Shownotes
We start off by asking Jeremy Appel what the last three weeks have been like for him both as a journalist and a Jewish person demanding a Free Palestine.
He also shares his thoughts on the state of global reporting in Canadian media, and the political implications of leaders so out of step with everyone else.
Does he think the tide is turning on the narratives around the occupation? What does he see his role as?
All of our content is free - made possible by the generous sponsorships of our Patrons. If you would like to support us: Patreon
Resources:
Transcripts
There is so much out there to get mad about. Social injustices, class warfare, continued
Speaker:colonization, the act of destruction of our planet by those focused on profits and not
Speaker:people. We can find it overwhelming at times. The good news is there are equally as many,
Speaker:if not more, stories of people coming together and rising up against the forces at play. So
Speaker:the creators of Blueprints of Disruption have added a new weekly segment, Ravel Rants, where
Speaker:we will unpack the stories that have us most riled up, share calls to action, and most importantly,
Speaker:celebrate resistance. All right, Jeremy, I don't think there's an audience member that doesn't
Speaker:know who you are. You've been on the show before, but just in case, can you introduce yourself,
Speaker:please? My name is Jeremy Appel. I am an independent Edmonton based journalist and podcaster and
Speaker:a forthcoming author. I should probably plug that because I think that's a difference between
Speaker:last time I was on. I've booked about Jason Kenney coming out in February. You should read
Speaker:it when it's out and pre-order it now. You can do that on the publisher Dundurn's website.
Speaker:There's a shop, you go the page of the book and there's a shop local tab and you hit it
Speaker:and you put in your postal code and it shows you an independent bookstore nearby that you
Speaker:can preorder it from. I should probably save that for the end, but. Don't worry about it.
Speaker:I mean, let's talk. I've seen you accused of promoting Jason Kenny. So just to be clear,
Speaker:it's not a, I don't imagine you spend a whole lot of time praising. Jason Kenney in there,
Speaker:you're going to scare the audience. No, there is very little praise in that book. But yeah,
Speaker:I mean, I don't know. I think my editor did a good job sort of toning it down at certain
Speaker:at certain points. So it's not just like an outright hit job, I guess you could say. But
Speaker:obviously, if you like Jason Kenney or if you're to the right of him, you're probably going
Speaker:to hate it. It comes out on February 6. We'll link people to it in the. The show notes. Yeah,
Speaker:which is a long time from now. But yeah, no, the book publishing world is weird. I think
Speaker:it's just because publishers like juggling like hundreds of like different titles at any given
Speaker:time. So they need time to like work on all of them. Also, you don't want to like compete
Speaker:with the release of Britney Spears' next memoir or anything like that, right? You got to space
Speaker:that shit out. But we'll call you back on the show for sure to get the more unhinged version.
Speaker:Whatever fell to the cutting room floor you can bring and share with us. Yeah, a couple
Speaker:of pages of speculation about his personal life. I'm sure it's juicy. Yeah. Well, I cut it.
Speaker:Anyways, it doesn't matter. Well, we'll talk about it. We'll cross that bridge when we get
Speaker:there. We do. We got a bit off topic because although you talk about a lot of interesting
Speaker:things, I reached out to you to talk about something a lot more serious. And that is really what
Speaker:it's been like for you, for Jeremy, as an independent journalist, I feel like that tag was important
Speaker:to make at the beginning because people are right frustrated right now with what they're
Speaker:reading. And I see you out there constantly kind of combating the propaganda machine and
Speaker:the disinformation. And I wanted to call you in to get your take on all that and on what
Speaker:Canadian politics, how that's gonna play into it, but also to check in with you to see how
Speaker:you're dealing. You've got a unique position, both as a Jewish person and a journalist. And
Speaker:those are, it's difficult times for both right now, is it not? Mm hmm. Yeah. Thank you for
Speaker:checking in on your Jewish friend as, you know, all the celebs are saying you should do. But
Speaker:no, it has been, you know, I would be lying if I said that it wasn't a very emotionally
Speaker:exhausting time for myself. I don't think that's anything compared to what, you know, Palestinian
Speaker:and Arab and Muslim people are going through now. But I mean, still it has been very distressing.
Speaker:I mean, first with the attacks on October 7th, as someone who has been my entire adult life,
Speaker:a critic of the state of Israel and supporter of Palestinian human rights, it was really
Speaker:hard to I guess reconcile that with the sheer horror of the Hamas attacks on Israel on October
Speaker:7th. And of course, we still don't have an entirely clear picture of what happened. But either
Speaker:way, a lot of Israelis were killed, right? More than on any other day.
Speaker:on the day since the Holocaust. It's like gross emotional manipulation, but it's also technically
Speaker:true, right? And so that, you know, did I, I mean, I have family in Israel. I like them,
Speaker:I care about them. I don't agree with their, you know, political views, but, you know, I
Speaker:certainly don't wish them harm. And, you know, good friend of my parents had a niece who was
Speaker:killed. And so there's that, but ever, but everyone knew what was going to come next. Right. In
Speaker:response to the attacks. Yeah. And of course the attacks weren't, they didn't just come
Speaker:out of nowhere. They were in response to decades of apartheid and ethnic cleansing and, you
Speaker:know, siege on Gaza. And but you know, again, the Israel only has one strategy for dealing
Speaker:with the Palestinians, and that's using.
Speaker:group force to respond to any acts of violence against Israeli civilians, to do at least 10
Speaker:times worse to them what was done to us, quote unquote. As that week after went on in the
Speaker:body count of Palestinians starting to exceed Israelis, it was like, okay. like October 7th
Speaker:is, you know, it pills in comparison to what we're seeing in Gaza now. And, you know, because
Speaker:I, you know, I know a lot of pro-Israel people from my youth who I, you know, follow on Instagram.
Speaker:You know, a few of them I'm still friends with, you know, so we go way back and like well-intentioned
Speaker:people, they just think in a certain box. They've been taught to think in where it's like us
Speaker:against the world and Israel is just an extension of the Jewish people. And that's been really
Speaker:distressing for me to see, to see people I know from when I was a kid just outright calling
Speaker:for genocide, frankly. Yeah, that's been tough. And just also seeing them say, Oh, well, if
Speaker:you didn't have anything to say about October 7, then why are you criticizing Israel? And
Speaker:it's like people have lots of things to say about October 7. You know, and I certainly
Speaker:don't expect Palestinian people to immediately rush to denounce it when I mean what Hamas
Speaker:did on October 7th is what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for decades. Like even
Speaker:the most grisliest, unconfirmed details like cutting a pregnant woman open and pulling the
Speaker:fetus out and then killing them. I mean, that is what Israel oversaw in the, you know, Sabrash
Speaker:Tila massacre in 1982, the who massacred almost 2000 Palestinians in like two days while the
Speaker:Israelis stood guard, did that. Right. Talk about mass rapes. I mean,
Speaker:that, you know, and you read accounts of the Nakba. I mean, the Israelis did all these things,
Speaker:you know, putting babies in ovens, which again, appears to not have actually happened, which
Speaker:I mean, it sounded really fake when I heard about it. But because then of course, all the
Speaker:I'll design this propagandists were like, oh my god, this is literally the Holocaust. And
Speaker:I mean, if if, you know, Palestinians breaking over their concentration camp in Gaza and committing
Speaker:these atrocities is the Holocaust, then what what do you call what Israel is doing in Gaza,
Speaker:right? And again, it's this mentality that frames us perpetually as us as in Jewish people as
Speaker:victims who are only ever responding to like external threats. And it makes it hard to have
Speaker:any sort of compassion. towards those we commit violence against. I feel like a lot of people,
Speaker:your average people, understand the hypocrisy that's at play. But the narratives that you're
Speaker:talking about, everyone talks about how the battle's going, right? We like to encourage
Speaker:ourselves and say, you know, we're winning this narrative, people are listening, you know,
Speaker:they're understanding the reality. But sometimes that's hard to see when... like really top-down
Speaker:messaging is coming out that includes these like unverified claims you're talking about,
Speaker:people that refuse to take them down, some notable, you know, media heads. We won't note them though,
Speaker:but how does that perpetuate in such a level that we're seeing right now, even when folks
Speaker:can see that they're using unreliable sources, that they are... You know the whole Biden thing
Speaker:where he gets in front of his people and says he looked at photographs of beheaded babies
Speaker:and Walks it back a couple days later But yet people are still coming at us with the Secretary
Speaker:of State Blink in his words as though their bond right as though there's some sort of Yeah,
Speaker:the Secretary of State United States, why would he lie? It's just like, yeah, no secretary
Speaker:of state has ever lied. No. Yeah. But like, no, you should know better are throwing this
Speaker:guy's quotes at me as evidence, as receipts of something. And I am just my mind just explodes.
Speaker:I'm going, where did you come from? What happened to you? But just to be clear, actually, it
Speaker:wasn't. a couple days later that the White House walked back Biden saying that he saw pictures
Speaker:of the headed babies. It was immediately after the press conference when reporters reached
Speaker:out to the White House to be like, did he actually saw pictures? And they were like, no, he didn't.
Speaker:He read about it in media Netanyahu told him. And yeah, I mean, there's a I've never seen
Speaker:a greater gap between what actual people think. And what our government is saying. And I mean,
Speaker:the NDP, because of pressure, have gotten to a good position on this, I think, a reasonable
Speaker:position. You know, I really had to swallow a pill there to nod along with you. They have,
Speaker:they have, but it's just a letter. I'm still not satisfied, but. And they're not in, they're
Speaker:not in, they're not in, I mean, they're propping up liberal government, but they're not gonna
Speaker:make the government fall over this. So yeah, I mean, but I mean, when you look at states,
Speaker:I mean, Bernie Sanders will not say the word ceasefire. He can't do it. I mean, that is
Speaker:so distressing. And I mean, you have like 10 people in Congress, literally 10 people out
Speaker:of nearly 500 who are being reasonable. It can be really discouraging in seeing how the media
Speaker:often frames this conflict, whereas it started on October 7th, right? Only it starts whenever
Speaker:Israel's attacked, right? But what happens before that, what leads up to the attack context doesn't
Speaker:matter, right? And so obviously that framing is problematic, but you are seeing sort of,
Speaker:I think, punctures in that narrative. You're seeing a lot more. not enough. And I know there
Speaker:are many stories of Palestinian experts having their interviews canceled and all sorts of
Speaker:injustices on that level. But there are, I think, more Palestinian voices being included in media
Speaker:narratives. And because you saw, I remember in 2021, there like the amount of support for
Speaker:Palestine right coming a year after like George Floyd in this sort of really mainstreaming
Speaker:of Black Lives Matter. I remember thinking wow like there's really been a shift in narrative
Speaker:this time and I think that's true this time as well like sort of building on that but of
Speaker:course because of the October 7th attacks. that I think led to this gap between what people
Speaker:in the streets are saying and how they're perceiving this and people in positions of power that
Speaker:wasn't as clear in 2021. But this effort to frame it as Israel's 9-11 I mean, that works
Speaker:on some people, but a lot of people, it's like, yeah, and they're responding to it. Like the
Speaker:US responded to 9-11, which we can all see now wasn't the appropriate response. And I remember
Speaker:I was arguing with this Israeli, like quasi-Israeli government propagandist, like he works for
Speaker:some like think tank that's like funded by these. You know what I mean? Like he doesn't work
Speaker:for the Israeli government, but he does. And I was like, oh yeah, remind me what happened
Speaker:after 9-11. Like, how'd that go? And he's like, oh, remind me, what would the world be like
Speaker:if Al-Qaeda wasn't taken out? And it's like, well, I guess we wouldn't be supporting them
Speaker:in Syria, you know, there wouldn't be ISIS, you know, millions of people would be alive.
Speaker:It's like we're experiencing like this real in right in front of us, revisionist history
Speaker:happening like we're watching people shift their positions from like 10 years ago. They just
Speaker:right in front of us, real, real blatant, like as though it's not actually happening. And
Speaker:like you talk about like the bottom, you know, and what the masses think, what most people
Speaker:think and then the people of power. But even the people in the power. people in power are
Speaker:fractured, right? Like Trudeau's out of step with a lot of his cabinet. The NDP, you know,
Speaker:should have had a clear position. Their members had kind of given them a clear position from
Speaker:the onset. They could have been on the right side, but it was really, really top decision
Speaker:makers and Biden's rumored to be completely ignoring his advisors. And I wonder if that's
Speaker:going to be disastrous for these politicians down the road as well. to hold on to dig into
Speaker:this position for so long when so many people around you are falling away from it. I can
Speaker:only imagine there's going to be blowback. And I feel like the conservatives here in Canada
Speaker:are just, you know, you've got your usual suspects pumping out the usual trash, but generally
Speaker:they're kind of laying low here as the liberals get painted as supporters of genocide. You
Speaker:got any predictions in terms of Canadian politics and- any rightful blowback that folks will
Speaker:face, like Biden in particular or Trudeau? Well, in terms of Biden, I mean, you've seen his
Speaker:poll numbers among Arab Americans have absolutely. Been decimated in rightfully so now, interesting,
Speaker:you look at that poll, it's like a lot of Arab Americans are thinking of voting for Trump
Speaker:or RFK. And I found. And in like not a lot for Cornel West, which is interesting, because
Speaker:of course, Trump is the same as Biden on this issue. Rhetorically, you know, he wouldn't
Speaker:be advocating for any sort of restraint like Biden is like claims to be, but isn't in fact.
Speaker:So I think he would be about the same in our case. Worse. I mean, you know, I mean, after
Speaker:he, you know. on Twitter praised Roger Waters and got blowback for it. He just went like
Speaker:full Likudnik. And so it's interesting. I can't believe we're still even talking about him.
Speaker:I wish he would just fade into obscurity. You know, I do think he will help Biden. Like if
Speaker:we're talking about like, obviously stealing votes isn't a thing. Like you're not entitled,
Speaker:no one's entitled to anyone's votes. But I do think people would otherwise vote for Trump
Speaker:would probably be more likely to vote for RFK than people would otherwise vote for Biden.
Speaker:But yeah, I mean, I don't know how Biden's gonna win Michigan now. I mean, there are a lot of
Speaker:Arabs and Muslims in Michigan and you know, Rashia Tlaib, of course, very popular congressperson,
Speaker:probably the only, like, it wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say she's the only good.
Speaker:I think that's what's left with down there. Yeah, no. And Cori Bush, and Cori Bush.
Speaker:You know, I mean, she's saying, yeah, I'm not going to support him. And that I think that
Speaker:carries a lot of weight among like working class people in Detroit and, of course, Arabs and
Speaker:Muslims here in Canada. It will be I don't know. I mean, because on the one hand, obviously,
Speaker:Canada doesn't have the same amount of power to put a stop to this as the United States
Speaker:does, right? We aren't directly funding the Israeli military in the same way that the United
Speaker:States is. Of course, we fund the Palestinian Authority directly, which exists to protect
Speaker:Israelis from Palestinians, in the West Bank at least. where they're nominally in power.
Speaker:And we have a free trade agreement with Israel. I mean, so we do have leverage and anyone who
Speaker:says we don't in that the US is also powerless is lying. We absolutely do have leverage over
Speaker:Israel. Are we gonna use it? No. But it will be interesting to see And, you know, Trudeau's
Speaker:been calling for a humanitarian pause for, I don't know, a week or two now, which is, I
Speaker:mean, useless. But it'll be interesting to see if the pressure on him works, right? I mean,
Speaker:you have, you know, I think a couple dozen liberal MPs calling for a ceasefire now. offices were
Speaker:occupied last week, including Randy Boisnoe here in Edmonton. And I mean, it worked with
Speaker:the NDP. I mean, after, you know, Jenny Kwan and Jagmeet Singh and Randall Garrison's offices
Speaker:were occupied, the NDP came out and were like, I mean, they already supported ceasefire, but
Speaker:they went beyond that saying, we need to cut off arms sales to Israel. We need to end the
Speaker:siege of Gaza. We write like you mentioned, like that requires a far less hard commitment
Speaker:from the NDP, right? They now just have to issue a letter, show all their signatures on social
Speaker:media. And it seems like they think their job is done. And, you know, I understand your point
Speaker:earlier about they don't hold much leverage over the liberals, although that is their marketing
Speaker:scheme, right? Like they take credit for everything the liberals do because of the influence that
Speaker:they wield. And then they cry. like that they don't have any, but I'm so disappointed in
Speaker:the MPs that exist there that are persons that can do a lot of things to show what side they're
Speaker:on. Right? They've completely lost their voice. They can occupy offices. They can help lead
Speaker:actions. There's nothing preventing them from doing this except fear of reprisal, but that's
Speaker:not stopping everybody else out here. sticking their neck out for Palestine. Right. And these
Speaker:folks have made immense connections. Many of them are guaranteed pensions and still won't
Speaker:stick their neck out at this point. And that's why, again, I'm not satisfied with that letter,
Speaker:even though they do take a really good position. It goes beyond the ceasefire. And the fact
Speaker:that we get really excited that people are calling for just a ceasefire at this point is really
Speaker:frustrating. But I know we have to get what we can get. But, you know, but yeah, I mean,
Speaker:a lot of liberal MPs are coming because they're listening to their constituents who are saying,
Speaker:you know, ceasefire is the bare minimum. Right. Because we have a ceasefire and also, you know,
Speaker:release the hostages on them. We're just back to the status quo before October 7. Right.
Speaker:And the status quo before October 7 led to October 7 and led to what we're seeing Gaza now. So
Speaker:obviously we need to go beyond that. And it is good to see the NDP say that, but are they
Speaker:going to do anything about it? Of course not. I interviewed Heather McPherson, who's actually
Speaker:my MP. And I like Heather. I don't agree with her on everything, but I think she has her
Speaker:heart in the right place. And yeah, I interviewed her on the Forgotten Corner with my cohost,
Speaker:Scott Schmidt, and we talked about Ukraine a bunch. and about Palestine. And I was like,
Speaker:when it comes to Ukraine, we're saying not only should we send weapons to Ukraine, but we need
Speaker:to send as many weapons to Ukraine as they're asking us for, right? That's her position.
Speaker:Now on Palestine, she's saying, no, we need to stop the violence, whether it's from Israel
Speaker:or the Palestinians, and we need to put pressure on Israel as a more powerful party. But, you
Speaker:know, I mean, there's a clear cognitive dis and obviously Ukraine and Palestine aren't
Speaker:the exact same. There are similarities and differences with the conflict in Ukraine. But she didn't
Speaker:she didn't really have an answer. She was like, look, we're not perfect. Like she said that
Speaker:she's like, look, we're not perfectly consistent. I get that. But we're the best you have or
Speaker:something like that, which is on the one hand is very cynical. But on the other hand, it
Speaker:was like refreshingly honest for her to be like, yeah, we're not like there, you know, that
Speaker:she didn't have a good answer. And she acknowledged that. So I think that's where a lot of the
Speaker:personal attacks come from online, where you kind of get to this point in the argument where
Speaker:there is no defending it. Right. There is no real explanation as to why not that you can
Speaker:say out loud to why Palestine would be denied the right to arm resistance. And we arm. Ukraine
Speaker:to the teeth, right? Because there really is no end to it. It has to stop there. Then it
Speaker:denigrates to calling absolutely everybody who speaks against Israel an anti-Semite, or the
Speaker:way that folks come after people like Fred Hahn and Sarah Gemma. And then when you come back
Speaker:and say, give me the quote, what upset you the most? What was the anti-Semitic line in her
Speaker:statement or an action she took? then it just degrades from there. There is no receipts or,
Speaker:you know, there is no mass protests in favor of Israel, because, I mean, those signs would
Speaker:be really hard to make. It's really hard to justify that. And so, at least she is being
Speaker:refreshingly honest rather than trying to scramble to an answer to that, because, yeah, there
Speaker:really is no answer that you could say other than colonialism, right? We support. what Israel's
Speaker:doing because that is a model that we set for them. That's a model that we have followed
Speaker:before. Palestinians don't have the right to arm resistance because that would not work
Speaker:well for us. That is not part of our history, you know, that is not something that they recognize
Speaker:as being valid. Well, I think it's important though to distinguish when we're talking about
Speaker:Palestinian right to arm resistance that it isn't absolute like a lot of what Hamas did
Speaker:on October 7th, I don't think would fall under the category of legitimate armed resistance?
Speaker:No, but nobody would dream of sending weapons to Palestine. Like if you ask Canadian Parliament,
Speaker:can we offer a $32 million package for armored tanks for Palestinians to defend themselves
Speaker:in the West Bank as settlers try to take their town? Right? Illegally, right now and all year,
Speaker:it's been on the increase, right? We would never think to allow... supplied them with anything
Speaker:to defend themselves. So not so much like justifying every horrible act that an armed extension
Speaker:of people commits, but even the idea that they could, even the idea of firing a rocket is
Speaker:so abhorrent, right? Like that is something that will erase the occupation in the discussion.
Speaker:Yeah, but they fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel. And it's like, well, I can't figure
Speaker:out what would be acceptable then. Like what only precision guided weapons only, you know,
Speaker:like it just becomes such an obvious hypocritical position that, you know, they can't say without
Speaker:saying either they're completely racist or pro-Zionist. So yeah, no, it's definitely not to condone
Speaker:any form of resistance in the same way that nobody condones the most horrible things the
Speaker:US has committed in their war, right? Even though Americans would defend the war and their troops
Speaker:and all of that, they would still acknowledge the things that had happened. the civilian
Speaker:casualties, the, what do they call it? Collateral damage is not wanted, is not something to celebrate,
Speaker:you know? So, but yeah, there's just completely different standards when we come into this
Speaker:discussion. I wanna shift a little bit to your role as a journalist now and that must be difficult
Speaker:to watch, you know, the numbers, the same as we've seen. a higher death rate of children
Speaker:in Gaza than like armed conflict over the last few years. That is the same with the amount
Speaker:of journalists that we've lost in this conflict. If that's even an adequate word for what's
Speaker:happening. Where it's hard to dispute at this point that the IDF is targeting Al Jazeera
Speaker:journalists and other journalists, but there are still people online that are saying otherwise.
Speaker:Yeah, like NATO Joe. Who's we don't like to talk about Joe on this program, but that's
Speaker:exactly who I'm talking about. You got it. Yeah. Yeah, of course. And he's doing his Oh, I left
Speaker:the left arc. And I mean, you know, I'm good for him on becoming a national post columnist.
Speaker:I hope it pays well. But. Yeah, I mean, again, we're seeing exactly what's happening. And
Speaker:there's just all these figures in Canadian media, not to mention government, telling us that
Speaker:it's not what it looks like. It's actually the opposite of what it looks like. That the grossest
Speaker:talking point for me is that, oh, no, Palestinians are suffering under Hamas. We're helping Palestinians
Speaker:by... flattening their neighborhoods. And then when you ask, OK, well, once this is all done,
Speaker:do you expect a Palestinian person who's lost their entire family to be more, have a more
Speaker:favorable disposition towards Israel or less, they say, oh, that doesn't matter. We need
Speaker:to destroy him. And it's like, but you just said that you support Palestinians. And it's
Speaker:just so phony. It's such a phony talking point. And again, No one outside of these like media
Speaker:circles believes this shit. And in people who like. Care about what these pundits have to
Speaker:say, and, you know, and there's a generational divide, too. There's a very clear generational
Speaker:divide, like our parents generation, which came right after the Holocaust, you know, and they
Speaker:saw sort of Israel as this great redemption narrative and just refused to believe it's
Speaker:anything. But. That. Um, but I think again, among younger people, especially people younger
Speaker:than ourselves, it's like, how do you justify this? Like why, why is the Holocaust? Why are
Speaker:the Palestinians being scapegoated for the Holocaust? Um, and, you know, people saying that, oh,
Speaker:October 7th was like a second Holocaust. It's like, well, if killing 1400 people, largely
Speaker:civilians, though, again, we don't know the total tally, but a lot of them were clearly
Speaker:civilians, then what is killing 9,000 and growing people? And again, I mean, Israel's not even,
Speaker:in past conflicts, I think Israel put a lot more emphasis on the fact that, oh, we're trying
Speaker:so hard to limit civilian casualties, but they just keep getting in the way. Human shields.
Speaker:Yeah, now it's just like, okay, we need a million of you to in one of the most densely populated
Speaker:places on Earth to locate to relocate to half of it, making it. I mean, I would assume that
Speaker:would that if Israel does wipe out northern Gaza and creates this like security buffer
Speaker:and confines everyone to southern Gaza, unless they flee elsewhere. which by the way they
Speaker:currently aren't allowed to do even if they want to. I mean that would make it, I suspect
Speaker:by far the most densely populated place on Earth, but I don't have the statistics in front of
Speaker:me. But just framing this, which is an act of ethnic cleansing, you're telling a million
Speaker:people to leave their homes and they're not going to have anything left when this is done.
Speaker:And say in trying to pressure Egypt into resettling them. And the Western nations will play a role
Speaker:in that too, in hiding their involvement, coming out looking like roses by taking in refugees
Speaker:or aiding in the resettlement. Yeah, well, I don't know if you... The liberals will be like,
Speaker:yay. I don't know if you saw that piece in 972 Mag, which is a great Israeli-Palestinian publication
Speaker:that I think your listeners should read. I mean, that is the plan, right? The the Israeli intelligence
Speaker:ministry, which the piece notes, isn't like a decision making body and sort of. Make suggestions
Speaker:that are aren't.
Speaker:Taken up by the government in the military was like, yeah, we need to relocate all of Gaza
Speaker:to the Sinai or. them resettled elsewhere. And yeah, and we're gonna ask that and we're gonna
Speaker:present it as we're doing them a favor. We're trying to limit civilian casualties by pushing
Speaker:them elsewhere. And you know, people, you know, otherwise people who are like, generally quite
Speaker:reasonable on this subject that I've spoken to in our critical of Israel are like, yeah,
Speaker:well, but That's not the official policy of the Israeli government. It's just this one
Speaker:ministry making suggestions. But the first part of that plan has already been implemented,
Speaker:which is clearing out northern Gaza, right? Reducing Gaza City to rubble, which is now,
Speaker:it seems to be what they're sending Israeli soldiers to do and just shoot anything. And
Speaker:yeah, I mean, more people. You know, the Sebernicka massacre in the 1990s, the Serbia committed
Speaker:against Bosnian Muslims killed 8,000 people. And now we're at 9,000 people in Gaza. I mean,
Speaker:by the time this episode is out, I don't recall what your sort of turnaround is. But pretty
Speaker:quick, I mean, it will probably be 10,000, right? And no one's doing anything. I mean, I shouldn't
Speaker:say Western because it's one thing, you know, just to say, you know, it's easy to say, oh,
Speaker:Western governments aren't doing anything to stop it. It's more it's worse than that. That
Speaker:the United States is actively abetting it. I mean, they just approved three point five billion
Speaker:dollars for Israel. That has no congressional oversight or anything. Right. Just like giving
Speaker:them money with like. No, like I only want to say no strings attached because USA to Israel
Speaker:already has no strings attached. But this is like. Well, especially when you position it
Speaker:amongst what's happening right now, like how can you at the same time ask for restraint
Speaker:and then give them unconditional funds? Right. Yeah. And Canada too. I'm looking into this.
Speaker:Actually, I'm working on a piece today for the maple that Canada sent a special ops team to
Speaker:Israel. Right. I don't know if you caught that piece in global. We did. We covered that on
Speaker:our last show, The Special Task Force. Right, exactly. And he also flew when we were evacuating
Speaker:Israelis a few weeks ago. We flew a couple of plane loads of Israelis back to Israel. And
Speaker:Global Affairs Canada essentially won't say whether they were reservists or not. But I
Speaker:asked them about it and they said they weren't explicitly reservists, which explicitly seems
Speaker:to be doing a lot of work in that. And so, yeah, I mean, we're totally complicit. And that's
Speaker:why I was talking to a friend of mine over the weekend who works in media. They're progressive.
Speaker:They're reporters, so they have to do the whole neutrality thing, but they don't cover global
Speaker:affairs or anything, but they're just saying, Yeah, I've been avoiding this topic because
Speaker:like, I know it's horrible, but I don't have any skin in the game, right? I'm not Palestinian.
Speaker:I'm not Jewish. And it's like, no, but you're Canadian. So you do have skin in the game because
Speaker:we're complicit. Not only are we possibly flying reservists to participate in this. ethnic cleansing
Speaker:campaign in Gaza and we're sending a special forces team to do that, which the government
Speaker:says is just to protect or consulate, but I'm confused as to why special forces team would
Speaker:be needed to do that. But I'm also not a military expert, so that could be a valid explanation.
Speaker:But we also have free trade agreement with Israel that is horribly skewed. I mean, goods produced
Speaker:in illegal settlements. have no tariffs on them. And I mean, that's a good, again, I don't expect
Speaker:the Canadian government to call for Palestinian liberation. Or BDS. Or yeah, certainly not
Speaker:BDS. Trudeau thinks that it's an evil thing. Overnight. Yeah, yeah, no, there was a great
Speaker:piece in the Maple yesterday or the day before. I don't know if you saw it from Alex Kosh,
Speaker:whose work on this has been fantastic. His friend of mine, shout out to Alex. That was like every
Speaker:nonviolent form of Palestinian resistance. has been condemned by Canada, right? The United
Speaker:Nations resolutions, BDS, Israel apartheid week. And we know what happens when we cut off everybody's
Speaker:avenue to change, right? Like even within small institutions, you get disturbances, right?
Speaker:People who need to break out of the processes because they don't work. They're not doing
Speaker:anything. And so, yeah, like you point to the March of Return. for folks in Gaza and they
Speaker:were just mowed down, right? With the policy of shoot to injure especially. So the casualties
Speaker:were still over 200 dead, but thousands, thousands injured. Again, media targeted, medics targeted,
Speaker:and that was simply a march, right? It was to the wall, you know, and if you describe it
Speaker:and understand it as a prison, it does... it's easy to frame it as a violent act, right? That's
Speaker:the whole idea. But absolutely everything, even simple things like simple actions to push IDF
Speaker:off of campuses were met with resistance, slander, you know, just that isn't that is an anti-Jewish
Speaker:thing to do. It's, you know, taking even an anti-Israeli position is such a has been labeled.
Speaker:as un-Canadian. And I guess, again, I go back to that point where you start looking and reminding
Speaker:ourselves how colonial we are still, and how we frame our foreign policy that way. It doesn't
Speaker:become so puzzling as to why we try to fend off any criticism of us. I think there's a
Speaker:lot of projection there in terms of Canada's own actions and that of Israel. But you talk
Speaker:about the role of the media. How do you see your role? How do you, as an independent journalist,
Speaker:going up against publications like the National Post that so ironic for Joe Roberts to frame
Speaker:Al Jazeera as simply a propaganda machine, right? He calls it a state-owned enterprise. What's
Speaker:the quote? under the charade of objective journalism, is a propaganda machine designed to subvert
Speaker:US interests. I don't know how else you describe our media most of the time, just with the opposite
Speaker:goals, of propping up US and Canadian interests, capital interests, but there's a real attempt
Speaker:to invalidate the one set of journalists. that we can somehow rely on from inside Gaza and
Speaker:the West Bank, but you're a little bit more removed, right? So what's your role as an independent
Speaker:journalist? And it's really complicated because then how do you focus on anything else? Maybe
Speaker:that's like a two-part question because I'm struggling with that as well. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker:it's been a struggle. I mean, you know, I have a book coming out about Canadian and Alberta
Speaker:politics. Uh, and I mean, it's coming out in a few months, right? So it's not like I have
Speaker:to be promoting it, uh, aggressively right now, but it's like, yeah, I mean, I can't just seeing,
Speaker:um, how there's no voice in almost no voice in Canadian, uh, punditry, um, criticism. I
Speaker:mean, every, everyone is besides Shreep Hardkar. every like regular Canadian columnist has either
Speaker:said nothing or talked about how Israel is preventing another Holocaust by flattening refugee camps
Speaker:and bombing hospitals and ambulances and using white phosphorus on United Nations schools.
Speaker:I mean, this is evil shit, evil, right? And these same people who are talking about the
Speaker:evils of Hamas. And I look, I agree. I agree. Like Hamas is in again, it's easy for me to
Speaker:say, and I don't expect Palestinian people to make this observation as a condition for solidarity
Speaker:with them. But Hamas is a sinister authoritarian religious fundamentalists movement that is
Speaker:profoundly conservative, but You have to look at the big picture. When you look at the big
Speaker:picture, it becomes clear that we're not the good guys. Right. Like. Right. And not right.
Speaker:Like this isn't that there's this lazy binary thinking that
Speaker:geopolitics doesn't exist and they're just good guys or us in bad guys who are that. But there
Speaker:are more obvious as it has been right now, I think. Yeah, and it's not again in anything
Speaker:you say in support of the Palestinians that actually listens to what Palestinian people
Speaker:are saying is you're pro Hamas. You support you know all these which comes with the terrorist
Speaker:quote right or the terrorist
Speaker:You know, the PFLP, which I mean, the PFLP, I I'm not going to say I support the PFLP,
Speaker:but I am certainly sympathetic to the aims of their political, their political win. And yeah,
Speaker:like just saying, oh, saying from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free is a call
Speaker:for genocide. Like on what planet? On what planet is everyone colonial lens, right? If you are
Speaker:looking at it from that colonial perspective of like savages and the civilized, there are
Speaker:people that are viewing it this way. They're looking at land back in a different way. Now,
Speaker:like they do believe it. They believe because if you look at the basis of Zionism that like
Speaker:has to be. one religion, right? Like it's, it is an exclusionary idea. And so they think
Speaker:in that way, because that's how they've lived. And so, you know, it's the same way I think
Speaker:that people like Canadians are just going, well, is that how you'd feel if indigenous people
Speaker:just started trying to take land back in the same way Hamas did on October 7th? Again, like
Speaker:a real kind of revisionist history, but that's how they view it, right? It's projection. That's
Speaker:how Israel has gotten to where they are. They have removed Palestinians as they claim land,
Speaker:right? So any assertion that Palestinians should claim land back, they assume would remain removing
Speaker:Jewish people because that is how apartheid works. That is what they've lived and breathed
Speaker:and been taught that is the only solution. And so that's how I think people misinterpret that.
Speaker:not to mention it's perpetuated by people who don't, who probably do know better and are
Speaker:just saying this to demonize Palestinian supporters in all the way that they do. But I think some
Speaker:people then hear it and believe it because that's what they've seen. And they've seen Canada
Speaker:do it to Indigenous people. You know, when you need a land, you wipe out what's there, right?
Speaker:Some may survive in some fashion or another, but not without assimilation and all these
Speaker:definitions that do encompass genocide. And Yeah. So, but that is very frustrating. And
Speaker:I'm proud to see Palestinians not back down from that, because I know organizing about
Speaker:eight years ago, you know, it's not the first time that chant has been focused on as meaning
Speaker:something that it doesn't. But it was the response of a lot of, not every, but a lot of organizations
Speaker:that were pushing for Palestinian rights at the time was to ask supporters not to chant
Speaker:that. And. You know, that's not a decision for me to make. I'm usually just a participant.
Speaker:Well, you know, I remember it right. I remember back in the day, the chant Viva Palestina,
Speaker:Viva Intifada, which is now just Viva Palestina. Like they drop that because people are saying,
Speaker:oh, it's called violence, which is, of course, bullshit. but it can be interpreted that way.
Speaker:But from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. I mean, that, like, yeah, no, like,
Speaker:people who are telling you that is calling for the elimination of the state of Israel, which,
Speaker:I mean, I guess you could interpret it that way, but you could, I mean, it's just saying
Speaker:that. Palestinians living between two bodies of water should have the same rights as Jewish
Speaker:people do. In fact, is the destruction of the State of Israel, then should the State of Israel
Speaker:exist as a Jewish state? I think the answer to that question is obvious. And then the extension
Speaker:that, oh, this is calling for genocide of Jews. How? First of all, you're conflating the existence
Speaker:of Jewish people with... existence of the state of Israel, which to me is anti-Semitic. And
Speaker:then you're saying that like you're conflating states with people. States don't have rights
Speaker:to exist. They exist. There's reality of their existence that people have to contend with,
Speaker:but it's people. It's people have a right to exist. And if that's the best they can do,
Speaker:if they're saying there are these anti-Semitic rallies all over the world because they're
Speaker:calling for everyone, have equal rights between two bodies of water? What does that tell you?
Speaker:What does that tell you about this narrative that is being perpetuated in the media? But
Speaker:I think few people seem because they're like, you know, you read the Globe and Mail, like
Speaker:this is in general, but definitely especially on this issue. Well, no, but you read its reporting.
Speaker:I get it. I get the paper on the Saturday paper and just read it over the weekend. But you
Speaker:read the reporting and it's like you learn something like you. Often you have to read between the
Speaker:lines and you have to sort of. Way. Different points of view, which aren't always of equal
Speaker:worth, but you learn something often when you when you read the reporting in a paper like
Speaker:Then you go to the opinion page where it lays out what opinions you're allowed to have. And.
Speaker:It's it. They don't jive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like the most repugnant. Shit
Speaker:that is it's just pure ideology, right? It's pure ideology, not that ideology doesn't, in
Speaker:fact. the way people report the news, because they absolutely does. Including yourself. Right?
Speaker:Yeah, of course. And the difference is I'm open about that. And I sort of sometimes blur reporting
Speaker:with analysis and opinion. But yeah, I mean, you learn something. But I mean, there's nothing
Speaker:to learn from these minds. And there's no... There's no even acknowledgement that there's
Speaker:another perspective to it. And again, I've seen, you know, and I think the only if I'm not mistaken,
Speaker:the only Canadian newspaper that actually does foreign reporting anymore is The Globe. And
Speaker:like, you know, I think like Jeffrey York and Mark McKinnon and others have done a good job,
Speaker:I think, at. And I think a lot of people disagree with me, but they've done a good enough job,
Speaker:like presenting what's going on accurately without explicitly telling you what is going on. Right.
Speaker:But then you read Andrew Coyne and Robin Urbach and Marcus G and Conrad Yakubuski. And it's
Speaker:just like, what are you talking about? Like, go out and talk to someone like. You know,
Speaker:I mean, like me a person that's not all anyone is reading. Right. Because if it was when you
Speaker:pair these kind of so-called unbiased reportings with highly inflammatory opinion pieces, you
Speaker:come out with one end unless you've got someone that's real critical thinking, trying to dissect
Speaker:what they're reading and taking the effort to look beyond that. But so few do that. Right.
Speaker:So it's it ends up being left to independent journalists like yourself and other folks for
Speaker:saying. That quiet part out loud, oh, yeah. McKinnon won't say the which reminds me because
Speaker:to directly answer your question, the job of a writer, I don't know if you saw Ta-Nehisi
Speaker:Coates on Democracy Now yesterday talking about his experience in Gaza, is actually visiting.
Speaker:I think it was actually the West Bank. I don't know if he went to Gaza, but And just saying
Speaker:that, like, the really resonated with me when he said the job of a writer is to bear witness,
Speaker:right? It's to be honest and tell people what you're seeing and in that of all people, writers
Speaker:should be the first ones to speak out about this. And. You know, it's funny because I remember
Speaker:back when Cornell West and Tommy C. Coats had their had their like feud and one of Cornell
Speaker:West's points that I thought was valid was he's like, you never hear Tommy C. Coats talk about
Speaker:Palestine like, well, why is that? Why isn't he like challenging power in that way? And
Speaker:now he is. And so, I mean, it is good to see. And I do think it's a sign that the narrative
Speaker:is shifting the question because I don't think I don't expect Palestinian people to care.
Speaker:what the West that the Western narrative is shifting, like Western sympathy isn't going
Speaker:to give them their rights. I mean, it will play a role. You know, it certainly doesn't hurt.
Speaker:But I mean, I think the narrative clearly is shifting on this topic. And I think, again,
Speaker:if you read the op-ed pages of our newspapers. Or if you read this like really neutral reporting
Speaker:that is supposedly just the facts, it's hard to see that. But then you see what's happening
Speaker:in the streets, right? You see massive protests like in and that are growing in the pro-Israel
Speaker:side isn't growing. Same people, right? In fact, it's getting I would say, yeah, it's shrinking
Speaker:because it's becoming harder and harder to hold that line on October 7th. October 8th, they
Speaker:had many people on their side, right? Felt like it. And it. Yeah, because people who know the
Speaker:history and context were like, yeah, well, you're about to do way worse and have done way worse.
Speaker:But but. It's just I. You know, I think I think I saw David Clion, who writes for Jewish currents
Speaker:and N plus one and. May
Speaker:tweeted that like Israel is like saying a world record for like burning international goodwill.
Speaker:And yeah, I mean, it's going to be hard once the dust settles for this for. People. to justify
Speaker:not boycotting Israel, right? For people to want to engage with Israel when, I mean, clearly,
Speaker:this apartheid system, of course, is bad for Palestinians. Of course, it's bad for Arabs
Speaker:in Southern Lebanon, in Egypt, in Jordan. But it's also bad for Israelis because it leads
Speaker:to things like October 7th. Right. And I think that is an important point too. Right. That
Speaker:you I think Archbishop Tutu said when he was talking about Palestine, you know, he's saying
Speaker:like going through the checkpoints and seeing these Palestinians being brutalized. It's also
Speaker:I'm trying to say this in a way that isn't centering this sort of Israeli experience like you've
Speaker:seen sometimes, but it also does. damage the souls of the occupiers, right? To see these
Speaker:kids just manning checkpoints or invading Gaza City. I mean, that. And again, we shouldn't
Speaker:use this to detract from the suffering of the Palestinians, which is far worse. But it's
Speaker:also bad for the occupiers, right? It's all, like, it is... And it's important to understand
Speaker:their psyche, right? To how... this is perpetuated, right? How they can dance outside of an open
Speaker:air prison and not be impacted in that way, you know, to because a lot of people want to
Speaker:look to the people of Israel to change their government, you know, but I think like, I,
Speaker:we lose sight of how, but like, change their government, we are in changing our own government
Speaker:for the better, right? As they change their go ahead. change their government to what?
Speaker:I mean, the entire Zionist political spectrum in Israel supports the war, right? It's only
Speaker:a handful of the- You don't have to call it a war. Yeah, yeah, this campaign of slaughter.
Speaker:Right? I mean, the entire mainstream Israeli, right? All the people who were protesting Netanyahu,
Speaker:they were protesting for the Palestinians somewhere and I support the protests because there's
Speaker:something to build on, right? But now they're all fired up to take revenge on Palestine.
Speaker:Of course, the attacks of October 7th were revenge, right? And I don't want to be both sidesy about
Speaker:it, but there is a cycle of violence, right? And that doesn't- Well, even Hamas issues another
Speaker:statement saying we are going to keep attacking in response to this. And I'm still shocked
Speaker:at how many people see that statement presented as evidence of how barbaric they are, but in
Speaker:the midst of a campaign of revenge. Like in the campaign of revenge that you've acknowledged
Speaker:is revenge, most part. Some are just like, oh, we're weeding out Hamas. But no, in general,
Speaker:it's like an eye for an eye. This is what you get. You supported Hamas. You didn't remove
Speaker:them. You let them build tunnels instead of water pipe. Like just the most nonsense. nonsense
Speaker:coming out. And then to just narrow that ability or that right for revenge just to the state
Speaker:of Israel, that only they can be justified, and they call it defense, in this. But if Hamas
Speaker:were to return, if Hamas were to respond to the death of over 4,000 of their children.
Speaker:Because you're calling them human shields. You are saying these are families of Hamas, essentially,
Speaker:right? That is the line that's being told. What do you think those fighters are going to do
Speaker:now? What if they were so angry and backs to the wall and responded in that horrific way?
Speaker:I can't, I can't understand how people can't look at Hamas saying we're going to do this
Speaker:again and, and see anything. But well, I guess, yeah, that's what That's what happens, right?
Speaker:But no, it's this shock, this like, how could they? You see, you see, we're justified. And
Speaker:it's like, no, you don't understand. That's the receipts that you are not justified, that
Speaker:your tactics are not going to work. But I think like, if you really boil it down, we don't
Speaker:have time to get into it today, but I think you and I both know, and a lot of people know
Speaker:that it's not even about Hamas. You hit on it at the beginning that it is a land grab. And
Speaker:just like we use the war on terror to justify solidifying oil reserves and getting contracts
Speaker:in all of these countries and whatnot, very little of it had to do with actually rooting
Speaker:out militant groups, whether you call them terrorists or not. It's always about getting land and
Speaker:then selling it as something else. So those intelligence reports that we see that advocate
Speaker:for... moving everybody out of the north of Gaza, that'll be used in the same way the weapons
Speaker:of mass destruction, like these memos that are used to then justify what was already been
Speaker:in the cards for a long time. Right? Like, Yeah, exactly. And that that's another thing about
Speaker:October 7. I mean, it gave these the openly exterminationist Israeli government the opportunity
Speaker:to do what it's said it wants to do and people, you know, point to that interview with that
Speaker:Hamas official as like this smoking gun that Hamas wants nothing more but to commit violence
Speaker:against Israeli Jews. And it's just like, look at what the Israeli government people in the
Speaker:Israeli government have been saying for. I mean, look, it's a more Ben Gavir. Right. Or Netanyahu
Speaker:himself. Or even I mean, Talking about how there is no alternative in Israel, I mean, the president
Speaker:of Israel, which is supposed to be this like governor general type position, is figurehead.
Speaker:But he was the leader of the Labor Party before he was appointed. And he's saying there are
Speaker:no civilians in Gaza. It's their own fault. If they should have thought about this before
Speaker:an overthrown Hamas. And right. And again. um, they're, they're being like deliberately obtuse
Speaker:when, when they just point at Hamas and pretend that this doesn't exist in any sort of like
Speaker:continuum. That's just this vacuum of Hamas and that this is like, how can you compare?
Speaker:How can you compare the this? bombing of this open-air prison, this deliberately disproportionate,
Speaker:indiscriminate bombing of an open-air prison, an ethnic cleansing therein, to the fight against
Speaker:the Nazis. Like, that is grotesque. It is so grotesque. And again, I think when the dust
Speaker:fells, a lot of people are going to say... Oh, yeah, you know, I didn't realize how bad it
Speaker:was or I didn't get I didn't know fucking Joe Roberts goes around saying that he was against
Speaker:it all along. He knew all along that he took screenshots. Yeah, don't let them forget. These
Speaker:people should never be allowed to forget what they supported when it mattered. And I'm just
Speaker:saying, especially because the right wingers are going to whatever they're going to go to
Speaker:their deathbed saying that this was justified. But the liberals, the more centrist types or
Speaker:center-right types, like they cannot be allowed to forget that when it mattered, they fully
Speaker:supported this campaign of ethnic cleansing. And... Like, no pressure, but it's going to
Speaker:be up to folks like you to make sure that folks don't forget, right? The Canadian, all public,
Speaker:especially political, memories are very short. We allow folks to spin the hell out of this
Speaker:down the road. And so, you know, you've... you've got a big role to play there and along with
Speaker:other people, you know, it's not on all your back, but before we go, I wanted to get your
Speaker:reaction on something and in a way, I guess, it asks a question of what would you do? You
Speaker:know, we hear some statements coming out from people working at the BBC that anchors and
Speaker:staff are crying at their desks, having to pump out Israeli propaganda. in a time like this
Speaker:and how, you know, that internal struggle and how do they live with themselves? Lots of people
Speaker:are calling for resignations of MPs, you know, having that platform and not adequately using
Speaker:it. What would you do if you were a BBC anchor or you had one of these positions where clearly
Speaker:the pressure is on to toe a certain line that is genocide. This isn't just any old capitalist
Speaker:policy, right? Like this is something next level. be an armchair journalist for a moment, not
Speaker:that you aren't one, but like of the folks that we're being really critical of, like what would
Speaker:you do in that position? What should they be doing instead of this? I mean, yeah, I do think
Speaker:we should feel sorry for them because at the end of the day, I mean, there are a lot of
Speaker:media jobs around and not everyone can do what I do and just go independent and depend on
Speaker:good building audience and depend on people's goodwill. So I am empathetic to that, especially
Speaker:people who put, I mean, when you have journalists gang, Palestinian journalists getting fired
Speaker:for simply speaking out against what's happening to their people should never happen to an Israeli
Speaker:journalist or Jewish journalists. No. I mean, Yeah, I mean, the least you could do is speak
Speaker:out and say, this is wrong, you know, and I know you're going to you don't want to get
Speaker:reprisals, but there are more of us than there are of them. And so I would it's easy for me
Speaker:to say in my position, right. I mean, you saw in 2021, there was that letter signed by hundreds
Speaker:of Canadian journalists.
Speaker:the way Canadian media frames this conflict. And a lot of them are silent, right? Because
Speaker:they got a backlash for it, right? I mean, there is, you know, there's the Honest Report in
Speaker:Canada, for example, right? This pro-Israel
Speaker:media watchdog. I mean, they're open about it. They're bragging that they got these two journalists
Speaker:fired. And they're saying, this is an example to anyone. If you... express anti-Israel sentiment,
Speaker:we will hold you accountable. And
Speaker:all I can say is just don't be intimidated. Right? I mean... There are people who value
Speaker:what you do. And again, it's hard because there is a certain degree of security with a job,
Speaker:but. For me, I can just speak to my own experience. I'm not going to tell people what to do, because
Speaker:I do empathize with the situation they're in, which is nothing compared to what Palestinians
Speaker:and Gaza are going through, but I get it. It's just, think about when the dust settles and
Speaker:you look back on this. Will you be able to live with the fact that you didn't do the few things
Speaker:within... your power to at least try and put a stop to this. And I don't know, maybe some
Speaker:people are OK with that, right? Because they're just like, yeah, I got a family to feed. And
Speaker:and I can't risk job security over speaking out about something I don't like have direct
Speaker:control over. But but for me, it's like I wouldn't be able to live with myself. if I didn't do
Speaker:like everything in my power right now, which isn't a lot to bear witness. And I think it's
Speaker:easy to focus on, to just try and focus on the other things and just ignore what's going on.
Speaker:But this is, I mean, this is serious stuff.
Speaker:Again, the more people that speak out, the harder it is for
Speaker:these pro-Israel groups to target them.
Speaker:Just remember that you're going to get called anti-Semitic, but you don't have to disprove
Speaker:you're anti-Semitic. These people have to prove that you're anti-Semitic. And again, if the
Speaker:best they can do is saying that you said that everyone between the Jordan River and Mediterranean
Speaker:Sea should have equal rights. If that's the most anti-Semitic thing that you've ever said,
Speaker:then you're good. No one believes that shit. Like you're boss's mate. And again, that's
Speaker:the problem. But, you know, now is not the time for cowardice, right? Now is the time for courage,
Speaker:which is in very short supply, as you can see. And so, again, I get it. you have a job you
Speaker:need to provide for your family or for yourself. But like, just think of the bigger picture
Speaker:here. And see that the media can manufacture whatever consent it wants. But the people are
Speaker:largely on your side. And Again, I don't expect journalists to, you know, organize pro-Palestine
Speaker:marches or criticize their bosses when they make shitty editorial decisions, although that
Speaker:would be nice. Just go to the protest, not as a journalist, just as a human being, right?
Speaker:Strengthen numbers. You know, wear a mask if you don't want- You should be wearing a mask
Speaker:anyway. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. But all the more reason to wear a mask. And yeah, like individually,
Speaker:we can't do much, but together we can do a lot more. And I think the tide is turning. It's
Speaker:just turning slower than it needs to be. And that's really distressing when you think about
Speaker:it that way. But again. Um, people can contribute to the cause in different ways, right? And,
Speaker:um, just do something, do something, even if it's tiny, like, like we need all hands on
Speaker:deck here, right? Because we are, we are up against very influential forces, but together
Speaker:we can be an influential counterforce. Thank you, Jeremy. for those words there to encourage
Speaker:folks, but for doing a lot of the heavy lifting up there. I know you're gonna say it pales
Speaker:in comparison to what Palestinians are doing, even the diaspora, and we get that, but I also
Speaker:see you sticking your neck out there and taking some blows, whether you read them or mute them
Speaker:or block them. I know some of them get through, and I wanna just encourage you to just keep
Speaker:it up and know that you make space for people when you do what you do. and even for folks
Speaker:like me, but also for just regular people talking to their family and feeling validated and having
Speaker:some of the receipts to back up the things that they need to say and getting it from sources
Speaker:that they know they can trust. So thank you, Jeremy, for coming on the show and for all
Speaker:of your hard work. Thanks for having me, Jess. Always, always a pleasure. That is a wrap on
Speaker:another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also, a very big
Speaker:thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Helu Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is
Speaker:an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter at BPofDisruption.
Speaker:If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo, please share our content. And
Speaker:if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only does our support come from the progressive
Speaker:community, so does our content. So reach out to us and let us know what or who we should
Speaker:be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
