What if everything you know about marketing is backwards? Mike Konrad spent £70,000 on a waterfall that dropped words from the sky, only to discover the most important lesson of his 33-year business career. After transitioning from "high-tech carnival barker" to trusted industry authority, Mike stopped running adverts entirely - yet his sales kept climbing. In this episode, he reveals how abandoning product pitches, embracing education, and building genuine authority transformed not just his revenue, but the quality of customers who now fight to buy from him.

What You'll Learn

• Why stopping product promotion actually increases sales
• How to transform from 'carnival barker' to trusted authority
• The "guided discovery" method that lets customers sell themselves
• Why modern buyers join tribes, not customer lists
• How to attract solution-seekers instead of price-focused customers
• The coal-to-steam approach for building sustained business growth
• Real strategies for building credibility without traditional advertising

Timestamps

[00:03:00] The £70,000 waterfall moment that changed everything 

[00:06:00] Why Mike stopped advertising but sales kept growing 

[00:11:00] The steam engine analogy - how educational content fuels business 

[00:16:00] The counterintuitive truth about selling without selling 

[00:22:00] Learning from "Yoda" - the mentor who changed his perspective

[00:27:00] Two podcasts, different audiences, same authority-building strategy 

[00:42:00] The conscious marketing philosophy that connects emotionally

[00:48:30] How message quality determines customer quality

Resources

Guest Links: 

• Mike's personal website: https://www.mikekonrad.com/
• The Reluctant Entrepreneur Podcast: https://www.reluctantentrepreneurpodcast.com
• Reliability Matters Podcast: www.reliabilitymatterspodcast.com

Podjunction Ecosystem:

• Podjunction Home: https://podjunction.com/
• Sadaf's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sadafbeynon/

We haven't run an ad in a dozen years.

I found that the best way to sell your product is to stop talking about your

product, which is so counterintuitive.

And, uh, a mentor of mine said that to me and I'm just like, are you crazy?

And I kept, just kept thinking, well, we'll try this for a few

months and if it doesn't work, we'll go back to carnival barking, it.

Worked incredibly well.

Hey there, I'm Sadaf Beynon, and this is Podjunction Podcast, the show where

business leaders share how they use podcasting and story-driven marketing to

grow, connect, and build their brands.

We also explore the smart marketing moves that can make

your podcast even more powerful.

Today I'm joined by Mike Conrad, an entrepreneur of over 30 years, the

author of The Reluctant Entrepreneur, and the host of Not One, but Two

Podcasts, reliability Matters, and The Reluctant Entrepreneur.

Mike, welcome.

It's so good to have you here,

Thanks, Sadaf.

It's very great to see you.

Mike.

Let's start with your first show Reliability Matters.

Why did you decide to launch it?

Um.

Well, the, the story I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on the way back machine

and time travel a little bit.

Uh, the business that I founded 33 years ago, um, is, uh, we build

equipment within the electronics manufacturing space, nerdy stuff.

And I, I was not a business person.

I was not an entrepreneur.

I kind of fell into it.

It was the, it was the only way I could get a product that

I had designed to the market.

No one else would do it.

So hence the, the term reluctant entrepreneur.

And, but I was a marketer at heart.

You know, I was just a sales guy.

I, I could, I could sell anything to anyone.

And, and I, I, I loved the whole idea of marketing.

When I traveled on an airplane, I'd, uh, you know, before the internet, I

would, I would buy magazines at the airport store, and I usually news

magazines or auto magazines or something.

But I would read all the ads first.

And that's what interested me.

And then when I got bored, if it was a very long flight, then

I'd start reading the articles.

Um, but I was very interested in advertising and marketing

and, and, uh, you know, the art of persuasion and all of that.

Um, so the best, when you start a business, you have to do two things

you love and 99 things you hate, right?

Um, and, and you're not good at.

Um, but the stuff I loved was, was marketing and sales.

And we were obnoxious advertisers.

We, we were terrible in hindsight.

We were terrible.

Uh, we did, uh, we exhibited in about 12 or 13 trade shows a year.

Um, we had, um, magicians and waterfalls and video games and all these.

Tricks in our booth just to attract attention.

And our advertising was obnoxious.

Um, and I'm, I'm exaggerating only slightly when I say our ads said

something like, we're the best.

Everyone else sucks.

Buy from us.

Right?

And we would, we would parade out all the attributes of our machine, um,

the horsepower readiness of the pump, the CFM readiness of the blower, the

wattage of the heaters, and no one cared.

But we didn't, but we cared.

So, you know, we were the best.

And, uh, we gave away all the swag in our booth, you know, at shows.

And, and we did everything we could.

We were what like to refer to as high tech carnies.

You know, we were the carnies, the Barkers at a, at a, at a, uh, uh, carnival,

you know, getting you to, you know, waste money, trying to win a, you know,

a $2 bear or something stuffed bear.

Uh, we were terrible.

And then one day.

We were at a trade show and I had rented a giant waterfall, but

not just any kind of waterfall.

It was 16 feet high, 30 feet wide.

And instead of dropping sheets of water, like a stream of water, like

a waterfall, it had thousands of little nozzles at the, at the top.

And it was like a giant inkjet printer.

It dropped little droplets of water in a controlled fashion, so that

words and images fell from the sky.

It was really cool.

And, uh, I think I spent 50 or 60 or $70,000 renting that,

you know, for a three day show.

And I was proud of it.

And we had all of our equipment in the booth the morning the show opened, all

our RFR equipment was in the booth, and we intentionally put wheels on our equipment

so that we could wheel it in and out of the booth without having to, you know,

hire all the union labor to do it for us.

And, um.

Someone came up, this is back in the day, you know, before

camera phones and all that.

So someone came up, uh, or, or good camera phones.

Anyway, so someone came up with their, with their, um, 35 millimeter

camera and said, Hey, is it okay if I take a picture of your waterfall?

This is the most amazing, you know, booth I've ever seen.

And, and I'm, I'm just like, ah, good job, Mike.

You know that, that was a, a nice vote of confidence for all the money I spent.

I'm like, absolutely, you can take a picture.

Then he looked at the equipment, noticed the wheels, and he said, is

there any way you can just move your machines out of the way so that I can

just get the waterfall and set off it?

It, it, it hit me, um, like sledgehammer over the head.

It's like, what am I doing?

We don't sell waterfalls.

We have nothing to do with waterfalls.

And it was just a gimmick, and the gimmick was getting all the attention.

No one cared what was in front of the waterfall, our products

that we were trying to sell, and it just hit me that day.

That very instant that we have to change what we're doing.

We're just loud and obnoxious.

And the only, you know, the only people that are really hearing

us are ourselves and no one else.

So after that show, that was the last show we exhibited in for about 10 years.

We said, okay, we gotta, we gotta do things differently.

Um, we canceled all of our ad contracts in, in the various industry trade

magazines, and we thought, okay, we gotta, we gotta do something else.

We had a lot of energy going into advertising and marketing.

We need to change it.

And, um, I, I'm, I'm guilty of coining phrases, which I later learned

have already been coined by others.

Um, but the, the phrase I came up with, which was not mine originally,

I guess, um, was conscious marketing.

We have to do things a little bit differently.

We have to connect to our customers on a completely different

level, not the level we were.

Attempting to connect, you know, with before, and that would involve

education because, because in our industry there's a specific problem in

the electronics industry that all the electrical engineers are well aware of.

And they, most of the people who should be our customers know they

have a problem, but they don't know what the root of that problem is.

They don't really have that causation.

And we know what the problem is, but if we just advertise our machine, it doesn't

land because they don't connect our machine as a solution to their problem.

They don't understand their problem.

So we decided to pretty much instantly start building a campaign of education.

And then I started, um, realizing the best way to do that is

to create authority because.

You don't just believe everything you hear, so we need

to start building authority.

How do we do that?

So we started, um, hosting technical workshops, a hundred percent

non-commercial technical workshops, concentrating on the problem and the best

practice solutions to those problems, which happened to be our, our equipment

and others like it, not just us.

Uh, but we didn't talk about our equipment.

We didn't even show pictures of our equipment.

It was all, um, it was all practical, best practice advice, very technical.

And then we started doing webinars.

You know, back in the day, I think there was only one webinar platform

out there, and that was GoToMeeting.

And back in those days it was absolutely awful.

You know, half your, half your, uh, attendees fell off.

You know, they couldn't keep a connection.

We had a hard time keeping a connection.

Um, it's low resolution, but we were doing it and, uh, we called it Tech Tuesdays.

And we did one one Tuesday every month.

And we've been doing that now for like 15 years and.

Uh, and then we started, uh, hosting workshops.

Uh, well, I talked about work.

We did workshops, live workshops.

We did webinars.

Uh, and then I started in, I always, when I refer to trade shows, I refer to

downstairs and upstairs at trade shows.

All shows have this downstairs are the booths, the exhibits

where all the Carnival Barkers are all trying to sell their wares,

give away swag, all this stuff.

And then upstairs I was never interested before.

And upstairs, upstairs is where the technical conference goes.

That's where people go to learn and seek solutions to problems.

I abandoned downstairs, which till today I still miss, I still miss

that carnival, you know, atmosphere.

Um, but I started speaking much more regularly, uh, at every conference

that would accept me as a speaker.

And so between the, the speaking gigs, um.

And the webinars and the, uh, workshops.

I started writing a lot of papers.

Um, I published a couple of small, very small, uh, books,

uh, booklets, really, uh, on the best practices for our industry.

And then eventually I started a podcast, um, called Reliability Matters.

And that was, you know, strictly about reliability of, of electronics.

And, and I, uh, would interview subject matter experts along that line.

And, uh, they would educate me and my audience on best practices within

their, uh, uh, level of expertise.

And all these years later, that's been about 10 or 12 years now that

we've been doing this, uh, education approach, this value added approach.

Um, I managed to build some authority within the space,

the electronics industry, and.

People now reach out to me and ask me technical questions on

things I'm not involved in.

I mean, I,

hmm.

I don't wanna say I'm a go-to resource, I'm just one of, several

go-to resources now, but we had to earn the trust of our audience that

we're not there to sell them stuff.

Now, I say that a little disingenuously because obviously this is an

alternate approach to marketing.

It is a different form of marketing.

It's marketing through creating value in education and making, uh, true

connections, intellectual connections, emotional connections, et cetera.

Um, and it is a very, I, I've, uh, realized a very savvy way of marketing.

Um, but we don't do it with the intent of getting an order.

What we do is, uh, uh, the way I, I describe it, um, to my kind of civilian

friends who aren't in marketing or aren't in this electronics industry.

If you go back to the, uh, steam engine, you know, the, the steam

locomotive, uh, back in the day there were basically two employees up

front, you know, in the engine area.

Um, the engineer who drove the train, moved it forward, moved it back, ran

the brakes, all that, and the fireman who shoveled coal into the furnace.

And, you know, that fireman didn't know which lump of coal took the

train from mile one to mile two.

All the firemen knew is that shoveling coal into the furnace built energy.

Coal is energy.

Energy created heat.

Heat boiled the water, water turned to steam, steam moved the train,

and it began with the energy.

Without that energy, the train wouldn't move.

And I liken all the various, uh, educational arms that we have, the

podcasts, the webinars, the, um.

Lectures, the, uh, books, the, uh, technical papers, white papers, things

like that are all lumps of coal.

They all produce energy and they move our little train down the track.

I can't tell you which order resulted from which lump of educational

coal that we put out there.

I just know it works.

So that that's how we got into this space, this kind of head space and this, um, seed

change of, of the way we communicate with not just customers, but to our industry.

And, uh, and that's worked exceptionally well.

We haven't run an ad in a dozen years.

I think we've exhibited, uh, at four shows in a dozen years or 10 years at least.

And, uh, now when we do shows, uh, it's, it's.

Really about education.

I'm upstairs the whole time.

My team is downstairs.

And, um, we're not there to, our, our focus is not there to sell machines.

We bring machines obviously, 'cause that's, that's who we are.

Um, but we're there to educate and, and we're there to meet with our current

customers and hopefully future customers and vendors and editors and, uh, you

know, the trade press and, uh, colleagues.

And when we put the focus on that kind of more holistic approach, a

wider approach, uh, we end up, we sell machines, but I think we would

sell machines if we weren't there.

Um, so we we're there for, for a different, uh, our priorities are

a little bit different and they're, they're a higher oc, kind of higher

elevation, much broader priority set of priorities than just.

Stamping badges and collecting names and getting purchase orders, you know,

Yeah.

those days are thankfully behind us.

Uh, thanks so much for sharing that, Mike.

That's really helpful.

And also, um, really cool to see how, um, your business has progressed over,

especially over the last, you know, decade or, uh, 12 years or whatever it was.

Um, and love how you changed your approach based on the fact that actually what you

were trying to sell wasn't actually really landing because it wasn't solutions based.

What impact did reliability matters have on your credibility

or business results that you didn't necessarily expect 10 years ago?

Um, a huge impact in, in a number of different ways.

Uh, probably the greatest impact was a much wider audience who

got to know who I am, uh, and,

um, that follow the program that, that, that follow the show.

That subscribed to the show.

That download the show.

Um, you know, I'm in a very niche industry.

Um, we're, we're within the el I mean, the electronics industry is huge,

but we're in a very small corner of the electronics industry in terms

of the types of products we make.

Our, our products don't.

Make anything.

They don't, they don't put ingredients into our product and

out pops a circuit board, right?

We're not that.

Um, our products make our customer's products more reliable.

So it's value added.

It's not really, um, part of the manufacturing.

It doesn't put components on boards, it doesn't solder

boards, it doesn't test boards.

What it does is it, it makes them more reliable through a very specific process.

Um, so it's all value added and, uh, for that you need a lot of education.

But I found that the best way to sell your product is to stop talking about your

product, which is so counterintuitive.

And, uh, a mentor of mine said that to me and I'm just like, are you crazy?

That makes no sense.

That's stupid.

That's, come on.

You know, I'm a carnival barker by, you know, at heart and you can't tell this.

This sales person, you know, who lives for sales and marketing to

stop talking about their product.

But she was right.

And that comes with a lot of caveats.

It's, it's not just stop talking, don't say anything, uh, ever on any subject.

It's, you know, before you earn the right be trusted, to be respected for people to

place value in what one says, one needs to establish authority first, and, and trust.

Um, and it made sense after the fact as we, as I started doing it, um, I was so

frustrated with the way we were doing it.

We made the change, but I wasn't completely sold on

this is the right change.

And I kept, just kept thinking, well, we'll try this for a few

months and if it doesn't work, we'll go back to carnival barking,

you know, bring the waterfall back.

But, um, but it, it.

Worked incredibly well.

Uh, as I said earlier, you know, we haven't advertised in any traditional

format, uh, in, in a decade at least.

And, uh, sales are growing and growing and growing.

And, and most importantly, people kind of addressing your, your question,

um, people recognize who I am and I don't mean that's important for me.

Um, it's important that, um, when I talk engineers in our space are listening

because they know I'm a safe source of, of reliable, accurate technical

content, and I don't come across as trying to sell them something.

Um, I don't, you know, speak through a filter of how many

people are gonna buy my machine.

I don't care about that.

At least in that moment, I don't care about that.

My goal is to.

Uh, transmit information that's accurate, that's beneficial for

the industry, and that's valuable.

Uh, and, uh, I've gained a reputation for doing that.

And in our space, there's a number of podcasts in our space, most of which are

produced by the trade magazines, most of which are interviewing their advertisers,

most of which get very commercial.

Uh, so it doesn't take much to stand out in our field anyway.

Um, and if someone does, and there are a few, uh, people now that, uh,

now have podcasts in our space that think like me, uh, and not, um, just

trying to, you know, haw a product.

Uh, so, um, it's growing.

Um, but it's, um, you know, it's a long journey as you know.

Uh, you don't just start a podcast.

You know, the, I remember when I recorded episode one.

Literally at that point we weren't on video, video, it was just audio.

And I'm talking into a microphone knowing absolutely nobody is listening.

Zero, because no one knows I'm gonna do this, right?

So I'm talking to an audience of one, which is me, and there's no one out there.

And, and then, you know, the second episode, maybe I had one

follower, maybe it was my wife or my mother, um, or, or a good friend.

Uh, and then, you know, you just do it and then the third,

and then you just do it again.

And then you just do it again.

And then eventually it's like watching grass grow.

You know, from, from Monday to Tuesday, nothing happens, but somehow by the next

Monday, your grass is too long, right?

It's just one of those things you can't see it happen, but

it does happen over time.

Um, so that it, the confidence started to build up.

And then eventually I would be at a conference speaking.

I'd be in an elevator, you know, at night, go going to my room and

someone would be in the elevator and they would just look at me and go.

You're, you're that, that's, you're the guy.

I'm like the podcast guy.

Yes.

You're the podcast guy.

And that, that felt so good.

You know, um, that I love your podcast.

I love episode number, you know, 12 or 112 or whatever the number is.

And, and I don't remember what episode those were, but, but, um, uh, it's,

it's, it's a really good feeling to know that not only does it, is it good for my

business, um, it's good for the industry.

And, um, you know, there's something about, uh, I, I've long believed when

you have a company that the company needs to be greater than the sum of its parts.

You know, you need to make a difference in the world.

You need to make something better, right?

And this podcast and others like it, not just me, but others like it, that provide

real value, that provide education, that provide solid advice, best practice.

Um, you know, we make our industry better and we make the, uh, day.

Life of our, of our viewers and listeners better because we provide

advice they maybe didn't know.

And you know, all of a sudden, you know, a light bulb goes

off and go, now I understand.

And, and then their products get better.

So it's, it's, it's a good feeling.

And watching the sales soar and the profits roll in is also a very

that's always a

I'm not bypassing that at all.

Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that.

I mean, it's clear that your podcast has such a strong impact on, um, you know,

as you said, not just your business, but also the industry and you're, you're able

to educate and you're also able to build your authority while you're doing it.

And, um, also going back to what you said about what your mentor shared with you,

it sounds like taking her advice, um, was a really important decision for you.

Yeah.

And it was a leap of faith because, um.

I refer to my mentor, and she does not like this term.

Um, but I, I refer to her as Yoda.

It's the best way to describe her because, not from a physical

attribute standpoint, thankfully.

Um, but the stuff she says is very abstract and it doesn't

seem to make sense in the moment.

Um, but what one, one thing she taught me, which I've kept with me all these

years is if I hear something that just sounds a little nutty to me, um, she

taught me just consider the possibilities.

So I would, you know, younger me would just go, oh, that's stupid.

Next, move on, move on.

And, and I would just reject it and not think about it again.

And she taught me to consider the possibilities.

And if it doesn't make sense today, okay, stick it on a shelf in your head

and just, just have a place for it.

You don't have to adopt it until it makes sense.

And a hundred percent of the time, maybe a few months later, maybe a few years

later, all of a sudden I, I, I go through the shelf in my head and I go, oh my God,

this, this would be perfect right now.

This is, now it makes sense.

I just needed more context and time, uh, and maturity and wisdom

and all the, all those things.

And, uh, I can't think of a, a single suggestion that she's made over the years

that, um, has not ultimately made sense.

So she just sees things from a different perspective.

And, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, I can't see the forest from the trees.

I'm in the weeds, right?

So, uh, she's kind of way up on the crow's nest and seen over

the horizon, and I'm not there.

So, um, I, I've learned to trust.

The process, her process, the process, whatever the process is,

I've learned to trust it because it just works and it's never failed me.

And so we just keep doing it and if things change, we'll change along with it.

But at the moment, and for the last decade or so, um, we've just embraced more and

more of that, of that process of creating value, of becoming an authority, um, of

having our goal to educate, not to sell, not entirely to sell, but, um, that comes.

And, uh, and, and I, I've now, uh, embraced the process and, and live it.

And it just, at least for my business, I can't say it would work for everyone.

I think it would work for everyone.

I can't see why not.

Um, but it certainly worked for me.

But it is hard to tell people.

Cancel your ad contracts, quit, quit going to shows, not quit

going to shows, quit doing shows.

The way you're doing shows, right?

It's more, you know, go to the show, get a booth, get in front of potential

customers, but just broaden the goal.

You know, the goal isn't just to, you know, it is not a dating app.

You're not speed dating, you know, that just doesn't work.

Um, and so many exhibitors, it shows, you know, basically

have the speed dating approach.

And, uh, I think today's younger millennial, gen Z type, um,

consumer, they're not like me.

I did not grow up with the internet.

You know, I was four years into my business before the internet came out.

And, and, um, before we even have a, had a website and, you know, we were, uh,

telexes and, and, uh, very, very, very early faxes and US Mail, that's how we

communicated and running ads, you know, it was the only way we can get our.

Product in front of someone or exhibiting the trade show that,

that those were the only venues.

And I, I, I've come to learn that the younger generations specifically,

uh, they grew up with screens and so they research their own solutions

and they look for influencers.

I don't mean TikTok, Kardashian type influencers, but you know,

authority based influencers.

They, they get their information on their own.

They don't wait for a salesperson to come by with line cards in their

trunk and, and take 'em to lunch and, you know, expect a purchase order.

Hmm

almost no company now even has a visitor lobby that you can go into.

You need a key, you know, you need a card to even open the front door.

Um, they don't see salesmen the way they did when I was

be.

Yeah.

So, um, I think the way we're doing it and others this conscious

marketing approach, um, is, was.

Um, an alternative way to do business.

Now, I don't think it's an alternative way.

I think it's pretty much the only way to do business because how are you

gonna connect with young people who have no interest in connecting with you?

They, they want to do their research.

You have to give them stuff to research that's accurate.

Then they connect.

So now I get, you know, people reach out to me all the time

when I'm off this program.

I'll have 10 emails if someone wanted me to answer a question,

I dunno how to answer, but I, but I know, who knows, right?

So I can connect.

Um, but it just builds the trust and I don't think any amount

of advertising can do that.

Traditional advertising,

Yeah, no, you're right.

Uh, Mike, you've also got a second podcast, the Reluctant Entrepreneur,

yeah.

how,

I call it my big co big podcast and small podcast, relatively speaking.

The, the bigger one is reliability, and the other one is, is, and the one

I enjoy the most actually, is the, is, um, on this subject on entrepreneurship.

Um.

I started that because I, I realized, so I have, you know

what I call civilian friends.

You have civilian friends who are not podcasters themselves, right?

And, um, I have friends who are not podcasters and I have

friends that don't own a business.

And I'll start talking about my business and, uh, my friends are good for about,

I don't know, 90 seconds of attention.

And then they're not interested.

They just go, you know, oh, my phone's ringing, you know, I

gotta go get it or whatever.

Um, put, put two entrepreneurs or 10 entrepreneurs in a

room, and that's all we do.

We just talk about our businesses and we love to talk about our business, and

we love to hear about their business.

Mm-hmm.

it's like going to the VFW, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, sitting

down with some old World War II bets.

You know, drinking a beer, hearing all their foxhole stories, right?

They can talk for hours amongst each other.

Outside of the VFW, probably no one wants to listen, right?

But, um, so I wanted to get a venue together where entrepreneurs

can talk to entrepreneurs.

And probably more importantly, when I built my business, I made every

mistake one can possibly make.

I was not a business person.

And my goal, um, when I, uh, wrote the book, the Reluctant Entrepreneur, was,

uh, to candidly explain every mistake I ever made, and more importantly, what I

learned from every mistake I ever made.

It's not a how to book, it's a how not to book, right?

And, and, um, and I for years had this guilt and I would just be down on myself.

Like, you know, I consider myself pretty bright, and I'm like, how stupid can I be?

I, I must be the world's worst.

Business person, right?

Because they just keep making these stupid mistakes.

And you know, we were like a cat with 900 lives.

We should have been outta business dozens and dozens and dozens of times.

But, you know, through miracle and grit, you know, we, we stayed in

business and, um, when I talked to other entrepreneurs, they feel the same way.

And then I started realizing, wait a minute, this is, yes, it

was a failure on my part, but it really was a learning experience.

It, it was the ingredients that I needed, you know, that formed a

change agent to cause me to change.

And every entrepreneur goes through that.

Richard Branson went through that Sir Richard Branson, you know,

who owns hundreds of companies.

Um, they all go through it.

We all go through it.

And it's not something to beat yourself up over.

It's something to learn from.

Uh, and.

The more I realized that I'm not, I'm not in this alone.

Everyone else is making very similar types of mistakes.

Um, maybe I can create this, this medium where entrepreneurs can get

together and realize, you know, they went to the same school.

They, they, they experienced the same curriculum of learning how

to build a business as I did.

And we all did the same, but different.

And, uh, that's, those are the two main reasons I started the podcast.

Uh, I have nothing to sell, you know, um, I don't use it to sell my book,

although the, the title is the same.

Um, but it, it really is just more of understanding people's journeys.

Pulling out what's unique, what, what, what learning moments can my audience gain

from maybe my audience is experiencing the exact same thing at that exact same time.

And, and, and, you know, I've gotten feedback from audience, from my

audiences, you know, it's like you were in my head, you know, how did you know

that's exactly what I'm going through?

And to me, that's, that's why I do it.

I do it.

'cause I enjoy talking about entrepreneurship.

I enjoy talking about business and marketing and things like that.

And, um, I've been doing it for, you know, more than three decades now.

So, uh, and I'm still here.

So, you know, something went right and I just want to, uh, I just, you know,

right now, uh, the Bureau of U, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics states that

80% of all businesses ultimately fail.

That's just a statistic from our government.

And so 80% fail, 20% make it past 15 years.

Why do 80% fail?

I think 80% fail because, because of very similar reasons.

Because the owners, the founders,

the skills they had to grow the business from one to two,

failed them from two to three.

Then maybe they polish up their skills and then they can take the business to

four, and then they run outta skills.

And then, and then at some point they fail to either adapt to

new skills or acquire new skills through hiring, and then they fail.

So they're good, you know, they're good for a five year

business and then it fails.

They're good for a tenure business and it fails.

And according to the government, 80% of businesses are good for 15

years and or, or as long as 15 years.

And I'm thinking, I think we can change that 80 20 to 2080

Hmm.

if we understand.

The common denominator reasons businesses fail, and the common

denominator, the common denominator reasons business succeed.

And if we can just get a little preview of that before we experience

the failure, maybe a few businesses will shift to new skill sets or adapt

new skills or bring in new skills.

Um, maybe we can realize we don't know what we don't know, and maybe

we can realize that what got us from A two B will will kill us from B2C.

And, you know, so I wish I had heard that.

Um, maybe I wasn't meant to.

Maybe I was meant to learn it.

Maybe everyone's meant to learn it.

Maybe, maybe no one will hear the show or watch the show and, and all

of a sudden the business survives.

But, um, that's, those are the primary motivations for that,

that endeavor is just to kind of pay it forward, pay it back.

And, you know, if it helps a business owner or someone thinking of running

a business or someone working in a cubicle, you know, as a, you know,

10, 40 employee, um, or, or W2 employee, fine, that'd be great too.

Yeah.

One of the things I love about your story is that both podcasts are very

different, and yet they both build that credibility, visibility, and trust.

How have you seen that ripple effect play out in your business

or even your personal brand?

Um, lessen my personal life because both are very niche podcasts and

the majority of my friends don't own a business and, and, um, aren't in

the electronics assembly industry.

So, you know, it, it, it, but it has landed incredibly

well on my professional life.

Uh, ironically, even the entrepreneur podcast has landed.

In my business life.

Um, mainly just because it just adds more weight and more credibility, even

though I'm not talking about, um, uh, electronics, you know, reliability.

On the Reluctant Entrepreneur podcast, it's, you know, the, the, the number of

times they get a, if they follow me on LinkedIn or something, the number of times

to get a notification with my name on it is higher than if I, if I didn't do this.

So, um, for the people who follow me, I, I'm a little bit more front of mind,

for better or for worse, um, than I would be if I didn't produce content.

And I, and I do produce a lot of, I also produce a whole tips and trick

series, little, uh, 10 minute maximum length, um, uh, best practice tips

that's specifically in the genre of, of, of, of electronics that we're in.

Um, but all those things just.

Provide, um, that little red dot notification, you

know, oh, there's Mike again.

And I'm also on the board of directors for, um, one of our

industry's big trade associations.

And, and I'm their director of, uh, marketing and communications

and, um, or their VP of marketing and communications and

Mm-hmm.

uh, you know, so I also produce a lot of content for them as well.

But all of it just, I dunno, it just puts the thumb on the scale of credibility

and whether it's credibility to bring me in as a keynote speaker on, on

business or, um, a or a speaker at a conference or chairing a conference,

um, uh, whatever the case may be.

It just, it just puts the finger on the, on the thumb, on the scale, and

it just adds to, um, what people's perception of my credibility is.

And that can't hurt.

It, it, it,

sure.

you know, it, there are things I could do to affect my reputation that would not.

Be credible.

Um, and we used to do that.

Uh, but, um, I, I like it this way a lot better than, oh, if Mike's talking,

he is probably carnival barking again.

Yeah,

Yes.

Um, so Mike, beyond your podcast, I know you mentioned you've got, um,

other coal as well, other forms of energy that you're, that you, um,

pour into your, into your business.

And you talked about workshops, webinars, speaking.

I know you've written a book.

How do these fit into the bigger picture?

I'm a big believer, as I said earlier, that, that, you know, you have to

make a difference in this world.

Um, not, I'm not on this earth to sell machines to the electronics industry.

That's not my purpose of being here.

My purpose of being here is to somehow.

Make the world a better place.

That sounds grandiose.

I, I don't mean, and I'm not Gandhi, I'm, I'm not Mother Theresa.

Right.

Um, but, um, anyone, anyone can just do something to make the

world a little better than, you know, leave it a little better in a

better shape than, than you got it.

And, uh, to me, that, that plays a big role in my life is, uh, to have a positive

influence on somebody or something, or some industry or whatever the case may be.

And, um, all the stuff that I do, yes, it does fuel my business.

Absolutely.

Um, I'm not pollyannish about it, but it also, it's a twofer, you

know, it also helps somebody, um, my, uh, technical podcast, um, will

help an engineer solve a problem.

Um.

Maybe I'll be on that airplane that has a circuit board in it that doesn't fail.

Um, so I, you know, I can go back and record another podcast someday.

Um, that could help me.

Um, maybe I, I'm talking to someone who's about to close their business

'cause they think that, you know, they're down on themselves and, and, and

realize that they, they think that they can't, you know, they're a failure and

they don't realize that, you know, two inches to the left, it's all you need

to be, just make a little two inches to the left change and, and you're so

close to the prize, just can't see it.

Um, you know, maybe that will keep them going a day longer and

then they get the big contract.

I don't know.

I mean, tho those are things that I hope I have that kind of influence.

I don't know if I do, I, I'll probably never really know.

I get anecdotes from time to time from my listeners and viewers.

Um, but I don't know.

I just, just pay it forward.

Just keep doing it.

And, um, it, in the meantime.

Sales are, you know, the company's extremely healthy.

I'm semi-retired.

Uh, my, my team pays me to stay away, which is a very, has a great ROI

attached to that, that philosophy.

Um, so I, you know, I still own the company, but, you know, my

role in the company now is, is kind of the face of the company.

The, the, the spokesperson.

You know, the person who creates all the content, which they

have no interest in doing.

They love running a business.

They love all the nitty gritty of running a business.

They love the standard, standard operating procedures, the SOPs.

They write stuff that I never thought of.

You know, I was a terrible business person.

Great, uh, not a bad designer.

I, I invented products that we're selling today, but I had no

acumen for business and no desire to have an acumen for business.

And I wasn't very good at it.

They are great at it.

Uh, so it's a, it's a win-win.

I do stuff that they don't have an interest in doing.

Um, and I think I do it well, and they definitely do what they do well,

I know I didn't do it that well.

So we don't get in each other's way.

It's a complimentary relationship, and my team is amazing and, and I'm

so grateful for them because I don't have to go do the 99 things I hate

just to do the one thing I like, so I can just do the one thing I like and,

and they handle all the other stuff.

So everyone's happy.

It's win-win.

Yeah.

Your, your team sounds very balanced.

is, it is very balanced.

They are, they're the, the dream team.

And, you know, we sought out to build a dream team and I think when

I, when I first heard one of my, uh, people talk about, you know, the

dream team, like, okay, that's just a buzzword now they, they actually

built a, a dream team of people who.

Love their work and feel connected to our industry and to something

greater than our industry.

You know, they believe that what our company is doing is making the

world a better place in our way.

And they believe that, and they're proud of that.

And you can't buy that.

You, there's no amount of money you can pay someone that would buy that,

that connection to something greater.

And, and they have it.

So it's, it's, you know, my job is to, my job is just to build

the content and go forth and, you know, make it, make it happen.

And, and they do.

You know, that's great.

Well done to you,

Thank

Mike, if you had to describe your overall marketing philosophy,

, how would you describe that?

What would that be?

I,

Build authority, build credibility, connect on a level, um, that resonates.

Your audience, um, and stop talking about your products.

Stop talking about your company in, in an exclusive content.

Um, look over the horizon.

Uh, and, and, and I, I compare, I don't compare us to Nike, but

Nike's a great poster child.

For an example,

Hmm.

I can't think of ever seeing a Nike ad commercial that talked about arch support

or the design of the eyelets on the laces

Hmm

or even style.

They celebrate athletes.

Some of their ads, you don't even see a shoe,

hmm.

but they celebrate athletes and athleticism.

Red Bull doesn't talk about its refreshing tastes.

First of all, I don't think it's refreshing taste, but they don't

talk about what it tastes like.

Um.

They celebrate extreme sports.

Um, Coca-Cola, um,

kind of connects at an emotional level.

Um, you know, it's, uh, when they came up with the polar bear ad at

Christmas time, they connected.

They don't, they don't have anything to do with polar bears, but somehow

they made this emotional connection.

I've read that when, um, in, in the thirties or forties maybe Coca-Cola

wanted to beef up their, advertise their, their sales in the wintertime

because they were selling refreshing Coca-Cola, you know, during the summer.

But people in, in the winter refreshing is, doesn't land.

So they, um, hired a, uh, advertising firm out of New York to, well, actually

I think it was out of Wisconsin, to create an image of Santa Claus.

hmm

Which was dressed in their image in red Coca-Cola Red.

Prior to that, Santa's, there was no universal color, uh, of Santa's outfit.

Right.

Um, if Pepsi had come up with an ad, Santa could have been blue today, right?

Um, but they connected Christmas with Coca-Cola 'cause they had Santa drinking

a Coca-Cola, and they added some weight to Santa and they made 'em jolly.

They put red cheeks on 'em, and, and they created this image of Santa Claus,

Hmm.

which has remained intact today.

The prior images of Santa Claus was all over the map from scary, almost

like p pedophile looking Santa clauses, you know, from the, the 18 hundreds,

Yeah.

uh, old Saint Nicholas, um, to the modern version that, that was

Coca-Cola, uh, wanting to connect on a emotional level to society.

And they changed.

They had a huge influence on, on a, on a major holiday.

In fact, before Coca-Cola ran that campaign, Thanksgiving was the

biggest holiday, no, not Thanksgiving.

Um, another holiday was the biggest holiday in the US at

that time wasn't, oh, Easter.

Easter was by far the most celebrated religious holiday in the us.

It became Christmas after the Coca-Cola campaign.

Know, did it have anything to do with it?

I think it did.

I don't think we know for sure.

But, um, you know, basically advertising, anthropologists

all, all believe that story.

So it just, that's what I want to do.

That's a very long answer to your very short question, but I, I wanna be able to

connect on a different level and influence our industry, um, in a positive way.

hmm.

So does this tie back to what you said at the beginning of the

episode about conscious marketing?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think conscious marketing, um, is to connect on.

Hmm.

An intellectual or an emotional level on a value added level.

And then that leads to another thing I coined, which I found out was already

coined, which I called guided discovery.

And that's where we provide the data and the facts in a

non-biased, non-commercial manner.

And then the consumer connects the dots.

So we just provide all the information.

We don't make the claim, we are the solution to your problem.

We say, this is the we under, this is our understanding of

the problem you're having.

And they go, oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm having.

Right?

And here's the cause of those problems.

And here are best practice mitigation strategies, not our, not our stuff, just

best practice mitigation strategies.

If one does this and this and this.

That addresses that issue.

That solves that problem.

Mm-hmm.

Then they, they go, you guys do stuff like that?

Yeah, yeah.

And others, but you know, that's, you know, they come up with

a solution guided discovery.

So we're, we're their tour guide, we're their, we're their, um,

docent, you know, in, in a museum.

We're the ones taking 'em around, showing them all the history,

all the science behind it.

Hmm.

And then they come up with their own conclusion, which hopefully is us.

It doesn't have to be, but hopefully it's us.

Um, and it usually is.

Um, but they have to do it.

One thing I've learned today is that

young people,

Hmm.

and you know, you're getting old when you start any conversation with kids

these days, I'm now officially my father.

Um, but young people today

are not customers.

They join tribes.

Look at the most successful companies on the planet.

I'll say Apple.

'cause I'm, I'm a Mac guy, but, but I'll say Apple, even

though they're less so today.

But how many times do you go in front of an Apple store?

Three days before the newest iPhone's coming out And there are people camping.

'cause they want to be the first a hundred people to get it right.

They could wait a week and get it shipped to 'em for free.

But, but, you know, they're, they're super fans and they join the Apple tribe.

They wear the merch, you know, they advertise Nike, same thing.

People wear the swoosh on their baseball cap or their shirt.

Uh, they join the tribe.

It's not just a, a customer.

They join a tribe.

Patagonia, there are a number of brands where people are joining tribes and,

and once someone joins your tribe, once they think, they discover you through

guided discovery, it's their choice.

They're like, oh my God, I found the solution.

It's.

X, y, z company.

Um, they've got this, that'll do it.

They will fall on their sword over your brand.

They will buy your merch or wear your merch.

They will fight with management to get your product approved and

get the purchase order signed.

Um, we don't have to do that.

They do that because they've joined your tribe.

And if we can get to that level of fierce loyalty with our customers, which we have

in the last 10 years, not before, um, then our customers now become partners

with us when we were leading on just all the obnoxious advertising and we'll

beat any price and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll discount aggressively

so our competitors don't get it.

We attracted the worst customers, the most toxic customers.

We attracted people who only led with price.

They would buy.

We sell very sophisticated machines.

They require care and maintenance, which they would do none of.

So they would have.

Issues with their machine, blame us, force us to fix it even out of warranty

for free, um, or pressure us to do so.

And we were so afraid of getting a bad reputation, we would do it.

So we made almost no money, if any, on the sale.

And then we lose money on the support, and that's the type of customer we attracted.

Um, but you know, Hanson's, law of Solubility for your chemical engineer,

viewers and listeners, Hanson's Law of Solubility is like, attracts like, and

uh, I think like attracts, like in many ways when we put forward, uh, a higher

octave education based, value based, um, uh, accurate, non-commercial information,

we attract a different type of client.

We don't attract people who are just leading with price.

We attract people who are seeking a solution to a problem

which they believe we have.

And at that point.

I don't wanna say any price will do, but the price is five, five

steps down on their priority.

Um, it's there, but it's not number one.

And they maintain their equipment.

They, they communicate with us about product improvement,

suggestions and things like that.

They become our partners all because we change the way we do our outreach.

We are attracting an entirely different level of customer, um, that in some

instances join our tribe and feel part of our tribe and wanna see our tribe succeed

Mm-hmm.

and want to tell people they're part of our tribe.

It, it's just an amazing 180 degree, uh, shift in how we put

out the message and the results of what we attract with that message.

You get what you put out.

And if we put out obnoxious stuff, we attract obnoxious customers.

If we put out education, high level stuff, we attract people seeking answers, seeking

people wanting to be educated, and people with, you know, a higher level of, of,

um, of partnership than we did before.

No, that's, you're, you're absolutely right.

I love what you're saying.

It's very good.

Mike, thank you so much for this conversation.

It's been really great.

And I really love actually how your journey shows that podcasting isn't

just about downloads, but it's very much about building that trust, that

authority, and a long-term presence.

So thank you so much for being so candid today with your, with your story.

Well, thank you Sadaf, for inviting me on the show.

And, and, and for what you do.

I mean, you're doing the exact same thing, right?

You have a business, you work in a business, and, and

this, you know, at no point.

Have we talked about your business and, and, uh, or specifically

mine, you know, so because it, that, that part doesn't matter.

What, what matters is you're doing what you're doing, gaining your

authority and, and, uh, helping others, um, in, in this space.

And, um, kudos to you.

So keep it up.

Thank you, Mike.

Thank you.

If people want to find out a little bit more about you and check out your work,

including both your shows Reliability Matters, and the Reluctant Entrepreneur,

where should they go to do that?

Um, the, for Reliability matters, they can go to, uh, reliabilitymatterspodcast.com.

And for a reluctant entrepreneur, they can go to reluctantentrepreneurpodcast.com.

Um, not hard to, if you can remember all those words Yeah, then it makes sense.

Uh, and then just for, uh, for me, uh, mikekonrad.com.

Konrad with a k.

And then my company name.

If, if you have, you know, fellow nerds like me in your audience

that wanna know what, what in the electronics world does Mike do?

Uh, it's aqueous tech, aqueous like meaning water, uh, A-Q-U-E-O-U-S

aqueoustech.com and that'll, that'll suck you down the, uh, technical rabbit hole.

Awesome.

To those listening, thank you so much for being here.

All the links that Mike has just mentioned will be in the show

description, and here's what I hope you take away from Mike's journey.

There are many ways to grow a business, but the ones that last

are rooted in trust, visibility, and a willingness to evolve.

So thanks for listening, and bye for now.