Two moss loving friends talk about being moms who make art with community as a way to cultivate connections in a world that aims to divide us. carla and Jamie-Leigh also dive into feeling-thinking together about what each discovered in themselves while making On Belonging— ending with an invitation to you, the listener, to reflect on what it means to belong. 

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carla, Jamie-Leigh

Welcome to On Belonging, an audio series to connect us. On Belonging explores why so many of us are feeling called to find a deeper sense of belonging, whether with our ancestors or to land where we live, and beyond.

These powerful stories and conversations are an invitation into the lives and landscapes of the guests' worlds, offering pathways towards remembering and finding more belonging.

Hello, everyone. So this episode is actually, us, carla and Jamie-Leigh. And we decided early on in this process, that it was important for us to create a story and through a conversation between the two of us. Because not only did we put a lot of thinking and love and care into this project and the topics around it, but we also have had so many conversations and learned so much during the process of the last few years, because this is just one this series is just a small iteration of the whole project. And so we just wanted to ... we're not going to reflect on the episodes, the stories that came before it, because that doesn't seem right. And we're also artists too. And we're also storytellers. So we're going to take up a little space, put ourselves in the kinda hot seat and ask each other some of the questions we asked our other guests to explore. I think that's kind of the aim? Yeah. Welcome, everyone.

Yeah. Welcome. And I think too, it's like, yeah, the stories that we heard throughout the series, yes, they are the stories of the storytellers. But I think it's important to get to know us a little bit as the people curating it to right? I think it can help all of us feel that connection that we're all looking for. So. So here's us.

Here we are, here we are, or as Liam used to say Hear me are.

Okay, so like, we are doing this project through joyful threads productions and Grounded Futures, which is like collective collaborative spaces where we work with lots of different artists. But this project is very specifically like, the core of it is me, Jamie-Leigh, and carla here. So carla, why don't you introduce yourself as an artist?

Thank you. Hi, I'm carla joy bergman, and I've been creating art, with community in community, across generations across landscapes for over 20 years. I wear, I wear very, very different hats and do different things. And I've started using the term transdisciplinary because I think it speaks more to what I do. Like I work with different mediums in different forms. And I've kind of curated them in different ways, including with people mostly, but also with nature. I am calling in from the land of Musqueam, Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh peoples, also known as Vancouver, Canada. I am a settler from British, Irish and Welsh ancestry. And I am a mom, which is really important for me to say, because there's a good chance I'll talk about that in this episode, talking about my kids often because it's very connected to belonging. And I do this making kin thing in a home place with a partner for the last 32 years. And I am a friend. I'm a radical, I like to stir shit and cause trouble for people in power. And I dabble in poetry a little bit. And I think mostly, I spend a lot of time with nature, with the crows, the birds, the flowers with the trees. That's me.

Really good

How about you?

Well hear me are. Yeah, I mean, I just want to say that I struggle with these types of introductions to myself, and I think many of us do, so. bare with me. Yeah, my name is Jamie-Leigh. I am currently sitting on the territories of the Saanich people which also is like Northern Victoria also, aka Saanich. I don't really understand the like district lines here. I am mixed ancestry. I am a Portuguese Squamish, I don't know there's some unknown question marks question marks. Also, for me but the two that I most deeply connect with probably like, which will come up through this conversation a little bit because of place, is like physical place is Portuguese and Squamish --those are the the two that really resonate deeply in my life for many reasons, which I'm sure will come up throughout this conversation. And I also am a mother, which is like, really at the forefront of a lot of my conversations, a lot of my ways of being a lot of my art making now. I'm gonna still say a newer mom, because my kid is for, currently, and being a mom and being in relationship to my kid has completely reshaped who I am as an artist. So I think it's important to start there that like I'm a mother who makes art, not an artist who mothers. And I would also say that I don't really like I didn't really identify much as an artist for a long time until relatively recently, even though I was like a photographer and a filmmaker, and whatever, all of these things. And I think partly through this project, and through not just not just this like On Belonging project, but like through Grounded Futures, I've really stepped into calling myself an artist, calling myself a storyteller. I think that's good enough. I think that's who I am roughly like, in a nutshell of what you need to know about me, maybe you'll find out so much more as I keep talking.

It's so context based, right? Like, it depends on how I'm feeling that day, the context of which I'm being asked, We are multi-layered, right?

We're just multi.

We're just layered, you know, and so it all depends, but that was, yeah, thank you for just being here.

So we have a few questions that we kind of, you know, some of the people, everyone kind of got similar questions. And then some people chose to write a narrative from that. So we're going to ask each of us, some of those, because this was based on, you know, many years of thinking about what it means to find belonging, whether it's through ancestry, you know, as a settler leaving here and going for me personally going to Ireland or Wales or Britain. Or does it mean, you know, rooting into where you live now, and, and everything else that that involves so. And we realize that the topic was so enormous that we just needed to be open about what it was about. So with that, I kind of want to hear from you, Jamie-Leigh, why do you do this kind of work? Like, what brings you here?

Yeah, it's a really good question. Because I think there's layers of that, like, why do I do this kind of work in like, where technology meets storytelling is because of like, just sheer interest in the technology, I love technology, I love like learning stuff, I'm not like, So Uber about it, that I you know, want to know all the latest, like, camera models, and blah, blah, blah, like, once upon a time, maybe, but not really anymore. I'm like, cool, if it does, the tool, if the tool does the thing, that's I want to learn how to use it that's in front of me. Because I think, I mean, in the very, like real sense of the word a tool, like so tool to help us tell stories to help us reach each other and help us connect. And it's a tool that, at least, like for me, kind of growing up as like, you know, right in the kind of, I don't even know if I was I feel like I'm like the core of millennials, but I don't actually know what the age gap is. Like, I feel like it was sort of a breaking open as I was coming into, like figuring out, and I didn't have this language at the time, but like, like what storytelling could mean to me and could mean to connect to other people. And so all of a sudden when I was like a teenager was when like everybody was getting a little point and shoot digital camera and like, stuff like that, right? We were we were all of a sudden like massively able to document our stories and maybe it was like, you know, 300 selfies that we took, but it counts. Anyway so it felt like really timely the tools to to learn about and you know, partly that led me to going to film school and working as a film technician and working and getting interested in documentary film and led me to realize that like through the technology, there's so many ways to tell stories. And then the main thing that really I would say like shifted at one point throughout my ... I hesitate to say the word career but whatever career was that I realized that like, so many people had stories, but they didn't have access to tools to tell their stories or get their stories amplified or get them reached and stuff. And so I think like, that's really at the core of a lot of what we do together as collaborators, you and me specifically, but like, at the core of like, how my practice of work in every project that I do in every workplace that I go into. So it's like funny this in general, for you and me, we're not typically the people in front of the spaces, hearing our voices, because we both really root ourselves in that, I think. And there's this other piece that brings me to, like, why do we do this kind of work? That I just remembered really recently, and I had really forgotten about it. When I was like a teenager, and in general, like, you know, I kind of grew up in like, a little bit more of a, I just felt like not a lot of sense of belonging in the place where I grew up. Like, I felt like, I couldn't express the ideas in my head in a way that people understood. It's like pretty conservative, where I grew up and like a little bit like, you know, like country redneck vibes. And like, there's pieces of that life that I actually really love and like really connect to a lot of things, but like the core ideas, and like foundations of who I am, I struggled to find connection where I was in place. And so stories reading and movies, for me, ended up becoming safe harbors. I read, like, I used to read like 40 books a summer I'd like get on summer vacation, and I read like 40 novels as a teenager. And I tried to like out beat my own record from the year before. I'm like, how many books can I read this year. And then like movies, I forgot that I did this, I just remember this recently, I used to have like, lined paper like just like regular ruled paper where I write names of movies of that I wanted to watch. And then I'd like, have like little codes of like, like what I felt about them kind of as I watched them. And I used to have like, front and back, like probably five pages, like hundreds of movies written down by hand that I was like, I'm going to track stories that I feel something about and whatever. And so when I, you know, finished high school, and I was like, oh, I'm going to make movies because like movies were such a thing. And I or I wanted to be a writer for a while because stories, right and books and whatever. So I'm just like really trying to root back and connect to that idea that I had when I was like 18 or 19. And I was like, I wasn't even in film school yet. I was like doing some traveling and doing some other school randomly here and there. And I was like, I just want to tell stories that reach people. I remember, like at 19, maybe like 20 ish, I was like, maybe I'll do like a video podcast. Like that could be cool. Funny that I ended up here in some very roundabout way, playing with audio again. But I just had that idea that like, I was so rooted in this at the time, too. I was like, if I make a piece of art, or a story that goes out, and like literally one person who's maybe already in my orbit or not sees it reads it hears it. And is like feels more connected in the place that they're at, like across time, cross distance, whatever. Like then, then that matters. And so why do I do the work? Why do I do this kind of work? It is for connection. It's for us to break down like that isolation that empire kind of imparts on us or place based disassociation with the people around you can can be really intense. And so like hearing a story, seeing a story, reading a story can give you a lifeline in a lot of ways. So it's not that my stories will do that necessarily, which like of course they will we all affect each other all the time. But it's so that other people also feel emboldened to tell their stories. I think that's all the pieces I could come to say why I do this work. And also like specifically why I do this work. I feel so like, like the world just was this beautiful synchronicity, and I met you carla who like actually really, you know, lives a lot of these practices that I like, didn't know how to embody yet and was like, maybe on like the cusp of but like I felt really empowered by meeting you and by becoming a collaborator and becoming a friend and like, seeing how you walk in this world. And so I want to hear from you and why did you do this kind of work?

Well, first of all, thank you so much for weaving together such a beautiful story, it all this resonates, it makes sense knowing you and and seeing and reading and experiencing all the different types of storytelling you do, whether it's visual or a fiction, or creative nonfiction, or audio work or video and it's all there and it definitely reaches and connects So, thank you for being you. And yeah, it was very synchronicity that we met and, you know, I have a, I have a long history of wanting to do things that I don't have the skills to do. And so luckily, I love to collaborate. And so, you know, I had this big film idea, and I was really missing a big element on how to do this film and a long came you, your wonderful storytelling, technical ability, prowess, rooted in story, human who wanted to collaborate with me on my film, and which led to this series. So I reflect that back at you or shine back at you to the way you walk and move. And, yeah, I always, I always think back to, you know, without taking up too much space, but I, you know, I have kind of a language processing disability. And I always say my brain is like brambles. And so it's not always easy for me to communicate or talk about my ideas and my thinking, and my weird, strange knowings. And so it was important that I wrote or created with others, to create the thing that I was feeling and thinking and, you know, I'm a feeler first and the thinker second that that's the other reason is, I can't always put words to what I'm feeling. And so when I collaborate, or I bring, create a space for other people to share the thing I'm feeling, it's just a, like, I like to think of it like I'm a conductor, and I have this passion of this thing, but I can't play the violin, I can't play the cello, I can't play, I can't do any of it. So I, so that's part of what goes on for me, but it's also political, in the sense of amplifying and transmitting voices, and the unheard and then the on purpose marginalized. And, you know, it started with the youth very, very much early on in my work and including my own voice, and then moved to a very feminist for a while, and just anybody who feels like a misfit on the margins, doesn't feel like they belong in the narrative that's being forced everywhere, the stories that are being told everywhere, I wanted to create spaces for folks to be heard to share to commune together. And yeah, very much similar to you, like, I'm looking for connection. Not necessarily for myself, because I'm actually quite hermit like, but I want people to feel more connected to where they are to themselves to, to ideas to maybe, you know, maybe it's the first time they ever heard of Ursula K. Le Guin through my... whatever, like, I just want to make webs of connections, and, or help spin those with other people... and you have to be in relationship with other people for that to happen. And then I think, also, as I've aged, I've really realized that we're drawn to do work where we need support, like where we need to heal, where we need to learn. So I'm, you know, it's, I wrote a whole book with my beloved friend, Nick, about joy, because I actually couldn't access joy that often. So a lot of people don't know that about me. But that, you know, now I can say that because I didn't know that at the time, I think compared to a lot of radicals I was organizing with, I probably seem like the most joyful in some cases, but I like literally, you know, despair is probably louder for me, and it connects to this conversation because I am literally cut off from my blood relatives, except for my descendants, like my children. So I'm like, I don't have any living close relatives that are like, of my blood of my ancestry. And, and I haven't for years, and so, you know, so it's always been about like, I've had to cultivate it, I had to... so much of my belonging has been about moving away from things where I couldn't be myself. So it's not surprising that this is a place of like, deep healing that is necessary for me to thrive and to flourish, and to be the person I want to be in this world. So of course, I'm digging into a topic where I'm struggling. So yeah, I just I think we can I think it will just flow as we keep talking but yeah.

Yeah, that's so real. Especially like over the last while. I would say like, I don't know, maybe just like, pull back the veil for a second. But like I would say, we are recording this after having recorded everybody else's stories, right. And so throughout this project, I've been thinking, and like, especially in the last little while, while we've been like editing, and like, you know, talking deeply with each other about everybody's pieces, I've been struggling so hard with this idea that, like, I had to understand what belonging was like being a curator on the side of it, or whatever. And it was like, I don't even know what to say, like, it was like, it was really tough to realize that I'm probably like, at the place of feeling the least belonging in my life that I felt in my adult life, right. And so, yeah, I really appreciate you saying, and just like putting it out there that like, oftentimes, we, we create this the things that we need. It's been such good medicine, like hearing these stories, and working with these stories and working with these storytellers. But like, for so many reasons, but yeah, also because I need it. You need it, we need it.

Yeah, thank you. I'm so sorry you're feeling the least sense of belonging at this time in your life. And, yeah, I invite you to say more if you want to, but we can also pivot to a more more optimistic question, if you want?

Yeah, no, I mean, I think I can say I want to talk about it. Because actually, like, I would say, I've had a bit of a breakthrough and it's related to some of the ideas that we wanted to talk about anyways, which is: how do we root our belonging physically where we are? So for context, I, yeah, I grew up and spent most of my life on like the mainland, which is, you know, and like my adult life in Vancouver. So, a lot of things there that are like, home to me, in a lot of ways, sense of belonging really deeply, really deeply. For multiple reasons. Like one as I was kind of saying, at the opening of this is like, I grew up really connected to my Portuguese family, I would say that like my my Volvalena, she was like, another parent to me. And, like, honestly, like more than another parent, like both my parents worked a lot and, you know, had different houses and stuff might say, like, that my Vovalina like my really safe space, I guess, like that was for me. And so I grew up really close and connected to the Portuguese culture that she lived and embodied, and I grew up really surrounded, I would say by that, because also like, my family, my Portuguese family in in Vancouver and in surrounding areas is pretty big. Like, I know, all my cousins and I grew up really close with all of them, right? it's deep or than that I know, my mom's cousins. Like, it's so big. And then yeah, like having sort of like my adult life shifting out of that and starting to tell or like explore the stories of my ancestors on my dad's side who I was really quite disconnected from. And in particular, because of place like seeking out the Squamish story, understanding and like very cool, like so liberating to transmute that like ancestral, inherited shame, I would say around like, Indigenous identity that my dad carried and his dad carried, and turn it back into joy, and turn it back into thriving. And you know, like, I don't get to heal that for my dad, and I don't get to heal that from my grandfather, who I didn't really, like he died when I was very young. But I get to heal that for me. And in a way have seen some of the healing comes from my dad too, which is like a whole other story. It's so beautiful and cool. But anyways, so then, I spent most of my like, adult life, in Vancouver kind of like reconnecting learning where our family came from and learning that like, you know, like, some of the stories and stuff. And it was, I felt like I was just kind of really breaking like, you know, like, nine, almost 10 years into the reconnecting was just starting to be like, Oh, I'm starting to, like, know, people, and maybe make connections to who my family could be whatever. And then I moved. And it was really, I didn't expect it like it was really slow. Actually, I was like, so excited to move. Vancouver's becoming really difficult. My baby was like, yeah, and we'd had like, a break in in our house. And like all this stuff, where I was just like, everything about it is telling me to move, even though I had such a beautiful network of people and friends, like in so many areas of my life, but I was feeling the push to move for a lot of other reasons. And so when I first moved here to Victoria, it was quite shiny and nice, I guess ? And I moved like you know, my my oldest brother like followed pretty soon after I did. We've moved to like with my co parent he lives like down the street. So we're able to like co parent, like one of my best friends moved at the same time. So that was sort of like, oh, pieces of my world came with me and I would say that was like, almost two years, we're coming right up to two years since I moved now. It wasn't until like, probably, you know, six or seven months ago that I started to realize that my sense of belonging had kind of been, like, torn away at that time, but I, but I hadn't noticed it. And so, through this project, I've recognized that like, feels like it's been a long time since I've been seen in a, how would I say it? in an ongoing way? Or something? You know? Yeah. So like, there's that plus, like, fuckin parenting is hard when you're not surrounded by community. So and like, single parenting. So like that added to it. And there's like, all these conversations that I want to have with my kid about, like, the ways that we like, and I mean, we pretty specifically like me and you, carla, like live in the world, like how we engage in like, the actual, like politics of our our lives in a way. You know, my kid is four, so it's like, how do I start these conversations in a generative, soft whatever way? How do you? Yeah, like not embody adult supremacy in parenting? And yeah, like, so I guess, really realizing that all of my immediate accesses to those types of like, reflective conversations weren't immediate anymore. And so the last six or seven months, I've just been, like, trying to in a way, and this project is actually really helped. Because physically, I've had to go and be with you and work with you. And it brings me back to Vancouver. But I'm trying to keep the line between like, who I was in my belonging, I felt to in Vancouver to, I'm trying to bring it, thread it, weave it, braid it to where I am now to in this place, because I've chosen to live here. And I do love it. And like, I do think it's the right choice for us. But I have to participate in my own belonging, I guess. I don't even know if I answered any, I don't even know if there was a question?

No, I asked you to share why you feel less Belonging. And that was beautiful, I mean, I just really heard that there's some grief around like you were literally living on your ancestral land. And then making those connections, I would say you are healing your dad and your ancestors and your future descendants, including your baby, with this work, and I know how challenging that work is, I witnessed you in some of it. And then I'm, it's, you know, capitalism, and it's it's ongoing occupation of this land and colonialism. And it's all of that. And you are such a cultivator of community, and friendship, and you have so many people here that miss you, including us. So I mean, I'm sure you feel that as well. And as someone who grew up in Victoria and that surrounding area, and has a drive to be there, again, like I get it. Vancouver as an urban capitalist, hyper capitalist city is no longer feeling good to so many of us. And I spent years cultivating and being part of a large community that I watched slowly shrink as people had to leave, because they couldn't afford to live here. They couldn't live even slightly their politics or their radical ways of being, and what I mean by that is like, truly engaging in mutuality with each other, because they were fried, they were exhausted, they didn't have any disposable income, anymore, because they had to work three jobs to pay the rent, and it just eats away at the very ethos that that bound our communities together. I mean, and I think people listening from all over the world and living in urban places are probably going, yes, this is happening here too... Vancouver is not special. And Victoria is also overpriced and ridiculous. But there's also, there's just, it's just smaller, so there's a potential for doing things a bit differently. Yeah. And so that was my response to that.

Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate that. I'm curious to shift and talk about like your sense of belonging and your relationship to belonging and in place right now and how that's feeling for you.

Yeah, I mean, it's been so... I always think of that Tracy Chapman song, Fast Car where, like, I can actually listen to it without crying because it literally is my life and meeting my partner Chris. Like I literally, you know, like, got in his car and drove faster so I finally felt a sense of belonging I could for the first time in my life was with him. And so I mean, how I'm so you know, grateful every day for that core sense that's just with me.

[singing] I had a feeling that I belong, I had a feeling I could be someone, be someone.

And I'm just gonna put it out there! As a… somebody who really pays attention to time, all time, across time. Like, you know a nerd about history, a nerd about futurism, a nerd about all of the things. I don't ever feel like I belong, and really, outside of time. So I also have that running always where I, I never feel like I belong in this society, this place right now right here right now. And so I think that's just like an important context to put into this. But the moon is, seems so cliche but the moon is so important to me. And it's so funny because, you know, we don't get to see it for a big chunk of a month, because it's in dark mode. And, we also live in a rainy city. But the minute that sliver comes out, I act like a kid on Christmas, like you can like I'm like, Oh my God look at the moon! Luckily I live with a crew of people who are all there with me going OMG look at the moon! And I think, you know, I found my sense of belonging often from looking up. So I'm obsessed with clouds, I'm obsessed with the stars, I'm obsessed with the Big Dipper, you know, just always looking up. And for two solid years, every time I went out for a walk, I would see at least three crow feathers. And I was wondering what the message was, and I've had different people tell me that, Oh, it's you know, it's like a quill, the crows are telling you to write -- write that book that you've been meaning to write, or whatever, or be more like a crow, because crows are radical. And then it hit me, it hit me. I was like, Oh, stop looking up, be here now. Move beyond your rigidity around politics, move past this harshness that, the bar that you give yourself of like as a white settler, that you're not allowed to belong here. root back into creating webs of mutuality and relationships where we undo colonialism together and a fierce anti colonial approach to your work, and mutual aid and all that stuff. But like, you belong, you belong to this tree, you belong to this grass, you belong, you're here, you're here, so you know, show up. And that's what I decided that those (meant). Like, literally, I'm not exaggerating, when I say in two years, I probably saw 5000 Crow feathers. That's my message, is to, actually, alongside and within all the nuance of being a white settler on occupied stolen land, I belong here, in a core way, like, in a way that allows me to show up and hear and listen to my Indigenous friends. And like, I'm not abandoning, I'm not becoming a liberal. I mean, like, oh, whatever! I'm trying to figure out that you know, that piece. And, you know, we're nature. And I know that that's really common right now. But you have to realize that it wasn't for a long time and like, because capitalism and colonialism, empire does not want that connection. It's really important that we don't have that connection and that it gets weeded out of us -- humans our nature, we belong in nature. I think, to kind of wrap this question up. I think what I've come to understand, through this work with you, through our conversations, through the storytellers is I have a lot of grief and despair around belonging. I ... working on these stories, made me feel less belonging, it brought up a lot of ways, shone light on all the ways I don't feel belonging. And it also made me really realize that belonging, the whole idea around it isn't permanent. It's an impermanent state. It's always in flux. It's always changing. It ebbs and flows. It's like everything. It's just, you know, it's Taoist. It just flows. It comes and goes, some days, it doesn't. I can't access it. Other days, I'm embodied in it. And really, what it comes down to is when I feel the most alive, the most alive like whatever I'm doing — this conversation, I feel like I belong, like, you know, at a Palestine rally, I feel like I belong. Cooking food for people, I feel like I belong, like sharing a story with my kid... like all the little ways, they just like bloom, and then they… ebbs and flows. And so I'm trying to realize that it, of course, is like everything else: It's constantly changing. And so to not get too caught up in the feelings that come with that, and just let it flow.

It's so good. And it's, you know, it's like, why I think you and I can collaborate so well, is sort of, like our brains work similarly, and also wildly differently, you know? Like, so like, we can understand each other on this, like, deeper level. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, that piece that you felt over here, I'm gonna take that and like, really feel it in my body, and it's going to come out something else. And then because of how open you and I are with each other, and then trusting each other. I just feel like, yeah, like everything you said, is in a way, like a mirroring of my story, and everybody's talks that we listened to. So I just love the way that you brought that forward, and the openness you brought with it. And I think, yeah, I think we all really feel that in a lot of ways. It's really true that that sense of ebbing and flowing and like, it can feel more dire than that, right? When we're in the disconnection, it feels like this sense of not belonging or whatever, it's so heavy, it's so intense. And so like, I also love this metaphor of like, yeah, the looking up and then remembering to ground where you are too because it's so complicated, right? Place space stuff and people, politicizing our identities on behalf of us, before we even understand who we are, like, all of these things really add up, especially when you're like, I want to get like, be radical or whatever, like, I want to change the way that we relate to each other, not change, but like deepen the way that we connect to each other and stuff like that, right. And all of that other than rigidity and noise I would call it almost really interrupts us. And it's like, amongst some of the people who we sometimes can feel so connected to and whatever too, so I like this idea that it doesn't have to be static, and that we're allowed to reach out for connection in different places at different times and with different people at different times. Beautiful.

Yeah, I mean, and it's gonna always, you know, it's context based, right? Like, if I had this conversation, like a month ago would be very different, or a month from now or a year from now and just being open. Just embodying that idea of impermanence of like, all we have is changes. As so many amazing writers have been trying to get that message across to us. You know, I think like, belonging and feeling connected is what we're really I think also talking about is loneliness. And it's not even something just us on the margins or thinking about like it's mainstream. It's a mainstream idea. Felt, lived, it's an epidemic. And it seems to be partly to do with the pandemic, but I think the pandemic just pulled back the sheen, and all the veils, and it was already, it was already in play. And I think sometimes, like feeling bored, it's even code for I'm actually lonely. And I think I like to pull apart this idea of loneliness or a feeling alone. And it really comes back to not being seen, like that longing to be seen. And this and, you know, I'm someone who pays attention to, since I was a kid, in how children are treated, and watching myself, and then other kids and then kids in my life as I grew, and then my own kids and then my friends, kids and watching the stuff get seeded. These, like this idea of you don't belong, are actually those seeds watered because they've dealt with so much adult supremacy, that and all that stuff. If you are constantly longing to be seen, be heard, be yourself, be loved. I mean, that's really what we're right... like, we want to love and be loved. And that gets chipped away at in the subtlest ways, like, you know? And it is because of all these imposed systems of poverty, racism, of white supremacy of ableism, like all of it, it's all part of it, anti trans stuff like it's, it's all at play. I'm not saying the adults live a blissful life and they're just being shitty. Like obviously it's all, It's an ecology. But I guess it's all to say that it doesn't just happen by accident, like we don't all of a sudden just be like, Oh, I have a terrible job and that's why I don't feel like I belong. Like, there's been a history of hurts and a stripping away of that sense of really feeling like you're connected to whoever.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I have to place us in the time and space that we're at right now a little bit, because it's really hard to have these conversations without doing so. But like, some of my biggest struggles in parenting right now is understanding how to talk about what's happening in Palestine, currently, with a four year old, who, how do you explain Rook? Really, like inquisitive, also, like really, like, verbally, cognitively, like beyond what this was prepared for is maybe like, the best way to put it. So like, he really reads everything like around him, you know, like, not literally reading, but like, he really reads my emotional state, he absorbs it and like, like, so many kids obviously do. But then he has the cognitive ability already to flip it, ask me questions and like, you know, dive a little deeper. Like he's, yeah, he's just been like that, right? Like, his verbal skills came before, like, a lot of other kids his age and stuff like that. So to say all this, I'm like, you know, here parenting and asking these questions. And like sorry, he's asking me these questions about Palestine. And like, what he's feeling. He's feeling confused. And he's already starting to feel fear, right. And so like, because also, it affects me, he sees me when I'm impacted by videos and images, and whatever that I see online. And obviously, I'm not showing that to him. But it impacts me, and he feels it. So I started to feel really isolated in not knowing how to talk to my own kid, or like, I'm just doing my best and listening and whatever. And so we started going to some events that were like organizing with families. So what I wanted to come back to here is like, where we can, when we feel the most disconnection, isolation, loneliness, especially based on like, yeah, like, post pandemic world, you know, honestly, like, struggles in addictions to like social media, like in response to like, a capitalist world that like makes us desire escapism in a whole new way. All this other stuff. I feel like I'm losing the thread here. But like, the connection that I had to go and seek out was other parents, who were potentially struggling with the same questions. I didn't need to find people who had the answers, I needed to find people who were also struggling with my struggle, right? Or like, whatever, right? Like I needed to feel safe, which is what you were saying. So like, and to talk about, also bring back to like, what you were saying before, too, it's like, always gonna look and feel different. The people that I might need to seek out when Rook is a teenager are going to be totally different, right? Like, all of these things. But like, recently, and with struggling with my own, like, sense of like, what how do we organize? How do we influence? How do we participate in a future that we want to see, while also trying to, like, safely have that conversation for a four year old without making him feel like, oh, I have to take on the burdens of the world because he's four, and, you know, other, the thing that I found the most helpful was going to spaces where other kids were, and so there was like, some, like undertones of joy throughout. And I think a lot of our organizing, this is a judgment, but a lot of our organizing excludes kids, right and excludes families. And, like I'm just stating that it's a judgment because it's sorry. But yeah, like I haven't actually really felt able to organize since I had a kid in a lot of ways. Because like one I have to show up with my kid to like, I'm also a single parent. So like, I have to cook all the meals and do the things and I work full time and blah, blah, blah, like whatever like I need support if I'm going to show up. And so like through some of these and like obviously I'm not the only one feeling this and experiencing this because now I see here as soon as I got to a few connections. There's all of these beautiful, like family organized events. And with that being the central focus, I lost my thread, but we have to see each other in our struggles too. And like, it's actually really validating to be around other people who also don't know.

Yeah, that was, that was exactly it. Like it's about.. it actually gets back to that being in motion thing, because and I love that it wasn't looking for answers. Because I mean, if you meet a parent who has all the answers, you should run the other way. Because they're not listening to their kids. Or maybe they're reflecting on their relationship with their kid, and now they're thinking that can apply to every other kid. That is, you know, I mean, you can't, like there's no recipe for social relationships. There's just inspiration. There's questions. There's more questions, but you, yeah, like, I mean, it's getting to that thing about loneliness or feeling alone in this struggle of like, how do you I have this conversation about a genocide with my four year old? Oh, look, there's all these other families who are also thinking about this and coming together. And that's beautiful. Like, that's a beautiful message to get out there. There's always if you're, if you're having a thought about a way that you're feeling disconnected, there's a really good chance there's a whole pile of other people having a similar feeling and then have a similar experience. And so, yeah, I think it's, it's really valid to remind ourselves, and I need to hear it too, like that. You. Yeah, it's back to that idea of cultivating... you know, I deeply had to cultivate and make Kin because I didn't have, you know, grandparents and, you know, we do have on one side of the family, that but not, not on the other so much. And so, you know, "beyond the blood" like, was exactly what we did, as a family, right, as a kin, you know, creating, especially... I had, there were so many allo parents for Liam especially, because I was so embedded in community with Zach and we did so many things together, and he was 10 years older, and, but like, I had to actively do that. And, and I learned, you know, so many of the pillars were the parents who were raising kids, 10, 20 years older than my kids. But what I appreciate, and it was just probably who I oriented towards is, like most all of them weren't the type to give advice, they were stuck in the middle of it too with me, they were stuck in the middle of the process with me. I learned more from their kids, actually, their kids would reflect more to me on what steps to take -- like the 17 year old or the 18 year old who was raised in a similar kind of family ethos, dynamic or community way that my kids were.

So yeah, I think I've been thinking a lot about on the stories, really, some of them really highlighted this, but this idea of manufacturing belonging, you know, we have to, for for good and for bad, like are for good and for hard or for wrong and for whatever, like whether it's ideologically coming together, which can feel a little bit icky, but sometimes, you know, Empire wants us, wants to silo us into our individual homes, into our nuclear families, into individualism. And really to undo that you have to cultivate belonging, you really do. And so it's not, it's not really about an artificial sense. But it really is about cultivating. You know, people used to call it building community. But Liam always likes to remind me that empire builds, you know? We cultivate, we plant seeds, we nurture, we use hospitality, we show up, like there's just so many other better metaphors than building. You know? And because part of that work is about unmaking too because you can't just, because we're going to show up in hierarchical ways and shitty ways if we don't actually work to undo stuff too. Belonging is so it's so active, right? Or like finding connection requires a form of breaking out of what we're told, which is individualism is like, where are you begin? And I don't even I don't even know because I don't subscribe to that. So I'm just like, I don't even know what the rhetoric is because I did away for so long.

Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing is that like, within that like individualism and whatever, those of us who are maybe I would say, we take on personal responsibility when things go wrong in the world. And that is also where we get caught and stuck. That is where we fall into despair. That is where we like, yes, like be accountable for your actions and yes, like hold grief, but also like you don't have to hold grief alone, Grief can be collective, you don't have to hold accountability alone, like accountability can be collective. And then like within that, like you also get to celebrate together when there is joy. I had a conversation the other day last week, like, we had you and I had tea and then I went and had a walk with another friend. So it was like, right on the kind of tail ends of us talking about this project and stuff. And so, you know, she was struggling with that feeling of like, worthiness, I would say in, in, in a sense, and because yeah, like the post pandemic world, she was definitely feeling really isolated. And so many things, she was saying, I was like, that's what I'm feeling. I was like, Holy shit, like one of my best friends. And it's like, we have not even talked about this yet, because we're so coded to internalize those feelings as well of like, you know, and a lot of it's like, wrapped up in our like imposter syndrome so we don't want to talk about it, and like, oh, what can I as this individual do, but like, we have to, yeah, like you say, like, fully just reject that thing. Like, I only am within the collective, you know, like, I am only going to make that impact if I'm making these connections and making and like caring, and living with mutual aid and mutuality, and whatever, like, I know, that's not like the best way to phrase all of that, and like, people could pull apart what I just said, and that's fine, you can do that. But because, like collective accountability, right, like helped me learn or whatever, like, it's, I walked away feeling so much lighter from that conversation than I had in months, because I was able to say to her, like, you know, you might not be able to change the course of like, the whole world and like, you were one decision to, like, you know, go to this place, or buy this thing or whatever, like, yeah, it's not gonna, you know, like talking more directly about like, oh, yeah, like you boycotting this or you, whatever, whatever, right, like how we choose to live our lives, like, you can't be alone in that. The power within those actions actually comes when we're together, right? What if you want to go to this, like, we're gonna live in these, like, there's smaller worlds within our world, right? Like, in my world, that person, that friend has had an incredible impact. I was like, You have changed my life in so many ways by like, having conversations with me. You know, for like a bit of context. She was one of my roommates at the time when I got pregnant. And it was not planned. And it was like really jarring and kind of scary to have that. And I just had two people in my life who I lived with, who were like, whatever comes next you're welcome here. And we will, like I felt so loved. It changed my fear about pregnancy into like, what's possible, right, and like, what an incredible impact to have on not just my life, but on Rook's life to change that whole way of feeling. Because I had support. So I was able to tell her that and say that, and I was like: look these small little moments, like, they matter too. And like within the bigger context of everything in the world, we need to root into those smaller moments of connection so that we can have more organizing power or whatever.

Thank you for sharing that beautiful, like personal story with you know, yeah, just showing exactly what we're talking about here through your lived experience, which I think is really powerful. And also, feelings have become so the hot topic right now, right? Like people either policing everybody for which kind of feelings are like, allowed or not allowed or like, the other end of it, like, you know, only feelings matter, you know, or feelings happen, but they're not facts, like they're just all over the place. But one thing I have to say is that feelings tell a story. And they aren't just an opinion, then they're beyond an opinion. And, you know, I can never remember the name because it's a Spanish name, but like, there's literally a Spanish word that says feeling-thinking like, you can't think without feeling like they don't separate it. Another thing that the Western world and European Western thought did was separate thought from feeling. And it used to be like, just the same thing. And I think like you're not helping the people in Palestine by just being in despair, or just feeling like stuck in like your allowed to live your personal life in the context where you live, which means having some joy time, dancing time with Rook, or cooking for each other or going for a walk... the Zappatista is really have, it's their 30 year anniversary of them coming out full just just is coming up. And even longer as you know, they started with six people. I love telling that story. Only six people started the Zapatistas back in the 80s. But they, you know, they came out into the world in 1994. I remember because Zach was born in 1994. I always say that two things happened in 1994, that, like that planted, watered all the seeds for my radicalism, it was the Zapatistas. And my kid Zach was born. And so you know, that that's their lesson is that there's joy, there's always joy within coming together. Like we actually do more when we allow for those moments of joy... I want, you know, fuck, e colonization and settler occupation and genocide, like, it's got to end like, you know, and I'm out there, I'm fighting for it. And like, that's who we are, too. We are all of that. We are all of that all the time. And we have, we have more capacity, more power together, when we are allowing the full ecology of our emotions express themselves, or I like to call it— full spectrum of emotions, right? Like, let them let them out, you know, and so, and like, including despair, like despair is actually a powerful emotion it is actually powerful. It has embers burning, depression is not, empire likes to keep us depressed. And I think people have misunderstood what despair is, despair is actually quite powerful. It's like, you know, like, I don't know how you can be part of this world and not have feelings of despair. Like no matter what kind of wealth you have, or what kind of orbit you're in, like, you know, climates, like climate chaos, climate stuff is real. And that if that's not sparking some despair in you, I don't know what you're doing. No judgment, whatever your feelings are your feelings. But I actually came across the word it's called Solatalgia, which means it describes the form of emotional or existential distress caused by environmental change. And it's really about being in your home, and looking out at the world. And no matter what's happening in your home like this is, it's happening. There's an existential distress that's happening, it's something we're all sharing right now, some of us have paid attention longer to it. So it's not just brand new, but all this to say, that belonging, that feeling of belonging, that feeling of feeling connected, a part of something is part of this conversation, a part of that too, of showing up and caring for each other is like, small acts of taking your friends, you know, going on that walk and hearing and reflecting back to them what they've done, how they've impacted your life. It's all of it is watering the seeds for us to be stronger, more, to flourish, to thrive, to be able to undo the fuckery that's fascism and white supremacy and Empire and all the isms that destroy and want to undo our lives. And that, you know, there's always cracks, there's always beauty, there's always joy, there's always light coming through. And who better than a four year old to lead the way for showing us where the light is, you know?

I love that so much and I think it kind of really brings us back to the very core of this project. Why are we doing this now? And I mean, I feel like you kind of just said it, right?

Yeah, because we y’know, Earth isn't dying as such right? Like, we might not be able to live here, humans if we don't do something about it, but mycelium mycelium has got it, it's all good. Like they'll figure it out and those beings and all its collaborators. So we can decide how we can really, really cultivate and work on our connection to our radcestors, which is of course mycelium and all the rest -- the trees and pollinators, and that's probably our best mode and moss.

I was gonna say moss

Like let's be more like moss and brambles and like you know, where we can just decompose empire.

What's one thing, small or large that helps you cultivate belonging?

You know, it's hard for me to do one thing because I have chronic illness so I can sometimes be stuck in bed forever. Because right away, I was like, oh, going for walks, connecting with sounds and scents. Again, I am very sensitive to senses, you know, like roses, smelling roses, smelling the cedar, smelling the moss. But I can always,I can always access it. That's why clouds are really important because I can see the claws from my bed. And that's where that started, when I was really ill for a really long period of time. So yeah, I would say all of that. And then, you know, of course relationship like the, we weren't the first write about it, many people before us, but freedom comes from my word that means dear beloved, and so, you know, freedom is not individualism, bootstrappy, you know, I can do whatever I want, it's literally about another, it's about a connection with another person. So, you know, we frame that in Joyful Militancy as friendship is a root of freedom. And so it is about friendship, it is about having these, these connections that you and I have or that I have with my kids and with Chris and other folks, across distances too like, it doesn't always have to be in person. Another thing that chronic illness can help you know, crip time is called right like you just connect where you can, in different realms and portals digital or otherwise. I think those are probably really important ones. But on a real core core level. And because I do think I do agree with Rilke, that belonging begins with yourself, you have to belong, you have to feel a sense of belonging to self, for it to radiate outwards, is dancing. And even if it's just moving my shoulders, but it's through dance, where I can really come back to that core sense of carla. And I have my, it can be to any music people's, my kids music, Chris playing the guitar, but Burial the artist is really the person who will really, I can never not dance the Burial. So that's why I like to give him a shout out. Thanks Burial.

That's my long winded answer.

That's amazing. Yeah, it's funny thinking of this question too, of like, what helps you feel belonging after basically saying that we're like struggling with belonging for the last hour? I'd say like, there's like, multifaceted here, but like, within my parenting, there are these times where like, you know, my energy has completely depleted. And I noticed that's like, when I'm most irritable. And I have my most like, No, I don't want to have a Pokemon battle. You know, like, my like, Yeah, whatever it might be. And it's not usually about like, being actually tired. Although also like, sleep is hard. And whatever. Typically, it's about like, my brain has been like overstimulated all fucking day. And like, I need a bit of quiet or something like that. And I don't need it to be like, quiet, quiet. And I've noticed... Yeah, like, similarly, music is really helpful to shift what's happening between me and Rook and bring me back into that sense of like, okay, I can be present, I can engage. I can, yeah, be here, whatever. And like, you know, connect. And then like, Rook is so funny because Rook really kind of like, resists a little bit when I want to, like sing and play music and whatever he's like, whatever, Mom already, but since my brother has moved in and become roommates with us and my brother like jams, and like, because he has a bit more freedom within it, like he, I have to, like, look at music and read the music and whatever. I can't just be like, Oh, I'm gonna do a little ditty and kind of come up with stuff off the top of my head. But my brother does that. So he like can engage with Rook in a new way about it.

And it's made me realize that yeah, like those kind of jams as a family are one of the places that I feel such a deep sense of belonging, like oh my god, yes, my relationships with my family is like complicated. And if we're all hanging out, it can be way too much sometimes. And it can, you know, be like, all of your like, teenage triggers come back and you become like, you know, like all of a sudden, any work I've done to host to cultivate like, productive conversations, like goes out the window, but the second and then we all like sing and play music together, like it all goes away. And we're just there we are, loud, and we are like, quite goofy. And it just feels real, so much love and joy and like endorphins, whatever the words are that like is the Like, you know, scientifically firing in my brain to bring that sense of like belonging. So I'm really really like yet again, like twofold here where it's like these things that actually like make me feel good when I do it on my own Rook like, hates it, right, which is like, Oh, I gotta like, figure that out like I love singing, I love yelling, singing and playing music, but Rook doesn't like it when I do that. But that fact that my brother was able to start to bring it back in and engage rook in a new way has made it easier for us to do that more. You know what my dad visits, we do it or when we go up there to my dad's house. And my other brother is around and we play the piano and the guitars and the drums like this, like little drums around, and when we sit around the fire in the backyard, like it's such a healing thing. And by having my oldest brother come and be my roommate, it's come back into my life, which I didn't know I needed. So yeah, also a long winded way. And there's of course a million little things and a million big things that also help me feel belonging. But that one was a cool one that I didn't know I had like, also, it made me a little bit sad that Rook didn't want didn't want me to, right? So it's nice that it's coming back and is accessible again to me. Without pissing off my kid.

I love that. I can really relate. It's probably because you were distracted with learning how...

Oh, 100 percent! Yeah, yep.

That's beautiful. That's gonna resonate for a lot of people. Yeah, oh my gosh, thank you.

Oh, yeah, and the ducks, I spend a lot of time walking over to see these ducks that live in a pond near me and Rook and I often feed them and I often bring friends and guests to see them because it's a really fun, it's just quite an experience to to feed these ducks. And they're just like, they have the, you know, the little duck cackling laughs that you can hear from a distance. And I just kind of, I think maybe know us or maybe they just know our dog. But they, they come over as soon as we're walking up in it's pretty, pretty sweet to feel known by the ducks.

I kind of want to close off by you know, first of all, thanking, you know, just sincerely thanking you, Jamie-Leigh for showing up in my life pre pandemic, and walking, walking through these different changes of this project with me just being open, when I would intuitively be like, Nope, we're not doing the movie anymore, or whatever. And just being so stoked and reflecting back to me that it was trust, but also you had the same intuition. So I just feel really grateful that we did this work together. And, and, you know, the curation too, I think that very, very much together. So it was just very, it's been so collaborative, and so beautiful. And I'm so grateful for everyone who did a story or conversation with us, thank you, every single one of you for this project. I also really want to thank the whole Grounded Futures crew and in particular, Melissa, for being part of our trifecta of Dream Team, who helped us along the way as well, and really, you know, in behind the scenes ways, then we see you, and we love you, and we appreciate you! And Uli and just everybody. And of course, Zach and AwareNess/Chavo for the music that supported each episode. And then of course, our tech wizard, Chris, who worked with each one, you know, to make it accessible and sound sound good. And then finally, everyone who's listening, like we just really appreciate you because ,thank you all out there for being here with us through this fractured, fractured time.

Yeah, I also think like, just, like within that, like, we kind of want to hear what you think like did this make you feel something? we'd love to know what that is.

Yeah, we did talk about like, maybe, you know, maybe there's space for feedback or like not feedback in the, you know, to each one but like, if you if it sparks you to write a poem, or song or story or share your ideas like you know, tag us, will amplify it will you know, we want to hear -- we I think yeah, we want to hear.

This project is bigger than us, so, let it be yours, too. Oh, well, thank you, carla, too. This is like, I don't want to , I don't want to drag it on because that was such a good one. But I do think it's really worth saying like, you know this, like, yes, we're collaborators. But like yeah, I just trust you so much and this is such a great experience for me and I think for everybody that we worked with, I would take that leap and put those words in their mouths by just thank you for the care that you hold in curation because it's really special and, and I've learned a lot through it. So...

Thank you. Thanks, everybody.

Thanks everyone.

May you all find an abundance of connection and belonging everywhere all the time.

All the time.

Thanks for listening to On Belonging. This episode featured a conversation between carla joy and Jamie-Leigh, with music by AwareNess.

On Belonging is curated by carla joy bergman and Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, with tech support by Chris Bergman. The show's awesome theme music is by AwareNess. On Belonging is a Joyful Threads and Grounded Futures creation. Please visit groundedfutures.com for show notes, transcripts, and to read more about On Belonging.

Till next time, keep walking. Keep listening.

These transcripts were generated in Otter, and lightly edited by our team.