What does it really mean for Christians to be different? Is holiness a barrier to evangelism—or is it one of the greatest tools God uses to draw people to Himself?

In this episode of Gospel Talks, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave explore the biblical call to live as "sojourners and exiles" (1 Peter 2:11-12). They discuss why genuine Christlikeness—not legalism or trying to be "weird"—is what makes the gospel compelling. Together they examine the difference between outward behavior modification and inward heart transformation, how believers can engage culture without compromising biblical convictions, and why holiness is essential for effective relational evangelism.

You'll also hear practical warnings about the subtle ways Christians blend into culture through entertainment, alcohol, immorality, and unchecked attitudes, along with encouragement to let Christ live His life through us.

If you've ever wondered how to faithfully reach unbelievers without becoming like the world, this conversation is for you—and it's only Part 1.

I don't know if you're like me and sometimes you've thought,

when I'm an evangelist or evangelizing,

it's almost better to be cool than holy.

And yet Christians are called to be different,

which is not to mean Christians are called to be weird,

but we are called to be holy in a w in this world,

be in the world, not of the world.

And sometimes I've wondered, is that a good thing for evangelism or is that

a bad thing for evangelism?

Are we to be holy when we're evangelizing?

We don't often put those ideas together,

but should they be together? And if you've wondered about any of this,

how are you supposed to act around an unbeliever?

Should you do what they do to win them?

Then this episode is for you. And I am so looking forward to it.

Welcome

everybody to Gospel Talks Podcast,

where we help Christians all over the world become more effective

in relational evangelism and discipleship.

My name is George Binocca and I am your co host and with me today is Jeff Musgrave.

He is the author, the founder,

and the leader of the Exchange and all its ministries and books.

And so so glad to have him on.

Jeff, how you doing, man?

Doing good. Good good to talk to you,

George.

Good to talk to you too.

it's it's raining here and the the heat kind of broke because of the rain,

but we're getting a lot of rain right now and ~ and so we're we're thankful

for that. But we're not thankful for the humidity that combines with

a hundred and five degree heat.

That is a a brutal formula.

Yeah. We actually probably got your heat wave.

It's it's I'm in Denver and it's ~ it's quite warm here,

but we're you're sending us your rain.

I think we're supposed to get it towards the weekend and next week,

so

Good, good. Enjoy.

We need

it badly. We've had you probably heard we have had horrendous fires.

Really.

yeah, just it seem it almost feels like half the state's on fire,

but yeah, we've had really bad fires.

So we're we're glad for some rain.

Yeah, I think there's a ton of fires in the southwest,

which is not good. Not good. ~ so we need to be praying for folks.

We we have some friends who've evacuated because of fires and floods

and things like that. well, I'll jump right in with you.

I think this is such an important topic.

we're gonna be titling it, Dare to be different,

so you can make a difference. This call to be different as a Christian,

in your opinion.

What's that all about?

You know, when I was a kid, I learned a song,

this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine.

And and really what that song was talking about was what Jesus said when he says,

You are the light of the world.

And then it goes on and tells us,

let your light shine before others so that they see your good works

and give glory to your Father which is in heaven.

So that I

Being different is nothing more than and really nothing less than demonstrating

to the world who Jesus is as he lives his life through us.

That's that's the picture that Jesus is giving to us when he calls us

the light of the world.

Mm, mm, I love that. I think that is an important truth that holiness

is not God's holiness is not contaminated by sin,

and that holiness is actually an an offensive tool ~ where it can take

us on the offense and and and holiness is not just about building fences

or barriers. It is the thing that enables us to go into the world.

And so I I love that song we all sing.

as kids. So ~ so anything else to help us understand that concept

of this little light of mine.

Well, Peter and the passage we're gonna really focus on today ~ is

in first Peter chapter two, if anyone wants to look at it,

it's verses eleven and twelve.

And Peter kind of refers back to these things in in he doesn't use the word light,

but as I read it, I think you'll be able to see ~ why I referred to that.

beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles.

To abstain from the passions of the flesh which wage war against your soul,

keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable,

so that when they speak against you as evildoers,

they may see your good works or good deeds,

excuse me, and glorify God on the day of visitation.

And so the idea here is that as we live differently,

we can demonstrate to others the real glory of God and help them to see.

the source and the reason for our difference.

So then how are we supposed to act as followers of Christ?

I mean, especially around non-believers.

I guess no, that's a bad question.

How we supposed to act, period?

And and I think I should probably tell everybody the idea for this particular

~ episode ~ came from a Alistair Begg devotional.

And he every day he sends out a devotional.

And on July 5th, he ~ asked that specific questions.

I mean, literally he started his devotional with how are Jesus followers supposed

to act?

And he went on to say it's a vital question,

and the answer is both simple and challenging.

We are called to be different,

different from those who don't follow Jesus.

And ~ I I should warn everybody,

George, I we plan to talk about this in a deductive manner.

In other words, what we're gonna do is we're gonna start with the premise

and we're gonna purposely attempt to prove the validity of the premise as we

as we w talk.

about it. But I I feel like inductive study of scripture is far more profitable

to us. And so I urge every single person who's listening to actively pursue this

topic inductively as they study through the entirety of Scripture.

So maybe just let it for the next year kind of be a background question that

I'm asking myself. How are

Followers of Jesus supposed to live.

Here's where we're going to start and ultimately finish.

And this also is an Alistair Begg quote.

In fact, this is the quote that really stirred my heart to say,

hey, I want to talk about this.

He says, Will I love this world enough to be quite unlike this world that I might

Point

the people of this world towards a better one.

And I I just feel like he really stated that,

well, we have to be different from this world because our lives belong

in and are aiming toward another world.

We want to be able to live in such a way that we influence other people

to go with us.

Hm. I love that. ~ going back to your quote of Peter,

~ from from from the apostles book there in the New Testament,

he

Yeah.

he describes Christians as sojourners and exiles in that passage I notice.

What does it mean to what does it actually mean to live like a foreigner

in your own culture? And this is such an important question for us as Christians.

It it impacts me as a pastor, the answer to this question.

in and it impacts your church,

those of you that are listening.

But what what does that actually mean biblically?

You know, I love the phrase living life on mission.

In other words, we're we're focusing our living on the mission God sent us to.

He sent us to invite other people to go to heaven with us.

And when I have been on mission trips,

you lived on a mission trip when you started a church in Nairobi.

so whenever you're in a ~

Foreign culture. everything around you is different.

And it reminds you constantly that you're there for a purpose.

And I I love, I actually feel like mission trips are a little easier

to live on mission because I'm constantly being reminded by the feel of the air,

by the smell of the air, by the way people are dressing,

talking, acting.

And I actually think that what God wants us to do is recognize we

our citizenship is in heaven. And if

Mm.

we would compare the world we're going to live in to the world we currently live in,

we would recognize a drastic difference.

And those differences are supposed to be making us feel uncomfortable here.

I I read in Second Corinthians chapter five,

the first ten verses, and I recognize that God tells us that we're literally

moaning, groaning in this world.

~ when when I get my aches and pangs of of ~ growing a little older,

I it it reminds me of of that verse.

God didn't make me for this world,

he made me for another world. And my home is

Is in heaven. That's the real citizenship that I have.

And everything in this world that is not like that world ought to make

me homesick for that world. And that homesickness ought to drive

me to recognize there are a lot of people here that don't know about there.

There's a lot of people on this world that don't know about heaven,

that don't know about Jesus. And those differences ought to be driving me.

And so as I live differently.

Because I'm a citizen of a different world,

then I think it gives me opportunity to talk.

Hmm. So when people hear the phrase Christians should be different,

I think they're tempted to think of a lot of things.

they're tempted to sometimes where the Bible says be different,

they're tempted to r read weird.

Sometimes where the Bible says different,

they're tempted to think of a r list of rules.

Is that what Peter is talking about in the context is a list of rules,

morality? What do you believe he's saying right there?

Yeah, ca I'm I'm gonna actually look up a a Bible verse here because Peter used

in the passage a verse ~ just in verse nine.

So we quoted verses ~ eleven and twelve.

Verse nine says, But you are a chosen race,

a royal priesthood, a holy nation,

a people.

For his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies

of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

So that's really the picture of what you and I are are talking about when we're

trying to help people recognize that God wants us to live a different kind of life.

so you asked the question.

what are we supposed to be thinking when we hear the word ~ Christian should

be different? And this is another quote from Alistair Begg that I thought

was very helpful. It's as if God is saying,

You're my people, you belong to me.

I want you to delight in being set apart.

In other words, my being set apart is not I'm weird.

My my being set apart is that God chose me as his own.

I'm part of his bride. And and that is a beautiful,

delightful place to be. And God wants me to delight in that.

Hmm. I love that. That's you know,

I I wish for every Christian believer listening to this,

they would just grab on to that statement that it's a delight and not a punishment.

And some people feel like it's a punishment that they've been called

to be different, and they they kind of kick against the pricks,

so to speak. and I and I just,

you know, I I myself need to do better on seeing it that way as a delight.

So

Then in in your opinion, what's the difference between behavioral modification,

which is disingenuine to an extent,

and genuine heart transformation?

Because we don't want to come across as we're faking it till we We're faking

it till they make it to the to the kingdom,

you know? And then after that it's like,

hey, like we're actually we we do this stuff too.

But no, like there has to be some genuine heart transformation.

I mean, we we we

either really believe this stuff or we don't and what's the difference there?

How do we make sure we end up genuine?

Yeah. Well, I if when I think of change,

so when I think of how I as a believer ought to behave slash change,

~ I the phrase that comes to my mind is manifesting Christ.

So that I get that phrase from ~ Second Corinthians beginning in about chapter two,

verse fourteen, where it talks about the fragrance of Christ.

We've talked about that many times.

All

the way through the end of chapter seven,

somewhere in there. And in the middle of that,

in 2 Corinthians chapter 3 and verse 18,

he uses a phrase: We all with unveiled face,

beholding the glory of the Lord,

are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another,

for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

And so this is talking about real genuine transformation in the Christian's life.

And notice the tense here. We are being transformed.

So that it's it's that's a passive.

That's not something I actually do.

It's not that I am sitting around thinking in terms of how do I transform my life?

What behavioral modifications do I need?

Notice.

The action. It says, but we all with unveiled unveiled face,

beholding the glory of the Lord.

And so our action is literally gazing on the glorious face of the Lord.

And as we focus on God, He changes us more and more to be like Him.

So it it's it's actually not about an external.

It

Mm.

it shows up in externals.

But it's about us becoming more and more like God.

Hmm. I what I love, we were talking about just before we came

on and started recording in the studio,

is that it's important the four attributes of God,

the four truths about a God that about God that are the foundation

of the gospel that we use in the exchange to be the four chapters

to present the gospel and introduce people to Jesus,

that we embody those attributes and present them.

Yeah, yeah.

And in fact, if that's really who God is,

I mean, if we're really being genuine in in introducing people to him,

that's who God is. Then

Mm.

when we focus our attention on God and He makes us more and more like Him,

then we will become more and more holy.

We will become more and more just and loving and gracious.

I mean those things

That are true about God, Hans to produce in us.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, what's so incredible about holiness is that it

is just an absolute essential part of the Christian life.

But some people feel like, you know,

holiness is just that thing for mature believers.

new believers or young believers or some believers or all the believers that aren't

pastors or deacons, you don't really have to be that holy.

We get it. You know,

i it's okay, you're just doing what everybody else does in the world.

But why is it so essential to Christianity,

this pursuit of holiness?

Yeah, well, I I I think that the probably the biggest reason is because God said to.

When and the reason he said to,

I mean he said it back in Leviticus,

he quotes it Peter quotes it in first chapter one of this same book.

and ~ he says, Be holy like God is holy.

And ~ the it it's i it Jesus said it this way,

be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

And I

I think that we kind of balk from the concept of holy because we have

to balk from the concept of whole of perfect.

I mean, we're not perfect. So how do how do we do that?

Well, I do think there's a progression.

I I think that God makes us more like Himself every single day.

But every single time we fall short of what we know God wants us to be,

the only

way we can respond to that in a in an appropriate,

proper way is to repent. I actually think the greatest attribute of

a person who's following Jesus is the humility to constantly repent.

constantly recognize that's that's not Jesus living through me.

That's my flesh. That's the way I live.

And so justice is only one attribute of God.

The the ju excuse me, I I I'm being a little dyslexic here and saying

one thing and looking at another.

holiness is not the only thing.

I mean, it it is certainly the basis,

but you know, in a world of injustice,

God wants believers to become more and more like him in regards to justice.

That when we see someone being treated unjustly,

that we become part of the of the solution there and say,

No, wait a minute, this is

It's not appropriate. This is not just.

And so believers are not just a negative force in the world of,

you know, you're not like me, so you're bad.

it is literally us showing people who God is by our desires.

We want justice for people. That the next attribute of God that we're constantly

talking about is God's love. And I'm just telling you if we want to be different,

to make a difference, learning how to love God first.

And love others like ourselves,

we'll change ourselves and it'll change the world around us.

And then all of this has to flow from God.

God is gracious. He gives us that ability.

We show graciousness by ~ giving people room to grow,

to room to change, seeing the best in them,

wanting the best for them. But I actually think it ha has to also reflect

the fact that we know it's not about us.

~

You

know, John 15, the reason that we can easily say this is not just

us putting on actions is Jesus said,

Abide in me and I in you, as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless

it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me.

So the only way you and I are ever going to be holy is to abide in Jesus.

And let him produce his holiness through us and same thing with justice

and love and grace.

So in Peter's epistle, and you you just made mention of this just a second

ago in your comments, but but even going back to that verse,

he says, We're supposed to abstain from the passions of the flesh flesh because they

wage war against our souls. But what does that look like in everyday life?

Because there's some people that are probably going,

Okay, you guys are talking up here.

Now bring it like down here and tell me what to do.

You know, what does this actually look like in real life?

Speaking of of bringing it down here,

I I just taught the children of our church in vacation bible school.

It was super fun. And we talked about the the great flood and Noah's Ark.

And

Hm.

~ one of the phrases that we used over and over and over is

sin is not safe.

Hm.

we see a sin as ~

Pursuing something that looks really yummy to eat,

you know, like this sinfully

Mm.

delicious dessert. And the fact is,

it's not safe, it's dangerous.

sin has a life of its own, and it is

Hm.

seeking to have mastery over us.

The very first time we see the mention of sin in scripture in Genesis 4,

~ verse 7, it gives us this picture of an animal crouching,

ready to pounce and destroy. Adrian Rogers.

used to say sin will take you further than you want to go,

keep you longer than you want to stay,

Yep. Yep. Yep.

and cost you more than you want to pay.

And

~ we just all need to recognize that sin is waging war against us.

It's trying to destroy us. It's trying to kill us.

The wages of sin, what we earn because of our sin is death.

And and sin is constantly encroaching upon us.

And so I I you you ask how do you s how do you

see that in in day to day life.

Well, maybe I should tell you how I see it in my life.

When I begin to see attitudes and actions come out of my brain,

out of my mouth, out of my lifestyle that I know are not the fruit of the spirit.

I know it's not gentle and patient and kind and loving and

and joyful and peaceful. I I know that's not Christ.

then I have to recognize that's not the Christ life.

That's the Jeff life. And so whether it is a sin of gross immorality

or whether it is a sin of losing your temper when it's not appropriate,

Mm.

we have to recognize that's flesh.

And that flesh is destroying me.

It's trying to destroy me. Sin

is is doing its work. And so number first,

the first part of is recognizing the flesh,

seeing it. And I think that the sooner we see it,

the the less damage it does. And then being committed to repent and return

to Jesus and let his life rule through me.

I love that. letting Christ's life live through you.

I mean, it I mean, that is the commitment that Jesus I think about the call

of Levi to Jesus, and Levi gives everything up and then invites all

his friends to come hear the same message and says,

I will follow you. And I mean,

that's really it in enough in a nutshell that I'm giving up my lifestyle

or an entitlement to a lifestyle of my own.

In saying, I will now abide by his lifestyle,

making Jesus,

Yeah, that's really good.

you know, it's so this is so helpful to us as Christians.

Now, the question, I guess, then comes in my mind is how

can Christians engage culture,

which is nothing like Jesus, because culture fell in Genesis chapter three?

How can how can and Christian culture is not all evil either?

But how can Christians engage a culture that is good and

bad without becoming absorbed?

Buy it.

Yeah. And I think the answer is love.

~ God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son and

he literally sent Jesus into a sinful world.

And he did it because of love.

And so if if we live out of a God motive of love.

~ then then it our life is going to be different.

And and remember the great commandment is to love the Lord with all of your being.

And then the second one is like it to love your neighbor as yourself.

And so frankly, when we get absorbed by the culture,

or maybe I should say it this way,

let culture cultural is absorption.

We're we're taking it in. ~ literally what we're doing is we're loving self.

We're we're we're living for self,

we're living with self in mind.

If I'm living with my neighbor in mind,

if I'm living loving God with all of my heart,

it's going to really drastically change how I connect with the world around me.

Hmm. You know, one of the things though that you often hear from people,

just to kind of play devil's advocate here,

is Jesus spent time with sinners.

it's funny, they bring that up.

That that doesn't mean Jesus sinned with sinners,

but anyway, they say Jesus spent time with sinners.

So how do we follow that Jesus Christ example without compromising

on our biblical convictions? You know,

Yeah.

d

And I think, George, the the whole thing we've been talking about,

living life on mission, ~ loving people enough to help them see Jesus.

~ so but the the question is, how do I do that?

And the answer is, I've been crucified with Jesus.

I mean, that

Mm.

that's really who I am. And ~ it's no longer I that live,

but Christ who lives in me, Galatians two twenty.

And so how do I do that? I do it by letting Jesus live his life through me.

it it's his work that is happening in the world.

He wants to do that work, but he wants to do it through a spirit-filled believer.

That is such a gospel-centered answer.

Notice to those of you in the audience,

I was kinda I'm kind of been waiting to see if there's like a tinge

of legalism anywhere in all of this,

and there's not any legalism. I mean,

it's but when you put it that way,

it's so freeing to live that way because now I'm not living that way by obligation,

but I am living that way.

To glorify God because I'm choosing it.

~ now I guess we're talking really practical here.

Where do you think, in your opinion,

Christians today are most tempted to blend into the culture rather than stand apart

from it?

Yeah. I d this this is this question is probably the most difficult

of them because this is getting to the place where we have to look

at the specific dangers. So sin is dangerous.

So what are the specific dangers that tend to and I I only say I'm gonna name four,

and I'm only naming four because I watch the world the Christian world around me,

and it and it seems to me these are the areas where people are are struggling.

entertainment.

when we l forget to live life on mission and want to let my mission

be ~ the enjoyment of this world,

~ th then we're we're gonna slip into enjoying things that

God never intended us to enjoy.

And so

Mm.

I'm not saying entertainment is wrong and bad.

I I actually think that

there are some wonderful things that can be genuinely helpful to us.

But I believe that if you watch the the influence of,

or maybe s should I say, on the church,

we can

Mm.

often see the the source of it in modern entertainment.

Hmm. that I I totally agree on that one.

And it it is really becoming harder and harder to find entertainment that

is not compromising. And I'm really not one of those super conservative,

never go to the movie theater types of guys.

But I mean, just honestly, it's it's hard for a guy to watch more mo most movies

and not lust.

I mean to put it that way practically.

So okay, so that's that's area number one.

~ area number two.

Well, I I only say this one because I think a lot of the other ones flow out of it.

And I'm alcohol. I have just seen more and more fallen pastors recently

in which alcohol played a huge part in the degradation of that life.

and I I just feel like this is a world in which alcohol

is a part of their entertainment.

It's a part of what they do to enjoy themselves.

And it's dangerous and that we have to constantly be careful of

of the influence that it can have on our own lives.

Yeah, yeah. Be not drunk in wine with wine,

where it is success. okay, area number three.

Following that one, the the people that I've seen falling into

the sinfulness of this world, alcohol is a path,

immorality is this is the destination.

And ~ I I just feel like we have to recognize that God called us to moral purity,

and and that entails all different parts of life,

not just the the actions. I mean,

Jesus made it clear in the

Sermon on the Mount, that moral purity begins in our own heart,

in our own mind, before it does anywhere else.

And so whether it is in ~ what what we choose to allow ourselves to see,

what we choose to allow ourselves to think,

what we choose to allow ourselves to wear,

I mean, all of those things fall under the category of morality.

Yes, yes, and that and this is not an old fashioned thing.

This is a Bible thing. ~ like Jeff was saying earlier,

sin is not safe. Immorality will never be safe for a Christian.

That's that's excellent. Number four.

So I this one like is a huge catch everything category.

And ~ I I I just have attitudes.

and the reason I say this is because there are all different kinds

of attitudes we can have. We can have attitudes of greed,

we can have attitudes of lust,

we can have attitudes of bitterness,

edginess. and all of I mean I don't know about you,

but I when I'm standing in line and someone

crowds in front of me. I I find

Mm.

myself being like everybody else in the line and wanting to fight.

And and

yeah.

what I have to do is not behave like everybody else does.

I have to think in terms of how would Jesus respond in this moment

and so constantly be I I kind of find with my own self the the entry point

of sinful life.

Is my attitudes. And

Mm.

I that if I can watch my attitudes,

I can catch these other things before they get into a sinful pattern.

Mm, I love that. ~ attitude makes a big difference in almost everything.

Yeah, it really does. And I think the key to all of this is remembering we're here

to live life on mission. So we're not here to enjoy the comforts of this world.

Jesus is not gonna look at us at when we get to heaven and say,

Hey, did you have a good time down there?

He he's not gonna say, Hey, did you enjoy that movie?

You know, ~ we're not here to entertain ourselves.

We're here on mission.

Well, there's about nine more questions I'd love to ask you,

but we're about perfectly halfway through our outline.

I think we just need a part two.

~ and just to come back next week and do a part two together.

but this has been such a refreshing conversation and I hope those

of you listening are as elated as I am that we can do this and it's

not about externalities, it's not about

holier than thou. It's not about legalism.

It is really all done from from a heart for the gospel and and letting Jesus Christ

live through us. And I mean, there have been some golden nuggets today that

I just hope we all can grab onto and carry with us the rest of the

way in our journey with Christ.

Well

me

read that question one more time.

This is from Alistair

Yeah.

Begg, and he says, Will I love this world enough to be quite unlike this world that

I might point the people of this world towards a better one?

I I love that question. It's a nice way for us to kind of leave this subject.

Amen. Well, pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that

he would send forth laborers. We don't have a harvest problem.

We have a labor shortage. And I pray we would just get to do the hard work

of the kingdom and keep our nose to the grindstone spiritually.

we love you guys. Thank you for listening.

If you feel like this podcast would be beneficial to somebody else,

a brother or sister in Christ,

a family member.

Please share it with them. If you subscribe to the podcast,

it really helps us. Helps us find more people that need this.

And ~ we look forward to seeing you guys next week.

Lord bless.