Connect with Bruce on Instagram: @amazingfoxbat
You are listening to Playmaker's Podcast, the podcast by
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:and for game industry professionals.
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:On every episode, I talk to a legend or
leader or both of the game industry and
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:I dive deep with them into their areas
of expertise and experience to suss out
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:information that you can use to do your
work in the game industry better and
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:to give you a bigger perspective on the
industry as a whole so you can adapt
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:and succeed in your career, in your
game, in your game business venture.
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:This week, another lost episode.
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:It's a good one.
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:So make sure you've got those
Bluetooth headphones snugly
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:in place, and let's do this.
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:I realize I cheese it up a
little bit in those intros.
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:You know I do that with love, right?
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:And speaking of love, I would
love it if you would write a
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:review of PlayMaker's podcast.
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:That is the primary way that people
find out about the show, that they
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:validate that it's some good stuff.
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:Because when they hear it helps
people like you, then they
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:realize it could help them too.
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:So if you're feeling it, write it.
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:If not, that's cool too.
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:I'm gonna win you over.
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:I am.
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:I'm gonna make this show better and
better and better until you're like, Dang!
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:Okay, you know what?
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:I will write a review.
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:Sure.
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:That may not be today.
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:That may not be tomorrow.
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:But until that day comes, I'll
be here producing the interviews
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:that give you what you need.
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:And if you're not getting what
you need from these interviews,
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:I want to hear about that too.
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:Shoot me an email, jordanatbrightblack.
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:co so I can find out what you do
need and produce that content.
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:Now with all that said, let's get into the
introduction of this week's epic guest.
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:When I worked at Zynga, I gotta be
honest, I went through some pretty
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:stressful and difficult times and
I was so lucky to sit next to, for
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:a brief period, this week's guest.
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:Because not only was he someone
who I was able to learn from
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:a lot just by working with him, but also
His presence was very calming to me.
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:He would do things like
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:remind me that things were
going to be all right.
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:He would do things like maybe
on a Friday after work hours,
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:offer me a glass of wine,
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:stuff like that.
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:And it really stuck with me that there's
such an impact to be made, not just
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:by what you do, but how you do it.
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:But this guest has certainly
done a lot that's very impressive
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:on the what category as well.
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:He was a game designer at Monolith
Productions, working on The Matrix Online.
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:He worked as a senior developer at Sigil
Games, was a senior game designer at
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:LucasArts, a mission designer at NCSoft.
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:He was a lead game designer at Zynga.
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:Elite Game Designer at Bigpoint.
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:Elite Systems Designer at Sega.
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:The director of game design at
TinyCo, and he currently works as
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:lead systems designer at Hangar 13.
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:Now, when we conducted this interview,
because it is a lost episode, he
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:hadn't yet started at Hangar 13.
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:Hangar 13, so we don't talk about that
in particular, but what we do talk
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:about is the journey from tabletop
role playing design all the way to
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:live operations on free to play and
mobile If you do, or plan to do, live
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:operations, this interview is can't miss.
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:Ladies and gentlemen, I
present Bruce Harlick.
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:Bruce, welcome to PlayMakers.
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:I'm happy to be here.
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:Thanks for having me.
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:Let's start off with a little bit
about your background in the industry,
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:how you got into the industry.
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:I know you've been So I'd like
to hear a little bit about that.
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:Yeah, I mean, I've actually been around
for longer than I, uh, like to say.
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:I got my start making, uh, pen and
paper role playing games way back
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:in 1981, um, working on a superhero
role playing game called Champions.
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:And superhero kind of, you know, Became
a reoccurring theme in my, my career.
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:I stumbled into that because, um,
people I went to high school with,
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:uh, made a role playing game.
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:I went to work for them, learned
how to, uh, design games, uh,
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:did a lot for that company.
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:So you, you went to work for a
company that was started by people
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:you went to high school with?
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:Yeah.
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:One high school classmate and then
another person from our gaming group.
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:Um, and how old were they when
they started this company?
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:Oh, George McDonald.
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:Uh, must have been about 21 or 22.
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:And Steve Peterson, maybe a year older.
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:Wow.
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:Um, I was 18, um, at, at the time,
literally right outta high school.
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:So, so is this like, just after, like
when, when did Dungeons and Dragons
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:come out and kind of explode the scene?
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:DD first came out, I think it was in 70.
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:Yeah, I think it was 1973.
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:I think I got into it in 1974.
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:So not at all close,
actually, to the early 80s.
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:We're probably considered a second
generation role playing system, if
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:D& D and that ilk were the first.
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:Maybe third generation, depending
upon how you slice that kind of stuff.
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:But we were very systematic,
very, um, uh, balanced.
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:You kind of spent points
to buy whatever you wanted.
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:We removed the randomness
from character generation.
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:And that, I think, informed a lot
of my system design sensibilities
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:as, uh, uh, the years went by.
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:Anyway.
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:How did you learn that stuff?
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:How did you and George figure out
how to do that sort of balance?
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:Well, George is a brilliant
designer, as is Steve.
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:But the genesis of the idea For this
role playing game was George's and, uh,
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:he came up with the basic idea and it
kind of took over our D& D group and
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:we did a lot of playtesting for a few
years and went through many iterations
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:of the rules and, uh, you know, until
finally, uh, he and Steve decided they
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:wanted to publish this in, uh, 1981
and it turned out to be a big hit, but
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:there was just a lot of trial and error.
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:You learn by doing, which
is probably the best way.
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:Um, if you're fortunate enough
to be able to do so to learn.
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:So I did everything for the company
from shipping boxes to, uh, the last
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:thing I did was, uh, acted as company
president for about six months.
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:Um, but mostly what I did was
manage the game line for champions,
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:uh, which involved developing a
product, managing game books for
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:the role playing game, which.
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:was a tabletop experience for those
of you who aren't familiar with
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:the analog version of those things.
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:So, you know, these books have
the information that, uh, people
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:needed to create scenarios that
they would run their friends, their
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:friends through and the information
that the players needed to create
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:characters to play in those scenarios.
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:So how many books came out and
what was the kind of span of time?
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:Gosh, a lot of books came out.
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:And let me tell you where my head is at.
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:I'm thinking about the, um, you know,
I'm thinking about live operations and
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:I know that's something you've had a
lot of experience with and, uh, and
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:how, you know, when you're, when you
have a system like this and you're
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:creating these books, it's sort of
like content updates to a live product.
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:That's a great, great, uh, comparison
Jordan and you're, you're 100 percent
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:right when the company, uh, was
going, we needed to put, we tried
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:to put out about a book a month.
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:We probably hit 10 a year.
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:That's amazing.
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:Um, to do that.
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:And some of these, and they ranged
from small adventure books to large.
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:Kind of rule supplement books and you
see the same pattern you look at Dungeons
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:and Dragons or any of the successful role
playing games today They'll put out the
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:core rule books and then they'll have
a regular cadence of support material
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:new class books adventures bestiaries
grimoires Monster magic item books
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:if they're fit, you know, all those
obviously for fantasy games types of
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:things But just to keep the players
buying and to keep the players Money
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:going in because once that you bought the
core rulebook, you could theoretically
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:never need more books after that.
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:You have what you need to play the game.
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:It's kind of like buying a game
and then not buying any more
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:downloadable content or any of
the sequels or anything like that.
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:That's great for the publisher for
a year or two, but they need to
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:keep, you know, the computer world.
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:They need more stuff.
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:Right.
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:It's the same, it's the same problem
we run into with just, you know, having
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:a product versus having a business.
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:You can put out this one thing,
but to have a sustainable business,
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:you got to figure out ways to
continue to have new things.
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:Do you guys do like a leapfrog
style development on these books,
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:or you'd have one coming out and
one earlier in development at
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:the, kind of at the same time?
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:We would have a lot.
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:Um, in development at the same time,
I mostly worked with freelancers,
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:the freelancers, it wasn't their day
job, they weren't always really good
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:at hitting deadlines, you know, a lot
of people, first time writers, it's
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:hard to write books, uh, be they game
books or novels or strategy guides or
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:whatever, it's hard to write books,
so we would have a bunch of irons in
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:the fire, we, we, as we got better at
things, we tried to have a more planned
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:calendar and work to that schedule.
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:But, you know, uh, fortune throws
you, uh, slings and arrows and, you
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:know, sometimes you needed to adjust,
but it was not unlike building a
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:cadence calendar for a live game.
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:You wanted to make sure that, um,
you had major books coming out at
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:specific times, like, oh, say, for
Gen Con, which was the biggest, um,
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:gaming convention, um, at the time.
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:And you always wanted a major release
at Gen Con, um, but you would kind
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:of want to do a major book that
maybe follow up with a couple of
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:lighter books and then a major book.
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:And then a couple of lighter books.
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:And the major books would
have higher price points.
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:The minor books would have lower price
points, but you would also want to
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:make sure that you, you didn't end
up with having four big, hefty rule
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:books in a row, because that could
really overwhelm your players wallets
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:or three adventures, which only
the game master would need because.
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:That appealed to a very small
subset of your player base.
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:How similar that is to what we would do
on a content calendar, wanting to balance
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:some features right against each other
and not have too many similar mechanics.
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:after another.
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:It's interesting, Jordan,
because I've never actually
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:made that comparison before.
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:Me neither.
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:Right, right now, but you
are 100 percent right.
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:And it kind of explains maybe why
I enjoy live game ops so much.
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:Okay, we're going to get to that.
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:We're going to get to that.
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:Before we do, take me from that work, pen
and paper kind of work, or it sounds like
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:a lot of editorial and business work,
to Uh, your, your video game career.
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:Yeah.
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:So, um, we made a stab at doing a
video game champions, the computer
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:game, um, which I think was at one
time was one of the most legendary
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:pieces of vaporware in the industry.
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:We actually got the cover of,
uh, computer gaming world, um,
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:and never came out, which was
the first time that had happened.
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:I think not the last.
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:But, um, after Champions, I,
uh, wandered over to work for
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:But Champions did get made.
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:Oh, the the did, but that's much later.
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:Okay, okay.
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:Much later, and we weren't involved.
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:Okay.
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:After Hero Games, um, I, uh, wandered
over to work for Accolade slash Infogroms.
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:What was the game was it Test Drive?
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:The one where you were, like,
escaping the cops in a Ferrari?
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:Uh, no, I, I, I didn't do that one,
but we did do a lot of racing games.
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:Um, a lot of Looney Tunes games,
you know, a bunch of console games.
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:Um, I was, I was like, uh, you know,
consuming, I was like a kid playing those
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:games that you were working on there.
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:Yeah, we, we, we did
stuff for the Dreamcast.
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:I think I did some, uh, documentations
for some Xbox titles around the Xbox
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:launch, the original Xbox, um, some PS1.
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:Um, PC, all that kind of good
stuff, which, which, which was good.
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:That was, that was a good, uh, couple
of years, but it wasn't actually
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:making games, it was making things
that was peripheral to games.
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:And what was that like, like emotionally
working, working on that stuff?
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:Was it like, they should
have done these things?
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:What, you know, what was the experience?
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:Sometimes mostly you're very
aware because you're working
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:very closely with the dev teams.
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:Um, you know, most of whom, um,
were in house, um, And, uh, uh,
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:the, the South Bay of California,
um, is what's now Silicon Valley.
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:It wasn't back then, but
there was some of that.
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:Uh, and sometimes you could offer
suggestions like, Hey, I've been playing
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:the build and, but by the time I got
my hands on it, It was too late really
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:affect any changes that probably made
you very hungry that's what i would
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:imagine from that kind of role it did
and so i actually hear games got acquired
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:and jump back to work for hero games
this was in the height of the dot com.
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:boom and everything.
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:When the parent company of Hero Games,
and that's when I was, um, running
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:the company, when they kind of blew
up, I got fed up with, uh, working
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:on games and quit gaming forever.
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:Um, professionally, you know, I've, I've
always been a game player all my life.
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:Um, and went to go do technical
writing and technical editing for,
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:um, a tech startup and then send
microsystems on their coursework.
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:And that's what I was doing when I kind
of accidentally got pulled back into the
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:game industry this time on video games.
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:Um, Yeah, it's, I think my career
sometimes can be defined by a series
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:of accidents or, uh, coincidences, um,
rather than any kind of real planning.
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:But, um, one of my, uh, good friends
and ex boss is Mike Pondsmith of
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:RTalsorian Games was up, um, in Seattle
working at Monolith on Matrix Online.
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:And I happened to be popping up to Seattle
for a vacation, got in touch with Mike.
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:I hadn't seen him for a little while,
and Mike said in his mysterious way,
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:Hey, we were just talking about you.
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:We should chat.
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:Um, and so my vacation kind of
turned into a job interview because,
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:um, Monolith was also going to be
doing the DC Comics online game.
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:Okay.
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:And, um, Mike had been out with the
lead designer of that game, Jeff
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:Zatkin, and I'm sorry, who's Mike?
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:He's the creator of Cyberpunk
:
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:called Artalsorian Games.
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:He also worked for Microsoft,
where he worked on Crimson Skies
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:and a number of other titles.
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:Um, he worked on The Matrix Online.
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:That's a great game.
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:Crimson Skies is a classic.
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:He is an amazingly, amazingly talented,
um, designer, and I learned so much when
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:I was working with him at Art Talsorian.
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:Anyway, Jeff Zatkin, who is one
of the old EverQuest designers.
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:Who would then later on to go be
one of the co founders of EDAR, if
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:you're familiar with, uh, with EDAR
now has a VR startup, Experiment 7.
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:Anyway, yeah.
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:EDAR does like, um, metrics and
sales data and stuff like that.
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:Right, right.
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:They, they kind of could Breakdown a
game's performance and match against
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:Metacritic and other scores and companies
consult with them about feature sets
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:and, you know, potentially how this game
will do in the market and whatnot, right?
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:Yeah, I think they sold last year,
um, to another data analytics company.
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:Jeff was an old champions player
and said, Hey, I want one of the,
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:I need one of those champions guys.
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:And Mike.
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:He said, I know exactly who
you, um, should talk to.
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:He used to work for me and I
literally called Mike the next day.
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:Long story short, I ended up at
Monolith working on the Matrix online.
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:Um, and this was my first house,
first in house development
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:job, um, on a, uh, PC game.
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:Um, as, as opposed to
I'm so sorry for you.
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:It was a great experience.
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:Um, it was a learning experience.
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:And one of the great takeaways from
it was that a team of really smart,
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:Intelligent people can make a crappy game.
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:Yeah.
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:Well, I was just kidding about
being sorry for you, of course.
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:But, um, but sometimes,
sometimes that's that sentence.
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:The next sentence is, is, you
know, about a death March, right?
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:Oh, you know, it was game development.
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:We had our, our, our, our
period of crunch ostensibly.
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:They hired me DC game.
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:And the thought was Matrix was going
to launch in a couple of months.
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:I would work on that for a couple of
months to learn the technology, which
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:was shared with, with the DC game.
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:And then roll on to DC.
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:Of course, that couple of months
stretched out to almost two years.
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:And I got to do a lot of
great stuff, um, on that game,
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:probably more than I should have.
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:Um, but I, like I said, I got a
chance to work with some great people.
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:Toby was the lead designer
on Asheron's Call.
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:Wow.
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:Wow.
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:Very interesting.
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:Some very interesting
designs in that game.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:And just a really great outside
of the box, um, design thinker.
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:I'm a super great guy.
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:Um, and again, someone
I learned a lot from.
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:Um, you know, Matrix had a number of
failings, some in the design, some
318
:in the production, some in the fact
that we came out, um, about the time
319
:that World of Warcraft launched.
320
:Um What about on the licensing side?
321
:Did that present challenges?
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:Because it certainly could, especially
on a game that big and that live.
323
:There were some, um, I, from what I
understand, licensing challenges that
324
:was, uh, above my pay grade at that point.
325
:So I didn't have to deal with it.
326
:There were some interesting, um, things
like, I think they found out, um, maybe
327
:a couple of years into the project,
um, when the art director was showing
328
:some stuff and the Wachowski said,
you know, those look great, but you
329
:know, there's no blue in the matrix.
330
:It's like, well, and it's true.
331
:If you look at the movies, it's all green,
it's all green until whatever happens.
332
:And there's, uh, the clear sky, um,
in the third movie, I think it is.
333
:Um, so yeah, that, that apparently
required a lot of, um, rejiggering, um,
334
:on the art of the game and gave it kind of
a very green and, and what year is this?
335
:That was 2003.
336
:I was there 2003.
337
:Very end of 2003 to 2005.
338
:I'm curious how it lines up with, 'cause
I've always been blown away with that.
339
:Have you ever seen the Matrix game
that has that, that totally insane
340
:nonsense ending where the Wachowski
brothers are like sitting in a
341
:chair and talking about stories.
342
:So I enter the matrix.
343
:It's Path of Neo.
344
:Oh, Path of Neo, yeah.
345
:Yeah, yeah.
346
:And it's just this crazy thing,
um, that totally, I, I mean, I,
347
:I didn't play it at the time.
348
:I saw it years later, you know,
on an article or something.
349
:But, um, I just curious, cause if I, I
know if I was working on a matrix game
350
:and I saw that my head would explode.
351
:Yeah.
352
:We, um, we didn't have a
lot of interaction in the
353
:studio with the Wachowskis.
354
:Um, uh, we mostly worked, um, with a
writer that they designated, um, whose
355
:name I'm spacing on Paul Chadwick, I
think, like again, super nice guy, um, uh,
356
:very creative, but, uh, not a game writer.
357
:And so we would need to take
what paul was doing and translate
358
:it over to game stories.
359
:But mostly I was working
on systems on that game.
360
:So I was working on ability
systems and the crafting system
361
:and the itemization system.
362
:We were a little under
designered on that game.
363
:As you might tell by everything
that was on my plate there.
364
:I like that, under designered.
365
:Another lesson to take
away from that project.
366
:But we launched, which
I think was a success.
367
:And the game was not.
368
:Um, it certainly did not meet
expectations and, uh, there was a
369
:layoff in there that those happened
quite often, um, in the game industry.
370
:And, uh, so I went to LucasArts after
that, um, got to work with a couple
371
:of my, um, Matrix Online coworkers.
372
:We were working on an
Indiana Jones console game.
373
:Um, we were in pre production
on that game my entire two
374
:and a half years at LucasArts.
375
:I remember that.
376
:I don't remember what it was
called, but I do remember that game.
377
:We never announced the title for
the, uh, next gen version, which is
378
:what we were doing in house, but I
think a DS, PlayStation Portable, or
379
:Game Boy version came out that was
Indiana Jones and the Staff of Kings.
380
:But yeah, we made a big splash at
E3, um, With the cable car chase,
381
:and then, um, I think showing off,
um, some of Natural Emotions, uh,
382
:Euphoria technology and the hit
reactions and, uh, and stuff with that.
383
:But, uh, it was, um, an interesting and
kind of another problematical project.
384
:Um, and that from there, uh, I
actually moved back towards live
385
:games when I joined, um, the
City of Heroes team at NCSoft.
386
:Which later became Paragon Studios.
387
:There, I joined as a senior mission
writer, creating mission content.
388
:Which I did for about six months,
and then I stepped up to be lead
389
:designer of the live project.
390
:Uh, and that was great.
391
:That was a fantastic
team, fantastic project.
392
:It was a superhero game.
393
:The best fan base ever.
394
:Those players were so awesome and
so loyal and so knew the lore better
395
:than I think anyone at the company.
396
:Um, and they were just
a joy to create for.
397
:And that game was around
for a long time, right?
398
:It really kind of stood the test of time.
399
:I think it lasted seven years
before NCSoft shut it down.
400
:And it probably could have kept going.
401
:Um I think it was still
making some money on that.
402
:They had converted over to a free to play
model, um, and this was after I had left.
403
:And that must have been a bit of a
relief from these projects that were,
404
:you know, development for all this time
to like a live game, it's already out,
405
:and you know that what you're working
on is going to be seen, going to get
406
:played, and going to get enjoyed.
407
:Right.
408
:I mean, within the first couple
weeks of me, um, joining there, I
409
:got to do some content that came out.
410
:You know, just a couple months later,
which was considered fast in those
411
:days, um, for, for a PC game, um,
which I thought was great because I
412
:got to see how the players reacted to
what I was creating and it helped me.
413
:Know what to pay attention to and how to
create better stuff, um, for the players
414
:desires, um, on there, got to work on
some good, uh, game systems with them on,
415
:uh, you know, the, we worked on a boxed
expansion going rogue while I was there.
416
:Um, and this was in, um,
:
417
:Something very strange started to
happen, um, these Facebook games were
418
:coming along and, uh, blowing up, and
this little game called Farmville was
419
:getting millions of players a day.
420
:I heard of that.
421
:Yeah, yeah, and, um, one of my ex
LucasArts, uh, coworkers, Bill Mooney,
422
:Um, who I was playing D and D with,
uh, had taken over as, um, general
423
:manager of FarmVille and after I spent
one evening complaining about the
424
:crop balance, um, in the crop ramp
in FarmVille, he recruited me over to
425
:join, um, Zingo to work on FarmVille.
426
:So, uh, I did that at the end of 2009
and that was a crazy, crazy time.
427
:Yeah.
428
:That's where met.
429
:Exactly.
430
:Exactly.
431
:You know.
432
:Zynga in those days, man,
it was the wild west.
433
:Um, their Farmville had little process.
434
:Um, when I joined it, it was
pretty much possible to come
435
:up with an idea on a Monday and
have it in the game by Thursday.
436
:Um, I mean, just.
437
:Insane and as the time went by and
have that idea played by, you know,
438
:20 million people by Friday and we
were enjoying the same crazy growth.
439
:Um, I mean, I think when I joined,
it was about 18, 20 million people.
440
:I think we peaked in
March at about 32 million.
441
:That's daily players, not monthly
or lifetime or anything like that.
442
:Um, so just, it was finally,
I mean, it's, it's insane.
443
:It's absolutely unheard of a chance
to reach, um, the mass market.
444
:Um, and that's where I fell in love with
free to play game design and where I kind
445
:of fell in love with, uh, casual game.
446
:Um, design and certainly a fast-paced
live game, live ops, um, environment.
447
:Um, and I was at Zynga all told, um, for
four and a half years working on Farmville
448
:as a senior designer and lead designer.
449
:Um, working on CastleVille as a senior
designer and lead, and um, lead designer.
450
:I think I did some time
on, um, Sheffield as well.
451
:Um, all those great invest in
express, um, style games and, um,
452
:uh, that came to an end in, uh, 2014.
453
:And I, uh, took a flyer on going
over to, um, Germany, uh, to a
454
:company called big point, uh, to
help them work on mobile games.
455
:And I did that for about seven months.
456
:Um, and came back here, um, joining Sega
Networks in their Three Rings studio.
457
:Three Rings, uh, people might recall
Puzzle Pirates, which was, I think Three
458
:Rings is, uh, uh, greatest, um, creation,
um, back in the day, which was a web based
459
:game, but Sega Networks had bought them
and, um, was doing mobile games with them.
460
:And we were working on a lane battler
that, uh, based off the Spiral Knights
461
:game that Three Rings had done.
462
:And you kind of brought your
LiveOps experiences from Zynga.
463
:From, and really from what you
had done even way back at Heroes
464
:in some sense to Big Point and
presumably to some other companies.
465
:Yeah, interestingly though, I was working
more on live games when I did that.
466
:It was a chance to go back, I mean
live games, I'm sorry, on new games.
467
:Um, a chance to go back and work
on some, um, some new games.
468
:I think, I kind of think if you've
done live stuff, you really want to,
469
:uh, do some games from the ground up.
470
:Because now you know all this stuff
that's going to happen in those
471
:games and you want to make sure.
472
:To like prepare the teams beforehand,
you know what I mean, right?
473
:You want to say, Hey, why aren't
we paying attention to what we're
474
:going to do the week after we launch
in the month after we launch in
475
:the three months after we launch?
476
:And how are we going to
be keeping content going?
477
:What kind of evergreen systems do we have?
478
:Um, all those types of things when
you're working on the new games.
479
:Why aren't we paying attention
to our operations before we
480
:even know what kind of game?
481
:So let's let's talk about that a
little bit, the kind of live ops and
482
:how to prepare a game for live ops.
483
:Like, imagine, you know, there's someone
listening who's got a game coming
484
:out, mobile, um, PC, but it's kind
of a live, maybe free to play game.
485
:What kinds of stuff should
they be thinking about?
486
:First of all, the amount of
content they're launching with.
487
:There was an old rule of thumb.
488
:In the, uh, MMORPG space that
said the players will consume the
489
:content twice as fast as you think
they will, um, and this was true.
490
:Even if you accounted for that, um,
players will consume your content
491
:as quickly as they possibly can much
more quickly than you think they can.
492
:This is magnified by
the free to play model.
493
:Where players have ways to accelerate the
process through the game, um, in return
494
:for premium currency, um, a lot of times.
495
:So, you want to make sure that you
have, um, enough content, that there's
496
:some repeatable content, that there
are evergreen systems in there.
497
:Um, that will continue to spin and provide
a baseline of activity even without
498
:you needing to release, um, any new
features after the game has gone live.
499
:Now, PvP style games, uh, competitive
games are fantastic for this
500
:because, in effect, the players
are creating their own content.
501
:If I'm playing, um, a game of
war, the, my evergreen content are
502
:the other players there that I'm
attacking or that are attacking me.
503
:And that's that that struggle for power.
504
:But if you're a more casual game, if
you're a bubble popper or a match three
505
:or a farming game or something like
that, um, eventually your players are
506
:going to get to the end of the levels
that you have crafted or maxed out
507
:their farm and their crops or whatever.
508
:And it becomes a question
of what do they do then?
509
:How are we going to Continue to
support this game, this game design
510
:while it's live and introduce
new things for the players to
511
:do in extend the content, right?
512
:And also, what's the what's the
cost of making that content, right?
513
:Like, can you get it done on time
and on a budget that actually makes
514
:sense to continue with this product?
515
:Exactly, and I think Zynga, at Zynga,
we were kind of always trapped by
516
:what we called the, the, uh, cadence
treadmill, um, that we needed to put
517
:out a certain amount of content to
keep our players engaged every week,
518
:um, and it was just this, uh, like
running fast, but just to stay in place.
519
:And as your game got older, Yeah, but
if staying in place is like, you know, a
520
:million dollars a day, That's fantastic.
521
:You know, it's a pretty
good place to stay.
522
:But, and you can afford a big
team when you're doing that.
523
:When you're, you know, generating, yeah,
a million dollars a day, or a hundred
524
:million dollars a quarter or whatever.
525
:There comes a time where you need
to be doing more and more and more
526
:content in order to keep the players
who are remaining in your game engaged
527
:and they get faster and faster and
faster at completing this stuff
528
:and your treadmill is speeding up
and speeding up and speeding up and
529
:eventually it comes to a point where
it's probably not cost effective and
530
:that's when you end up sunsetting a
game or offshoring it or And that's
531
:when you The mythical man month, right?
532
:So it gets more, it doesn't, the, the cost
of a bigger team doesn't scale linearly.
533
:You don't, you don't start making an
equivalent amount of content just because
534
:you add twice as many people to a team.
535
:Exactly.
536
:And there's a cost in talent as well.
537
:A people get bored doing the
same thing over and over again,
538
:but these people are exhausted.
539
:Exhausted people who are working on
these successful games, um, they're
540
:developing this incredible skill set
and that skill set is transportable
541
:to the other games at your company.
542
:And so you, you want these people
to be able to move on and, you know,
543
:probably move up to better roles and, um.
544
:Bring, um, these lessons, uh, that
they've learned to your other games.
545
:And so, these experienced creators
are moving off and you're needing to
546
:train up and mentor, uh, new creators,
uh, in this who maybe aren't as
547
:fast, um, at, at doing this stuff.
548
:And so, you know, things
start to take longer.
549
:The, the upside of that is that
you're bringing in people with new
550
:ideas and, and kind of fresh eyes.
551
:The downside is that you're
moving out the experience.
552
:Well, and I think something that we
saw at Zynga is you're kind of training
553
:everyone that leaving a project is,
is success and staying with a project
554
:for a long time is like not as good.
555
:Uh, that, that's a, that's a
challenging precedent long term.
556
:Yeah, I, I think everybody feels like
they want to create the new thing and they
557
:don't understand that if you're on a live
game, you're creating the new thing Every
558
:week or every month, um, on, uh, you know,
like when we were on Castleville, we got
559
:a chance to introduce new stories and new
systems and new features every six weeks,
560
:you know, for each of the designers, um,
on that game, and that's a chance to not
561
:spend three years working on a new game
or 18 months, um, working on a new game,
562
:but just to spend, you know, half of a
quarter working on a major feature, um,
563
:That you then get to see in the game,
you get to see how the players react
564
:to it, you get to see how successful it
is, how to learn from it, um, and how to
565
:make yourself a better designer for the
next time that, that you move things.
566
:It's, it's incredibly, um, educational.
567
:Yeah.
568
:Yeah.
569
:I mean, the amount that I
learned at Zynga is very high.
570
:It was an, it was an extreme
educational experience.
571
:That's that's for sure.
572
:But you know, at the same time, all
this thing with people, you know, kind
573
:of, kind of moving on all the time.
574
:And especially a lot of leads constantly
moving, moving to new projects.
575
:It's sort of like, If you gave someone
a plot of land to farm and you said,
576
:your goal is to farm as much fruit from
this as possible, but only for a month.
577
:And then it's going to be
someone else's problem.
578
:Are they going to take care of that land?
579
:Yeah.
580
:Are they going to pay attention
to crop rotation, uh, et cetera.
581
:And it's the same thing.
582
:If you have a bunch of highly motivated
and talented, uh, product managers
583
:and, um, producers and general managers
and designers, and your goal is.
584
:You need to make as
much money as possible.
585
:Um, you need to hit your,
your revenue targets.
586
:Um, and you know that you're going to be
moving on in three months or six months
587
:to another project or another game.
588
:Are you paying attention to the other
indicators, um, of your game's health, uh,
589
:to your, your retention and your longterm
retention and, um, trying to, to stem
590
:off, uh, A live game's inevitable decline.
591
:And obviously, you know, Zynga's,
look, they've paid the price.
592
:One of the big learnings you brought
is, hey, we have to prepare while making
593
:the game for what it's going to be like
to produce content in an ongoing basis.
594
:What, what kinds of systems have you found
to be really helpful for, for doing that?
595
:Um, so that will vary from game to game.
596
:You need, you want to look at things that
are going to run without the need for
597
:you to put any kind of content in there.
598
:So, um, the traditional things, um,
are So PVP is one thing you mentioned.
599
:PVP, but that doesn't work in every game.
600
:But leaderboards, um, that type
of weekly contest, that type of
601
:thing, work in a lot of games.
602
:Mm hmm.
603
:And, uh, those types of
things are very useful.
604
:Leaderboards is almost like the
lightest form of PvP you can do, right?
605
:Exactly.
606
:Friendly competitions, who
could be the most helpful, are,
607
:I think, useful in games that
appeal to a more casual audience.
608
:Along that, those lines.
609
:Collections.
610
:Are good, you know, and they've been
even good on console games, um, to
611
:a great extent 100 percent on the
Xbox or the PlayStation, right?
612
:Getting all the trophies, all the
achievements, that's kind of a collection,
613
:um, long term grind for those games.
614
:And it keeps people engaged hopefully
long enough so that when the downloadable
615
:content comes out, oh, they're still
around and then they buy that and
616
:there's some more achievements to
get from that and You know, keep them
617
:engaged for the lifespan of the game.
618
:And I think the same works
on these mobile games.
619
:Um, and on, uh, you know, the, the
web games and that type of stuff.
620
:The collection instinct within us
is very strong and that works well.
621
:Which is why listeners need to listen to
every episode of the PlayMakers podcast.
622
:To sort of collect them all.
623
:Yes.
624
:You also want to design, pay attention
to how you design your content tools.
625
:So that it is easy to put in new content.
626
:And that content can be put in with
a minimum of programmer intervention.
627
:Looking at systems that you're going
to repeat and templatizing them.
628
:So that, um, You don't need to do any
programming, you, you, the designer or
629
:the content implementer could just fill,
you know, fill out the template, change
630
:what they need to change and get something
that looks, with new art, you know, but
631
:still has the same underlying systems.
632
:That's a really good point because if
you need to apply your engineering,
633
:Resources to just maintaining content,
then how are you going to apply them
634
:to the new stuff, the new features
that you want to have in addition
635
:to just additional content, right?
636
:Or the big unspoken thing about live ops,
the tech debt that you're accumulating
637
:every time you're adding something.
638
:And, you know, you need to make sure
that you, some of your engineers
639
:are there to keep your code base
stable and your thing optimized.
640
:Um, one of the problems we ran into
FarmVille was that as players got
641
:more and more stuff on their farm,
the performance started to choke.
642
:It was flash based and it was terrible.
643
:But expanding the farm was a great thing.
644
:Driver of revenue.
645
:And there was this constant battle
between our operations pod that would
646
:find optimizations, um, to make the game
run better and was like, okay, great.
647
:Thanks for running.
648
:Fantastic.
649
:Oh, good.
650
:Does that mean that we could
do another farm expansion?
651
:I guess so.
652
:Um, and there was this constant cycle.
653
:I think the same thing was happening
with just the team sizes, you know, like
654
:hundreds of people, you know, expanding
the size of the team also helps, helps
655
:you develop more, but, but whatever kind
of procedural debt you have As a, as
656
:a studio is also going to be impacted,
compounded, really, every time you grow.
657
:Yeah, I think tools are very important.
658
:I think it's something that most games
don't pay enough attention to until
659
:far too late in the, uh, the process.
660
:And it's wonderful when you could
get something implemented and
661
:suddenly what used to take you 10
hours is taking you two hours to do.
662
:That means you could probably still
do that level of content creation.
663
:And go on to think of what's the next
thing I want to add because no, none of
664
:these mobile games are ever released.
665
:None of these Facebook games.
666
:No game really, I think,
has ever released complete.
667
:It's always a question of,
uh, we've got to release it.
668
:What are we going to scope?
669
:Uh, what do we think we're
going to add in later?
670
:And if you're good, you preparing
that road map post launch that
671
:says, okay, two months, Okay.
672
:Later, we're going to have this feature
that we, we had to scope three months
673
:after launch, there's this other feature
in that you've got some kind of plan
674
:cadence, so you aren't scrambling, um,
trying to think, Oh God, the game's
675
:launched, everything's doing great.
676
:We're running out of content.
677
:We need to do something Jordan go, which
is the way a lot of live ops seems to run.
678
:And I think, you know, a lot of
people still, still think like,
679
:Hey, free to play, you know, anyone
can get on the app store and anyone
680
:can make a game free to download.
681
:But the reality is all these bits
and bobs that we're talking about,
682
:make, make free to play actually
have a pretty high barrier to
683
:entry to come in and be successful.
684
:You, you need to play a
pretty high level game.
685
:You need to be thinking about the future.
686
:You need to be thinking
about your processes.
687
:You need to be ready for a big, long haul.
688
:Yeah, they used to say a lot about
making MMOs that they weren't,
689
:not a sprint, it was a marathon.
690
:But it's not really a marathon
because just crossing the finish
691
:line doesn't finish the race.
692
:That kind of starts it, right?
693
:Uh, you know, that's just
your first milestone.
694
:And after that you need to maintain it.
695
:Um, and, uh, you needed to keep going.
696
:Um, and you, you, you
definitely want those roadmaps.
697
:You want to balance your features
much like I had to balance the books.
698
:Um, the types of books that I was putting
out when I was managing the champions
699
:game line, you want to manage your types
of features, um, that you're putting out
700
:so that they aren't all the same type.
701
:The features you're putting out generally
are designed to, uh, enhance your revenue
702
:or enhance your retention or to provide
some kind of player joy or satisfaction.
703
:And if you have a quarter where you've
done nothing but hard revenue, um,
704
:features or grinds, um, for the players,
then you're probably going to really
705
:suffer in your retention metrics.
706
:If you, you just are concentrating on
retention, you may well suffer on revenue.
707
:Although there is something to be
said that Retention will lead to
708
:revenue, um, over the long run, but
you still need those revenue features.
709
:That's, I would just point out, there's
a fractal kind of nature to that
710
:where then within retention or within
monetization, you have the same issue.
711
:If you, if you try to monetize the
same way over and over again, that's
712
:going to have diminishing payoff.
713
:If you try to retain with the same, you
know, surprise and delight features,
714
:then the surprise and delight is
going to be less and less each time.
715
:So you have to constantly be
pushing yourself to do new things.
716
:Right, and these new things happen
and they work and then you probably
717
:repeat them a while later and they
work and then maybe they become
718
:part of your content cadence.
719
:Where you rotate them in
with your other features.
720
:So, um, you have a longer period
between, um, features to keep them fresh.
721
:And it also turns out that stuff
that was, that was old reliable.
722
:Oh, this feature is fantastic.
723
:And it's always does great for
us, um, in revenue and retention.
724
:And we could do it about every four weeks.
725
:It starts to lose effectiveness.
726
:And it's like, okay, so maybe now
we're doing them every six weeks.
727
:Maybe we need to do them every two months.
728
:Maybe we just need to retire
that feature type for a while.
729
:Um, and so hopefully you're coming up
with these new features that you're
730
:trying out and the ones that work are
slotting into that cadence rotation.
731
:Just try to keep it all
fresh for the players.
732
:Let's talk a little bit about
the kind of cadence calendar.
733
:Do you have a system that you've
used at several companies?
734
:Like, Hey, I like to.
735
:Make a spreadsheet that
kind of works like this.
736
:Here's how I think about what
should be in development.
737
:What's coming up in
two months, six months.
738
:How do you kind of manage that?
739
:So that's very interesting because
mostly it's a collaborative process.
740
:It's not just, um, the designer,
um, sitting down and thinking of it.
741
:It's probably, um, somebody who's
running the business side and that
742
:might be a producer at a company or a
product manager, sometimes a designer.
743
:But, but who's ever in charge of that,
the design lead sitting down and saying,
744
:okay, we need to plan out what our.
745
:Quarterly calendar looks
like we would do that.
746
:Maybe a month before the previous
quarter expired or six weeks, you
747
:know, halfway through a quarter.
748
:What let's look at the next quarter.
749
:What do we want to do?
750
:What kind of features do we want to be?
751
:And there are a number of ways to come
up with the features idea, but you might
752
:have a basket of those or you might
just say, okay, we really want to need
753
:to concentrate on revenue this quarter.
754
:So about 60 percent of what we're
going to do is going to be revenue
755
:features, about 35 percent of them.
756
:40 percent of them are going to be
more aimed towards retention, and
757
:we'll do 10 percent user love, because
user love doesn't really make us
758
:money or, you know, move the metrics
that, that, that, that we can measure.
759
:Um, and then you try to pace
them out on the calendar.
760
:So again, you aren't slamming
people with similar things in a
761
:row so that things feel fresh.
762
:When you're looking at kind of a longer
term, you're kind of looking each quarter,
763
:let's say, and say, what's our big new
innovative thing going to be this quarter?
764
:Where are we going to invest a
lot of our risk in dev dollars?
765
:What do we want to do?
766
:And, uh, yeah, I wanted to try to
avoid that, but we're publishing a
767
:bold beat and that hopefully would
lead to a golden mechanic, which is
768
:something that could be repeatable.
769
:Um, both in your game and then maybe
also in other games, um, in your company
770
:and you want to slot those in too and
make sure that those are well staffed
771
:and well funded, uh, and you know when
they're going to come out and if they're
772
:risky, you want to make sure that you have
support features around them that kind of
773
:bolster the areas in which they're risky.
774
:So if they don't work, you're not
completely missing your target numbers
775
:because there's nothing worse for a live
game than to miss its target numbers.
776
:The executives start to get very nervous.
777
:And yet the best you can really
do is hit your target numbers.
778
:Yeah.
779
:You can exceed them and then
they get really nervous.
780
:Yeah.
781
:You can, you can exceed them.
782
:And then, and then that's
your new target numbers.
783
:Yeah, exactly.
784
:It, um, it, you get a pat on the
back and then the next quarter you,
785
:you have, you know, um, big KPIs to,
uh, to try to meet because of that.
786
:So, okay.
787
:So what about.
788
:You're talking about, you kind of
create this plan right in advance,
789
:but no, no plan survives contact
with the, the users of the game.
790
:Right.
791
:And so presumably, you know, something
you want to do doesn't work, something you
792
:didn't expect to work works really well.
793
:And now suddenly you've got to
make some, some adjustments, right?
794
:Pivots, right?
795
:It's all about pivoting.
796
:Like I think a couple of shows ago, Mike
was talking about pivoting and design.
797
:Um, as stuff comes up, you
need to pivot in your ops.
798
:Um, that's episode two with Mike Micah.
799
:Right.
800
:An excellent episode.
801
:You need to pivot in your
live ops plan as well.
802
:Um, it could be, uh, God forbid,
uh, one of the, the, the, your
803
:architect, uh, has a motorcycle
accident and breaks their coating arm.
804
:And, uh, suddenly you're,
you're going to be two or three
805
:months behind on the project.
806
:Has that happened to you?
807
:That actually happened to us on Matrix
online, uh, in the middle of crunch, uh,
808
:on our one day off, one of our senior,
uh, Guys did that and it was interesting
809
:for a while or it could be that your
revenues are falling or your attention is
810
:following some other key metric is falling
here and you need to divert some of your
811
:development efforts to investigate and try
to plug those holes or it could be that.
812
:Your big bull beat is taking
longer, just longer to do.
813
:It's not working.
814
:Um, sometimes you look at it, you know,
three weeks into into when it started to
815
:develop for two weeks in and said, yeah,
this, this isn't going to work the way
816
:that we thought it was going to work.
817
:We need to go back to the drawing board
and we need to throw the towel in on it.
818
:And then hopefully you've got
backup stuff that you could slot
819
:in, um, to those release dates.
820
:As you scramble around, it's, uh,
if you've, uh, ever watched, uh, any
821
:television shows about the production
of sketch comedy shows or new shows or
822
:whatever, and they have the big board
with, with all the, um, segments on
823
:there and, and they need to scramble them
around to, to see what's going to fill.
824
:It's the same kind of thing, but, uh,
not to fill an hour's worth of content,
825
:but to fill a quarter's worth of, uh,
Of content on there on Frontierville.
826
:I used to have basically a room full
of post it notes, like hundreds.
827
:Yeah.
828
:And sometimes they would want them out
of the room and I would just take all the
829
:post it notes and stick them in a drawer.
830
:And then when it was free and I just
put them back up, it is a luxury to have
831
:a dedicated war room for a live game.
832
:And it's a really or a war area if
you can't afford a room, but where
833
:you can keep that stuff up there.
834
:Where, uh, you could have your post
it notes of your stuff that's in
835
:development, and your ideas, and, and,
and everything, and just, um, be it a
836
:whiteboard, be it, uh, whatever, a place
where you could go and take a look,
837
:where, uh, the execs could go and take
a look and just give you that snapshot.
838
:Of what's going on, but also that
working surface for when you need
839
:to rejigger things, it's there and
it's live for you to move around.
840
:So, Bruce, now, as you're kind of, you
know, doing this and you're working on
841
:this calendar, you're getting feedback
from the audience about what works.
842
:How do you design for them?
843
:How do you kind of understand the audience
and do stuff that they're going to
844
:love, that they're going to respond to?
845
:You're going to have a lot of tools at
your disposal, probably at your company.
846
:There's fan forums, official forums.
847
:Hopefully you have some kind of,
um, community manager, uh, working
848
:there that's bubbling up data,
possibly, um, you know, verbatim
849
:from player forums and whatnot.
850
:But the most important thing you
could do is play the game and
851
:play the game without using any
of your advantages as a developer.
852
:So don't give yourself a bunch of free
premium currency or advance yourself.
853
:Try to make sure that you have
an account where you're playing
854
:like a legitimate player and
that you play that one every day.
855
:Um, and get passionate about your game.
856
:A lot of times in the game industry,
you're not fortunate enough to
857
:work on a game that you would
play, um, in your leisure time.
858
:That, uh, you may be a big Call
of Duty fan, but you'll never work
859
:on a first person shooter type.
860
:Um, and instead you're
working on a match three game.
861
:Become a match three fan.
862
:You need to.
863
:You need to have, as a designer,
a passion for that game.
864
:Um, and get to know your audience,
really get to know your audience.
865
:Um, so, you know, what's
appropriate for them.
866
:I think one of the big problems that,
um, the less experienced, the newer
867
:designers have is that they'll come
in and they're full of great passion
868
:and great ideas, but they're not
thinking about the target audience.
869
:So they'll come up with these ideas that
would work great amongst their peer group,
870
:these ideas for features, these complex
systems, and these things that would be
871
:perfect for them or their friends, but
not necessarily for, say, the 45 year old
872
:woman or the 50 year old man who's playing
that game that is not a hardcore gamer.
873
:So you really need to learn
your audience and make sure
874
:that you're designing for them.
875
:So if I'm understanding you
correctly, your, your point is,
876
:Hey, there's, there's this, uh,
there's this young game designer.
877
:He's like, I wouldn't play this
game, but here's the features
878
:that I would like in it.
879
:And you can see there's something
mismatched there, like, you have to
880
:get into the mind of the person who
would play the game and then design
881
:the features that that person wants.
882
:Right, like on FarmVille there was
a running joke about doing a tractor
883
:jousting thing and we all thought that was
cool and whatnot, but it probably would
884
:not have played to our target demographic.
885
:A lot of times during our brainstorms
we'll be planning out our quest, um,
886
:theme calendar, a lot of the subjects
that would, themes that were suggested
887
:would be, That's interesting, but I
don't think that our audience really
888
:cares about a Farmville questline that
celebrates Harry Houdini's birthday.
889
:You really want to find things
that are more on point and more in
890
:line with what your audience wants.
891
:Absolutely.
892
:Well, thank you for giving the audience
of PlayMakers so much to think about today
893
:in terms of live ops and free to play.
894
:Thank you very much for having me, Jordan.
895
:It was a real pleasure.
896
:It's a great show.
897
:I'm really enjoying it.
898
:Big ups to Bruce for coming on the show
and sharing so much of his experience
899
:and knowledge with our community.
900
:If you enjoyed it, then, uh, then you're
gonna want to see what's coming next
901
:because we got interviews coming that
are fresh, that are gonna be amazing.
902
:I don't want to give anything away right
now, but I have a very, very special guest
903
:coming up, possibly in the next episode,
certainly the next one or two episodes,
904
:and, uh, I know you're gonna love it.
905
:He's a legend, some might say a god,
possibly a god, possibly a legend,
906
:possibly I'm just making this up.
907
:You don't know and you won't
know unless you subscribe.
908
:To see what is coming up And I want
to say something else, which is this
909
:You've made it to the end of the
episode that makes you special That
910
:makes you part of the inner circle.
911
:This is the end of episode inner circle
area And you're here you made it here
912
:and you didn't even know it was here
And you got here which shows me that
913
:you truly belong to the end of the
episode inner circle club This is a club
914
:that holds its meetings at the end of
episodes of playmakers And, you know,
915
:we talk about things relevant to us as
a group, kind of our inner circle stuff.
916
:Right now, the agenda for this week's
kind of session is the announcement
917
:of the club, which we've done.
918
:So, I think we can strike the
gavel and call this one over.
919
:I will see you in the next episode of
Playmakers and then in the post episode
920
:session of the Inner Circle Club.
921
:Until then, I bid you adieu.
922
:Stay playful, my friends.