emphasize time and resources. Now, by this I mean like usually and I do this too. DMs, we will kind of retcon or hand wave using rations from day to day or food or anything like that, right? And even like, oh man, it's really cold outside because it's winter. You know, we'll do flavor snow or flavor sun, if that makes sense, where we're like, oh, the sun's in the sky and it's hot. But then you just go into the inn and you're fine or oh, man, it's just it's pouring rain out there. Luckily, you're near your house or you go back inside with an expedition. You actually take these mundane elements and you're like, hey, roll skill checks, it's freezing outside. or man the rain has gotten really hard and there's a mudslide on the road that you're on you know and you kind of make the journey have traps you make the journey have enemies you make the journey have items in a way that usually you might reserve for just like a dungeon you know

Justin:

Absolutely. And in bringing that up, I think it's important to talk about two things. One is you can make an expedition, sorry, my kid's crying in the other room, but you can make an expedition campaign, not be an expedition campaign, right? So what do I mean by that? In my current campaign, right? The party entered the Astral Sea to get to, well, in my campaign, the Astral Sea is basically treasure planet rules, right? Where every

Tanner Weyland:

classic.

Justin:

plane is, yeah, super fun, every plane is a different planet and you can get there on basically, you know, spaceships. And they are trying to get to this far off planet to rescue some friends of one of the party members who have become slaves, right? So theoretically, that could be an expedition, right? Somehow, I made it not an expedition, right? And I think part of it was, I definitely forgot that you have very cool touristy spots, like we kinda talked about, it's this journey. But I think I also fell into the main trap of expedition-type stories in that I made it a slog. right? There's one side where you have to keep track of rations and you know you keep track of the days you're traveling and there's the other side where you're essentially playing you know Oregon Trail where every day is very similar right? Like you sort of run out of things to do every day and I think it might be good for us to talk about ways to make it so it isn't so much of a slog but you still incorporate some of those really interesting mechanics like, hey, it's been snowing every day, are you gonna get a point of exhaustion today, right? Or what can you do around that? So I think that might be something we should talk about too.

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, I totally agree. Cause cause I've noticed that too, where it's like, hey, you might get excited as a DM about this concept of like, oh my goodness, I'm going to have him roll for survival in a real way, you know, uh,

Justin:

I'm gonna go.

Tanner Weyland:

the ranger is going to just hit his peak in this campaign because you know, we're going to be out in nature, but that can get really boring because it's one thing to be like, oh my goodness, a monster like breathes ice breath on you. You know, uh, roll this kind of check, right? Um, that's very different from like, oh, hey, you've been a cold for the past few days, roll a check to see if you get, uh, hypothermia or something, right? Uh, that if, cause like a monster is very exciting and it's very immediate. Uh, weather is not. And so I think that a few ways that you can do this is, you know, having limits and stating those kind of like. Limits to the players in a way that they can understand like being like, oh my goodness You see that the map you are halfway through this region. That's very snowy You still have another half What's your plan, you know and giving them specific things? consequences, but maybe even more specifically giving them like Explicit goals like being like if you do not find shelter you're going to have, I'm going to roll a thing and if you fit and if it passes, you lose a finger. Right? If you give certain things like that, that it's like time barred, it's not just a consistent thing. It's like, it's one event that you're being explicit about, but it has a consequence and it has a specific goal that you are giving them. I think that can add some good direction that will kind of make it less of a slog. If that makes sense.

Justin:

Oh yeah, I think you're exactly right. And another thing that you were, you were saying that really kind of triggered on me, maybe one of like the biggest keys of the expedition is the map, right? And normally it's, it's a multi-staged map, right? It's a, it's a treasure map where, you know, take 15 paces to this landmark and then do something else rather than go into the astral seat and then go to this planet, right? Like my, my case. uh, and with those sort of maps where it's like, uh, and then the map doesn't always necessarily need to be clear, right? But it does take you from point A to B to C to D to E to F, which is where you actually want to go all along the way. Those points are points of interest. And at that point, it becomes a lot easier to do every single day or do like what a lot of movies do and do sort of montages, right? where, you

Tanner Weyland:

Yes.

Justin:

know, for the next two or three days, you guys are walking through the snowstorm and, you know, behind the scenes, you can roll whatever you want and decide, oh, a storm hit. And guess what? Like Tanner said, you guys have to find shelter in the next half hour, or each of you are losing something that's attached to your body. And I think, you know, that makes it a little bit more manageable, even for the DM, because you know, all you have to worry about is this stretch. and then this stretch and then this stretch, right? And it's, I know we talk a lot about railroading a lot on the show.

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

It's railroading, except you're not railroading because they're railroading themselves, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah. And that's the thing. In Expedition, I think you have a little bit more license to Railroad because you're kind of being like, hey, I'm taking you on a literal journey. Come along with me. You know, so that kind of. brings us to another part of this that it's like, hey, if you're going to do an expedition type campaign, you're going to want some interesting spots along the way, right? Yeah, you want the journey to be interesting, but you want some specific spots that fulfill a couple of things. One, they show a change of pace, right? So it's not always going to be a city, you know, and it's not always going to be a dungeon. It's going to be a little peppering of each, right? And sometimes it's just going to be a little oasis, right? an oasis where it's like, oh. monster attacks them or You know or a trap or they find a little tunnel like at the bottom At the very center of the oasis of the pool that if they dive down into there's a treasure chest or something You know you want highlights along the way almost like tourist spots That stand out right much like you would in your if you were to go on an expedition I say in quote marks because like The most the closest anyone gets to an expedition now nowadays is going on vacation. But you have, like the travel is interesting, but it's less interesting if you're not going between interesting spots, you know?

Justin:

Absolutely. And even on that note, I would say the very last place has to be like the most interesting or the most desirable or something like that, right? Like, you know, it's the Holy Grail, you know, that you have to get at the end of the challenges, right? Or it's treasure planet, right? Which could theoretically be considered an expedition.

Tanner Weyland:

Oh yeah,

Justin:

So.

Tanner Weyland:

totally.

Justin:

You definitely want to bake that into the story. Whether you tell your party members everything, it's up to you, but they need to have some sort of large motivation to get there. And because of that, because there's often this large motivation to get there, there will often be reasons for others to try and get there as well. And

Tanner Weyland:

Yes.

Justin:

you know... in expeditions, I think one constant has to be danger, right? And the

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

unknown, right? You know, thinking about Jumanji, like the latest Jumanji movies where they're in a video game, right? That's sort of an expedition because they're going from point to point to point trying to do certain things and the goal

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

is to get out of the game. There's always this nemesis that kind of wants the opposite of what they want, but there's also like sort of environmental danger. And so You never know if when you get to point B, you're gonna see the nemesis or it's just gonna be like a sandstorm, right?

Tanner Weyland:

Exactly, you know, because you kind of need... that consistent sense of danger, but sometimes you want it to be a specific type of danger that's following, right? Because I mean, isn't that more interesting storytelling, right? If at the start of your quest, like the town mayor or a dying scholar is like, oh my goodness, you have to get the book of such and such before they do. And then suddenly you have someone that you're chasing or who's chasing you or that you're goal right and that's just great storytelling and it and it allows for interesting run ins along the way going back to door of the Explorer it's exactly like swiper you know Swiper

Justin:

Absolutely.

Tanner Weyland:

no swiping. Once again, for people who don't know about Dora the Explorer, every episode she ran into a specific fox with a thieves bandana, something like that, but over its eyes. And it would try and steal something from Dora. And you see that in Indiana Jones, where it's like, oh, the Nazi that he runs into at the very start that follows and chases him throughout the whole thing, right?

Justin:

callbacks.

Tanner Weyland:

And I think that that's not accidental. It's not because they're like, oh, what do we do? I guess we do this. It's like, no, that adds tension and it adds conflict and also makes a reason for your players to hurry, which can't be overstated because with an expedition, players could be slow about it and you want to have a sense of urgency to be like, hey, the other people are on their way too. They might be ahead of you. Can you really afford to rest?

Justin:

Yeah, yeah. And we're coming down to the end of today's episode. I think it would be really cool if we gave sort of like an off the hip, off the cuff, I guess, example of like some sort of expedition you could do in a D&D setting, right? Like we just make it up on the spot. I can go first if you want.

Tanner Weyland:

Yeah, go ahead.

Justin:

You know, let's say in this world, one of the gods has just decided to retire, right? And so he's literally... giving his godhood up to the first, you know, whoever can get to his house. His house happens to be inside a pocket dimension, and he's placed portals all over the world, right? And he's told

Tanner Weyland:

Mm-hmm.

Justin:

you if you can get to this portal, and then he probably says some riddles, so once you get to the portal, you enter the pocket dimension, have to travel through his realm, get to his house. The twist at the end would probably be that he's not actually looking to... um, like give up his godhood. He's probably trying to root out his biggest competitors. So he, you know, he kills people who probably could kill him or something like that. Or, you know, he does give it up. Anyways, that's one quick example because in that you and your party would probably make it to a portal, come out the other side and see a rival party doing the same thing and realize, okay, this is a race for time. But then you also realize that you're not exactly there yet and so forth. So that was just when I came up.

Tanner Weyland:

Okay, I've got one and it's kind of, I would say that it would start with the players going to an old abandoned church. So also religious, but in

Justin:

I

Tanner Weyland:

a

Justin:

love

Tanner Weyland:

different

Justin:

it.

Tanner Weyland:

way. And within that church, they find a group of, you know, common bandits who have come to get an ancient relic that was hidden in the kind of basement beneath the basement. The one that people didn't know about. and the players fight them off because they're like, oh, we were asked by the local clergymen to check out who's defiling this old church, you know, this abandoned church. And they do that. And then they find that the bandits had found this ancient, like, withered looking like staff that was made of wood, but it had like interesting carvings on it. And then they hear like from the bandits, like the bandits saying that they were had to deliver it to, you know, so and so. Right. And then they find clues on the staff and they go back to the clergy who signed them and they were like, oh, this is the staff of, you know, Yggdrasil or something. Right. That, you know, the world tree and it has writing that can actually lead you there. And then that goes on the journey, you know, where they take the staff. They have to go to the druids forest. To get some you know knowledge there and then the druids are like oh we could help you But this kind of info was in our library at So and so and then you go there and then the library actually has the info and then you go to...

[Tanner Weyland]: Hello and welcome to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent.

[Tanner Weyland]: My name is Tanner Weyland and I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi.

[Justin]: Hi there.

[Tanner Weyland]: Well, everyone, we are so happy to be together. As you know, Justin with

[Tanner Weyland]: his new baby, we haven't had as much of a chance to record. How's it been,

[Tanner Weyland]: Justin?

[Justin]: Honestly, having a baby is easier and harder, much harder than I thought, right?

[Justin]: It's just, it's crazy. The effect. Honestly, if that doesn't tell you what you

[Justin]: need

[Tanner Weyland]: I'm

[Justin]: to know about

[Tanner Weyland]: sorry.

[Justin]: having a baby, then I don't know what would.

[Tanner Weyland]: Exactly. I love that though that Jan was timed perfectly.

[Justin]: Seriously.

[Tanner Weyland]: Either way, we're super happy to have you back and just to be recording again.

[Tanner Weyland]: Let's let's hop into a fun little topic, kind of a creativity focused

[Tanner Weyland]: topic about how to make a campaign that is focused on going on an expedition.

[Tanner Weyland]: namely what makes an expedition-based campaign different from a normal campaign.

[Tanner Weyland]: Now, Justin, have you ever seen any movies that come to mind of an expedition

[Tanner Weyland]: or a journey or something like that?

[Justin]: Absolutely. There are many, many out there. And just to give you kind of an idea

[Justin]: of sort of the breadth that you can go when you think of Expedition, there's Atlantis,

[Justin]: the Disney animated movie, which is a hidden treasure, I'd say. I would love to

[Justin]: play a D&D campaign in that world. That would be so fun. And on the other hand,

[Justin]: there's Alien versus Predator. Both of those are expeditions right but obviously

[Justin]: there's twists and turns along the way

[Tanner Weyland]: Yeah, exactly. You know, I think. I think it's such an important story

[Tanner Weyland]: format for movies especially, but for D&D there's so many great things that

[Tanner Weyland]: you can do with it. Many D&D campaigns, like longer running campaigns, kind

[Tanner Weyland]: of take the form of an expedition or they can, but I think that there are specific

[Tanner Weyland]: things that you can do that can kind of set it apart and offer a new type

[Tanner Weyland]: of experience. to players. But you know, I think that our greatest teacher

[Tanner Weyland]: of what makes an expedition different from a normal campaign is Dora the

[Tanner Weyland]: Explorer, if we're being honest.

[Justin]: Yeah.

[Tanner Weyland]: I just I was thinking about it earlier and I was like actually she's like

[Tanner Weyland]: the kind of format of her thing of like, oh we need something we're going

[Tanner Weyland]: to go through this dark tunnel around the mountain, you know, for anyone who

[Tanner Weyland]: isn't from the US, Door of the Explorer is this cartoon that, you know,

[Tanner Weyland]: was supposed to teach, you know, English speaking. Children about how

[Tanner Weyland]: to speak Spanish, right? It was mostly in English But you know she'd have

[Tanner Weyland]: teach some Spanish phrases and the kind of the whole thing was like, oh

[Tanner Weyland]: she needed an object In order to get the object she would find the map in

[Tanner Weyland]: her backpack Look at it. It'd be like oh you do these go past these three

[Tanner Weyland]: places with their own challenges And then you reach the thing that you're trying

[Tanner Weyland]: to get and that's kind of I think that can really be a good benchmark

[Tanner Weyland]: for what makes an expedition different.

[Justin]: Yeah, it's kind of the idea of... Well, and I guess we need to be careful when

[Justin]: talking about expedition because it could be easy to think, oh, well, that's just

[Justin]: the hero's journey, right? Because the hero is supposed to, you know, theoretically

[Justin]: go on this quest. But generally expeditions have sort of a different feel, right? With

[Justin]: the hero's journey... there's the quest, but I feel like the expedition, one

[Justin]: of the biggest parts of the expedition is the travel. Right? It's the idea that we,

[Justin]: like the quest is to travel, you know, to go there, to get there. And I think you're

[Justin]: right exactly in that Dora the Explorer, every episode, well I haven't watched it in

[Justin]: a while, so

[Tanner Weyland]: Hahaha.

[Justin]: I don't know exactly every episode, but you know, she's always calling for the

[Justin]: map, right? Which... tells you kind of the steps to get there, right?

[Tanner Weyland]: Yeah, exactly. Like I think you kind of hit the nail on the head. An expedition

[Tanner Weyland]: is different in the way that the journey is kind of the main thing you're

[Tanner Weyland]: focusing on. And we're not saying this in a, you know, philosophical like,

[Tanner Weyland]: oh, find joy in the journey thing that we're

[Justin]: Friendship

[Tanner Weyland]: saying that literally.

[Justin]: was the treasure all along.

[Tanner Weyland]: Exactly. You know, I think that that's I don't want you to think well,

[Tanner Weyland]: duh, Tanner, everything's about the journey. No, I'm saying the X and

[Tanner Weyland]: expedition type campaign should be about the journey. It's about getting there.

[Tanner Weyland]: And it's about the things that you kind of carry through throughout the

[Tanner Weyland]: journey, right? Like to hop into it about like some specifics. I think

[Tanner Weyland]: that I think another thing that we could look at that's honestly analogous

[Tanner Weyland]: to Dory the Explorer is Indiana Jones. And if you kind of compare these two

[Tanner Weyland]: examples, you find out a few things that really, I've seen in a lot of D&D

[Tanner Weyland]: expedition campaigns that really work. Now first, I would say that it's

[Tanner Weyland]: very important that in an expedition, that in an expedition campaign,

[Tanner Weyland]: you emphasize time and resources. Now, by this I mean like usually and I do this

[Tanner Weyland]: too. DMs, we will kind of retcon or hand wave using rations from day

[Tanner Weyland]: to day or food or anything like that, right? And even like, oh man, it's

[Tanner Weyland]: really cold outside because it's winter. You know, we'll do flavor snow

[Tanner Weyland]: or flavor sun, if that makes sense, where we're like, oh, the sun's in the

[Tanner Weyland]: sky and it's hot. But then you just go into the inn and you're fine or

[Tanner Weyland]: oh, man, it's just it's pouring rain out there. Luckily, you're near your house

[Tanner Weyland]: or you go back inside with an expedition. You actually take these mundane

[Tanner Weyland]: elements and you're like, hey, roll skill checks, it's freezing outside.

[Tanner Weyland]: or man the rain has gotten really hard and there's a mudslide on the road

[Tanner Weyland]: that you're on you know and you kind of make the journey have traps you

[Tanner Weyland]: make the journey have enemies you make the journey have items in a way that

[Tanner Weyland]: usually you might reserve for just like a dungeon you know

[Justin]: Absolutely. And in bringing that up, I think it's important to talk about two things.

[Justin]: One is you can make an expedition, sorry, my kid's crying in the other room, but

[Justin]: you can make an expedition campaign, not be an expedition campaign, right? So what

[Justin]: do I mean by that? In my current campaign, right? The party entered the Astral Sea to

[Justin]: get to, well, in my campaign, the Astral Sea is basically treasure planet rules,

[Justin]: right? Where every

[Tanner Weyland]: classic.

[Justin]: plane is, yeah, super fun, every plane is a different planet and you can get there

[Justin]: on basically, you know, spaceships. And they are trying to get to this far off

[Justin]: planet to rescue some friends of one of the party members who have become slaves,

[Justin]: right? So theoretically, that could be an expedition, right? Somehow, I made it

[Justin]: not an expedition, right? And I think part of it was, I definitely forgot that you

[Justin]: have very cool touristy spots, like we kinda talked about, it's this journey. But

[Justin]: I think I also fell into the main trap of expedition-type stories in that I made

[Justin]: it a slog. right? There's one side where you have to keep track of rations and

[Justin]: you know you keep track of the days you're traveling and there's the other side

[Justin]: where you're essentially playing you know Oregon Trail where every day is very similar

[Justin]: right? Like you sort of run out of things to do every day and I think it might

[Justin]: be good for us to talk about ways to make it so it isn't so much of a slog but

[Justin]: you still incorporate some of those really interesting mechanics like, hey, it's

[Justin]: been snowing every day, are you gonna get a point of exhaustion today, right? Or

[Justin]: what can you do around that? So I think that might be something we should talk

[Justin]: about too.

[Tanner Weyland]: Yeah, I totally agree. Cause cause I've noticed that too, where it's like,

[Tanner Weyland]: hey, you might get excited as a DM about this concept of like, oh my goodness,

[Tanner Weyland]: I'm going to have him roll for survival in a real way, you know, uh,

[Justin]: I'm gonna go.

[Tanner Weyland]: the ranger is going to just hit his peak in this campaign because you know,

[Tanner Weyland]: we're going to be out in nature, but that can get really boring because it's

[Tanner Weyland]: one thing to be like, oh my goodness, a monster like breathes ice breath

[Tanner Weyland]: on you. You know, uh, roll this kind of check, right? Um, that's very

[Tanner Weyland]: different from like, oh, hey, you've been a cold for the past few days, roll

[Tanner Weyland]: a check to see if you get, uh, hypothermia or something, right? Uh, that

[Tanner Weyland]: if, cause like a monster is very exciting and it's very immediate. Uh,

[Tanner Weyland]: weather is not. And so I think that a few ways that you can do this is, you

[Tanner Weyland]: know, having limits and stating those kind of like. Limits to the players in

[Tanner Weyland]: a way that they can understand like being like, oh my goodness You see that

[Tanner Weyland]: the map you are halfway through this region. That's very snowy You still have

[Tanner Weyland]: another half What's your plan, you know and giving them specific things? consequences,

[Tanner Weyland]: but maybe even more specifically giving them like Explicit goals like being

[Tanner Weyland]: like if you do not find shelter you're going to have, I'm going to roll a thing

[Tanner Weyland]: and if you fit and if it passes, you lose a finger. Right? If you give certain

[Tanner Weyland]: things like that, that it's like time barred, it's not just a consistent

[Tanner Weyland]: thing. It's like, it's one event that you're being explicit about, but

[Tanner Weyland]: it has a consequence and it has a specific goal that you are giving them.

[Tanner Weyland]: I think that can add some good direction that will kind of make it less

[Tanner Weyland]: of a slog. If that makes sense.

[Justin]: Oh yeah, I think you're exactly right. And another thing that you were, you were saying

[Justin]: that really kind of triggered on me, maybe one of like the biggest keys of the expedition

[Justin]: is the map, right? And normally it's, it's a multi-staged map, right? It's a, it's

[Justin]: a treasure map where, you know, take 15 paces to this landmark and then do something

[Justin]: else rather than go into the astral seat and then go to this planet, right? Like

[Justin]: my, my case. uh, and with those sort of maps where it's like, uh, and then the map

[Justin]: doesn't always necessarily need to be clear, right? But it does take you from

[Justin]: point A to B to C to D to E to F, which is where you actually want to go all

[Justin]: along the way. Those points are points of interest. And at that point, it becomes

[Justin]: a lot easier to do every single day or do like what a lot of movies do and do sort

[Justin]: of montages, right? where, you

[Tanner Weyland]: Yes.

[Justin]: know, for the next two or three days, you guys are walking through the snowstorm

[Justin]: and, you know, behind the scenes, you can roll whatever you want and decide,

[Justin]: oh, a storm hit. And guess what? Like Tanner said, you guys have to find shelter

[Justin]: in the next half hour, or each of you are losing something that's attached to

[Justin]: your body. And I think, you know, that makes it a little bit more manageable,

[Justin]: even for the DM, because you know, all you have to worry about is this stretch.

[Justin]: and then this stretch and then this stretch, right? And it's, I know we talk a

[Justin]: lot about railroading a lot on the show.

[Tanner Weyland]: Mm-hmm.

[Justin]: It's railroading, except you're not railroading because they're railroading themselves,

[Justin]: right?

[Tanner Weyland]: Yeah. And that's the thing. In Expedition, I think you have a little bit

[Tanner Weyland]: more license to Railroad because you're kind of being like, hey, I'm taking

[Tanner Weyland]: you on a literal journey. Come along with me. You know, so that kind

[Tanner Weyland]: of. brings us to another part of this that it's like, hey, if you're going

[Tanner Weyland]: to do an expedition type campaign, you're going to want some interesting spots

[Tanner Weyland]: along the way, right? Yeah, you want the journey to be interesting, but

[Tanner Weyland]: you want some specific spots that fulfill a couple of things. One, they

[Tanner Weyland]: show a change of pace, right? So it's not always going to be a city, you

[Tanner Weyland]: know, and it's not always going to be a dungeon. It's going to be a little

[Tanner Weyland]: peppering of each, right? And sometimes it's just going to be a little

[Tanner Weyland]: oasis, right? an oasis where it's like, oh. monster attacks them or You

[Tanner Weyland]: know or a trap or they find a little tunnel like at the bottom At the very

[Tanner Weyland]: center of the oasis of the pool that if they dive down into there's a

[Tanner Weyland]: treasure chest or something You know you want highlights along the way

[Tanner Weyland]: almost like tourist spots That stand out right much like you would in

[Tanner Weyland]: your if you were to go on an expedition I say in quote marks because

[Tanner Weyland]: like The most the closest anyone gets to an expedition now nowadays is

[Tanner Weyland]: going on vacation. But you have, like the travel is interesting, but it's

[Tanner Weyland]: less interesting if you're not going between interesting spots, you know?

[Justin]: Absolutely. And even on that note, I would say the very last place has to be like

[Justin]: the most interesting or the most desirable or something like that, right? Like, you know,

[Justin]: it's the Holy Grail, you know, that you have to get at the end of the challenges,

[Justin]: right? Or it's treasure planet, right? Which could theoretically be considered an

[Justin]: expedition.

[Tanner Weyland]: Oh yeah,

[Justin]: So.

[Tanner Weyland]: totally.

[Justin]: You definitely want to bake that into the story.

[Justin]: Whether you tell your party members everything, it's up to you, but they need to

[Justin]: have some sort of large motivation to get there. And because of that, because

[Justin]: there's often this large motivation to get there, there will often be reasons for

[Justin]: others to try and get there as well. And

[Tanner Weyland]: Yes.

[Justin]: you know... in expeditions, I think one constant has to be danger, right? And the

[Tanner Weyland]: Mm-hmm.

[Justin]: unknown, right? You know, thinking about Jumanji, like the latest Jumanji movies

[Justin]: where they're in a video game, right? That's sort of an expedition because they're

[Justin]: going from point to point to point trying to do certain things and the goal

[Tanner Weyland]: Mm-hmm.

[Justin]: is to get out of the game. There's always this nemesis that kind of wants the

[Justin]: opposite of what they want, but there's also like sort of environmental danger. And

[Justin]: so You never know if when you get to point B, you're gonna see the nemesis or

[Justin]: it's just gonna be like a sandstorm, right?

[Tanner Weyland]: Exactly, you know, because you kind of need... that consistent sense of

[Tanner Weyland]: danger, but sometimes you want it to be a specific type of danger that's

[Tanner Weyland]: following, right? Because I mean, isn't that more interesting storytelling,

[Tanner Weyland]: right? If at the start of your quest, like the town mayor or a dying

[Tanner Weyland]: scholar is like, oh my goodness, you have to get the book of such and such before

[Tanner Weyland]: they do. And then suddenly you have someone that you're chasing or who's

[Tanner Weyland]: chasing you or that you're goal right and that's just great storytelling

[Tanner Weyland]: and it and it allows for interesting run ins along the way going back to door of

[Tanner Weyland]: the Explorer it's exactly like swiper you know Swiper

[Justin]: Absolutely.

[Tanner Weyland]: no swiping. Once again, for people who don't know about Dora the Explorer,

[Tanner Weyland]: every episode she ran into a specific fox with a thieves bandana, something

[Tanner Weyland]: like that, but over its eyes. And it would try and steal something from Dora.

[Tanner Weyland]: And you see that in Indiana Jones, where it's like, oh, the Nazi that he

[Tanner Weyland]: runs into at the very start that follows and chases him throughout the

[Tanner Weyland]: whole thing, right?

[Justin]: callbacks.

[Tanner Weyland]: And I think that that's not accidental. It's not because they're like,

[Tanner Weyland]: oh, what do we do? I guess we do this. It's like, no, that adds tension

[Tanner Weyland]: and it adds conflict and also makes a reason for your players to hurry, which

[Tanner Weyland]: can't be overstated because with an expedition, players could be slow about

[Tanner Weyland]: it and you want to have a sense of urgency to be like, hey, the other

[Tanner Weyland]: people are on their way too. They might be ahead of you. Can you really

[Tanner Weyland]: afford to rest?

[Justin]: Yeah, yeah. And we're coming down to the end of today's episode. I think it would

[Justin]: be really cool if we gave sort of like an off the hip, off the cuff, I guess,

[Justin]: example of like some sort of expedition you could do in a D&D setting, right? Like

[Justin]: we just make it up on the spot. I can go first if you want.

[Tanner Weyland]: Yeah, go ahead.

[Justin]: You know, let's say in this world, one of the gods has just decided to retire,

[Justin]: right? And so he's literally... giving his godhood up to the first, you know, whoever

[Justin]: can get to his house. His house happens to be inside a pocket dimension, and he's placed

[Justin]: portals all over the world, right? And he's told

[Tanner Weyland]: Mm-hmm.

[Justin]: you if you can get to this portal, and then he probably says some riddles, so

[Justin]: once you get to the portal, you enter the pocket dimension, have to travel through

[Justin]: his realm, get to his house. The twist at the end would probably be that he's not

[Justin]: actually looking to... um, like give up his godhood. He's probably trying to root

[Justin]: out his biggest competitors. So he, you know, he kills people who probably could

[Justin]: kill him or something like that. Or, you know, he does give it up. Anyways, that's

[Justin]: one quick example because in that you and your party would probably make it to

[Justin]: a portal, come out the other side and see a rival party doing the same thing

[Justin]: and realize, okay, this is a race for time. But then you also realize that you're

[Justin]: not exactly there yet and so forth. So that was just when I came up.

[Tanner Weyland]: Okay, I've got one and it's kind of, I would say that it would start with

[Tanner Weyland]: the players going to an old abandoned church. So also religious, but in

[Justin]: I

[Tanner Weyland]: a

[Justin]: love

[Tanner Weyland]: different

[Justin]: it.

[Tanner Weyland]: way. And within that church, they find a group of, you know, common bandits

[Tanner Weyland]: who have come to get an ancient relic that was hidden in the kind of basement

[Tanner Weyland]: beneath the basement. The one that people didn't know about. and the

[Tanner Weyland]: players fight them off because they're like, oh, we were asked by the local

[Tanner Weyland]: clergymen to check out who's defiling this old church, you know, this abandoned

[Tanner Weyland]: church. And they do that. And then they find that the bandits had found

[Tanner Weyland]: this ancient, like, withered looking like staff that was made of wood, but

[Tanner Weyland]: it had like interesting carvings on it. And then they hear like from the bandits,

[Tanner Weyland]: like the bandits saying that they were had to deliver it to, you know, so

[Tanner Weyland]: and so. Right. And then they find clues on the staff and they go back to

[Tanner Weyland]: the clergy who signed them and they were like, oh, this is the staff of,

[Tanner Weyland]: you know, Yggdrasil or something. Right. That, you know, the world tree and it

[Tanner Weyland]: has writing that can actually lead you there. And then that goes on the journey,

[Tanner Weyland]: you know, where they take the staff. They have to go to the druids forest.

[Tanner Weyland]: To get some you know knowledge there and then the druids are like oh we could

[Tanner Weyland]: help you But this kind of info was in our library at So and so and then

[Tanner Weyland]: you go there and then the library actually has the info and then you

[Tanner Weyland]: go to the with the world tree Whatever it is. It kind of builds upon itself,

[Tanner Weyland]: you know

[Justin]: I love that. I love that.

[Tanner Weyland]: But anyway, yeah, I hope that you guys who are listening, you DMs really

[Tanner Weyland]: look into this because I think it's a very fun change of pace, especially

[Tanner Weyland]: if you've done a few campaigns or mini campaigns or one shots where it's just

[Tanner Weyland]: been confined to a city or a dungeon and it hasn't really, it's been kind

[Tanner Weyland]: of samey in terms of plot structure. I think an expedition would really

[Tanner Weyland]: make you and focus on slightly different things than normal. And you'll still

[Tanner Weyland]: get a lot of combat, you'll still get opportunities for role playing as

[Tanner Weyland]: you run into various NPCs. And I think you'll have a really great time.

[Tanner Weyland]: Any last thoughts, Justin?

[Justin]: Um, no, just that I think doing an expedition story is a really great opportunity

[Justin]: to paint pictures with your words, right? Uh, more than probably other stories,

[Justin]: the players are expecting to go to new places, sort of experience new things.

[Justin]: So when you do that, just let your imagination run wild, right? When they're going

[Justin]: through a forest, it doesn't have to look like our forests, right? The trees

[Tanner Weyland]: Yep.

[Justin]: could be covered in spikes that are actually super soft to the touch and kind of

[Justin]: make you feel really good for some reason. I don't know why. You know, why?

[Tanner Weyland]: Yes.

[Justin]: Why not?

[Tanner Weyland]: Exactly, you know, it's an opportunity. If you've ever seen a movie like

[Tanner Weyland]: that, like in Indiana Jones, or played a game that's been about expedition,

[Tanner Weyland]: like Uncharted or anything, you know that the locations and the things

[Tanner Weyland]: you see are just beautiful. And that's an opportunity for you as a DM to

[Tanner Weyland]: just kind of just mainline a bunch of, you know, cool locales in front

[Tanner Weyland]: of your players. And I think that is a really fun time. I hope you find

[Tanner Weyland]: an opportunity to do that in a campaign in the near future and until

[Tanner Weyland]: next time, let's roll initiative