The primary contention of this discourse posits that the contemporary quandaries surrounding mental health may not solely stem from a lack of knowledge, but rather from a pervasive neglect of the fundamental art of listening. In this profound dialogue, we engage with Dr. Fred Moss, a seasoned psychiatrist, who advocates for a paradigm shift in our approach to healing one that veers away from mere diagnoses and interventions towards a more organic, human-centric methodology. We explore the notion that authentic healing emerges through genuine human connection and the practice of being present with one another. This episode invites our listeners to reflect upon the essence of what truly constitutes healing, urging a reconsideration of habitual perceptions surrounding mental health challenges. Join us as we traverse this intricate landscape, challenging the conventional wisdom and fostering a deeper understanding of our shared human experience.

The discourse presented in this episode pivots around the notion that contemporary mental health challenges may not solely stem from a deficiency in knowledge or understanding, but rather from a profound societal neglect of the fundamental skill of listening. The conversation invites listeners to embark on a reflective journey, urging them to reevaluate the essence of healing. It posits that true healing transcends mere diagnosis and intervention, advocating instead for a return to the organic and inherently human practices of connection and empathy. Within this framework, the guest, Dr. Fred Moss, a distinguished psychiatrist with over four decades of experience, articulates a paradigm shift in our approach to mental health—one that emphasizes the importance of being present and engaged with ourselves and others. Through this lens, the dialogue unfolds, exploring the transformative potential of genuine human connection as a primary catalyst for healing, thereby challenging entrenched beliefs about mental health and treatment protocols.

Takeaways:

• The modern mental health crisis may stem not from ignorance, but from our collective failure to listen deeply and authentically to one another.
• Healing is not solely about diagnosis or treatment; it begins with a fundamental human connection that transcends conventional methods and approaches.
• Our conversation today emphasizes the importance of slowing down to engage in meaningful dialogue that fosters genuine healing and understanding.
• Many individuals arrive at mental health consultations already convinced there is something fundamentally wrong with them, highlighting a significant misconception in the field.
• Perhaps the most radical notion we discussed is the idea that there may be nothing inherently wrong with individuals; rather, they are simply navigating the complexities of being human.
• As we concluded, the essence of our conversation revolves around the power of connection, underscoring that true healing often emerges from shared human experiences rather than clinical interventions.

Links referenced in this episode:

• dr.fred360.com
• undoctoredreset.com

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What if the problem with the modern mental health is not just about that we don't know enough, but that we have forgotten how to listen?

What if healing doesn't start with fixing, diagnosing, or optimizing, but with something far more organic, human, and quietly radical?

So today's conversation, dear listeners, invites us to slow down and reconsider what actually heals.

So welcome to Healthy.

Welcome to the Mind Meets Machine, Dear listeners, the podcast where human experience meets systems, technology, and the questions we really force to ask.

And today I'm joined by a lovely guest.

Please welcome Fred Moss.

Dr. Fred Moss, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's great to be here.

I look forward to our conversation.

Amazing.

I'm really happy, Dr. Fred, that you joined us today.

And before we delve deep into our discussion, I'll quickly love to introduce you with all of our listeners.

So, dear listeners, Dr. Fred is a psychiatrist, mental health advocate, speaker, podcaster, and known to many as the UN Dr. UNDOC.

Undoctor.

Okay, my bad.

So, I mean, with over 46 years of experience in the mental health field, so this episode is an organic conversation about healing beyond diagnosis, the limits of protocols and wide presence, creativity and genuine human connection may be the most overlooked medicine that we have.

So why to wait?

Let's get started.

Welcome to the show again.

Thank you.

It's beautiful to be here.

I'm very much looking forward to our interchange.

Amazing.

Amazing.

So, Dr. Fred, like, before we talk about the systems or the solutions, I'm really, really curious that after decades inside psychiatry, what questions do you have?

I mean, you find yourself basically asking now that you didn't ask early in your career.

Yeah, I think the question of the day for me, and it is.

It seems like, you know, it is morning here, but I've already had some powerful conversations with friends and colleagues and.

Okay, you know, I've already been trying to make sense of this shit up.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I've already had that going on.

And it's only 8:30.

It's.

I'm already in, you know, full blast.

And so I think the question of the day is an advanced version of the question of where do I position myself in this whole, you know, this whole lattice, this whole ecosystem.

Where can I position myself where I can make the most important impact?

In other words, here.

Here's my point, Abby.

You know, we take on positions as life goes on.

You know, I graduate high school or I go to college, or I pick my wife or I pick a.

Or a job finds me.

Now I graduate college and now I'm going to medical school.

Oh, my God.

Who knew I was going to be a doctor?

I guess I'm going to be a doctor, and then I choose my specialty, and now I go to psychiatry.

And now I get spat out as a psychiatrist.

And now my identity has now been infected with.

Okay, dude, you're a psychiatrist.

Now go act like a psychiatrist.

Okay, you're a husband.

Now go act like a husband.

Okay, you're a father.

Now go act like a father.

Or you're an American.

Now go act like an American.

Maybe not, but you hear my point.

Like, or, you know, my religion or my neighborhood or what I stand for, my politics.

And these things tend to contract and typecast, like the things I can choose from.

As I'd reached this point in my life, I realized that I've been making up those contractions, and I now can walk to a place or find myself at a place, maybe unimagined by me up until now, where I can make a large difference in people's lives just by being me.

That's what I feel like is the gift that's in front of me.

Enough people tell me that they are moved a little bit by just simply being with me, that I don't have to try to be a good doctor or a good dad or a good partner or a good citizen or a good writer or a good podcaster.

What if I just was able to affect people by getting present to being present and just listening, you know, and being a connection for people right here, right now, to practice what I know rather than teach it from the front of the room?

I think that's the question is.

That's the question I have now that feels much more advanced than the question when I was just starting in the field.

Like, all right, where do I put myself so that I can be best utilized to move this whole conversation forward?

Exactly.

It's amazing.

And, like, I'd love to say that.

I mean, also, this question alone shifts us from the expertise to inquiry, like, from.

I'd say certainty to curiosity.

Right, so certainty to curiosity.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also because the certainty.

Real.

Exactly.

That's why you go from certainty to.

Because certainty doesn't work.

That's why anything I'm certain of, I shouldn't be.

Very true.

Very true.

Here.

One common misconception, if I have to talk about.

Because there's a common belief that mental health improves when we get the right diagnosis or maybe the right intervention, whatever.

Like, so from.

Yeah.

So from your perspective, where does that belief start?

To kind of fall short very early on in the.

In.

In.

Let's take it back a few steps underneath.

Mental health becomes more manageable when it's defined or diagnosed.

Let's.

Let's take it back a phase.

Okay.

It's hard to be a human.

Hello.

Yeah.

It's hard to be a human.

Exactly.

Look, I'm not just passing through that.

Okay.

It's hard to be a human.

And that word, hard to be a human is, I would say, actually.

Actually make you feel.

To feel that part.

Like, I'd say, like, hard to be human.

Right.

I totally, totally agree with you.

Like that.

Yeah.

Look.

Look how a smile.

Look how a smile comes on your face when you realize that.

I realize that it's hard to be a human.

Exactly.

You realize that I realize that it's hard to be you.

It's not simple being you.

It is difficult to be you.

It is difficult to be a human.

Now, if we start from there, rather than what's wrong with me, we might get to a space where we realize that there's never been anything wrong with you.

You've just been you.

You're just responding to the stumbling and bumbling and tumbling of what it means to try to be human Without a recipe book or owner's manual.

You don't know how to be a human, dude.

You don't know shit.

You don't know any more than me, and I don't know any more than them.

True.

And nobody really knows how to be a human.

So now we start getting into the whole concept of diagnosis.

What I'd like for you to realize is that diagnoses are not helpful.

Mental health diagnoses are not helpful.

They are traumatic and they are made up.

And they did not exist even 100 years ago.

Okay.

And people have lived literally tens of thousands, if maybe longer number of years without ever having to take on this weirdness called mental health diagnosis.

Mental health diagnosis.

Dude, you don't have a mental health diagnosis.

You do have a diagnosis, Avi.

But I think you already know.

But I can tell you, you already do have a diagnosis.

I know your diagnosis.

Do you want to know it?

Please.

I'm a clinician now.

46 Years.

Exactly when I'm about to say it matters.

Exactly.

I'm about to give a diagnosis from 12 away.

Yeah, I think you're about 12,000 miles away.

Yeah, I mean, it might be that.

I'm not sure.

So what's your.

What's your name of your city?

Are you in, like, Mumbai?

No, it's Bangalore.

Bangalore, yeah.

Okay.

Let's see how far you are away.

Just that away.

So from Mumbai, if it would be Mumbai, to San Francisco, it's 9,800 miles away.

So I'm about to give you a diagnosis from 9,800 miles.

It better be good.

Yeah, it better be.

Right.

What would be the use of me, like, building it up like this and having it not be.

It better be reliable.

It better work in Mumbai and San Francisco, because most diagnoses don't work in both.

Definitely.

Just because you have a diagnosis in Sacramento doesn't mean you even have a diagnosis in Bangor.

You could be a shaman in Bangor and be a schizophrenic in Sacramento.

Not true.

With broken arm, by the way.

You got a broken arm in Sacramento and you go to Mumbai, guess what?

You still got a broken arm.

That's not true with mental health.

So here comes your diagnosis.

You ready?

You sure?

I'm ready.

You strapped in?

Here we go.

Exactly.

Your diagnosis is Avi.

That's it.

That's it.

My man.

You're not any more like anybody or less like anybody than you are.

There's only.

You're a very rare condition.

Very rare.

Special.

You have a special edition.

You are Avi.

Yeah, that's it.

Exactly.

You're not bipolar, you're not schizophrenic, you're not autistic, you're not narcissistic.

You don't have ptsd, you don't have adhd, you don't have depression, you don't have anxiety, you don't have social phobia.

You don't have schizoaffective disorder.

You don't have any of that.

No.

You have one diagnosis of each.

That's right.

Yeah.

Now, that's where the stuff goes awry, because people come to a mental health professional thinking they already know that there's something wrong with them.

Exactly.

It is the only field that I know of in all of Western medicine, for which if I tell somebody that they're okay, they get pissed and they.

Can't take that thing that I am okay.

If you tell them that something is problematic inside you, then they'll be happy.

That's right.

They already come to the.

They come to the meeting not wanting to know if there's something wrong with them.

They come to the meeting wanting to know what is wrong with them.

Exactly.

This is the end difference.

Because they have already perceived that some problem is there inside.

Exactly.

They've already perceived that.

And they not only perceived it, they have Accepted it full scale.

Yeah.

So what if you know, the Zen masters and the spiritual ascended masters and the Zen, you know, wise people from the past, the writers and philosophers and theologists.

Theologians.

Theologians.

The theo.

I think anyway.

Theologists.

Yeah, yeah.

They all have spoken to that maybe it's okay to just embrace it all that the value is to stop valuing.

Maybe there's nothing wrong with you.

Maybe this is just how it is.

And maybe the only diagnosis worth noting at all.

True.

Is your name.

I have a diagnosis too, okay.

It's not the same as yours.

I bet you now can guess what my diagnosis is.

So.

Yes, your diagnosis is definitely Dr. Fred.

No, that's my diagnosis.

Yeah.

Oh, and maybe not even Dr. Fred.

Maybe it's just Fred.

Because once you give me Dr. Fred.

We already talked about it.

Once you give me doctor, My identity shrinks.

Yes.

Yeah.

Now I have to act like a doctor.

Correct.

So Fred precedes Dr.

True.

Because I've been Fred the whole ride.

Yeah.

And Fred chose enough decisions to wind himself up being a doctor and now he includes that into his identity.

But really it's an add on.

It's not real.

It's not really.

I'm not really.

Am I a doctor?

For sure.

I got the paperwork to support it.

But am I a doctor?

No.

I'm Fred first.

Right.

As a bigger.

It's a bigger playground.

As human playground.

As a bigger playground, exactly.

And what am I here to do?

What am I here?

How can I position myself to actually have a worthwhile life for the part that's still left?

So I hope that answers your innocuous question.

Yeah, definitely.

But.

But it's really great to hear from you because it actually sounds like very simple that.

Yeah, we know.

Yeah, fine.

But we tend to miss this simple understanding and we always try to get into those complications where we love to hear like you mentioned about, like when people come to you, they always.

They already know.

They have already believed that there is some issues.

So that is something we always try to get rid of the complications rather than.

It's very simple.

We are a human.

We are simple.

So that's.

That's great that you explained.

I believe a lot of people will be able to relate and look, I.

Didn't say anything even controversial.

There's nothing I said that is controversial.

There's just like I respect you as a human.

Wouldn't it be great if I respected everyone as a human?

Exactly.

It's hard to be.

It's hard to be a human.

It's hard to be A human marsha.

It is.

It is sadness, fears, loss, desires, unmet regrets, resentments, jealousies, confusion, aimlessness, helplessness.

True.

They are all part of this.

Exactly.

For every one of us.

See, we overlook that.

We just think we all should have that shit all put together.

After all, we got dressed this morning and showed up at work.

So we must have all that stuff already put together.

I don't know about all that.

If you ever met somebody who has all that shit put together, unless his name was like, Siddhartha.

Unless his name was like Gautama, Yeah, you need to just let him go, because they don't have it all together.

You meet the Buddha on the side of the road, what do you do?

You gotta kill him.

See, nobody has this shit together, bro.

Yeah, exactly.

And people think they do.

They come up with something that works temporarily, and then they pound the drum that they got the answer.

It's really here.

Look, what's really here in the world of mental health, you know, let's get us back to track.

Is if we start with the idea that there might be nothing wrong with you in the first place, then you'll never need a diagnosis that's more than your name.

And if you don't need a diagnosis, then you don't need to be fixed.

True.

If you don't need to be fixed, then you don't need therapy.

If you don't need therapy, then you don't need medications.

Exactly.

And if the medications actually work to, like, embellish and sometimes perpetuate the symptoms they're marketed to treat.

Now you have your cycle where you know there's something wrong with you.

How do you know?

Because a doctor told you.

How do you.

What are you doing about it?

I'm getting therapy and medicine.

What is the medicine doing for you?

Not very much, except making me worse.

And now what do I get to do?

I get to go to the doctor every month.

And what does the doctor do?

He proves that there's something wrong with me every month.

And why do I know that?

Because he gives me treatment to fix me.

And how does he fix me?

He gives me therapies and special ways to think and talk.

And then he gives me some medication that I'm supposed to take that actually if I take it, it's my choice, not his choice.

His or her.

I get to choose whether or not I take that medicine.

But every morning when I put that medicine in my mouth, I am quietly confirming that I agree that there's something wrong with me.

Exactly.

And this happens a lot I mean,.

Dude, this happens hundreds of millions of times per day.

Exactly.

Yeah.

This doesn't just happen a lot.

This happens hundreds of millions of times per day.

Let's understand that.

Definitely.

That isn't the only way it could go.

It is the way that it's going.

It's not the only way that it can go.

However, it is the way that it's going.

Yeah, no problem.

Really, no problem.

It is what it is, you know, that's what's happening.

But is it the only way?

Is it the only way life could go?

No way.

And here's the other question I have for you.

In order to change this, does everyone else have to change or do you.

It's me.

It's an inside job, isn't it?

Yes, exactly.

It's an inside job.

Yes, it is.

So in other words, you can break away, like, right now.

Very true.

Yeah.

It's all in our brain here in our head.

What we are thinking, what we are feeling, what we are doing.

Everything is getting restored, processed, and again will make you think, okay, you are doing this, you are doing this, you are doing this.

So, yes, totally agree.

It has to be from inside.

And so here, one more thing is like, as you totally, totally correct that you mentioned, it's happening daily.

It's happening daily.

Hundreds of millions, Hundreds and millions of.

Yeah, every freaking day, dude.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

So.

So here I. I definitely love to.

I mean, it is.

It is us only.

We.

We are thinking about it.

We are believing this.

But when we say we have to change it from inside, it has to be us only.

How can I take that first step?

Because I totally feel that people will be in dilemma.

Yeah.

So what is the first step?

I think the first step is a willingness to believe there might be nothing wrong with you.

I really do believe that that's the first step.

A willingness.

You don't have to believe it yet, but a willingness to consider believing that there might be nothing wrong with you.

I think that's the first step.

Then there are some daily practices to consider that can confirm or have you feel optimized, steady, grounded.

I think you know where I'm probably going with this.

But, you know, in the world of gratitude, for instance, when I wake up, I put my hand on my heart before I'm even out of bed.

I got my wife lying next to me, gorgeous, incredible, amazing partner.

I'm not this guy without her that says for sure she's first on my list.

I say her name.

Then I got these three cats, okay?

And I might say all three of their names, or I might just include them as cats.

And then I.

Whatever.

I got food in my fridge.

I got friends and coaches, colleagues, partners, supporters.

I have my health.

I woke up another day, another opportunity to make sense of this crazy freaking shit.

Like, I get to be grateful.

So gratitude is very important.

Okay.

Then I find myself stepping outside, seeing the universe, whatever expansive notion of how infinite is it?

Is it really infinite?

What is going on over there?

Got the sun, got the moon, got the wind and the squirrels and the trees.

Can I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Kind of a God connection there.

And then shortly after that, I'm sitting for 20 minutes, okay, quietly, silently, still, and just allowing myself to do what I can to ground.

So meditation is a great space.

A great space to see that you don't have to be your feelings and your thoughts and your emotions and your sensations, that you can have all those things without becoming any of them.

True.

So if you want to know the first space of where can you go to figure out that there might be nothing wrong with you?

Try gratitude, nature and meditation.

Let's go.

And then watch what you put in your mouth.

Watch what you're looking at.

Watch what you're listening to.

Watch who you're hanging out with.

It's not going to be perfect.

You'll find yourself with the wrong crowd sometimes.

Or maybe you'll be listening to some bad stuff.

Or maybe you'll be watching some dangerous stuff.

So you have to constantly just mitigate.

Yep.

Because those things become us.

Those things soak in and they become the context from which we live life.

But if we can monitor those things, what do we put into our system?

Through our eyes, through our ears, through our mouth, through our spirit.

Exactly.

Then we can start to see that we can relieve ourselves from believing that there's something wrong with us.

There is one condition that each of us has and each of us share a similar.

You know, each of us share a similar diagnosis.

You have human sub, Avi.

Okay, I have human sub, Fred.

Because before I was Fred, I was human.

Right.

Before I was doctor, I was Fred.

Before I was Fred, I was human.

So it's even deeper.

And what have we already said about human?

It's hard to be a human.

It's hard to be a human.

But look what happens when two men connect.

Look what happens when we connect.

You got something better than this in your life?

Because I don't.

You got something more valuable than human connection in your life.

Nothing.

I don't.

Yeah.

And it's irreplaceable it's irreplaceable.

Like you cannot replace the human connection, that physical touch, with anything you can.

And yet, inside of this audio visual connection, as we both stare at flat, pixelated screens and pretend to be with each other, we can resonate harmonically together and healing takes place.

Yes.

Not only for us, but for anyone having the courage to listen to us.

Exactly.

I don't have a better cure.

Dude,.

That's the best medicine.

That's the best medicine, I would say.

Yeah.

Obviously, it's flipping obvious.

Yeah.

Even if hundreds of millions of people per day choose a different direction.

Yeah.

That doesn't make it the best direction.

That only makes it the most common direction.

And being most common does not suggest that it's the best.

This is a terrific example of that.

Yeah.

Let me ask you a question.

When you look at these hundreds of millions of people per day who follow the other path that we've already laid out, if instead of taking that ever, they took this morning to confirm that there was something wrong with them and they needed some assistance, if they instead were given an opportunity to connect with another person instead of eating that pill, would they have been more satisfied?

Would they have gotten better results?

So, yes.

I mean, if I have to say, in terms of naturally, if we put someone with a person to interact, to connect with, instead of having the pill.

So when they come together and they will interact, they will share, they will discuss, listen.

Yes.

So that will definitely change that aura and will change their whole life.

Whole life?

Yes, their whole life.

So no need of that pill also.

Exactly.

Of course not now.

Of course not.

But if the pills not only are not working, but in fact are smothering our spirit, then the whole idea of connection becomes further and further away.

If this thing is sort of filling the holes so we're no longer interested in creating connection because we've been smothered.

Our emotions get smothered by the pills.

Now you're unable to find a cure because you're unable to truly connect with people.

So it seems to me that there's no side effects either.

And you don't need a doctor's authorization.

You don't need a diagnosis to connect with somebody.

You don't need an education in higher education, college or university at Harvard to learn how to connect with somebody.

And since that's the most potent medication known to mankind, each and every one of us is then a physician, because we can provide the very honorable, highest level medicine to another human being.

And isn't that what a physician does?

Exactly.

True.

Because each of us has the tools to connect.

Very true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, it's, it's really great to hear from you about these very simple things.

And if someone wants to connect with you, wants to know more about it, know more in details, so how they can connect with you.

Yeah.

So, you know, I have two websites.

The first one I'd like to send people to is Dr. Fred Dr.fred360.com okay.

And there you can get access to everything I'm doing everywhere.

Very.

It's a very cool site.

Very, very cool looking and provides access to me.

You can create a discovery call.

You can see all my books, you can see my speeches, my podcast and my freebies.

See a lot of, lot of access to my social media, all that.

So that's a cool place.

And in that discovery call, that's when we would set up, like, learning what is the issue?

What is it that you think you need help with?

What is it that you think Fred Moss can bring to help your world?

Yeah.

If that's interesting to you, then reach out and we'll set up a conversation.

What can Fred Moss bring to my world?

Okay, I. I'm down.

Let's go.

If you heard something or you see something and you feel like you want to talk to me, then let's make that happen.

Lovely.

I also troll around Facebook.

I man, don't count on me being there very much longer.

It's.

It's tough for me to find value in Facebook, but I'm rather addicted and I just don't like it.

I like LinkedIn a lot better.

So reaching out for Dr. Fred Moss on LinkedIn is an okay place.

Yep.

And then I have now I'm interested in undoctor reset, in helping people learn how to take people off of their diagnoses.

So undoctored reset.com is another place.

And they were creating retreats so I can teach clinicians and loving caregivers how to become an undoctor, how to utilize this skill that God gave you that is the physician's greatest tool, which is the greatest medicine known to mankind that you already possess, called the capacity to be a connected human.

So that's what we're doing, and that's@ undoctored reset.com so thanks for having a killer conversation, Avi.

My dude.

Exactly.

I also love to say that this is really, really great contribution and having a great chat with you.

And dear listeners, I'd love to say that I have visited Dr. Fred's website.

So Dr. Fred360.com and you will feel like you.

You are welcome to Humanity books and or the podcasts.

So I'll put all the links and the details into the show notes.

For your easy reference, please visit.

Please have a look.

Connect with him and thank you so much for joining on Mind Meets Machine.

And if today's conversation stayed with you, take a moment to notice like where your life is asking for more presence and less performance.

So until next time, stay human.

Obviously stay curious and let what's organic lead the way because being a human is very is hard to be a human.

So have a great day.

Thank you so much.