Shownotes
SPECIAL EPISODE!
What actually happens when a book gets banned, and who pays the price for it?
Heather sits down with children's author and Whale Rock Workshops founder Sheri Becker to talk about why inclusive books matter for every kid on the shelf, not just the ones who see themselves in the story. Sheri pulls back the curtain on what it actually takes to write across difference, why publishers are quietly passing on great books before they're even banned, and what parents can do that actually moves the needle.
In this episode, you'll learn how to:
- Understand why books work as both windows and mirrors for kids, and why every bookshelf needs both
- Recognize what's really driving the current wave of book bans, and why it's nothing new
- Support authors, libraries, and publishers in concrete ways, from library requests to buying banned titles directly
Press play to learn why the fight over banned books is really a fight over which kids get to feel less alone.
Head over to Substack for a complete list of Shari's recommended books!
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At the heart of my work is a deep commitment to compassion, authenticity, and transformative allyship, especially for those navigating the complexities of parenting LGBTQ kids. Through this podcast, speaking, my writing, and the spaces I create, I help people unlearn bias, embrace their full humanity, and grow their capacity for courageous connection.
For parents, allies, and those pioneering a way to lead with love and kindness, I’m here with true, messy, and heartwarming stories, real tools, and grounding support to help you move from fear to fierce, informed action.
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More Human. More Kind. formerly Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen is a safe and supportive podcast in a heartfelt and empowering space where a mom and advocate offers the wisdom of lived experience and practical guidance and education to parents and allies, teaching empathy, kindness, love, and strong boundaries while supporting LGBTQ teens and the diverse LGBTQ community, including gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans, transgender, and queer individuals, through conversations about mental health, grief, gender identity, sexual orientation, human rights, social justice, parenting, parent support, and meaningful LGBTQ allyship and allyship in action.
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Transcripts
Good morning.
Speaker A:This is a special interview episode today that I am dropping talking with Sherry Becker about the importance of inclusive literature, as well as being really well informed and well educated on everything going on with book banning right now.
Speaker A:So enjoy.
Speaker A:Here you are.
Speaker A:Welcome to More Human, More Kind, the podcast for parents of LGBTQ kids and anyone trying to stay human in a world that keeps hardening.
Speaker A:I'm Heather Hester, and here we talk about fear, belonging, boundaries, courage, love, and what it means to protect what matters without losing yourself in the process.
Speaker A:Your child doesn't just need a parent who's informed.
Speaker A:They need a parent who is grounded and strong.
Speaker A:Let's take a breath and let's begin.
Speaker A:Welcome to More Human, More Kind.
Speaker A:I am Heather Hester, and today I have an absolute treat for you.
Speaker A:We are talking with Sheri Becker of Whale Rock Workshops, and we're going to talk about something that we've never really gotten into on the show, which is the actual writing of inclusive books.
Speaker A:And we have a lot of fun avenues that we're going to go down with this.
Speaker A:But I am thrilled to have you here, Sheri.
Speaker B:Oh, it's my pleasure to be here.
Speaker B:I'm so excited to chat with you.
Speaker A:Me too.
Speaker A:So let's just start right with who you are, what you do at Whale Rock, and kind of what brought you into this conversation.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So I'm a children's author.
Speaker B:I started my career many, many years ago.
Speaker B:I worked for Nickelodeon, I worked for Disney owned companies.
Speaker B:I was doing content, and I really wanted to get into writing.
Speaker B: ildren's writing in the early: Speaker B:I had my first book come out.
Speaker B:It wasn't sustainable for my family to just be a writer, so I started running workshops quite accidentally with this incredible children's author named Gary Schmidt and Patricia Lee Gouch, who is the former publisher and vice president of Philomel Books, which is a division of Putnam and Penguin.
Speaker B:We ran one event and everybody said, what are you doing next year?
Speaker B:And suddenly I was running a business that has grown.
Speaker B:So we run over 25 writing workshops a year.
Speaker B:They're all for all authors of children's books.
Speaker B:We do events that are in person, we do retreats, and we DO intensives and 90 minute workshops.
Speaker B:So they run the gamut.
Speaker B:So I'm here in my capacity as a writer, as a owner of a company about children's writing, and I'm also a part of a family that has a number of, I would say, young people from the LGBTQ community.
Speaker B:So I'm I'm immersed.
Speaker A:You are, you know, you know what you're talking about, both experientially and just.
Speaker A:So let's jump right into this because I think this is, as a.
Speaker A:As another writer talking about just really high level, the importance of inclusivity in writing and topics.
Speaker B:So I'm a huge believer that books.
Speaker B:Well, I will say two things.
Speaker B:Books are windows and mirrors, first of all, right?
Speaker B:Every child needs to be seen, and that's where they use books as mirrors.
Speaker B:I fell in love with writing because I was a really shy child.
Speaker B:I actually had a pretty big temper.
Speaker B:I had a lot of emotions.
Speaker B:I had trouble wrangling.
Speaker B:And I remember reading the Secret Garden.
Speaker B:But there was something about Mary Lennox finding this garden where she could create beauty and find friendship with animals and humans and.
Speaker B:And that so resonated with me.
Speaker B:And I just kept telling myself that I was gonna find my people and I was gonna find my place, because Mary did.
Speaker B:And so I think if we think about books in that way, every child needs to see themselves in books.
Speaker B:Either it's their personality, it's their race, it's their religion, it's an anxiety, it's a fear, it's the way their family dynamic is laid out.
Speaker B:At the same time, they are windows.
Speaker B:So I truly believe that every child should have a bookshelf filled with books written by people different from them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Kids need to see the world.
Speaker B:They need to see that a child on the other side of the world also has a birthday and they also have grandparents and they have family celebrations and that they both are sometimes afraid of the dark or they both have first crushes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so I'm a huge believer that this concept of windows and mirrors are what make children whole, better citizens of the world, kinder and gentler to each other.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I think that's such a beautiful way to talk about it and to have people think about it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I think that you named something really important there that, and you named it the context of a child.
Speaker A:But I think it really comes through for adults that fear, right?
Speaker A:That fear of what.
Speaker A:What is my child going to read in this book?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so I. I love the way that you.
Speaker A:You know, it really is just a way of.
Speaker A:Of seeing the diversity all around us and really learning to appreciate that at a very, very young age.
Speaker A:And then that is.
Speaker A:That is life, right?
Speaker A:Life is diverse totally.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And just allowing that.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, for even for a parent too, of kind of taking that moment to shift from like, oh, this is Scary to.
Speaker A:Oh, this is really interesting the way my child is seeing this book.
Speaker B:I mean, we went out of our way to make sure that our bookshelf was, you know, had.
Speaker B:Had preposterous things and funny things and sad things and happy things.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And again, if all of the books on your shelf are written by white authors, your child is not getting.
Speaker B:Your child is not getting a realistic understanding of all the people who make up the world.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:So when you named all of those emotions, I think that is something too, that we.
Speaker A:We don't think about is kids learn emotional intelligence not just through their parents and the people around them, but through the books that they read.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because books have such power to make you feel.
Speaker B:And sometimes, I mean, I'll just give you an example.
Speaker B:There's this incredible book right now called I'm sorry you got mad.
Speaker B:I think that's the name of the story, but it's about a kid who can't apologize for having done something wrong or I'm sorry I made you mad, but it is the funniest story about how hard it can be to apologize when you're a little kid and you've done something wrong.
Speaker B:And so you just keep saying, like, I'm sorry you got mad after what I did, you know, instead of saying, I'm sorry I messed up.
Speaker B:I'm sorry I spilled the Coke or the coffee.
Speaker B:I'm sorry I.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, I think that is.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:Yes, please do send that to me.
Speaker A:Because this was something that.
Speaker A:I mean, that goes into adulthood too.
Speaker A:When me.
Speaker A:My husband and I first met.
Speaker A:I mean, for years, he would.
Speaker A:His apology would be, I'm sorry if.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it was always like, I don't understand the problem here, but clearly you're upset.
Speaker A:So I'm supposed to say I'm sorry, But.
Speaker A:But it was, you know, it took so long to be like, no, you need to own it if I'm telling you I'm feeling this way.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So I think there's, like, a piece of that.
Speaker A:Like, if we can have our children learn this in a way that is so age appropriate, that feels like there's no shame involved.
Speaker A:There's no.
Speaker A:Like, it just is like, this is how human beings relate.
Speaker B:Totally.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For sure.
Speaker A:Okay, so we know, and I know the listener knows that.
Speaker A:That inclusive.
Speaker A:Having inclusive books is so important for our kids.
Speaker A:Let's talk for a few minutes about writing those books.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And how difficult it might be.
Speaker A:How.
Speaker A:I mean, you've named it a little bit, but I'd like to go into it a lot deeper.
Speaker A:As far as, you know, you and I would write from a straight white female's point of view, right?
Speaker A:Because that's what we are.
Speaker A:And so it'd be hard for us to write from another person's point of view that is, you know, a, a man or somebody who is black or somebody who is queer.
Speaker A:Like, I would have a very difficult time doing that.
Speaker A:So let's talk about, about this, about why this is important and how, how it is difficult to do.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So I think this is sort of like the million dollar question for a lot of writers because, you know, when I think about writing for children, I say I want to present a realistic world.
Speaker B:My kids grew up in a very diverse public school.
Speaker B:Their friends were black, Indian, straight, trans, queer.
Speaker B:We did not live in a straight white world.
Speaker B:And as a writer trying to depict that high school, I knew I had to capture the realities of their lives and the diversity of their communities.
Speaker B:But I also cannot climb into the body of someone who has a different lived experience than me.
Speaker B:So, I mean, I can tell you what I do.
Speaker B:I can tell you what some other writers do.
Speaker B:When I'm writing, I tend to make my protagonist white, straight sometimes.
Speaker B:I'm actually been leaning into.
Speaker B:I'm actually also Jewish, and I've been leaning into making them Jewish in a very secular way because I'm trying to think about what are the things that I know, what are my lived experiences?
Speaker B:Well, I always try to include secondary characters, friends, siblings who are different.
Speaker B:So in my novel, my character had a best friend who was Indian.
Speaker B:In the books that I'm writing now, actually, that is predominantly.
Speaker B:It's a middle school story set.
Speaker B:It's actually more about sexual harassment.
Speaker B:So it's a little bit different.
Speaker B:But, you know, I try to include characters and then what I do is I get sensitivity.
Speaker B:Readers, I have outside readers come and take a look at my writing.
Speaker B:I say, tell me what you think.
Speaker B:Did I capture it?
Speaker B:Did I not capture it?
Speaker B:I will tell you.
Speaker B:I had a fantasy that I was working on where I had this, this vision and this lore.
Speaker B:And I was trying to create this, this world.
Speaker B:And I had this character that I wasn't sure if the character was male or female or were they female trying to be male or male, feeling female.
Speaker B:And I tried to write it and I it to my daughter.
Speaker B:And she said, mom, I don't think you got this at all.
Speaker B:You know, she said, I think you got it through your lens, but I don't think you can do this.
Speaker B:And I don't even think you should bring in a sensitivity reader.
Speaker B:I think you need to change it.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:And so I shelved it, to be honest with you.
Speaker B:I just said I don't want to do it wrong because I'm not.
Speaker B:It's a disservice to do it improper.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, there are authors who do a great job of inclusivity.
Speaker B:It is, in my experience, it is often around queer romance.
Speaker B:So, for example, one of my favorite examples is Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo, which is a YA fantasy.
Speaker B:And it is totally.
Speaker B:It's a heist.
Speaker B:It's like a heist in a fantastical world, but two of the male characters fall in love and he does a fantastic job.
Speaker B:And she did this fantastic job of inclusivity in a romance.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So you're just.
Speaker B:You're kind of walking that fine line.
Speaker B:You're really leaning into your community too.
Speaker B:Resources, like, there are groups like, we need diverse books.
Speaker B:There are organizations that can help you find sensitivity readers for all different, you know, for physical disability, for mental health.
Speaker B:I have a book that I wrote about anxiety, and I suffer from anxiety.
Speaker B:And my agent even said, maybe we should get a sensitivity reader just to make sure that your experience with anxiety is the same as someone else's experience with anxiety.
Speaker B:So we're always trying to find the balance.
Speaker B:At the same time, we don't want to stop people from telling their true stories, from telling their experiential lived, you know, journeys.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:Well, and I think too, like, with that example that you just gave, not everyone's experience with anxiety is the same.
Speaker A:I mean, anxiety is a big, big word.
Speaker A:It's a big experience.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think there's so many factors that go into that.
Speaker A:So I would agree with you on that.
Speaker A:There's definitely some.
Speaker A:Some nuance there and some fine lines of.
Speaker A:And I will say too, I found this so interesting with my book.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:We had a sensitivity reader for it and I found the feedback so fascinating.
Speaker A:And now that I'm like two years out from it and I've kind of gone back and looked at things as I've been thinking about my next book and have been able to say, oh, like I.
Speaker A:Now I see better why they flagged that.
Speaker A:Now I see why the publisher flagged this, this particular, you know, whatever, didn't want to publish this or what.
Speaker A:So things have become more clear.
Speaker A:I still don't necessarily agree with us.
Speaker A:Yeah, no.
Speaker B:And it's also.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And sometimes you can disagree with the sensitivity reader on specific things.
Speaker B:You know, like, I. I would be really careful telling a sensitivity reader that I've captured a lived experience incorrectly.
Speaker B:You know, but if I personally have had a lived experience where I've had a conversation with someone and we've had some sort of disagreement or engagement, and a sensitivity reader says, oh, somebody would never say that.
Speaker B:I would say, like, well, no, actually, I had this conversation.
Speaker A:It is nuanced right there.
Speaker A:There's a lot there.
Speaker A:I want to shift a little bit from talking about the inclusivity specifically to talking.
Speaker A:You work with your students and people come do your workshop specifically on writing children's books?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Did you land on that because you at the time were writing children's books?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And what are the different topics that one would come to you to learn how to do better, to learn how to do well.
Speaker B:So it's funny.
Speaker B:Writing is like any art or any sport.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's like a lifelong practice.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If you're going to paint, you're just going to keep painting over and over again until you sort of master certain aspects.
Speaker B:The shadows, the colors, the depth, the symmetry, if that's what you want.
Speaker B:And I think with writing, it's very similar.
Speaker B:A lot of people, and I say this with love, a lot of people will say, like, oh, my gosh, it must be so easy to write a book for children.
Speaker B:You know, like a picture book.
Speaker B:Especially like, oh, I wrote a picture book.
Speaker B:Last night over dinner, I had this great idea.
Speaker B:And then you look it over and you go, oh, wow, good job.
Speaker B:That's wonderful.
Speaker B:But in your head.
Speaker A:In my head.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:You know, this isn't ready for what we would call submission.
Speaker B:So I would say people come for all different reasons for children's writing in particular.
Speaker B:And I think for all artists, I mean, I feel like a lot of artists are working through their own wounds, their own sensitivities, their own lived experiences.
Speaker B:For many of us, we have a story to tell that we want to share with another child.
Speaker B:I went through this, and I want you to know if you're going through this, that you're going to be okay, and I'm going to show it to you through my young adult novel or my middle grade novel or my picture book.
Speaker B:That's where it starts.
Speaker B:For a lot of children authors, the difference between children's literature and adult literature, which I think is important to note, is there's a tremendous amount of hope in children's literature.
Speaker B:We always sort of say that if you finish reading a middle grade book, even if it is about the most painful topic or a young adult book about the most painful topic, there will be a glimmer of hope at the end.
Speaker B:You are going to be okay.
Speaker B:You are going to go out to university.
Speaker B:You are going to have this great life.
Speaker B:Maybe you're not going to university, but.
Speaker A:You're going to leave your house.
Speaker B:If your house is not safe, if you've lost a loved one, the grief is going to pass and you are going to smile again.
Speaker B:So there are these themes that repeat over and over again in children's literature.
Speaker B:A loss of a loved one, losing one's home, friendships, falling apart, overcoming obstacles.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the things we work on are like literally perfecting the art of writing.
Speaker B:So we might talk about emotional scene, how you write an emotional scene where you make the reader feel something.
Speaker B:We're giving a workshop tonight on Personal Space.
Speaker B:So how close do you feel to the narrator and how does a narrator make the reader feel closer to them and when is that useful?
Speaker B:How do they make them feel?
Speaker B:Have a little distance between them and when is that useful?
Speaker B:Might be a form of fantasy if the narrator feels farther apart.
Speaker B:Might be better.
Speaker B:In a contemporary story about a child going through something really intense, if the narrator feels really close to the reader.
Speaker B:We talk about setting and tone and pacing and revision.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh.
Speaker A:That's so fascinating though too, because I think to your.
Speaker A:I mean, that is an excellent point that you made that people, if you say, oh, I wrote a children's book, oh, that's so easy, right?
Speaker B:No, no, I think that it would.
Speaker A:Be actually in some ways more difficult because you are having.
Speaker A:It's a heavy lift with much fewer words.
Speaker A:Especially is a younger grade, you know, even picture book.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:I mean, you have what, maybe a hundred words in the entire book that you're trying to convey a story.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So in a picture book, it's today, Today it's about 500 words and 32 pages to tell the whole story at most.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:For middle grade, you're looking at, I want to say, well, the new push is for really short stories, about a hundred pages.
Speaker B:We're really, you know, kids are struggling to read right now.
Speaker B:Their attention is all over the place.
Speaker B:They're used to things moving quickly.
Speaker B:But you know, why A, you might be looking at a 250 page book, a 300 to 400 page book, if it's a fantasy.
Speaker B:So it's really age dependent.
Speaker B:But picture books are much harder than people think.
Speaker B:Because it's a poem, it has to Be like poetry, rhythm.
Speaker B:I was just gonna say yes.
Speaker A:And if you think about your favorite children's books, like they all have rhythm.
Speaker A:It's why a lot of them, we can still say like we.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We committed them to memory.
Speaker A:I mean, Goodnight Moon, I could say to you right now, right?
Speaker B:Oh my gosh, my kid read one Duck Stuck in the Muck so many times.
Speaker B:I love that book.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh, yes, yes.
Speaker A:And you like, all of a sudden it comes back to you and you're like, oh yeah, I, I know exactly how that goes.
Speaker B:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker A:Oh my gosh, it's brilliant.
Speaker A:But yes, I think there is, there's a lot of value in understanding what goes in, into that.
Speaker A:And that's why I wanted to just talk about that briefly for a moment.
Speaker A:We had talked about too on this topic of inclusivity and one of the clear avenues is talking about banned books and the intersection of that.
Speaker A:And I'm wondering if you could start off with talking about or sharing the types of books that we typically see banned and why.
Speaker B:Okay, well, I want to preface it by saying I'm not an, I'm not an expert on book banning.
Speaker B:I can just talk about what I understand based on what's happening, of course.
Speaker B:And my experience is that any book that talks about something different that makes a white, as you and I have talked about, a white, straight, probably Christian individual uncomfortable or might make them uncomfortable, usually coming from a community that is more closed, that is less open minded, that is maybe more homage, homogeneous, it can be about girls getting their period.
Speaker B:It can be, I mean, I, I read somewhere that one town banned a book about cats and it was like the encyclopedia of.
Speaker B:And I, I just went back and took a double take and I read it again and all I can think about is that there's a chapter on how cats have baby.
Speaker B:Cats, like that's all I can think about.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there are books that are banned that are about, you know, black children and their hair and their families being depicted doing everyday regular family things.
Speaker B:And someone said, I don't want my child reading a book about a family with a different color skin than my family.
Speaker B:There are a ton of books being banned about queer kids, in particular kids who are trans.
Speaker B:That's a really big one.
Speaker B:So we've got race and sexual identity, gender identity.
Speaker B:It's, you know, and, and as I'm sure you know, it's a very small group of people with tremendous power.
Speaker B:And there have always been book then.
Speaker B:And this is what's fascinating to me.
Speaker B:I mean, Judy Blume was banned.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:You know, in the, what, 70s, her books were banned.
Speaker B:Forever was banned.
Speaker B:She got in trouble because one of her characters sweared in a book.
Speaker B:So there's always been this righteous group of parents who are attempting to tell the rest of us what is and is not appropriate for our children.
Speaker B:And that's where I get sort of incensed.
Speaker B:I say, well, you know, that's what libraries and bookstores are for.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like when you go to the grocery store, you're not going to say to grocer, please don't carry Campbell tomato soup, because I don't like tomato soup.
Speaker B:You're just not going to buy the Cheetos soup, but you're not going to make it or eat it.
Speaker B:And the same thing goes with books.
Speaker B:If you don't want your child to read the book, don't take it out of the library.
Speaker B:Don't buy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, I think this goes to something that you were saying a little bit earlier, which is in this, like, is a thread that runs through, well, my child might see it in the school library.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:What if they see it?
Speaker A:What if they take it off the shelf?
Speaker A:What if it, you know, and there's this whole fear of it transferring its powers.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But it's going to change them.
Speaker A:And, and I think it's fascinating because it's really the same fear that is that threat.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And I think that's a way of thinking that needs to be debunked, which is reading something, seeing something, being around someone who is different than you are is not going to make you whatever their difference is.
Speaker A:Because it's been going on for a while.
Speaker A:Book banning.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, throughout history.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But because it is a loud group, it is a well funded group and it's also a little insidious.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And they kind of get in there before people who are like, wait a second, wait, what's going on?
Speaker A:And it's really hard, I think it's been really hard for the people who've been knocked back on their heels to fight it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because they're like 12 steps behind.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And you had given an example earlier about a, a principal, you know, writing an I'm, you know, an apology letter about.
Speaker A:I think there's been, the response to this initially was like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry we did this, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:Instead of saying, wait a second, right.
Speaker A:This is actually very valuable to have in this library, in this bookstore, on this bookshelf, wherever it is here's.
Speaker A:Why it's valuable.
Speaker A:If you don't like it, then your child can't take that book out.
Speaker B:And it's your right to stop them from taking that book out.
Speaker A:I mean, I will say, when I was growing up, there was this whole series of books that my mother would not let me take out from the library.
Speaker A:And the librarian just knew, like, I wasn't allowed to check out those books.
Speaker A:And I tried my darnedest to get those books because.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Cause then you're like, well, what's in them?
Speaker A:But you want to see it.
Speaker A:But, but she was successful and I was the, you know, the oldest child rule.
Speaker A:Phosphorus.
Speaker A:So I was like, but the point is, like, there are, there's options.
Speaker A:And so I feel like, you know, the point, like the, for the sake of our conversation,.
Speaker B:I feel like one.
Speaker A:Of the best things we can, we can do is talk about why these books are so important and encourage and empower others to push back in whatever way you can.
Speaker B:And I mean, you know, I don't know if you remember these books, but I, I had, my mother was a very permissive mom when it came to reading.
Speaker B:She was a school teacher and she, I was a very strong reader and she really had faith in me.
Speaker B:And I remember taking out Flowers in the Attic and reading this book.
Speaker B:I don't understand what's happening in this story.
Speaker B:Like, this doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker B:And that book, I would argue, is more egregious than any of the books on children's bookshelves.
Speaker B:And that did not change the way I thought about my siblings.
Speaker B:I didn't, you know, like, no, it didn't turn me into any direction in approaching inappropriate behavior with my family members.
Speaker B:You know, So I think I just, this is what I always wish I could sit down and say to.
Speaker B:I'll call them closed minded parents.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Closed minded parents.
Speaker B:And I have friends who fall into that category.
Speaker B:You know, friends you meet when your kids are babies and then they grow up and you sort of, as they get older, you start having conversations.
Speaker B:You realize you're not on the same page about a lot of things.
Speaker B:No child makes a choice in life to do something that makes their life more difficult.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:No child makes the choice to take the harder path.
Speaker B:If they could, every child would take the path that comes with the least baggage and the most joy and freedom.
Speaker B:So kids who are struggling with their sexual identity or gender identity or their sexual orientation, you know, they're not sitting there going, you know what?
Speaker B:I am going to choose this really challenging path for myself because I want to.
Speaker B:In fact, many of them are torturing themselves inside.
Speaker B:They're sad and they're scared and they're lonely, and they're.
Speaker B:Because they don't know what to do with the big feelings and the big emotions and the big ideas that they're having.
Speaker B:So these books are so necessary for those kids to say, you're okay.
Speaker A:You're not alone.
Speaker B:There are other kids just like you.
Speaker B:Lots of them.
Speaker B:There's so many of them, and you are not alone.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker A:I mean, that was beautifully said, because I. I talk about this all the time and a million different ways, and I don't think I've ever said it that eloquently before.
Speaker A:Inclusive and diverse books are so vitally important at every single level.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that, you know, a child.
Speaker A:I always think, you know, years ago, one of the.
Speaker A:The first books that.
Speaker A:In my memory, probably because it has my name in it, but Heather has two mommies.
Speaker A:And I remember people, like, freaking out about that book, and I was.
Speaker A:I did not understand, like, why are people freaking out?
Speaker A:I mean, this is, like a great thing, right?
Speaker A:But it was, like, groundbreaking for this book to be out there.
Speaker A:But what a beautiful thing like these.
Speaker A:How many kids read that book?
Speaker A:And they were like, oh, my family.
Speaker A:This is totally normal that my family looks like this.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:To your point of, you know, kind of pointing that out in such a way that is.
Speaker A:Is not judgmental, it's not angry.
Speaker A:It just is.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:This is the reality, I think, that invites or encourages people who are.
Speaker A:To the place where they're able to take it in.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But to think, like, where is this fear coming from?
Speaker A:Why am I afraid of this?
Speaker A:Why am I so afraid to have my child read this?
Speaker A:And so I think that's, you know, why we keep.
Speaker A:We keep doing what we do, Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But I also think it's important for everyone to know that one, some of the most challenging, some of the people struggling the most to do their job right now are the librarians, those schools trying to protect those books and trying to fight against these small but mighty, let's just call them virtue warriors.
Speaker B:And the other thing is that book publishers are feeling the heat, and it's important to know that, too.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So if there is a book that you love or that you want to read, buy it.
Speaker B:Support the publishers by buying it because, you know, their book sales get impacted.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So the entire school system in a community or in a state decides that they're not going to Buy a book.
Speaker B:Because there's been a whole campaign against that book and that publisher.
Speaker B:Publishing is not big business.
Speaker B:It is not a high yield, high margin business.
Speaker B:We want them to still make those books.
Speaker B:We want them to continue publishing those books.
Speaker B:And they are already starting to make other choices.
Speaker B:And it's not because they don't want to keep publishing those books.
Speaker B:It's because they cannot publish a book that makes no money.
Speaker B:They cannot publish a book that gets sent back to them.
Speaker B:So I think, even though I know times are tough and I know books can be very expensive, but what I would say is if there's a beautiful book that you read in the library and you love it and it represents your family or some, you know, or not your family, but you just think it's so beautifully done, help the publisher buy the book.
Speaker A:That is really, really good advice.
Speaker A:I think that's something we don't really think about.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like the, all the impacts that this has and lasting.
Speaker A:Because once publishers start making other choices.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It makes it that much harder than to kind of flip things around.
Speaker B:And I will tell you, I will just say I have a book on submission right now about a very challenging topic and it will get banned.
Speaker B:If I sell the book, it will get banned.
Speaker B:And I had an editor write back to my agent and to me saying, this is a beautiful, beautifully written book.
Speaker B:We really loved it.
Speaker B:But we're not doing books like this.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There's a kid out there who needs this book.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But they're not doing books like this right now because someone's going to oppose it.
Speaker B:Someone's going to try to ban it.
Speaker B:They're not going to sell enough copies.
Speaker B:They're not going to make the money back on their production costs.
Speaker B:They don't want to do it that way.
Speaker B:But they are a business.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker A:And I think that is very important information to, for people to really understand.
Speaker A:Responding like this to fears of a very small group have such incredibly far reaching, damaging consequences totally.
Speaker A:That we, we have, I think we have no real idea.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:And so I think that's, you know, it's just one more reason for us to do whatever we can to, to fight back, to speak up and speak up imperfectly and messy and don't worry about, you know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Eloquence.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Like just it's, it's speaking up and pushing back and saying no.
Speaker A:And like you said, I mean, the best place you can go is to your local, local library, support your local libraries, your local independent bookstores.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Those are the two best things you can do.
Speaker A:And, and, and if you're really interested, I can put some links in for.
Speaker A:I've.
Speaker A:I'm part of a group called Authors Against Book Banning.
Speaker A:You might be too.
Speaker B:Yeah, I know them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they do really good, good work on keeping, keeping people up to date on the book banning bills, which are obviously more nationwide bills, which is even scarier.
Speaker A:But good things to keep on top of if this is something that is your interest.
Speaker A:So I think that there are a lot of ways you can get involved and help because this is something that is really, really important.
Speaker A:And we can't let a small group of people.
Speaker B:And the one other thing I'll just add, if you can't afford to buy the book, you can also many libraries, if they don't have a book in stock and you put in a request for many libraries, I believe either they have to order it or they can order it.
Speaker B:So you can also just ask your local library to order a book.
Speaker B:And that is another way to support the publisher because it doesn't matter to them if it's the library ordering the book or if you're buying it at the store, it's still a book sale.
Speaker A:Yep, that is very, very true.
Speaker A:That is, yes, you can actually do that, especially if it's your local library.
Speaker A:But hey, you should have your library card.
Speaker B:And I'm sure you know this as well, and I'm sure a lot of your listeners know this as well.
Speaker B:But I do believe the Brooklyn Public Library has free membership for the virtual library for students anywhere in the country who want access to their audiobooks.
Speaker B:I'm fairly confident that it is Brooklyn or New York.
Speaker B:One of them has an option for kids who live in areas where there are a number of banned books.
Speaker B:And if they want access to them, they can get them digitally as well.
Speaker B:If you live in Key West, Florida, Judy Blume has her own bookstore with an entire wall dedicated to banned books.
Speaker B:So it's on my list of things to do is to go see Judy's store.
Speaker A:I had no idea.
Speaker A:Oh my goodness.
Speaker A:Now it's on my list.
Speaker B:I feel like we're very lucky today in a lot of ways that despite all of the struggles that we're up against, there are incredible authors doing incredible things.
Speaker B:So I wanted to do a little bit of research this week and I sort of did a deep dive with my daughter, who's actually an entry level working at an entry level publishing job at one of the big five publishers.
Speaker B:And we were putting together a list of Great literature for the LGBTQ community.
Speaker B:And she was saying to me, you know, it's not just for kids, but it's for parents too.
Speaker B:There are incredible novels that we should be reading as parents.
Speaker B:She brought me the book Safekeep.
Speaker B:It was fantastic.
Speaker B:And I. I had never heard of it.
Speaker B:And she's like, this is a great book, Mom.
Speaker B:You should read it.
Speaker B:So for me, there's two kinds of.
Speaker B:You know, all books are designed on some ways to teach you something or leave you thinking about something or contemplating the world and your place in the universe.
Speaker B:I was doing a deep dive for a little while on neurodivergence.
Speaker B:I was interested in writing a book about a child with adhd.
Speaker B:And I went to the library, and I took out a huge stack of books, and some of them were so didactic that I didn't know what to do with them.
Speaker A:They were.
Speaker B:I just was reading them.
Speaker B:I was like, so you're telling me you want me to know about something?
Speaker B:And it felt like it belonged in a therapist's office or, you know, it was a very teachy book.
Speaker B:And I kind of bristled at that because I was like, that's not exactly the kind of reading and writing I like to do.
Speaker B:I like books that teach you something indirectly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That leave you with questions.
Speaker B:So, for example, what's lovely about the Safekeep is there is a queer romance that is just a part of this sort of historical fiction kind of mystery, like, what's going on here?
Speaker B:It's just a part of the story.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's normal in the street.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It just seamlessly blends right in.
Speaker B:There's no red light pointing at it and saying, you know, we have a queer story here.
Speaker B:You're just.
Speaker B:You're like, this is just beautiful literature, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so I think, for me, I'm always gonna be personally drawn to the less didactic.
Speaker B:I want stories where I'm so caught up in the literature that the subject matter is less important to me, that the, you know, identity of the characters is less important to me.
Speaker B:You know, and again, going back to diverse books are so important.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I don't want.
Speaker B:I just want to read it because it's a fantastic story.
Speaker B:I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker A:Oh, it totally does.
Speaker A:I am typically, you know, three or four years behind what the most popular books are.
Speaker A:So, of course, I am just now reading this, the Fourth Wing series.
Speaker A:I'm on the second book now, and I, as I was reading the Other night, I was like, I love the way that she wrote her characters because this is exactly what she does.
Speaker A:There's never a label.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It's just is.
Speaker A:Each scene that I go into, I've had to circle back a couple of times and be like, oh, wait, that's cool.
Speaker A:Because I'm like, flagging this thing.
Speaker A:But it isn't written in a way for you to, like, flag it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If that makes sense.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so I think, yes, to your point, there is a way of doing that.
Speaker A:And I agree.
Speaker A:I would much rather read, you know, learn about a topic through a narrative, through a story, through a person, you know, a character.
Speaker A:So there is extreme value in that, for sure.
Speaker B:And I will say, I have a friend who's working on a project right now.
Speaker B:It was a little didactic.
Speaker B:And I said to her, there's a place for this.
Speaker B:There are publishers that are interested in these kinds of books.
Speaker B:And then you just need to understand that it's different publishers, different audiences, different.
Speaker B:They're in service of different readers.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And I think I told you about Six of Crows, which is one of my favorite YA fantasies by Leigh Bardugo.
Speaker B:And it's a fantastical world, and all of the characters are mixed races.
Speaker B:They're all made up, although you can sort of see where they're taken from.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But she has created a fantasy world, and there are all of these romances happening, and some are interracial and some are queer and some are straight.
Speaker B:And the story is so fantastic and so captivating that you don't even pay attention.
Speaker B:You're just.
Speaker B:Which, to me, is the best way.
Speaker B:Right, Exactly.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So anyways.
Speaker B:So I would say that would be the one thing I would talk about is that, you know, and again, we are so lucky to be in a time where there are so many incredibly talented authors for adults and for children who are still doing this good work.
Speaker B:They are still writing.
Speaker B:And there are scholarships for authors and for young authors who want to write diverse stories who may not have the funds to help themselves improve their craft.
Speaker B:That's the other thing I would say.
Speaker B:There are organizations like, we need diverse books.
Speaker B:There are scholarships.
Speaker B:At the Highlights foundation, my company has a scholarship.
Speaker B:We raise money and then we give a scholarship to full scholarships to folks writing diverse, underrepresented characters and stories who could not otherwise afford to learn and study craft.
Speaker A:That is really, really fantastic.
Speaker A:There are going to be a lot of links in the show notes.
Speaker A:What advice would you give to someone who has an idea?
Speaker B:The hardest part is writing it down.
Speaker B:You know, the hardest part is starting.
Speaker B:And I would say start with a journal.
Speaker B:Write, put aside a little bit of time every day or put aside chunks of time every week.
Speaker B:There are a lot of books that will tell you how to do it.
Speaker B:I think every person has to find their own process that works for them.
Speaker B:But I will say the biggest hurdle most aspiring writers have is actually finishing the story.
Speaker B:You can take classes, you can join support groups, you can join a writing group.
Speaker B:Well, I would say more of a writing group where you meet with friends every couple of weeks and share pages and you can take workshops or classes.
Speaker B:But the most important thing is that you make the time to do the work and get those words on the page.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Is there anything else you would like to add before we wrap up?
Speaker B:You know, I really, I'm so glad to be here.
Speaker B:I hope it's offered some insight and I hope, I hope we're just going to get more books into more kids hands.
Speaker B:I think when we feel alone, when our kids feel alone, I think one of the best things we can do is bring them a book.
Speaker A:Agreed.
Speaker B:And just say this book is just perfect for how you're feeling.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So that would be it.
Speaker A:On that note.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:We will say, we will end it right here.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for being here, Sheri.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me, Sam.
