I’m delighted to share insights from my latest podcast with Toby Buckle about leadership, management and movement. 

We open up conversation of conscious movement in the workplace. Body language and state (emotional) management has a profound effect on us and our performance. 

A concept I have is that we don’t live in a body, we THROUGH a body. I like to help people define how they can move well and feel strong plus alleviate stress by moving and staying connected to their body. So much stress is based on psychological threats but it’s experienced in the body.

Toby is also a Tai Chi teacher and he explained to me how we can use that lens to view senior people’s activity with. Toby says that post pandemic, there’s even less movement based on working practices. Video calls are an example of we are moving less compared to when we walk and talk on a voice call. Perhaps that’s something you can consider in your own working day.

There’s a brilliant exercise we go through based on 3 zones – Comfort, Stretch and Panic. These can be done as imaginary zones on the floor you can actually ’step’ into. Toby explains this this process and it’s super helpful to help understand how to get into the ‘stretch’ zone where you can grow. Coming out of our head only and connect to the embodied experience is so powerful.

Tai Chi, much like Yoga, teaches how to be grounded and become present and able to take on things when we are grounded. These principles can be learned through movement practices. Our body happens before our head (most of the time) and we can harness this with self awareness to connect better with others, especially as a leader.

We talk about the distinction between motivating and demotivating strategies - How this can work for you or against you. Building in buffer zones to reflect and have space between meetings and ideally include some movement, even if you’re watering the plants in the office (Toby’s real example). My suggestion is “how can you move more?” Looking at what you’re doing and not doing can be revealing and help you strategise to move more on a daily basis.

What are you role modelling to your team and your family by your choices around movement? How do you describe yourself? Our identity statements are ones to watch. Toby uses a big ‘away-from’ thought to help motivate him. All these factors play into making new choices around movement and exercise and thinking in long-term timelines will be factors that create a formula for healthy habit building.

Get in touch with Toby

You can find all Toby's details and info on this website.

Get in touch with Sal

If this episode has caught your attention and you wish to learn more, then please contact me. I offer a free 20 min call where we can discuss a challenge your facing and how I may be able to help you

Hello and welcome.

2

Today I'm discussing management and

movement in the same breath and I'm

3

joined by Toby Buckle to discuss

this very important area that both

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of us work with and both have seen.

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Now Toby's been in the field a long

time, more than 15 years working

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with leaders and management and

he specializes as a facilitator.

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and a whole host of corporate spaces.

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But what's really interesting for

everyone today is to think about

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leadership, management and movement.

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And often we don't speak about

movement in the same breath.

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We have our business heads on and we

think about all the cognitive stuff.

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And yeah, Toby and I have a lot

of experience around the body.

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movement, leadership, and

how they come together.

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So this is what we're going to dive into.

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Toby, welcome.

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Toby Buckle: Thanks.

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How lovely to be here.

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Thank you very much for having me on.

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It's great.

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Sal Jefferies: It's great to have you on.

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let's unpack movement.

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It's a massive term.

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I use the word movement now to hold

the description between exercise

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from cardiovascular exercise to

strength exercise and mobility to

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also, how do we move in the day?

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Whether you are a sedentary, a

knowledge worker at a computer.

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Or if you are getting up, moving around,

taking, activity through your day.

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So I encompass the whole, how does

our physiology actively work from

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the gentle to the more extreme?

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What's your description of a movement?

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Toby Buckle: I'd agree it covers quite

a broad spectrum and I think there's

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a danger when you start talking about

movement that people just think of

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the extreme end of all that must mean

going for a run or that must mean

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going, doing some exercise or a team

sport or something like that when

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actually it can be quite small micro

moments of movement which really help.

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and I think for me, movement is

about actually thinking and being

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conscious about your body rather than

just sitting in it all day without

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really thinking, what am I doing?

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Have I moved it?

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Have I stretched it?

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Have I done anything with my body today

apart from as really subconscious level?

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So movement for me is talking about

movement in a conscious sense.

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What are you consciously

doing with your body?

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Sal Jefferies: Lovely.

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Yeah.

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Really nice description.

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Something that came to my mind

recently was that for a long time,

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we've often been suggested that

we live in a body like we actually

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live in this thing called the body.

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And, and I challenged that description.

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And I think we live through a body.

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We, we experienced the world

through our senses, through actions,

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and they all come through our

body to some degree or another.

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And of course, how our

body is functioning.

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Whether that's dynamic, well energized,

or heavy, lethargic, not well, ill,

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they have a huge effect on our outputs.

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So those of us in the management space,

leadership, business, how your business

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is, how you are functioning and operating

is really strongly influenced by the

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state of your physicality and your body.

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Toby, tell me a little more about

how you've got to this place.

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You've been in the field a

long time, working with lots of

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corporates and lots of people.

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How you got into understanding

working with management and

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finessing people and bringing the

element of movement into that work?

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Toby Buckle: So I got into this because

I was a manager myself and then a senior

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manager and I had managers working for me

and I got really interested in Why some

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of them were good at it, and some of them

weren't, and I went on lots of training

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for myself, which involved various things.

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And one of the things was NLP, which

has got quite a large element of what

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are you doing with your body in terms of

body language, how you're communicating,

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but also in terms of state management.

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So state management is that thing you

were just alluding to in terms of how

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you're feeling, how you're working,

and that affects your performance.

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So that was my first inkling

into, Oh, there's more to this

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than just thinking through.

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It's not just a head thing we do.

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It's a body thing we do in

communicating in being, and

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actually that has a profound effect.

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So I've over the years then

got into thinking about my

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own movement, my own body.

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I've studied Tai Chi now for

about 15, 16 years, which was

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my entry into discovering.

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I knew very little about how I

actually operated within my body.

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and.

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I've done lots of sports throughout

my life as well, which I've brought

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in elements of that to lots of

people because there's a really good

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analogy between sports and how to

manage people, how to lead people.

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So I've brought those elements of

what does things like Tai Chi teach

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us in terms of state management,

presence, being able to be assertive.

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What do they look like in terms of

a physicality for people as well

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as thinking about, okay, so what is

your general fitness energy levels?

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say about you as a manager and

leader at this point, particularly

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I coach a lots of CEOs who are in

really high stressful positions.

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I had one who was, CEO for quite a

large, charity and that was quite

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a stressful position because he

had people all over the world.

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in Darfur or Turkey where there's

earthquakes or wars or, and, and that

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stress was really building up for him.

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And what he found was he wasn't

finding any way to dissipate it.

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So we talked it through and the

thing he came up with, I used to

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run and I don't run very often.

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So maybe if I just ran for 15 minutes

every day, because that's all he could

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manage, that would make a difference.

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And it transformed his resilience levels.

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for doing that job.

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And that was a real item.

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That was one of the early people

I coached and I was like, ah,

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perhaps more people need this.

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Sal Jefferies: I'm nodding along because

I'm like, yeah, I totally get that.

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That's, that's so interesting.

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And it's curious, isn't it?

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So some people might be listening,

thinking, yeah, I'm, I'm into active.

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I'm moving.

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I'm doing stuff and some maybe less.

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So we don't want to get caught up in

judgments here and labels, but what

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we understand is the human body.

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primarily is designed to move.

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It's been around for a very long time.

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It's an elegant, powerful system, very

dynamic, capable of lots of things.

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Now, while we might all not be an elite

athlete or hepsathlon or something

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like that, we all can function well.

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And what that means to each of us,

I think is important to define.

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I love what you said there

about dealing with stress.

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It comes up in my work, certainly

in coaching, people who are founders

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or running their own organizations.

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Stress is everywhere.

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And stress is this kind of catch

all term, and I think the problem

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with umbrella terms is that we don't

nuance it and understand what it is.

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And we also think it's all a

head game, and therein lies

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a massive misunderstanding.

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Stress is a physiological

response, first and foremost.

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Yep.

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So our nervous system is

hardwired to look for threats.

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That's it's code one.

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It's always designed that way.

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That threat in old times might have been

the weather, an animal, hunter gatherer,

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ancient times of human development.

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In modern world, it's, it's an

email coming in from a disgruntled

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client or something like that.

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And it becomes a psychological

threat point being same part of

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your nervous system triggers.

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And, and then we're in a cascade of,

stress hormones, physiology, and then

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the thinking that goes with that.

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And there also lies the thing

I want to really unpack today

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is so much of this is physical.

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So much stress is physical.

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So much experience is

physically experienced.

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If we don't address that and stay stuck

in our heads and hands up, I used to be

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in my head a lot, then we really just

not gonna, not only not perform well,

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but we're going to suffer a lot more.

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And, and I love what you said about your,

your, your client there, just getting

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back into some form of activity, running

for this person, and how that literally

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changed his, his whole way of being.

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So that's wonderful.

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Toby, you've, you've told me some various

things, stories about other people.

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Perhaps you could say a little more

around, things that you're seeing

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about not just movement, but how the

integration of body and mind or movement

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and management are working in the,

in the recent times that you've been

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working with people, perhaps past the

pandemic, because of course, so much

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of the pandemic really shifted us.

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What have you seen in the more last couple

of years that that's relevant to this?

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Toby Buckle: static even more,

because they're hybrid working

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or they're working from home.

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and they are literally sitting

at their desks on zoom calls

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or the team's calls all day.

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whereas before we're in the office,

they at least used to move to go

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to meeting rooms or to go get their

sandwich down the road and have

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a walk and talk with somebody.

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a lot of that has disappeared for a lot

of people and, there seems to be this

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thing come out now where it's great that

we've got video calls in many ways, but

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it's not great that actually it's become

the default means of communication, I

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think, because actually what happens is

when there's a video call, people think,

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oh, I've got to sit down and take this.

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Whereas if you're on a phone call, quite

often you can move around, even if it's

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just walking around the room you're in.

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or, if you're careful in a safe

space, you can walk and talk.

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With a phone called in the headphones

on right that's disappeared for a lot

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of people because of the nature of

video conferencing video calls So I

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see that actually we've probably become

even more static and less movement

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is happening as a result of that

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Sal Jefferies: That's really interesting.

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Unsurprising.

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It's something which I've seen a

little bit, but I know you work a

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lot more in with a lot more people

and groups that have seen that.

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And the pandemic is curious.

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I had another guest on the clinical

psychologist a while back was talking

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about these sort of gaps between if

you were staying at home or you were

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working from home before and perhaps a

little more introverted, you're really

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hard to get people back out of that that

that groove that's happened since the

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pandemic and the lockdown experience.

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That said, these are some of

the things Behavioral patterns.

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And as with all behavior, any

behavior is a learned experience.

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you don't grow up, come into the world,

become a CEO, you come as a baby,

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you learn about life, about movement.

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And so everything's a learned

experience for all humans.

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And we can forget that actually everything

is a learned experience and it's a

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cultural influence about how we are.

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So I really curious when you're saying

about how Tai Chi helped you become

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more conscious and as a conscious,

business person, You can look at these

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things such as, are you sedentary?

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Are you active?

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How are your energy levels?

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Are they up or down?

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Because it's consciousness first

and foremost that means you're

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going to make some healthy changes.

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How, how do you bring that understanding

from Tai Chi and being a conscious person

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into some of the work you've been doing?

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Toby Buckle: of exercises I do

and I like to do with people.

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So one of them is, using the circles

of, comfort, stretch and panic is

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a, is a good description of them.

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And so laying out these circles,

you can do it just on paper and it'd

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be a head exercise where you just

write what's in your comfort zone.

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What's a bit of a stretch in the challenge

for you and what's actually a panic or

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you procrastinate about, and you can

just write it down on a bit of paper.

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But what I've realized is it's

much more effective if I can get

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people to actually stand in those

imaginary circles on the floor.

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Connect with the feeling of

what it's, what does it feel

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like to be in my comfort zone?

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What things are actually

in my comfort zone?

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How does that feel?

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Where do I feel that?

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Where does it feel like boredom?

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Where does it feel like

okay ness of comfort zone?

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And get that in touch with

their body response to that.

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And then I get them to step out into

the stretch zone and feel what's it

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like when it's a bit of a challenge.

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When there is some growth, when

there is some learning, get them to

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feel in their bodies where that is

and what that sensation's And then

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with a bit of caution, don't, get

them to step into what's a more of

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a panic, a little panic for you?

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Or that thing where the butterflies

literally in your stomach, that phrase,

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what does that actually feel like?

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Is it butterflies in the stomach?

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Or, how does it feel when you're

outside of the sweat zone for you?

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And then I get them to think

about things that they can do.

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to step back into the strep zone

and take it literally step with

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it back into the strep zone.

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And you can see whether they're actually

cognizant with that because they'll

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hesitate otherwise with that step.

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Because the physicality of taking it

into a different zone shows up for them.

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And so I can read people with my Tai

Chi skills in terms of what their body

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responses are doing that, and I can map

and pace them and talk about the things

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whilst they're doing an activity like

that, which is really, really useful

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and gives you so much more information

about what's going on and gives them a

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much better understanding of themselves.

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Sal Jefferies: I absolutely love that.

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That takes me back to my

psychotherapeutic training.

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I did training in both cognitive

and somatic psychotherapy.

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And somatic for those who don't know,

Soma is a Greek word for the body.

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so it means something all physiological.

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and of course a lot of

psychology is very heady.

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we can spend a lot of time

in cognition and that's fine.

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But you don't experience

life through cognition alone.

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There's the emotional strata and the

physical strata of our experience.

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And what you've said there is, is

exactly what we're alluding to, isn't it?

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Come out of that head, come into the

experience of the body, those physical

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expressions, people call them emotions,

they're physical expressions, as

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well as biological, and experience

what that's actually like for you.

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Not an idea, a concept, but a

real lived embodied experience.

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That's such a great, great example.

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How else does Tai Chi I don't

want to come to this because, I've

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been doing yoga for a long time.

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How else has Tai Chi informed

your practice perhaps as

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a professional yourself?

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And what have you learned about

your body through using Tai

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Chi as a movement discipline?

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What have you learned from

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that?

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Toby Buckle: useful when I am in

situations where I'm slightly taken

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out of my comfort zone myself.

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and I use the Tai Chi practices grounding,

which is feeling your feet on the ground,

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breathing into the belly, letting go

of the tension in the jaw and getting

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into what they call a Tai Chi state.

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But actually I call it my training or

facilitating state as much as anything or

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coaching state because it's a state where.

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I'm up, I'm there, I'm aware.

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It's not completely chilled and relaxed.

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It's actually, I'm there, I'm present

and I'm able to take on things in a way

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which I'm not if I'm not in that state.

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So having that quick access

to that is really useful.

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And the other thing is, is some

of the principles of Tai Chi.

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So in Tai Chi, when somebody's coming

towards you, the first principle

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is, is you listen and understand.

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the pressure that's coming

into the part of the body.

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And then only when you listen and

understand do you start to transform

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it and you take that pressure and you

move it away from the centre of you

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so it's no longer threatening to you.

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And that's interesting because

that's how I interpret.

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People coming at me almost verbally.

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It's like I need to listen.

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I need to understand before I start

to try and transform and take it away

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from directly being at my center.

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And so I can use those principles

really strongly of how can you

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ground yourself in the moment?

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And I teach people how to do this.

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I think it's one of the things that

should be taught in schools, to be honest.

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How can you ground yourself to take

yourself out of this res like reaction

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response to be able to actually respond?

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And your body will react quicker than your

brain, so you need to manage your body.

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And sataichi's taught me how

to manage my body, to a degree.

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I'm not saying I'm perfect.

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but it's taught me to manage my body in

a way which I just didn't have before.

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Sal Jefferies: That's such a useful

understanding the principle from, from

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touching about grounding being your

body and what you said there about, your

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body's reacting before your head and.

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It's so funny, isn't it?

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In our, in our culture, we think, Oh,

we're very much, we're thinking we're,

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we're very cognizant, very analytic.

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Our body is happening before our

thinking mind to a large extent.

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I think of the tennis player.

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So it's well known that a tennis player

does not see the ball coming at them.

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It's far too fast for a, a cognitive,

Oh, here comes the ball on the left.

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so I think it's point.

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3, 000th of a second.

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It's something like this.

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I did study it years ago.

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The body is, is picking up on this.

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So there are subtle tells.

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So if you were looking across a net at

a tennis player, an elite tennis player,

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there'll be a way that the movements

happening in the body, the rotation,

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and are what's called extra reception,

which is awareness of what is around

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us is often below conscious thinking.

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And it's such an important point.

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If we, if we don't know, so

we've really got three levels

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of understanding the world.

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I'll simplify this.

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Got extra reception,

awareness of what's around us.

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So people, movement and it could be

a car coming towards you quickly.

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It's all picking up often

below consciousness.

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We've got interoception, which

is the feeling in our body.

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So if you're having butterflies as

you described in your perhaps taking

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someone into a slightly panicky,

scary place, those butterflies.

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your information signals in your body

go up to the brain as interoception.

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What's happening in the

viscera, in the body.

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And then we've got perception, which is

how do we filter and make sense of what

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on earth is that stuff that's happening?

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Is my coworker, colleague,

client, having a go at me?

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Do I not feel safe?

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Is it the fact that I'm

worried about this situation?

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I've got tense belly and I'm misreading.

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I'm filtering the perceptional

information through differently.

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there's a lot to be looked at here.

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And I think what I really want to share

is that so much happens mediated through

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our body, as you've alluded to already.

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that we need to be very careful of.

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If we're an analytic person, you are

missing the fact that your body is,

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is part of that information as well.

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It's a really important part.

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And I taught yoga, for a long time.

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And I saw some of the practices

from that coming into presence.

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Being with a difficult sensation, being

able to get out of your head, such as

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how long is this posture going to last?

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It's killing me.

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That's our thoughts are running.

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And then of course, after a

while, okay, I'm, I'm with that.

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So these Eastern disciplines

really teach us a lot.

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Toby Buckle: And I think that's

really interesting to spread it out

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to actually it's, it's awareness of

others and it's awareness of yourself.

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I love that.

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And it's awareness of what's going on.

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And I think we in this Western

culture particularly often delete so

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much information and we're just not.

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paying attention to it at all.

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And as soon as you are aware, like for

example, I know when I'm slightly tense,

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my left hand starts to clench slightly.

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And now I'm, because I'm aware of that,

I'll often be in meetings or do whatever,

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and I'll go, Oh, that's interesting.

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My left hand's just gone slightly tense.

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I'm now aware that I'm slightly tense.

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And now I'll be going,

is that okay or not?

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Okay.

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Without, just being aware

of things for yourself.

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is wonderful.

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But that thing of noticing others as

well, because once you become aware of

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your own body, you notice others, but

you've got to do that with caution and

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go, okay, so they're moving in a certain

way, they're doing certain things.

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And we tend to project what

that would mean onto them.

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And there's all these things out there

on the internet or wherever about what

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this body language means, this and that.

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And it's a bit like, oh,

they folded their arms.

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That must mean they're defensive.

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And it's Or they've got cold hands.

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what does it really mean?

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And so actually paying attention and

understanding people's movements and

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what they're doing and getting to

understand their habitual movements

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and when are they like that?

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When are they like this?

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That's the depth of relationship I

think you need to start building when

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you're in management and leadership

is not only understanding how somebody

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thinks but how they respond and you can

only do that by understanding the body.

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Sal Jefferies: Lovely.

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Yeah.

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Really powerful.

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And it's such a key point.

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Some of my recent episodes have

had guests, also, really high

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level professionals like yourself,

Toby, saying a similar message.

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We need human connection.

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Yes, we'll have video

calls, and it's great.

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Remote working, it can have a

really good place, but not at the

399

expense of real human connection.

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We're meant to meet with social species.

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We're hardwired.

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We've got neurons in the brain

called mirror neurons, which

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are designed for empathy.

404

We are hardwired to be with each other.

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There's nothing wrong with technology.

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It allows us to do great things.

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But we don't want to become a slave to it.

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Otherwise, then you've just,

you're no longer leading.

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Leadership starts with self leadership.

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So it's really important

to own that understanding.

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And, and of course, really good leadership

starts with self awareness and that is a

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mind and a body and a presence experience.

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and of course it's

cultivating it continuously.

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It's not, you don't want one course

like, Oh, I'm really aware now, you keep.

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Keep the work going.

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For those who's thinking, okay, cool.

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This all sounds good.

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Yeah.

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I want to do some more body

related stuff, but I'm so busy.

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I haven't got time.

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I hear these, reasons.

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Let's be gentle.

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These reasons.

424

Now I get it.

425

And I've got a lot of clients

that are super, super busy.

426

And I understand that time is squeezed.

427

It is squeezed for a lot of

people and we have to make.

428

careful decisions on

how we spend that time.

429

How would you, and how are you going

about suggesting to people you're

430

working with about, okay, we need

to integrate the body and we need to

431

create some movement work of some kind.

432

How are you starting to bring this

in so people are not only able to

433

do it, but they're bypassing any

resistance that might come up?

434

Toby Buckle: It's a good question.

435

And I think it varies for individual

to individual quite a lot, but there's

436

some general things which help.

437

So in terms of people not doing things,

I think of demotivation strategies

438

as opposed to motivation strategies.

439

So rather than how can you motivate

people to do these things, I think

440

about, how are they stopping themselves?

441

What's the kind of formula, the

almost the X, Y, Z for them to

442

demotivate themselves to not move.

443

So it might be, Oh, it's too big.

444

It's too difficult.

445

I'm not feeling any energy right now.

446

And I've got all this other stuff to do.

447

If I put those threes in order, plus,

plus, plus equals not going to move.

448

And so it's actually, it's working

with some of those and going

449

actually, how can you shrink maybe

the size of it if that's the thing?

450

And do the smallest amount.

451

What's the micro stuff you can do?

452

I know you were talking in the previous

podcast about, chair stretches and, how

453

you can just do stuff in your chair.

454

So you don't even have to leave

the chair to do some stuff

455

if that's where you're at.

456

But I think for me, what I just

suggest is how can you change your

457

diary or get the people who put

your stuff in the diary, which is

458

usually what it is for my clients.

459

how can you get them to actually build in.

460

Buffer zones, so that at the end of

every meeting you get a chance to

461

stretch and reflect because one of

the things which we don't often have

462

is enough reflection time anyway.

463

So rather than going, okay, so there's

an hour meeting followed by an hour

464

meeting followed by an hour meeting,

you go, actually, no, it's a 50 minute

465

meeting and then I have a 10 minute break.

466

And in that break, I can stand

up, I can go somewhere, I can do

467

something just moving a little bit.

468

If you're working from home.

469

Go and make a cup of tea and walk

around, if you're in the office, go

470

and just, go somewhere that requires

a little bit of movement because

471

anything is better than nothing.

472

If you just break it up a little bit.

473

if you're in the office, I like to find

excuses, to go and do some movement.

474

so I used to when I was a manager.

475

actually go around and water

the plants on our office floor.

476

And people were like, it's crazy,

you're a senior manager, why

477

are you watering the plants?

478

And I'd be like, two reasons.

479

One, gets me moving.

480

Second reason, it gets me to

incidentally meet everyone on the floor.

481

Because I'm just walking

around without purpose.

482

Just for half an hour.

483

So it's actually, how can you

build in a kind of covert and

484

over objective around movement?

485

So that actually you're moving

and doing something else.

486

So I talked before about, maybe

have a phone call where you go for

487

a walk and talk, or if you've got

a meeting in person with somebody,

488

suggest you go for a walk and a talk.

489

And the amount of people who

don't even do that is because they

490

just haven't thought about it.

491

I was working with a group at a university

the other week, and they've got this

492

lovely park round 15 minutes through the.

493

walkway from them and out of 30 people

zero had been to that parkland to have

494

a walk around and many of 10 or 15 years

because it just hadn't even occurred

495

that that was okay because they made

a rule in their head that it wasn't

496

okay, they told themselves a story.

497

It's not okay to do that.

498

So what I think is how can you

challenge some of the stories that

499

you've made around how you work?

500

And how can you create better stories

which involve just doing some movement?

501

Sal Jefferies: Yeah.

502

Wonderful.

503

Wonderful.

504

because it's a story and our

mind is actually a habit.

505

The story of ourself is a habit.

506

It's an elegant story that weaves together

in some, what seems a coherent fashion,

507

but it's all a clever trick of the mind.

508

So the very clever cognitive

scientists say, and you're right.

509

If we go to our work space, and

particularly if you're desk bound,

510

you're a knowledge worker, and

there's a lot of sitting involved,

511

very easy to be in that zone.

512

So it's not to say, let's not do that.

513

It's like, how can you integrate?

514

And I think the first question, and

it's a question I posed to a coaching

515

client I had, how can you move more?

516

And we basically did a brainstorm.

517

And one of the questions, and

this is one of my sort of coaching

518

go tos, is what can you do more?

519

But I also go to the other side

and say, what aren't you doing?

520

So we go through, I'm not going upstairs.

521

Okay.

522

I'm not running upstairs in London.

523

I'm taking the elevator.

524

Okay.

525

I'm getting a delivery instead

of walking to the place to

526

grab some, some food for lunch.

527

Okay.

528

So then we start to see what we can

do and also where the holes are.

529

And then there's a, there's a,

people's minds are brilliant.

530

most people in leadership manager

are very clever people, and it

531

doesn't take long to go, Hmm, okay,

I can ex, I can solve this problem.

532

I can really change this.

533

So the answer can become quickly.

534

I, I love what you said, make

it covert and make it overt.

535

It's such a great strategy,

but I think keep it simple,

536

it's such a, I had a client.

537

And I suggested she got active.

538

She seeked a PT.

539

She wasn't in my area.

540

I went really full on, of course,

not long later, got a serious injury

541

because her body wasn't conditioned.

542

And it's something I speak to

around, because I work with

543

strength and conditioning as

well, and in the physical domain.

544

There's a lot of things in the

fitness, healthy area, which

545

says, Oh, 12 weeks to a new body.

546

And it's just, it's, it might be 12

weeks to some change and that's okay.

547

And that's, that's a good thing.

548

But is it sustainable?

549

And if you're going too hard too

quick, you're pushing your muscles

550

fine, but if your soft, your

connective tissue isn't ready for it.

551

Let's start with gentle walking every day,

the stairs every day, going up and down,

552

as you said, making calls on the phone.

553

All of these pieces then become

compound interest, if you will.

554

And they build and they build and

then start to bring in, it could

555

be Tai Chi, it could be strength

and conditioning, it could be some

556

running, but layer it in a long term.

557

So I think this is one

of the things I see.

558

People want a quick win.

559

It's that simple.

560

Your body's not going anywhere,

or it's going to fail.

561

It's that simple.

562

It's not going anywhere,

or it's going to fail.

563

So what are you going to do?

564

What are you going to do?

565

And I have someone who lives with an

autoimmune condition, which can wipe

566

me out, so I know how, illness can be

really tough for people, and I know

567

it's not always easy, So I get it.

568

I really do.

569

But at every junction, it's

like, how can I move more?

570

What could I do today?

571

I think it's a really important

question to hold in one's mind.

572

Toby Buckle: And I love that bit around

sustainability because it is so common

573

for people to go, I'm just going to max

out this because I've really, they've

574

reached a point of what I call away from

motivation where they realize there's

575

a problem and they want to get as far

away from the problem as possible.

576

And then they just do it and until the

point where that diminishes and they

577

are far away enough from the problem, so

therefore I don't need to do it anymore.

578

And then, lo and behold, and a few

months later, they're back to where

579

the problem is and they move again to

try and move away from that problem.

580

And that's not a sustainable

long term strategy.

581

It's a good kickstart,

but it's not in there.

582

I think one of the elements

is that you've got to find

583

something that you enjoy doing.

584

Don't go out there and find something

which you just think oh, that's a chore.

585

It's almost like this puritanical

thing of if I'm going to do something

586

healthy, it's got to be really

like hard work and bad for me and

587

I've got to be miserable doing it.

588

And it's what?

589

Seriously, why not do something

you enjoy and you're capable

590

of and gives you pleasure?

591

you might have to search

around a fair bit to find that.

592

But, there's so much stuff around there.

593

It might just be put on a bit of

music and have a little boogie on

594

your own in the kitchen, right?

595

That's a, yeah, if that's your

thing, do that thing rather than

596

the thing that you've got to

go to a gym if you hate gyms.

597

What is it that'll actually work

for you in terms of enjoyment?

598

That will build in sustainability.

599

Sal Jefferies: Yeah.

600

Yeah.

601

so important.

602

Yes.

603

Find something which you certainly

don't hate is the first one.

604

I wouldn't say to that.

605

So I, a little quick story.

606

When I started yoga, so those,

those who know me from the past, I

607

taught yoga for more than a decade.

608

I took a lot of classes and

workshops and all kinds of things.

609

And quite renowned in

the area I was doing.

610

When I started it, I was awful.

611

And not only was I awful at

it, I absolutely hated it.

612

I was like, oh this is

awful, this is horrible.

613

In terms of, I just felt awkward,

and clunky, the only bloke in the

614

class, but I did feel good afterwards.

615

And one thing I would say is that

if we have a quick win mindset,

616

that's going to cause you problems.

617

So address that straight away, but make

some capacity for staying with something.

618

So that might look like Zumba and

it might look like a dance class, or

619

it might look like a swimming club.

620

It doesn't matter, but give it a

bit a bit of time, give it a little

621

bit of time because I think we can

have this ricochet effect where

622

we're like, Oh, I didn't like it.

623

It's not for me.

624

the first time I went to a CrossFit

gym, I was absolutely intimidated.

625

I was, compared to the young

athletes I was training with,

626

I was absolutely rubbish.

627

And I was like, Oh, my ego

was really, really squashed.

628

And certainly as a man who's been brought

up on, you can't look like you fail

629

because there's shame involved with that.

630

That was not an easy place for me.

631

Thank goodness I do the work that I do.

632

And I have coaching and done years

of psychology and therapy that

633

I could be with that discomfort.

634

But what it gave me, because I allowed my

time to go, let's give it a few months and

635

see how I get on with this, as opposed to,

let's try a class and see if I like it.

636

I then went on to training four

times a week after six months and

637

completely changed my whole fitness

levels and that was in my mid forties

638

and now I train like an athlete.

639

I'm active all the time.

640

That's not to be big headed or anything.

641

It's just that's the discipline

because the discipline is love.

642

I literally love the

privilege that I can move.

643

It's just wonderful.

644

But they didn't start that way.

645

And I think this is one of the

things where I agree with you.

646

You've got to find something you like.

647

And don't totally hate it, but I

would add to that, give it a little

648

bit of time, wherever, whatever that

is, and then tie that together and,

649

and be kind to yourself as well.

650

Be kind to yourself with it.

651

Toby Buckle: I love that and I'd

agree you don't want to just go once

652

and say it's not for you, right?

653

That's it.

654

Unless it really, really,

really, really isn't right.

655

But you do need to give it a while.

656

And, my analogy is, food.

657

So my wife's a nutritionist.

658

And she talks about actually when

you're trying new food, you need to

659

try it about seven or eight times to

overcome that natural body reaction

660

of not liking it necessarily.

661

And which is really useful if you've

got kids, to realize, you can say,

662

you've only tried it four times.

663

You've got to give it another four times.

664

And then if you really don't

like it, then, then give up.

665

But it's kind of like, what's the

number you need to do before you

666

actually go through that bit of, this

is uncomfortable, this is a stretch, to

667

actually going, okay, now I can do this, I

can do this, I can do this, this is okay.

668

Sal Jefferies: Yeah, that's so important.

669

I believe that taste buds change

every 14 days if I'm correct.

670

So the recycling process of our

cells in a body, I think the taste

671

buds are 14 days approximately.

672

So yeah, absolutely.

673

If you taste something like, let's say,

you eat a very western diet full of

674

fructose and rubbish and you have lots

of veg, it's gonna taste a bit weird.

675

But if you then stay on that kind of

largely a plant based diet for a while.

676

Suddenly it tastes completely different

and you go and maybe have a, a ready

677

meal and God, it just has chemicals.

678

So yeah, for sure.

679

That's a big one.

680

And we're also talking about, I

think we're talking about a blending

681

to some version of you that's new.

682

So we're very homeostatic,

us human beings.

683

We like to stay with what we know.

684

It's how we're hardwired.

685

You've already alluded to this,

bringing people out of the comfort

686

zone, into the stretch zone.

687

Life is on that edge there.

688

That's where the cool stuff is.

689

And just stepping into that stretch shown

in many domains, whether it's cognitive,

690

whether it's professional or physical.

691

And I think the more we stay in comfort

is actually, it becomes, I've seen it with

692

certainly people in my personal sphere.

693

The more we shrink is the more

intimidating the world is.

694

The less we move, the more pain

and discomfort our body has.

695

And the less active we are,

the less energy we've got.

696

And it's, it's like it chases you

down to a place you don't want to be.

697

So I think when we get comfortable,

we mean with that discomfort, just a

698

little discomfort, like pushing those

edges a bit, trying some new stuff,

699

being okay with being a bit rubbish at

something for a while allows us the, I

700

think the permission to really change

who we are and adapt and to grow.

701

Toby Buckle: I love that.

702

And I think another thing for me is the

fact that you're not just doing it for

703

yourself, you're role modeling for others.

704

And actually quite a lot of managers

and leaders, if you tell them, actually

705

don't do it for yourself, do it for

your organization, they'll actually...

706

Do it because that's

their thing is, Oh, yeah.

707

Okay.

708

Yeah.

709

It's not indulgent for me.

710

It's actually, I need to do this for the

people at work within my organization

711

to show that actually this stuff

is important and it's a priority.

712

If you want a healthy, energized,

effective workforce, make sure they

713

move more often, make sure they

eat regularly, make sure they rest.

714

it's the symbol stuff.

715

Why aren't you role modeling that?

716

Sal Jefferies: Yeah, that's so powerful.

717

And it makes me think about, so if I'm

sitting in a position of leadership and

718

I've got, an organization of people,

what don't I want would be a question

719

in my mind as a leader and a manager.

720

What don't I want?

721

I don't want people off sick.

722

I don't want people disengaged.

723

I don't want people underperforming.

724

And I don't want burnout because

not only is that bad for our

725

business, it's bad for our people.

726

And that's just bad for everyone.

727

So It's both, isn't it?

728

It's like, where are we moving

towards with a movement led thinking

729

approach to life and business?

730

And also, what are we moving away from?

731

What does that actually,

what are the payoffs?

732

What are the rewards?

733

And there's plenty there.

734

There really is plenty there.

735

And, there's many people, like

Peter Atiyah is one of them.

736

American Doctor, he's got a book out and

does a, he's very high profile on social

737

media and he speaks a lot about how

movement is, if you're not moving there's

738

so many issues around cardiovascular

issues, cancers, diabetes, all the

739

things that no one wants, but there's

too much of it around and one of the...

740

Ways of moving away from that is

our functioning body, which is

741

moving towards healthy, active,

strong, dynamic, and mobile.

742

And it starts from the

first step, doesn't it?

743

it starts from, I take the stairs rather

than the elevator for the next month.

744

And then maybe I will do walking

meetings instead of setting meetings.

745

The fun, and it starts layer upon

layer, but it's, if you don't

746

start, you're only going to regress.

747

And certainly when we're at midlife,

you do not want to be regressing.

748

Toby, I want to ask you, because

I know you're so hot on this.

749

Habits.

750

Because we might be thinking, this is

brilliant, I'm so on board with this.

751

But how do we build habits to make

this become a real, tangible change?

752

What's, what's your way of working

people to build these habits in?

753

Toby Buckle: The first thing I do

is look at the motivation and make

754

sure the motivation stacks up.

755

So we do a lot of What will it look

like in the future if you manage to do

756

this, You've got to have a nice positive

towards so that it's there and check in

757

what are the pros and benefits of this

And but also what's it going to cost you?

758

So people often miss that bit out

because they're really keen to

759

just get the positives But actually

there's a question which goes in

760

there an ecology check and go.

761

Okay.

762

So what's this going to cost you?

763

to make sure they're not embarking

on something which is going to be

764

too onerous and cost them too much in

terms of other stuff, relationships

765

and all sorts of stuff can go, right?

766

And so checking in with that

piece first around the motivation

767

and then making it simple.

768

I like what you're saying

about, simple steps.

769

So break it down to a manageable chunk

size, something that's doable within

770

the space and time available, and then

finding the right time of day for it is

771

often just the gold dust, which is there.

772

So I've got a wellbeing habit, which

is I brush my teeth twice a day.

773

I don't know if you do,

but I find it's good.

774

I think most people have managed that

wellbeing habit by our age, right?

775

and it's things like that where

people go, how do I do that?

776

You don't have to think about it.

777

You don't set an alarm.

778

You don't set a a point in

your diary to do your teeth.

779

You've chained it into.

780

I do mine after I've had my breakfast,

before I have my shower, it fits in that

781

slot, that's when I do it, without fail,

that's when I do it, it fits that gap.

782

So finding where the gap is in your

schedule or your day, where that

783

bit of movement fits, that habit.

784

And it's the same for any habits, to

be honest, if you don't find the slot

785

which fits where it's naturally, that's

just where it happens, that's good.

786

And then the bit is to try it, give

it a whirl, and then have a review

787

period where you give yourself feedback

on how's that going, as opposed to,

788

I tried that and then I gave up.

789

Actually, what's your review period?

790

How are you going to go, okay,

That's worked for this long, but

791

then it didn't work on that occasion

and what was different about that?

792

Why did that happen?

793

What do I need to do differently?

794

Those simple feedback questions

for yourself or get somebody

795

else to do it for you.

796

An accountability partner is brilliant

for, habits as you probably know.

797

being as that's what you

are for most people on that.

798

it's, it's one of those things

where you just teach it as not a

799

failure, but a chance for feedback.

800

That makes the golden difference

because it takes a while

801

often to get a habit to form.

802

the research doesn't show that

it's a particular length of time or

803

it's a particular amount of times.

804

It depends on the complexity of

the task and how often you're going

805

to do it over a period of time.

806

So if you're doing something

many times in the day, that will

807

become a habit quite quickly.

808

But if you're only doing it once a week,

you've got to accept it's going to take

809

a while for that to become a habit.

810

It's not going to be a habit.

811

On the fourth time you do it,

it's probably going to take

812

a wee while to get there.

813

So those are the things which I try

to build in and explain to people

814

and go, okay, so let's go there.

815

Let's go there.

816

let's have a review period and

see how that habits embedding.

817

And you'll know when it's

become a habit because you no

818

longer have to think about it.

819

You just do it.

820

Sal Jefferies: Yeah, really really cool.

821

I'm thinking of James Clear's works.

822

There's two people I follow, James

Clear and Charles Duhigg, both

823

specialists in the habit field.

824

And James Clear made a really simple

model, but one of his, his, his

825

pieces was to create a compelling

reason because behaviour is

826

really, behaviour is an expression.

827

So if you are someone who goes to the

gym, goes for a run, goes for a swim,

828

that's an expression, that's an action,

that's expressing something of about you.

829

And as I said to you, I, in my mind,

I'm not an athlete as such, I'm not

830

running, I'm not competing for much,

and so some people might call me out.

831

But in terms of.

832

I just need to see it for me.

833

If I think I'm an athlete,

what does an athlete do?

834

they, they go down the gym,

they do the training, they

835

keep learning about the body.

836

They find ways to enjoy that

process and to be in the game.

837

Whereas a person who doesn't see

themselves as an athlete, won't.

838

Case in point, those of

us, we all know this one.

839

Has anyone done the New Year

thing of, I'll start running.

840

January 1st, you got, you got your

great new trainers on, your new gear.

841

And you're running, and it's miserable,

and it's dark, and you stick it out

842

until the third week, and then you bail.

843

And the reason we bail, it's not

because the intention's not there.

844

It's not because the

trainers weren't right.

845

And yeah, the weather can be tough.

846

It's because we didn't have a

compelling enough reason to do it.

847

We didn't have enough of a timeline.

848

You're not going to become

a runner in a month.

849

Give it, give it three years.

850

Then you'll probably

become, quote, a runner.

851

And the other thing is, is your identity.

852

So if you always say,

I'm not a gym person.

853

And you try to go to the gym, you will,

the mind will actually, the predictive

854

brain will say, this isn't the right

environment and move away from that.

855

And then of course, it will bias you and

say, of course we're not a gym person.

856

Why would I go to the gym?

857

So be very careful of the identity that

we hold about ourselves, whoever we are

858

and thinking, how do I describe myself?

859

Because, That is also something we own.

860

If we're conscious, as you alluded to

earlier on in our conversation, if we're

861

conscious about what's my identity,

I am statements, they are flexible.

862

There's some, there's some fluidity

in that, because if you are out for a

863

gentle run, say you're doing a little

couple of miles or something simple,

864

at that point, you are a runner.

865

By true definition, you are taking

the act, so be very careful of the

866

self sabotage identity piece, which

I know Drew Hicks spoke about and

867

James Clear spoke about, and I would

add that to what you've said there.

868

It's so important for building habits,

and no, it doesn't take 90 days.

869

That's just silly.

870

I love what you said about complexity

because that's the truth of it.

871

So get rid of these timelines.

872

Go long term.

873

what, how am I going to

be in five years time?

874

I'm in a far better attitude than if I do

this exercise or this movement process.

875

What's going to happen next week?

876

Will you just go next week?

877

But what's going to happen next

year is the interesting question.

878

What's going to happen when you retire?

879

You're going to feel good.

880

or are you just, you're

going to be in a bad shape.

881

So long game thinking

and I would be gentle.

882

it's such a tough thing

in the male domain.

883

We, we're often very hard, but I know

some of my female clients are too.

884

Very tough on ourselves, push, push, push.

885

Commit, consistent.

886

But a little gentleness as well

because, you don't want to be beating

887

yourself up to do this movement stuff.

888

It wants to be integrated

into your way of being.

889

And I think for me, that seems to be much

more sustainable and functional as well.

890

Toby Buckle: that bit about identity.

891

I wholeheartedly agree with that and that

sense of Making sure that the idealised

892

you is, is realistic and actually

attractive to you, because somebody once

893

said we're always trying to move into

the idealised you, we're always running

894

slightly behind the idealised self.

895

And people have this idea that

actually, Oh, the idealized self is

896

just they don't really buy into that.

897

They don't really see themselves as that.

898

They don't think I am.

899

And I love that bit about, you

are a runner if you're running.

900

you are a healthy person if you're

trying to look after your body.

901

whether you're healthy in that moment

or not, you're trying to be healthy.

902

And it's that being, are you

being, are you doing those things,

903

which is really, fundamental.

904

Absolutely.

905

And the compelling reasons,

absolutely agree with.

906

you need that long term towards

motivation of I want to be like this.

907

I think you also need a really compelling,

what I call a big away from or kick

908

up the bum motivation in the moment.

909

sometimes on a cold, wet morning,

I don't always feel like doing some

910

of the exercise outside that I do.

911

my compelling away from reason is, is...

912

I visualise myself lying in bed

having had a stroke and my kids

913

coming up and talking to me.

914

That's quite powerful.

915

People go, what?

916

And I go, but it needs to be that

big for me to then get out of bed,

917

which is really, that's ideal for

me at the moment, that warm, comfy

918

bed, but it needs to be that really

big punchiness to get me out there.

919

So figure out when do you need

that, punchy kind of kick up

920

the what's it to get out there

and do it if that's your thing.

921

Sal Jefferies: Really nice.

922

And it's, it's, it's, yeah, I

guess that's leveraging the, the

923

predictive brain's ability of anxiety.

924

Oh my God, what if this happened?

925

It's it could really, really could.

926

And we may have all come across people

who've had difficult things happen to

927

them, which can be tragic and difficult.

928

And it can happen to each of us,

whether it's an illness, an accident.

929

So if that reason's yeah, I don't want

to be, I dunno, whatever it is, ill,

930

for some reason or have that, that

difficult thing happen to me, then I'm

931

damn well gonna do something about it.

932

And.

933

If I can find autonomy in my

own world, it's very powerful.

934

If I can help that with another person,

it feels very powerful and important.

935

So if, if any of us can create autonomy,

it doesn't matter so much how we

936

get that, whether it's that kick up

the bum, as you say, or the, the,

937

I'm going to be this type of person,

autonomy and action is traction.

938

It will create change.

939

There's nothing beats action ever.

940

So action really is powerful.

941

So getting there is, is, is

our most important thing.

942

Wow, Toby, I'm wanting to summarize.

943

We've covered a lot of different things

here, and I want to summarize because

944

you have, so much experience and

knowledge in terms of practicalities.

945

So if we're listening and we're thinking,

cool, this is, this is really vibing,

946

I've, I've really taken on board some

stuff, but let's, let's, how can our

947

listener really integrate some of

these practices into their working

948

practice, in fact their day practices?

949

What would you suggest as a kind of a

summary of what we've covered so far?

950

Toby Buckle: I would say figure

out where you are at the moment

951

and where you want to be and why.

952

So that's the fundamental starting

point is, where are you now?

953

Are you doing enough in your head

without being too judgy about it and

954

without being too comparative, but going

in terms of my movement, my tendency

955

to do movement, am I doing enough?

956

If you're not, how much

would you like to be doing?

957

Realistically and be really realistic

about how much you want to do and then

958

at that point you can start to go Okay,

so I what sort of little things could I

959

start doing straight away because people

have a tendency to put it off and go Oh,

960

I you know, I've realized not doing it

so I'll make a big plan and maybe I'll

961

start next year sometime and it's actually

What could you do just straight away

962

which would make a little difference?

963

Some of those things I talked about

just walking on the phone while you're

964

talking or you know those little things,

build those in and then if you want to

965

do more find the things and try little

prototypes of, okay so maybe I could try

966

that thing or that thing or that thing,

give them long enough like we said.

967

to give them a whirl, but just

treat it as little experiments.

968

I'm going to find something

which will actually get me long

969

term to where I want to get to.

970

and that's the thing that will sustain me

and that will become my thing, which is

971

just, I don't even need to build it in.

972

It just becomes a habit because

I've done it and done it and done

973

it, and that's where I'll get to.

974

Sal Jefferies: So here's what

I would say for, for a summary.

975

We want to look at the movement in our day

and we want to look at bigger movements.

976

So movement in the day might

look like, how much can I get up?

977

Can I do the walking and

talking on the phone?

978

But remembering things such as if we

get up, the major muscle groups in

979

our body, they talk to the metabolic

system and regulate blood sugars.

980

So if there are weight gain issues or

anything like diabetes or on the edge of

981

that, that's a metabolic issue that can

be strongly influenced by the amount of

982

movement or lack thereof you're doing.

983

So motivation there.

984

I leave things at the top of my roof.

985

I've got, three stories.

986

I purposely leave stuff up there

so I have to go back up and get it.

987

And people might say you're wasting time.

988

No, no, no, no.

989

You can't waste time.

990

This is another thing I want to call out.

991

You can use time for better

reasons and for less better

992

reasons, but you can't waste it.

993

You can't actually waste time.

994

You can just do

ineffective things with it.

995

So if you're going up and down the

stairs to get stuff or using the

996

loo on the fifth floor or something

like that, in my viewing, it's

997

That's a little cardio movement.

998

That's a little opportunity to move.

999

And when you look at it differently,

that can have a big shift.

00:48:01,611 --> 00:48:03,161

And then to the big movement staff.

00:48:03,161 --> 00:48:06,801

So we're talking about strength work,

cardio work, getting things really going.

00:48:07,401 --> 00:48:10,721

If you're not sure there's

amazing resources online.

00:48:11,031 --> 00:48:12,221

We're really gifted with that now.

00:48:12,221 --> 00:48:14,091

There's a great things

online that you can follow.

00:48:14,581 --> 00:48:18,601

And if you're really not sure, get a,

get a coach, get a PT, get someone who

00:48:18,601 --> 00:48:20,741

works in this space to work with you.

00:48:21,641 --> 00:48:24,081

Because that can really shift

it so you're not on your own.

00:48:24,081 --> 00:48:27,141

So those two spaces I think is really

important to think about movement.

00:48:27,701 --> 00:48:30,591

The subtle, the everyday, and then

perhaps the bigger stuff, which

00:48:30,591 --> 00:48:31,881

you might want to lean towards.

00:48:33,220 --> 00:48:33,770

Toby Buckle: I love that.

00:48:33,950 --> 00:48:37,630

And I would add for managers,

particularly in leaders, see it

00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,230

as part of your responsibility.

00:48:39,730 --> 00:48:42,610

As a leader and a manager in

the organisation, it's your

00:48:42,610 --> 00:48:44,300

responsibility to be energised.

00:48:44,610 --> 00:48:48,340

It's your responsibility to be able

to manage your stress and find ways

00:48:48,340 --> 00:48:52,240

of dealing with whatever stress is

to you, being able to deal with that.

00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:56,140

And it's also your responsibility

to understand yourself and your body

00:48:56,140 --> 00:49:00,440

responses and get more familiar with

how you respond at a body level.

00:49:00,820 --> 00:49:04,360

because then you'll be much

better at doing your job and

00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:05,680

you'll be a role model for others.

00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,550

And I think that's what

being a leader is about.

00:49:08,048 --> 00:49:08,338

Sal Jefferies: Perfect.

00:49:08,508 --> 00:49:09,288

Absolute summary.

00:49:09,418 --> 00:49:09,668

Yeah.

00:49:09,698 --> 00:49:10,588

Great leadership, huh?

00:49:10,658 --> 00:49:11,258

Great leadership.

00:49:11,908 --> 00:49:13,128

Dear listener, thank you.

00:49:13,128 --> 00:49:15,098

I hope there is lots you

have gleaned from that.

00:49:15,098 --> 00:49:20,068

Remember, go back, make notes, grab

the summary, do what you need to do.

00:49:20,228 --> 00:49:20,908

Take action.

00:49:21,088 --> 00:49:23,288

If you only do one

thing, take some action.

00:49:23,418 --> 00:49:27,158

I implore you to do Toby, thank

you for joining me today for

00:49:27,158 --> 00:49:30,548

sharing your knowledge experience

and I deeply appreciate it.

00:49:30,828 --> 00:49:32,468

Dear listener, I'll see

you on the next one.

00:49:32,888 --> 00:49:33,012

Take

00:49:34,405 --> 00:49:36,055

Thank you so much for listening.

00:49:36,325 --> 00:49:39,895

If you enjoyed the episode,

please subscribe and if a friend

00:49:39,895 --> 00:49:42,985

would benefit from hearing this,

do send it on to them as well.

00:49:44,185 --> 00:49:47,185

If you would like to get in touch

yourself, then you can go to my website,

00:49:47,425 --> 00:49:56,095

which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S

A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.

00:49:56,395 --> 00:49:59,755

Hit the get in touch link and there

you can send me a direct message.

00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:03,580

If you'd like to go one step further

and learn whether coaching could help

00:50:03,580 --> 00:50:08,260

you overcome a challenge or a block

in your life, then do reach out and

00:50:08,260 --> 00:50:11,650

I offer a call where we can discuss

how this may be able to help you.

00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,440

Until the next time, take care.