What happens when success no longer feels quite right?

In this episode of People Soup, Ross speaks with organisational psychologist, consultant and author Dr Joanne Gray.

Joe shares the story of a major career transition that took her from a senior corporate leadership role into the world of business psychology and consulting. Along the way, she reflects on the warning signs she experienced, the role of values in shaping career decisions, and the moment she realised something had to change.

The conversation then explores Joe's work on workplace proactivity – what it really means, why organisations often struggle to create the conditions for it, and how leaders can unintentionally shut it down.

You'll also hear a simple and practical framework that can help us think about taking action when something matters.

In this episode

• Joanne's journey from corporate leadership to organisational psychology
• Recognising the signs of exhaustion and burnout
• What happens when workplace culture no longer aligns with your values
• Why proactivity is more than simply being helpful
• The difference between reactive and proactive work
• Why proactivity can sometimes become another workplace demand
• The Can Do, Reason To, Energised To framework
• Leadership, psychological safety and fairness
• Joanne's walk-on music choice

A question to reflect on

When you're considering a change, taking initiative or speaking up, ask yourself:

• Can I do it?
• Do I have a reason to do it?
• Do I have the energy to do it?

Walk-on Music

Everybody's Free (To Feel Good) – Rozalla

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Joanne Grey

[00:00:22] Jo's work explores what helps people take initiative, create positive change, and speak up at work. But as you'll [00:00:30] hear, this isn't simply a conversation about being more proactive. It's also a conversation about career transitions, values, burnout, and recognizing when [00:00:40] something in our working lives no longer feels quite right Along the way, Jo shares some powerful reflections from her own career journey, including the signs that told her it was [00:00:50] time for a major change, and some practical ideas that can help us think differently about taking action when something matters.

[00:01:06] Ross: Dr. Joanne Gray, welcome to People [00:01:10] Soup

[00:01:13] Ross: Well, it's lovely to have you here. And I'd like to start, Jo, just by helping us get to know you a little bit. Maybe if you [00:01:20] tell us a little bit about your career so far

[00:01:39] And [00:01:40] it was about 11 years ago that I decided to have a quite a significant career transition and left the corporate world and [00:01:50] set up my own consultancy. And originally it was around kind of marketing business strategy, and then realized the thing I was really passionate about was people [00:02:00] and work, and the work experiences people have.

[00:02:12] Um, I don't know if you remember. You came and did that amazing ACT session with us and, I loved that master's.

[00:02:37] Transitions

[00:02:48] Joanne: Yeah. I was actually just [00:02:50] reflecting on this the other day.

[00:03:13] Ross: Can I take you back to, was it the 40th when you left your corporate career

[00:03:23] Ross: Can you tell me a bit more about that? what led up to the transition?

[00:03:27] this is, this is an interesting one, and hey, I've had, [00:03:30] I've had 11 years to kind of create a narrative around it, and I do reflect back, and I guess what's really interesting now as I look back at that period [00:03:40] with names and labels of experiences because of doing the, organizational psychology, doctorate, I now can go, "Oh, that's what I was experiencing."

[00:04:06] I was trying to be a brilliant daughter. I was trying to be a brilliant boss. [00:04:10] And, as in all cases, when you are being pulled in so many directions, the person you kind of don't focus on is yourself. And it, it started to become evident to the world [00:04:20] around me that, that those demands, I genuinely didn't have the resources to, to match them, and I was, certainly heading for exhaustion, possibly burnout.[00:04:30]

[00:04:55] But it was obviously cumulative. It was building up. but eventually it was like, okay, [00:05:00] a new year's coming up. I'm about to turn 40 next year. I need to do something radically different. And that's, that's kind of the, the story that I have now told myself. As I [00:05:10] said, I'm sure, you know, we all, we all tell our own narratives, but I, as I said to you, I love work, but sometimes, you know, that means you can have trouble managing [00:05:20] boundaries, which certainly I had got to in my corporate career. so that probably didn't help.

[00:05:37] Joanne: Yeah. Yeah

[00:05:42] directions how long did that cumulative period last now you're looking back on it?

[00:06:11] So, and I, and I was really mindfully aware in a year's time my daughter's gonna go to school and I'm going to be living with regret. So there [00:06:20] was that, that was about probably a year and a half before, uh, uh, my daughter started school. But it was about a year before I made the decision that this is too much.

[00:06:44] And then started having other kind of health things. I had tension in my neck, that was coming through in my [00:06:50] hands. I went to see a osteopath and it was like, "You're breathing from your chest. You're not breathing from your diaphragm. That's someone who's, under extreme stress. That's now having an impact on [00:07:00] your whole body."

[00:07:17] Ross: And you mentioned there seemed to be some sort of [00:07:20] values drift.

[00:07:21] So the organization I was working for was going through a lot of change. It had gone through a lot of change. We weren't performing very well, [00:07:30] and that didn't bring out the best in people when there's, when you're under a lot of pressure. We were, we had a reporting line to the US and, [00:07:40] I think that created some behaviors in others that didn't sit well with me in terms of the way you treat people.[00:07:50]

[00:08:07] So that was the straw that broke the camel's back, seeing [00:08:10] a colleague being treated in a way that I did not believe was okay

[00:08:25] Joanne: Do you know what? I actually felt, I remember after [00:08:30] I made that decision and, you know, conveyed my intentions... I tell you what, um, there's a, there was a really poignant part. So I mean, you know, you talk about working from 12. My [00:08:40] parents have a very strong work ethic, and I almost was worried to tell them I was gonna, leave my corporate role.

[00:09:05] That speaks volumes. He was like, "My mum and we have been so worried about you. [00:09:10] We are so pleased you... That's what you're doing." So that then gave me, okay, my husband is absolute s- superstar, always been so supportive. So [00:09:20] I had s- I had support from the people, my cheerleaders, and that meant a lot.

[00:09:42] So, yeah, it was more a feeling of relief and excitement than intrepidation.[00:09:50]

[00:09:53] Joanne: yeah

[00:10:04] Joanne: I remember speaking to Alma McDowell, professor at Birkbeck, because I was like, "I don't want [00:10:10] this to finish, so I don't know what to do 'cause I'm just enjoying it so much." And she was the one that alerted me to the professional doctorate.

[00:10:27] he showed a tiny little, uh, inkling of interest and I was [00:10:30] like, "Right. Come on, let's do this. Let's do this together."

[00:10:45] Ross: Now, Jo, I want to move on to think about how you apply psychology [00:10:50] in your, in your work and your life,

[00:10:55] Joanne: Oh, yes. So my, my book is called "Powering Workplace Proactivity: [00:11:00] How to Create a Future-Focused, Change-Oriented Culture." And it's, it's based on some of my thesis.

[00:11:33] What does proactivity mean?

[00:11:38] Joanne: Yeah

[00:11:40] Joanne: Yeah, and it's, it's very interesting actually, that really came through in my research. You know, sometimes people were getting proactivity confused with, you know, if, if someone o- someone [00:11:50] asks for help, you put your hand up. I mean, that, that actually is just being a really good citizen and helpful and, you know, nice volunteer.

[00:12:17] And I'm trying to spread the word, that [00:12:20] actually it's not always easy. if the culture in the organization or if there's a, a kind of sense of fear within an organization or there's a way of doing things that, you know, actually [00:12:30] sometimes proactive people can be seen as disruptive and actually not welcome with all open arms.

[00:12:48] I'm gonna do it to you, in fact. [00:12:50] Think of an adjective.

[00:12:55] Joanne: Ja

[00:13:04] Joanne: Wow. It g- yeah. And that is that kind of, I feel valued, I feel heard, [00:13:10] I feel, you know, it, it can make people feel great. And then I flip the question, and has there been a time where that has felt stifled? You know, you've come up with a great [00:13:20] idea and you're not being heard, or it's being closed down

[00:13:27] Joanne: Yeah. So there's a real [00:13:30] connection with when I feel empowered, heard, valued, all of those, you know, it makes us feel good, yet, you know, when we're in environments where [00:13:40] no one wants to do that or it's not a good idea or, you know, it, it becomes... people become disengaged. So that's my mission, is to try [00:13:50] and create more of those euphoric moments and recognizing there's a lot the environment and people within the environment can do.

[00:13:58] Ross: Why did [00:14:00] proactivity really pique your interest?

[00:14:05] it was one of those, it's suddenly coming up in lots of fields that I'm [00:14:10] looking at and I'm researching and I'm interested in, and I would describe myself as someone who's embodies proactivity, shall we say. which has served me well, and [00:14:20] I've had some scars as well. So, that kinda just got me like, this feels like something that really resonates with me.

[00:14:32] And I mean, I've read now several hundred papers, looking into proactivity at [00:14:40] work, and I'm still enjoying it.

[00:15:04] Joanne: I created an acronym PROACTIV, and there's nine dimensions that I speak about in my book. So P is [00:15:10] psychological safety, But the time one is really interesting, that's the one that's really coming up as people feeling really time-pressured, [00:15:20] and guess what? When we're time-pressured, we're more likely to be doing that reactive work.

[00:15:39] Ross: [00:15:40] Absolutely agree that people can become so immersed in the habitual routines of, the business as usual or the firefighting

[00:15:50] Joanne: Yeah. And it's very easy to justify, but we've gotta put those fires out, and it's kinda like, but, you know, actually some of the fires are being created because actually some work needs to be done [00:16:00] to stop the fires being created. But, you know, so that requires some proactive effort. If we keep putting fires out because actually there's something in the system that needs to be fixed, [00:16:10] you're gonna just keep putting the fires out unless you fix it.

[00:16:25] Ross: And thinking about yourself, 'cause you describe yourself as a, a [00:16:30] naturally quite proactive person, can you think of a time when you found it difficult yourself to be proactive?

[00:16:51] This is Sharon Parker's work. I refer to it often, and I refer to it for myself often. Can do, reason to, energize to. [00:17:00] So, I've got a great idea. I wanna, make this change within work. The can do, have I got the confidence, that self-efficacy? Have I got, you know, have I got the skills, the [00:17:10] knowledge, the ability?

[00:17:28] Then the next one, the reason [00:17:30] to. Am I motivated? What's, what's my motivation? Is this important to me? Does, is it something that, again, aligns to my values or not? Am I doing it because I think [00:17:40] people think I should, or am I doing it because I want to? So that, you know, the whole motivation piece around that. And then the last one, energize to, if we haven't got the [00:17:50] energy, you're just not gonna get off the starting block. So with that in mind, I now look at times when I have kind of decided not to kind of, you know, just [00:18:00] to live with that, and I've kind of realized often it is actually either because I don't care enough or actually I just haven't got the energy for that right now.

[00:18:31] But I think it also acts as a, a little bit of self-compassion lever to kind of go, "Actually, it's not that important to me, [00:18:40] so I'm not gonna be proactive in this instance."

[00:18:49] [00:18:50] Because it struck me that There could be a risk that proactivity becomes another demand.

[00:18:57] And actually that's reminded me of a study, and I, I'm, [00:19:00] I'm not great at remembering authors' names, but there was a study where it's almost where it becomes almost an expectation like a c- a compulsory proactivity, [00:19:10] that that's when people's reason to starts not being their own.

[00:19:30] So there's, there is some psychological consequences with that

[00:19:46] Joanne: Well, I wish I could say yes to that, [00:19:50] because actually what I'm finding is It's, it almost feels like quite a big thing I'm asking for people to, you know, evaluate and think [00:20:00] about is your environment right. And I, I started getting a bit despondent actually at the end of last year 'cause I'm kinda like, "I see this, you know, I, I really see this.

[00:20:36] And actually, with... Although I'm not necessarily going, "Oh, [00:20:40] I've got a framework for that," but I can start to see, oh, okay, you know, you've got someone, you're going through a transformation and you've got some relational dynamics at play because [00:20:50] you've got some team members who are quite wedded to the status quo, and you've got others who are massive openness to change, and their job is to transform, and that's creating some [00:21:00] tension.

[00:21:05] Joanne: if I'm, I'm having a conversation with a potential client and they're talking through some of the challenges they're [00:21:10] facing, you know, I will then be asking questions around, "Well, what's, what are people's perceptions around fairness? Are people treated fairly?

[00:21:30] So I've got a whole chapter on values and motivation. I've been doing a lot of work in that space, helping teams realize that they are going to be driven by different things. There will be some common [00:21:40] ground, but there will be differences, and we need to, one, be aware of it, and two, acknowledge that that's, that's okay.

[00:21:46] Ross: Hmm. just taking us back a little to proactivity, is there [00:21:50] one thing leaders do unintentionally that can really shut down proactivity in your experience?

[00:22:22] So, so there's, there's definitely... You know, it's one of those buzzwords that gets a lot of air time, but I think, [00:22:30] you know, genuinely to create a space where people can speak up, but actually take some accountability. Um, so I think that's the, you know, there's, there's that bit. [00:22:40] And then fairness, within the research, often leaders see fairness as like distributive fairness, as in rewards and recognition, or [00:22:50] not even recognition, but rewards, and not necessarily seeing that, you know, by having your good soldiers that you always give the good work to because they're at the front of the queue with their hand up and tend to be [00:23:00] very proactive, that is having a negative consequence for other people in the team who actually are, are perceiving that actually this [00:23:10] isn't, doesn't feel very fair around here.

[00:23:28] Ross: Hmm, lovely Now, Joe, there's [00:23:30] a question I ask all my guests, and that's for their walk-on music, this bit of music that would announce their arrival in a room. And I wonder if you've got a piece of music and, and, and tell us [00:23:40] why

[00:23:56] so my, my song is Everybody's [00:24:00] Free, in brackets, by Rozalla.

[00:24:24] So Everybody's Free, obviously for me, as someone who believes everyone [00:24:30] should have the opportunity to feel empowered and make choices, that mean, that speaks a lot. And then to feel good, 'cause you know, for me, again, you know, I- I'm [00:24:40] optimistic. I think there's a real kind of energy in the song, and actually when you listen to all the lyrics, it is about having belief in helping people kind of thrive, [00:24:50] and I think that really resonates with my purpose.

[00:25:00] Ross: Beautiful. And no doubt some moves as well,

[00:25:05] Ross: Excellent. And just to, just to finish off, Joe, really [00:25:10] is

[00:25:17] Joanne: I start with a can-do reason to energize [00:25:20] to And if you are ticking the boxes on can-do reason to energize to, then great, go for it. If you're not, then think [00:25:30] about what do I need to do to be able to tick that box. So if, you know, if, if it is a can-do and it's about lack of confidence, then, you know, have a, have a chat with someone about [00:25:40] I've got a bit of an idea.

[00:25:51] so I think, you know, doing, doing that can-do reason to energize to is, is a really great starting point. I would then just [00:26:00] say, you know, go back to my point, all proactivity is not good proactivity. So also be aware of the context, be aware of the [00:26:10] impact that your... actions are gonna have on someone else.

[00:26:31] So do your groundwork, be thoughtful about it before going all guns blazing.

[00:26:41] People's

[00:26:44] Joanne: Likewise, and thank you. I've, I've thoroughly enjoyed it

[00:27:11] Can do, reason to, energized to. three useful prompts whenever we're thinking about making a change, taking initiative, [00:27:20] or stepping towards something that matters As ever, thanks for listening and thanks for sharing People Soup with others. You're helping us bring evidence-based ideas to [00:27:30] more people.

[00:27:35]