Do you want to understand the importance of effective feedback?

In the latest episode of Happier at Work, I had the pleasure to be joined by Caroline Collins, an experienced HR professional and psychology expert, to delve into the intricate dynamics of workplace culture, fit and feedback. This insightful conversation sheds light on the challenges and opportunities presented by cultural change, the significance of evaluating workplace fit, and the transformative power of effective feedback.

Caroline highlights the importance of thoroughly evaluating whether a workplace is the right fit, emphasising that every part of the recruitment process provides valuable data. We explore the impact of organisational decisions on individuals, differential expectations between employees, and the need for leader training in culture, inclusivity, and empathy.

This episode highlights the significance of delivering feedback in a direct, kind manner, and underscores the difference between feedback and gossip.

Today’s episode will provide you with practical insights into navigating workplace dynamics and fostering a positive, inclusive culture.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The intricate dynamics of workplace culture, fit and feedback.
• The transformative power of effective feedback.
• The impact of organisational decisions on individuals. 
• Practical insights into navigating workplace dynamics and fostering a positive, inclusive culture.

Connect with Caroline

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coffeeandswim/

LinkedIn: http://ie.linkedin.com/in/cazcollins

Twitter: https://x.com/CoffeeAndSwim?t=k0N95-BpuzNo7zFN8gs_dA&s=03.

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappierAtWorkHQ

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 

Caroline, you're so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I know you're a long term listener, a long term fan, so really decide I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. And I'm trying to even remember how we connected in the 1st place. I think it was, like, a random connection on LinkedIn maybe, but

I think it was your LinkedIn post.

Yeah. We had a conversation, and you just couldn't shook the 2 of us up when we when we got into a conversation. So it was brilliant. Just a really nice alignment of of values there, I think, as well. So do you want to explain a little bit about your work history and how you got to where you are today.

Sure. And thanks for having me on. I'm having that moment of long time long time listener, first time caller. Yes. Radio show. I my background is originally in psychology, and I was always interested in how people's behavior impact different parts of their lives. And it was very probably always going to end up in business somehow, but I went on and did a doctorate in culture change, and I think there's a lot of learnings From that that can be applied to now, the world of work. It's it's funny.

When I started my career and I was in my twenties, nobody knew quite what to do with the whole concept of culture and humans and working together in office. And it feels a post pandemic, that conversation has really taken off where we're talking about the culture piece. We're talking about future work. We're talking about how people can be the best of themselves and bring their their you know, the diversity piece, their full selves to work. So it feels like finally it's come into its own. I've worked in HR for over 15 years at this stage. So everything from the public sector Right the way through to start ups and tech, mostly with a feel on health and biotechnology and pharma, but I also worked in management consultancy in the financial services sector. To me, the massive learning and takeaway is the commonality.

So, yes, sectors are different. Some of them are regulated. Some of them are not. Obviously, your commercial focus is different, but people showing up to a place of work and now whether that's in a brick building or virtually, What they expect from work, how you motivate them, how you engage them, there's such commonality, I think, for as long as we're working with people that that's really the the piece that excites me.

So is it is it to say really that we're all humans? And no matter where you're showing up to work on a day to day basis, be that in a physical office, in where wherever you go to work or whether it's signing up, or signing in virtually, that we're all people at the end of the day. And Yeah. You know, it's just really understanding that across the board, it's all the same. And it's understanding, and we'll get into that now in a second. I think the this idea of using psychology and understanding human human behavior and applying that in the workplace to I was gonna say to get the most from your people, but that's not just about what it what it's about, it's about getting the most from your people, but also creating that environment that people themselves are really happy to work clear that they feel motivated, that they feel fulfilled by the work that they do. And at the end of the day, the business sees results at the end, you know, at as a result of that.

Yeah. And no. None of us just check our personalities or our stuff that might be going on in life or at home. We don't check that in a bag in the morning when we log on or when we walk into an office. And so some understanding as to how does that play a role, how does that motivate us, how does that impact performance for good and sometimes for bad. All of that understanding is is important. What's interesting is that the transactional piece of companies just Getting the most from their people has very much changed in my experience over the last 5 5 years in particular, I think some of that is linked to COVID. Some of it is linked to millennials and gen zed coming into the workplace, and some of it has just linked to, I think, more sophisticated conversations around how do people work best, and that can't just be a one way street.

And I think the differentiator of good companies, good company culture versus those struggling to get talent, The ones who really get us, who really want to inspire and motivate their people, who want their people to show up and equally get something from the business as much as give to us, just Those are the ones where the really good talent wants to work and where they stay. Mhmm.

And I suppose, you know, thinking about it, brilliant that there are some companies that are getting it right. But how do people find out that that they are good places to work, I suppose?

That's the real challenge. And I was I was thinking I was being a total nerd getting ready to chat to you today. I was thinking, could I think of even one part of the employee life cycle From talent attraction through to onboarding, through to how you do performance management, to development plan, succession planning, the full spectrum of it, even how you off board somebody Whenever they choose in their career, and I can't think of a stage in that life cycle that culture doesn't impact. The challenge is how do we find out? And it always strikes me, you know, people go on Glassdoor, but your happy people never end up on Glassdoor. The people who go there go there more likely than not because they have had a poor experience. In some respects, okay, that's their prerogative to share. It doesn't necessarily help an employer brand because all of your staff aren't the ones talking on Glassdoor. So, really how we leverage our networks, how we link in with people who work in the company or who previously worked in any company, the questions you ask at an interview because, again, recruitment has become so much more of a two way conversation of fish.

So, you know, it's what can I bring to the company, but what can they do for me? And, you know, millennials are really, really good at that. You know, I've had interviews with people walked in with a list. Just You get to that question at the end of the interview, so do you have any questions for me? Like, wait. And they whip out the list. You're like, oh, whole new level. But I think we're getting better

at the same stage. That's on my list of, Oh, yeah.

And literally and this very, really impressive woman worked her way through it, and she had about 10 questions. And We're like, okay. I can see that you thought about this.

Yeah.

But that's And that wasn't off putting. That's impressive. You know?

I I was about to say, just to take a pause on that, that that's that's what you want from candidates, that they've done enough research, that they know vaguely what the organization is like to work with, that you've you've looked at the website. You've seen what they say their values are.

Yeah.

But you've done, like, beyond that, like, getting someone in a room and having the opportunity to speak to someone who works there, and ask them questions about what, you know, what is the culture like and how do people get recognized. And, you know, we're not gonna dwell on talking about what specific questions you could ask. I'm you know, as a slight aside, I'm thinking of for the podcast and the future of the podcast. How could I create tools based on each episode that could help people. And maybe that's a tool that I can create. Here's a list of, you know, I was gonna say a 100 questions. Maybe a 100 is too many. But put something like 20 or 50 questions that you pick and choose.

And they're very generic, and you need to tweak them slightly to your own situation, but that you can use in an interview situation need to gauge whether or not somewhere is the the right place for you to work. Because like you say, it is a two way street these days. It's not all one way of you're there to be interviewed and to to show that you're the best person for the job. But it's really to an a mutual understanding of this is the problem that you're here to solve. And are you the right person to solve that problem? And is this a good fit? Are you gonna really thrive in this environment?

Yeah. And I know you're a data nerd like me, but if you think about every single part of the recruitment process gives you data. So how do they set up the initial call? Just Are you given flexibility on days of the week? So there are still and I I know from previous experience when I was in and out of different cultures, but also talking to friends. There are still some companies who will say, well, the interviews are on Monday afternoon. And if you can't make it on a Monday afternoon, We'll just move on to the next candidate. That tells you something.

Yeah.

That tells you something about flexibility. That tells you something about how they value people.

Just yeah.

Whether interviews are online versus in person. So how open are they to hybrid if you're saying, well, I have childcare arrangements. I can't travel in person. Could we do the initial hello. Who are you virtually? Is that a yes or a no? Are you greeted when you arrive? Walking into any business' reception tells you a huge amount about who they are and not the kind of fake I have, you know, 4 icons. We've all seen that. Right? So the icons and the values stuck in the wall in countries that can go, ah, the late the latest set of them. But, actually, how are you greeted? Are people talking to each other? Are people slumping around looking like they're carrying the weight of the world versus do people look happy to be there? And that's the piece where I think once you plug the part of your brain in, that is culture is everywhere, and it's not the the policy that's written in the drawer.

It's how Work actually comes to life, how people behave, how they're recognized, how they're valued. And you start seeing that from the minute you start in the recruitment process right the way through to even at the end how you're off board. Just All of that is important.

Brilliant. I was having, a conversation with someone quite recently. And I I don't know how I don't really remember how this came up, but it was the idea that and just me kind of flippantly saying that when you are in that situation and you are looking for a job, and just been there, that you're kind of desperate is the wrong word, but you're kind of you have that feeling that I don't have that many options. And maybe then your spidey senses are a little bit less perceptive to things that that may you may have noticed if you were in a comfortable position already. And I think maybe that's a challenge for some people when they're when they're in an environment where they're like, listen. I have to get out of here, and I have to get out really soon. It makes it much more difficult to find something aside from the fact that you're feeling a bit burned, and I've been like I say, I've been there. You've you you're kinda looking for something new, but you've had a terrible experience in the past, and you don't wanna make that same mistake again.

I think that's just another layer that people need to be aware of. That if you're looking for something, you need to make sure that it's really the right thing for you and that you're not making kind of rash decisions, that you've done your homework, that you're asking all of the right questions rather than being afraid to ask those questions in case it unearthed something that you don't want to hear because you're so kind of keen to get out of of the situation that you're in at the moment.

And I think it's not just you. If I look at people I've worked with again on the so I I do a lot of mentoring and coaching. And people generally, but women in particular, coming back There's lots of places. So for sure, job searching is one of them, but there are also lots of points where people nearly feel trigger shy. And a lot of the coaching and the conversation I have with with people is how how do you recognize and sit with the fact that you're trigger shy? And whatever experience you've had, whether it's poor employment experience, so you've been out of the workforce for a reason, or lots of people now take, you know, caring responsibilities and they're going back or they're changing careers post pandemic. Just Recognize it. Sit with it, but then also free up a part of your headspace to see, okay. How do I truly create kind of space to hear my gut instinct.

Because in my experience, if, you know, if I look back at things that have gone well and gone badly, and, certainly, I don't think anyone has a career where everything's gone well. No. It's your gut instinct steers you, and I think when you allow space to hear that

Yeah.

And, you know, see what's around you in that process that that you're better positioned. So I think some of the time, it's just about hitting the pause button.

I'm a

woman who doesn't know how to hit the pause button usually well, so I'm talking to myself as much as anybody else.

Just yeah. No. It's interest that's brought up a few things for me now. This idea of, like, they're kind of pivotal change points where you don't want to rock the boat and you're kind of afraid to speak hope and, maybe ask the questions that need to be asked or, like you say, to to really listen to your gut. And one of the previous podcast episodes with Kelly Thompson, she was talking about women in particular. We're so used to suppressing how we feel that we're just and, you know, be that in lots and lots of different scenarios that you don't really know what your gut is. You you're not trained to listen to it. And, really, if you take that pause, if you really take time to practice listening to it, then it won't steer you wrong.

But for any you know, I'm probably butchering the entire episode now, but but Kelly had a really nice way of explaining that. So I'll put a link to that previous episode in the show notes. But, yeah, like, that we've basically been ignoring our gut for so long that it makes it really hard to get back into the habit of of knowing what it is and being able to trust it as well.

Yeah. And it's it's funny. I I heard that episode as well, and it's my timeline, it came up on the back of a quote that Meryl Streep had of women have learned how to speak man for decades. We have had to in order to exist, whether it's in the corporate world or in her case, in, you know, show business. Men have not necessarily learned how to speak women. Some some of them do, not all of them. But I think because we're so used to morphing into that shape that fits the expectation, we don't always pay attention to what it is that we want or need in career paths. And I think an awful lot of the career planning and the development piece, women in leadership, all of all of that diversity area now focuses on okay.

It's okay to ask for what you want. And, yes, you can ask in a certain way, but you have to be clear yourself because that's how you get motivated. That's how you get to be truly passionate about a job you love. And then you show up and you give your best and you're valued and and all of the good stuff follows.

Brilliant. Caroline, I'd love to come back and talk to you a bit more about the doctorate research said you did around cultural change. And any like, what were the kind of key insights that you found?

I suppose one think that strikes me and it's easy to say is that we don't all love we don't all love change. We're humans. I get very suspicious of people And, again, countries in North America versus Europe versus, you know, APAC, people will talk about change differently. I I always get a little nervous. People go on, change. I can't wait. I'm just so afraid. Oh, okay.

If you put me in front so I've done some really big change management programs with different businesses. And the ones who are up the front who tend to be the gung ho of, I'm so up for the change. I'm just here, and and a lot of lingo and slang kinda comes with it, and they tend to take up lots of space. You know, there's a certain personality. They they kinda make me nervous because, As people, we do like a certain degree of of consistency. We like to know what's going on. Change can be challenging, and, yes, all of the You know, thing in their life that bring that pays the bills and keeps the roof over the head to for that just to be upended. I'm not sure.

Never really convinced that people sign up for that. So when I'm leading a change program and you see a group of people, it's not the ones down the back who have already decided that this is the worst thing that's ever gonna happen to So not them. It's not the ones at the front telling you how to do it, and they're so down with the plan. They're there ahead of you. It's the ones in the middle who look, like, a bit curious. They're the people, I think, where real change conversations can happen because they're sitting being honest saying, okay. Could be good, might be bad. I just wanna find out some more.

They're the ones who have meaningful questions. They'll be the people who become your best change ambassadors. Yeah. So I kinda pick my middle crew and go, okay. These are my people. We can work together on whatever the conversation or changes. I am. But, yeah, no problem.

Sorry for messy. I'm not sure I'm not sure any of us truly, truly love change. We might embrace it. It's that whole, you know, learn how to surf rather than be afraid of waves. You can put all of the, you know, the posters up on the walls, We are still human, with all of the flaws.

I think I'm a bit anti change myself. I like so sorry. No. I'll I'll I'll rephrase that. I love continuous improvement, but, like, big change projects that I've been involved in. I say involved in. Use that lightly because it's more been at the receiving end of in an organization, not consulted just like here's the change that we've already decided to make at a global level. Now go and roll it out.

Yeah. Very, very difficult. And, like, especially when you don't agree with the change that's been rolled out. What I was gonna say a 2nd ago, Caroline, have you seen the meme where it says, who wants change and everyone puts their hand up. And then who wants to change, and no one puts their

hand up. All those hands come down.

We want other people to change and to kind of fit our mold and fit our way of doing things. But oftentimes, we're reluctant to make those changes for ourselves. Yeah. So brilliant. Really interesting about culture change. And I suppose maybe culture more generally speaking, I'd love to get your perspective on the different organizations that you've that you've worked in over the years. And whether it's been a culture change project, which I'd be really interested to hear about as well, or just generally speaking culture, what what you see works well, especially kinda going back to our earlier point of it's really we're all people at the end of the day, and it's about understanding our behaviors and what motivates us and what helps us to feel fulfilled at work and to do our best work to feel happy while at the same time being in line with that organization and that organization really succeeding as well.

Yeah. I think there go back to your meme. There is the cliche of, you know, culture is how we do things around here, and I think that's that is the best summary I have still to date heard. Yeah. It's not the policy in the drawer. It's how it's how it comes to life. And it's everything from, Is it okay to ask questions? Is it okay to make mistakes? When change you describe change being done to you or at you as against a conversation happening. That's culture.

Culture is how do we give feedback. So I know when I worked with some of the tech businesses, a lot of them were really keen on, A continuous feedback loop for performance, and that's a really, really great idea. But it unearthed questions around who legitimately can give feedback, And how do you make sure that feedback is useful? Because we've all sit in the sat in those performance meetings where they're just soul destroying, and you walk out 2 feet tall thinking you're the worst person on the face of the planet. And an awful lot of the time, that's about how the manager or the leader has given the feedback rather than the substance of the feedback. It's who it's it's that piece Where what's the difference between feedback versus gossip? Because if you look up one of the indicators of toxic culture, for example, One of the in all of this, the Harvard Business Review, Forbes, all of the research around it would say, you know, gossiping in an office setting, kind of above and beyond the normal kind of Human level of interaction is one of the indicators of toxic culture. So when does feedback stop being feedback, and when does it start being gossip? I think those are really intricate questions that managers and leaders need to ask themselves, and that's the piece around your leadership impact, your communication style, how you bring culture to life in a really meaningful way for people. So it's it's that full spectrum of what is it like to be in a company. So if I'm in sales, what does success look like? If I'm looking at career planning, how what culture do we have around? What is a stretch objective.

What does good look like if we talk about a high performing culture? How do we support people through mental health or diversity or caring responsibilities? How do we onboard new job starters? And that came up a lot in the pandemic of people starting their 1st job remotely, where, You know, the 1st conversation they had was probably how you do a flat pack desk because there was nobody else. I spent half through COVID, I think

And who can I hire to do this for me?

Yeah. And they're not gonna by the way, because there's lockdown. So I did spend a good 6 weeks in the middle of COVID talking to people about how to put together desks. I thought I was moonlighting for IKEA for a while. But all of that is the piece around culture and an awful lot of the issues, points of friction where either I've been brought in on a project Or I'm coaching somebody, and they raise issues of poor experiences they've had. An awful lot of those points of friction come down to differential expectations of what do I what do I need as the employee versus what am I getting? And manager or leader capability. And I'm still not sure that culture and inclusivity and really good, strong communication and empathy are things that we train for in leaders. And I think that's something that that could have a real impact as we move forward.

There's so much to unpack there. So much to unpack there, Caroline, that I'm curious about it, and I wanna ask more questions. Can we start, first of all, with this idea of feedback? Who should we give feedback, and how can we make feedback a bit more useful? And performance reviews. Now I don't want to kind of dwell on this whole thing of performance reviews. That can be a topic for a whole other podcast episode. Yeah. But I suppose just boiling it down, I I'm sharing an insight from my own experience that I had a a manager who didn't rate me at all. Like, I mean, we just have this terrible relationship.

And I went into the performance review. And he gave me not a glowing review, but definitely way better than I thought. And it made me think that he just didn't want to have that conversation with me about why I wasn't performing, and that was on him. Like, maybe I'm totally wrong about that, but that's the impression I got at the time. I was really surprised but also happy that he he had given me this positive performance review for want of a better word rather than a totally negative one, which was which was what I was expecting.

I that's that's really interesting because I think when any any of us have gone through performances, you get the sweaty hands. You go, oh my god. I'm gonna have to talk about myself, and that's just awful. But the piece that we see much less often is that managers very often feel uncomfortable because there is that moment of Even giving good news. So Irish people are often taking confidence. So even how do I tell you in any kind of impactful way that you've done a good job?

Be

Oh, no. She probably talked about it. You kinda go, no. No. No. Actually, she needs to stick with

that and hear

it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And sim so we don't love giving good feedback, but we also then very uncomfortable at talking about development. And I think a lot of it depends on what kind of experience you've had. We all have our own baggage of the most excellent leaders who have sat with those who have made us better people. And I think for for me and I can think of 1 who I worked with, and she was amazing.

I knew her intent was positive. So she was coming to me with, here's stuff you're good at. Keep going. Grand. No. Here's stuff you can do differently, and it didn't feel personal. I didn't feel like a bad person leaving that conversation. I felt like somebody believed in me.

They wanted better, leaving that conversation. I felt like somebody believed in me. They wanted better for me, and they were gonna help me figure that out. But it's because we came from that foundation of we knew each We had stuff in common. There was a baseline relationship. It was filled with respect. And I knew even if she had a foot in mouth moment, because we're all human, it was still a case that her intent was positive. And it was kind, and it came with our kindness and empathy in those.

We call them softer skills when, actually, they're quite hard to deliver some of the time. But that nearly got us through any kind of difficult conversation. And I think sitting when I when I talk to leaders and do work with executives, An awful lot of it is about that of you're human. The person you're talking to is human. You have to kind of realize that. It's not you going into the clipboard And ranking people and don't get me started on, you know, you're a 1 to a 5 or an a to an e in terms of rating people. It's having the conversation

well, Caroline. Like, the oh, well, we can't have too many people getting a 5 rating because that's, you know, not everyone is a 5. And Yeah. And then comparing people to each other, like, just horrific. And, like, I I will that is on my list to do a whole other separate solo episode all about, performance reviews. I'm kind of pulling the curtain behind and sharing some of my own experiences as well on that because I think it's it's so important. I'd love to come back to this amazing boss that you had and ask, did like, how did you know that her intent was positive, I suppose? Because I think a lot of us think that we're going into these conversations with positive intent, or maybe the intent is, listen. I just have to get get this over with.

I have to deliver this terrible feedback that is not coming directly from me. It's actually on behalf of something else, and it's just really awkward. How did what made the difference for her that that you knew that her intent was positive?

I think because her name is Julie, and she she's she'll die of embarrassment because we're still friends, and that's Desmond, and worked together in, you know, 10, 12 years. She made a point of getting to know her team as people, and that meant, you know and I don't mean The the false way of, you know, oh, you know, do you do yoga on a variety? But she actually wanted to get to know us. What do you want? What motivates you? And she shared, here's where I'm coming from. Here's my background. You know, she had recently moved home. She was in a new relationship. She brought herself to work. So there was a base a baseline of where people, and we want to get to know each other.

She also has this really nifty knack of being direct without being harsh.

Yeah.

So there was no messing around. You knew if she told you it was good. It was good. If she told you it needed to be done better, it needed to be done better. So she didn't mince her words. And she also said she she verbalized A lot of what was in her head. So she would start by saying, I want the best for you. Here I think you can do better here.

So all of the spoken stuff that you're sitting in a room with. She actually put words on. And then over time, obviously, that develops trust and respect, and you see her Delivering that for herself. She is somebody who sought out feedback about how she was doing, so it was a true kind of two way conversation. And I think that's how very quickly she established her credibility for, Julie, could land the worst news possible, whether it's by the client account or something that had really, really gone wrong, And it would still be okay. And she made made a point, I think, of following up afterwards, and she minded the relationship because, you know, we're gonna have to do this tomorrow. So there's no point in people going home So horribly embarrassed. You're so horribly broken that they physically don't want to show up tomorrow or the Sunday night blues test of are you sitting on a couch in a Sunday wracked with, Oh my god.

I can't go back to work. That's it. You know, that's kind of a test of culture, or do we all get to be okay coming back to working together the next time around? And that's where she invested such huge time and energy. So, yeah, I think she's a rock star. I'm a fan.

If you're listening today, just brilliant. I love that. And some really practical tips, I think, for people to take away on on what it really means to be a leader. Because like you were saying, we're talking more broadly about culture, but actually the really important piece to that is the the leader's role. And a big crucial part of the leader's role is the development of the staff, and a big crucial part of that is feedback. Now something else, Caroline, that you mentioned in relation to that is feedback versus gossip. So what's feedback versus what's gossip. And gossip is a sure sign that you're in a toxic work environment.

And I've been in that situation where there there's gossip. And even, like finding out that people were gossiping about me, or here's a here's a prime example where I went to speak to someone who was a colleague and came back to my desk and found, what's the word, an instant message that was very obviously meant for someone else. Oh. But the person got confused and sent it to me by accident. Oh, no. Yeah. You know? And to read something like that, it was the implication was that I was trying to throw someone under the bus just went so obviously, they had taken my intention to be completely wrong and but then took it upon themselves to start spreading that gossip around just literally just after having the conversation. Mhmm.

So, yeah, it was, so, yes, gossip back to gossip.

Gossip back to gossip. I think, you know, there's a certain piece where I once you put once you put people in a room, we're gonna talk about each So there's a there's a level of social interaction that you wouldn't want to kill. I'm not I'm not advocating for politically correct work environments where nobody says something ever. I think to me, the difference is and I I'm sure this won't necessarily be the most popular view. Some of the new, HRIS tools re or online systems where people can give an instant shout out to colleagues, and it this has been lauded as the way you build real engagement and the way you give real time motivational, Feedback. They make me a little nervous because if anybody can talk about anything any of the time, I guess the question becomes, How do you then equip people to do that responsibly? So it's great when and one of the systems I think has a you know, you can give a colleague a high fine for for doing a good job. You can give them a shout out for doing a good job. The notion that in notionally, theoretically, that's super.

Practically speaking, it becomes fodder for some of the behaviors we would have seen when we were in school. So, you know, if you're always getting the high fives or the shout outs, and I'm not on my left out, that mean I'm ostracized?

Yeah.

Is it that my work is less visible? Is there favoritism at play? I think it unearths all of this, for want of a better word, stuff around human interaction. I think, to me, feedback is very clearly defined if you're in a leadership position, if you're working on a project just cross functionally. If you are a peer and you have something to say, be a good, bad, or indifferent, it needs a structure. You need to put a scaffold around What is feedback so that there are parameters that everybody understands? They might not like them. You know, we don't have to love stuff in order to be clear on it, but there needs to be kind of a safe space and a scaffold around feedback. And if it is not fast, then it is something else. And if it's and and chances are it's something like gossip. So if I'm talking about you As a person, and I have no legitimate reason to.

If I'm not talking about the work that you've done or your skills or capabilities or how you added value, if that's not what I'm doing, I think a conversation needs to be had, and ideally with by a leader to say, what's going on here? So what tone are you trying to set and why do you understand the impact it can have? Just And to me, gossip is one of those things that you kill really, really quickly. Yeah. Why is unashamedly because It is the piece that can run away and become really, really damaging in a culture. And that's we need to be really clear. That's not feedback. That's just gossip, and it's at the last year end of the spectrum where I think some direct conversations need to be had.

Yeah. I mean, there's a few things I'd love to to pick up on there. This feeling of being left stage are like, why am I not getting any of the high fives? Why am I not why am I not being recognized? My work is becoming less visible. I never thought about that from from that perspective. Now I've seen it in action where we used to recognize people for living the values. And I'm kinda like, someday, I'm gonna get recognized. Why am I not being recognized? Is it because I'm in a leadership position and I can't, which in itself is is kind of ridiculous. It's like you should be able to be recognized just in the same way that that everyone else is recognized.

But that's a really interesting kind of nuance to those technologies where it can make peep people feel a little bit left out, a little bit like they're being excluded if they're not getting that regular recognition and if people are kind of grouping together almost and and forming that, and just, kind of building on this point of gossip and and killing gossip quickly. I suppose it's it's hinging on the fact that you know about it in the 1st place. That you catch someone in the act or that you're the recipient of gossip and you can safely share that with someone else who can do something about it or just simply say, I do not wanna take part in in these kinds of conversations that goes against our values of respect as a as a business.

Yeah. And I think to me so HR hat on when I'm working with a business, that's where I I like to be really close to the business so that I have visibility of just How things actually are in the ground so that myself or or HR team are close to them. I think that's kind of your functional responsibility. Our responsibility is any adult working in a workplace. If you hear gossip, it is up to you to be the one to close it down. If you're hearing it and it's not comfortable and you think about, well, if I heard that said about me, how would I feel? Yeah. If all of that doesn't go well, then you have a responsibility. I think that's that's one of the core values you can bring to life going back to that conversation and culture Where your expectation of people is if something doesn't sit well with you, if it's if it's not right, if you don't think it's fair, if you wouldn't want to be the recipient of it, you know, nobody's gonna come and save you.

Just You're standing there. You're the one who has to speak up. And I think that's a really good sign of a healthy culture from people can do that.

Yeah. That was another point that I wanted to come back to is this idea of really. And I love how you described it as it's it's this idea of how are my needs being met as an individual. And what are my expectations of how those needs are are are being met? And I think oftentimes, a big source of unhappiness is the a differential between what we expect something to provide or how we expect something to be and how it actually is. And so if we can set those really clear expectations about what it's like to work here, what it should be like to work here, bridge that gap if there's a a gap between what we want it to be like and what it actually is like. And but then then this idea of having managers and leaders who are capable to drive that, to have those conversations, to set those really clear expectations, to nip it in the bud if there's anything that is untoward, for want of a better word, so things like gossip and just people not living in accordance with the with the values of the organization.

I think there's 2 there's 2 things to pull out in what you you said. The first is the unspoken. So to me, just The big piece is unless it's next week's lot of numbers, in which case, by all means, we should share them. But, you know, there shouldn't be mystery in this process. So yeah. Overall in work, it's the unspoken. It's about making sure that there is less unspoken stuff that people are clear because that's where expectations can be out of kilter because I have this set of things I expect. I haven't said them to anybody either in my head, I expect you to fulfill them, nonetheless, and when you don't, I feel bruised.

It's a case of naming them and for there to be dedicated or allocated space in the conversation for that. So I think take away the mystery is step 1. The other piece, and it's it's I have an agenda structure, so anybody who's worked with me will know. I structure our kind of catch up agendas, the good, the bad, and the awkward. So you talk about the stuff that's gone well, the stuff where, you know, there's challenges or deadline hasn't been met or something has been done differently. And then you specifically push an agenda item called the awkward, and And it's where you bring the stuff that nobody wants to talk about, and it's the, you know, it's the cringey stuff if I saw this thing happen, or I wasn't comfortable with how this got but by naming it and allocating time, if can sit here for 10 minutes, and we can be quiet, or we can use the time to to fill, and we can chat, and we can be the awkward. It's where people get to bring their stuff, and I think that's how you established psychological safety and trust. It's where you expect irrespective of seniority or experience or otherwise.

People can bring issues that are sitting poorly with them. Have a conversation. It stays in the room, and that's where you begin to unpack. Okay. Is my expectation I'd filter? Is this the kind of company we are? Is this thing that we see not aligned to values, and, therefore, we need to address it? Was this just a one off? Because, you know, Bob is a great guy, and he's not he's lovely. He was just having a really bad day.

Yeah. And we

kinda need to check, is he okay? It still wasn't right. So having that space and naming it is awkward, I think, gives people permission to say, okay. You're not gonna love this part of the meeting. We're still gonna do it. It's gonna be awkward for everybody, but it's we're going to be better for having done it. I think that's important.

I love that as a as a framework or as a an agenda. Just, just It can be fun. What people

call awkward. It can get interesting. But yeah.

Make a space for those awkward conversations because I think you hit the nail on the head, Caroline. It it's taken the mystery away, isn't it? It's less of the unspoken. And we sometimes assume that people can read our minds and that our expectations are really clear. Now I'm learning more and more just as I bring people in to work with me on my business that I haven't I assume that people would just look at what I've done previously and just know how it gets done. But it's that's not the case. Like, it it takes effort. It takes time to explain to people. Like, I have tools that help me to do that, which is brilliant as well.

Just put taking away that unspoken or at least having those things in place where it's really clear what the expectation is. And I love talking about expectations when it comes to productivity and things as well. So setting really clear expectations around time and quality that is expected. And and I think if we just get that out on the table rather than assuming, like, I think and I'm thinking back again to some instances where I had where it's just you start in a role, and it's almost like sink or swim. You have access to the intranet, to do a bit of research on the company and the different departments and what they do. Maybe you have some meetings with the departments, but they're kind of meaningless because you're not really sure what your role is in the organization yet. And, like, the expectations are not really very clear at all. And I think that just continues.

As you do your role, you learn on the job, and you create your own expectations almost.

Yeah. And I think we're we're really good at asking very senior leaders, and it's become that, you know, politics cliche that's transferred over to business of what will you do in your 1st 100 days? And I nearly cringe when I hear it because you're like, well, you know, first need to you're gonna say nothing and listen, hopefully, remember your own name. But we're really good at asking They should get KPIs or OKRs or whatever it is you're working to. Yeah. There should be a list. And maybe one of them is get to know the company or go buddy up with somebody and find out about whatever project is or whatever the area of work is. But from the start, it should be clear. This is what good looks like.

You won't know it from the start. We will help you and equip you and support you to get there, but you should be really clear where you're pointing Because none of us can be good if we don't know where we're going. It's yeah. That's like me heading out with, like, Google Maps. I'd be doing circles around that soon. So It's more, I think, naming it and being clear and making sure it's attainable. So there can be all of the stretch stuff. But even within somebody's 1st month, and I think there's a reluctance for, you can't set annual KPIs when somebody's in the door.

Of course, you can. You just you tailor them, and you tweak them so that they have a road map.

Yeah.

And that takes out some of the mystery. It also means you can have a concrete conversation of stuff that's on track and off track, and you're not having the vague conversations. And so how are you settling in for you know, how how do you even begin to answer question. It can be a case of, you know, have you bodied up? Have you sat with somebody on the project? Do you know where the stuff you need to do your jobs or the online tools? Do you know where that What do you think you can bring? What's your expectation of what you're gonna get from your 1st month? Ask the question. I think that clarity is important from day 1 and sets the tone, and it also it implies really clearly that it's okay to want to be clear, to ask questions, to figure things out.

Yeah.

It sets a space where from the start, you know, that that's a good thing.

Just it it allows for ramp up time as well. Like, you're not expected to come in and hit the ground running in a new organization when you don't know the people, you don't know the systems, and and things like that. But, you know, something occurred to me as you were talking, Caroline. And that is asking people who are new to a role for feedback as well, you know, and, like, how are we doing, and have we given you enough information to be able to do your job or to set you up for success or to onboard you properly? All of these things, I think, are are so

stuff. Goldust. And I think the good companies, again, positive cultures come back to where we started. Really good companies get that. There that's feedback you can't fight because all of the team that's been there. So it takes takes about between 9 and 11, but average about 11 weeks for a dominant culture trying to take over your newbies. Just So you can take a new person or a new team, embed them in an organization, and 11 weeks later, whatever your dominant culture is, they will have begun behaving like that. And that is proven time and time and time again.

So you you lose that window within the 1st 3 months of people having that external lens. Just If you make a point of asking people at day 5 and at week 5 and at week 9, I I think are good, kinda, sensible data points that I've used, How are we doing? Not about you, but how are we doing? What can we do more? What can we do better? How did we did we live up to our promise? So you read this job ad at one point time. You chose to come and interview. You got the job. Brilliant news. We all celebrated. Have we lived up to that? And if not, is it better, worse, different? What's is going on. And I think, you know, companies pay huge amount for market research and net promoter scores and employee surveys.

And all of that is really useful, But there's a wealth of information sitting within their new starters while they still have that external lens

Yeah.

That lots of times we just don't ask for. To me, that's just just a massive waste, and I think that's where you can show your people your valued you you value them, and you're you're listening to them from the start.

Yeah. Just and I I was told I'm sure I've covered this on the podcast before, but that's not how we do things around here. That's what I was told when I was bringing some new ideas, some fresh ideas into the organization. That's not how we do things around here. I was like, right. I don't think I ever opened my mouth again. You know? Yeah.

Just it just That's so destroying.

Yeah. It is. Yeah. I'm like, okay. So this global experience that I've spent years building up is not valuable where I am, so that's good to know. Caroline, we've kind of covered lots of different ground, but all relating to back to this the topic of culture. Any final thoughts, or is there anything that we haven't necessarily covered on culture that you'd like to get across in the podcast today?

I think the thing that strikes me no matter what the size of the business I've worked with or where it's based or the sector it's in is that There's been massive progress in that we are now talking about culture, and that's that you know, tick that box. It's brilliant, and that isn't something I would have spotted 7 to 10 years ago. Still remains an awful lot to do around what we mean by culture because it's become one of those words that we throw around with future of work, and got works for us because one culture will work for a business and for a set of employees, and it won't work for another. And everybody can find their place in some role where they add value. But different than they need to be, but I I actually think investing the time and unpacking that and exploring it and seeing how do we line up our culture with our commercial objectives, with our people objectives, and make sure everything is Is leverage to best capacity is is the next stage of bringing it to life, I think, and as we look to future work and and what company success looks like.

Brilliant. I love that. And you had that, that kind of famous quote earlier. The cliche as you were talking about, like culture is how do things around here. Like, I love that as a culture. And and maybe you don't have clearly defined values. That's okay. You still have a culture though because it's how people are doing things.

And if they're not checked, if people are not, if people are not being pulled up on what is perceived as a poor behavior, then you're gonna find yourself, like, slippery slope into gossip and toxic culture, basically. Just,

see if it's business. HR isn't the culture

police. Exactly.

I don't come with a Wonder Woman outfit. You know?

It's Yeah.

It's more that it's everybody's responsibility, but That being a shared objective and identifying it as a shared objective, I think, is the next iteration of employee engagement and employee experience. It's about just Being more explicit about investing time and resources and energy and culture.

Yeah. I love that. Just brilliant. Caroline, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, and you'll know because you're a long term listener, what does being happier at work mean to you?

I think for me, it's recognizing that that has changed over time and being okay with that.

Mhmm.

And for me right now, It's making sure that I can add value to your point on you know, you've gotten this wealth of experience, but you're still only halfway through career. So how do you how do you make sure it's useful? And having that space where you can be yourself and make the positive difference, but still learn, to me, that's the the happy zen zone of adding value, but also still being able to to learn and grow and develop. That's that's happy to me.

I love it. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about you and what you do, what's the best place they can do that?

They can find me on LinkedIn where they'll find all of the work just work stuff. If they're interested in year round swimming or sunsets, they'll find me on Twitter or x. I'm at coffee and swim, But mostly LinkedIn is where they'll hear all about the culture and HR stuff.

Brilliant. Love it. Thank you so much, Caroline, for your time today. Absolutely loved this conversation, and there's so many just practical things that people can implement straight away after listening.

It's been really good, Aoife