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Description
What happens when a community truly embraces neurodiversity and exceptionalities within its midst? Hosts Johan Heinrichs and Wendi Park delve into the heart of inclusivity with guest Tracy Upham, a trauma trainer and foster parent with firsthand experience in parenting children with intellectual disabilities, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, and autism. Upham shares challenges and insights from her journey, emphasizing the need for flexibility, wisdom, and the church's role in fostering a sense of belonging.
With real-life anecdotes from her small, welcoming church, Tracy illustrates how embracing discomfort and valuing each individual's unique gifts can transform both personal faith and community life. The conversation underscores the impact of inclusivity on spiritual growth, urging listeners to shift their perspectives and celebrate the diverse contributions everyone can offer. Both poignant and motivating, this dialogue encourages Christians to embody gospel truths through compassion and openness.
Time Stamps
[05:06] Modern parenting challenges with intellectual and trauma.
[08:35] Congregation engaging with large school, overcoming challenges.
[12:46] Diverse church embraces all, including those with disabilities.
[15:15] Pressure to fit perfect parenting mold, seeking acceptance.
[17:59] Learning from neurodiverse individuals about misconceptions, discipleship.
[21:35] Encouraging message for parents of children with exceptionalities.
[25:57] Embracing discomfort leads to personal and community growth.
[28:15] Live to please God, transform, offer difference.
[30:37] Encouragement for parents of neurodiverse kids.
Other Links
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Transcripts
What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
Speaker:is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
Speaker:love others well through real life stories and honest
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:Hey, it's Johan. Before we get into this interview, I just wanted to let you
Speaker:know that we've had some technical issues with this interview.
Speaker:The Internet was cutting out. So there might be parts of this
Speaker:interview that feel a little bit choppy, but the content was really
Speaker:good. So I encourage you just to look past that and listen to our
Speaker:guest's story. Now onto our conversation with Tracy.
Speaker:Welcome, fellow sojourners, to another curious episode of
Speaker:Journey with Care. I'm on with our co host Wendi
Speaker:Park. Hey, everyone. We are in the midst of our series differently wired in
Speaker:community, and we have another special guest on today. But before we
Speaker:get to that, I wanna remind you that we have another podcast called Journey
Speaker:with Prayer. You can find it now on your favorite podcast player
Speaker:or get early episodes on our website journey with care dot
Speaker:c a slash podcast. You can find it all there. I encourage you to
Speaker:subscribe. And, again, make sure you're sharing this series with friends,
Speaker:family, church members, people in your small groups. These are such
Speaker:important conversations that we believe will bless the body of
Speaker:Christ. Yeah. I've heard so many things, Johan, from people that have been
Speaker:listening and following along with our differently wired and community
Speaker:series that it's easy to share with people, having
Speaker:those conversations, hearing from people that have come through these experience,
Speaker:that are living in these experiences, and it's an easy way
Speaker:to generate conversations, healthy conversations in their
Speaker:communities, in their families, in their threads. I've
Speaker:been seeing that being shared, which is really lovely,
Speaker:and we just want to help people understand
Speaker:neurodiversities, disabilities, mental illness. This series
Speaker:isn't a clinical, place where we're diagnosing
Speaker:people, putting labels, but we're inviting people to share their stories. So
Speaker:for those of you who have been following, you will know that we've been talking
Speaker:about navigating neurodiversities and exceptionalities within
Speaker:the church and community. And how do we do that? How do we really care
Speaker:and create inclusivity and belonging for everyone? We've been
Speaker:talking about autism, bipolar, ADHD. There's so many
Speaker:things there that I know listeners have been
Speaker:blessed by, and we are not disappointing
Speaker:today because today in studio, we have Tracy
Speaker:Upham. She's actually one of our trainers, our trauma trainers on
Speaker:inner team coming from the Hamilton area. And so,
Speaker:Tracy, welcome to the podcast. Hi. Well, we love
Speaker:having our conversations with you, and I'm so excited to share your
Speaker:voice and your experience kids
Speaker:with
Speaker:kids with exceptionalities, living with kids, parenting,
Speaker:ministering to people with exceptionalities. Can you tell us a little bit
Speaker:about yourself and what ties you into this topic of
Speaker:differently wired in community? Sure. For the last about
Speaker:13 years, my husband and I have been foster parents. And
Speaker:the last 6 or 7 years of that,
Speaker:specifically have had kids placed in our home who have had
Speaker:significant challenges, intellectual disabilities, fetal
Speaker:alcohol spectrum disorder. We've done some relief for kiddos who have autism. And
Speaker:so just kind of as our journey has
Speaker:progressed, we have kind of
Speaker:unintentionally found ourselves in
Speaker:this place where we are often caring for kids who have special needs.
Speaker:Yeah. It's interesting. We often don't necessarily know what we don't know,
Speaker:and yet when we find ourselves in situations, we have to get curious.
Speaker:Right? When those those kids came into your life, you
Speaker:needed to educate yourself. They were educating you on the things
Speaker:you didn't know. You didn't find that in a parenting how to
Speaker:book, did you? Definitely not. Definitely not. And I can
Speaker:look back now and see the ways that
Speaker:I think God has both gifted and prepared
Speaker:Keith, my husband, and I for what happens in our
Speaker:house. But I don't know that I always felt
Speaker:that in the moment that those experiences were
Speaker:happening. But, yeah, I I mean, I think as a foster parent,
Speaker:even for our kiddos who come into our homes who don't
Speaker:necessarily have a diagnosed neurodiversity
Speaker:that you could, you know, put a label on, even
Speaker:just the experience of attachment disruption
Speaker:and and trauma, those already kind of create sort
Speaker:of like a a I mean, I kind of talk about how I think all
Speaker:kids who are part of the child welfare system probably fit into that
Speaker:special needs population because they do need to be
Speaker:parented in a different way. They do have experiences Right. That
Speaker:have possibly made it so that traditional parenting is not
Speaker:going to be effective or going to be as helpful.
Speaker:Specifically, the last couple of years, seeing how intellectual
Speaker:disabilities or executive functioning challenges in, you know, fetal alcohol
Speaker:spectrum or something like that mesh with that
Speaker:trauma experience or that attachment disruption can
Speaker:be really interesting and can create some
Speaker:real complexities. I find that sometimes
Speaker:the information that you're getting from a population of,
Speaker:you know, parents who are caring for a child who has
Speaker:autism, let's say, or Down syndrome or some sort of intellectual disability who
Speaker:they have raised since birth and there hasn't been any attachment difficulty.
Speaker:Sometimes that advice doesn't quite fit, but then also sometimes some of the
Speaker:trauma stuff doesn't quite fit either because not only are they
Speaker:experiencing trauma, but they also then have these intellectual
Speaker:challenges or these executive functioning challenges that
Speaker:can make that part really tricky. And so we're always trying to kind of
Speaker:figure out, okay, what's the best way for us to meet these
Speaker:kids where they where they are, and who has
Speaker:God made them, and how can we look to him
Speaker:to kind of figure out, okay. God, how would you have us lead these kids?
Speaker:How would you have us love them? How would you have us care for them?
Speaker:What does it look like? What's the best thing for them? And that
Speaker:has not always been the same. And so there's been a lot of learning to
Speaker:to be flexible and a lot of learning to to be flexible and a lot
Speaker:of learning to to ask for wisdom. But I do think that we've also, throughout
Speaker:the last, you know, 13 years, I think that we have also picked up some
Speaker:skills and hopefully are a little bit better at what we do than we were,
Speaker:you know, 13 years ago. That's my hope by least. Well, you've said a lot
Speaker:of good things there, and and children are often the best
Speaker:educators Wendi we listen and we lean in. How do we connect?
Speaker:And you raised something interesting, not only the intellectual disabilities
Speaker:or or the challenges and the complexities, but the trauma piece,
Speaker:it does change the biology and the neurology of the brain. Right?
Speaker:And so then how do we work with those wirings if there's there's
Speaker:levels of healing that can be found? But I love that you
Speaker:bring your experience into our trauma care training,
Speaker:and helping people connect well with people that
Speaker:are differently wired based on trauma. When something
Speaker:triggers them, how do we deescalate the brain so you can have that
Speaker:connection? You've had a lot of experience. You also came in with experience
Speaker:from a ministry perspective. Right? Through a church ministry,
Speaker:pastoral staff role with children. Can you tell me a
Speaker:little bit how that has informed some of your perspective
Speaker:on neurodiversities, intellectual disabilities within the
Speaker:church setting. Yeah. I don't think there's a time in my
Speaker:life, at least prior to maybe 10 years old, that I
Speaker:haven't been involved in taking care of kids
Speaker:or working with kids or whatever. Like, that that's been a given
Speaker:from a very, very young age. But, yeah, through university, I moved to
Speaker:Hamilton because that's not where I'm from originally, and I worked, at
Speaker:the church that we still attend as their children family
Speaker:minister. And it is a church that is in kind of a higher
Speaker:needs area of the city. We had a lot of
Speaker:kiddos who just life was hard. There was a lot
Speaker:of of toxic stress, a lot of uncertainty. So
Speaker:this the church story that we are at, there is a school
Speaker:directly behind it. And so it was becoming really important to the congregation
Speaker:that they engage with this school, this, you know, 800
Speaker:plus kids, because this is not a small school, it's a very large school.
Speaker:How do we engage with this, you know, 800 plus group of kids?
Speaker:So very early on, one of the things that we saw was as we started
Speaker:to engage with kids, they would show up on Sunday morning,
Speaker:but they had no concept of what a Sunday morning church
Speaker:experience would look like. And so sometimes, they would bring families with
Speaker:them, but sometimes, they would just kind of show up. And so I think that
Speaker:our congregation had to kind of learn pretty quickly
Speaker:how to be welcoming to disruption,
Speaker:how to be okay with explaining to this child in the
Speaker:middle of the service, like why we were taking communion
Speaker:or why people are raising their hands while they're
Speaker:singing or all of these different pieces. And so, I
Speaker:mean, we did have a Sunday school program that they would go to for part
Speaker:of the time. But still today, our kids start
Speaker:their their Sunday with us in the service, and we worship together.
Speaker:And so that was kind of an introduction to our church
Speaker:to kind of be a little bit to be a little bit okay with
Speaker:being maybe uncomfortable with things not looking the way that
Speaker:maybe always had looked or people kind of thought that they they looked.
Speaker:And there were challenges with that for sure.
Speaker:But I look back now, well, almost 20 years
Speaker:ago, and I really think that
Speaker:those kids kind of broke us in, in a
Speaker:lot of ways to being a lot
Speaker:more comfortable with taking ourselves less
Speaker:seriously, not having this really, like, formalized idea of you need
Speaker:to be quiet, and you need to sit in this place, and don't speak. And
Speaker:I see that now because now our congregation has such
Speaker:an interesting population of
Speaker:adults who have, developmental disabilities, or we have a
Speaker:young man who has autism that worships
Speaker:with us, and they are beautiful. They are sometimes hilarious. You know,
Speaker:sometimes they'll make comments or they'll kind of
Speaker:shout something out in the middle of service, and it's normally
Speaker:fantastic. It's normally the thing that everybody is thinking and nobody wants to
Speaker:say. Yeah. And they have been such a blessing
Speaker:to us. Well, that is really neat to hear, Tracy,
Speaker:because not only have children impacted how you parent and
Speaker:interact with children, but it sounds like as your
Speaker:church welcomed and created space and colored outside the lines a
Speaker:bit in creating space for for children with
Speaker:exceptionalities and differences that it has
Speaker:taught the church. It has influenced the church in how
Speaker:you all operate together, how you function and create space for
Speaker:each other. What do you think have been some of
Speaker:those key things that have created that safety for children to be
Speaker:children, for adults with exceptionalities to
Speaker:to just be their whole selves with you. What are some of
Speaker:those things that have created that ability
Speaker:to be themselves within a a diverse
Speaker:congregation? I should say to start that our church is a
Speaker:pretty small group. So we're probably about 60
Speaker:people maybe on a Sunday morning, and I think that that
Speaker:matters in that there's kind of an
Speaker:expectation if you're around for
Speaker:more than a couple weeks, you are going to know
Speaker:several people. Right? Like, it's not the type of place that's huge, and
Speaker:so you can show up for a couple weeks without really meeting a lot of
Speaker:people. You're gonna meet someone very quickly within
Speaker:coming through the door. And if you're there for more than, you know, 1 or
Speaker:2 weeks, you're going to meet even more people. And so I think that that's
Speaker:part of it is just the the commitment to
Speaker:welcoming one another, to touching base with new faces. And because we're small,
Speaker:we can see those new faces very, very easily. Yeah. I think for
Speaker:a long time, our church has kind of represented
Speaker:our neighborhood in that there's a very
Speaker:diverse group of people already, so
Speaker:a very diverse group in terms of socioeconomic status for
Speaker:sure. And that has been decades that that has been the
Speaker:case. And so I I think that there's already this sense
Speaker:of people from different places that other than the
Speaker:church wouldn't really come together, and
Speaker:already kind of journeying together and being like, oh, you
Speaker:have something to bring to the table. And so I think as that
Speaker:has grown to include more recently
Speaker:kids and adults who have developmental disabilities or,
Speaker:you know, whatever kind of special needs. I think that that has laid
Speaker:a good foundation. We also have some really lovely
Speaker:parents, and, I mean, we do have some child like childcare
Speaker:providers, EAs, teachers who have a really good head on
Speaker:their shoulders around kids development, but
Speaker:also just, like, how important it is for kids to be able to
Speaker:be kids and for kids to be celebrated. And even some of
Speaker:our older members who aren't raising children
Speaker:anymore, but have this real
Speaker:commitment to our kids,
Speaker:especially, and wanting them to know Jesus, but
Speaker:wanting them to know Jesus in a way that works for them and not re
Speaker:like, recognizing that they're not necessarily going to just sit in one
Speaker:place quietly and, you know, receive.
Speaker:So it's not uncommon in our church to kind of see
Speaker:different kids dancing in the aisles or, you know,
Speaker:there are kids that are helping do actions for songs or singing songs.
Speaker:It's not uncommon for kids to kind of
Speaker:come and, like, go throughout even the first part of the
Speaker:service while they're together. And so that's kind of just
Speaker:created an environment of, okay, this is a place where I can bring my
Speaker:kids who might struggle with a sense of, oh, you need to sit
Speaker:still and you need to listen and you can't speak and you
Speaker:can't ever smile. I don't I don't know. That's probably a
Speaker:terrible example of what church looks like anywhere. But I think
Speaker:sometimes we get these ideas of, like, the
Speaker:perfect Christian kid is this, like, such a
Speaker:heavily behaviorist model. And and not only that, but the
Speaker:parents too, that we have this perfect image of how a
Speaker:good parent raises their children and you all sit still and be a
Speaker:Pinterest family down the pew. Right? Where those
Speaker:pressures come from, who knows? But I I like what you
Speaker:said, though. Like, I think that that rings true for all humanity.
Speaker:When I see somebody else bear their whole self in
Speaker:front of others and be accepted and welcomed and
Speaker:treated with love and dignity, I'm more likely
Speaker:to drop my mask and say, you know what? When you ask me
Speaker:how am I doing and I say I'm struggling right now, I'm gonna be more
Speaker:vulnerable, feel more safe to be my authentic self
Speaker:or to share, like, I like to do this quirky thing. You know?
Speaker:I believe that we might all come in with different exceptionalities
Speaker:or different circumstances. But when we see that emulated,
Speaker:when a person with Down syndrome is dancing in the front
Speaker:or somebody with FASD is is
Speaker:helping with the children, But when I see those things incorporated,
Speaker:then I think, well, maybe my children with these exceptionalities
Speaker:or myself with these types of conditions can also be
Speaker:welcome. And so we can create that belonging without
Speaker:all having cookie cutter same circumstances because we're all
Speaker:different. Right? Yeah. There's one woman specifically that I'm thinking
Speaker:about. I mean, I don't know if she has a specific diagnosis or whatever, but
Speaker:I know there's definitely some sort of, I don't know if it's, like,
Speaker:a mild intellectual disability or or what. And she will every
Speaker:week, she will offer you a mint, and she will ask you, like, how are
Speaker:you doing? And she she does. She wants a real answer,
Speaker:and she will immediately ask if she can pray for you.
Speaker:And then she will remind you of the things that are true about
Speaker:God. And so she will give you a hug, and she will tell you God
Speaker:loves you. God is with you. You need to trust him. Like,
Speaker:all of these things that sounds like potentially
Speaker:simple things because I make Christianity really
Speaker:complicated in my head. So, Tracy, how
Speaker:have these experiences with this woman that has
Speaker:a woman that has blessed you, with your children,
Speaker:the the people that you have been working with in your congregation in
Speaker:a pastoral role. But now as a congregation member coming with your
Speaker:family, how has the how have
Speaker:these experiences impacted your own faith and
Speaker:understanding of God? You you've mentioned that it simplified
Speaker:your theology in in some ways of of not making
Speaker:it so complicated. What other ways have you been
Speaker:impacted? Yeah. God has definitely used the
Speaker:example of both adults and kiddos who
Speaker:maybe have different, neurodiversities or
Speaker:special needs to teach me a lot about places
Speaker:where I was believing things that weren't true. Or even
Speaker:if I said out loud, oh, yeah. Like, I believe that God
Speaker:loves me and that God, isn't waiting for me to, like, have
Speaker:everything figured out. But the way that I was living was still very
Speaker:much a, oh, I need to have everything figured out. And so especially
Speaker:so we just recently, adopted 2 of the
Speaker:kiddos that we had been fostering. And so they lived with us for years,
Speaker:but they were just placed with us on adoption in March. And
Speaker:part of the last several years of
Speaker:just getting to know them and and love them, and especially as we kind
Speaker:of started to think about adoption and see them
Speaker:as part of our family, thinking about, okay, what does
Speaker:it look like to disciple these kiddos
Speaker:who, you know, don't necessarily always
Speaker:look like what comes to my mind maybe.
Speaker:And and I'm not saying that that's a good picture. I'm not saying that,
Speaker:yeah, I think that that is a poor picture that I have, and that's
Speaker:not not healthy. But, you know, my kiddos
Speaker:really struggle with impulse control. They really struggle with executive functioning. They
Speaker:struggle with emotional regulation. Mhmm. Sometimes when they get mad, the things that
Speaker:come out of their mouth are pretty ugly. Sometimes when I get mad, the things
Speaker:that come out of my mouth are pretty ugly, and that's not something that
Speaker:we normally talk about. And so having to sit and say,
Speaker:okay. God, if I believe that you
Speaker:made these kiddos, And, yeah, some things
Speaker:happened that were not in your original plan for the
Speaker:world, but I also have to believe that at this
Speaker:point in my kids' lives, this is how you've created
Speaker:them. And so what what does it mean for them to love and to
Speaker:follow you when they might struggle with all
Speaker:sorts of different behaviors as kiddos? But even as adults, like, looking for like, they're
Speaker:at risk for a lot of things that, you know,
Speaker:from your typical, like, Sunday school ideas are
Speaker:not what a Christian adult looks like. And that
Speaker:was challenging for me. But I think that God has used that
Speaker:to strip away all of the sense of presenting this
Speaker:this religious self and just saying, like, it is it is not about that. Like,
Speaker:it is about loving god. And and I see that in my
Speaker:kids. Even now, you know, they're 8 and they're 10. But, man, my 8 year
Speaker:old, she loves Jesus. And, yeah, like, there are
Speaker:things that she struggles with, and there's things where she'll say, oh,
Speaker:mommy, it's hard to follow Jesus. It
Speaker:sure is, girl. Amen. Amen. But, man,
Speaker:like, she she loves Jesus, and Yeah. And I can see
Speaker:it. And so I think that that has been such
Speaker:a gift, such a necessary work in me because God has used that
Speaker:stripping away to then say, okay, Trace. I'm not all that
Speaker:impressed or concerned. Like, I, you know, you've got all this stuff that you're trying
Speaker:to prove and you're doing and whatever and, like, cool. Yeah. That's
Speaker:not what it's about. And so would you let
Speaker:me love you? And would you, you know, take a breath for
Speaker:a minute? Yeah. That has been the biggest
Speaker:gift. It has not been comfortable, but it has
Speaker:been so good and such a shift
Speaker:in my understanding of Jesus. Well, I think that's so encouraging,
Speaker:Tracy, because I think that will bring bring a lot of,
Speaker:encouragement to other parents and other people, maybe
Speaker:even living with exceptionalities. And even
Speaker:when we love Jesus and your daughter
Speaker:expressing her love for Jesus, but that doesn't take
Speaker:away some of the intellectual disabilities
Speaker:or if there's FASD involved. There is changes within the
Speaker:brain, things that have happened or things that are part of their brain
Speaker:that doesn't take away those challenges.
Speaker:And I think there's something there that we need to to
Speaker:pay attention to in what you just said that though
Speaker:we struggle in this world, it doesn't take
Speaker:away from your daughter's value when
Speaker:impulse control is one of those things or outbursts or or
Speaker:or different challenges that she's facing. She can love Jesus and
Speaker:still be challenged there physiologically,
Speaker:and god doesn't see her as less than because she
Speaker:can't sit still. He says, let the children come and don't
Speaker:hinder, and you have been navigating. You said it's not easy,
Speaker:right, to not let those things hinder her from
Speaker:loving Jesus and feeling welcomed and included. I think
Speaker:there's there's a lot that we can learn in the church. And how have you
Speaker:navigated discomfort? You could have chosen
Speaker:not to raise these children. You could have chosen not to go forward with
Speaker:permanency and adoption. You could have chosen to go to a
Speaker:different church where it's neat and tidy and perfect, quote,
Speaker:unquote. Why have you chosen that difficult path?
Speaker:And help us understand what navigating
Speaker:difficulty looks like to be faithful. Yeah. I think
Speaker:it's been a a struggle for me because somewhere
Speaker:along the line, I picked up an idea
Speaker:that life should be relatively
Speaker:easy, and that things that were supposed to happen
Speaker:would, like, kind of happen, you know, naturally or without a
Speaker:lot of of effort. And I I don't really know where that necessarily
Speaker:comes from, but suffering and discomfort
Speaker:have been the main places where Jesus has met me. And so
Speaker:it kind of very quickly came to the point of like,
Speaker:well, this is uncomfortable, and I don't really like it.
Speaker:But I also cannot argue that these are the places where Jesus is
Speaker:showing up in my life. And, I mean, there have been times where I'm like,
Speaker:I don't wanna do this. I'm done. Like, I wanna cut myself
Speaker:off completely from all things. But I
Speaker:also am so aware that that would be not what
Speaker:Jesus has for me at all. And so I think
Speaker:a lot of the last 5 years, especially, have been
Speaker:learning again and again and again that
Speaker:life is not supposed to be easy, and that just because something's hard
Speaker:doesn't mean that it's bad. That often, the things that are
Speaker:most important to God require
Speaker:yeah. Like, intentionality, I guess I'll say, because that's the one that's doing
Speaker:the work, but we need to be intentional. And so I think that
Speaker:one of the things that, as a society, we're not necessarily great at is staying
Speaker:in those places of uncomfort or discomfort and of suffering. So, I
Speaker:mean, I think community has been a huge part of that. Like, we are very,
Speaker:very blessed to have, other Christian
Speaker:families around us who are living lives that look
Speaker:different than what they anticipated they would. I think that
Speaker:there has been a journey of having to grieve some of the
Speaker:things that I thought life would look like. And in that
Speaker:grief, God has allowed me to be a
Speaker:little bit more comfortable Johan in in some of those places where
Speaker:before I really wasn't. And I think just in the last
Speaker:couple of years, in my own personal life, looking at some spiritual
Speaker:disciplines that really set me in intentionally at looking at, okay,
Speaker:what is God doing? What has God done in the past? What has God done,
Speaker:you know, last week, and how am I seeing him at work? I think
Speaker:that those things have allowed me to stay in the discomfort
Speaker:because there is just no denying that it is the
Speaker:place which where Jesus is.
Speaker:Well and I can testify, Tracy, that I see Christ in
Speaker:you and you choosing discomfort, you choosing
Speaker:to work across your own comfort lines
Speaker:has made you into a better, more Jesus
Speaker:like person. And now not only are you
Speaker:being willing to be discomforted, you are being driven
Speaker:to into places that often churches find
Speaker:discomforting, and you are training up churches to enter into the
Speaker:people's distress in a in honoring and dignifying way.
Speaker:And I love that that not only God has been doing that in
Speaker:you and making you a wonderful person. I love having coffee with you when
Speaker:I Wendi I'm down in Ontario and just feeling
Speaker:that from you. But you are now in introducing that
Speaker:into churches, into camps, into ministries so that they
Speaker:too can enter in with a few skills and tools that you have picked up
Speaker:and our team has picked up along the way, and you are blessing
Speaker:many other people. So, Tracy, I was wondering if you
Speaker:could invite us, invite our listeners, invite
Speaker:me into what that process could look like to enter into
Speaker:discomfort. What can I be learning? Why should I do it?
Speaker:Tell me a little bit more about what we can be learning
Speaker:by being inclusive and embracing differences
Speaker:and getting out of our comfort. Well, I think one of the lessons
Speaker:that I kind of already, you know, alluded to was that Jesus
Speaker:is in the hard places. And so, yeah,
Speaker:I think being uncomfortable is often
Speaker:a part of the package. And
Speaker:so I think the church in North America
Speaker:kind of has picked up these different ideas that I'm not sure
Speaker:are actually kind of gospel truths.
Speaker:They're kind of more cultural. But we we live in a world that
Speaker:is so dressed about
Speaker:independence, about personal success, about
Speaker:doing everything and having everything and being
Speaker:everything. And I think the lesson is
Speaker:that we are called to be a community. We are not called to be
Speaker:individuals doing our own things on our own strength. Like, that was never
Speaker:the purpose. But whatever it is that you do,
Speaker:do it. Do it to please God and do it, to bring
Speaker:glory to him. And so I think that it gets us outside of kind of
Speaker:our, like, North American culture of this is the way life is
Speaker:supposed to look. So I think that that gives us an
Speaker:opportunity to live differently and to to be
Speaker:uncomfortable, for sure. Those are the places that I've met Jesus the most.
Speaker:And so I think that is the thing for the church, to be transformed by
Speaker:the Holy Spirit, to offer a different gospel to
Speaker:our culture as well because, you know, I don't think that those
Speaker:things are necessarily healthy for our culture all the time. And so what does
Speaker:the church have to offer to the world around us? A
Speaker:lot of what we have to offer are, are actually some of those lessons that
Speaker:I've been learning from my kids and from the adults at church
Speaker:who, you know, from the world's perspective, they don't really have anything
Speaker:to offer. Like they're kind of they they've kind of been shoved into a place
Speaker:of, well, they're receiving care from someone somewhere,
Speaker:but they're not expected to bring anything to the table. And I would say that
Speaker:the exact opposite is true. They bring so much to the table, and I've been
Speaker:so blessed, and so challenged in
Speaker:how I live out my own faith by their examples.
Speaker:Yeah. That is so powerful, Tracy. Yeah. And don't
Speaker:we all theologically, we should know this. But
Speaker:are we practicing? Don't we all need each other and need
Speaker:God To to learn from people who might
Speaker:be considered church projects or people to be cared
Speaker:for, but to be actually receiving lessons from
Speaker:God through individuals who understand their
Speaker:need for community, who want to contribute and be part of
Speaker:it, not based on intellectuality or or all these things that
Speaker:we might esteem in the world that kinda qualifies us in.
Speaker:But that we are all made in the image of God. We are all needing
Speaker:community, and God has value and
Speaker:purpose and plans for each one of us lived out in
Speaker:community. Tracy, this has been a wonderful conversation, and I'm so grateful that
Speaker:you were able to share your experiences, how God has
Speaker:been challenging you, and I I believe it's a challenge for each one of us.
Speaker:Is there any last comment that you would like to to put out there,
Speaker:before we conclude this episode? Yeah. I think I'd love to go in a
Speaker:slightly different direction, but speak to
Speaker:people who are parenting kiddos who have neurodiversities,
Speaker:because sometimes that can be a really
Speaker:challenging and a really lonely journey. And so I think I would
Speaker:just want to encourage them to keep
Speaker:looking for places where their family can be
Speaker:celebrated, to know that their kiddos are, are made in
Speaker:the image of God and to know that, man,
Speaker:hard stuff is often the places where Jesus meets
Speaker:us, that we can't do things on our own strength, but that
Speaker:God gives us the Holy Spirit. And yeah, to
Speaker:maybe be free to take off some of
Speaker:the mental baggage of what our kids should be able to do or
Speaker:what our kids should look like and to, to really
Speaker:see if we can look for,
Speaker:God, what is it that you are teaching me through these kids?
Speaker:Or, you know, what gift have you given them
Speaker:for the church or for our family or for
Speaker:our community? Because I I know that that can be
Speaker:a really hard road to to walk. That is so good. Thank
Speaker:you so much, Tracy, for coming on. Encouragement for our listeners,
Speaker:we've heard some great feedback on this series so far, and I encourage
Speaker:you to share it with others. Share it in your churches. Share
Speaker:it with your friends, small groups. These are important discussions
Speaker:that we really believe are important for the church
Speaker:to really rally around, and they make for great discussions with your friends and
Speaker:family around the table. We still have some more interviews for you, so
Speaker:keep following along with us. Thank you
Speaker:for joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
Speaker:inspire curious Canadians on their path of faith and living life
Speaker:with purpose in community. Journey with Care is an initiative of
Speaker:Care Impact, a Canadian charity dedicated to connecting and equipping
Speaker:the whole church to journey well in community. You can visit their
Speaker:website at careimpact. Ca, or visit journeywithcare. Ca to
Speaker:get more information on weekly episodes, Journey With and
Speaker:details about our upcoming events and meetups. You can also leave
Speaker:us a message, share your thoughts, and connect with like minded
Speaker:individuals who are on their own journeys of faith and purpose.
Speaker:Thank you for sharing this podcast and helping these stories reach the community.
Speaker:Together, we can explore ways to journey in a good way. And
Speaker:always remember to stay curious.
