Slingin’ it: Sling TV & Dish Network’s Jinx Joglekar

John: 00:00:05

John, welcome back.

2

: 00:00:07

I know already.

3

: 00:00:08

Look at us.

4

: 00:00:09

Call it a trend.

5

: 00:00:10

Brian: We're really doing it again

6

: 00:00:12

John: without a big gap back.

7

: 00:00:14

Brian: Yeah.

8

: 00:00:15

Well we have a great episode today.

9

: 00:00:17

Really looking forward to talking to our

guests, who I, I feel like a lot of people

10

: 00:00:20

relate to and want to hear more about.

11

: 00:00:23

But before we get started on that I

wanted to ask you your thoughts on

12

: 00:00:27

the demise of The Tupperware brand.

13

: 00:00:30

John: Ah, yes.

14

: 00:00:32

The long tenured Tupperware brand.

15

: 00:00:34

Brian: Yes.

16

: 00:00:35

Tupperware , has gone bankrupt.

17

: 00:00:37

And yeah, there's a number

of reasons for that.

18

: 00:00:39

According to what I'm reading one of which

is their reliance on, Direct sales up

19

: 00:00:44

until the last couple of years where they

finally started an e commerce program.

20

: 00:00:49

Yeah, I saw

21

: 00:00:49

John: that.

22

: 00:00:49

I didn't realize that, I didn't realize

they were solely door to door, you know,

23

: 00:00:53

through, through Tupperware parties

and up until like: 2019

24

: 00:00:58

Brian: 2020, yeah.

25

: 00:00:59

2020, yeah.

26

: 00:00:59

Which is Wild crazy.

27

: 00:01:04

I mean, talk about like, not trying

to pivot and just staying with

28

: 00:01:07

what they got until it goes down.

29

: 00:01:09

But, fascinating stuff.

30

: 00:01:11

What really I found interesting

is, the conversation around, brands

31

: 00:01:15

like Tupperware that actually

become the names of the categories.

32

: 00:01:19

John: Oh yeah.

33

: 00:01:19

When they get, genericized.

34

: 00:01:20

Yeah.

35

: 00:01:21

Brian: Yeah.

36

: 00:01:22

And, what are your thoughts on that?

37

: 00:01:24

John: I read an article about that and

I thought it was really interesting.

38

: 00:01:27

They called it out that some of the

savvier brands go way out of their

39

: 00:01:31

way to make sure not to use their

words, their brand names as no.

40

: 00:01:37

Right?

41

: 00:01:38

Yeah.

42

: 00:01:38

So it's Kleenex tissue.

43

: 00:01:41

Brian: Yeah.

44

: 00:01:42

John: It's a Q tip cotton swab.

45

: 00:01:44

They don't genericize it themselves.

46

: 00:01:46

And I was amazed to read that

both Google and is it Kimberly

47

: 00:01:50

Clark that owns Kleenex?

48

: 00:01:53

That they both have actually

engaged in legal battles to keep

49

: 00:01:56

their, their brands out of the

dictionary for that very reason.

50

: 00:02:02

Brian: That's amazing.

51

: 00:02:03

Good luck with that though.

52

: 00:02:04

I mean, yeah,

53

: 00:02:06

John: yeah.

54

: 00:02:06

I

55

: 00:02:06

Brian: The Q-tip one who calls

that anything else other than that?

56

: 00:02:09

John: And who searches on

anything besides Google?

57

: 00:02:11

Brian: Yeah.

58

: 00:02:12

Yeah.

59

: 00:02:13

So, I found some really interesting

other brand names that have become

60

: 00:02:18

the category name over the years.

61

: 00:02:20

So I thought I'd share

some and let's hear it.

62

: 00:02:22

Yeah.

63

: 00:02:22

So a Ziploc chapstick.

64

: 00:02:27

John: Oh,

65

: 00:02:27

Brian: people,

66

: 00:02:28

John: people use chapstick generically.

67

: 00:02:30

I don't think I was aware of that.

68

: 00:02:32

Brian: Really?

69

: 00:02:33

What I guess

70

: 00:02:33

John: I don't walk around saying,

can you hand me some lip balm?

71

: 00:02:36

I usually put me.

72

: 00:02:36

Don't say that.

73

: 00:02:37

Brian: No, they don't.

74

: 00:02:38

Bandaid

75

: 00:02:39

John: bandaid, classic

76

: 00:02:41

Brian: jacuzzi.

77

: 00:02:42

I guess a lot of people still

use hot tub, but there, there's a

78

: 00:02:45

generalized, yes, we knew about jacuzzi.

79

: 00:02:48

Crockpot.

80

: 00:02:49

John: Oh, I did not know that.

81

: 00:02:51

Let me guess, Betty Crocker?

82

: 00:02:52

Brian: No, crockpot.

83

: 00:02:53

John: But like, who, it's

just a standalone brand?

84

: 00:02:57

Brian: Yeah.

85

: 00:02:58

John: Oh, interesting.

86

: 00:02:59

I had no idea.

87

: 00:03:00

I thought that was a generic.

88

: 00:03:01

Brian: You thought that was the product?

89

: 00:03:03

Yeah.

90

: 00:03:03

Aspirin?

91

: 00:03:05

John: I knew that.

92

: 00:03:06

Brian: Yeah.

93

: 00:03:06

Not

94

: 00:03:07

John: everywhere.

95

: 00:03:07

Brian: Yeah.

96

: 00:03:08

John: Not in the U.

97

: 00:03:08

S., but other places.

98

: 00:03:09

I did know that.

99

: 00:03:11

Brian: Bubble wrap.

100

: 00:03:13

John: What?

101

: 00:03:13

Brian: Yeah.

102

: 00:03:14

That was a surprise to me.

103

: 00:03:16

Velcro.

104

: 00:03:17

Makes sense.

105

: 00:03:18

Here's an interesting one.

106

: 00:03:19

Escalator.

107

: 00:03:21

John: Escalator.

108

: 00:03:21

I knew about escalator.

109

: 00:03:22

By the way, I love this stuff.

110

: 00:03:24

So, I know some.

111

: 00:03:25

Brian: Okay.

112

: 00:03:26

Escalator is

113

: 00:03:27

John: Otis.

114

: 00:03:27

That's the elevator company.

115

: 00:03:28

Yeah.

116

: 00:03:30

Jetski.

117

: 00:03:30

Makes sense.

118

: 00:03:31

Didn't know, but

119

: 00:03:32

Brian: would have guessed.

120

: 00:03:33

Laundromat.

121

: 00:03:34

John: Oh, damn!

122

: 00:03:35

You have my favorite.

123

: 00:03:36

Brian: Oh, that was yours.

124

: 00:03:37

John: Oh, I love that one.

125

: 00:03:39

Yeah.

126

: 00:03:39

Westinghouse owned that for years.

127

: 00:03:42

I did

128

: 00:03:43

Brian: not know

129

: 00:03:43

John: that.

130

: 00:03:43

You know when they stopped?

131

: 00:03:44

When they abandoned their trademark?

132

: 00:03:46

Yeah.

133

: 00:03:46

Yeah.

134

: 00:03:46

Brian: Now when?

135

: 00:03:48

John: When they stopped

making washing machines.

136

: 00:03:49

Brian: Oh.

137

: 00:03:51

John: They, they created the first,

I think, automatic washing machine,

138

: 00:03:56

maybe the first automatic wall

mounted or whatever, but they, the

139

: 00:03:58

whole coin op thing started with

a Westinghouse brand laundromat.

140

: 00:04:03

Brian: Yeah.

141

: 00:04:04

John: By the way, here's, here's, here's

something you probably don't know.

142

: 00:04:07

There's another name for laundromat.

143

: 00:04:08

Not very common.

144

: 00:04:11

I think it's used in Texas.

145

: 00:04:12

Oh, a washateria

146

: 00:04:13

Brian: A washateria?.

147

: 00:04:17

John: Surprisingly that didn't

take that didn't catch on.

148

: 00:04:19

The rest of the country.

149

: 00:04:20

Yeah.

150

: 00:04:21

Brian: It sounds like it sounds terrible.

151

: 00:04:25

John: Yeah,

152

: 00:04:26

Brian: I went down a little rattle on

some of these and I was really surprised

153

: 00:04:30

to hear well, not surprised, but, you

know, just the fact that these companies,

154

: 00:04:35

you know, the trademark, they trademark

these things and it helps buy them

155

: 00:04:39

time for all the research and, and time

they've put into building these products.

156

: 00:04:43

But then once they wear

off it really just.

157

: 00:04:46

It opens the door for more fair

competition, but the public

158

: 00:04:50

doesn't really know anything else.

159

: 00:04:51

A couple more I got and then we'll get

to our guests, but thermos didn't know.

160

: 00:04:56

And Rollerblade.

161

: 00:04:57

Did no.

162

: 00:04:58

Oh, you did?

163

: 00:04:58

Okay.

164

: 00:04:59

Yeah.

165

: 00:04:59

John: Can I share some of mine with you?

166

: 00:05:01

Brian: I would love to

hear what else you got.

167

: 00:05:03

John: You already used my

favorite example of laundromat.

168

: 00:05:08

You skipped the most obvious in my mind.

169

: 00:05:10

Xerox.

170

: 00:05:11

Brian: Xerox is a good one.

171

: 00:05:12

Yeah.

172

: 00:05:13

John: Yeah.

173

: 00:05:14

Now, if any of our listeners are

under 30, they don't know what we're

174

: 00:05:16

talking about, but Xerox and a

mimeograph, I think I'm not mistaken.

175

: 00:05:20

What is that?

176

: 00:05:21

Mimeograph.

177

: 00:05:22

Do you know what a mimeograph is?

178

: 00:05:23

Brian: No, I do not.

179

: 00:05:24

John: Oh,

180

: 00:05:24

Brian: Jesus.

181

: 00:05:25

All right.

182

: 00:05:25

Nevermind.

183

: 00:05:27

I need to know more about that.

184

: 00:05:28

What is the meaning?

185

: 00:05:30

John: Okay.

186

: 00:05:30

Before there was Xerox, there was

machine and, and I remember schools

187

: 00:05:35

and offices that made copies.

188

: 00:05:38

Called a mimeograph machine and

paper rolled across this purple ink

189

: 00:05:42

and it would come out and it would

still be a little wet and smeary

190

: 00:05:46

and it had a very polarizing scent.

191

: 00:05:49

Some people loved it.

192

: 00:05:50

Some people were disgusted by it.

193

: 00:05:52

Brian: Wow.

194

: 00:05:52

School in the 1870s.

195

: 00:05:54

Who knew?

196

: 00:05:54

John: Yeah, right?

197

: 00:05:55

Yeah.

198

: 00:05:55

We mimeographed right after we finished

writing on the back of our shovels.

199

: 00:06:01

Alright, I got another one for you.

200

: 00:06:03

Alright, bring it.

201

: 00:06:03

Teleprompter.

202

: 00:06:05

Brian: Oh, interesting.

203

: 00:06:07

John: Yeah,

204

: 00:06:08

Brian: it's become

205

: 00:06:08

John: genericized.

206

: 00:06:10

Brian: And Post it notes, too.

207

: 00:06:12

John: Well, yeah, that I think, yeah.

208

: 00:06:14

Alright, good stuff.

209

: 00:06:15

Alright.

210

: 00:06:16

Love a genericized brand name.

211

: 00:06:18

It seems like the ultimate

symbol of success, right?

212

: 00:06:20

You've arrived.

213

: 00:06:21

Oh my god, everyone calls it Band

Aid, but it's actually a little

214

: 00:06:24

bit of a problem for these brands.

215

: 00:06:26

Brian: Yeah, I think it's definitely

a sign of success when you conquer the

216

: 00:06:30

market like that, but in the long run, it

could, could end up hurting you, but might

217

: 00:06:34

as well shoot for that in the beginning

and then deal with the problem later.

218

: 00:06:37

I

219

: 00:06:37

John: guess as long as you're susceptible

to cheap knockoffs, it's going to happen.

220

: 00:06:41

Brian: For sure.

221

: 00:06:42

For sure.

222

: 00:06:43

John: All right.

223

: 00:06:44

Shall we move on and talk to our guest?

224

: 00:06:46

Brian: Let's get into it.

225

: 00:06:48

John: All right.

226

: 00:06:49

I am happy to introduce a savvy

marketer and an all around

227

: 00:06:53

terrific guy, Jinx Joglekar.

228

: 00:06:56

He leads marketing for both Dish Network

and Sling TV, making him responsible for

229

: 00:07:01

driving growth and engagement for millions

of customers who are cutting the cord.

230

: 00:07:05

He's responsible for all the acquisition,

the media, e commerce, including

231

: 00:07:09

advertising, digital marketing,

marketing technology, and digital sales.

232

: 00:07:13

Before he joined Sling in 2022, he led

e commerce for the Xfinity brand under

233

: 00:07:18

the Comcast NBC Universal umbrella,

leading digital sales and merchandising

234

: 00:07:23

for TV, high speed internet, and mobile.

235

: 00:07:25

Prior to that, he led an innovation

team at JP Morgan Chase, creating

236

: 00:07:29

unique digital experiences, including

the freedom mobile app outside of work.

237

: 00:07:34

He plays drums in his basement studio.

238

: 00:07:36

He apparently has learned guitar, piano,

bass, and the ukulele for his daughter.

239

: 00:07:40

He's got great marketing skills.

240

: 00:07:42

He loves good food.

241

: 00:07:43

And I think he's falling for his

relatively new home state of Colorado.

242

: 00:07:47

And he has one of the all time best

most contagious laughs, please.

243

: 00:07:51

Welcome, Jinx.

244

: 00:07:52

Brian: Welcome to the show.

245

: 00:07:54

Jinx: Thanks for having me guys.

246

: 00:07:55

It's

247

: 00:07:55

John: How about that intro?

248

: 00:07:57

Jinx: It was great.

249

: 00:07:57

John: If we don't make you laugh

we've failed because I just said

250

: 00:08:01

it's the most contagious one.

251

: 00:08:02

Jinx: I mean, it's contagious,

but also it's reflexive for me.

252

: 00:08:05

So yeah, you will, you'll be fine.

253

: 00:08:08

John: So, Brian, you're going

to need to be funny, okay?

254

: 00:08:11

Brian: I'll do my best.

255

: 00:08:12

John: Alright.

256

: 00:08:13

Alright, first, Jinx, can you

explain your role and how you head

257

: 00:08:16

up marketing for two very different

brands, Dish Network and Sling?

258

: 00:08:20

And then a little bit like, you

know, what challenges come with

259

: 00:08:22

juggling those responsibilities?

260

: 00:08:24

Jinx: Sure.

261

: 00:08:25

So my role at Echo Star, formerly

known as DISH, we had a merger last

262

: 00:08:30

year with a sister company, Echo

Star, that does mobile internet, is

263

: 00:08:33

I I lead up acquisition marketing

for the video services vertical.

264

: 00:08:38

So that encompasses DISH and

Sling as our two main products.

265

: 00:08:43

And what I'm focused on really is.

266

: 00:08:45

How we drive high quality subs into

our ecosystem of video services.

267

: 00:08:51

So what does that mean?

268

: 00:08:52

Well, I own the offer strategy

and how we go to market, what

269

: 00:08:56

those go to market moments are.

270

: 00:08:58

In the video space I also in the media

budgets and, and channel management,

271

: 00:09:04

I own all of our digital sales flows,

our e commerce flows, and then all of

272

: 00:09:10

our marketing analytics and the, what I

call like the last mile from a customer

273

: 00:09:16

strategy and media to acquisition.

274

: 00:09:17

. So all the things you'd think about

when you're thinking about acquiring

275

: 00:09:23

John: And going back real quick for

those who don't know subs in this case

276

: 00:09:27

means subscribers, not sandwiches.

277

: 00:09:29

Subscribers.

278

: 00:09:30

Jinx: That's right.

279

: 00:09:30

And if I ever say RGUs

then, then John translate

280

: 00:09:33

John: will, we'll flag you on

revenue generating units too,

281

: 00:09:37

which, which customer doesn't

want to refer to as an RGU.

282

: 00:09:41

Jinx: It's, it's the most marketing

customer centric, friendly

283

: 00:09:43

way to describe subscribers.

284

: 00:09:45

John: Exactly.

285

: 00:09:46

Alright, so you're selling video

products for, you know, if I'm a

286

: 00:09:50

consumer, you could be marketing

one of two different video services

287

: 00:09:53

to me, Dish Network and Sling.

288

: 00:09:55

How's that work?

289

: 00:09:57

Jinx: yeah, so for me, it's

actually really, really fun.

290

: 00:10:00

I started here about two

and a half years ago.

291

: 00:10:03

And was hired when I moved from

Comcast where I met you, John over

292

: 00:10:07

to run the marketing for Sling,

which was, you know, the acquisition

293

: 00:10:12

component, but also the brand and the,

and the life cycle retention piece.

294

: 00:10:16

Once we kind of brought ourselves

together as video services, we broke

295

: 00:10:19

that up with some key marketing leaders

could have broke up those functions

296

: 00:10:21

because they're just such big brands

that need that much dedicated focus.

297

: 00:10:25

And, and so for me, it's,

like I said, it's really fun.

298

: 00:10:28

I get to think about.

299

: 00:10:30

Really two distinct products, right?

300

: 00:10:32

You have satellite television with

dish, you have linear streaming

301

: 00:10:36

with Sling and really think about

how do I market those products?

302

: 00:10:40

How do I go to market with those

products and how do I acquire customers

303

: 00:10:43

into those products that have very

different experience of the customer,

304

: 00:10:47

very different jobs to be done with the

customer and very different needs states.

305

: 00:10:51

And so that to me, my, most of my

time is thinking about how do I,

306

: 00:10:57

segment my addressable market for

those so that I'm really relevant

307

: 00:11:02

using the right media, delivering

the right offer at the right place at

308

: 00:11:06

the right time to drive a customer.

309

: 00:11:09

John: You're talking Brian's language.

310

: 00:11:10

Hmm.

311

: 00:11:12

Brian: so how are you defining

quality for, for both those brands

312

: 00:11:18

and, you know, where are you having

success kind of finding those people

313

: 00:11:22

Jinx: Yeah, I mean, for us, the quality

sub it, it's a little, it's a little

314

: 00:11:25

bit different in, in each one, but,

but in the end of the day, it's someone

315

: 00:11:29

that Loves to watch TV and wants to

continue watching TV with our service

316

: 00:11:34

and and finds value in the, in the great

features we have, whether on the dish

317

: 00:11:38

side, it's the hopper and the ability

to aggregate your, your linear feeds

318

: 00:11:43

with your streaming on the sling side.

319

: 00:11:44

It's, it's the great video quality

ability to watch it on the go.

320

: 00:11:48

The new product enhancements

we've had like rewards and sports

321

: 00:11:52

scores and things like that.

322

: 00:11:53

So but, but really quality means.

323

: 00:11:56

A sub that loves tv is gonna be with us

a long time that Likes our product likes

324

: 00:12:01

our offering and we don't go and and

play maybe the game of a couple years ago

325

: 00:12:06

Which is like all out growth and spend

to get as many subscribers as possible.

326

: 00:12:11

Brian: And churn is through the roof?

327

: 00:12:12

Yeah.

328

: 00:12:13

Jinx: yeah, right and and and have have

high churn and so you know, I think if

329

: 00:12:17

you, if you see some of the, the reports

we've had lately, you see that, the

330

: 00:12:21

benefit of that, particularly what we're

doing on the dish side, and it's really

331

: 00:12:24

been great to, to leverage some of the

knowledge we've had on that side and

332

: 00:12:28

bring it to the sling side where, as you

know, I mean, you guys see the streaming

333

: 00:12:33

reports where churn is high and we're,

we're starting to buck that trend.

334

: 00:12:36

So that's kind of cool.

335

: 00:12:37

Brian: Right.

336

: 00:12:38

John: So when you're on that quest to

find quality subscribers for either

337

: 00:12:43

dish or sling is, do you ever find

the circumstance where the brands

338

: 00:12:48

are competing for the same customers?

339

: 00:12:51

Jinx: Actually, no, we, the beautiful

part about having it all in one shop

340

: 00:12:55

is the ability for us to stratify

where we spend our marketing dollar.

341

: 00:12:59

And as you guys will know, if I'm

spending a dollar for each brand

342

: 00:13:04

competing against each other, both

brands are going to be inefficient.

343

: 00:13:07

And so we do, we spend a lot

of time saying, well, here's

344

: 00:13:11

the segment and the target.

345

: 00:13:12

That's really the right fit for sling.

346

: 00:13:14

Here's the right segment

and target story for dish.

347

: 00:13:17

Let's not overlap.

348

: 00:13:18

Let's, let's not spray and

pray and try to get everybody.

349

: 00:13:21

But again, really have hyper

targeted tactics and channel

350

: 00:13:24

strategies to go acquire them,

351

: 00:13:27

Brian: How often are you

Coming out with new offers.

352

: 00:13:31

Jinx: It's interesting, you know, on

the dish side, it's, probably, , once

353

: 00:13:34

every quarter, once every half a year,

it's a more static process and that's.

354

: 00:13:40

You know, again, we go in with a low price

that, you know, two year price commitment.

355

: 00:13:46

There's not a lot of change and

that's kind of, but that's actually

356

: 00:13:48

what the customer wants, right?

357

: 00:13:49

They want their content at the best price.

358

: 00:13:52

On the sling side.

359

: 00:13:54

We're, we're a little more fluid.

360

: 00:13:54

We're a little more dynamic because

a, we have the technology to do it.

361

: 00:13:58

And B that's what the

customer wants, right?

362

: 00:14:00

In certain.

363

: 00:14:01

In certain moments, it's about you know,

doing a monthly offer because that's what

364

: 00:14:06

the customer wants in certain moments.

365

: 00:14:07

It's about doing a prepaid

offer like we did for football.

366

: 00:14:10

Where we've actually got a fixed price

that you, you do for the football season.

367

: 00:14:16

You pay one low price and you get all

of that content throughout your season.

368

: 00:14:20

And then when you're done, you know,

we, we want you to stick around.

369

: 00:14:23

We want you to go and, and.

370

: 00:14:24

Take another offer and keep keep with

us, but if you don't actually what

371

: 00:14:28

we launched on sling last year is

Our fast service free ad supported

372

: 00:14:33

television, which is called free stream.

373

: 00:14:34

So even if you don't want to Pay for sling

we we still offer a value on sling to the

374

: 00:14:39

to those customers They give you great

free content Give you a reason to watch

375

: 00:14:43

and then when you're ready to resubscribe

make it easy to do that in one click

376

: 00:14:47

Brian: That's cool.

377

: 00:14:48

Are you seeing traction with that?

378

: 00:14:50

Jinx: Yeah, we're, we're seeing great

traction with folks that are coming into

379

: 00:14:54

free to discover Sling and understand

the UI, understand what's in the product.

380

: 00:15:00

We also are seeing great traction with

people that are Paid subscribers that

381

: 00:15:05

don't want to pay for content for that

time that go into free stream, watch that.

382

: 00:15:09

It's great content.

383

: 00:15:10

And then, you know, resubscribe when

they're ready when their favorite show

384

: 00:15:13

comes on or, or a season comes on.

385

: 00:15:17

, John: it's interesting, you know,

Brian touched on the idea of churn

386

: 00:15:20

earlier, earlier in the category, you

know, there's always been switchers.

387

: 00:15:24

Take people jumping from

one offer to the next.

388

: 00:15:27

Do you find that a lot of the folks

coming in to Sling are coming from

389

: 00:15:32

other streaming services or are they,

are they disconnecting from cable?

390

: 00:15:37

Jinx: Yeah, it's, it's a mix actually.

391

: 00:15:38

I think you know, I can't share all

the, all the facts with you, but

392

: 00:15:41

I will say, you know, when sling

launched, obviously in: 2015

393

: 00:15:47

a mass starting to be a mass access

394

: 00:15:50

John: Mm hmm.

395

: 00:15:51

Jinx: traditional pay TV,

cable providers, et cetera.

396

: 00:15:53

I think what you're seeing now is

because That's cord cutting has happened.

397

: 00:15:57

There's a lot of movement

between those services.

398

: 00:15:59

And what we find is on sling, because

we still have the value proposition

399

: 00:16:03

of being able to pick your pack, you

know, not having to buy a full cable

400

: 00:16:07

replacement and being better on the

wallet, you'll see people that are

401

: 00:16:11

coming from, you know, your YouTube

TVs, your Hulu lives that are.

402

: 00:16:15

John: Got it.

403

: 00:16:15

Jinx: Basically a cable replacement

404

: 00:16:17

John: Mm hmm.

405

: 00:16:18

Jinx: coming to us for, for even

more content that they want to

406

: 00:16:21

watch at the price they want.

407

: 00:16:23

,

John: we always like to talk about how brands position themselves in the world.

408

: 00:16:26

And hearing you talk, it's, it seems like

the, the positioning for Sling is, you

409

: 00:16:31

know, the, the, the lighter package of

content you want for a lower price, right?

410

: 00:16:36

How do you position DISH?

411

: 00:16:37

Can you kind of draw the distinction

between how you position those two brands?

412

: 00:16:41

Jinx: Yeah, I think.

413

: 00:16:42

So yeah, I think you're right on

saying, and we've done a lot of work

414

: 00:16:44

on this from from a brand perspective,

you know, I, I joke with with, with

415

: 00:16:49

John, I've joked about is like,

you know, I'm the acquisition guy.

416

: 00:16:52

So there's a thing that I'm, that I'm

responsible for, but, you know, Brand

417

: 00:16:56

and acquisition and performance and all

it's, it's meaningless delineations,

418

: 00:17:01

honestly, because you have to have

an awesome brand value statement.

419

: 00:17:05

That'll drive to awesome channel

strategies that will drive to

420

: 00:17:10

awesome, creative and awesome

digital sales experiences.

421

: 00:17:13

And that's like the virtuous

cycle that actually acquires subs.

422

: 00:17:17

And then quite frankly, retains

them and finds the quality ones.

423

: 00:17:20

So, so we've spent collectively a

lot of time thinking about it and,

424

: 00:17:22

and the way to think about it is.

425

: 00:17:24

On sling and and you you'll start to

see if you haven't already seen some

426

: 00:17:28

of this creative in market, which

is we call it sling lets you do that

427

: 00:17:32

that's the campaign and it's You

know, it's it's it's really great.

428

: 00:17:35

It's really eye catching and

Leverages this repetitive statement

429

: 00:17:38

of something that you do that,

but it's like can I watch the tv?

430

: 00:17:41

I want Sling lets you do that.

431

: 00:17:43

Can I watch the tv?

432

: 00:17:43

I want at the price I want Sling

lets you do that, can I cancel

433

: 00:17:46

when I want Sling lets you do that?

434

: 00:17:47

Can I cancel I watch free?

435

: 00:17:49

Stuff so I don't have to pay, can I?

436

: 00:17:51

Sling lets you do, can I get rewarded?

437

: 00:17:52

So as you do that, and you can see how

that thread goes, and, and it allows

438

: 00:17:56

us to talk about, you know, quite

frankly, a complex concept of like a la

439

: 00:18:00

carte TV and pulling what you want and

getting rewarded for it in a way that,

440

: 00:18:04

that, that makes sense in this wrapper.

441

: 00:18:05

John: Got it.

442

: 00:18:06

Jinx: On the Dish side, we have a

little bit of a different thing where

443

: 00:18:09

Dish is a known quantity, right?

444

: 00:18:11

We, they know what the Dish brand

is and, and there's a, there's

445

: 00:18:14

a, a conception of it, right?

446

: 00:18:16

Where, hey, it's satellite, it's some,

you know, it's on my house, it rains,

447

: 00:18:20

and then I lose service, and, and so

and those are misconceptions, right?

448

: 00:18:24

We've, we've done a tremendous

amount of work to update our Hopper

449

: 00:18:27

platform to ingest multiple Streaming

providers so you can watch what

450

: 00:18:31

you want when you want to watch it.

451

: 00:18:33

We have signal protector, which you

know if there's an issue with the

452

: 00:18:36

signal we actually divert you to digital

signal and so it's it's Really great.

453

: 00:18:41

And so that campaign and that branding

is all about Well, how do we reinforce

454

: 00:18:45

the stability of our product?

455

: 00:18:47

The stability of our pricing, right?

456

: 00:18:50

I talked about the two year price

guarantee in the beginning and the

457

: 00:18:53

stability of the offering we have

, cause that customer wants consistency.

458

: 00:18:56

They don't want a whole lot of complexity.

459

: 00:18:58

They really want it to

be easy and consistent.

460

: 00:18:59

That's where the branding on, on that

side is more there's more to dish.

461

: 00:19:03

Right.

462

: 00:19:04

Cause.

463

: 00:19:04

We already have that

brand in people's mind.

464

: 00:19:07

We want to tell them the

misconceptions they have are

465

: 00:19:10

incorrect and, and how do we correct.

466

: 00:19:12

John: hmm.

467

: 00:19:12

It is, yeah, that's, it's hard to

change deeply held consumer perceptions

468

: 00:19:17

about things like the satellite

goes out when it's cloudy or rainy,

469

: 00:19:21

but are you seeing movement there?

470

: 00:19:22

Are you seeing the people kind of, those

old perceptions are starting to get a

471

: 00:19:26

little bit, Smaller and easier to overcome

472

: 00:19:29

Jinx: yeah, I, I, I mean, I, I think

especially because you know, in a former

473

: 00:19:34

life we did this on, on the cable side,

like there, there's less of a focus on

474

: 00:19:38

the, on the television product, right?

475

: 00:19:41

Things have moved to internet.

476

: 00:19:41

It's very much about the internet product.

477

: 00:19:44

The the focus isn't there.

478

: 00:19:45

So what we're able to do is

say, we've actually, we actually

479

: 00:19:48

care about this consumer.

480

: 00:19:49

We want to create a high

quality experience and

481

: 00:19:52

that's what we're innovating.

482

: 00:19:52

So we're seeing some

receptiveness to that.

483

: 00:19:55

And then particularly we've

got some of our ads in social

484

: 00:19:57

and we're seeing a lot of.

485

: 00:19:59

Traction with that message, particularly

around signal protector and two

486

: 00:20:03

year price guarantee, et cetera,

about how consistent stable we are.

487

: 00:20:06

So really you know, early stages on, on

that brand work for there's more to dish,

488

: 00:20:11

but, but really good traction so far.

489

: 00:20:12

Brian: how would you describe the

current state of streaming overall?

490

: 00:20:16

You know, it's been a while I

guess ten years at this point, you

491

: 00:20:19

know, where where do where do you

see the the landscape right now?

492

: 00:20:24

Jinx: Yeah, I mean, so

it's really interesting.

493

: 00:20:26

We kind of talked about it, I think.

494

: 00:20:29

And Sling was a little bit ahead.

495

: 00:20:30

Like when we, when I came in two

and a half years ago, we were

496

: 00:20:32

already starting to think like this.

497

: 00:20:33

But there's a shift from, I just want

to acquire every subscriber I can.

498

: 00:20:38

So I want to find the subscribers

that really want my service.

499

: 00:20:42

And and then map that with there's

a proliferation of options.

500

: 00:20:47

So what wasn't around Say well,

nothing was around in: 2015

501

: 00:20:52

what wasn't around two years ago

was fast services in mass, right?

502

: 00:20:57

Pluto and to be in those weren't around.

503

: 00:21:00

Now they are.

504

: 00:21:00

And then, and honestly go on

any smart device or smart TV and

505

: 00:21:06

you will see Roku free channels.

506

: 00:21:08

You'll see Samsung free channels, right?

507

: 00:21:10

Like

508

: 00:21:11

John: or smart TV will just

start playing something.

509

: 00:21:13

Jinx: Yeah, let's just start playing stuff

and and so it's you know So the way you

510

: 00:21:16

have to think about it is and and that's

why we launched freestream on Sling is We

511

: 00:21:20

want to be there for the customer where

they are and how they want to watch right?

512

: 00:21:24

And we want to we we you know

from from a revenue metric, right?

513

: 00:21:28

Of course, we want paid subscribers I

mean, that's that's what That's that

514

: 00:21:32

piece but but from a customer experience

and just a brand And just, you know,

515

: 00:21:37

having an awesome product, we create,

want to create something where we have

516

: 00:21:41

what's right for you in the moment.

517

: 00:21:42

And that's really what we're focused

on and how, what differentiates us.

518

: 00:21:47

And that's why we launched a fast

service which we're the first paid

519

: 00:21:50

and fast service to be able to go

back and forth between we launched

520

: 00:21:54

rewards, which we were the first.

521

: 00:21:56

To provider to streaming provider to give

you actual rewards incentive to watch.

522

: 00:22:00

And, and so that's, that's the

lens we view things in, and

523

: 00:22:03

that's what you'll continue to

see from sling at moving forward.

524

: 00:22:08

Brian: Tell us a little about the

rewards that you're talking about.

525

: 00:22:11

Jinx: Yeah.

526

: 00:22:11

So you can go on sling.

527

: 00:22:12

com rewards, shameless

plug and check it out.

528

: 00:22:15

But basically the, the nature of it is.

529

: 00:22:17

When you watch, as you watch, the

more you watch, you earn entries to

530

: 00:22:22

win cash, so just literally straight

cash that we give away every month

531

: 00:22:28

prizes from, you know, our partners.

532

: 00:22:29

So we gave away a trip to the U.

533

: 00:22:31

S.

534

: 00:22:31

Open, we're giving a trip for the Walking

Dead premiere, you know, all of that's

535

: 00:22:36

included and you, basically, the more you

watch, the more entries You get to win.

536

: 00:22:40

The really cool part for the customer

and for us is you don't have to

537

: 00:22:43

be a paid subscriber to earn.

538

: 00:22:45

You can be paid, you can be free, and

you still have the same amount of chances

539

: 00:22:48

to earn as long as you keep watching.

540

: 00:22:50

John: So so so wait a minute a couple

things there one You're trying to

541

: 00:22:55

turn us into an even bigger nation

of couch potatoes by incentivizing

542

: 00:22:59

just leaving your tv on all the time.

543

: 00:23:01

Okay two you're putting the

burden on internet providers Who

544

: 00:23:08

are kind of providing that that

streaming in the background right

545

: 00:23:13

Jinx: I would say it a different

way, but yeah, sure, you

546

: 00:23:15

Brian: There's another word than burden.

547

: 00:23:17

John: And meanwhile you know, you

guys get a lot of engagement and

548

: 00:23:20

your, your consumers get rewarded.

549

: 00:23:22

So

550

: 00:23:23

Jinx: that's right.

551

: 00:23:25

Yeah.

552

: 00:23:25

And, and, and for me personally, you

know you, you mentioned the upfront,

553

: 00:23:28

like I used to work on loyalty

innovation at JPMorgan Chase, and it

554

: 00:23:32

was all about different ways to use

your points and, and earn points.

555

: 00:23:36

And so when I, when I came here you know,

we were, we were all kind of thinking

556

: 00:23:40

about it and it just aligned in a

beautiful way to say, you know, what's.

557

: 00:23:44

What we said we actually had this at

Chase we did in a brief We said when

558

: 00:23:48

we're doing rewards were like get

the things you love for free, right?

559

: 00:23:52

And basically because you're paying

with your points, so I was like, what

560

: 00:23:55

do you love more than watching TV?

561

: 00:23:56

So it's like get get paid to watch TV get

paid to do the thing you love get paid to

562

: 00:24:00

Brian: mean, yeah, when we were kids,

you'd say that all the time, right?

563

: 00:24:04

That's what I want my job to be.

564

: 00:24:06

John: All right.

565

: 00:24:06

So, so I'm hearing a couple of things.

566

: 00:24:07

If I switch to sling, you will pay me.

567

: 00:24:10

I think it's what I'm hearing.

568

: 00:24:11

The second thing is Can you promise

me that when I turn on Sling,

569

: 00:24:15

I won't have to watch Dateline?

570

: 00:24:17

Because that's what happens when

I turn my TV on now, and I don't

571

: 00:24:19

know how to make that stop.

572

: 00:24:21

Jinx: I promise you, you

will not watch the Dateline

573

: 00:24:23

John: thanks.

574

: 00:24:24

I'm switching.

575

: 00:24:25

Jinx: yeah, I promise that, but, and

we spend a lot of time, honestly,

576

: 00:24:28

thinking about how we personalize and

curate the experience, based on what

577

: 00:24:32

you come in on, and this goes back to

the thing I said before, it's like,

578

: 00:24:35

Well, it's gotta be great creative.

579

: 00:24:36

It's gotta be a great channel strategy.

580

: 00:24:38

It's gotta be great, buy flow

and, and, and sales process.

581

: 00:24:42

But then once you hit that, it's gotta

be, Hey, I wanted to watch this thing.

582

: 00:24:45

I wanna watch Yellowstone.

583

: 00:24:46

That's gonna be the first

thing you're seeing, right?

584

: 00:24:48

And that should be the

thing that that gets you in.

585

: 00:24:50

And then how do we recommend

things to keep you engaged?

586

: 00:24:53

And, and you know, you know, my

boss has a great phrase, which is,

587

: 00:24:56

product's gotta match the promise.

588

: 00:24:58

Right.

589

: 00:24:58

And so, and that's like literally like

emblazoned in our heads, like, I'm

590

: 00:25:02

in the market promising something.

591

: 00:25:04

How do we have the product, the

sales experience, the product,

592

: 00:25:07

et cetera, to match that.

593

: 00:25:09

So that's kind of an ethos we have here.

594

: 00:25:12

Brian: that's great.

595

: 00:25:12

Yeah.

596

: 00:25:13

If, if anything falls down,

the whole stool collapses.

597

: 00:25:17

So , in terms of your segments,

especially for streaming you know, with.

598

: 00:25:22

Streaming and being an on demand world.

599

: 00:25:24

But you know, sports is just such a

big I'm sure it's such a big, you know,

600

: 00:25:29

the NFL season right now, it's probably

such a big thing for your campaigns.

601

: 00:25:33

Can you talk a little bit about you know,

just building a program around, you know,

602

: 00:25:37

NFL users or sports, sports watchers,

you know, how does that make up kind of

603

: 00:25:44

your, I guess your seasonal play here?

604

: 00:25:46

Jinx: Yeah, I mean, it's a big moment.

605

: 00:25:48

I mean, honestly, like, it's

a big moment for everybody.

606

: 00:25:50

Right?

607

: 00:25:50

Because that, this is when

the eyeballs turn to TV.

608

: 00:25:53

So, yes, it's a big moment as a

TV provider, but even, you know,

609

: 00:25:57

advertisers in general, this is

when they spend, you know, etc.

610

: 00:26:01

So, the way we think about

it is a couple things.

611

: 00:26:03

One, football means different

things to different people, right?

612

: 00:26:05

We've got, you have NFL watchers,

you have, but you have equally as

613

: 00:26:09

passionate college football watchers.

614

: 00:26:12

Those programs actually live in different

places, ? You know, one's college on ESPN,

615

: 00:26:17

NFL, on a variety of platforms, right?

616

: 00:26:21

And, you know, one might argue too

many, but that's a different story.

617

: 00:26:23

And so, so how do we hit those

different segments, right?

618

: 00:26:26

That care about different affinities.

619

: 00:26:29

And then to hit the second point

about the, the stratification of

620

: 00:26:32

where you can watch, like that's

been a big focus of ours to say.

621

: 00:26:37

You know, whether it's particularly on

dish where you can aggregate a lot of

622

: 00:26:40

content, but even on sling where we can

make up a sizable chunk of that it's.

623

: 00:26:45

It's how do you show the value of

what these services enable for you

624

: 00:26:50

while this landscape has become

more complex than ever, right?

625

: 00:26:55

And so, so that's really important to us.

626

: 00:26:57

And lastly is, you know, like I

said a little bit ago, like prepaid

627

: 00:27:00

offers, for example, on Sling, and

we do similar things on Dish to

628

: 00:27:05

focus on offers for these customers.

629

: 00:27:07

How do we have the right offer?

630

: 00:27:08

To hit these customers.

631

: 00:27:09

So we've got a value proposition in

the market that's tailored messaging

632

: 00:27:12

is tailored to their affinity You

know, whether it's team whether it's

633

: 00:27:16

league, whatever how do we then have a

value proposition that fits into that

634

: 00:27:20

affinity to drive more of that content?

635

: 00:27:22

And then what's that offer

strategy and then and then

636

: 00:27:25

channel strategy to actually say?

637

: 00:27:27

Well, Hey, we can actually give you

a price point that you care about.

638

: 00:27:31

And so you can get all

your content, right?

639

: 00:27:34

John: So Jinx, you've talked about

sort of pulling different levers to get

640

: 00:27:38

customers, you know, Messages, different

messages, working to different, different

641

: 00:27:43

audiences, different offers different

product features that make it sticky.

642

: 00:27:48

What about different media levers?

643

: 00:27:51

Do you feel like now that you're running

a pretty sophisticated acquisition

644

: 00:27:54

marketing machine, do you think, you

know, which channels are working best

645

: 00:27:58

where you should be spending more money

to get in front of those prospects?

646

: 00:28:02

Or is that still a little

bit of a black art?

647

: 00:28:05

Jinx: Well, you know, the,

the famous quote is right.

648

: 00:28:07

I, and half my money is working.

649

: 00:28:09

I just don't know which half, right?

650

: 00:28:11

I think, I think we're better than

that now, but, but I do think there's

651

: 00:28:14

well, we spend a lot of time on to be

totally serious is, is incrementality.

652

: 00:28:19

So I don't know if you've, had

the pleasure of reading a

653

: 00:28:21

guy named Avinash Kaushik.

654

: 00:28:23

He's really fantastic.

655

: 00:28:24

Digital marketing guy, ex Google.

656

: 00:28:27

But, he has a philosophy that I'm really

in tune to and I really like, which is.

657

: 00:28:30

It's all about how to drive incrementality

in the channel because we've spent a lot

658

: 00:28:37

of money on Sling And then it's and to

just say hey paid search strobe this many

659

: 00:28:42

activations is a discredit to everything

that's come before you and everything

660

: 00:28:46

else So so what so what we've focused

on, is really how do we do three things?

661

: 00:28:51

Which is how do we think about?

662

: 00:28:53

channel level incrementality to,

to, to know where to spend, right?

663

: 00:28:57

And so that's kind of in isolation.

664

: 00:28:59

So, hey, is this channel driving

more sales than without it?

665

: 00:29:02

Then we think about, you know,

within a channel, you've got

666

: 00:29:05

kind of subgroups of, of things.

667

: 00:29:07

So for example, you know, on Meta, Meta's,

One thing that's got Facebook, it's got

668

: 00:29:13

Instagram, it's got WhatsApp or whatever.

669

: 00:29:15

How do you break those down into clusters?

670

: 00:29:18

Right.

671

: 00:29:18

And then, and beyond that, then

how do you full portfolio kind of

672

: 00:29:22

incrementality view, and that could be

match market, or that could be, Pulling

673

: 00:29:27

out spend and then bringing it back.

674

: 00:29:29

Right.

675

: 00:29:29

All of those things are tools that we've

done to evaluate where should we spend?

676

: 00:29:32

Why should we spend?

677

: 00:29:34

And then how that impacts our media mix.

678

: 00:29:37

I will say the biggest

difficulty on that is.

679

: 00:29:42

These are point in time views.

680

: 00:29:44

TV business is a seasonal business.

681

: 00:29:45

So how do we spread that across?

682

: 00:29:47

And that's like, that's the fun of it.

683

: 00:29:48

Like that's the that's the challenge.

684

: 00:29:50

And you know, I feel like you're

listening to don't be lying.

685

: 00:29:53

If I said, I figured it all out, but

686

: 00:29:54

John: Yeah.

687

: 00:29:54

Yeah.

688

: 00:29:54

Yeah.

689

: 00:29:55

Jinx: the framework we use to evaluate.

690

: 00:29:56

John: But at least, at least

you have that framework.

691

: 00:29:58

You have a process and,

and, and to your point.

692

: 00:30:00

Yeah.

693

: 00:30:01

Not only is TV a seasonal business,

but we just talked about the

694

: 00:30:03

NFL, like where you find that

varies this fall versus next fall

695

: 00:30:08

Jinx: That's right.

696

: 00:30:09

The fun part about being in this

industry is just the dynamism, right?

697

: 00:30:12

And, and you know, you're exactly right.

698

: 00:30:15

Like this football season is

different than last, right?

699

: 00:30:17

There's a, there's a game on Netflix,

you know, and that didn't happen.

700

: 00:30:21

Brian: Right.

701

: 00:30:22

Jinx: we, how do we respond to that?

702

: 00:30:23

And, and I think there's a real

opportunity, quite frankly,

703

: 00:30:26

particularly on the dish side,

as this gets more complicated.

704

: 00:30:29

I talked about that customer

being So much, so much wanting

705

: 00:30:33

ease and stability and clarity.

706

: 00:30:35

Like, Hey, we have it for you.

707

: 00:30:37

It's all there.

708

: 00:30:38

Brian: Yeah.

709

: 00:30:39

John: and your own record is

saying you thinking you think

710

: 00:30:41

figuring all this out is fun.

711

: 00:30:42

So, all right.

712

: 00:30:44

Is that keeping you up?

713

: 00:30:46

Jinx: yeah, well, I mean,

I say this all the time.

714

: 00:30:47

Like if it's not fun,

why are you doing it?

715

: 00:30:49

Right.

716

: 00:30:50

So you gotta, you gotta love it.

717

: 00:30:52

You gotta love the challenge of it.

718

: 00:30:54

You gotta love the defense of it.

719

: 00:30:56

And you gotta love you know,

digging in the numbers every day.

720

: 00:30:58

Right.

721

: 00:30:59

You know, like I, I, I have

a weird, unique thing where.

722

: 00:31:03

I run marketing and, and, but I

also run a, run a channel, right?

723

: 00:31:06

I'm running a digital channel

and that's, I've done that.

724

: 00:31:08

at Comcast have done that here.

725

: 00:31:10

And, you know, in marketing, you

know, it's, let's put something out.

726

: 00:31:13

Let's test, let's, learn.

727

: 00:31:15

Let's go on the sales side.

728

: 00:31:16

It's every day I started zero.

729

: 00:31:18

Every day I have zero sales and

I got to make a number every day.

730

: 00:31:21

Right.

731

: 00:31:22

Maybe I'm special, but you have,

you have to find it fun to do that.

732

: 00:31:25

You know, like if you don't

find it fun, then, you should

733

: 00:31:27

go into accounting, I guess.

734

: 00:31:28

I don't know.

735

: 00:31:30

Brian: Where would be what would

surprise people in terms of where you're

736

: 00:31:33

finding some subs for streaming, for

example, you know, there any, Really

737

: 00:31:39

fascinating channels that people wouldn't

even think that you're finding subs.

738

: 00:31:44

Jinx: No, I mean, honestly, the biggest

thing for us is, is what's amazing

739

: 00:31:49

is people just love to watch TV.

740

: 00:31:50

So they'll come in from

all different angles.

741

: 00:31:53

When people ask me what's our media

mix, I say, basically every channel

742

: 00:31:56

we can, we can advertise on that has,

you know, that positive ROI for us.

743

: 00:32:01

What's interesting about streaming

to put in context of your listeners

744

: 00:32:05

is, our channels are analogous

to others, but, but different.

745

: 00:32:09

So, so for example, in, in the retail

environment, you have an end cap, right?

746

: 00:32:13

And you spend a lot of time thinking

about your end cap and thinking about

747

: 00:32:17

what you're merchandising on your end cap.

748

: 00:32:19

For me, that end cap is the what's

on next on your Roku, right?

749

: 00:32:24

Similarly, like when we're

merchandising on site.

750

: 00:32:28

Or in our digital flows, right?

751

: 00:32:30

We're, we're, we're working with our

partners to have the highest impact things

752

: 00:32:34

that we can talk about and highest impact

shows or highest impact players or teams.

753

: 00:32:39

So we, so we can leverage that.

754

: 00:32:40

And so, when you asked me about

FreeStream, I think what's really cool,

755

: 00:32:44

what we've seen a lot of traction with is

When people are in the free stream product

756

: 00:32:47

and then we can, we can know what they're

watching and, and and then surface,

757

: 00:32:51

relevant content, you know, you're

watching the sports free show and Oh, now

758

: 00:32:55

March madness is on making a connection

and using that creative, having that very

759

: 00:33:01

seamless buying experience has been great

for us from a acquisition perspective.

760

: 00:33:08

John: all right.

761

: 00:33:08

Can we go back a little further

in your, in your career?

762

: 00:33:10

Cause apparently according to LinkedIn,

you have a patent, which I don't think

763

: 00:33:16

a lot of marketers can claim, but

you can, can you tell us about that?

764

: 00:33:19

What, what, what kind of sexy technology

is out there with your name on it?

765

: 00:33:22

Oh,

766

: 00:33:23

Jinx: Yeah.

767

: 00:33:23

So I, yeah, so I have a couple of

patents mainly for my days, a couple,

768

: 00:33:27

couple, I just want to correct you.

769

: 00:33:29

I don't want you to.

770

: 00:33:30

John: Brian, how many patents do you have?

771

: 00:33:32

Brian: seven

772

: 00:33:33

John: Seven.

773

: 00:33:33

Oh, okay.

774

: 00:33:35

Jinx: Okay.

775

: 00:33:35

So Brian's better than me.

776

: 00:33:36

Brian wins.

777

: 00:33:36

John: rear with

778

: 00:33:37

Brian: I have no pen.

779

: 00:33:38

I have no pen.

780

: 00:33:40

Jinx: I think I

781

: 00:33:40

John: but between us, but

between us, Jinx, we have zero.

782

: 00:33:44

Jinx: Okay.

783

: 00:33:44

Well, you know, I had the good fortune of

working for JP Morgan Chase and running

784

: 00:33:48

an innovation team and at JP Morgan Chase,

the lawyers would literally seek me out

785

: 00:33:52

and be like, what are you thinking about?

786

: 00:33:54

I'm going to help you write.

787

: 00:33:55

A patent with your brilliant ideas.

788

: 00:33:57

Yeah, it was great.

789

: 00:33:58

So so I get the all the benefit of having

my name on one none of the credit because

790

: 00:34:03

jp morgan owns all the actual ip on that

so That's one thing but I but i'll say

791

: 00:34:08

The patent, the one that I'm the lead

inventor on, that I'm the most proud of,

792

: 00:34:13

was what we did for the what became the

Freedom Mobile app, which was, how do you

793

: 00:34:17

pay with your points at the point of sale?

794

: 00:34:19

And so, we basically, so we launched

Amazon Pay with Points, which, for

795

: 00:34:23

those that don't know or don't use

Amazon, you could when you, when

796

: 00:34:26

you link your credit card to Amazon,

then we immediately show your points

797

: 00:34:29

bank, and you can deduct from them.

798

: 00:34:31

John: It's awesome.

799

: 00:34:32

Jinx: And it's awesome, right?

800

: 00:34:33

Yeah.

801

: 00:34:33

I can buy some of Amazon and I can,

and I can buy it to the penny, right?

802

: 00:34:35

I can $25 and 23 cents for that really

cool head set of headphones or whatever.

803

: 00:34:41

I can do that.

804

: 00:34:42

Some of my points, it's free, right?

805

: 00:34:44

And, and and this got us, we're marketers.

806

: 00:34:46

I ran an innovation team, we're marketers.

807

: 00:34:47

We said, what's better than getting

the things you love for free?

808

: 00:34:51

Right.

809

: 00:34:52

And what's the hurdle to that?

810

: 00:34:54

Well, we want to do that in the real

world because Amazon's great, but like.

811

: 00:34:58

I don't, maybe don't love my subscribe

and save Tide Pods, but I love a

812

: 00:35:04

Starbucks coffee every morning, right?

813

: 00:35:07

Or whatever it is.

814

: 00:35:08

And so that was, so we kind of

thought about it in three ways, right?

815

: 00:35:11

We thought about it in the,

the customer need, right?

816

: 00:35:15

I love that thing, right?

817

: 00:35:18

so, so that's customer need.

818

: 00:35:19

We thought about it in the business

value because, , if you do a gift card

819

: 00:35:24

redemptions versus cashback redemptions,

that's actually more beneficial to the.

820

: 00:35:28

The financial provider because they

negotiate a big rate with Starbucks

821

: 00:35:31

to get a bunch of gift cards.

822

: 00:35:33

So it's less pennies on the dollar.

823

: 00:35:35

So that's the business value.

824

: 00:35:36

Hey, if I can move people to gift

card from cashback, that's a, that's

825

: 00:35:40

a benefit to the business and it's

a customer value that they like.

826

: 00:35:42

So it's a win win.

827

: 00:35:44

Then the last, the third leg of the

story, I guess, is like the technology.

828

: 00:35:47

Like, does it exist?

829

: 00:35:48

Like, can we actually do that?

830

: 00:35:50

And so we looked to Starbucks and

we spent a bunch of time with them.

831

: 00:35:54

Their app basically does that.

832

: 00:35:55

It hacks a gift card.

833

: 00:35:57

Every time you pre load 20 gift card that

they're serving up for you in the end.

834

: 00:36:01

So we're like, wait a minute,

there's a technology solution to

835

: 00:36:04

a customer need and a business.

836

: 00:36:06

Need.

837

: 00:36:07

So the intersection of that was

what we did with the, what it

838

: 00:36:09

became the freedom mobile app now.

839

: 00:36:11

And then it rolled into the chase

app and chase pay and all the,

840

: 00:36:14

all the stuff they've done since.

841

: 00:36:15

But and it was just that it was, Hey,

look, I'm going to go to Starbucks.

842

: 00:36:19

I'm going to buy something

for 5 and 83 cents.

843

: 00:36:21

I can pull up this app.

844

: 00:36:23

I can punch in 5.

845

: 00:36:24

83 in real time immediately,

delivers a gift card via barcode.

846

: 00:36:29

Customer doesn't know that.

847

: 00:36:30

They just think it's a barcode.

848

: 00:36:31

Scan it.

849

: 00:36:32

Boom.

850

: 00:36:32

Get my coffee.

851

: 00:36:33

I'm out.

852

: 00:36:34

John: That's awesome.

853

: 00:36:35

Very cool.

854

: 00:36:36

Well, I'm jealous, not just because

you have a patent, but because you

855

: 00:36:38

had lawyers chasing you down for,

you know, things that are beneficial.

856

: 00:36:43

I just had lawyers chasing me down

to add more disclaimers to things.

857

: 00:36:47

Jinx: That's right.

858

: 00:36:48

Well, I have that too.

859

: 00:36:49

You know, exactly.

860

: 00:36:50

So, we can all commiserate on that one.

861

: 00:36:55

John: I

862

: 00:36:55

Jinx: yeah, no, it was a fun time.

863

: 00:37:00

Well, pharma, so apologies

to all the pharma listeners.

864

: 00:37:03

John: Fair enough.

865

: 00:37:05

Jinx: My favorite, if you want to

talk about innovation, my favorite

866

: 00:37:08

innovation, if you haven't seen it is.

867

: 00:37:10

Now display ads have scroll bars

just to get through all of the

868

: 00:37:14

flamers on a, on a display ad.

869

: 00:37:17

So, I mean, if our click through rate

wasn't bad enough, like, come on.

870

: 00:37:23

Brian: Jinx it'd be great to hear

our listeners to hear just a little

871

: 00:37:26

bit more about how you've kind of

worked your way through the marketing

872

: 00:37:28

industry and e commerce and how

you got to where you're at now.

873

: 00:37:33

Jinx: Yeah.

874

: 00:37:33

No, I'm happy.

875

: 00:37:33

I'm happy to talk about that.

876

: 00:37:34

I think you guys have led big

teams and all that kind of stuff.

877

: 00:37:37

I think when you have, when you have

a big team and an organization that

878

: 00:37:41

looks you for leadership, like it's.

879

: 00:37:43

It behooves you to spend the

time with them to, to, to

880

: 00:37:45

mentor them and talk to them.

881

: 00:37:47

And, and so I talked to my team

a lot about this actually have

882

: 00:37:51

throughout my organization, have

one on ones with everyone on the

883

: 00:37:53

team at least once a quarter.

884

: 00:37:55

You know, my directs and stuff regularly,

et cetera, but, but literally just

885

: 00:37:59

to focus on career for, especially

for some of the junior folks that,

886

: 00:38:02

you know, like think about us.

887

: 00:38:05

Yeah, help them navigate.

888

: 00:38:05

We just, we were just

figuring it out, right?

889

: 00:38:07

So if there's anything I can do

to give them a nudge or give them

890

: 00:38:10

the purview of connecting the

dots for them I'd love to do that.

891

: 00:38:14

So,

892

: 00:38:15

John: Have you always had

that across your career?

893

: 00:38:17

Has someone done that for you or did

you kind of learn this by not having it?

894

: 00:38:20

Jinx: You know, it's interesting.

895

: 00:38:21

I think I was actually reflecting on

this, like, I don't think I've had a boss

896

: 00:38:26

that's done this, and maybe it's kind of

insane to dab one on ones with everybody,

897

: 00:38:30

but I still think it's important.

898

: 00:38:32

But at like Chase, for example,

the the CEO of Card at the

899

: 00:38:36

time said, My door's open.

900

: 00:38:37

You, anyone can schedule.

901

: 00:38:41

And I, and I never took advantage

of that with her and, and I had a,

902

: 00:38:44

like a big regret, you know, and I,

I got to meet her and, and we worked

903

: 00:38:48

together and it was, it was fine.

904

: 00:38:49

And then it'd be fine.

905

: 00:38:50

But like, I always had this big

regret because I was like, no, I'm

906

: 00:38:54

not important enough to talk to her.

907

: 00:38:55

I don't have enough to

talk about, et cetera.

908

: 00:38:57

So, you know, for me, forcing

the issue, quite frankly, and

909

: 00:39:01

telling the people that come to my

office, like, this is your time.

910

: 00:39:05

I will, if you want to talk about, Okay.

911

: 00:39:07

You know, music for half an hour

or whatever for, I'll do that.

912

: 00:39:11

But I think the best use of your time

in mind is to talk about your career and

913

: 00:39:15

how I can help you and how you know, I

can answer questions for you, et cetera.

914

: 00:39:20

And so that's, that's sort

of where that was born from.

915

: 00:39:22

John: That's terrific.

916

: 00:39:23

They're, they're lucky to have you.

917

: 00:39:24

That's great.

918

: 00:39:25

You take that proactive stance.

919

: 00:39:26

And I remember same thing,

Brian, I'm guessing you do too.

920

: 00:39:29

It was always intimidating to kind

of be the initiator with the senior

921

: 00:39:33

person to ask about your career.

922

: 00:39:34

So it's great that you're,

you're being the initiator.

923

: 00:39:38

Jinx: Yeah.

924

: 00:39:39

I think, you know, what I tell them

a lot too, is like, you asked me

925

: 00:39:42

more specifically, how did I get

to where I got to, which might be

926

: 00:39:46

boring for your listeners, but, but,

but I'll say I, I graduated from

927

: 00:39:50

the university of Pittsburgh with a.

928

: 00:39:52

with a degree in physics and music,

which means I was prepared for nothing.

929

: 00:39:56

That's literally, I was prepared to

be a graduate student and I didn't

930

: 00:39:59

want to be a graduate student.

931

: 00:40:01

I was fortunate to get some

roles and then, and then

932

: 00:40:04

skilled to take those roles.

933

: 00:40:07

and make the most of them.

934

: 00:40:08

And that's sort of how I

landed in the innovation role.

935

: 00:40:11

That's sort of how I got to Comcast where

I had the great fortune of meeting John.

936

: 00:40:16

That's how I got to lead e commerce

for Comcast and report to the CMO.

937

: 00:40:20

And that's how I, I got to be here.

938

: 00:40:22

And the thing I always say to the people

that come to my office that asked for

939

: 00:40:27

that advice, or how did I get here

or whatever, Is a couple of things.

940

: 00:40:33

One, when, when you were in college,

when you were in high school, right?

941

: 00:40:37

Like you practiced, like,

what did you play to sport?

942

: 00:40:40

You play an instrument, whatever you

practice far more than you played.

943

: 00:40:44

Right.

944

: 00:40:45

You would, I mean, I was a drummer

and I practice eight hours a day and

945

: 00:40:48

I play a two hour gig and then I would

go and I'm practicing, you know, when

946

: 00:40:52

we get in the workforce, we start

at nine, we end at five, we come in

947

: 00:40:56

at nine and we expect to let change

the world until five and then leave.

948

: 00:41:00

Like, that's not how it works.

949

: 00:41:01

Like you have to put in the time,

like you have to treat it like, yeah,

950

: 00:41:06

like you're, you're craft, right?

951

: 00:41:08

That's why you know, I joke, but

it's like, if you look, if you don't

952

: 00:41:10

love it, why, why are you doing it?

953

: 00:41:12

Cause you, you have to

give it that much, right.

954

: 00:41:14

If you want to succeed.

955

: 00:41:15

And so that's the thing I talk

about and, and, and practice means

956

: 00:41:18

something different in the workforce.

957

: 00:41:19

Like.

958

: 00:41:20

Practice means networking.

959

: 00:41:22

Practice means talking to the finance

guy and understanding the P& L.

960

: 00:41:26

Practice means spending time with the

presentation and then road showing

961

: 00:41:29

it so when you finally take it to the

senior leader, you're polished, right?

962

: 00:41:33

Like, it means something different,

but it's the same concept.

963

: 00:41:36

, and then the other thing I talk about

is I really haven't said no to anything.

964

: 00:41:41

You know, like, you know, when stuff comes

at me, I just, I don't, I don't say no.

965

: 00:41:45

I was a physics and music teacher.

966

: 00:41:47

I, you know my first job actually

was selling stuff door to door.

967

: 00:41:51

Cause I, I, I responded

to an ad for a marketer.

968

: 00:41:54

Cause I, first of all, I

wasn't prepared for anything.

969

: 00:41:55

So I was like, I can do marketing.

970

: 00:41:57

I, I was painting out flyers for my band.

971

: 00:41:59

I must do it.

972

: 00:42:00

Yeah, exactly.

973

: 00:42:02

Right.

974

: 00:42:02

You know, we get a bad track here, but,

but seriously, I was like, you know, I

975

: 00:42:06

hadn't handed out flyers for my band.

976

: 00:42:07

So I, Oh, can you mark, okay.

977

: 00:42:09

Marketer.

978

: 00:42:10

Needed marketer must

wear comfortable shoes.

979

: 00:42:13

So, so also advice.

980

: 00:42:14

If it ever says comfortable shoes,

that means you're going door to door.

981

: 00:42:16

And so so yeah, I did it

and, and it was horrible.

982

: 00:42:19

Like it was terrible like that.

983

: 00:42:21

But what it allowed me to do was a, it

was a, I had a piece of conversation

984

: 00:42:25

that for my next job, which was more

of like a startup, and I, and I kind

985

: 00:42:28

of knew the owner of this company.

986

: 00:42:30

And he was a mentor of mine.

987

: 00:42:31

I like had a sit down with him and I

was talking about how bad this stuff is.

988

: 00:42:33

Like, why don't you come work for me?

989

: 00:42:34

And I was like, wait, I never

thought that was a thing.

990

: 00:42:36

Like, I don't, I'm not

prepared to do anything.

991

: 00:42:37

He's like, would you do this, this, this?

992

: 00:42:39

I was like, yep.

993

: 00:42:39

He's like, go.

994

: 00:42:40

Right.

995

: 00:42:41

And, and it's funny too, because I still

think about that sales role every time

996

: 00:42:45

I'm trying to pump up a sales team.

997

: 00:42:47

Cause I, that's the one thing

I did learn in that role.

998

: 00:42:49

And so, you know, you

track that all the way to.

999

: 00:42:52

Hey, do you, you know, do you want to

be in this rotational program at Chase?

: 1000

00:42:56,927 --> 00:42:57,417

Sure.

: 1001

00:42:57,487 --> 00:42:57,957

Yes.

: 1002

00:42:58,127 --> 00:43:00,757

Oh, Hey, actually, there's

this other cool job.

: 1003

00:43:00,767 --> 00:43:01,217

Do you want to do that?

: 1004

00:43:01,227 --> 00:43:01,597

Yes.

: 1005

00:43:01,637 --> 00:43:04,837

Oh, do you want to, you want to work

in, in digital advertising at Comcast?

: 1006

00:43:04,837 --> 00:43:05,777

Well, I never did that before.

: 1007

00:43:05,777 --> 00:43:06,087

Yes.

: 1008

00:43:06,107 --> 00:43:07,897

Do you want to work in e commerce?

: 1009

00:43:07,977 --> 00:43:08,697

I never did that before.

: 1010

00:43:08,697 --> 00:43:09,057

Yes.

: 1011

00:43:09,087 --> 00:43:11,337

And like, it, it just compounds in itself.

: 1012

00:43:11,337 --> 00:43:13,317

And, and you know, Steve Jobs

has a great quote, right?

: 1013

00:43:13,317 --> 00:43:15,497

Like the, the dots connect

themselves in hindsight.

: 1014

00:43:16,057 --> 00:43:17,817

That's really the way, the way I feel.

: 1015

00:43:17,817 --> 00:43:21,447

And I think I'm jealous of the people

like doctors and stuff that are like,

: 1016

00:43:21,867 --> 00:43:23,327

I know exactly, Oh, I want to be that.

: 1017

00:43:23,357 --> 00:43:24,347

And I'm going to do that.

: 1018

00:43:24,347 --> 00:43:26,877

And, but, but, but that wasn't me.

: 1019

00:43:26,877 --> 00:43:31,697

And so, but for me, it's, you got

to put the work in and just, you

: 1020

00:43:31,697 --> 00:43:35,607

know, don't say yes to stuff that,

that puts you out of your value

: 1021

00:43:35,607 --> 00:43:37,557

system, but, but otherwise say yes.

: 1022

00:43:39,982 --> 00:43:40,432

Brian: Love that.

: 1023

00:43:40,432 --> 00:43:40,562

Love that.

: 1024

00:43:40,687 --> 00:43:41,047

John: Yeah.

: 1025

00:43:41,127 --> 00:43:41,507

Love it.

: 1026

00:43:44,087 --> 00:43:47,837

Well, Jinx, you've been so generous with

your time and covered a lot of territory.

: 1027

00:43:47,837 --> 00:43:50,027

We're really grateful

for your time with us.

: 1028

00:43:51,167 --> 00:43:54,647

Brian, anything you you need to ask

Jinx before we let him, let him free?

: 1029

00:43:55,292 --> 00:43:57,792

Brian: no, just thank you for

Thanks for taking the time.

: 1030

00:43:57,792 --> 00:44:01,562

And it was great hearing about what

you're doing with, with those two brands.

: 1031

00:44:01,562 --> 00:44:02,892

And we love this industry.

: 1032

00:44:02,892 --> 00:44:07,252

We want to see where it goes the next

couple of years and how, you know,

: 1033

00:44:07,782 --> 00:44:12,662

consumers may change constantly and, and,

you know, how you guys react to that.

: 1034

00:44:12,662 --> 00:44:13,672

So thanks again.

: 1035

00:44:15,147 --> 00:44:15,677

Jinx: No, I appreciate it.

: 1036

00:44:15,677 --> 00:44:16,527

Thanks for having me.

: 1037

00:44:16,627 --> 00:44:17,697

I love the work you guys do.

: 1038

00:44:17,707 --> 00:44:18,547

I love being on here.

: 1039

00:44:18,547 --> 00:44:19,577

I love talking about this stuff.

: 1040

00:44:19,967 --> 00:44:22,897

I obviously could talk about

it all day because I do, but

: 1041

00:44:22,997 --> 00:44:24,217

but it's been really great.

: 1042

00:44:24,552 --> 00:44:24,782

John: All right.

: 1043

00:44:24,782 --> 00:44:28,172

Well, maybe we'll do a follow up

episode that just follows you around for

: 1044

00:44:28,172 --> 00:44:29,522

eight hours and see if anyone listens.

: 1045

00:44:30,067 --> 00:44:30,457

Jinx: That's right.

: 1046

00:44:31,067 --> 00:44:31,237

We'll see.

: 1047

00:44:31,297 --> 00:44:31,797

We'll see.

: 1048

00:44:34,252 --> 00:44:36,082

John: All right, Jinx, thank you so much.

: 1049

00:44:36,182 --> 00:44:36,822

You be well.

: 1050

00:44:36,822 --> 00:44:38,012

Good luck with everything you're doing.

: 1051

00:44:38,557 --> 00:44:38,757

Jinx: All right.

: 1052

00:44:38,767 --> 00:44:39,487

Have a great time guys.

: 1053

00:44:39,487 --> 00:44:42,427

And good luck to all your listeners

and keep following these guys.

: 1054

00:44:42,427 --> 00:44:43,177

They're doing great stuff.

: 1055

00:44:43,252 --> 00:44:43,922

John: Ah, thanks, man.

: 1056

00:44:44,162 --> 00:44:44,602

Brian: Thank you.

: 1057

00:44:47,008 --> 00:44:48,178

John: Brian, that was Jinx.

: 1058

00:44:48,778 --> 00:44:49,408

Good dude, huh?

: 1059

00:44:49,678 --> 00:44:49,968

Brian: Yeah.

: 1060

00:44:50,028 --> 00:44:50,528

He's awesome.

: 1061

00:44:50,828 --> 00:44:51,128

John: Yeah.

: 1062

00:44:51,218 --> 00:44:51,768

He's a neat guy.

: 1063

00:44:52,038 --> 00:44:52,668

Really smart.

: 1064

00:44:52,938 --> 00:44:53,258

Yeah.

: 1065

00:44:53,328 --> 00:44:57,138

I think he makes some, he, he made

a lot of really complicated things.

: 1066

00:44:57,148 --> 00:44:57,738

Sound simple.

: 1067

00:44:58,058 --> 00:45:01,558

And I tell you, one of the things I

really appreciated was he said a few times

: 1068

00:45:01,688 --> 00:45:03,438

you know, you gotta love what you do.

: 1069

00:45:04,278 --> 00:45:04,638

Brian: Yeah.

: 1070

00:45:04,888 --> 00:45:05,148

John: Yeah.

: 1071

00:45:05,258 --> 00:45:05,578

Nice.

: 1072

00:45:05,748 --> 00:45:09,538

And I just wanted to say, Brian,

I love podcasting with you.

: 1073

00:45:09,628 --> 00:45:10,138

How about that?

: 1074

00:45:11,768 --> 00:45:12,788

Brian: I do as well.

: 1075

00:45:13,038 --> 00:45:15,158

John: How about that for a tender

moment here on Snap Decisions.

: 1076

00:45:17,588 --> 00:45:18,888

Brian: Intimate, tender moment.

: 1077

00:45:19,298 --> 00:45:20,068

Thank you, John.

: 1078

00:45:20,118 --> 00:45:21,738

I love podcasting with you as well.

: 1079

00:45:21,898 --> 00:45:22,288

John: Nice.

: 1080

00:45:23,048 --> 00:45:24,278

Let's keep doing it then.

: 1081

00:45:24,948 --> 00:45:28,298

We'll take, we'll use, we'll

take Jinx's advice and we will

: 1082

00:45:28,388 --> 00:45:29,448

continue doing what we love.

: 1083

00:45:30,198 --> 00:45:30,858

Brian: All right.

: 1084

00:45:31,138 --> 00:45:31,648

All right.

: 1085

00:45:31,868 --> 00:45:32,318

I'm in.

: 1086

00:45:32,318 --> 00:45:32,478

John: All right.

: 1087

00:45:32,518 --> 00:45:35,248

Well, let's continue it into

our next episode coming soon.

: 1088

00:45:35,748 --> 00:45:36,148

Brian: All right.

: 1089

00:45:36,198 --> 00:45:37,038

I'll talk to you later.

: 1090

00:45:37,298 --> 00:45:37,778

John: All right, man.

: 1091

00:45:37,988 --> 00:45:38,358

Bye.

: 1092

00:45:38,358 --> 00:45:38,937

Brian: Bye.

Share Episode

Shownotes

Transcripts

Follow

Links

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube