On today's episode, Tazmin chats with Jordan about the SEO job market and how to scale your SEO talent.

About Jordan:

Jordan is the CEO and Co-Founder of Previsible, a Search Education and Consulting practice. They currently support Fortune 100 companies with investments into organic search. He is also a key advisor and board member within the search, software, and ecommerce industries.

Where to find Jordan:

Jordan's Website

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Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us for another episode of the SEO Mindset podcast with myself, Tazmin Suleman. In today's episode, I'm talking to Jordan Koene about the SEO job market and how to scale your SEO talent. Jordan is CEO and co founder of Previsible, a search education and consulting Practise. They currently support Fortune 100 companies with investments in organic search. He's also a key advisor and board member within the search software and ecommerce industry. Now, before we dive into the podcast topic for the week, a gentle reminder that if you're enjoying our podcast and find the content valuable, then you can support us by donating via Buy Me a Coffee. There is a link in the Show Notes and you'll get more information there. Another way to support us is by subscribing to the podcast so you'll never miss an episode. Go to theseomindset/listen and again, that link is in the show notes.

So, Jordan, welcome. How are you doing?

Very well, Tazmin. Really excited to be here with you today and sharing with your podcast listeners.

So Jordan, do you want to tell us a little bit about I mean, I've introduced you to do you want to tell us a little bit more about yourself and then we can get into the topic of today?

Absolutely. I have kind of a unique background in the sense that just about my entire career has been in the SEO space. Few deviations there from time to time, but for the most part, I've basically been focused on organic search. I started in the early 2000s. So in 2001, I built a Spanish bookstore, my Libros.com, and I gained some recognition in the SEO space because I was outranking Amazon for Spanish book titles, both in English and in Spanish author names, categories. And back then, if I may remind our listeners, some of them might not know this, but Amazon only sold books. So I was going head to head against this 800 pound gorilla and everyone was wondering, how is this kid in St Louis, Missouri? That's where I was living at the time, beating out this investment banker, going to the moon extraordinaire entrepreneur Jeff Bezos. And it was partly dumb luck. My father was a teacher and he told me to apply for all these school districts where you can become a licenced vendor or approved vendor. And when that would happen, I'd get the webmaster of the school district and I would send him an HTML page that would promote my business and they would upload that page on all these.edu websites. And back then, if you had a link from a website, it was like gold. So this unbeknownst strategy recommended by my father, who candidly doesn't really know what I'm doing, ended up really panning out and helping scale my little bookstore. But that started my career. I've had a lot of fun working for various enterprise sites throughout the spent four and a half years at Ebay as the director of SEO and Content development, six years at Search Metrics as the CEO of the company, which is a large data player and platform in the SEO space. And then now, recently, as you shared, I am the CEO, co founder of Previsible, where we're an agency consultancy, but also focused on really people development. We have a whole recruiting arm to our business, where we help recruit and place talent in companies, as well as a training division where we're working with, training and developing teams as well as individuals and believe strongly that is a key ingredient to the future success of Seos.

And we will be talking about the SEO job market today and your advice on it. So tell me, we were talking before about how the roles within SEO professionals have changed and the demand has changed. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

Absolutely. Over the course of the last ten or so years, what you notice is that there's a real transition around how companies and organisations think about SEO. It was a novelty a decade ago, even 15 years ago, in the sense that maybe there was a small community of large enterprises that really knew how to build it out, really understood how to deal with the product components of SEO as well as the content and marketing components of SEO. And that has really expanded where now there are SEO roles in traditional companies, everything from financial institutions to grocery stores to all kinds of different verticals. But we're also seeing a transition in terms of how the SEO role plays in vital ecosystems. One of the most exciting things living here in the Bay Area is I'm seeing venture capital as well as private equity firms. Companies who are investing in startups hire Seos and have them sit at the table of making these key decisions of whether I invest, how should I think about the SEO journey of this company before I buy? And I think that that's really valuable because it changes the playing field of what is the responsibility of an SEO and how do we communicate about the business value that this channel drives and not just the tactical changes and tweaks that we might make to a website. But more broadly, how does this relate to the financials, the leadership and the entire people behind a company?

So what's changed then?

There's a difference in the sense that Seos now have a different place at the table. So they're sitting at a different table than before. Right? Before that table was, hey, file a ticket and maybe I'll consider doing this. And now the conversation has moved way upstream to, is this the right investment for my company? And if so, how do I invest? And so that's a really key place to be in our sister industry, right? Our paid search industry. They were at that table a long time ago. They were at the strategy table a long time ago because it was dollars and cents, right? Some CMO was going to give you $100 million to go invest in paid search and you better get me an ROI on this, right? And SEO took a while to really get to that level of strategy and exposure. And we're there now, and I candidly believe that much more so than where we were ten years ago as an industry. The other thing that's changed dramatically is the opportunities for all of us as Seos has radically changed. There is a whole different set of companies and organisations, even agencies. There's a whole set of agencies who are hiring on Seos that just 510 years ago would have never thought of hiring an SEO. Creative agencies, PR agencies, all these organisations are bringing on SEO talent to be part of their ecosystem. And that creates new opportunities for us. It creates different work life balance environments. It creates new development and growth opportunities if we want to learn new skills. I used to hear a lot from Seos ten years ago. I really hate the fact that I'm an SEO because I have no mobility. I can't go in any other direction. I can maybe become a product manager or maybe become like a content marketer, but I don't want to do either of those. And today there's more opportunities across other verticals and across other industries than ever before.

Would you be able to give us some examples? You were saying that SEO is now at the table. There will be companies where they're not yet. What would be your advice to those?

That's a great question, Tazmin. And it's a real challenge, I think, for some SEOs when you're not sitting at the table and you feel like you might be marginalised or deprioritized in your organisation. And there's a couple of key pieces to that journey, and one of them is really spending time looking inward at what is the value drivers that SEO is aligning to with respect to the business. And one of the realities is that there's a lot of companies who choose to invest in SEO but don't understand the value drivers and don't understand the connection of what this channel can do and how it can generate growth or traffic awareness. Awareness versus revenue, those are two very different animals. If you don't spend time really thinking that through, that's the first step, because then you don't actually know what the message is to either get to the table or maybe realise that, quite candidly, this is an organisation that is not going to be able to fulfil the expectations that you have as an SEO and how you want to show up every day. So the reality here is understanding the connection of that business and its value drivers to SEO is absolutely critical. And that isn't just about, hey, I need to go have a meeting with the CEO about this. That is actually having meetings with everybody who supports the business. It's getting people on the CFO's department and getting their input and what they think about SEO and how their belief system is around the channel. The CMO and their organisational members, the CTO and the CPO and all the product individuals and how they expect and what they want from SEO. If you're not collecting that from all those groups, you're going to have a really hard time formulating the strategy, but most importantly, conveying the value to the organisation or knowing full well that this organisation isn't ready to invest. And that happens a lot, especially at startups. You get this great opportunity to go join a startup, but they actually don't have an organisation that's prepared to invest and support SEO. So to answer your question very specifically and succinctly, because I can go on sometimes, and I apologise for that, it's really the ability for you as an SEO, to understand how you're connecting to the business values and if those are aligned.

Going back to your much more exciting scenario of there are all these organisations who are willing to invest. They get it. There's a wide variety of organisations now which will offer different work life balances. So if somebody was starting in the SEO world now, paint a picture for them of all of the different facets that they could go down, all of the different routes that they could go down.

Oh, boy.

Maybe not all of them.

Yeah, there's a lot now which is great, you know? You know, I think that there's a couple of things that have changed recently that are really important to highlight. Just a few years ago, there are really kind of a couple of channels that you could go, right? There was this mentality of you can go in house or you can go agency. Right? That was a reality. And fortunately for us, because of COVID there's this new channel that really emerged in the SEO space, which is the freelancer. Right. I saw a massive shift in the job market just before post COVID and for the years following COVID, where the volume of freelancers people who are leaving agencies, individuals and talent that were going away from being in house were saying, hey, I want to be on my own. I don't want to be attached to this organisational function and these two paths. And I think that was great. We needed that because freelancers have always been a part of the SEO space, but in many cases, the talent and the quality of the talent in that job pool was really low. Variety of reasons, right? Maybe there's language barriers, experience barriers. Just the ability to really support organisations in the right way was very restricted in that freelancer space. But today I find freelancers who are top notch, not only experts in the tactics, but also great at conveying the message, building the PowerPoint presentation to go to the CMO or whoever, the whole range and gamut, and I love that. And we needed that. And so there's this new channel now, which is the freelancer in the marketplace of talent has really evolved quite a bit in the last couple of years. And I think we should all be mindful of that because it allows us to create mobility if we feel stuck in a role. The other thing that's really changed is in these other two traditional paths, go in house or go agency, the volume of new channels, new categories of work has expanded tremendously. I mean, the other month I got a phone call and it was the craziest. I was just baffled by this call. Honestly. I really didn't know what to do. It was a railway company, BNSF railway, massive commercial rail company. They ship all of the iPhones from the west coast to the east coast on these trains and do all that. And they're calling me up and they're like, hey, we want to do SEO. And I was like, I have no idea what to do for you. I don't even know where to begin. You put stuff on a train and you move it. How on earth am I going to help you find people in Google? It was baffling. But this is to the extent that SEO has gotten, which is all companies are thinking about the channel and what it does is it should give you pause as an SEO to think, what kind of environment do I want to be in? What kind of company culture? What kind of product do I want to be associated to? Does it speak to me? Does it encourage me to be excited when I wake up in the morning because I'm working for a product that is a nonprofit that's well funded? Awesome. That's amazing. Then you can go and find that SEO role. And those opportunities weren't here just five years ago. So that should give you pause to really find an environment that speaks to you.

I'm just thinking, if I would have thought, I want to work for a company that is a train company that transports.

Right. I'm still lost on that one, but I definitely wish them best of luck. I'm here to talk to you if you want to talk. I don't know what to do.

Is there any difference in geography? Are there any countries that are moving faster than others?

Lovely question. And working at Search Metrics for six years. I had this amazing opportunity to engage and work with many Europeans during that time and be very connected to both not only the dock and German market because that's where the company was founded and headquartered, but also many other clients and customers through the Nordic or other regions in Europe. And I really had a hard time believing this notion that was constantly shared with me, which is Europe is a couple of years behind in the SEO space compared to their North American counterparts. I never really believed that. I think that the approach may have been slightly different and some of the both cultural, but maybe even business environment was different. But I didn't necessarily believe that the talent and the mindset that was in Europe was radically different or behind. I actually would learn a tonne every time I talked to my European counterparts, every time I talked to an SEO that was in one of our clients. And so I think that's one of the things we really need to steer clear from are these blanket statement assumptions that we're like, oh, the entire European market is just behind on this. Not true, and hasn't been for a long time, in my opinion, if it even ever was. What I'm trying to say now, when we look at other regions and other markets, there's certainly some big differences. There's big differences in terms of how you execute on strategy, how budgets and decisions are made in these organisations and companies, and even how they resource or think about resourcing SEO. But one of the beautiful things that we're seeing here at Previsible is that LATAM markets are really coming a long way in terms of their ability to develop talent. Take someone who's a junior SEO and then grow them. And we're also seeing a lot of in house Seos develop out of the LATAM market, which I think is super exciting because it used to be a heavy agency space and that's, again, part of that shift that we were talking about earlier. One of the interesting things that I fundamentally believe is that as access to technology and as access to data has become more and more prolific in the SEO space, the talent level has equalised and has become much more normalised across markets. We have got to give credit to some of the companies that have helped us do this. You look at a company like Semrush, they have 100,000 customers globally and they're going to keep growing. And that's access to data and that creates a level playing field for Seos and SEO professionals. So to answer your question, sorry again, over winded response here, but the access to data and the access to technology at a faster pace has helped Seos across all markets level up and there's never been more of a level playing field with respect to the geography you're in. Also, COVID has helped there. I mean, I've seen so many talented Seos. I got a friend of mine who used to work at Brafton, which was a big agency. He's a senior role there. He's just travelling the world. He was in South Africa last time I talked to him. Now he's in India. And guess what? That creates all these little connection points because he's talking to locals, he's beating up people at the coffee shop. And COVID has helped as that talent kind of expands its wings and goes into all these cities and markets and I hope it continues because that's how knowledge and experience transfers and that is the beauty.

And as you were talking earlier about freelancers, if you want that sort of lifestyle, if you want to experience the different cultures and actually learn different skills along the way, not just SEO skills, then this is a great time to be in the place.

Absolutely, 100%.

So we've been talking a lot about SEO. Let's move the conversation a bit more into learning and development. So how important is learning and development for SEO professionals?

There's this notion in the SEO space, right? I'm sure you've heard it tasman and probably many of our listeners, you don't learn SEO in college or university or any of these institutions of education. That is changing a little bit. We recently partnered with a few University of California institutions and have helped and encouraged SEO to be part of their digital marketing and marketing functions and departments. But the reality is that we're still not there yet. SEO isn't like you're going to go to college or university and get like an accounting degree and you're going to have all these real strict accounting practises and processes that you're going to get trained in. It doesn't exactly replicate that way. One of my favourite quotes is that you can ask ten Seos a question and you're going to get 15 different responses, which I haven't had. That sometimes very true, right. And I think that's part of the challenge, right? Because SEO isn't uniform. It's not like gap accounting where every company can follow this process. It's like, yeah, I want to do tech SEO, but you might do tech SEO differently because you have a totally different tech stack and you're using a CMS. And then over here we've got a homegrown in house tech stack. It's not uniform. The Practises and the principles are pretty much the same, but the application is very different. So this leads us to where we need to be in our world, in the SEO world, which is we need to really think deep about training, development and coaching. Our industry is one where the skill set has to be constantly developed and expanded. Very similar to how a teacher every year has to go and get recertified and continue learning and continue developing their skill sets. Very similar to how a Mason or a welder has to go and get a certification and go through an apprenticeship to really get the hours in to know how to do something very well. And I think that that is where our training and development needs to go, is taking kind of these principles that exist in these other old school industries and many accounts and apply them to SEO so that when someone is new to the industry. They can come into this certification process, be certified and then have this apprenticeship and feel like they're being brought along a journey, not just thrown into some sort of fire pit of a startup and said, hey, grow my SEO. That's a terrifying scenario, especially if you don't have experience and knowledge and and the capabilities to execute the work. So bringing those types of Practises into our industry and creating those opportunities, I think, is really where this training, development and coaching is going to go for the SEO industry.

So how well is that being implemented, in your opinion?

You have to ask the hard ones, don't you? Not really. Well.

I'm going to ask it even harder.

And maybe the reason I say that is because I have to look at myself because this is something that we believe strongly at previsible and I believe strongly personally. It's part of my DNA that we have to be doing this training, developing and coaching. And I don't think we and myself are doing a great job. We're trying really hard, but I think that it's far from being at a place where it's universally accepted, for starters, and it is not structured well enough to be able to have a conversation with all the different types. Of Seos to help them understand that depending on where you are in your career journey, there are different tools or resources available to you. If you've been doing SEO for ten years and you worked at big companies like Adidas or this or that, great. Maybe what you need is coaching. Maybe you need to learn how to unblock yourself or how to train or develop your talent, or how to better present to your leadership team. And these are coaching practises. If you're just getting started off at an agency and it's your first SEO job, there has to be a place where we can encourage that certification and that apprenticeship and that growth journey for somebody, but there's no standardisation, which is what the challenge is. So we're really far off, but I'm very encouraged by the energy that is around this right now. I'm seeing so many people develop content, I'm seeing so much content being published around training. I just really hope that we can get to a place where we can organise this in a way that helps someone grow and develop and helps organisations pull the right playbook or the right resource at the right time, because I.

Don't think we'd get to a place where it was compulsory. But, for example, with coaching, you've got the ICF and there are practices and ways that you coach and ethics behind it. And if you're serious about it, as I was, you invest your time and energy and your money in accreditation and what that gives you is an awareness of the really important stuff. Yes, you will have your own style, you'll have your own niche, but those ethics and principles are so important.

That's a great point. Yeah. A lot of other industries are way ahead of us on this. Right. And I think we got some room to grow there.

So what would you say were essential skills and qualifications to succeed in the SEO market.

For, you know, for me, there were a couple of really great learning opportunities that I that I experienced. And the first one right off the bat was that Spanish bookstore I mentioned earlier. Learning by making my own mistakes on my own business helped me a lot. I'm not saying that that's the path for everybody. And I'm very careful nowadays, especially when I talk to HR and other recruiters who are trying to hire talent. That's become a real characteristic that those recruiters are looking for in Seos. And I caution them, because not everybody has to come from a background of build it yourself to learn. And there are other ways to acquire these skills without building your own website or developing your own online business or so forth or so on. But that definitely, for me personally, was a key ingredient in my development journey. The second one was I had an amazing boss at ebay. His name was Robert Chawani, and he was one of the first Seos at Ebay. But by no stretch of imagination did he consider himself an SEO expert. But he taught me almost everything I know today about how to manage teams, how to manage relationships with key stakeholders like product and engineering. And I made my fair share of mistakes. I remember one time I got into a meeting with a director of product, and I literally pounded my fists on the table and said, this is the dumbest idea ever, and you're an idiot, and really got heated. And Robert gave me a day to cool off, and pulled me aside the next day and said, hey, that wasn't the right approach. That didn't build your character and isn't your character, and it certainly didn't build up that partner. And lastly, it didn't build up the company, and there's a lot more to that conversation, but that was a real learning experience and many, many more that Robert gave me over my career. And having that was those coaching moments that I needed to grow. And again, we're now at a place of inflection in our industry where those coaching moments might not happen with your direct boss like they did for me. I'm very fortunate, and I'm grateful for that. But they can happen through all these industry experts who've gone through those trials. They can help coach, they can help mentor and find those mentors and find those coaches and never stop seeking them if you haven't found them. That's I think one of the things that's really challenging in the SEO space is people. They say, oh, I've been looking for a great mentor, and I just can't find somebody. It's a journey, and you got to keep seeking that out. So that would be the second one. And then the third one for me in terms of my development was this amazing opportunity to transition from just being an operator and tactician and just a thought leader in the space to being an executive and managing a company and being responsible for the entire pnl. Responsible for the livelihood and the salaries and the growth and the key decisions of a company. And fortunately for me, because I was at Search Metrics, I was able to do that in the SEO space. That would be my third great learning experience in my career.

So I agree with you on coaching. I, as a coach, can't now imagine any time when I wouldn't have a coach, because if I'm always striving to improve, then that relationship is critical, may not always be the same. So I ended with a business coach. I've moved more onto an accountability coach at the moment, because that's what's important for me. But otherwise, nobody forces you. But who's going to put a structure in place where you are consistently reflecting, looking at where you're heading, making sure it's the right direction, making sure that you're performing the right tactics to get you to that place, dealing with the fear, because running your own business, I'm scared most of the time. Most of my days are scary days.

Same here. We're in the same boat.

So I think the SEO industry is a way off understanding the role that a coach can play in their developments.

Yeah, and maybe sharing some similar personal stories. For me, I've also transitioned my business coach. I transitioned away from amazing business coach who helped me through some of the hardest times in my career and some of the most challenging things that I ever faced as a professional. And I worked with him for better part of five years, a good chunk of my journey as a CEO at Searchmetrics, and then building up this new company. And he helped me tremendously. But I knew that there was a big transition that I needed to make personally, which was the focus on my family. And I transitioned from this weekly ritual, we can call it, of this training and development with this one coach, to seeking new types of resources. And just a month ago, my wife and I started working with a parenting coach to help with our youngest. We have three lovely kids, and I've got this partner in crime, my wife, who we're trying our best. And we needed that transition. I and we as a group needed to really change the way we were thinking about our daily routine. And I think that this is another part about coaching, is that sometimes the personal pieces and the professional pieces, these aren't two isolated worlds that just live in their own vacuums. They're all connected. If you wake up every day and you're excited about work, and then you go home and. You're drained and you're not happy to be there, it doesn't help, and it isn't going to make you happier as a person just because you're happy at work and vice versa. So we made that change, and that's been a new part of my journey in coaching.

That sounds great, and I agree with you. It's not about work and home and family. It's about the individual. And at the end of the day, your boss was telling your ebay boss was saying that it didn't improve your character. To me, everything is a goal. Every challenge is there to make me refine my character more and more. Whether it's a challenge in the home environment, the work environment, the community environment, that's how I look at it. If I'm stuck on something or if I'm cross about something, I take a step back and say, okay, what am I supposed to learn something? I'm not learning something. And I know that if I don't learn it, it's just going to stay in my life. Let's just get rid of this challenge quickly, do the learning, and move on to the next one.

No doubt. No doubt. Love that.

So for somebody listening to this conversation, and you talked about some of the resources that individuals are creating, what are the best resources that you would recommend?

There's a couple of things that I would highly recommend. The first one is you really have to start with the basics. So if you're new to SEO or you're just getting your career started, get out there and acquire as much knowledge as you can from the trusted resources that are out there. Whether it be Google and what they're publishing, the SEO news related resources that exist in in our industry, the the core basic trainings that are out there. A lot of people have developed everything from a master class to a corsa. Get comfortable with the basics and feel like you're at a point where the basics become part of your story. And I think that's really important. And that's what I tell a lot of young new seos, is you haven't acquired the basics until it's part of how you're articulating your story or your message, or your request to partner x or whoever it is, when that becomes really natural, you've gotten the basics. Now it's part of who you are and you're developing those skills. I think the next set of resources that is really valuable out there in our industry right now, today, is there's never been an opportunity like right now to have conversations about SEO with all facets of the business. And I encourage this from everyone on my team. It could be a sales guy on my team. It could be an SEO, technical SEO on my team. Go have conversations with people who aren't doing the SEO work. Go talk to your accounting partner. I'm sure they don't know much about SEO, but when having those conversations sharpen your skills, they sharpen your ability to really articulate and know what you're doing every day, and then also get their vantage point. The more vantage points, the more viewpoints that you get about SEO, the more talented you're going to become as an SEO. And so I think that's the second thing, is I encourage everybody, go have conversations with people who aren't directly involved or part of the SEO initiative or programme in your organisation. And then the last thing is, go find those mentors. It could be a coach. There's many of them out there. It could be a person in your organisation, a leader in your organisation, and think really deeply about why you want that mentorship. And this is the piece, right, that's really important. Mentorship isn't just about the connection with the person that is part of the ingredient, but it's also about what am I receiving and giving in that relationship? And I think we share both our personal journeys here with coaches. Those change over time, those develop over time. Having that moment of reflection to say, this is what I'm looking for, and then going and seeking it is the third thing that I would highly recommend Seos out there to do.

Our conversations have gone all over the place. If you were to leave our listeners with one thought, what would you like to leave them with?

So, phenomenal question Tazmin and I want to leave our listeners with the encouragement that there's no failure, there's no mistake, there's no misstep that prevents you from controlling your journey. And if my own personal career is an example of that, when I was at Ebay, we got hit with one of the biggest publicly announced Google penalties in the history of Google's evolution. We were losing $100 million a month. And I had to talk to the CEO and prep him for board meetings and meetings with Larry and Sergey at Google about what happened. I slept at Ebay. That's how serious this was. And so I want folks to recognise that there is no failure that prevents you from owning your journey and owning your growth and owning your joy. Just take that and own that piece because it'll make you a much more fulfilled person, not just as an SEO, but as a professional and as an individual.

The resilience that that would then build will carry you far. This has been a great conversation. If people want to reach out to you because we've come to the end of our chat today, where is it best to find you?

Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. Jordan Koene. K-O-E-N-E. You can also email me jordan@previsible.io. I'm happy to answer any questions or have a conversation.

And I thoroughly recommend it because it's been a fun conversation for me. Definitely.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Jordan. And thank you to everyone listening for another episode of the SEO Mindset podcast. As I reminded everyone, at the beginning. If you're enjoying the podcast and our episodes and would like to support Sarah and myself, then there is a link to the Buy Me A Coffee page and the URL is in the show notes. And also, it would be really great if you could subscribe to the podcast. You can do that by again going to theseomindset.co.uk/listen and then you will never miss out on any of our episodes. So thank you again, Jordan.

You're very welcome.