Dave from Matador Arms joins hosts Kaylee and John to talk about what the federal brace rule did to a small firearms maker, and how Matador is pivoting to survive it. Matador builds 9mm PCCs that run a bufferless, forward-charging system and work with any AR9 lower, from Glock to Sig to CZ Scorpion magazines. The company started in Canada, and Dave and his partners bought it after the previous owners moved to Las Vegas and became U.S. citizens. Much of the early business was built around short-barreled, brace-equipped uppers, so when the brace rule landed it hit Matador's inventory and sales directly. Dave walks through the response: fast-tracking a 16-inch route and a 9mm bullpup that sidesteps NFA regulation, finishing a full lower that removes the AR9 compatibility variables, and pushing toward a complete lineup of guns and caliber changes.

Kaylee lays out the legal picture from GOA's side. A preliminary injunction is in place on the brace rule, and the House passed a House joint resolution in a bipartisan vote, which she argues blows a hole in the ATF's claim that it has authority to redefine items under the NFA. She and John return repeatedly to the same point: the ATF cannot write law, that is Congress's job, and a rule that turns roughly 40 million Americans into felons overnight is both unenforceable and unjust. They cover the Bruen and Heller decisions, the text-history-and-tradition standard, red flag laws as Fourth Amendment problems, and the way the NFA's 1930s tax was designed to price firearms out of reach for ordinary and lower-income buyers.

The conversation also gets into the business reality behind a small firearms brand. Dave shares how a payment processor and host (Shiffer Shop) skimmed and then held about $14,000 of Matador's funds, citing a right to hold a firearms company's money for six to thirteen months, which pushed Matador onto a new platform and eventually WordPress. He covers the 80% frame-and-receiver lawsuits that use public-disturbance law to target manufacturers, banks and card networks flagging firearms purchases, and the grind of testing thousands of rounds before a launch. He plugs Matador as a veteran owned and operated company out of San Antonio with a lifetime warranty, and the episode closes on the message that the silent majority is finally pushing back and GOA is winning cases.

Links

• matadorarms.com

Questions this episode answers

What did the federal brace rule do to a small firearms manufacturer like Matador Arms?

Much of Matador's early business was built around short-barreled, brace-equipped uppers, so the brace rule hit its inventory and sales directly. The company responded by fast-tracking a 16-inch route and a 9mm bullpup that sidesteps National Firearms Act (NFA) regulation.

What is a House joint resolution and why does it matter for the ATF's brace rule case?

The House passed a House joint resolution against the brace rule in a bipartisan vote. Gun Owners of America argues this undercuts the ATF's claim that it has authority to redefine items under the National Firearms Act, since that power belongs to Congress.

Can the ATF redefine what counts as a firearm or write its own laws?

The hosts argue it cannot. Writing law is Congress's job, not the ATF's, and a preliminary injunction is already in place on the brace rule while the case moves forward.

How is Matador Arms pivoting its products in response to the brace rule?

Matador is fast-tracking a 16-inch route and a 9mm bullpup that sidesteps NFA regulation, finishing a full lower that removes the AR9 compatibility variables, and pushing toward a complete lineup of guns and caliber changes.

What happened when Matador used a third-party payment processor and host for its website?

Dave says the processor and host skimmed and then held about $14,000 of Matador's funds, citing a right to hold a firearms company's money for six to thirteen months. That pushed Matador onto a new platform and eventually WordPress.

How were the original NFA laws designed to affect lower-income gun buyers?

The hosts explain that the National Firearms Act's 1930s tax was designed to price firearms out of reach for ordinary and lower-income buyers, putting legal ownership beyond what many people could afford.

What are the Bruen and Heller decisions and why do they matter for gun owners?

Bruen and Heller are Supreme Court decisions the hosts cover alongside the text-history-and-tradition standard used to judge gun laws. They frame how courts now weigh Second Amendment challenges to restrictions like the brace rule.

What does Matador Arms make and where is the company based?

Matador builds 9mm PCCs with a bufferless, forward-charging system that works with any AR9 lower, from Glock to Sig to CZ Scorpion magazines. It started in Canada and is now veteran owned and operated out of San Antonio, with a lifetime warranty.

Chapters

• 00:00 — Meet Dave and Matador Arms
• 00:16 — What Matador's 9mm PCC does
• 01:03 — How the brace rule hit the business
• 01:37 — Preliminary injunction and a long legal road
• 02:30 — The House joint resolution explained
• 04:46 — Turning 40 million owners into felons
• 06:56 — The case to repeal the NFA entirely
• 10:18 — NFA as a tax on poorer buyers
• 14:52 — Bruen, Heller and the Supreme Court
• 21:11 — 80% lawsuits and frame-and-receiver law
• 23:11 — Buying Matador and the Mat Nine
• 26:21 — Going 16-inch and a 9mm bullpup
• 36:03 — Payment processors holding the funds
• 45:54 — The silent majority pushes back
• 50:26 — Where to find Matador Arms

About the guest

Dave is an owner of Matador Arms, a firearms manufacturer he and his partners bought from the company's previous owners after pooling money with three others. Matador makes 9mm PCCs with a bufferless, forward-charging system that works with any AR9 lower. The company started in Canada and is now veteran owned and operated out of San Antonio. Dave is an FFL and has worked on the 80% and pistol side of the industry. The company has five owners, including Alex and Justin, the latter an overseas private military contractor.

Key quotes

"The entire premise that the ATF could define anything they want as a firearm is bizarre." — Dave

"Well, it's even the fact that the ATF doesn't have the ability to make laws." — Kaylee

"I think that the brace rule is great, but ultimately NFA removal should be the, the end goal." — Dave

"It took 27 words to get across the point that you have the right to keep and bear arms." — Kaylee

"Our website's matadorarms.com we're a veteran owned and operated company out of San Antonio." — Dave

"I hate to break it to you, but there is no your truth, my truth, There is the truth and the stats don't lie on this." — Kaylee

Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the Second.

I'm your host, Kayleigh.

And I'm John.

And today we're talking with Dave from Matador Arms.

Dave, how are you today?

Good.

Thanks for having me on.

Well, thank you for being here.

Dave, can you tell us a little bit about your backstory and Matador arms and everything?

So Matador arms, we make 9 millimeter PCCs.

They're bufferless systems so they work with folding stocks, forward charging system so the charging handle doesn't reciprocate and hit your hand.

It's reversible and it works with any AR9 lower.

So if you have Glock Mag, Sig, Colt CZ Scorpion, we're good to go.

Yeah, you put some voodoo magic in that thing.

It's cool square bolt.

So it's a little different than AR9.

It's a blowback system.

The recoil is not nearly as bad as like a typical AR9.

It's not an MP5, but it's not as bad as like an AR9.

Took a middle grab.

Yeah.

And being in that kind of short compact version because your upper is what, 10, 8 inches.

Eight inches, yeah.

The brace band really affected your guys business.

Can you kind of enlighten us on that?

Yeah, we started the company prior to that or we purchased the company from the previous owners and we started down this project with the brace rule.

Good to go.

And it definitely, definitely took a hit once the, the braces kind of went away.

So that's been frustrating and hopefully you guys knock this stuff down.

We'll see.

Yeah.

Very thankful for our legal team who has secured the preliminary injunction at this point.

Obviously things in the court take a significant amount of time.

And so one of the things that's important is that everyone kind of realizes it's much easier to fight these things before they get to this point.

Once you get into litigation, it's a long, tedious process.

There are still cases going on with bump stocks right now.

And so you're talking about longevity.

So it's so important.

Like when we talk about being a gun rights activist, when we talk about being a GOA member and reaching out to your representatives, reaching out to your, your elected official at the state level, at the federal level and, and having these communications, it's so important.

So I say that to say this so we were able to get past the House joint resolution in the House.

And the reason that that's important is because the atf, one of the main arguments in their case is that they have the authority to redefine whatever they need to under the NFA or under any act that has been passed.

And it's that redefining of things that have caused so much problems as of recent.

And so that House joint resolution was so important for the fact that their argument was clearly blown out of the water because the House of Representatives said, no, this, this wasn't congressional intent in that law at all.

You know, this is.

This is reach overreaching.

And so a lot of people were upset at GOA and others that were really fighting to get people to call and to get that passed because they're like, well, Biden will never sign it.

Well, you're right.

President Biden would have never signed it if got through the House.

And really, there was very little room for the Senate to actually pass it as well.

But the fact that the House passed it and in a bipartisan manner does clearly put a giant hole in the ATF's argument on that.

That's good.

You guys are filling me in.

I've been a little out of the loop on the legal sense.

Just because work's just been busy at times.

You just.

I put my nose down and get to it.

I didn't realize that you guys had gone to that point.

The entire premise that the ATF could define anything they want as a firearm is bizarre.

That I don't know why they went down this path.

It doesn't make any sense.

It's unpopular as all hell.

I mean, even the bump stock thing, which had very little public support, won all its cases so far.

I mean, it's going to be kind of solidified in law.

So I'm excited to see what you guys are able to do with something that a lot of people support.

You know.

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that.

That vote of confidence.

But even beyond that, I think that anytime the ATF or any government agency wants to make 40 million American citizens felons overnight is.

Is insanity.

It's bizarre that they would.

I don't even know how to explain it.

Why would they go that way?

How?

It doesn't even make sense when you lay it out on its face.

A, it's almost unenforceable, but B, yeah, you're just a normal gun owner.

We're more in the industry.

We're tied in more, you know, we're up to date on stuff.

I'm an ffl.

I get ATF letters on X, Y and Z.

But.

But Joe Schmoe, who's just bought a Sig Sauer rattler with a brace five years ago, he doesn't know a thing about it.

And he could just be driving to a range.

Boom, felon.

And they say, oh, we'll never do that.

It's like you do it all the time.

It's like, oh, we're making laws, but we're not actually gonna enforce them.

It's like, well then why go this direction?

Well, it's even the fact that the ATF doesn't have the ability to make laws.

Yeah, well, exactly.

That is Congress's job.

You're not the legislature you elected and you don't represent us.

And so it's so frustrating.

And I think that's why so many people have been like, whoa, whoa, wait.

And I think that's also why we're seeing such a massive increase in gun ownership.

Because people I think are starting to go, you know, I probably need to be able to defend myself and, and I probably should take some more personal responsibility and have more control over my own life.

And I think that while this is a massive attack, I do think that there are some positives and people not wanting to stay in that silent majority mentality.

It's definitely moved the buck forward.

It's bringing light to a lot of these just bizarre things that the ATF does.

Flip flopping on rules that they make, shooting themselves in the foot as well.

And ultimately I hope it brings forth to honestly get rid of the NFA entirely.

You know, I think that the brace rule is great, but ultimately NFA removal should be the, the end goal.

Right?

Well, and you brought up a good point that we here, this room, are in tune with the industry.

And you brought up the point of all these new gun owners.

We in this industry, we are probably the 10% who are in this microcosm of people that are really in tune with going on in the industry.

New gun launches, new product launches, new rulings, new everything.

There's a lot of people who are not in tune with this.

There's a lot of people who bought guns during the pandemic and during other times because they fear that they weren't going to be able to call somebody to come and save them.

Well, and think how many first time buyers honestly just have no idea what they just went to a gun store to buy something and it was on the shelf and the guy gave it to him.

They don't know that it's even a brace.

They don't know what's going on.

They just got what they got and they went home and it's sitting in their house and now they're a felon.

And they don't even know they're a felon.

I think there's another thing that is a layer that's not discussed very often in this and that's price point for so many people.

There was an appeal with the AR pistol because maybe you wanted something that was a little more substantial, but you didn't have the extra funds to get something that was exactly right.

Or you're smaller or more petite and so maybe having a full size rifle was harder.

Maybe you are someone with a disability who was just told, you know what, screw you.

There's so many different aspects to what made consumers purchase their firearm that have been completely overlooked because of just the insanity of 40 million just instant, overnight.

I mean, and the argument that it like increases lethality is a total joke.

I mean, any.

If it increased lethality, why doesn't the military have braces on things?

Why don't police officers have braces on things?

Because it's not.

So it's not more harmful.

Your gun doesn't become more dangerous or anything like that because it has a brace.

I mean, it's just the entire thing is just hopefully y' all guys kill it.

Right.

Well, and we.

Look, you mentioned the NFA and the NFA was designed to keep people.

The price of the tax stamp was the same price of a Thompson machine gun.

Yeah.

And it's designed to go well if they can't afford both and they're pushing people out.

Well, the NFA is stupid.

It needs to go away.

Just like what is the suppressor.

Suppressor helps quiet things.

We've talked about how OSHA approves suppressor use.

We talk about how Europe, it's.

It's one of those things you can buy on the shelf.

Right.

I mean, I wish I could.

You know, that's a business idea right there.

We should open a store where you can buy gas, guns and everything else in one.

You know, the atf, pills, it's all.

Yeah, well, you know, the ATF is more of a convenience store than it is an actual organization.

That's what it sounds like.

I'd rather go to the ATF to get my alcohol, tobacco and firearms all in one stop.

I think we've got a new business plan right there.

That's true.

But.

From its beginning, the NFA laws are predatory on.

Honestly, poor people that can't afford X, Y and Z suppressors should be, you know, able to be bought and put on every gun and improves your shooting experience.

You don't have to wear, you should still wear headphones and Stuff like that.

But every argument that was put forth for the initial NFA could easily be shot down today.

So I would love to see that buck go past the brace and keep charging forward.

Which just shows you how powerful the words in the Second Amendment are.

If you count up all of the words that have been used to whittle down the power of the Second Amendment.

You understand just how truly remarkable our founders were when they crafted the constitution.

It took 27 words to get across the point that you have the right to keep and bear arms, that you have the right to personal defense, that you have the right to stand up.

And all of that has taken millions and millions and millions of words to water down.

And they're continuing to want to do that.

When we have the higher ground, we have the Constitution that protects our rights.

It doesn't grant our rights.

One good thing with the new Supreme Court justice system or justices that we have now, they are looking at Second Amendment cases which, you know, the First Amendment is, I listened to some guy talking about it.

It's like weeds of laws.

I mean it's very well protected.

There's been just constant cases that get brought up and get nailed down.

So it's a very fortified law.

It's also a lot more popular than a Second Amendment case, which is if you have liberal justices, they don't really want to take it up because it's just not a winner, especially if the law is clear on what way it should lie.

So now they're starting to accept more cases.

I hope to continue to do this to fortify the Second Amendment with specific protections, basically additional protections.

Right, and you brought up a good point about how the NFA was designed to attack the lower class and it makes it unaffordable.

But now on top of that, they're looking to put this thousand percent tax law in as well.

You know, not only are they attacking the second Amendment, they're attacking maybe somebody who can't afford it.

They're looking at the middle class citizens and they're saying, no, you can't do this.

They don't want us to have the right to protect and, you know, keep and protect ourselves because they want to keep pricing us out of the market.

What's odd too is that, you know, no one's pointing that.

It's almost like a class issue, like where are all the little commies complaining that really only the rich are going to have guns?

You know, where's the support for them when we need them?

You know, but really, at the end of the day, that's, that's how they would like it.

They would like the rich and protected and the government to be armed and then everyone else unarmed.

They want their friends armed, not us, basically.

No, I mean, and there's so many examples of that.

When you see the Hollywood activist that is massively against personal firearm ownership when they're massively against the Second Amendment, but they still want their armed private security, they still want to be fully protected with firearms.

But it's that whole rules for thee but not for me mentality.

Oh, and they have guns.

Oh, yeah.

You know, we, I work with people, you know, I make guns.

I know people that make guns and I know plenty of celebrities that have guns and I know plenty of celebrities that, you know, are quite outspoken against it.

I know what guns they have in their safe.

I mean, it really is a bizarre mental gymnastics that they do.

Yeah, like Alec Baldwin.

I mean,.

So speaking about the Supreme Court, we've had the Buren decision, which is incredible, and we're seeing more of those Second Amendment cases and we're really hopefully looking forward to many, many, many more victories.

And that's so important because it wasn't that long ago.

And that was the first time that the federal government, from a court's perspective, have said, you know what, you actually do have the right to self defense.

So if you look at that, that time frame, it is so important that we get these landmark cases decided that we, that the history books see that the Second Amendment was in a sense saved because of a Supreme Court who as far as the culture is concerned, is taking a very unpopular opinion.

Now, we all know in the room that there is a massive amount of gun ownership and a massive amount of support in within the, quote, unquote, silent majority for the second Amendment community.

But it's kind of that squeaky wheel gets the oil mentality where the left believes that they own the narrative and that's just not accurate.

Well, we saw this just recently, you know, New Mexico, they came out, the governor came out, did something very against the Constitution.

We had even the left coming out and saying, oh you shouldn't do that.

No you, you can't do that.

But it took the silent majority and it has woken them up and they have been woken up and they are now starting to speak up.

And I love seeing that because we have been there and this, the silent majority has been there and just sitting there and just kind of taking it going all right, all right, all right now.

No, no, you now it's time you pushed us too far.

We're here, you know, we, we're done being treated like second class citizens in our own country.

And what I like about this beyond the grassroots swelling is how it's happening.

When you see the Biden land ammo ban comments and over 90% of them coming from Goa members.

When you're seeing acts like the protecting the right to keep and bear arms acts get passed.

Well not passed, but get introduced.

Excuse me.

And you see a groundswell of people commenting on Twitter, commenting on, on social media, calling the representatives, asking them to co sign, asking them to support.

Will it get signed by President Biden?

No, he's the same man who made a entire gun control office in the West Wing.

But it's getting people on record and showing them that there is a massive amount of support for the second Amendment.

That is what's so critical to moving the ball forward.

How many members are Goa?

Just out of curiosity?

We have over 2 million members and supporters.

Holy moly.

That is awesome.

That's a big deal.

I think the activist side of the conservative movement hasn't necessarily been there.

We're not naturally activist type people.

We like to go to work, raise our families and I think with every encroaching, it's death by a thousand cuts on the second Amendment.

More and more people are getting a lot more politically active, paying attention a lot more.

I think a lot of the, in the 80s and 60s and stuff like that, the complete removal of the Second Amendment wasn't really on the table by either party.

So then it was a negotiation between two people that the death by a thousand cuts wasn't in the picture.

I guess.

So it is between me and you if we're going to make a law.

I know that you respect the second amendment, I respect the second amendment.

Let's make a law that benefits everyone.

It's not the case anymore.

It's all or nothing.

So we have to fight everything, every law, every time.

It's a polarizing issue and it doesn't have to be.

Yeah, right.

You have a second Amendment right, whether you choose to exercise it or not, period.

It is a natural right.

It is protected by our constitution.

And we've lost, we've lost that in so many ways where people just want to vilify gun owners and act like we're the problem.

When the reality is mass shootings happen primarily and by an overwhelming majority in gun free zones.

The fact that we're not talking about that and that's not a part of the narrative that is allowed to be spoken by the mainstream media.

I hate to break it to you, but there is no your truth, my truth, There is the truth and the stats don't lie on this.

You could 3D print guns now.

So even debating, you know, like, oh, we're going to get all the guns off the streets, like, no, you're not.

You know, and I'd like to say that, you know, physical barricades and armed men have protected women and children since the dawn of time.

And it could be argued that's why we even grouped up in the first place, rather than just roaming the earth.

You know, and even if, you know, you somehow washed away every gun on the street, you know, if, what was that Parkland's name?

One of those school shooter kids.

Every gun's gone.

If he's driving to your kid's classroom right now, what are you going to want?

An armed guy and a physical barrier to protect your children.

Even if he didn't have a gun, he'd have a frigging katana or whatever, you know, a bomb or anything like that.

So I find it odd that we continue to not implement basic common sense to protect our kids.

You couldn't leave a million dollars cash on the ground like that unprotected.

It's against the law.

Yeah.

And I think even beyond that, it's the understanding that mass murder is still illegal.

Murder in general is still illegal.

Assault is still illegal.

And it's the refusal to punish the crime.

It is the refusal to understand that bad people do bad things and need to be properly punished for them.

That escaping people, because they're, they're focused on a tool, they're focused on an item instead of focusing on the true root of the problem.

We can't even identify the problem.

The first thing they tell anyone that's going through any sort of anything is first you have to understand there's a problem, identify it, and then you move on from it.

We can't even identify that there's a problem because we're too busy demonizing a tool.

It's Funny you brought up 3D printing guns.

The reason why I lean into that is because you personally have some experience with the other side of this industry, which is the frame and receiver side.

You've done a lot of lawsuits.

You've gone after this.

Can you give some insight into that and how that can affect the industry overall?

Where do I start?

You know, I've worked on the 80% side of the.

Of the industry for quite some time.

The laws that they use to get manufacturers on the 80% side right now are public disturbance laws.

So if you're launching fireworks at your house for days on end and annoying your neighbors have a right to sue you and say, hey, what the heck are you doing?

You're ruining my business, or whatever.

So that's the angle that they've been using lately to go after that side of the industry, and it'll bleed into the rest.

They're just kind of caught up now over there.

So it's something that people don't think about how that works, but it's a very effective way.

And when you lose those lawsuits, it could be anywhere from 15 million to 500 million.

I mean, it's.

Sky's the limit.

So you don't want to lose them.

Yeah, no.

Or you have to settle.

And that's ultimately what you have to do right now.

Now that we've.

We've.

We've talked the policy stuff and we have great conversation.

Let's talk a little bit more about Matador as a company.

How did Matador start?

And it's kind of like an interesting story how you guys kind of came into it and started.

I know that when I first met Matador became known of.

And then you guys kind of have taken over and really revamped some of the product lines.

So Alex and I started working for Matador Arms as consultants, and the owners were wanting to sell, and they gave us a good price.

And so we pooled our money together with three others and bought the company originally.

They have some SKS parts, a mag adapter which converts the AR15 to a 9 mil, and they had a Monco 9 upper, which we still have.

We revamped the Monco into the Mat nine.

It's.

I mean, honestly, every part's changed on it at this point, but it's originally supposed to be like a tweak or two, and here we are.

So we lightened it up a bit, changed the back end system, and took us about six months.

And we have the Mat nine We're working on a full lower as well that has fully ambi set up.

So we've been working fast and hard to develop new products around it.

So the interesting thing about that that you brought up that they started out with SKS parts and what people may not know is that Matador was originally out of Canada.

So what was the kind of the transition from, hey, we're taking this Canadian company and making it a US Based company.

They had done the legwork.

They had just moved to Las Vegas and gotten their citizenship via.

I have no idea how the laws work on that end.

But they were now U.S. citizens.

And so it was bon voyage, they made it.

They're living the American dream now.

That's awesome.

That's awesome.

Now this is interesting that you, because you guys bought the company, can you kind of go like, what was the mindset of going, I'm buying this brand that may not be established and I'm ready to from a marketing standpoint, you know, build this into a bigger company?

I guess.

Glutton for punishment, lots of stress.

But no, they had a good reputation.

You know, they weren't crooks.

They're good people.

So that was, you know, not an obstacle per se, growing it into what it is now because SKS stuff's real popular in Canada.

It's less popular here.

And kind of just leaving the SKS stuff.

We still sell it.

We're not going to, you know, leave them high and dry.

But you know, we're going the 9 mil direction fully.

We got a bullpup coming and then we'll do caliber changes up to 5.5, 6, 300 blackout and the rest.

So you're.

That's news to me.

So you guys are doing caliber changes and everything like that?

Yeah.

You know, what do you see coming for you guys in the future?

Like, is there a market for other calibers like you said?

You already said you're going to do caliber changes, but do you see like different designs, different uppers?

Are they all going to be like individually or is this an interchangeable system that'll be able to.

It'll be all of the above, really.

The bullpup's based on our upper.

So we have a 5 inch upper coming out that'll have a rail extension that we'll put on it to make it 16 with a 16 inch barrel so it doesn't look weird.

And that's what the bullpup upper will be the reason why we're going the 16 inch route is because of this brace stuff.

It's put a huge freeze on just buying short barreled anything.

And so you just have to pivot.

And a 16 inch barrel is not regulated by NFA anything.

It's also going to be a really sleek system.

There's not really a 9 mil specific bullpup out there.

So we'll be in our own space in, in that.

Right.

Obviously we're going to have the full PCCs.

We'll even do an SBR.

But yeah, the bullpup projects is from the pain and the flow that this.

Has caused and from a business standpoint, you know, you invested a lot into the shorter upper.

Yeah.

What did that look like to go?

Okay, well I've invested all this money to get my money back.

I have to now re tweak everything to be a 16 inch does that.

Is that just a pain in the.

Yeah.

Stressful to say the least.

I mean you have inventory, you know, you expect X amount of sales.

Then this rule hits you right in the gut and I'm just sitting on it and there's nothing, nothing we could do.

So we've got good vendors that are being, you know, good to us and allowing us to pay off this inventory as it goes out.

So very fortunate in that route.

Yeah, you know, we've talked to a couple different people about this and the brace firearms business side was like a billion dollar side of the industry.

And to just take that and go, yeah, you're good.

That takes the fun out.

Right?

All the fun stuff's had brace on it, honestly.

So that sucks.

It does.

So one of the things I don't think a lot of people get to see behind the curtain of is how the initial concept and the initial conversations are internally of.

So I have this idea and gets presented.

Walk us through what that conversation looks like internally and if you don't mind taking the listeners through the excitement that builds internally about a product launch.

So we have, you know, five owners.

So we at the beginning of the year we kind of make a roadmap basically and we argue over each individual product that's going to come out and we put it all in a PowerPoint and agree on, all right, we're going to make this product, this product, this product.

Then we go to Shot show and then we're like, all right, time for a new PowerPoint.

Because you get all these new ideas, everything changes.

So we're constantly tweaking, we try to stick to, we always say stick to the PowerPoint but, you know, we had to pivot.

We had always wanted to do a bullpup.

That was something that, you know, I personally am passionate about.

I like bullpups, so.

But it was later on the future project.

Let's finish out these, you know, eight inch barrels.

Let's go with a five.

Let's go with X, Y and Z.

And then brace law comes out.

It's like, all right, time for another meeting.

We need to fast forward this because of just the scare it puts on the market.

You know, people hear bad news quicker so they're even.

If the law is reversed tomorrow in entirety, more people will remember the fact that it went out for a little bit and they'll be freaked out by that than the fact that it's completely litigated out of its situation.

Now, I like Kaylee's question because I don't think a lot of people know this, but you're an owner of the company most of the time we talk to marketing people as the owner of your company.

When it comes to, let's just say a launch of a new product, what's that like?

It's fun, it's cool.

It's cool to see because it takes six months to a year to bring something to market.

So when you start getting all the parts in and you're banging them out all together, all the production parts come in.

I mean, it's very stressful because you can get samples in that are good or they come off a machine and then coding messes up.

So when everything's dialed in, you have all your parts on your production bench.

Everyone's building stuff together.

You got rock music playing.

I mean, it's a, it's a really awesome feeling to do that.

It's, it's super unique.

I'm super fortunate to do, to be able to do that.

But yeah, AC DC got family members in there, you're taking it out, shooting them or whatever it is, you know, down to the packaging.

I mean, there's so many moving parts that go into bringing something to market and challenging, but fun.

I can't imagine what it's like to have put all of the behind the scenes work into something to, to have it launch and in customer hands and the first reviews start coming in on the product.

Yeah, I don't know that I could sleep for a solid month just because, you know, you.

It's, it's essentially like a baby.

Like you have nurtured this from conception to final realization.

And I, I guess that's why I'm not in Your position, it's.

Yes, it is stressful.

We back our products up with good warranty.

We don't hassle our customers.

So if something's off, you know, your first launch of anything, you're going to find out all the kinks.

You know, we.

The AR9 setup is not as mil spec as like a typical AR15, so there's a lot more variables go in.

So, you know, oh, it'll work with any AR9.

Well, turns out there's a bunch of weird AR9s out there that you never knew existed.

And then, you know, the customer's like, what the heck?

I, you know, thought this would work.

And, you know, most of it could just be worked around.

Just needs a little file here, needs a bend here, and they're good to go.

We rarely get returns on stuff like that, so we're fortunate that a customer, AR9 customers, tend to know that there's some variables involved, so they're willing to work with us, and then if not, we'll take it back.

And I think I've done it one time, honestly.

Wow, that's awesome.

Yeah, that's quite the.

What does your tne look like?

Because there are so many.

You're right.

There are very much different variations of an AR9 lower.

What does that look like for you?

Because I've been on in your shoes when I was at Faxon testing a product.

I mean, when people think.

When I tell people, like, oh, yeah, we put 10,000 rounds to that pistol before we launched, and they're like, oh, you got to shoot 10,000 rounds.

No, it's not fun at all.

It's awful.

Terrible.

In the firearms industry, sometimes the joy of shooting can get robbed from you because you are shooting a lot, and loading lots and lots of rounds is not always the funnest thing to do.

So I, I worked on the pistol side and I'm on the PCC side.

What if I shoot for fun?

It's shotguns or long range, just as a result of how many rounds we put through.

But, I mean, you just have to test it.

We're very excited for our lower because that, that removes all the variables, basically.

So if someone is really down in the dumps and they cannot get their system working, we've got a solution.

This is a guaranteed fix.

So that, that, that's exciting.

Yeah, I know.

When I've talked to Alex about it, he's been really excited, and I've talked to a couple other people who are super excited about the full gun coming out with the lower and the upper together.

Where do you see Matador in the next five years?

Oh, just living on a yacht, you know.

Yeah, you know the dream.

No, I want a full lineup of.

Of guns.

I want PCCs, I want rifles, I want all the calibers.

We got a pretty slick pistol that we, you know, if we had the funds, we could make.

But, you know, we'll get there eventually.

But yeah, full lineup of guns.

Our other business partner, Justin, he works overseas as a contractor.

So we have a lot of overseas private military contract deals kind of lining up in the shoot already.

So I'd like to do a lot of military stuff, and that would be fun.

It's funny you bring up overseas what I know.

The PCC game in Europe is really big.

Is that something that you guys do?

Do you ship export a lot to Europe with those?

Not right now.

With the full pistol, we will.

And we're looking more towards Middle east for currently.

That's at least what's in the chute for that.

Which, to my surprise, I didn't know they were into them or the military's out there carry them, but they do.

Being that you guys do.

You have distributors, you have dealers, but a lot of your sales come direct.

What does that look like as a owner?

Manufacturer.

To deal with the financial side, all those other things that has to come with owning an e commerce business and being a manufacturer and having dealers and all the above.

You got to be careful who you work with.

Some of them will invite you in, let you host on their website, let you plug into their payment processors.

And then when you get going and this happened to us with Shiffer Shop, they knew we were Matador Arms.

We signed all the contracts with them and everything was good.

They were fully aware of what we were doing, which is parts and accessories.

We didn't have an FFL because we didn't sell a lower.

We couldn't get an FFL even if we wanted to, because we weren't intending on selling lowers at the time.

So they allowed us to host for about four months, and they were skimming orders off here and there.

200 Bucks here, 200 bucks there for suspicious activity.

And they would allow the order to go through, so we never noticed it.

And then eventually, for like a week, they just stole everything.

I mean, it was.

They took everything was suspicious.

I called and I was like, hey, why aren't these getting batched into our bank?

And I go, well, you guys are a firearms company.

We have a right to hold onto your funds for anywhere from six to 13 months.

So it was about 14 grand.

And so I was like, obviously like what are you talking about?

It ended up that it like by complaining about this, that we got flagged and they shut our website down too.

So we went from, you know, a week and a half's worth of sales getting nixed and then not having a website.

So we had to pivot.

We went to a different website that was like, oh yeah, come on in.

Same thing.

But they got us right out the gate.

Cause I had a support issue and the sales guy's like, come on in.

That's like gonna host us.

And then you go, I had a support issue trying to build a website like oh, your fines aren't coming, you can't do this.

So we had to migrate to another one.

So we're on WordPress right now.

They allow it and they've been good to us, so be careful.

And WooCommerce is like this weird in between thing where they do and they don't.

So somehow we're still like half Woocommerce that doesn't allow us on there.

But I don't even know how it all works to be honest.

But yeah, I've used WooCommerce and I've used BigCommerce and those.

But for people who may not understand, for a business that is just getting off the ground, $14,000 is a lot of money.

It was a good, that's a great week.

You know, for any business, you know, that was huge.

And we were just getting going so it was extremely painful and there's nothing you can do about it.

Six to 13 months, any payment process, they have grounds to hold it if they want.

And unfortunately we see a lot from the banking world and from just the E Commerce side we hear the horror stories.

We see what they're wanting to do with Congress, we see that they're wanting to flag firearms purchases as their own separate codes.

Discuss.

Discover was the first one to say yeah, we're going to do that.

You know we, we've seen even credit card processors giving full, full lists of, of people who have purchased a product to the government.

I think it, what was it?

American Express does that.

If you buy a firearms with American Express you get logged as like a, you get red flagged under their systems.

It's just, I mean it's such a, an incredible amount of overreach not only from the governmental side wanting this, but from the banking side and the commerce side actively participating and willfully growing just databases of people who own firearms.

Again, this is a natural Right.

And it should not be a thing.

And it hurts the individual gun owner, it hurts the industry, it hurts the entire second amendment community.

Yet it's so rarely talked about because I don't think people know how to communicate about it because it just is so ludicrous.

I also think that people need to understand you may not even like firearms, but the second they're done winning this battle, they're just going to move on to something else.

Not that those bureaucracies are going to go, ah, I guess I'll just go find another job now.

They're just going to move on to the next thing.

And the next thing.

So as they grow in size, they don't go anywhere.

They keep on moving on.

They find something else.

The surveillance state that was built to combat the Middle east is basically just now looking at us, which is just creepy.

Really at the end of the day.

Well, I mean you, you say they go after the second.

Okay, once they're done with the second, what's next?

The fourth or the first?

I mean they're going after all the.

Above, whatever the, the rage is.

You know, let, let's be, let's be honest.

Red flag laws are nothing but gun confiscation orders.

And they are a direct violation of not only your second amendment right, but your fourth Amendment right.

And what was it that we found that, that the Biden administration was essentially bribing states to pass red flag laws by providing special funding for their red flag laws.

I mean, this is something that is so targeted and these targeted aspects are, are going to have long term effects.

Hopefully we can get those things and I pray to God that we're able to get those things overturned in the court.

But those are long lasting effects because they're getting so smart and so cunning that most people don't even realize the attack is happening.

Well, you look at it and they preach, this is all for safety, this is all for your safety.

We've got your back.

But then what did we learn during COVID is that people didn't think that they would come in time to protect them.

They saw the rioting, they saw the looting and then they started, they go, the switch turned.

Oh, they're not here for me.

They're not going to protect, they're not going to be there in time.

The reality is, and more to your point, these mass murders are happening in gun free zones.

They're happening because we are soft targets and the criminals are not giving up their firearms.

And there's nothing to address the criminals for breaking the Law, guess what?

They already know they're breaking the law they're fully aware of is attacking everyday gun owners from exercising their natural rights.

And that's why you need a MAT nine.

Yeah, MAT nine.

There we go.

Carry MAT nine.

No, I mean the idea that you would be able to get these guns off the street in America is just not possible.

I mean both legally, physically, you have 3D printed guns, you could machine these things.

I mean it's not possible.

But even so, I mean there's still knife violence.

I mean I've been stabbed, I got stabbed in the heart, actually pierced my right ventricle.

I lost that knife fight.

I would never want to be in another one.

So you know, I would much rather have had a gun in that situation.

I just didn't.

And you know, luckily lucky to be alive really.

So yeah, knives will come next that you see it in Britain they're trying to ban knives.

It's like you're never going to do these things.

What are you doing?

Well, I think in addition to just the overreach and the culture and everything being a constant fight and a constant war is they're making the status quo, they're anti gun, they're making the status quo.

We're going after all of these things because they understand that at a certain point most people will just go, oh this is white noise, I hear this.

You're just fear mongering.

None of this is really going to happen when in reality each and every time this happens it has a massive amount of effect.

But they want you to grow apathetic.

They're counting on us as individual citizens and that, oh well, they're not.

You're not going to email your representative, you're not going to call your senator, you're not going to go to the polls and vote for someone who is going to protect your rights because they're trying to create such apathy.

Well, oh well, we've been defeated here, we've been defeated there.

Well we're going to just continue to, to take on these defeats.

They're wanting that to be the status quo.

And so when we as, as gun owners and as a two way community do the exact opposite of that and when we do call and when we do email and we are making those strides, we have a massive amount of success in changing that narrative.

I think that you guys have you fpc, it's been cool to see a little bit momentum shift in just like hey, we can beat these laws and we need to fight against this stuff and that just previously hasn't been there at all.

And so it's good to see the turnaround happening.

The, the reversal of just this apathy and kind of like, yeah, you know, it, what happens, happens, you know.

So I'm excited to see what comes.

I mean, the future is bright right now.

We're winning cases, so GOA is winning their cases.

Overall, we're doing great in the Supreme Court.

So I think it's a time to be excited and it's time to press the gas well.

And I think that has a lot to do with.

We saw a culture shift after the Bonstock ban where we were like, oh, there, we're going to give an inch.

We're going to give an inch.

We're going to give an inch, you know, because it'll come back to us.

It never does.

It never does.

And we saw that everybody's mind set change that.

The, the silent majority finally went.

Enough's enough.

This, this war on plastic by the atf, as Kaylee likes to say, is, is ridiculous.

They went after the, the bump stocks, they went after the braces, they went after the, the frame and receivers.

What's next?

They're going to go after 3D printing, or they're going to go after this or they're going to go after that.

And what they don't realize is that companies like Matador Arms and companies across the country rely on some of these things or have invested tons of money into it and they could take jobs and food and things away from people.

One of the things that is so important that we realize is that manufacturing your own firearms, upgrading your own firearms, understanding every component of your firearms, all of those things are as old, older than the Republic.

This is not a new concept.

And I think everyone is fearful of this term ghost gun.

And it, it's just, it's a, again, it's a fictional term made up by the left to fear monger and to demonize gun owners.

And so if you look at Gun Owners foundation, which is our sister organization, the slogan is Text, History and Tradition.

We've been suing on the basis of Text, History and Tradition since it was founded in 83.

And it was so exciting in the buring case, especially for that to be the standard that all other cases would, would apply to, is the text, history and tradition.

When you look at something like that, you have to understand the gravity of that tradition and that, that history of understanding intimately your firearm because it is an extension of yourself.

Well, even down to the sword.

I mean, like people have been decking out their weapons since prior to firearms.

I mean, it goes that far back.

The Bruin case was huge.

It's sad to see so many judges blatantly disregard it.

It is impressive.

I didn't realize how a judge really could just completely disregard codified law.

Yeah.

So they choose.

You know, that's been interesting to see, especially with this Bruin case, and see how many laws have kind of eked through that shouldn't really.

Yeah.

Well, I think it kind of goes back to, you know, you're saying, and you're taking an oath as a judge to uphold the Constitution of the United States, not to uphold your party lines or your party affiliations.

And the reality is the Second Amendment, the First Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, all of these things are so ingrained in our culture.

And that's what you swore the oath to uphold.

So anytime you see anyone go astray from that, it really.

I mean, in a sense, it just makes you lose faith in the system.

And so it's been so good to see the Supreme Court standing with gun owners in such a big way.

And it's not just the Supreme Court.

We've had some phenomenal wins and in.

In the district court and in the circuit court, and there's been some.

Some phenomenal AGs across the the US that have stood with gun owners in a really big way, too.

We've mentioned the Buring case a couple times.

So for those of you who might not know what it is, that was the Supreme Court case that challenged the law and ultimately overturned the law in New York that said you had to have proper cause in order to get a concealed carry license.

So you had to prove essentially that there was a threat on your life in order for a carry license to be issued to you.

And so the Supreme Court ruled that that was ludicrous and rightfully so.

And so that was one of the landmark cases that this Supreme Court has won for.

For gun owners everywhere.

So now that Kaylee's off her soapbox, and we love her for that,.

I'm sure it's.

It's.

It makes me feel.

Feel better.

Well, no, because you're really good at it, and that's why we love it.

But let's get this wrapped up.

We'll let Dave over here kind of talk about Matador.

I think we answered or asked a lot of questions about, you know, what it becomes to be, you know, becoming a manufacturer and everything else.

Is there anything that we miss?

And can you kind of plug Matador while we wrap up here?

Buy Matador Arms.

What's that?

Oh, sorry, no.

Our website's matadorarms.com we're a veteran owned and operated company out of San Antonio.

We back our products with a lifetime warranty.

They're a blast to shoot, they're fun to build and come check us out.

Where can they find you on socials?

Matadorarms I believe on Instagram Matador arms Facebook that with more confidence.

Yeah, Matador underscore arms on Instagram Matador arms on everything else regular yet to type it in on Instagram all the way through and yeah, that's, that's where we're at.

No, I appreciate you being on today.

I mean, thank you.

You've been a great friend to myself and others in the community and you guys have really knocked it out of the part with your new mat9.

And I'm excited to see the new stuff coming down the road here shortly or soon.

Hopefully really soon.

But yeah, thank you guys again for watching today.

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