Artwork for podcast Happy Mama Movement with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz
#221 – Perceptive Parenting with Elena Brower
Episode 22130th November 2022 • Happy Mama Movement with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz • Amy Taylor-Kabbaz
00:00:00 00:41:43

Share Episode

Shownotes

Our children are a vital source of creativity and future vision. And a big part of our parenting involves reconnecting to yourself so you can connect to them differently, and be the parent you've always dreamed of being. Today's guest is by far one of the most inspiring women I have the privilege of knowing. She is a mother, humanitarian, artist, teacher, bestselling author and host of the Practice You Podcast. This conversation is potent and powerful and encourages us to listen to our own wisdom within. Join Amy and Elena as they talk about:

  • Being at the mercy of emotion and how to trust that we're learning all the time and very much a human work in progress.
  • Tenderness for our anger and sitting practices which help us to notice the meanderings of our mind.
  • The simplicity of bringing it back and realising others are having an experience of their own. We have a choice.
  • The role of parenting and important question of how are we sending this human being into the world?

There is no doubt you will come away from this episode inspired. Please have a look at the Perceptive Parenting audio course and join me there. It is a source for positive parenting tips for kids of all ages and really is like a village.

You can find out more at https://elenabrower.com/parenting/ and follow Elena on Instagram at @elenabrower.

Within these conversations we change the way mothers are valued and seen in our society and spread the whispers of Matrescence together.

Find out more and receive your Matrescence map here https://www.amytaylorkabbaz.com/matrescence/

Transcripts

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome to the Happy Mama Movement Podcast.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the Aura nation

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

on which this podcast is recorded, as the traditional custodians of this land.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And, as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom, their

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

knowing and my own elders and teachers.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Welcome back Mamas.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Today's guest is by far one of the most inspiring teachers and women

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I have had the privilege to know.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Elena Brower is a world renowned yoga teacher on Yoga Glow.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

She is an authour, a leader in doTERRA essential oils, and for someone who

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

has such an enormous global community, is one of the most personably

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

accessible women I have ever met.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

No matter what, you reach out to Elena and she will personally

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

respond and support you.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Something that I think in this day and age is rare.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

When I saw Elena was going to release a program around parenting,

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

I immediately contacted her.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And if you don't know her work or have never had any experience

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

with her, you will understand why when you listen to this interview.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Her wisdom, her steadiness, her words, her passion to be able to gather with

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

her and other like-minded mothers and parents from around the world and look

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

at what it means to be able to raise good humans will be an incredible experience.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

If you would like to know more about Perceptive Parenting her

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

Parenting Program, all of the details are in my show notes.

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

And please for now, just enjoy this interview, this conversation,

Amy Taylor-Kabbaz:

and then jump on and have a look at Perceptive Parenting.

-:

00:02:23

Elena, what an honour it is to be

-:

00:02:27

speaking with you today on the podcast, and so many of my mamas in my community

-:

00:02:33

are waiting with bated breath, as they say for this conversation.

-:

00:02:38

I have known you, followed you and listened to your wisdom for many,

-:

00:02:45

many years in many different spaces, yoga, essential oils, uh, so much.

-:

00:02:53

And I am so excited to know that you are now stepping into a space where we can

-:

00:02:59

learn together, grow together as parents.

-:

00:03:02

So why this?

-:

00:03:05

Now?

-:

00:03:06

Where did this come from?

-:

00:03:08

So I've been working on this for 10 years.

-:

00:03:11

I do dare say, I think it's the one parenting course I will ever launch.

-:

00:03:17

And the content is from, I started writing it when Jonah was about six or seven.

-:

00:03:24

Now he's 16.

-:

00:03:27

Um, and beautiful and such a good person.

-:

00:03:31

And I feel equipped to share what has gone well.

-:

00:03:37

Uh, to share my results, really.

-:

00:03:40

To share my missteps and, uh, really to welcome other people into a

-:

00:03:48

conversation that I've been having for a long time, but didn't yet feel

-:

00:03:52

equipped to have it, uh, in public because I wasn't sure if it was working.

-:

00:03:59

And now it seems to be working.

-:

00:04:02

That's a really powerful thing to say.

-:

00:04:04

I think so often in this day and age, we do jump in and share

-:

00:04:08

our processes along the way.

-:

00:04:11

And to honour the timing of this and wait.

-:

00:04:16

Cause parenting is experimenting, right?

-:

00:04:18

We, we don't know what is working until we're at the other side sometimes.

-:

00:04:23

That's right.

-:

00:04:24

That's right.

-:

00:04:26

This particular offering is going to be something that's always available.

-:

00:04:31

Uh, it's called Perceptive Parenting, and the subtitle is Timeless

-:

00:04:34

Wisdom for Raising Great Humans.

-:

00:04:38

And my plan is to jump in with anyone who's in the course once a quarter

-:

00:04:45

and have, uh, a live gathering.

-:

00:04:49

Where we can meet and ask questions and share observations, share insights.

-:

00:04:56

Um, I don't feel like it needs to be something that's open all

-:

00:04:59

the time or something that needs to be more frequent than that.

-:

00:05:04

But I do think every third month to, to check in feels

-:

00:05:08

really appropriate and true.

-:

00:05:13

So my work and the conversations in

-:

00:05:15

this podcast is always about parenting.

-:

00:05:19

But through the lens of how this changes us as human beings, as women.

-:

00:05:26

How we are moving through a rite of passage ourselves as we

-:

00:05:32

support our children to raise, to grow into great humans.

-:

00:05:37

So looking back at the last 16 years and how you first stepped into

-:

00:05:42

motherhood, what do you see now?

-:

00:05:47

About the beginnings of that experience.

-:

00:05:53

Hmm.

-:

00:05:53

Thank you for that very potent question.

-:

00:05:58

I was 36 when I had Jonah.

-:

00:06:02

I had been around the block a few times.

-:

00:06:05

I sort of I had begun to know myself.

-:

00:06:08

I was still addicted.

-:

00:06:10

Um, I was still having trouble with my temper.

-:

00:06:14

I was still at the mercy of emotion.

-:

00:06:19

Which I don't feel so much at the mercy of emotion anymore.

-:

00:06:25

Um, I didn't have a, a really solid meditation practice yet.

-:

00:06:29

I've developed that over the course of his life.

-:

00:06:33

And I think between then and now, what I've come to understand is

-:

00:06:36

this whole, as you said, so aptly.

-:

00:06:40

This whole enterprise is an opportunity for us to get closer to ourselves.

-:

00:06:47

To see what it is that we prioritise.

-:

00:06:49

To stop feeling like everything is beyond us and in control of

-:

00:06:55

us, and start actually taking the reins of our lives ourselves.

-:

00:07:02

To realise that these children desperately need direction, boundary,

-:

00:07:08

clarity, routine, ritual even.

-:

00:07:13

And to trust that we're learning all the time as well as they are.

-:

00:07:18

And that we are, uh, a work in progress, human work in progress.

-:

00:07:26

To be at the mercy of our emotions.

-:

00:07:29

Ugh, that landed when you said that.

-:

00:07:32

That's such a powerful way to describe what so many women talk

-:

00:07:38

to me about on a daily basis.

-:

00:07:41

It's this being pushed and pulled by these emotions, these inner stories

-:

00:07:46

that says, I'm doing a bad job.

-:

00:07:49

What if this isn't right?

-:

00:07:51

What if I can't change this?

-:

00:07:52

All of these internal and external factors.

-:

00:07:58

So if that's where a mama is right now listening to this, how did you, and

-:

00:08:03

how would you speak to her about how do we begin to become more aware of

-:

00:08:09

this and not be at the mercy of it?

-:

00:08:14

So if you are listening to this

-:

00:08:17

and you are feeling swept about by the events of your day.

-:

00:08:26

By the emotionality in your belly.

-:

00:08:29

I think the first thing I would do, and the first thing I did do really was start

-:

00:08:32

to develop a five minute sitting routine.

-:

00:08:36

Where I would just sit down five minutes on my timer, watching

-:

00:08:41

my breath, inhale and exhale.

-:

00:08:44

Inhale.

-:

00:08:45

I would gather all of my attention in.

-:

00:08:47

And exhale let all of that which I've gathered, settle in my body five minutes.

-:

00:08:53

Usually after three or four breaths consecutively, I've lost count, I've

-:

00:08:58

lost track, I'm in some other place.

-:

00:09:02

To practice the observation of when I get lost and how I come back and

-:

00:09:09

to notice how every time I come back something in my brain, something in my

-:

00:09:14

consciousness actually gets brighter.

-:

00:09:17

Rather than punish myself for losing track, coming back.

-:

00:09:21

Brightens my mind is what I've noticed.

-:

00:09:27

I would recommend tenderly that you sit with yourself for these

-:

00:09:32

five minutes and start to notice the, the meanderings of your mind.

-:

00:09:38

Cool, Five minutes fine.

-:

00:09:41

Then you get into a situation with another human.

-:

00:09:45

And you see how exactly your mind has the same kind of propensity

-:

00:09:53

when you're in a situation as much as it has when you're sitting.

-:

00:09:58

And then you've started to develop a practice of bringing your

-:

00:10:02

attention back to your breathing.

-:

00:10:05

I'm gathering my attention in, I am letting it settle.

-:

00:10:09

There is nothing, literally nothing that you cannot handle.

-:

00:10:14

Not a death, not an accident, not a trauma, uh, not a case of abuse.

-:

00:10:22

There's nothing you cannot handle.

-:

00:10:24

Now, I'm 52.

-:

00:10:25

I have seen a lot of triumphant tragedy into triumphant women.

-:

00:10:33

Who have taken the reigns of their own life.

-:

00:10:36

Who have learned how their brains work, how their emotions work.

-:

00:10:40

Who have seen the waves being caught by the wave and then coming

-:

00:10:43

back and changing literally their entire demeanour and, and behaviour

-:

00:10:53

in the direction of more dignity.

-:

00:10:55

More clarity, more coherence, more joy.

-:

00:11:02

There's nothing we can't do.

-:

00:11:05

It actually makes me emotional

-:

00:11:08

hearing you speak like that.

-:

00:11:10

Because I know it to be the truth with a capital T.

-:

00:11:16

And yet even after practicing this myself for 10 years, I forget sometimes.

-:

00:11:25

And then you hear it and it's so damn simple.

-:

00:11:29

It's so damn simple.

-:

00:11:31

That's the emotions.

-:

00:11:32

It's like, yes, that's all it is.

-:

00:11:35

That's all it is.

-:

00:11:37

And then there's a point at which

-:

00:11:41

we're going to make the mistake of getting involved and feeling like

-:

00:11:45

we can't, we can't handle something.

-:

00:11:48

And at that point I have a couple of really good teachers

-:

00:11:51

who have taught me this.

-:

00:11:53

I put a hand on my heart and you don't have to do that.

-:

00:11:56

And I just remind myself of how human I am.

-:

00:11:58

I am so human.

-:

00:11:59

How human of me to feel this way right now.

-:

00:12:03

That level of empathy, that practice of empathy then becomes

-:

00:12:08

available on other people.

-:

00:12:13

I can suddenly feel it for the person who is giving me an

-:

00:12:15

absolute massive, um, issue.

-:

00:12:21

And what I realise is they're not giving me anything.

-:

00:12:26

They're having an experience all of their own.

-:

00:12:29

I am bringing to the situation what I'm bringing.

-:

00:12:32

And this part, what I'm bringing, that's my choice.

-:

00:12:37

So I better choose well.

-:

00:12:39

If I choose reactivity, I'm going to cause more drama.

-:

00:12:43

If I choose responsiveness or even sometimes silence, just

-:

00:12:48

presence, just listening.

-:

00:12:53

I decrease, dissolve, dissipate the drama.

-:

00:13:00

And I get every, everything moving on a, on a, on a good path.

-:

00:13:06

I've had the great privilege of

-:

00:13:08

having a number of conversations with you over the years.

-:

00:13:11

And I remember once you and I were speaking, and I'll never forget this,

-:

00:13:15

you said, I said something about myself.

-:

00:13:18

I, I don't even remember what it was.

-:

00:13:20

Perhaps something like, Oh, I'm terrible at that, or I'm not very

-:

00:13:25

good at that, or something like that.

-:

00:13:27

And you immediately jumped in and said, don't talk about my friend like that.

-:

00:13:32

And it gives me goosebumps, just remembering.

-:

00:13:35

And it is, It was just one of those moments, Elena, where I was like, Ooh,

-:

00:13:40

wow, I've never heard it said like that.

-:

00:13:43

And it has stayed with me, and I use it now with my children and my friends

-:

00:13:47

don't talk about my friend like that.

-:

00:13:49

And it just reminded me again.

-:

00:13:52

That's right.

-:

00:13:52

Don't talk about my child like that.

-:

00:13:54

And it reminded me of it again, just then, the way that you put your

-:

00:13:57

hand on your heart, and it's the same almost saying that to yourself.

-:

00:14:01

Don't speak to yourself like you know, It's that protective almost.

-:

00:14:05

It's like a mother energy.

-:

00:14:06

It's very protective of our own self and our own humanness, isn't it?

-:

00:14:12

That's exactly right.

-:

00:14:14

And it is this simple.

-:

00:14:16

It is uh, a short sitting practice that will someday become longer.

-:

00:14:21

Someday it becomes a refuge.

-:

00:14:22

At one point it's spun, and I cannot wait to wake up and go sit.

-:

00:14:28

Cannot, even the night before, I'm just all excited.

-:

00:14:31

I'll fluff up my cushion.

-:

00:14:33

I'll get the little incense ready to go.

-:

00:14:36

I, I wish this on all of us, that we get to the point where sitting

-:

00:14:43

still becomes a total refuge.

-:

00:14:52

What about anger?

-:

00:14:54

Again, I remember, um, for those who haven't read my book,

-:

00:14:58

Mama Rising I interviewed you for some parts of the book.

-:

00:15:02

And I remember speaking to you at the time about your, uh, relationship, I

-:

00:15:07

guess with your temper and how you really reflected on the way you were raised.

-:

00:15:14

The way emotion was handled in your family and the healing

-:

00:15:18

journey you've been on with that.

-:

00:15:21

Again, over the last decade this has been such a common theme for so

-:

00:15:26

many of the women who are, are in our community, who are there because

-:

00:15:31

they want to do it differently than the way it was done to them.

-:

00:15:37

What is that process?

-:

00:15:40

So, I got very interested when

-:

00:15:43

Jonah was about three years old, so we're going back 13, 14 years.

-:

00:15:47

Um, I got very, very interested in why I was the one who was so apt to react

-:

00:15:56

bombastically and scream and slam doors.

-:

00:15:59

Like it was just so out of alignment with every other aspect of who I'd become.

-:

00:16:07

I got very interested in it and I started to study.

-:

00:16:10

I studied Father Richard Roars work and I studied the work

-:

00:16:15

of Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh.

-:

00:16:18

Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh has a book that is called Anger.

-:

00:16:22

He is also a book called Reconciliation.

-:

00:16:26

In both, I believe, but definitely in Anger, he talks about the importance

-:

00:16:34

of holding your anger tenderly.

-:

00:16:37

As though your anger were a child that you loved very much, and suddenly this child

-:

00:16:42

came to you with a big, big, big problem.

-:

00:16:46

And how do you hold that child with respect?

-:

00:16:51

How do you see that that child is just having this very natural, um,

-:

00:16:56

understandable, given the circumstances from which that child has emerged?

-:

00:17:02

Uh reaction.

-:

00:17:04

And the moment I started holding my anger more tenderly and treating it like a,

-:

00:17:08

um, not a gift, but like an important, valuable, valued, uh, visitor in my body.

-:

00:17:19

It started to change.

-:

00:17:21

Um, it started to become at times adorable.

-:

00:17:30

And I started to see where I was choosing this anger over other possible responses.

-:

00:17:40

And now I see it.

-:

00:17:42

I think I raised my voice for the first time in many months.

-:

00:17:45

I raised my voice and I, Jonah was just on his phone walking away

-:

00:17:49

while I was speaking and I said, Jonah, I'm still in charge here.

-:

00:17:55

I didn't, I didn't curse, I didn't yell at him.

-:

00:17:57

I didn't make him wrong.

-:

00:17:59

I thought for a moment about what the fact is.

-:

00:18:02

The fact is I'm actually still in charge and you owe me some respect.

-:

00:18:06

I give you respect in listening.

-:

00:18:07

I stand still when you're speaking with me.

-:

00:18:09

You do the same.

-:

00:18:11

It was instant.

-:

00:18:12

He turned around, he was like, I'm sorry, phone down on the counter.

-:

00:18:17

That's the extent of it now.

-:

00:18:18

It used to be a real serious issue.

-:

00:18:22

My parents were extraordinarily young when they had me.

-:

00:18:24

Neither one of them had the coping skills to manage what was

-:

00:18:28

thrown at them in their lives.

-:

00:18:30

With the two of us, I have a younger sister also.

-:

00:18:34

It was a lot for them.

-:

00:18:36

And I now really accept and honour their efforts, their trials, their uh, their

-:

00:18:46

affection, which trumped all things.

-:

00:18:49

You know, in the end thats kind of who I am.

-:

00:18:54

I'm not their temper, I'm not their fights.

-:

00:18:58

I am their affection personified, embodied, you know, all the love

-:

00:19:02

that they gave me when they were, when they were so young and I was so

-:

00:19:06

little and in my bed kind of wanting to go to bed with, with some help.

-:

00:19:10

You know, I'm that.

-:

00:19:14

And if you're watching this or listening and you're feeling like,

-:

00:19:17

Oh, you know, I didn't have that.

-:

00:19:19

So, I have no way out.

-:

00:19:21

I have no map.

-:

00:19:23

I have no template.

-:

00:19:26

You know, you do have choice though.

-:

00:19:30

You have choice as to how you send your child into their future

-:

00:19:34

relationship with their partner.

-:

00:19:37

And if you send them into their future relationship with a tenderness toward

-:

00:19:41

your own anger, with a respect for your own trials and and triumphs.

-:

00:19:49

With some pauses in the situations where you feel most triggered.

-:

00:19:56

Remembering how human you are and remembering how human is this other

-:

00:19:59

person who is in such a dilemma that this is what they're doing right now.

-:

00:20:04

If you can send your kid into the world, into their relationship

-:

00:20:07

with those tools, you have done the entire world a tremendous

-:

00:20:12

service, and that is your choice.

-:

00:20:18

Yeah.

-:

00:20:19

And that's the ultimate role really.

-:

00:20:21

When we think of parenting, that's what it is.

-:

00:20:23

How are we sending this human being into the world?

-:

00:20:28

In what state?

-:

00:20:29

In what state?

-:

00:20:30

Am I sending this human being

-:

00:20:31

into their first relationship?

-:

00:20:36

My kid is now, uh, in, in a relationship.

-:

00:20:38

It's very sweet.

-:

00:20:41

Sweet.

-:

00:20:41

And, uh, he's got all the things he needs.

-:

00:20:43

And the other day I noticed in his medicine chest that,

-:

00:20:46

um, he was missing face oil.

-:

00:20:50

He had some pania mask and some scrub, but I wanted him to have some face oil.

-:

00:20:55

And I, I made one for his young lady and I put it in there and I said, I

-:

00:21:01

hope you don't think this forward of me.

-:

00:21:03

Uh, Jonah, but I put in some face oil in case the time comes when she stays over

-:

00:21:08

or is here for a long period of time wishes to take a shower, wash her face.

-:

00:21:11

It's there in your cabinet.

-:

00:21:13

Really nice custom made.

-:

00:21:14

And he was like, Wow, thanks.

-:

00:21:23

You know, that kind of, that kind of move I think goes a long way in this world.

-:

00:21:31

Really think about that.

-:

00:21:34

Can we speak about

-:

00:21:35

relationships for a moment?

-:

00:21:36

Sure.

-:

00:21:37

Uh, you, I don't remember the age Jonah

-:

00:21:40

was when you separated from his dad.

-:

00:21:43

He was three and a half,

-:

00:21:45

Three and a half.

-:

00:21:47

And his dad actually just left here.

-:

00:21:49

He comes and visits once a month and stays with us for a week.

-:

00:21:54

That's what I would like to explore

-:

00:21:55

for a few moments as someone who has only recently gone through a separation

-:

00:22:00

and is still very much healing in that space for myself as well as

-:

00:22:06

monitoring, I guess checking in with the healing of my three children.

-:

00:22:10

And negotiating a new co-parenting relationship.

-:

00:22:14

I know there are many listeners to this podcast who are going through or

-:

00:22:19

will be going through a similar thing.

-:

00:22:21

If you were to reflect on what the last 13 years then of

-:

00:22:27

both your own, uh, evolution.

-:

00:22:34

as a co-parent and also what you see has worked best for Jonah, what would you say?

-:

00:22:44

Clearly each situation is different.

-:

00:22:47

But there was one thing that I was taught very early on.

-:

00:22:52

This person from whom I am divorcing is still and forever will be my son's father.

-:

00:23:00

And for the rest of my son's life how I speak, act, and feel silently

-:

00:23:07

within my own privacy of my own being about this person will impact how

-:

00:23:13

he relates to his future partners.

-:

00:23:19

Wow.

-:

00:23:22

This was very important to me.

-:

00:23:25

I, I can pat myself on the back, honestly, and say that I turned from being bitter,

-:

00:23:35

angry, wronged, ashamed to choice.

-:

00:23:46

I was going to choose how I think about this person.

-:

00:23:48

How I respect this person.

-:

00:23:50

How I honour this person.

-:

00:23:51

How I love this person.

-:

00:23:54

His dad was just here, and at the end of the trip we had a wonderful trip.

-:

00:23:58

Nothing, not, not even a ruffle.

-:

00:24:00

And at the end there was a little ruffle.

-:

00:24:03

It was very late and it was Sunday, and he was trying to get into a

-:

00:24:07

conversation with me about scheduling.

-:

00:24:10

I have very clear boundaries on my bedtime.

-:

00:24:12

It's my bedtime.

-:

00:24:14

I didn't speak about this.

-:

00:24:15

I just simply said we are going to solve all of this.

-:

00:24:18

I folded my hands just like this.

-:

00:24:20

We're going to solve all of this.

-:

00:24:22

I'm going to bed and it's going to be great.

-:

00:24:25

He was feeling totally disrespected, and I knew that, but I couldn't fix it.

-:

00:24:33

I could only stand my ground.

-:

00:24:36

Uh, in Zen it's called the upright cauldron.

-:

00:24:41

The upright cauldron is always

-:

00:24:42

I love that.

-:

00:24:44

Yes, the upright cauldron

-:

00:24:45

always beneficent.

-:

00:24:47

Always, always available.

-:

00:24:51

I walked away, figured it out within moments, went back, said,

-:

00:24:56

Oh, I, I think I figured it out.

-:

00:24:58

This is what we'll do.

-:

00:24:59

He was still going.

-:

00:25:01

He was ready.

-:

00:25:02

He was ready for a fight.

-:

00:25:03

And time was, he used to be.

-:

00:25:06

I would've totally gotten into it with him.

-:

00:25:08

He yelled, screamed, would've been so ugly.

-:

00:25:12

It's happened before.

-:

00:25:13

Probably on three occasions.

-:

00:25:16

This time I said, We are going to be great and all as well, and I wish you

-:

00:25:22

a very safe trip home and lots of love.

-:

00:25:26

And I walked away.

-:

00:25:27

And it was fine.

-:

00:25:29

Nothing more needed to be said.

-:

00:25:32

And I say this, I use this example, not just because it was so current,

-:

00:25:35

but because lots of times we don't, we, we feel like we need

-:

00:25:39

to make things perfectly right.

-:

00:25:42

Other times we feel like we need to be right.

-:

00:25:44

Other times we feel like we need to fix something.

-:

00:25:47

Lots of times we just need to be the upright cauldron.

-:

00:25:51

Hmm.

-:

00:25:52

Dignity and authenticity are the rule of the day.

-:

00:25:57

And if we can hold those two things in that moment, we are an

-:

00:26:05

example to other people who are.

-:

00:26:11

Uh, going through this.

-:

00:26:13

Yeah.

-:

00:26:13

There never needs to be a fight.

-:

00:26:15

There never needs to be anger or yelling.

-:

00:26:18

There is this person's opinion.

-:

00:26:21

There's this person's experience.

-:

00:26:24

And there are ways to talk between the two that change the flavour of

-:

00:26:29

the entire relationship going forward.

-:

00:26:32

I have learned, personally, I've learned, uh, nonviolent

-:

00:26:35

communication with Judith Lasseter.

-:

00:26:37

She and I have taught a class.

-:

00:26:40

ing another one soon in early:

-:

00:26:44

All of that is on my course, Uh, site course platform.

-:

00:26:49

It is of the utmost importance that we learn how to first, be in a space

-:

00:26:56

of giving ourselves empathy first.

-:

00:26:58

Like that was the first thing I did.

-:

00:26:59

He started raising his voice and I was like, How human of

-:

00:27:03

me to be scared right now?

-:

00:27:05

Wow.

-:

00:27:05

Reminds me of so many other times.

-:

00:27:08

So human.

-:

00:27:09

And then I, upon feeling that can look over at him, be like,

-:

00:27:12

Oh my God, he's so human.

-:

00:27:15

Hmm.

-:

00:27:16

He's just feeling unsure and uncertain.

-:

00:27:19

Of course, he's like getting his guard up and raising his voice a

-:

00:27:25

little bit and kind of agitated, of course, how human we both are.

-:

00:27:30

Let me just remove myself elegantly and we'll come back to

-:

00:27:36

it at a more appropriate time.

-:

00:27:38

Hmm.

-:

00:27:39

That moment changes it all and

-:

00:27:43

reminds us that we have a choice.

-:

00:27:46

So what I would say first is finally to get to my answer.

-:

00:27:50

No,

-:

00:27:50

this person.

-:

00:27:52

Respect this person deeply.

-:

00:27:54

Because this person is still the parent of your child.

-:

00:27:59

The most important you are teaching with every single

-:

00:28:02

gesture, eye roll, word, thought.

-:

00:28:05

You're teaching your child how to relate to their future partner

-:

00:28:08

and possibly their future partner from whom they will get divorced.

-:

00:28:13

It might happen.

-:

00:28:14

It's not ideal, but maybe it is because my life is actually ideal now.

-:

00:28:19

Ideal.

-:

00:28:20

We are co-parenting in a beautiful way.

-:

00:28:22

Jonah is with me.

-:

00:28:23

That makes me so happy he let that happen.

-:

00:28:27

Jonah has a beautiful stepfather who is just a ball of love, a heart on feet.

-:

00:28:36

So for me, it became the ideal situation and it might just be the

-:

00:28:41

case for you if you're watching and wondering or listening.

-:

00:28:46

Thank you.

-:

00:28:50

I believe from memory you decided to leave New York where you, you know,

-:

00:28:55

really spent your life, your adult life at the start of the pandemic.

-:

00:29:00

Was it around that time and uh, and then obviously stepped into that space of,

-:

00:29:06

um, homeschooling and all of the things that so many of us have been through

-:

00:29:10

over the last two and a half years.

-:

00:29:12

I would love to hear your thoughts on what you reflect on and feel about what

-:

00:29:17

this period has been for our children.

-:

00:29:21

As uh, someone who also had a teenager tween in that time as well

-:

00:29:28

as a primary school-aged child.

-:

00:29:31

You know, there are times where I have been deeply worried and saddened

-:

00:29:37

by the experiences that my children have had and to parent through that.

-:

00:29:42

That was incredibly confronting at times, but also brought a lot of gifts.

-:

00:29:47

I wonder when you reflect on the last few years as parenting

-:

00:29:51

Jonah and now seeing him 16.

-:

00:29:58

What do you think about what this generation has been through and

-:

00:30:01

how we as parents can support them?

-:

00:30:06

Well, I think they've actually become

-:

00:30:07

a lot more resilient for the most part.

-:

00:30:10

You know, I'm not, I'm not too afraid.

-:

00:30:14

I do see, I see some kids where in houses where there's not a lot of talking and

-:

00:30:23

there's not a lot of communication, I do see the stunted energy.

-:

00:30:32

I can sense it certain of his friends and certain of his friends.

-:

00:30:37

Everything is cool, everything is spoken about.

-:

00:30:39

Everything is out on the table.

-:

00:30:40

No problem.

-:

00:30:42

, uh, they know what they've been through.

-:

00:30:44

They know it was weird.

-:

00:30:45

They know it was hard.

-:

00:30:46

And they know it could happen again.

-:

00:30:50

They've solidified their friendships in such a way that helps them feel

-:

00:30:56

fortified against, uh, any particular possible future reoccurrence of

-:

00:31:04

this, which is highly possible.

-:

00:31:08

Um, but without sort of, , uh, pettiness or, or, um, revisiting,

-:

00:31:17

rehashing what's been.

-:

00:31:20

I feel like the kids who got their honest parents, um, speaking about

-:

00:31:28

their hardships and sharing with them what was difficult and still providing

-:

00:31:34

a boundary and also some freedom.

-:

00:31:37

Those kids are doing great.

-:

00:31:38

And I think if you're, if you're listening or watching and you're

-:

00:31:43

feeling like you are having a struggle because of that period of time, I would

-:

00:31:47

challenge you, uh, to say to yourself, Okay, so what's happening right now?

-:

00:31:54

Right now, today, Where can I be a system of support from my kid?

-:

00:32:01

Because I'm going to choose one of two things.

-:

00:32:03

I'm going to either stifle or support this person.

-:

00:32:11

These are my choices.

-:

00:32:13

I don't have three.

-:

00:32:14

I have two.

-:

00:32:17

Am I going to stifle this person?

-:

00:32:19

Am I going to support this person as they are right now today?

-:

00:32:22

Not who they were five minutes ago, not who they were five years ago.

-:

00:32:26

Who they are right now is already something different than five minutes ago.

-:

00:32:32

How do I support him or her, or them?

-:

00:32:38

Yeah, beautiful stifle of support.

-:

00:32:41

I have to give credit where credit is due.

-:

00:32:44

Rebecca Wolf wrote a really incredible book called All Of This.

-:

00:32:49

Um, she really wanted to get divorced and found out upon realising that this

-:

00:32:57

is what you needed to do, she found out that her husband was terminally ill

-:

00:33:02

and would be dead in four, five months.

-:

00:33:05

Oh

-:

00:33:06

And the book is that journey.

-:

00:33:08

I didn't do a spoil, It's not a spoiler alert because that's how the book begins.

-:

00:33:13

It's not how it ends.

-:

00:33:15

She offers this little bit, um, in, uh, a description of how her mother

-:

00:33:21

raised her as a teenager and, and, uh, offers further with detail.

-:

00:33:27

A moment where she was at a target with her mom, took a padded bra, put it into

-:

00:33:32

the cart, and her mother said nothing.

-:

00:33:36

Um, she recounts some of the things that her mother did say, supportive of her.

-:

00:33:41

Um, her mother let her wear lipstick in seventh grade.

-:

00:33:45

You know, she, there was always a feeling of support and she points out in this

-:

00:33:50

particular section of the book that she was supported and she had a choice

-:

00:33:54

to either stifle or support her kids.

-:

00:33:57

And that's the choice she made.

-:

00:33:59

There have been several turns in the road where things I cannot share

-:

00:34:03

because they're personal and they're Jonah's business, where I have chosen

-:

00:34:07

to support a choice that he was making that I, I didn't necessarily

-:

00:34:11

agree with, but I supported it.

-:

00:34:14

And what it's led to is a very emotionally, uh, agile and astute

-:

00:34:20

human being who is, you know, making a whole bunch of choices based on

-:

00:34:25

the fact that he had that freedom and that support for himself that

-:

00:34:30

maybe he wouldn't have made had I.

-:

00:34:33

You can't do that.

-:

00:34:34

Wow.

-:

00:34:35

You know,

-:

00:34:36

That's it.

-:

00:34:37

Fascinating.

-:

00:34:39

It is because immediately it's that, it's

-:

00:34:43

that daily choice as you've used the word choice so many times in our conversation,

-:

00:34:47

it's that daily choice between boundaries, but support the human growing here.

-:

00:34:57

And that is, I feel, when we talk about Perceptive Parenting, that what,

-:

00:35:01

that's what perceptive means to me.

-:

00:35:04

It's this, in this moment, what is needed?

-:

00:35:08

Is this a time where we hold that boundary?

-:

00:35:10

Is this a time where we support is, it's this perception of every tiny

-:

00:35:17

but powerful moment, is it not?

-:

00:35:19

it is.

-:

00:35:20

Uh, there was a moment that I'm recalling now.

-:

00:35:24

We were standing on the corner with a really good friend of mine, we

-:

00:35:27

watched a father and a daughter go by.

-:

00:35:30

They were walking pretty quickly.

-:

00:35:32

She maybe was like 12 or 13 big feet, skinny legs, really cute that stage.

-:

00:35:41

And she was walking in front of him, I believe.

-:

00:35:45

She dropped a dollar and he instantly not just chastise her, but shamed her.

-:

00:35:52

And he said, What a fuck did you drop that dollar?

-:

00:35:56

God.

-:

00:35:57

And I literally, I'm in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

-:

00:36:01

I, I got my whole New York opened up inside of me and I almost

-:

00:36:06

yelled out to my friend, grabbed my arm, she knew what was happening.

-:

00:36:09

She grabbed my arm and she stopped me.

-:

00:36:12

But what I would've said is, Dude, be nice human growing here.

-:

00:36:18

Yes, Yes.

-:

00:36:20

Dude, what the?

-:

00:36:23

It's a dollar, first of all.

-:

00:36:26

And if so, I played out in my head what I would've liked to have seen

-:

00:36:30

and what I would hope that maybe someday he would do differently.

-:

00:36:35

And I played it back for myself in the hopes that that would put this possibility

-:

00:36:39

into the field of possibilities for them.

-:

00:36:43

Um, she dropped the dollar and he would've just stopped silently upright cauldron.

-:

00:36:51

Watched her.

-:

00:36:52

She picked up the dollar and said, Thanks, honey, and moved on.

-:

00:36:55

Hmm.

-:

00:36:58

Yeah.

-:

00:37:01

May it be for all of them.

-:

00:37:03

Indeed.

-:

00:37:04

Yeah.

-:

00:37:07

Wow.

-:

00:37:10

Elena, thank you so much.

-:

00:37:12

I am so, and I genuinely mean, is so incredibly excited.

-:

00:37:18

About Perceptive Parenting.

-:

00:37:20

To learn who you have learned from because you always do that so beautifully.

-:

00:37:28

You always honour and acknowledge the teachers and

-:

00:37:30

the places where you've learned.

-:

00:37:32

And to then hear your own, as you said, missteps, the things

-:

00:37:36

you got right, the lessons.

-:

00:37:38

It's going to be a very, very powerful place for all of us to be.

-:

00:37:42

Yes, and I think, um, I chose to

-:

00:37:46

do this course as an audio offering only, there's no video component.

-:

00:37:51

You know, there'll be like a little introduction perhaps.

-:

00:37:54

Um, but I think it's important that we're just listening.

-:

00:37:57

There's not a visual to, you know, get all caught up in.

-:

00:38:02

It's just what I've learned, you know, mouth to ear.

-:

00:38:09

And, um, lastly, I think it's worth it to, uh, to know that the

-:

00:38:14

course is based upon the teachings of social and emotional learning.

-:

00:38:19

Mm-hmm.

-:

00:38:19

And it really isn't

-:

00:38:20

about your kids at all.

-:

00:38:21

It really is about you.

-:

00:38:24

It covers you getting more aware a lot of what we've talked about

-:

00:38:28

today, more aware of yourself.

-:

00:38:30

Uh, it talks about you becoming more aware of your kids' possible

-:

00:38:34

experience and helping your kid become more aware of themselves.

-:

00:38:39

And then becoming aware of the larger, uh, context of which you are a part and

-:

00:38:44

helping your kid become aware of the larger context of which they are a part.

-:

00:38:49

Um, we do this through the aphorisms of the Dow.

-:

00:38:53

Oh, I'm so excited.

-:

00:38:55

Yes.

-:

00:38:55

And I have three different, uh, interpretations, three

-:

00:38:58

different translations of the Dow.

-:

00:39:00

One is, uh, leadership oriented, one is mothering oriented and one is parenting

-:

00:39:04

oriented, and they're all exceptional.

-:

00:39:08

I sort of pepper in my own experiences and conversations that I've had

-:

00:39:12

with Jonah over the years as well.

-:

00:39:13

So I do think and hope and pray and trust that it will be of use.

-:

00:39:23

I know it will be.

-:

00:39:24

you so much.

-:

00:39:25

All the details will be in the show notes of when it's released, how you can

-:

00:39:29

join, and as you said, you can join at any time, but there'll be points every

-:

00:39:34

year where we come together and reflect and question and answer and share.

-:

00:39:39

Right, exactly.

-:

00:39:40

Wow.

-:

00:39:41

Thank you once again for just your words landing, just as they needed to.

-:

00:39:48

For me, and I know they will for everyone who's listening.

-:

00:39:50

I so appreciate you and your work in this world.

-:

00:39:54

Anytime and any, um, anytime you

-:

00:39:56

need a little boost, please don't hesitate to reach out personally.

-:

00:39:59

You know, for you, as you go through this journey, just know it is actually

-:

00:40:04

the ideal and you, for your, for both of you, for all of you actually.

-:

00:40:10

Yeah.

-:

00:40:10

Thank you.

-:

00:40:11

Thank you so much.

-:

00:40:13

You're welcome.

-:

00:40:18

As I said, one of the most inspiring women I know.

-:

00:40:23

And also the most generous, with her time, with her knowledge, with her support.

-:

00:40:34

Please have a look at Perceptive Parenting and join me in there.

-:

00:40:38

I will be there.

-:

00:40:40

I will be there every three months for these conversations.

-:

00:40:44

As I said to Elena after we stopped recording, it really is like a

-:

00:40:48

village, which I also have in my programs, a space where no one's

-:

00:40:54

the guru, no one's the expert.

-:

00:40:56

It's just women parents coming together, learning together, sharing what we've

-:

00:41:01

learned, sharing our missteps as Elena says, and sharing our wisdom as we go.

-:

00:41:07

Have a look at Perceptive Parenting and share this interview far and wide.

-:

00:41:12

And of course, let Elena and I both know on Instagram what you

-:

00:41:16

got out of this conversation.

-:

00:41:19

Until next week, thank you for being here, Satnam.

Follow