In this episode Tom and Hazel speak to Sireen Khudairy, who's a resident of Dheisheh refugee camp in Bethlehem. For many years, Dheisheh has been a centre of determined resistance against the occupation. We spoke to Sireen in December 2022. And she told us about life and resistance in Dheisheh, and also in the Jordan Valley. She also speaks about the murders which were carried out by the Israeli military near to Dheisheh in winter 2022.

View a transcript of this episode

Links

• International Solidarity Movement website.
• Read our interview with Sireen on page 21 of our Interviews with Radical Palestinian Women Ebook.
• If you would like an explanation of the terms used in this podcast, you can find a useful glossary on pages 140-154 of Shoal Collective's Ebook.

Supported by

Shoal Collective

Hey, welcome to international solidarity

movement podcast [translation in Arabic]

Hey, and welcome to the International Solidarity

Movement podcast. My name’s Tom. And in this episode me and Hazel

speak to Sireen Khudairy, who's a resident of Dheisheh refugee

camp in Bethlehem. For many years, Dheisheh has been a

centre of determined resistance against

and Sireen to talk about life, resistance and solidarity in

Dheisheh.

So my name is Sireen and I'm originally from Tubas, in

the north of the Jordan Valley. Okay, and I have moved to the

Dheisheh refugee camp seven years ago. So I live here since

seven years. Yeah. I'm an activist with Jordan Valley

solidarity campaign. And now I'm organising some activities here

in Dheisheh refugee camp. I will talk about the refugee camp here

in Dheisheh.

So in the past, there was an Israeli gate, close to the camp,

and an electric fence around the camp. It was removed because of

the struggle of Palestinian people here, and because of

resistance. So nowadays, actually, since I moved to the

Dheisheh camp, it was [a shock] for me even [though] I'm a

Palestinian, I was living and struggling in another way. Not

like now how it looks like [to me now]. How [is] the life in

Dheisheh. I was suffering with other types of problems. You

know, the life in the Jordan Valley, we were struggling

there. Because there there is no water and you are not allowed to

build houses, not allowed to have electricity or to build a

school. So it was another type of struggling. Here in Dheisheh

camp. It's different. You are resisting to be alive. Anytime

you could be shooted with any attack. So I remember the first

night the Israeli soldiers attacked the house, I was alone,

actually, my husband, he was in jail. So I was alone in the

house. I was surprised. It was like - for me - like a war, [gas

and sound] bombing outside the house, shooting gas bombs into

my house to the balcony. So I was like, what's happening?

What's going on here in the camp. So that's what's

happening. Like weekly, sometimes three times per week,

sometimes once a week. It depends on the mood and the

orders of Israeli soldiers. The [people] came from... 50

[different] villages in[side the] 1948 [territories seized

by] Israel. And they live here in the camp. I'll talk more

about the attacking [of] the camp, especially while I'm a

mother now. I have kids. It's two months ago. Usually when I

go to work, my kids and my husband they drove me to work by

our car and then my husband take my kids to the kindergarten. So

they drove me to my work far away from the camp around 10

minutes. Okay. So they were on their way back to the camp. They

were surprised that there were soldiers at the entrance of the

camp without their uniform. And they were shooting. I just heard

in the news there is shooting in the camp and there were people

injured. I was like, what's happening? It was 8:30am. So

that was the first time for my kids. The first time they saw

blood. So for me, it was like they have to be [more than]

their ages you know, since they start to ask me who they [the

injured people] are, what’s the blood about, if the people died?

If later, we will be shooted? What will happen? They asked me,

after being dead, how is the life for us? They were asking

questions really much more than their ages. So in that time, I

recognise that it's a danger of occupation. It's, you know, when

you start to live a life as if it's normal. You look at it as

if it's normal life. And then someone slaps you, [reminds] you

that it's not normal. Actually, my kids, they slap me like that.

It’s not normal life. Yeah. And you hear about the last one? My

husband’s relative who was shooted in the camp. It's like

that in one moment.

Mama schuh hada [what’s this]

Hada mike [this is a mike]

How old are your children now?

The biggest one, Jawad, is five and a half years, Younes

is three years and half.

I just remembered that, unfortunately, international

people, when we talk about situation and life, it's like,

okay, you are people under occupation and let us know about

it, you know. But no, we are just like any other people. We

have life and we are we have good memories in our life. We

are not like just people under occupation – how the Israelis

they want to show us, so yeah, that's just a reminder.

Do you want to say anything else about the

situation in Dheisheh?

About the recent martyr?

Yeah. It was on 5th of December. At 530. Actually, my

son he was sick and I was awake. Okay. I just heard bombing

outside the house. So, okay, a new attack who? Who will be died

this night? I was like that. what will happene? I just heard…

a voice of a man who was shouting. So he was that one,

the martyr… So they attacked the camp to arrest people. And they

arrested three people that night at 5:30am. And it was [as if]

they left the camp. So the people they thought that the

army they left the camp. So they went to take out the prisoners

from the school. They were keeping the prisoners inside the

school... just outside the school. Suddenly there was a

sniper. He started to shoot at the people. He shot a man. He

fell down. Then his friends they were trying to take him out from

under fire. They shot at him with 10 bullets. They were

trying to take him. [When] anyone he was trying to go

closer, they shoot. So two they were in dangerous situation. And

the third one he has died, and his brother is still in in jail.

I'm sorry to hear.

That was a shock you know because especially this

guy, the people in the camp they were love him. He was he was the

one who make bread for all the camp. So he would usually go to

the kindergarten where my kids study, and [bring] bread to them

and zaatar with breads [or] cheese with breads. Once a week

for free. So he’s friends with the kids and people in the camp.

It was a sad moment for all the camp it was a huge shock.

How old was he?

22 years old. His name was Omar Manna Fararja.

Yes, actually that thing I saw it in my eye. Especially woman,

you know whenever there are attacks. Not just men they go

outside. Even woman, they try to protect the camp. It's not easy

for Israeli soldiers to come inside, to come from the

entrance of the camp because nightly there are men who's

always trying to to keep the camp from the soldiers. So how

they attack the camp? From the mountain, from behind the camp

mostly. It's not easy for them to come inside the camp.

Whenever they try to enter the camp, there is resistance. I

will not hide it. The people here resist. Even women they do

it. So for sure, they will not welcome them by flowers.

Israeli soldiers, they shoot seventy people from the camp

into their knees. So their promise was we are going to make

people disabled. If anyone wants to resist you will be disabled.

And they [said] that on a microphone. The Israeli captain

[he was] threatening the people like that. Whenever there are

attacks you have to hide yourself in your house.

Otherwise you will be disabled. We are going to shoot you.

And you were saying before that women will also go

out into the street as well when there are soldiers. Right? And

so is it also women?

If they are coming like if they knock the house to come

inside, they try to stop them. It's not like going outside to

the street. No, just men they go outside. But if they try to go

inside they refuse, even women! ‘You're not welcome in my

house!’ They try to ask them if they have permission… documents

say [they] have the right from the court, because [what they

are doing is] illegal. And two months ago, as well, they killed

a child. And we are going to take you to see where where he

was killed. He was just in the street. Inside the village there

are checkpoints, In Umm Ruqba village here in Bethlehem. And a

soldier he shooted the child. They took photos to show that

they were trying to treat him after shooting him. And they

were showing ‘look at our soldiers, how they are trying to

treat a child’. And [after] they took the photos they left, they

let him die. So after all that I am trying to open a link

between women in the Jordan Valley and woman in Dheisheh

refugee camp to share their experiences, because it's

important to share their experiences, and to talk, to

keep having hope. And we are teaching, sharing our

experiences to teach each other.

Can you explain what it's like to organise autonomously as

women in Dheisheh? Like what kind of things have you been

doing in the woman's organising?

Okay, so first of all, we went to the Jordan Valley. I

noticed actually that there are differences between the

characters of the women in the Jordan Valley and the woman in

Dheisheh refugee camp, even [though] they are struggling,

both are struggling and resisting in their in their

ways. So I thought okay, if they share their experiences, it will

be helpful for the woman there, and the woman here in Dheisheh

refugee camp. And we start a project called ‘The Beauty of

the Lands’ - here in Dheisheh refugee camp and in the Jordan

Valley. You know, the Jordan Valley has a very beautiful area

and a huge area. But whenever you go there to talk to people,

they start to blame the situation and talk about

occupation and they forget that they live in a very beautiful

area, because of the situation and that's what the Israelis

want, they want us to focus at the problems and blame the

situation, and feel it's a very hard life, and leave.

So we start to focus more to stay with the communities, to

live with the communities for months, to talk to the people

too. I learned a lot because of the women in the Jordan Valley.

Other women, they said the same. Just our questions was let us

know about the beauty of the Jordan Valley. At the beginning,

it was hard to talk about beauty, always it was about

problems, the situation, the occupation, etc. But after 10

days, they started to talk about unique plants, about the lands,

the unique flowers, the spring waters… If you feel the lands.

If you take that good memories to your mind from the lands,

then you feel it, you will like to stay in it. It will mean for

you. Not like okay, I'm here because it's the only place I'm

staying in. So it was good experience there. And we're

trying to collect stories from here in Dheisheh. From old women

and old men - because that's our history. And you know they are

[the] stories of [the] Nakba [of 1948]. It's [a memory] with the

people who are [over] 80 years old, so we are trying to meet

more people, to document it.

And can you also talk a bit about the women's organising

here in the camp? You spoke about having a house where women

can meet and discuss together?

Okay, it was a crazy idea. So you know, my husband…

he was in jail. The Palestinian Authority, they give salary for

each month of staying in jail for the family of the prisoners.

So I was working in that time and I was collecting the money

for Mahmoud since he was released. We were thinking what

to do with it. So we decided to renovate one of the oldest

houses in Dheisheh, to save the story of the house - which has

stories of seven families who was left there because of Nakba.

So now it's a place for women to meet and talk. You know, here in

the camp almost we don't have [any] spaces outside our house.

Almost it's like houses, upstairs. So yeah, it's an

opportunity for women to sit and to talk. To share experiences as

well. We give trainings in the house as well. We have links

with the worker’s union. So always we invite women. Here, if

there is some trouble at work, the women they try to hide it.

So the women’s centre - for them it's like a space where they

could share with each other - which is very important for your

psychology, to talk and to try to solve your problems with

others. So that's the idea of the women’s centre in Dheisheh.

How many women have been coming?

55. Until now, yes, more or less? Yeah, 55 women.

And do you also make decisions about things locally?

Or like what sort of projects do you hope to do in the future?

You said about the union organising, and it's also

interesting that you said it's this really old house - because

it made me think of what you were saying about the Jordan

Valley. And again, it's women as these kind of defenders of

culture and memory - and passing that on as well. So it's really

beautiful that in both places you have these projects.

Yeah, actually more it's going to be like a popular

education centre. It's like people teaching other people.

Sharing, learning each other… The space it has a high floor,

it could be for a theatre, okay, to share some of the stories

which we are collecting now. So it's more for culture, it's

going [to be] for cultural projects.

Is it ever difficult to get women involved in

organising. Are there like specific challenges that you

feel like women face to get involved?

Here in the camp? No, the women here, they are more

open. Okay. But where are the challenges? It's... easy to

[get] them involved, it's not easy to make them talk. And

that's important, you know, it's like, Okay, we have to hide...

It's like the image of women, it's like, we have to show that

we are heroes. We don't have problems, you know. We could

solve it. It's easy to solve any problems. And that's the

challenge. But no, it's a problem. It's not normal life.

We have to face it as it's a problem. Yeah, that's the

challenge.

And were you involved in women's organising before living

in the camp, as well, like organising women elsewhere. So I

know that you are an ex-prisoner. And you're involved

now in prison solidarity organising. And I want to ask

you about that. But I'm also curious, because you said that

in the camp, women are quite open to joining. But I wondering

if it was difficult in other places.

For example, in the Jordan Valley, it's not easy

[for] women [to] share activities, or to be yanni to be

honest, here, it's easy to make people join activities. But in

the Jordan Valley, for example, it's like shame, or they have to

wait for a decision from men, [for men] to accept it. That's

the truth. Here. No, it's different.

Why do you think it's different? What's the

difference? What caused it to be different?

Because the style of life here is different. In the

Jordan Valley, it's like still small communities. So it's still

more controlled by men, which is not the same here. Once when I

was in the Jordan Valley, I saw a woman. She wakes up at five,

[I met her] during the ‘Beauty [of Life]’ projects - while I

was staying with the families. So she wakes up at 5am, she was

taking the milk of 200 sheep. Okay. And then she went back to

the house, she prepared breakfast for her family, she

make her kids ready to go to school. Then she makes cheese of

the 200 sheep... And then she was preparing dinner. And the

Israeli bulldozer, they attack the house, they destroyed the

house. She went inside the house, she took everything from

inside the house outside at that time, she was preparing the food

while the bulldozer [was] destroying the house. And in the

end of the day, I asked her what do you do in your life? Could

you imagine her answer? What was it? Nothing! For me, it was

like, she teaches me the meaning of power. And she has a huge

power to do all of that without blaming. But for her, it's like

‘I'm doing nothing’. So that's why I thought ‘Yeah, it's

important to talk to women’. And that's why their situations

[are] still like that. Because they don't talk. They look at it

as if it’s normal, normal life and the meaning for them.

[Comes] from the men, ‘you do nothing’...And that's destroying

communities. That's how communities are [being

destroyed] in the valley. Because of that. Women for me

are much more important than men there. Because they start... I

saw her, she was trying to rebuild the house before the

men. She look after her sheep, [and] about the family as well.

And the decisions comes from the men at the end of the day.

So you mentioned before that you were in prison, and

also since then you've been a prisoner organiser, a solidarity

organiser as well. We're wondering if you could tell us a

bit about that?not specially but I'm trying to focus because

yeah, as I know their situation as I lived it. I'll share

something with you that I met Celine Alger boo knew when I met

her in jail, she was for 20 years in jail. So I met her in

2013. So for her, I started to talk to her about internets

about Facebook, that you could post a post on Facebook people

could make comments. She thought I'm I'm lying. Like I'm just

trying to make more drama, but I don't she doesn't know what does

it mean internet while internet was discovered she was in jail.

So she was like, which life we are living.

About being in jail?

If you want to share about being in jail then do, but

also especially organising since then as well.

Okay, so in 2013, I was kidnapped by the Israeli

soldiers. I was in isolation for two months. And maybe it's

important to share with you about being isolated. I was in a

cell, which is one metre, within two metres, for two months

without lights with a very heavy light. I remember the first time

I saw the sun after two months. For my eyes, it was like a heavy

door [that] I'm trying to open. There are too many details. If

we are going to talk about it, maybe for people who's outside

jail, it means nothing! But for prisoners. It's like life. It

was a dream for me after a month to have a small mirror to see my

face in a mirror, for example. So I have passed through too

many [psychological] pressures. I remember once one of the

Israeli captains. he brought... a Palestinian magazine with a

photo of my mother. [It was] written on it that my mom died

[which wasn’t true]. Imagine which types of [psychological]

torture they don't care, [they want] to make to make you very

weak. So after isolation, I was with Palestinian political

prisoners in HaSharon jail. So I was with [other] Palestinian

political prisoners in HaSharon jail, which is illegal according

to the Geneva agreement that we were in jail inside Israel. Our

family cannot visit. For me never my family visited me

there. We were mixed in the same jail with Israeli criminals,

which is illegal too. So since I was released, I was involved

with doing solidarity with prisoners through sending

letters, talking to radio. There are some programmes [that] I

know that prisoners are hearing and it means a lot for them.

They are waiting the programme from one week to another week to

hear letters and to hear from people outside. So it's like to

give a time [of] 10 minutes to this programme. It means a lot

to the prisoners inside so I'm trying to give my best with that

trying to stand next to families to continue to keep [on] the

struggle, and to not [let] the families feel they are lonely.

Yes.

Are you working especially with women prisoners?

Not specially but I'm trying to focus [on them]

because I know their situation as I lived it. I'll share

something with you that I met Lina Jarbouni. When I met her in

jail, she [had been] for 20 years in jail. So I met her in

2013. So for her, I started to talk to her about internet and

about Facebook. That you could post a post on Facebook people,

could make comments. She thought that I'm lying. Like I'm just

trying to make more drama. She doesn't know what does it mean

internet. While the internet was discovered she was in jail. So

she was like, ‘which life are we living’.

How many how many people from Dheisheh are in prison do

you think now?

Hundreds! I don't know exactly. Because you know its

daily… Maybe this night they will arrest more five people.

It's changed daily.

So many many families have one of their loved ones in

prison?

Yes

Do you organise activities together?

And I wanted to say something. They are not numbers!

It's like you know each family has the same. Each Palestinian

family has prisoners, has a taste of the meaning of to lose

someone, martyrs. I don't think that [for] any family in

Palestine never one one of them was arrested. Like, for example

our neighbour, he's [sent to] jail 15 years. And he has to

stay in jail for all of his life, just on the other side of

our house. His mother was dead and he didn't see her. Before

she was dead for four years… they didn't allow her to visit.

So our other neighbour last year, he was shooted. He's 17

years old and he is disabled. He was shooted into his back. The

other neighbours, he’s like go out from jail for two months,

and they re-arrest. He stay with his family... just for two

months. And then they came back to arrest him. He stayed in jail

two years. They let him out for two months and they re-arrest.

It's like, around us is like a movie.

And both of us are involved in prisoner solidarity and

solidarity with people in court in the UK. And I wanted to ask,

like how important do you think is it to have connections and

solidarity with people outside of Dheisheh and people outside

of Palestine, and to build solidarity with prisoners?

It's important because there are some actions you could

do it, but we cannot do it. For example… when I was in jail, I

saw that things which they were putting on my hands [the

handcuffs]. They were from G4S. [And] so some companies,

international companies. They support Israel through guns, for

example. These things you could make actions to against it. And

if you are in contact with Palestinians, and in solidarity

with prisoners you could share more stories. [Share] more

realities, to make the people work outside to do something to

help.

We're still living the same life here because of the silence of