Being the Black Sheep - The Honestly Unfiltered Podcast

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Being the Black Sheep

Episode 7 • 7th November 2022 • The Honestly Unfiltered Podcast • Jeni Thomas

I'm Jeni Thomas and I'm her friend Ellie David we decided to create a podcast that embodies what you would

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talk about with your closest friends so sit back and relax and put your headphones in because you're listening

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to the honestly unfiltered podcast

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hello and welcome to the honestly unfiltered podcast today Elliot and I have with us Kathy

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Hennessey who is a licensed social worker she has a website called

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being the black sheep she is she's currently doing a study

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well actually I'm just gonna let her tell you more about it Kathy how are you yeah I'm stuttering because I'm nervous

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I'm the one that's supposed to be nervous

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um yeah so I've been doing this study for people who self-identify as being

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the black sheep of their family um so the first part of the study was like

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a survey I just asked a bunch of questions and um and that part's over I'm still accepting

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people to interview to kind of get more details about their experience

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being the black sheep so it's been very interesting to obviously there are

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patterns right like everybody knows who what the black sheep is um

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but there's not that I was looking for a book

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to help me with my process and couldn't find one and so that's what

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made me say well I'll just write one and okay so I'll get that you know I'll work

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on my own healing while hopefully helping other people in their process as

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well so thought in order to do that I should talk to a bunch of people okay

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so that's where that is now what's your what's your background

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in the field like how long have you been you know a therapist like what what's

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your so I've been practicing therapy for um about 14 years

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um and many of my clients identify as a black sheep of their family which is

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not necessarily surprising um and and me feeling like I was the black

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sheep of my family I finally you know decided that I wanted to look more into

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that and um so I couldn't help others and help myself in the

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process how do you I didn't how what what things made you identify as the

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black sheep of your family well I am the middle of three girls

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and um always felt like

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I was different from them and it was pointed out that I was different from them that I my mother used to say you

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know I marched to My Own Drum um and that was when she was being complementary

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but frequently that was annoying right

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um so you know it I was frequently put down or made fun of

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or um you know kind of spoken to in a way like

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get back in line you know and that just didn't feel like me right um

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so you know I bumbled along in my life making you know marching to My Own Drum and

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made some decisions that you know

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worked for me at the time but didn't wasn't well received by the family

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um and but here I am now you know having a

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thriving Psychotherapy practice so you know I and I think that I am a better therapist

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because of all of those experiences that definitely I had you know yeah

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so um now you have mentioned I mean you reached

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out to me for a reason um so tell me a little bit about yours your

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experience I or why Ellie and I have talked about this where

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we we feel it differently I I have two my my siblings my family's

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split my parents were divorced when I was young so I feel it on my mom's side because I

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have I have a brother on that side and my mother there and I feel it from My Father's Side my father has passed away

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20 years ago but I definitely feel it with um my half-siblings and my stepmother

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from that side so I there's two families and I don't really belong to either one

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of them I mean I do to a sense my brother from my my from my mother's and father for my

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father's first marriage we we are really close

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but only because he's witnessed he recognizes the abuse that has

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happened to me from all sides our mother is also a narcissist and I

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learned early on in therapy that my brother is a golden child and I'm a scapegoat so I kind of got it I kind of

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get it from from all angles there and it's a and you know there was an incident that

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happened and we did a podcast episode and really what happened was I was you know making a joke calling myself the

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black sheep of the family and I was looking for like a clip art or something to put into like our podcast art and I

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stumbled upon your website and the more I read it I was like well wow I am

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really the black sheep of the family and it's not the rebel the you know the

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purse the person causing all the problems it is someone like me who is really just minding their own business

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and is but but I'm perceived in this light that I'm the irresponsible one and

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I'm the outspoken one and I'm the Troublemaker maybe because I call

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everybody out on their crap but um really all I want to do is love

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everybody and and help them because I'm the one they also come to if they need something or if they're in trouble so

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it's it's a bit of you know a it's it's a bit of a tug of war and at

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the moment I am not speaking to one side of the family and in the last year my my

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brother he's moved to another state and my mom's moved to another state so it's really I really felt kind of abandoned

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and not really knowing my place in the last year hmm there's there's a mountain that's a

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that's a mouthful there it's a little bit to unpack right here yeah

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so well I I mean for me personally yeah I'm I'm still trying to kind of like

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figure it out but I agree with Jenny as far as the I'm very curious to hear your thoughts about split

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families and how that equates because honestly I feel like my parents also

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divorced and I always felt like the black sheep when it comes if you're grouping my father

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and his new family and I don't I don't have well my sisters and he does have

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step children um and I'm definitely the black sheep over there

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but with my mom and when we're my mom my stepdad and my sisters I believe it

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would be my sister my the middle sister I'm the oldest of three girls so

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and I also feel like it changed as we grew up so I'd like to see what you

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think about it because if I'm really being honest I think that when we were younger I wasn't the black

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sheep as much as I am now on both sides I mean honestly and kind of for the same

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reasons that Jenny's saying is you're the response you know I put up yeah and I put up boundaries which they

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don't like and I don't accept bad behavior anymore and I don't accept abuse and I you know I also don't you

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know we have Addiction in our family we have different things going on and believe me I have my own stuff but

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you know I'm very like look um I'm not responsible for you you're you know a 36 year old woman you know

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like like we have at some point we had because I feel like my siblings have a hard time one sister is not married with

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any children the other has one young child I was the first to have kids and

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be married and all those things and it's like I have this whole other life you know that I'm living as well with my

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husband and his family and you know but they are it's almost like they want to keep you in this childhood

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that we had all the you know it's like no we grow up and we we you know move

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move fast so it's I don't know I have a hard time really when I asked my husband he was

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immediate he's like I'm the black sheep of his family which totally makes sense

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but I'm very confused and again he's the most responsible one so yeah I yeah yeah

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yeah yeah it's interesting because I've you know I've called myself the black sheep like

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for as long as I can remember and my first husband had a hard time with that and and was like well that's such a

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Negative term I'm like yeah is that your point

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um and even you know my current husband because so I divorced and remarried has

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said the same but it's like well that's how I feel like I feel negative I feel yucky when getting

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together with the family like what are they gonna say this time how am I going to be treated and like just the tension

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and like you know so many things being pointed out that they would never point

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out to like their friends [Music] yeah so

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um yeah in my family there was um there's a lot of codependence

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and you know what I have noticed is that

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there is a lot of narcissism related to Black Sheep

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and I think you know when you think about narcissism and

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whoever it is that is the narcissist wants things their way well the black sheep was

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born and has different thinking like no why does it have to be your way why can't it be

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my way or her way or his way right like why does it always have to be your way you know and so I think that that

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questioning that well that Curiosity that willingness to

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explore other ways of doing things or other ways of being you know

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clashes with you know the narcissist thinking

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um so yeah and I think you know so when the

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pandemic happened I was besides the initial anxiety that all of

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us had right what is this right I was enjoying not having to get together with

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my family I was like

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wow this feels nice because there was all this like oh well we have to celebrate this holiday oh it's somebody

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like we always have to get together and it's like I would dread these occasions right so having the pandemic kind of

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really made me question what that feeling was as

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opposed to all the years before of just going well this is just the way it is and I'm the problem and so

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you know so now with this space I'm like am I the problem right you know and what

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can I do to heal myself um so yeah and and the codependence has you

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know I've seen it with with me wanting to make different choices like after high school or even quitting college and

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getting married young and um but then even seeing it with the Next Generation with my sister's kids

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growing up like they're supposed to yeah

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moving in with a boyfriend and joining the military was like it was this

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morning like somebody had died like

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they turned 18 they grew up they're supposed to play The Nest why is this

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shocking you know like so the codependents definitely runs

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um in the family and I think that there is some narcissism um specifically with my sister

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um you know I think I felt that I felt more pressure from my siblings

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than I did even from my parents which is interesting because I think you know a

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lot of the people that I've been talking to it's my mother treated me this way my father treated me this way or my mother was a narcissist my father was a

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narcissist where I felt like certainly it comes from the top but then it was the siblings like

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get back in line you know yeah I agree with that yeah yeah I definitely

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I can relate and I think that's what I'm trying to say even and you're saying it better but you know it's we finally got

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to a place where we're all adults and able to make our own because like you said it starts at the top so yeah

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and both of our parents my parents were narcissistic but at some point you get to make

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choices for yourself and the more I pull back because that's healthier for me I always call it

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detached with love you know I don't want to amputate I'm trying not to amputate

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but they're it's that that feeling of you gotta get in here and do what we're telling you to do or you're out of the

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club you know or or you don't love me or you don't you know and I'm not capable of that in a healthy

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way without it making me really sick you know it's like it's just what it is you

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know yeah I mean as you know like my mother obviously she

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my mother kept me close growing up I didn't really get to fly on my own until I was 17 or so that's really when I

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started going out with friends socially and it was

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just the end of the world I didn't go away to college in Boston

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um I was I got accepted to Boston College and I was real I really wanted to go my father wanted me to go he said

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I needed to get away from everything everyone here and my mother cried and she begged me not to go and I didn't but

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then once I you know I I became close with my girlfriends and it was never home it was your with that girl you know

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you don't do this you don't do that and it just became I noticed every every

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important friend in my life that I've ever had it's become is a very big issue with my mother that I love them more

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than her or or they're more important or you're even when I married my husband it was the same way and

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on my father's side he was an addict he was an alcoholic

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which is why my parents divorced and he remarried when I was in high

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school so and he passed away when I was 27 so he didn't he didn't tell his wife that he had kids

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when he got married so and we were really kind of kept apart I was

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kept apart my brother he was he was he was welcomed into their family but

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anytime I wanted to partake it was next time no this isn't a good time you know

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your brother can come this time but you'll come next time and I found out later from my sister that it was because

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they were worried I'd be like my mother so they kept me isolated from the family now to this day I truly believe that

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they all they all think and act like I am like my mother

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but it's a you know it's been years of my me tiptoeing around the way they

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treat me and the things that they say about me and the things that they bring up from childhood that I can't react

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because of the label well she's just like Diane so I I think this past year I pretty

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much reached a breaking point and I didn't handle it I didn't handle it in

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the best way I could have um but I was also dealing with someone in the family that has an alcohol

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problem and likes to blame it on everybody else

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um it's been a very complicated Dynamic trying to figure out where to fit in and such so

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um but really more of my problems have started to have occur with my mother and

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with that side of the family in the past year or two because I have like Ellie

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put up boundaries and said I'm not going to accept this this is not acceptable behavior I'm not going to tolerate that

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I will go months on end without speaking to my mother because I've had enough of her verbal abuse and as I said right now

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I'm not talking to my other side of the family because I've had enough of it so he's just him my brother

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my bro I you know I call my brother you know my brother for my with my mother he just kind of stays out of it he moved

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away he can't deal with any of it he just pretty much doesn't want to talk about it he shuts it all down so that

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has his way of coping with it all so it's a really it's a real healthy

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Dynamic it's a real healthy family over here well if that's what's working for him

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yeah right like we're all just trying to get through and figure out what a what

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do I need in this situation and so oh yeah you know your brother just said see

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ya and you know if that works for him then okay oh yeah Kathy what are your

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thoughts on because we Jenny and I have talked about this and I'd like your perspective the shoulds right like we we're just

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covered with shoulds all the time and something that I am a big proponent of

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at this point is you don't have to have your your family

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of origin in your life all the time so and sometimes not at all

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and I'm trying to like you said like trying to figure this out for myself

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help other people too in a way with the podcast where you know just because

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they're your brother or sister does not mean that you're obligated to have a relationship with them and that might be

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hurtful to them but you have to protect yourself so like that's my question I guess is is that healthy

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is it not is it dysfunctional is it just running away like I you know I feel like

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it's healthier so I think there's different

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levels of relationship right I think looking back at my situation there have

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been times when I felt like I was friends with my older sister and my younger sister at

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different points like are the alliances have stifted so many

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times um over the years um

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and where I'm kind of at with my sisters is that I'm not friends with either one

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of them I don't enjoy them I don't think they enjoy me

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but I do know that there's still love there we have

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whatever dysfunctional love it is I do know that

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if the [ __ ] hits the fan that we will be there for each other and

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some capacity well we don't have to socialize with each other we don't have to talk to each other all the time like

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I pretty much never talk to my siblings but it still feels

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weird to not do like holidays together you know

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um but as my family is growing I've got

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um so I have one son and two stepsons and the two of the

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guys are married now so now we've got two daughter-in-laws

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um so my family is growing and so and and now that my mother has passed

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like those holidays are gonna shift right because I'm now the matriarch of

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my family my mother right um so

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you know that is gonna dift so I won't have to necessarily

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spend the holidays I may choose to but like so I think that you know I'm doing

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what I feel comfortable with just like not being friends we don't have to chat

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we don't have to catch up I don't have to tell you or you don't have to tell me that this happened or that happened you

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know um but like other

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other people that I have spoken to have felt like it is healthy for them to have

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zero zero contact with anyone in their family

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um and some of that might be well even though I

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like this sibling that sibling is still too much in touch with that parent

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and so if I'm friends with this sibling all that all my stuff's gonna get back to that parent and so

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you know you know they have to cut them off um I'm not at a place where I feel like I

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need to sever ties um but just you know some healthy

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distance um and and even like

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just being in their present for so long I just silenced myself

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well I felt like I was frequently silenced like either by not being allowed to get

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a word in edgewise or several times was told Nobody needs Nobody wants to hear what

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you're saying like be quiet like nobody wants to hear that like several times

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that was said to me and I'm like okay so

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I was silenced and then I silenced myself but then I always had that pit in

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my stomach of why am I going why am I spending time with these people

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when I'm silenced like this isn't how I want to spend my time but there was those shits well it's a holiday you're

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supposed to you with your family right um

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but then I started like working on myself and figuring out well how can I

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be with them and not be silent and so started

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pushing back and saying that was rude that was hurtful

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not talking about that you know if they would ask like what's your problem I'm

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not here to talk about that I'm not here to fight yeah you know I'm here to have a nice day

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right you know like so I started having boundaries but also

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pushing back and not allowing like you said the abuse or the poor treatment

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um and I can do that by getting up and leaving which I haven't had to do yet

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um but um yeah I mean I think these shoulds come

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from the generations this is how things have always been done and therefore I should do this or I should behave this

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way or I should you know have this type of relationship but

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there are no shoulds right what feels healthy for you

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is what you should do it definitely yeah

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you know and if it's not feeling healthy for you if it's like you said if it's making you sick then why are you doing

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it right I can understand that about being silenced I mean I can't

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I've received you know a text message from a family member that told me to

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basically stop speaking about my family because I was unqualified to

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do so and that I had a different recollection of things that occurred and

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I didn't even say anything about that bad at that point I mean so I you know when my husband and I first

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got together and married it was funny because we both looked to each other and

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our families like what's wrong with you I don't get it in a sense because his family

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they all love each other they talk now and then here there if their father is sick or you know what

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not and there's four of them my husband's the oldest we would see them on holidays if we were

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able to but it wasn't an obligation it was more of a want on my husband's side

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whereas our family we were all up in each other's business and I would always

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look at him and be like I don't understand you don't talk to your brother every day you don't you know he

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would talk to his parents every day because he's always called his mom or called his dad to see how they are because he you know he's like that but

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I never understood that and he didn't understand the dynamic of why we were you know and vice versa so but I but I

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almost think his the way his family behaves is better because there's never a fight there's never an argument

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nobody's ever upset in that family they they see each other they on Christmas they they eat they hug they go home

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that's it it's no animosity no jealousy no it's I mean it's a healthy family and

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what do you do with that I was like I was like shocked when I first when we first got the color dependency isn't

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there right I think that's the difference between that Dynamic and you

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and I and our Dynamic with our families because I was the same way it was like you know we were just it's way too in

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each other's [ __ ] I mean it was like We Knew Too Much you know we and everybody

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felt like they had the right to an opinion and then you know

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our youngest sister is really struggling and has for many many years with her addiction

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and so then there's that it's it's who's gonna take care of her you should be

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doing this you should be doing that even though it's been we've all been taking turns with that's

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just one issue okay um but it it's yeah it's this you know

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just judgment I guess a lot of judgment a lot of I think way too involved I

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think I think that is very toxic to be way too involved you know I'm always preaching to my 18 year old

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I have three daughters the oldest one just had a baby and she's out of the house and then my middle one who's 18 is

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in college now and living on campus and but my youngest is 16 but I

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preach to all of them about balance because this is where I saw my mother

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did not and or my father help us learn that as children you know

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boundaries and balance because they didn't know it either I mean it's not you know they they didn't have the tools

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and I understand that and I have compassion for that but you know I know what happens when you're

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unbalanced now and to me it's like the key you know

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like too much or too little you know can be dangerous but definitely too much in my opinion of

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most of the things in my life and that's what relationships as well you know it's like

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you know I just I find that I'm with you Jenny I find it way more healthy

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to you know to just be even what you're describing Kathy of you

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know we don't have to be friends we're family and we can love each other we

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don't have to be overly involved in everything right right

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are there any I want to say Simeon what are some of the similarities that you find and you're the the people that

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you're are involved in your study addiction codependence narcissism somewhere in the family

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[Music] um there's well so

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there seems to be this like range of people who just

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felt a little different um maybe we're teased or just made

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different choices to all out like abuse

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um like horrific some horrific stories um

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and so but the similarities are you know

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feeling alone feeling um like less than

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at least when with the family right like in relation to the family like less than

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that there's something wrong that that the black sheep is the problem rather

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than the black sheep is the mirror right to the dysfunction

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um like I feel like the black sheep is the one that's the most awake

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again everyone else is just following along which you know makes sense when

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you think about white sheep and black sheep and how we characterize sheep they just follow

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right but the black sheep stands out and is different and yeah I think that's being able to see

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that dysfunction and calling it out and then getting that neck that backlash for

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calling it out yeah and you know and then and then having to

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like find their own tribe you know of supportive

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people and some people don't find that tribe and and you know some of I talked to a

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couple women and who um have just realized they are better off

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alone you know that the abuse was so bad that

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they can't really have any kind of relationship if it's friendship or romantic that they're just they could be

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a parent like I think these two women I had children and were doing a way

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different job than was done to them but have found that they just

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do better alone um which makes you know feel sad to me

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but for them right that it didn't make them feel sad like that's they just realized that about themselves they're

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better off alone they're functioning they're providing for themselves and their child so like I'm I

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would struggle being alone but they're not so

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um I like that you pointed out you have to find your tribe because that's something Jenny and I

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have talked quite a bit about and have similar feelings about is you know I'm a spiritual person I'm not

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a religious person but I believe in a higher power and you know

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that higher power has provided the the souls that I need in my life and

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you know because I do feel like and like you said I mean to each is his own but you know I do feel like you need some

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kind of community and when your parents and your siblings who yeah I think in

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all intents purposes they sh if it's functioning well and it's healthy that

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is what I think is intended throughout your life but that's just not the way

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Humanity works and you know I just I think that you know I've been able to

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find the people that I meet and that my children need and my husband you know

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and us as a family you know that we need to fill those spots

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which I'm grateful for you know but without it I would I am with you I would

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have a really hard time you know and I have there's been times where I didn't have that support

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you know fully so it is a hard spot to be in yeah

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I can understand that I mean I went you know I've had always I've always had a lot of friends but I've also had a lot

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of friends that weren't exactly great for me um that were friends with me because of

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things I could do for them or you know just whatever reason but in for the last 20

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years it's been you know my husband and son and I and everything but

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I'd reached a point in my life where I was just not going to let any more friends in I was just done and I did

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said to myself I don't need it I don't need any more friendships I'm tired of having my heart broken by people and

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it's just I'm just going to focus on my my family here the three of us and

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I went to work this place with Ellie's best friend Maria and

36:28

[Music] you know she would always invite me to places invite me to things and I you

36:33

know I'd say I was gonna go or and I'd not show up or I just blindly Decline and by golly those two they pushed their

36:41

way in and they made me fur in their tribe but in doing so

36:46

I mean it I mean I was 45 at the time or no I was like my early 40s time because

36:52

I'm 49 now but anyone doing so I like late in life I realized what it was like

36:57

to be unconditionally loved by someone by your friends and be accepted and to

37:03

have an argument or a squabble but that didn't mean you were never going to see that person

37:09

again or that they were going to hate you or not talk to you or disown you from their lives or you know verbally

37:15

abuse you it was you know conversations are had and there's give and take and

37:21

they just want to be in your presence because you make them laugh and you enjoy it they enjoy you and vice versa

37:26

so it took me years to get to that point too so I understand that oh and you know every time you say that

37:33

I want to like crying but you know and I learned I did learn that at a young age

37:41

um because of our friend Maria honestly in that friendship and I think honestly

37:47

with my husband as well um but I've never had a lot of friends as an adult you know I had a I've had

37:54

acquaintances and and kids that were friends with my kids parents and I knew you know but not close friendships you

38:01

know but um I knew enough to keep people out it was like like I I was you know

38:09

and my husband who's I'm super outgoing my husband's not so that's always kind of my job to like pull people in you

38:15

know and you know but I would try and I could see the red flags quick and I

38:23

think especially once I had you know my my oldest daughter I was very young by the time

38:28

um I had my second daughter you know it was like I had a whole that's really what did it it was like my husband and I

38:36

both really put up some serious like rules and boundaries for our family it was

38:42

like we recognized as parents really fully what had happened to us as

38:48

children not that it was you know horrific in any way but what we didn't

38:53

want to do with our children right and we were trying no matter what we were

38:58

pushing back like no we're not going to do what you want us to do

39:04

just because you want us to do it like we see issues here and we need to Shield our children from certain things

39:10

we didn't always do the best job you know but we've been trying and I think now they're even way better off I mean

39:18

they are so much they have way more tools than than we did you know so it's like I

39:25

see the cycle being broken I guess is what I'm trying to say and I love that and I've told my husband this so many

39:31

times we're we're brand new grandparents we have a seven month old granddaughter and I told him I'm like it's so

39:39

wonderful to think that we maybe didn't get what we needed and

39:44

and our kids all the time maybe but we get to be a totally new set of parents

39:50

and grandparents and how we parent our adult children which Jenny and I talk a

39:55

lot about because that's the new phase in our life and right it's really tricky and but we can do it way healthier so

40:03

it's like at least at least I'm grateful that we've at least recognized it so that

40:09

maybe we can do better moving forward right yeah I mean I definitely did things

40:15

differently raising my son um I do still think that I was

40:24

emotionally immature and so there are things that you know I cringe at I think

40:31

oh yeah um but I know I did other things

40:38

differently than how I was parenting um

40:43

and what's he saying you know better you do better right that's what I tell

40:48

myself all the time when I have those cringy intrusive thoughts I'm like oh okay you didn't know better now you do

40:55

so you do better right and my son was eight when his father and I

41:03

um split up and I both his father and I like remarried like a month apart oh wow

41:11

like within um a short time

41:17

but I swear my current husband

41:23

made me a better parent um by seeing not that his my son's or my ex

41:33

my ex was an excellent parent but because we weren't good

41:38

um I still felt like I was in a conditional relationship I still felt

41:44

less than with him um and so I think that feeling of less

41:50

than showed up you know in my marriage and my other friendships in what I was

41:58

willing to tolerate from other people um and but then when I you know moved to

42:06

this house and got friends in the neighborhood and I was like

42:12

oh I actually have friends that are like good you know they weren't takers or I

42:18

didn't feel less than that they saw my crazy and were like yeah well whatever you know you anyway right come on

42:27

right and then having my husband the like except

42:36

me just as I am flaws and all and would actually come out and say when I would

42:41

be feeling like depressed or down about something and

42:47

you know particularly in the beginning and crying and be like well this this is the real me like and he's like that's

42:55

what I love about you and I'm like what are you insane

43:00

as opposed to well yeah you know you need to get your [ __ ] together like yeah he accepted that this is part of

43:08

humanity and my humanity and so by having that

43:15

you know I I became a better person just being in his presence you know and then

43:21

you know obviously as a therapist doing my own work and helping other people you

43:27

know um has helped as well but

43:32

um you know I do feel bad in a way that I wasn't able to break a lot of the

43:39

things while my son was growing up but I think I broke enough and he is getting a

43:45

different parent now um that he's now like on a path to eventually become a parent

43:52

himself and which matters I mean it's never too late I think that's what her parents did wrong they gave up and just

44:00

I I see the guilt you know and I can have empathy for that now as a parent

44:05

you know and but no matter how guilty I would feel or ashamed of choices I made or

44:12

things I did or things I said I just refuse to give up you know so I think that's a great way

44:18

to look at it yeah my mother doesn't see her her mistakes she sometimes when in a

44:26

dark Quiet Place she'll say I should have done better or I did this

44:32

to you and that was horrible or it'll be you're so much I'll get a

44:40

you're so much of a better mother than I was I could never do all that you do I understand my mother was broken so I

44:49

try to have compassion for that I you know you know I've been obviously been through a lot of therapy and you

44:56

know I I've seen a trauma therapist I was seeing a trauma therapist last year and you know she helped me to

45:04

see things differently by you know has the hierarchy of needs and

45:12

looking at things that way I you know she she did assure me that I've broken the cycle which you know I

45:19

knew that already and my son and I have a completely different relationship than my mother and I did and I've tried to

45:25

Shield him from it he unfortunately he's witnessed it so he knows and and I don't

45:32

know how but at his age I mean he is 18 now but even when he was younger

45:37

he was he's able to compartmentalize it and say and say to her you shouldn't have done

45:45

that that was bad and then continue on loving her like it's it's nothing it's it's just and but I'm glad he can do

45:51

that but I do you know in his later teen years and

45:56

even early before that I I there were I used to limit the contact of how much alone time

46:03

they had together because I just she is he regards him like she does my

46:09

brother is another Golden Child and he can do no wrong in her eyes so I had

46:16

never had to worry about abuse but you know there was a lot of inappropriate things

46:21

Jenny do you feel like and maybe Kathy you can hit on this I don't know if

46:27

you're relating to our mom talk but um my mom will do the same thing she'll

46:33

admit wrongdoing she'll oh you're such a better parent I've heard that one many

46:39

times but I almost feel like she does it so that I will comfort her she does more

46:45

than own the behavior which again I have empathy for because

46:51

I'm I am I am codependent by Nature it's like I I revert back and and and and I

46:59

want to just Comfort when I know you're hurting you know as do I um and it's

47:04

part of that I'm sure you know the dysfunction you know period

47:10

you know I shouldn't feel like I need to comfort my mother it should be the other way around you know I mean about things

47:15

like that um but another one that I always heard and maybe this because I'm still trying

47:21

to figure out if I'm a Black Sheep but um I heard constantly you're so emotional

47:28

oh God you're so emotional so sensitive yeah you're too sensitive that one even

47:34

more you're you're too sensitive and I used to sew I would totally think

47:40

okay it's me I'm just freaking weird like I'm crazy or something and the older I got and especially in the last

47:46

like I'd say 10 years I'm like you know what no you gaslighter you're hurting me

47:52

you're doing [ __ ] to me right I'm appropriately to

47:57

responded I'm appropriately sensitive to your insensitivity but you're mean right

48:04

you know it was like it took me forever I think my kids have taught me some of that I mean these kids are oh sorry

48:12

that's my cat he just jumped on the table they they are picking up on this stuff

48:17

at a young age and you know but they'll Point things out to me like Mommy that's

48:23

gaslighting this is or like you know and I'm like oh God they're telling me

48:28

like awesome that they're so emotionally aware oh well I've been paying for

48:33

counseling for a while now this is not a one-man job I mean I'm working on things but I'm a

48:41

long way from finished so yeah my mother would never

48:48

admit she right I'm wondering if I should be making a blanket statement

48:55

I cannot remember let me qualify it I can't remember my mother

49:02

apologizing for how she parented

49:09

um and I didn't get compliments on how I parented

49:17

um so that part I I don't necessarily relate to guys

49:24

um but yeah she couldn't see some of the things

49:30

and she would bring up the same you know couple stories all the time and thought

49:35

that they were funny yeah um like she sat on my bed the night before

49:43

eighth grade trip going to Washington DC with my entire class for four days sat

49:50

on my bed crying thinking that I was going to get separated from

49:57

the group and get lost and she was terrified that I would be lost and

50:02

um Washington DC 8th grade whatever that is 13 14.

50:10

and and she would bring I don't know how many times she brought that up over the years and she doesn't see the

50:16

dysfunction in the fact that now you're passing your anxiety on to me

50:23

um and but also like you know she would

50:28

take us shopping as little kids and we're bored out of our minds or I

50:34

was born out of my mind and so I go find something to do I always like play in the you know like

50:40

the circle clothing racks I'd play inside of it and then she would walk away I didn't walk away she would walk

50:47

away and we would get separated so she's remembering when I'm like five six seven four jumping and thinking that I'm not

50:55

being attentive yeah right and she's the one that walked away and not wondering where her kid is

51:03

but it was me who got lost well

51:08

no you lost me for the kids shopping for hours that is

51:15

not entertaining to them yeah yeah that's I like that perspective

51:21

and you know so she would bring that up a lot and there was other stories that she would bring up and she could never

51:28

see her part in it you know like I quit college

51:35

I went went to college out of high school and was studying anthropology psychology

51:43

sociology and she'd be like I understand why you love that

51:49

um but could you do something that makes money because you're not going to make

51:55

any money with a bachelor's degree in Psychology which is not wrong

52:01

yeah right so now I've you know I'm this kid that didn't feel ready to go to

52:07

college in the first place but my choice was to stay at home and work at McDonald's the rest of my life right

52:14

join the Navy which she was not I am not joining in the Navy as uh and enlisted I

52:20

can join as an officer which of course you have to go to college for right and

52:25

so now I'm at College loving it and smashing those dreams and so I quit like

52:33

I didn't trust my I was immature enough that I didn't trust myself like

52:38

and so I quit and it took me 20 years to eventually get my bachelor's degree

52:46

um but you know she didn't see her part in that

52:51

she just saw I gave up yeah and rather than well you had a part

52:58

to play in that of like telling me I couldn't Trust

53:03

what was good for me right you know and now I'm doing what I wanted to do

53:09

way back in the first place yeah right uh but I wasn't confident enough because

53:15

of all you know there was so many examples of telling me that what I was thinking and

53:21

feeling was wrong yeah so you know I learned not to trust my feelings and

53:28

that you know again was part of you know how can I trust my instincts

53:34

when meeting and befriending people because they've always been wrong and

53:39

you know um so it really was finding those people

53:45

that liked all of me that really helps me mature right like

53:51

and get self-esteem gain self-esteem I mean right yeah

53:56

yeah yeah it's it's so

54:02

um you know like so much like

54:08

we're not these we're we're programmed every day with the interactions that we

54:14

have and that builds our filter that we see the world from and we see

54:21

ourselves um for us um and

54:27

I think it does take you know some maturity to then look at that

54:34

filter and go what can I do about this you know and and through therapy and and

54:40

finding people that love are crazy exactly right there yeah

54:46

right and going oh well maybe I am worthy maybe I'm not so bad maybe I've just

54:54

been around the wrong people all this time yeah yeah you know and that I think brings us back to what we're talking

55:00

about before what's healthy for us and is spending time with family or spending a lot of

55:07

time with family you know is that is that healthy for us right

55:13

you know can you do it on small doses you know or for some people they have to

55:19

just completely sever the ties and you know or what I'm trying to do is

55:24

just kind of learn to stand up for myself and have the boundaries and

55:29

point out the ways they're being mean or rude or you know not letting something

55:35

go um so that I can still have a connection

55:40

but on my terms yeah I like that connection yeah

55:47

relationship you know I think that's what yeah I want to maintain a connection but

55:54

yeah no interest in a relationship very well I'm very weary I'm very Leary

56:00

of relationships you know when I had this conversation with my one sister which I thought I was

56:08

making some Headway and it didn't end well but we're we're okay but

56:15

um I was trying to explain my anxiety because I I do suffer with anxiety

56:22

and um and it's I'm in that perimenopause stage of life and I know that's making

56:28

everything worse so I've gotten very protective of my peace and and being

56:35

careful about triggers you know and different things but I was trying to explain to her the boundary thing which

56:42

my one sister and my father especially who's a retired Navy SEAL are not fond

56:47

of right but I was explaining to her it's not

56:53

just about me not the way I think about it it's also about them because the one thing that

56:59

feels even worse to me which maybe this is the codependency again then them

57:05

hurting me is if I hurt them me too and I don't want to hurt anyone I I

57:11

don't want to be the cause of their suffering of their pain of their anxiety and I know if I allow certain

57:18

conversations to happen or too much involvement or whatever there's different things that I could be capable

57:25

of that so the boundaries there to protect me and them you know right it's like listen

57:31

this is for your own good as well you don't you don't want to light this fire like it's like let's let's keep

57:37

everything mass and calm right I mean boundaries are

57:44

boundaries are not meant to end the relationship

57:49

boundaries are meant to maintain the relationship at a healthy place

57:57

right and it's letting them know what is and isn't okay

58:06

giving them instructions kind of you know that if we're gonna maintain this

58:12

relationship or this connection this is what I will and won't be okay

58:18

with you know so it isn't like you know it's not an impenetrable wall

58:24

it's got doors and windows but there are some things that are just off

58:30

limits you know um and

58:36

and they're healthy but I think people that are still codependent or

58:42

narcissists or narcissistic

58:48

you're denying them access they have a hard time with that that's what I was hearing yeah

58:57

um but even like you know our thought that well I don't want to be causing them

59:03

pain because we know what that pain feels like yeah right so you know

59:11

it is interesting that despite the fact that we've been hurt so many times we're

59:17

still looking out for the people that hurt us but it's because we know what that hair feels like yeah which that's

59:23

you know it's like the kid that's bullied at school it creates empathy hopefully later you know the good side

59:30

of it anyway it can also go the other way but you know it can create that empathetic personality right well well

59:39

compassionate I guess I should say because they know what it feels like you had asked me earlier what is

59:47

um a similarity well something I have noticed is that the

59:54

people that I've spoken to are granted self-selected

:: 00:00

um and most so I have I've only spoken to women but I've had a lot of men fill out

:: 00:07

the survey um but the women that have agreed to have interviews so many if not all

:: 00:16

where more like impacts and so we kind of

:: 00:21

talked about well were they an empath before being treated negatively

:: 00:28

is that what made them different or did they become an empath because of the

:: 00:34

treatment and I think for a lot of us it was both it was that I was going to say

:: 00:40

it's different but then also because of that hurt they want to help other people

:: 00:45

they want to prevent other people from feeling pain you know and so many of

:: 00:51

these women that I spoke to they're in helping jobs and I know you're a nurse

:: 00:58

right you're helping I'm a CNA yeah I don't know

:: 01:04

um I'm a nurse's assistant yeah

:: 01:11

so you know it's it's just kind of an interesting Dynamic I mean it's one of

:: 01:17

the positives that comes out of this yeah right that they become the helpers

:: 01:22

they become the cycle Breakers and it's funny because all three of my daughters you know who are now in that

:: 01:28

phase of life to choose careers too want to be social workers one wants to be a teacher and I'm like

:: 01:35

um can anybody say I've been raised by an empath because and they are they all three of them just

:: 01:43

are naturally I I think are it's innately in them but you know yeah I

:: 01:50

think I've had enough awareness to try to especially with my younger two my oldest

:: 01:56

you know bless her heart it's I was I was this teenage mom you know it it took me a while to get my rhythm you know and

:: 02:02

become a really good mom to her because I don't feel like I was in the beginning but I did the best I could with what I

:: 02:10

had but you know I was able to gather enough tools and understanding about all

:: 02:15

of these things and I do credit my mom because even though she's broken and she you

:: 02:21

know it's dysfunctional she did make sure we got counseling

:: 02:27

um she was part of a 12-step program because she was an alcoholic in recovering and she exposed us to those

:: 02:35

things which I do think taught me a whole lot when I was young um so yeah it was helpful but they are

:: 02:42

very very empathic yeah and very altruistic and those are the the things that are

:: 02:49

important to them and that's the most what I'm the most proud of about them yeah

:: 02:54

and yes I've told them they're not gonna make any money

:: 03:06

I'm the opposite I'm like listen don't do anything because you want to make money

:: 03:12

do it because you love it and you'll never work a day in your life you know period look I'm a CNA okay I don't make

:: 03:18

money okay like but I love this job and you know as my kids got older and I'm

:: 03:23

getting older you know everybody will say well do you want to go back to school you want to go back to school don't you not really I love my job I am

:: 03:31

so good at it it fills my heart it is hard work but I love it and you know no I'm 42 years

:: 03:40

old I don't want to go back to school right now be like that's just not my shtick you know so certainly I and

:: 03:46

granted my husband is self-employed and does flooring so you know he's very busy

:: 03:52

he makes good money so I've got you know a little bit of leeway but I've told all

:: 03:57

three of them the only thing that I cared about was that they had some way to make some kind of money as women

:: 04:03

that's it you don't even have to go to college but you have to have a plan something

:: 04:08

but that's it for me

:: 04:16

so yeah well I am sure if we wanted to we could

:: 04:21

probably keep you another two hours picking your room but since we're over

:: 04:27

an hour we should probably wrap this up and maybe you can come back on again

:: 04:34

um after your your study is concluded and and your book is written and we'll tell

:: 04:40

everybody about it is there a timeline with any of that well

:: 04:47

um I'm still open to having more interviews but I am at a point where I

:: 04:54

think I'm going to start writing the book and like getting it organized and figuring out what that process is you

:: 05:02

know is it self-publishing is it you know whatever the other yeah the options are

:: 05:10

how does this one yeah and and even when thinking about this like you know I've I've had a couple workshops about you

:: 05:17

know therapists being writers and um you know you don't make any money and

:: 05:24

that's not my reason anyway right my reason is partly for me right and partly to help

:: 05:32

other people on their journey and if I can help even just one other person and I think so many people have just by

:: 05:38

participating and the study has helped them um but like having

:: 05:45

a book that goes yes this is me now what what do I do what are what are my

:: 05:51

options how how do I heal how do I feel good about who I am because we all have

:: 05:58

gifts you know and so if I can help people

:: 06:05

see that and find their tribe and figure out how much contact they have with the

:: 06:11

people that hurt them then yeah I don't need to make money off

:: 06:16

of it I just get the word out and get a resource for people is

:: 06:22

you know it's kind of like our podcast Jenny pretty much you know I mean it's

:: 06:27

definitely a labor of love I'll tell you that much but it's good it feels good if you reach

:: 06:33

even one person and give somebody that needed it so desperately some clarity you know I

:: 06:40

think what's better than that you know well everybody Kathy's website is

:: 06:47

beingtheblacksheep.com and you can visit it and find out more information there is also a link with all of her

:: 06:54

information social media on our website with the episode on this episode page thank you everybody for listening and

:: 07:01

thank you Kathy so much for being a part of our episode today thank you so much for having me this has been fun yes it

:: 07:08

is all right all right hopefully we'll talk again in the future hopefully yes

:: 07:13

definitely all right all right bye