It's the very first episode of Reader's Advisory: Rochester's Book Club! Join our four librarians as they take it all the way back to 1847 and Emily Brontë's classic Wuthering Heights. Stick around for a discussion of the recent film adaptation starring Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi. Find us on Intstagram at @ReadersAdvisoryRoc

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Hello and welcome to episode one of Reader's Advisory, which is Rochester's Book Club.

My name is Jim and I'm one of four librarians co hosts guiding you on this adventure through literature here on the Lunchadore Podcast network.

I will let the other punk ass book jockeys assembled here introduce themselves, please.

Oh, I'll start first.

Hi, everyone.

My name is Rachel.

I'm a school librarian in the Rochester area.

Very excited to talk about Wuthering Heights today.

My name is also Rachel.

I am a public librarian in the OWL system in our neighboring counties.

And I'm Robin.

Sorry to discontinue the Rachel's, but I am also a public librarian in the MCLS system, just like Jim.

And you didn't discontinue the Rachel's.

I'd be pretty quick to do that.

To cut them short there.

Yeah, I just changed it up.

You have a different name.

Yeah.

All right, so, yeah, Wuthering Heights.

Who?

We spoiled it there.

Right?

That's first book one here that we're talking about.

Why?

Why did we pick this book?

How did we get here to begin with?

Good, good, good question.

So, I mean, Rachel.

It was my idea.

Rachel, obsessed with Wuthering Heights.

Here's the thing about Wuthering Heights.

I'm not normal about it.

Every day I wake up and I think about that book.

It haunts me the way it haunts Heathcliff.

It haunts me, man.

I wrote when I was 22 years old in one day, and I've been feral ever since.

I watched like six adaptations within the span of a week.

They're all bad.

Right.

But I just really, really think it's a phenomenal book.

With the new adaptation coming out, obviously the book is getting a lot more attention, which I think is amazing.

So we kind of thought it would be relevant and cool to talk about because there's a lot there.

Yeah.

Always with the adaptations coming out, I think it's fun working the libraries.

We saw that, the whole list, there's a major uptick.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Which is.

Yeah.

Exciting as a librarian.

To see, I think.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

To see people excited about classic literature.

That never happens.

I had at one point a call from someone who was like, you can take me off of the hold list, because my daughter just gave me a copy and she was number 300.

300.

And I was like, all right, girl.

I don't think ours got that bad.

No, 300 is incredible that it's usually reserved for whatever new book of the day.

Like the new Kristin Hannah.

Yeah, Kristin Hannah.

What's the new one now?

Something about Theo of Golden.

Theo of Golden, Yes.

Sorry, yeah, sorry, we're gonna.

Sorry.

With the inside baseball library talk.

But Wuthering Heights, the film came out what, in March?

Something like that.

It actually came out on Valentine's Day, which is insane to think about having read this book.

This is not a romantic book.

It's not a romantic book.

I kind of love that.

I think it's funny.

I'm like, imagine all the.

Well, the movie itself.

We'll talk about that later.

But it's not a romantic book at all.

That's not the intention or the purpose.

It's a gothic romance.

Objectively, if you're going to categorize it through like a literature lens.

I'm no English teacher, but if you were.

It's a gothic romance for sure.

But I wouldn't say it's necessarily romantic.

No, no.

It's two horrible people.

I mean, for the first section of the book, it's two horrible people torturing each other.

Yeah.

Essentially in a way that I find interesting and fun.

But I really feel like we should dive a little bit into like the context surrounding the book too.

Yeah.

Kind of give some, some ideas about Emily Bronte.

Could we.

Right quick.

Have you give an elevator pitch for this book.

Give like a plot summary right quick.

Maybe hit the major players.

Yeah, sure.

So unfortunately major players, everyone has the same name.

So that's the first kind of hurdle you got to overcome there.

And it's told through like interesting perspectives.

So basically we follow like this mass, like multi generational story of these people suffering throughout Yorkshire, England.

And you kind of follow these two main characters, Heathcliff and Catherine, and their obsessive love and hatred of one another beginning in their childhood.

And then eventually she marries someone else.

He's very upset about this, so he leaves for several years.

They don't know where he goes.

He comes back very wealthy and rich.

He was previously a servant.

And basically it's kind of spirals out from there.

She like has a mental breakdown because of this.

He's obsessed with getting revenge on everyone who has separated them from each other.

So he's very, very vengeful, not only on her, but on her husband, her sister in law, her brother who used to abuse him as a child.

Like it's very, very intense.

Right.

His revenge and this cycle of violence kind of continues into the second half of the book.

Where can I spoil?

What happens is that It's.

It's a.

Literally a. Yeah, well, it's.

It's pretty old.

So.

So Kathy, unfortunately, she becomes pregnant through her husband Edgar, and she unfortunately passes away in childbirth.

So the second half of the book, instead of following their love story, is kind of following Heathcliff as he's chasing this ghost of this woman that he is obsessed with and loves and the second generation of children, because Heathcliff, of course, steals away Edgar.

This is all confusing, guys.

I'm sorry, but Edgar, Kathy's husband, has a sister, Isabella, and Heathcliff marries her and abuses her and eventually she flees and leaves him.

Right.

But not before, of course, she gets pregnant.

So she has a kid with Heathcliff and then Kathy has a kid with Edgar.

Right.

So just to make it worse, Kathy's kid is named Kathy.

It's so confusing.

It's so confusing.

It's awful.

It sounds romantic.

Yeah, you would.

You kind of sleep if you, like, named it after his wife.

Summary.

It's like, oh, my goodness, Star Crossed Lovers.

But then you actually read the book and you're like, oh, Heathcliff genuinely really sucks as a person.

He's just like the worst person ever.

And so Catherine's older brother Henley, who used to abuse Heathcliff as a child, also has a son who's named Hareton.

So there's like three kids in the middle.

So it's kind of just to make it worse, it's Kathy, too.

We'll call her Kathy, too.

And it's Isabella's son, who she named Linton, which is her former maiden name.

And then they're Kathy's brother Henley's son, Hareton.

So it's those three kids and then Heathcliff, and he's just kind of terrorizing them for half the book.

But it's a really interesting kind of story because it's, like, about love.

I don't know.

And to make it a little bit worse, most of these names are recycled from the previous generation.

Yeah.

As well.

And they all start with H or L. Yeah.

Yes.

Yep.

So confusing.

Except for Kathy.

Very much so.

It's literally just drama.

And Edgar, Isabelle and Kathy.

Yes.

Yep.

And it's so confusing because it's like Isabella and Heathcliff's son is named Linton Heathcliff.

And then Kathy 2 is Katherine Linton, but also her mother was Catherine Linton because she gets married.

And then there's Hareton Earnshaw and Catherine.

One was originally Catherine Earnshaw.

There's one point where the Point of View character, who is none of these people.

Darkwood.

Another L. Another One finds.

This is how the plot gets kicked off.

He finds scratched into a window frame.

Catherine Earnshaw, Katherine Linton, Catherine Heathcliff.

Yes.

And it's not 100% clear for a long time whether it was Kathy1 or Cathy2 that wrote those in the windowsill.

Wait, did this book invent the start at the end and flashback?

It's one of the entire plot until you get to the end.

If it didn't invent it, it made it popular.

Oh, my God.

I actually have some notes about this.

Please.

So I brought in.

And one of the books that they go over is Wuthering Heights.

It gave me a lot of context that I needed before I was willing to tackle Wuthering Heights because it's an incredibly dense book.

And it begins with a couple paragraphs comparing it to Frankenstein, where they are both pretty much.

It's called evidentiary narrative techniques in this book.

Where it's.

A lot of.

It's epistolary, a lot of it's other people telling other people's stories.

It's.

None of this is coming firsthand.

You don't actually get to see what's happening at any point in either of these books, which is one of the ways in which they're really interesting to compare and contrast, which apparently Mary Shelley hated.

She did not.

She did not want to be compared and contrasted to Wuthering Heights because hers was, you know, it was a masculine story, of course.

And then there was the romance of Wuthering Heights, which was a big.

You know, it's so different.

It's so girly.

Just girly things.

Oh, my God.

Going crazy on the morgues.

Not though I don't.

Killing cats.

No.

That's a romantic moment.

It's like straight up torture for these characters.

It's the feminine rage of it all.

I think the most really, really what's compelling about the story is the.

The torture that Heathcliff and Kathy inflict upon one another and on everyone surrounding them for seemingly like.

For very obvious reasons.

But I think it's mostly just like they are responding to the suffering of their own environment.

Right.

Like, Cappy is so constrained by what society demands of women at that time, which was marrying well, marrying safe.

Right.

So she kind of has this path before her between, like, chaos and, like, security.

Yeah.

And that's kind of her decision that she has to make.

Whereas Heathcliff, of course, in the book, there's much debate about Heathcliff's race.

That's like a huge element of this because referred to as Alaska, who's refuted as being dark.

Right.

And it's implied that he's Liverpool.

So speaking gibberish from Liverpool, which at the time was a slave port.

So the kind of the conversation is, is Heathcliff Romani?

Potentially?

Is he, you know, Southeast Asian?

Is he African?

Is he Irish, even?

That's also been a debate because some context for Emily Bronte.

Her father was an Irish immigrant.

And so he dealt with.

He actually changed his last name because he felt like he was being discriminated against far too much as a curate in Yorkshire, in England at the time.

So it's really kind of interesting having that social context of, like, the abuses that they endure, the othering that Heathcliff experiences.

And we're not really meant to know exactly what he is.

That's like, not the point.

The point is that according to English society, he's other.

Yeah.

And that's what they really frown on and great against, you know.

And Kathy, of course, is so, like, volatile and wild, but, like, forced to be in this position where she feels like she must constrain.

Not that it's something that she's not comfortable with, which I think is super interesting to explore about her.

Yeah, I would agree with that.

I mean, so the interesting thing about these characters, because you were.

When you were just talking right now, I was like, this is a complicated setup, right?

So Heathcliff comes in when he's what, like nine or ten into the family?

Yeah.

And he's like, basically, like speaking gibberish, if not basically mute.

Like, he doesn't speak.

Right.

So Catherine's father, like, finds him and brings him back to the family home and is like, this is my new son.

It's more fun than that.

Okay, go ahead.

This is one of the things that.

It's one of the things that stuck with me about the Mad Woman and the addicts analysis of Wuthering Heights is when their father goes away.

He asks both of his children what they want.

The son wants a fiddle, Kathy wants a whip.

I forgot about that.

He brings back the fiddle and he brings Heathcliff.

And he says, I couldn't get you a whip.

Here's this boy.

So a lot of the analysis in the Mad Woman in the Attic is looking at Heathcliff as Kathy's whip.

He is the way she enacts her will on the world.

She is the buffer for her against her domineering brother.

She is how he or he is how she accesses masculine power and prestige, which works for their childhood.

And then they hit puberty, and then it doesn't work anymore.

Yeah.

And it's both of them being like, hey, wait, I want to go back and destroying everyone around them and themselves to try and get back to that.

But he is set up from the very beginning as a weapon that she can use.

That's so.

That's such an interesting take.

I really think what really speaks to me honestly is kind of like the.

The lack of moral that the book itself has.

I mean, this was a book that was published during the Victorian era.

Right.

Which is, like, very, very constrained to my understanding.

Once again, I'm no expert, but I feel like it's really fascinating to me just like the contradiction that the book itself has within it.

Like, Heathcliff is both a victim and a villain.

You know, Catherine is both insane, but also incredibly lucid of what's happening around her and what decisions she has to make.

You know, and it really puts you in a position where you are holding all of these contradictions about these people.

And, you know, Emily Bronte does not expect you to make sense of that.

She's saying, hold it.

You know, there's no.

There's no hero in this story.

You know, and it's really cool because I really think the overarching, kind of, like, theme of that is that love is not moral.

Right.

It's.

It's asking the question, is love something that's moral?

Is that something we can prescribe to it?

Or is that, like, something that's not even moral?

You know, because obviously Heathcliff and Cathy's love tears them and everyone else around them apart, like, in a very visceral and fascinating kind of way.

So I think it's really, really interesting.

You know, the tragedy's deeper promise is it's not moral judgment, it's transformation.

I just.

I quite like it.

Yeah.

You mentioned the author, Emily Bronte.

Can you give us.

How was this book received?

This is her only novel, correct?

That's a good question, Jim.

And where's this coming from?

I mean, it's so.

The way we're explaining this, it's incredible.

Well, for a first novel and only novel, it's so deep, and I just need some background on that.

I can touch on it a little bit.

Touch on a little bit, and then I'll go further.

Yeah.

So she had a lot of Juvenalia with her sisters, but this was her first and Only real novel.

But the analysis gets into parts of the Juvenalia that she brought in too.

So she had a, like, women's monarchy in her Juvenalia with her sisters, which is a lot of what the Moors are.

When Cathy and Heathcliff are running wild as children.

It is.

It is a queendom.

She is in charge of it.

So it's not that Emily didn't have writing going on.

It is just that, you know, she died pretty young, but she came from a very literary family.

What is a Juvenalia?

I was gonna ask the same question.

It is things that were written in the early adolescence.

Adolescence.

Early adulthood.

It's the early writings of a writer.

So Juvenalia is a lot of stuff that's going to be less expert than what we think of.

Like Virginia Woolf had Juvenalia, you know, and we don't read that anymore.

Unless you're really into her.

The fanfic that my friends and I wrote in high school.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's very bad.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the fictional worlds that you and your friends come up with when you're playing in the woods with each other.

Yes.

It's very.

They called it.

It was Emily and her sister Ian, and they called it Gondolin.

That was their fictional universe they came up with.

And it's very cool because you can, you know, obviously, unfortunately, there's.

There's a lot of controversy around the whole family, but a lot of people speculate that her sister Charlotte Bronte, who wrote Jane Eyre, didn't like Emily, which isn't true.

That's not true.

Here to lay that down.

That didn't happen.

But a lot of people think that because she burned a lot of her letters and a lot of her journal entries and writing after.

But little known fact is that that was kind of the common practice after someone were passing away, especially in a sudden way that Emily did, that you would burn a lot of their letters just out of respect for them, because you don't want people obviously reading that.

I mean, imagine if someone had your texts.

No thanks.

Right.

And they published them 100 years after you died because you're like famous for writing a book or something.

That's just deeply humiliating.

No one wants that.

Yeah.

Need to see my typos like that.

I'm actually super good on that.

Yeah, we're all set there.

But they.

They were a very literary family.

It's really, really fascinating.

So their father, as I said earlier, Irish immigrant, and they settle in Yorkshire.

I think it's in Yorkshire.

I'm Just saying that because that's where the book is.

I don't know.

But it's in England.

I know that.

But basically, it's actually.

It's deeply devastating.

There were six kids total in her family, which is crazy.

Their mother died of what they suspect is either like, uterine cancer or potentially childbirth complications when she had her last daughter, Ann.

So already they're motherless, and their aunt comes in, helps take care of them.

And then, unfortunately, this.

It just gets worse.

They.

The girls get sent.

There's five girls, and they get sent to a boarding school.

And unfortunately, their two older sisters, Mary and, I think Elizabeth, both die at the boarding school when they're like, 10 or 11.

And this happens.

And then I guess their dad is like, you know, maybe it's not the best environment for my kids.

So he takes the girls back out and he homeschools them, which makes everything about the Bronte sisters make so much sense.

Not to stereotype homeschoolers.

I feel like I'm allowed to do that because I was homeschooled.

But it's, like, very interesting because the.

The daughters are very, like, insular.

Especially Emily.

She's borderline, like, agoraphobic.

Like, she hates going out.

She hates talking to people.

There's remarks have been made that, like, when she would go about town, she would speak in, like, one word syllables.

Like, she loved her dogs, and she was not a fan of being out in public, not a fan of people.

She was extremely, like, just, like, closed off and preferred being at home.

I know at one point she and her sister Charlotte went to Belgium, and they tried to, like, teach at, like, a women's college.

And they were ostracized in their mid-20s just because being a little bit older than the other women that were there.

And then also, Emily refused to dress like the women in Brussels.

She was very set, like, I'm going to be how I am, and I don't want to look like you.

She was almost.

I'm like, kind of a pick me behavior on her part.

But whatever girl, who is she trying.

To get to pick her?

No one.

That's the funny thing.

She's just, like, being her little authentic, little funky self.

And so she moves back home.

She's living at home.

She's very close with her sister and with her brother Branwell.

And unfortunately, Branwell then passes away due to a mixture of, you know, drug abuse and alcoholism and tuberculosis.

That's devastating.

And this is also sad and true, but allegedly, at his funeral, she catches a cold and she's slowly.

Less than a year after Wuthering Heights was published, she.

She passes away at age 30.

So it's really kind of awful just because the book itself, now it's so like it's taught in schools.

It's incredible.

It's a classic.

It's so revered and it should be.

But at the time it was published, it was like, reverted to as like.

It was barbaric and vulgar and disgusting just because it's.

Even while she was still alive.

While she was alive.

And there's, there's evidence that she had read some of these reviews because she kept a couple of them in her desk.

I'm surprised.

How did.

Do you know how she went about publishing it?

I mean, if she was agoraphobic like you say, did she like, would you want your.

So it was at Charlotte's encourage.

So.

So Charlotte and Emily had come back.

I don't know where Anne was at that point, but the sisters were all kind of like regathering themselves and figuring out what they were going to do with themselves.

And Charlotte found a bunch of Emily's poems that she had written and she was very impressed with her sister's writing and very much encouraged her to, to publish this.

And so the sisters gathered a bunch, I think it was all of their poems together and they published under male pseudonyms and it was like Currer Bell.

The Bell.

It was Currer, Ellis and Acton, I think.

And they published their poems and they got really, really famous.

Now they sold two copies, so.

Sold two copies.

And they're like, we did it, guys.

We're amazing.

But this kind of inspired Charlotte.

She was like, I really think we need to like, make this a family thing.

So all the girls kind of started writing and Charlotte really pushed Emily to write this novel.

What's actually really devastating is they kind of had this allegedly.

Once again, I hear this from podcast guys, we need to double fact check me, fact check me.

But Emily, they kind of had like a shitty publisher.

And they're basically put into this situation where like her work was published without her final edits.

Which is why when Charlotte publishes the second edition that we see later after Emily's death, some time after, you're going to see some edits, especially with like the language, like Joseph's language is clarified a little bit.

Like a lot of like the grammar things are fixed and roughed up and a lot of people would object to that.

But it's actually like Emily Bronte was making those edits.

The publisher never put them in the book and then the edits were then lost.

So we actually don't know what Emily's final version of Wuthering Heights would have been.

We technically have the draft crazy, which is wild.

I just learned that probably, like, four hours ago.

And I was like, whoa, how did you.

I mean, you're the number one fan of this book on the podcast, at least when you first.

Possibly in the world.

I was gonna say.

I think in the world.

In the world, maybe.

Yeah.

No way.

So why did you pick it up in the first place?

Well, I was introduced to Jane Eyre first.

Charlotte Bronte.

I read Jane Eyre when I was a teenager.

I was obsessed with it.

I watched every single movie version of it.

I could get my hands read it multiple times.

I was such a big fan of it.

It's just.

It really spoke to me.

I think Gene's resilience in that novel.

I really saw a lot of myself in that as a teenager.

But I was sitting at home and I feel kind of like.

Kind of like that better about myself when I read a classic, I'm like, so I'm better than everyone else when I read a classic, I'm just superior.

So feeling kind of like, really, like.

You know what?

I think it's about time.

I need to really read Wuthering Heights.

I've been putting it off, and I love Jane Eyre.

Maybe I'll end up loving this.

I will say, having read both, they're very different books.

Oh, yeah.

Like, it is not a thing where, like, oh, if you really like Jane Eyre, try Wuthering Heights.

It's not the same.

Oh, yeah.

I've always been a Jane Eyre girly.

Overall, I.

Me too.

I love Jane Eyre.

That's my girl.

Jane Eyre's my girl.

But Wuthering Heights, it's just psychotic and deeply unwell in every way.

Like, they're deranged and crazy and something about them just foaming at the mouth, killing each other, biting, banging his head.

Against a tree, banging his head against.

A tree, killing cat, exhuming her corpse and trying to have sex with it.

I'm just, wow, you guys are wild.

I need everyone to know that there were points when I was reading this last summer, and I would just text a screenshot of the ebook to Rachel, and she would call me immediately.

I don't know where she was in her workday.

I was on my lunch break, but she would just call me, like, less than two minutes later.

She'd be like.

And tell me where you're at now.

And I'm like, just about where you saw it.

I'm not that fast of a reader.

I just think that, like, I don't know, something about the language of her work really, really speaks to me.

Just like the whole, like, Cathy says a speech to Nellie.

She says, like, his souls.

He's more myself than I am.

Whatever our souls are made of, his and mine are the same, which is just such a beautiful, vivid way to describe two people.

And then what really speaks to me is when Kathy is dying and Heathcliff finds out she's.

She's dead, and he finds out that she's dead.

He, like, first of all, he howls like a dog is what it's compared to.

And then he's like, oh, she's a liar, right to the end, you know?

And he goes off in this rant, basically, where he's like, you say I killed you.

You say I'm.

You're my murderer, that I killed you.

Haunt me, then.

Take any form.

Drive me mad.

Only do not leave me in this abyss where I cannot find you.

I cannot live without my life.

I cannot live without my soul.

And, like, that kind of deep, deep feeling that he's expressing in that moment just really hit me.

I was like, you know, being 22 and you read that, you're like, oh, my God, I've never heard that before.

Like, it just, like, I really know love before this.

Like, you know, those moments would, like when boys watch Fight Club and they're like, that changed my life.

Or when women.

When us girls will watch Gone Girl.

And you hear the cool girl monologue, and you're like, oh, my God, life changing.

That was me with the entire Book of Wuthering Heights.

I was like, no, wait.

This is literally.

I feel something shifted in me.

I'm a different person.

I think an important note for any listeners is she did have that memorized.

That was not referenced in any way.

That was just off the dome, literally.

I've read it quite a bit.

I think it's fun.

I just think it's neat.

How many times have you have you read this book?

Do you think?

I'm not, actually.

You see, here's the thing is that I talk a lot about it, and I've seen every single version I can get my hands on of it.

I probably read it, like, three or four times.

Okay.

I would say, so that's one a year, essentially.

Also, I do not have any books I've read four times.

Not since I was a child.

Not since I was a child.

A sad life.

And it's a dense book.

It is a dense book that you read in one day, my friend.

Yeah, I think that's going to be a really interesting topic when guests start coming over to ask, like, how many times have you read this book?

Yeah.

Because it's such an interesting dynamic.

There's some books that I read in high school that maybe I revisited again.

Hosting, you know, facilitating a great novels book club at work or something like that.

But out of choice, not as much so.

But you learn so much more the second time through.

For me, I don't absorb as much on that first go through.

It's like the second reading, then after having conversations like this where you like, oh, oh, that's what's happening there.

Like, and then.

And it opens up to you in different ways.

So the reread is worth it if you.

But, you know, we're only here so long, so sometimes I get, you know,.

There's so many books in this world.

You also like reading it at different points in your life.

You'll pick up different things.

Like in high school, I did not pick up on how much incest is in this book.

Yeah.

Can we speak to the incest?

Speak to it.

I was hoping we could.

Oh.

Oh, well, I can.

It is the number one note, I think.

No, it's not.

I mean, I like episode one.

We're getting right into incest.

That's like, it's.

Look, I wrote up notes.

I wrote up notes, and there is a massive, massive chunk on my page that is just about incest.

Yeah.

Because it's, like, kind of crazy.

Do you want to, like, start us off?

Yeah.

So, like I was talking about earlier, Heathcliff and Catherine are essentially set up as, like, adoptive siblings, foster siblings, you could almost say.

And then, like Rachel said earlier, puberty hits and everything changes and they're just like, oh, my God, you are the one for me.

And then Mr. Earnshaw dies and Kathy goes.

Gets bit by a dog, goes to the.

The Linton's house.

And then she gets married to Edgar, I guess.

I mean, like, then she has a baby, he has a baby.

Those babies get married.

It's definitely like, very like, oh, those babies get married.

His baby.

Oh, yeah, they do, yeah.

And their cousins.

There's already cousin.

That's already, like, a part of it now.

I'm kind of like.

It's very almost alarming how quickly I dismiss that.

I'm like, well, you know, like, they didn't.

It was the 18 Darwin.

Like, they all.

Yeah, they all married.

Marrying your cousin was, like, a super common thing.

Like, I.

It's not, like, crazy common, but it did happen because they love the idea of, like, keeping estates within the same, like, family.

So keeping the family.

Awful.

Anyway, but I do have to speak on.

On the incest of it all because that's definitely something that people have been picking up on for, like, 100 years or something longer.

Ever since the book came out, it's been a piece of the conversation has been that kind of what's going on there.

Because the part of the theory is whether or not Heathcliff is actually Mr. Earnshaw's son.

Okay.

That's a debate that people have a lot, really.

So he just.

Yeah, they think that he's his bastard, his illegitimate son.

Yeah.

And so that's kind of like a conversation, too.

It's like, why, like, you don't really get to know his motives for having this.

This child that he suddenly brings into the house from lover.

Yeah, it's a little stressful.

It's a little sus.

That's a really good.

I had not heard that before.

And that actually brings up something that I wanted to talk about at some point, which is, how did Heathcliff possibly inherit Wuthering Heights?

So if he is legitimately related to Earnshaw, that would make sense.

So he got Wuthering Heights because Henley, the legitimate son, the firstborn, gambled it to him.

Got it.

He gambled up to him.

He actually also, Heathcliff ended up with Thrushcross Green through the Linton Estate, mostly through he made his son, which is Isabella and his son.

He made his son marry Kathy 2.

Kathy 2 was set to inherit Thrushkrush Grange, the Linton Estate.

And so, because obviously, back then, anytime women had property, the second they got married, it belonged to their husbands.

And so her property then becomes their husbands.

And then his son dies.

He inherits everything from his son.

And so technically, by the end of the book, he owns Wuthering Heights and Thrush Cross Cranes, which is the Linton estate as well.

But more importantly than that, I want to speak to, like, the weird ancestral love, the merging of two halves.

So apparently, like, this is like, a scholarly theory that, like, a lot of.

Not like, Gothic novels, but novels at the time were doing kind of like a little bit of an incest moment in literature and English literature, allegedly.

But one scholar, Margaret Lenta, said that during this time, ancestral love was seen to be a merging of two halves of a soul to make a whole.

Lent argued that in separating herself from Heathcliff by marrying Linton, Catherine made an irreversible mistake.

The word of both lovers, she writes, makes it clear that she wanted us to regard them, once they are permanently divided, as fatally incomplete.

Lent's view, neither Kathy nor Heathcliff is able to quite literally live without the other one.

Like, it's also cool because, like, I think Terry Eagleton in his LA Review said, they're kind of frozen in some timeless mythological sphere, locked in a sexless infantile symbiosis which could never have matured into an adult relationship, healthily, at least.

So it's kind of like that almost like.

Like Heathcliff.

You know, we talked about Heathcliff being a whip for Kathy, and in some ways, it's almost like his fervent and greedy love for Kathy Heathcliffs is like a kid with a toy that he's jealous of and doesn't want to share.

So it's kind of like.

That's a really interesting kind of dynamic there in between the two of those.

Those two characters is that, like, in some senses, like, she's also.

She's extremely jealous of Heathcliff, especially once he comes back and starts kind of flirting with Isabella.

That's.

He's doing it just to fuck with her.

Like, he's like, I want to mess you up, and this couldn't hurt your feelings, so I will.

Yeah.

Because I resent you for not picking me.

Yep.

It's messy.

They're messy.

I think it's kind of fun.

I'm like, you guys are messy.

They're so codependent in ways that I feel like a lot of fiction is afraid to do.

Yeah.

Like, a lot of fiction flinches, like, it doesn't want the characters to be completely unsympathetic.

Emily Bronte was not worried about that.

No, Emily Bronte was not worried about being on something.

She's like, heathcliff, at one point, he strangles Isabella's dog.

Like, I think at one point, like, there were, like.

I think this is in the book, but there were, like, eggs of a bunch of baby birds.

And he's, like, jealous that Kathy spent time with the Lintons, not him, and so he smashed them all.

And then he, like, goes up to her, and he's like, I was gonna show you these baby birds, but then you spent time with the Lintons.

So I smash these little baby bird eggs.

Stop whining.

Yeah.

You're like, dude, you're kind of crazy for that.

And Kathy's just like, whoa, okay.

But also, like, she gives as good as she gets.

Like, don't make any mistake.

Any.

Any version of Kathy in any adaptation I've ever seen has.

Has this tendency to make her very, like, whimpering.

And I'm like, kathy's a bitch.

I'm sorry.

This woman's diabolical.

She's literally, like, on her deathbed in the scene where she's, like, dying, she's like, you're gonna forget me, and you're gonna get married and have kids.

Then in 20 years, when you die, you're gonna be like, oh, I loved Kathy once, and then she died, and, like, I don't remember her, and I'm gonna miss my kids more than I ever loved her.

And she's like, but I'm so suffering, and I'm miserable, and I'm dying, and it's your fault.

You did this to me.

You killed me.

And, like, literally, Heathcote is like, what the is wrong with you?

Like, that's, like, literally the worst thing she could ever say to him in that moment.

She's literally dying, and she's like, what's the most emotional pain I can inflict on everyone in this room right now?

And she did it.

And she did.

She did that.

I kind of love her for it.

I'm kind of like, you know, he.

Said, haunt me then.

And she said, you'll hear my words.

She's like, my words all the time.

Yeah.

That's iconic.

What do you think the percentages of people who pick up this book today thinking it's something else and discovering it's.

I would say.

I would say close to 100%.

Close to 100%.

Right.

I think especially if you read Jane before, you would go in, every.

Every single assumption would be, oh, it's.

It's a romance.

Yeah.

Or if you watch the most recent adaptation, I think that would give you that idea too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My last question on this thought.

Do you have to be well read to appreciate this book, or do you think you could just pick up this book tomorrow and after reading, whatever.

And no disrespect, I mean, but do you have to have a backlog of literature?

That's an interesting question.

I don't think.

I think understanding the context of the society that they're in is some historical context is helpful, because a lot of the choices they make don't necessarily make sense to us with a modern lens, and that's a huge kind of barrier of access for classics is you have to understand it's functioning within a time period, and it's political commentary almost always about things that were functioning at that time.

So that's kind of like.

Like, one facet of reading a classic.

But at the same time, like, I picked up the book and, like, the root and the most joyful piece of this novel for me is like, the.

The beautiful dialogue.

Like, that's what stands out.

And I think that 100% stands the test of time.

Like, I'm kind of like, you kind of to muddle through the.

The double narrative of Lockwood's version of the story as told by Nelly's version of the story, which is its own kind of thing.

It's like, is Nelly being honest in the framing of that?

But, you know, overall, I think it's.

I don't know.

I think it's accessible enough.

I think that many books are going to be improved by having more context, by having read more things.

Like, a lot of Wuthering Heights is a response to Milton.

I have not read Milton.

I did okay with Wuthering Heights.

But part of the thing that you need to remember is that just anyone was picking these books up when they were published.

They are not meant to be difficult and inaccessible.

It takes, like, a little bit of an adjustment period, I know, for myself to read a classic because the style of writing is very different.

But I think that if you are insane in any of the right ways, you can read Wuthering Heights and it can be your first book.

You'll be like, the weirdest talking middle schooler in the world, but you can do it.

Yeah, I really.

That's my favorite part.

I do work at a middle school, and, like, my students have been picking it up and, like, also, I am talking about it a lot.

That's a teacher there, right?

But I get a little kind of, like, excited.

I'm like, oh, my God, you guys are reading Wuthering Heights so you can talk about it.

You're like, literally, come talk to me anytime.

No, I literally make them like, check it out.

I'm like, please, please read it.

I have to talk about it.

Like, I have so many feelings, guys.

All right, well, we still have to talk about the movie, so we'll take a quick little break, right?

We'll come back and talk about Jacob Elordi and his earring.

His hoop earring.

Wow.

Don't get me started.

What a time.

The hoop earring.

Don't get me started on the hoop earring.

The size.

Oh, my God.

I'm looking at my show notes here for my Google Docs that I shared with my Esteemed colleagues here.

And under film adaptation, you have three notes.

A, B, you know, and then C. Is your mom.

Lol.

So my mom's very nice.

She's pretty funny.

Rachel.

It wasn't me, Hachel.

Yeah.

We gotta specify the Rachel in this situation.

Yeah, definitely.

Anytime anyone's speculated something immature and stupid, know that it's me.

It's the Rachel with the punch card for film adaptations of Wuthering Heights.

Right.

That's something to brag about.

She gets a free movie next time.

She gets to make the next one.

Actually, I want to make the next one.

Yeah.

One free adaptation.

I already know.

Home casting is Heathcliff Death Patel.

Okay.

That's a really obvious.

I mean, he's just a green knight.

I'm like, also anyway.

Fuming.

Look in his eyes.

That man was meant to be.

He can smolder.

He can.

He can sm.

He's.

He has layers.

Got floppy hair.

Cuz.

The problem with Heathcliff is that you have to have someone who's believably 18 and 45.

Like, that's a tough range.

And Dev Patel has it in the bag.

He has it.

He also knows how to strip a fish down to its skeleton in one go.

So it's important to play the role.

That's very important.

And we can bring that in.

Yeah, we'll find a way.

Yeah.

He's got a skill.

Rachel's actually working on it right now.

Yeah.

Don't worry, guys.

I'm in talks with the producers.

I'm really.

I run in those circles.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, she's in Hollywood all the time.

Yes, yes, yes.

You ditched us.

I didn't.

I really.

I.

You know, I don't know.

I got.

No, no excuses.

I saw it the other day.

I weathered the heights finally.

And I enjoyed it.

I thought it was pretty good.

More importantly, what did your wife think of it?

We do want to know what she thought.

Yeah.

Where's Stacy?

Got to call her now.

She watched it with me.

You know, it was an experience.

I'll leave it at that.

It is quite the experience of a.

Movie as a lesbian.

I was so scared.

Can we.

Yeah.

You kept saying, I'm so scared for this race.

Can we actually talk for a moment about the actual adaptation from.

From the work to the movie and what they left out?

Oh, I love this question.

So they did leave out the entire second half of the book.

Yes.

But I will say that everyone's like, oh, they left out the second half of the book.

Well, most adaptations do.

I feel like I've seen seven, and I think it's like at least three or four of them.

Over half leave out the second half.

That's so interesting because I feel like the second half is what makes obviously, Catherine and Heathcliff together are insane.

But I feel like the second half gives it so much more oomph.

Yeah.

It's what makes it a generational trauma.

Yeah.

Instead of just like, you know, it's just like a couple instead of just being around.

Exactly.

Then it's just like, oh, this is gonna go on for a while.

This is gonna damage so many generations.

I'm the regular jabroni.

And that second half of the book was where I was like, well, what happened to everything I was promised?

And it's just gone?

And then the movie is kind of like, okay, this is what I thought the book was going to be.

So you liked the insanity of the relationship between Catherine and Heathcliff?

Yeah, that's kind of what I signed up for.

And when they move on to the little child who's always sick and sniveling.

Linton.

Linton, Linton.

Heathcliff, whiny little Linton.

We all fucking hate him.

That's the other thing, too, is that Heathcliff hates his son Linton.

He does not have any sort of familial love that.

He's valid for that.

Actually, Linton sucks.

He's really, like, whiny and he's so.

He's got an autoimmune disorder.

He probably has Lyme disease.

Like, he's just, like, simpering little fool.

Lyme disease did not exist at this time.

We don't know that.

Yes, we do.

There's no.

Anybody would know.

Rachel would know.

You know what?

We didn't think it existed until the 70s, but they did just find that Otzi the Iceman did have Lyme disease.

Probably.

It should be noted that Rachel's bunny is named after Otzi.

I like mummies.

Have you read a book about deer ticks?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

There's no way she hasn't.

I mean, I've read a book about Lyme disease, which is heavily.

They're a major player in the book.

I don't think I've read a micro history of deer ticks specifically.

She's gonna look for one now, though.

If it exists, I will read it.

Yes.

All right.

And I'll say fuck these guys every single time.

Speaking of deer ticks, Jacob Elordi shows.

Up, halfway perfect transition, shows up Halfway.

Through the film with a hoop earring.

And I quite like to see it.

Yeah.

And how did that happen?

Oh, you liked it?

Oh, I love the hoop earring.

He looks like a pirate.

I would love to know.

Sorry, just an aside.

I would love to know how any piercings worked for the advent of cleaning things of like, oh, if you got.

An infection, you just died about it.

He probably did get a.

You know, jewelry's worth it with some rum.

They cleaned it with rum or something.

Some grog.

They didn't have germ theory at that point.

Grog.

So they didn't even think about it.

They're just punching holes through years and.

You get, you know, a little pussy.

And that's good.

It's good to be pussy.

I'm currently reading a history of Bellevue the hospital, and we've just discovered germ theory.

They were a little ahead of that in Europe.

FYI, grog is not high enough ABV to.

To clean anything.

You need full strength room for that.

Thank you for.

Thank you.

Can we get a definition on grog for a second?

Because I'm not sure we're out of my wheelhouse.

My recollection is it is a watered down combination of rum or brewed things at a lower concentration that reduces bacteria to the point where it will hydrate you somewhat to a point, but it is lower so it can be consumed all the time.

Gotcha, gotcha.

Instead of full strength rum or like navy strength or those things that are, you know, very strong.

That's very.

Grog is weak.

And often we'd be fortified with citrus or other things to prevent our scurvy and things like that.

All right.

If we ever do a pirate book, we're drinking grog.

Yes.

All right.

I legitimately always thought grog had, like, oatmeal in it.

So that is very good.

Oh, meal.

That's gruel.

Thank you.

Okay.

It's hard to clarify.

It's hard to clarify.

Gruel.

Yeah, gruel.

Watery.

Can I speak?

No.

Yeah, watery.

Oatmeal.

Okay.

Where were we?

Where were we?

I want to talk about the poster.

Go for it.

The poster is old school.

Talk itself about the poster itself, first of all.

First.

It's gorgeous.

Yeah.

Can you describe it?

But it's Jake Bilardi staring down into Margot Robbie's face as she's, like, tilting her head up.

It very like, reminiscent of Gone with the Wind.

And the title is, like, in these massive bold letters and it says Wuthering Heights in quotation marks.

Because famously this movie is the director Emerald Funnel's interpretation of what her 14 year old self thought the book was.

So that's kind of like gives you some context of like this is what horny little 14 year old Admiral Funnel was thinking about when she read the book.

But more importantly, I want to talk about this.

I just read this article today, kind of talked about.

It's from Shauna Lipton.

I don't remember what sore spot.

It was kind of that idea of like the clinch, which is like this pose that they did on bodice rippers and on like dramas of the time, like, and it's a woman's head being thrown back and he's gazing down at her upturned mouth.

This pose, which is known as a clinch, is promotional and a genre skill.

And it's I often enough you find it on mass market romances, on Bottleshipers, Harlequin Romance.

And it promises readers explicit passion, historical spectacle and a very specific fantasy of male dominance and female surrender.

Which is a really kind of interesting thing to kind of cement this 19th century Gothic literature masterpiece in the context of like a commercial bodice ripper, which is basically what it is.

Did they, did they reproduce the.

Put the book back out with that cover?

Because that is just.

They haven't.

But if they did, I would buy it.

Yeah.

Hell yeah.

That's a collector's item.

Go ahead.

I was gonna say it's really interesting that the male dominance, female submission is an inherent part of that like implication when that's so much like the conversation of power is so much of Wuthering Heights.

It is not about female submission and it's so fast.

It's like about female dominance and if anything like male submission, like, like very much like the dynamic in Kathy and Heathcliff, especially in part one, is very much.

She.

He's very submissive to her and she's very dominant.

And in the second half of the story when he comes back after he's been gone for a while and she's married, like those kind of.

There's this power struggle between the two of them.

But it's like very, very interesting.

Yeah.

That they kind of frame the.

And she's at no point naturally submissive.

She is forced into obviously the subordinate role because she is a woman in.

I mean, not to misrepresent Kathy, she loves Edgar.

She does love Edgar.

She does love her husband.

She's in a very loving marriage for the first like couple years that they're together.

It's just that her situation with Heathcliff is something that's entirely, like, beyond comprehension to even her.

I think at times it goes beyond her what she.

What he means to her and what she is to him.

So it's like a very fascinating kind of juxtaposition.

But, like, even with Edgar, like, the second that Heathcliff comes back, she's like, well, you're not a man.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Which in the movie, they show that.

And it's a very, very explicit way.

So the movie itself.

Let's talk a little bit about, like, what.

What they did in this movie.

Once again, as you said, it's kind of animal funnels idea what the book was, which is not, let's say, accurate.

We have to ask the question, like, Fever Dream version, like, what is the point of adaptation?

Yeah.

Is it to make something that's accurate, or is it to make something that's, like, interesting?

That's a debate.

I think you can have both.

Yeah.

Both.

I'm like, you can do two things.

I myself, like, when I watch an adaptation like Jane Austen, heads will know.

I feel like most people.

Most people who have brains do, because that's the right choice.

But it's like, well, that takes artistic license, you know, with the story and arguably, quote, unquote, the.

But then you're like, well, then why am I more drawn to a story that's not as faithful?

But it's like, okay, but it's better.

Yeah.

Because film is a different medium than books.

Well.

And it's a different product.

Yeah, absolutely.

So a movie is, in and of itself, itself a complete thing.

It's drawing inspiration from the book.

Yeah.

And I think there's a difference between the fans interpreting something and just everybody else.

I mean, it's really fun because I think if I were to try to, like, take away the Wuthering heights of it all and just watch this movie as a movie and not think about it being my book, I'm like, it's great.

I love it.

I have to say, I had a lot of fun.

I'm like, you know what?

Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi acted their little hearts out.

Yeah.

Charli XCX's soundtrack was gorgeous.

It was so much the cinematography.

Every single shot of that movie is stunning.

Visually.

Sonically, it's pleasing to watch.

I was doing so interesting.

I was so tired when we Put it on.

Like, I'm.

I don't know if I'm gonna make it through this.

Like, you know how it is.

You have that feeling.

You're like, oh, I put my head on the pillow.

I'm gonna pass out.

I did not, though, because it.

The soundtrack really, really grabs you.

And the visuals, they really bring it to life.

We didn't really talk about the climate and the environment in the book.

The pages itself, it is a character.

It is gross and desolate.

It's the moors, and it's wet and gross and sad and foggy and icky and disgusting.

And it's like very like.

Like the environment is so deeply, like, suffocating in a way which, you know, us people from Rochester, as I said, we understand.

We're gonna understand that.

Like, I see myself in that.

If anything, Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights made me appreciate March.

Never thought I'd say that, but every time it's March now, I'm like.

It's like I'm in a gothic romance novel.

Oh, I like that.

I'm going to try to flip my mindset around.

Yeah.

Kind of change your view a little bit.

And eerie.

I'm like, in a Bronte book right now.

Oh, my goodness.

My face is chapped and I like it.

But Heathcliff in the distance.

Muddy, swarthy now.

Yeah.

Just a brief note.

So for people that don't know anything about Emerald Fennel also directed two movies before this that both of them are stylish, often either misunderstood or, like, purposefully misunderstood as movies.

Which was Promising Young Woman, which I love.

That movie's so good.

Just an amazing turn.

And I didn't see Saltburn, but that's another one that is really stylish, but also, like, controversial in spots.

And it seems like that's kind of her lane.

Yeah.

She's British.

Yes.

Okay.

She's British.

She's posh.

You grew up wealthy.

What I kind of resent about this is that in.

In the movie Saltburn, not that I've seen it, but allegedly in the movie, one of the characters maybe has sex with a grave.

Maybe he does that in Saltburn.

And that's at the end of the movie, and it's very interesting.

He didn't do that in Weathering.

And literally it's in the book.

I'm like.

So he literally.

He, like, like, commits acts of necrophilia in the book.

And I'm like, you had a golden opportunity there.

Come on, Emerald.

And you didn't take.

She's like.

And actually I'm not gonna do it.

I'm so mad about it.

Like, I'm like, I've already done it.

I really wanted to watch Jacob Elordi do that in a way that's normal.

I want to hear the song that would have gone along with it.

I want to watch this movie with your character.

You are not normal about Jacob Elordi.

See, here's the thing, is that I'm not like a big Jacob Elordi girl, but the second that man was on screen as Heathcliff, I was like, no, wait a minute.

Part 3X.

Here I'm seeing a whole new.

You're like, let me look at that earring.

He got that little earring.

No, before.

He looks like Jesus.

So part one, he looks like Jesus.

And you're like, well, we don't have time to unpack what that means.

Right?

But then in part two, he shows up with his little haircut, his little earring.

You're like, I feel like a pirate.

He does a Captain Morgan stance upon arrival to be like, I've got my.

I was 17ft tall.

It's horrible.

He looks so goofy in his, like, update.

I was just like, I thought, I'm fine.

I was like a goofy man.

This is how I know I'm a woman.

He should grow that beard back because I don't need to know what that.

Face looks like under there.

Well, he also kind of looks like a cross between Pedro Pascal and Oscar Isaac as, like, a person, except for way, way, way taller.

He's big.

He's a big man.

I feel like his chin is just so delicate and elephant.

I know he does feel like he would be really good in, like, a Lord of the Rings.

He'd be a great elf.

I really liked him in Frankenstein.

That's a move.

Crazy.

So good in Frankenstein.

He was incredible.

He was very good in that.

So, yeah, basically, the adaptation, it's extremely.

Well, let's just say it's not a faithful one.

No, I will say, though captivating throughout, it's bombastic.

And I also think what you were talking about earlier with the setting being a character in and of itself, the set dressing gorgeous and the actual, like,.

It looks like a music video are insane.

Can we for a moment talk about the fact that Catherine's room.

The wall.

The flesh Room.

The Flesh Room, the Flesh Room, the Flesh Room.

Wild.

The wall where he's licking the wall off of her.

That was one of the places I.

Was weird and freaky.

I was like, I'm scared.

Freaks.

Perfect timing.

I leaned over to Robin.

And I went, I'm scared.

Yes.

For some context, Margot Robbie's character, Kathy, like, goes.

She marries Edgar.

She.

His house is very opulent in, like, weird, fun ways.

They have like this hand wall in the living room.

Like, it's kind of weird.

Like, it's very like, art housey.

You know, like annoying, pretentious rich people vibes.

And so basically he shows her.

He's like.

And from my wife's room, I had to pick the best color, the color of her beautiful face.

And you walk in and it's like the color of Margot Robbie's flesh, like, matched exactly.

There's a mole in the wall.

There's a mole.

There's veins in it.

It's like, gross.

It looks like leather.

Disgusting.

It's so gross.

And it's like plush.

She, like, sits herself against it and you're like, she looks like a little doll.

And that's the kind of other, like, motif in this is her sister in law, Isabella, has this, like, creepy dollhouse that she's obsessed with.

It's all sounding very Texas Chainsaw.

Massive.

No, it's more.

It's more Hellraiser than Texas Chainsaw.

Okay.

It's so creepy.

And literally, like, the day after they get married, Isabella approaches Kathryn.

She's like, I have a gift for you.

Can I show you?

And Kathy's like, yeah.

And Isabella's like, here.

It's this creepy, tiny little doll.

And it's like she took the hair from Catherine's hairbrush, like her actual hair, and, like, put it on the doll and it looks so disturbing.

She's like, we're gonna put it right next to me.

And it's a model of the house they live in.

And she opens it, she's like, there you are with me.

And then later on, once Isabella's jealous of Kathy, she, like, mutilates the doll violently.

And you're like, what the hell?

It should be noted that these people are grown ups.

They're all adults.

Adults.

Yeah.

The side characters are bonkers in this, I'd say.

Yeah.

And this was.

I really, like.

That's where I start to question some of the choices that Emerald Fennell made.

Because I was the.

The character of Hindley, Catherine's abusive brother to Heathcliff.

Like, that's a very important part of the narrative of the book.

Mostly because Mr. Ernst's, like, benevolent and loving.

And so when he dies, Henley gets the estate, which is why things change for Heathcliff and a part of why Kathy wants to marry Edgar, because she wants to help Heathcliff rise from his station.

Right.

That's like, what she says in motivation for her when she accepts his proposal.

But in this version, they get rid of Hindley and they merge him with Mr. Earnshaw, and he becomes this disgusting, like, aggrieved man who's just horrible and, like, so gross.

Like, so.

His fingernails are nasty, guys.

So foul.

He's the grossest guy I've seen on screen since.

What was with Dennis Quaid in the movie last Year with Margaret Quiley.

The substance.

Oh, the substance, Yes.

A fine film.

Good for all ages.

Good for all ages.

He grossed me out as much as.

Yes.

So he's pretty.

He's pretty icky.

But they merge those two characters.

The other thing that I seriously, I'm like, why'd we even do this?

So for Edgar's character, they made Isabella his ward, not his sister.

And I just.

You barely catch it because they say, oh, if that's his word.

And I'm like, why.

Why are you.

Are they trying to get rid of the overt incest?

I think it's because Isabella's character, she's played by an actress who is white, and Edgar's character is played by an actor who's Pakistani.

And they don't want to create confusion casting, but I was like, just do colorblind casting.

Like, there's no reason to make her.

Like that.

Just made it weird.

I think it's also, like.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's.

There's the whole, like, race inverse thing here, which we have to talk about the casting choices, because Catherine, she dies and she's 19.

In the book of childbirth, Margot Robbie.

And I love Margot Robbie more than anyone in this world.

She's beautiful.

She's my Barbie.

I love.

She looks like she's in her 30s.

She's in her 30s.

She looks like she's in her 30s.

Or maybe late 20s.

I'd say late 20s, sure.

Yeah.

But not 19.

No, no.

That's not believable.

And she plays 18 for a long.

Time for a huge chunk of the movie.

And it wasn't.

She's a producer on the film.

Yes, she is a producer on the film.

So it's like, okay, girl.

That maybe wasn't the right.

And like.

Like, Kathy, like, I was talking about this with my friends.

Like, she's very, like.

Like, waifish.

Almost, like, you know, very, like, sickly.

Like it's giving tuberculosis kind of vibes.

And unfortunately, like, she just didn't quite have it.

And then more importantly, the Jacob Elordi casting, like Heathcliff.

There's the whole debate with whether or not he's a person of color.

And kind of recognizing what like, this kind of, like, racialization does to him and what it does to his station and inverting that and making Edgar, but then doing absolutely nothing with Edgar being a person of color anyway, you're like, well, I mean, the movie really kind of hones in on one singular, minuscule part of the story, which is the obsessive dynamic between Heathcliff and Kathy.

That's the whole point of the movie.

So a lot of the nuance, the storytelling, the fascinating nature of Is love good?

Or.